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| Post Number: 71
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Madd Max 
Group: Members
Posts: 1345
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 17 2004,9:53 am |
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| Quote (Frustrated @ Oct. 15 2004,4:37:pm) | | Most minimum wage jobs are done by kids for a little spending money |
Maybe you are right Frustrated to a point, but in a slow economy as we are in now, people have to take theses jobs and a second and third job just to survive. There are people out there that are really struggling that could use help, much of the time they have small children to. Is it right for us to turn our backs on poor people and there children? I know you will say well they should not have had children, Hind site is 20/20 but the fact is the children are here, right here in Albert Lea and there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
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Heck, if crazy were a pre-existing condition, the GOP wouldn't be able to get insurance. James Carville
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| Post Number: 72
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 17 2004,2:46 pm |
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Why would you want to punish businesses by mandating how much they should pay? Is it the fault of Business that people make less than they would like?
What would happen if you raised the minimum wage to say, $15 an hour? Inflation would be rampant as businesses passed the costs on to consumers--for example--the price of cars, houses (or any other labor-intensive product) would double--and we would all be back in the same relative place.
Government wage controls have never worked anywhere they have been tried--remember the Nixon era? It is not the government's job to say what people are worth--only the marketplace makes that determination. The only people with a "horse in this race"--an interest--is the employer and the employee--everyone else should butt out.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 73
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Paul Harvey
Group: Members
Posts: 2778
Joined: Aug. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 17 2004,5:06 pm |
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So back in the early 1970's when the minimum wage was $1.65 an hour....that was wrong Jim? There really shouldn't have been a minimum wage then...
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~I love trolling n00bs and pwning assholes~
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| Post Number: 74
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 17 2004,6:18 pm |
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I don't know what your point is. Is it that the minimum wage isn't keeping up with inflation?
My point is that the the government mandating how much people should be paid is not only wrong, but a useless "feel-good" program pandering to a constituency. As several posters have pointed out--education makes the whole thing moot--acquire a skill, and there IS NO SUCH THING AS A MINIMUM WAGE. The idea that government can effectively tell people what they will earn--without consequences of loss of jobs--is ridiculous. Increased minimum wages have an inflationary effect on the whole economy.
Going back to the question of whether minimum wage earners are keeping up with inflation, see the chart, below. Here is the link to the site http://www.epionline.org/mw_statistics_annual.cfm
(edited: You'll have to click the link to go back to 1970, the chart will only paste since 1980)
As I read the chart, with the Earned income credit, minimum wage earners are earning the same money as in 1970 (about $7 an hour), and considerably better than in many intervening years. Very few years went ABOVE the $7 mark, in constant 2002 dollars.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 75
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Madd Max
Group: Members
Posts: 1345
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 17 2004,8:38 pm |
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So Jim is it right that a person should have to work two or three jobs to care for their family. I will dare say that a person that is doing this does not have Health Insurance either. Last I heard 45 million people do not have Health Insurance in the USA. I believe Minimal wage now is $5.15 an hour. A dollar and a half will bring it up to $6.65 I really don't think that they will be getting rich. I don’t see any owners of the Fast foods restrants on the welfare lines so I think that they can afford to pay a little more. Just for a minute Jim, think about the little children out there that have nothing. Think about the people that are living under the freeway bridges here. Think about the grandparents that are raising there grandchildren because the kids have lost there jobs and can not afford to care for them. Think about the workers that have lost their jobs and now there unemployment has run out before they were able to find a job and have no income coming in and are losing everything they have worked for. These things I am writing are going on right here in Albert Lea today. Jim don’t you have any compassing at all for your fellow man. Just for one minute try and look at the people that are falling through the cracks. Whether you like it or not they are out there. 
