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| Post Number: 61
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repdan 
justdan
Group: Members
Posts: 649
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 13 2004,6:38 pm |
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Maxx, I looked at some of the AFL-CIO stuff, first, thanks for giving me another chance to show my moderate balance, looks like only 3 Republicans had a better record.
Second, do you really think it is possible that the differeces are as stark as shown by this or other such rankings? If they are, no wonder we can't get anything done.
FYI...I understand the Minnesota Chamber is not going to endorse me either since I was very vocal about their anti rural policies.
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carpe ductem.....remember we're all in this together..I'm pull'n for you.
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| Post Number: 62
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Madd Max
Group: Members
Posts: 1345
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 15 2004,1:16 pm |
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Well you are close repdan as I look at the AFL-CIO literature I see you are fifth last session on Labor issues with a 33% rating. But lifetime their are nine republicans that have a better voting record on labor issues then you do that are in the house now. In fact you are tied for tenth with Steve Sviggun at 29% of the time you side with labor people. I understand that you have done some good thing for labor but 29% in a working town is still low repdan. One question I do have for you is this. I noticed that you did not vote on a bill that would have raised the minimum wage in Minnesota up $1.50 and hour over two years. I understand that thing happen in live and every elected official will miss a vote every once in a while. What I would like to know is if you had been there, how would you have voted if this bill? Also what are your feeling about the minimum wage in Minnesota do you feel it is high enough or it needs to be raised? Or is it to high now? 
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Heck, if crazy were a pre-existing condition, the GOP wouldn't be able to get insurance. James Carville
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| Post Number: 63
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repdan
justdan
Group: Members
Posts: 649
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 15 2004,4:14 pm |
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I have voted for it in the past, I think their should be a tip credit so we don't have few restraunts going out of the breakfast business, but in general I have no problem with an increase, I would prefer a federal one, but not a big deal. Not sure who I missed the vote, but it happens, most of the votes I missed where when I was home when my wife had eye surgery.
You are confusing being on the side of working people with the politics of interst groups. They are 2 different things.
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carpe ductem.....remember we're all in this together..I'm pull'n for you.
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| Post Number: 64
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Frustrated
Group: Members
Posts: 226
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 15 2004,4:37 pm |
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Wrong answer, repdan. Raising the minimum wage does not help the average person as it only causes inflation, higher prices for services and loss of job opportunities for students. Most minimum wage jobs are done by kids for a little spending money - temporary employment. People need to be bright enough to realize that these are not meant to be careers.
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| Post Number: 65
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 15 2004,5:06 pm |
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The minimum wage law is another example of New Deal social activism. Like so many of the "we've got to do something" laws of the era--its time (if there ever was one) has passed. Even the Supreme Court found against a Federal minimum wage--but allowed State Minimum wages. The 14th Amendment--Due process, prohibits the government from interfering with contracts. | Quote | | Minimum Wage Laws .--The theory that a law prescribing minimum wages for women and children violates due process by impairing freedom of contract was finally discarded in 1937. 107 The modern theory of the Court, particularly when labor is the beneficiary of legislation, was stated by Justice Douglas for a majority of the Court, in the following terms: ''Our recent decisions make plain that we do not sit as a superlegislature to weigh the wisdom of legislation nor to decide whether the policy which it expresses offends the public welfare. The legislative power has limits. . . . But the state legislatures have constitutional authority to experiment with new techniques; they are entitled to their own standard of the public welfare; they may within extremely broad limits control practices in the business-labor field, so long as specific constitutional prohibitions are not violated and so long as conflicts with valid and controlling federal laws are avoided.'' |
Link http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment14/03.html
In good times, the minimum wage isn't needed--if you have any skills at all, you will be paid more. In bad times, the marginalized workers--school kids, entry-level workers, etc. are priced out of a job. Government should concentrate on improved education--not artificial enforcement of bad law.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 66
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The Advocate
Group: Members
Posts: 116
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 15 2004,6:26 pm |
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Big disagreement Jim, huge. There has to be some protection for workers. It does not price school kids out of jobs, these jobs are plentyful. People have to have some type of protection or most businesses would not even pay that. Just don't get me started on corporate greed. And by the by, I am having one heck of a time deciding between Bush and Kerry. I'm Independent in voting for the best person. I voted Bush 4 years ago but I have to say it is difficult to see our economy in such a state and only God above knows what we should do in foreign affairs. I have to say, I was not impressed by Kerry concerning Congressional hearings about Viet Nam many years ago.
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| Post Number: 67
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DrBombay
Group: Members
Posts: 1606
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 15 2004,7:16 pm |
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I had the arguement with RepDan on a thread months ago, as I recall RepDan was against raising the min. wage because of the working family tax credit. It hasn't been raised since 97! I think if we were to look at the overall jobs available and the number of unskilled workers out there all over the country, we'd find that people have to take these jobs to make a go of it. Working students to help with tuition they've been priced out of, and struggling families. Especially with the big loss in Manufacturing jobs.
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| Post Number: 68
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 15 2004,8:21 pm |
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Advocate--good discussion to have. There is a lot of material out there--a Google search on Minimum Wage showed over 3,000,000 items. You can find and support nearly any position there. Here is one: | Quote | The recent 1996 hike in the minimum wage to $5.15 an hour had a similar effect: unemployment among black male teenagers jumped from 37 to 41 percent almost immediately, at a time when the economy was doing well for almost everyone else. That’s why Milton Friedman, the Nobel Prize winning economist, once called the minimum wage "the most anti-black law on the books."
Data