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Heck, if crazy were a pre-existing condition, the GOP wouldn't be able to get insurance. James Carville
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| Post Number: 76
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 18 2004,3:11 pm |
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Max--being opposed to the minimum wage doesn't mean you lack compassion--just that the concept of "minimum wage" is flawed--a "feel good" program that harms the people it purports to help. The point of my posts--and of several others--is that "minimum wage" is an artificial enhancement--for someone with skills, it is irrelevant, because those skills are in demand. For someone without skills, the minimum wage is a barrier--If they take a minimum wage job, they don't get welfare. To make it worth getting off welfare, they need to make more than the minimum wage--it means that the "bottom rung" of the job ladder has been removed.
| Quote | | I don’t see any owners of the Fast foods restrants on the welfare lines so I think that they can afford to pay a little more. |
It is true that many "minimum wage" earners start out in fast food. If "they" (the owners of fast food restarants) pay more, don't you suppose the price of your Happy Meal will go up? Result--more inflation, and the "minimum wage" must be adjusted again. The problem isn't mainly in fast food--as mentioned in the previous post, it is in labor-intensive items. Increase in "minimum wage" puts pressure on other wages--the price of anything that is labor-intesive (cars, houses, etc.) goes up. Manufacturers find it is easier to produce in other countries, and there is a net loss of American jobs. Look at the Textile industry--most clothes are now made overseas.
| Quote | | I believe Minimal wage now is $5.15 an hour. A dollar and a half will bring it up to $6.65 |
You missed the point of the chart and link provided. Ever since 1970, the minimum wage and earned income credit has been around $7 in constant dollars--more so now than in the last 10 years. Adding an extra $1.50 will take it up over $8.50 an hour--an all-time high.
Minimum wage hasn't really helped anywhere it has been tried, and has often been an obstruction to helping the very people it was designed to help. It is another reminder that the government can't really make anything better just because it SAYS so--only the marketplace sets a true value on a commodity. If you want to help people, they need to acquire marketable skills--and THAT is the place to help--leave the marketplace alone.
| Quote | | Think about the people that are living under the freeway bridges here |
Do you personally know of anyone living under bridges? If so, there is plenty of help available. If they won't come in of their own accord, point them out to a police officer--they should be checked for mental stability. I know that sounds cruel--but the truth is that there is no reason for anyone to be "homeless"--unless they choose to be.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 77
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 18 2004,4:41 pm |
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Just wanted to add one thing. The 45 million quoted as not being insured is a little decieving.
Its not that all of them arent offered insurance. I read about a couple that was married, both postal workers, combined income of 75,000 dollars. They are one of the 45 million, and many more like them that just dont want to pay for it.
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 78
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DrBombay
Group: Members
Posts: 1606
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 18 2004,7:03 pm |
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I think the number of uninsured is much higher. I agree Hoosier this may be the case, but there are many more people who are offered some type of insurance who can't afford it.
Look at the jobs that are out there to replace the manufacturing jobs. In Minnesota the avg. jobs pay atleast 25% less than the ones we lost. A large part of those jobs offered are only part-time and don't offer insurance.
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| Post Number: 79
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 18 2004,7:18 pm |
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Agreed, to bad its so dangerous in Iraq! We could go over there and work for Halliburton, make over 10,000 a month for driving a truck.
Speaking of jobs lost or gained, isnt it funny that most of the jobs Bush claims to have created in the past year are jobs like the one at Halliburton I mentioned. Most of them are in Iraq.
But what do we really get out of those jobs if the American tax payer is footing the bill?
I agree DrBombay, just wanted to make sure that people understood that the 45 million uncluded people that choose not to be insured. Unfortunatly, some are uninsured because they cant afford it. Those are the ones that should be counted as uninsured.
Others can afford it, but choose to spend their money in other ways. Thats fine, but those people shouldnt be crying that they dont have insurance. I only mention it because I read or seen on TV the story about the postal workers choosing not to be insured, then bitching about it.
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 80
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DrBombay
Group: Members
Posts: 1606
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2004,1:27 pm |
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I was just thinking about the privatization of everything. I don't think the majority of American people realize how big of a gig these private contractors got going in Iraq. Meanwhile the wives of the soldiers fighting there are having to rely on foodstamps to get by. Also, do ya think the Iraqi's are a little upset about this? They'd be happy to get $100/month for what the contractors are getting $10k/month to rebuild there own country. That's a big reason the insurgency is growing. Who could blame them, they have no jobs?
Funny you should mention that, because I was just thinking about looking up some info. on private contractors in Iraq and what kind of health ins. they have.
Also I read that much of the border patrol is no longer handled by the INS, it too is contracted out.
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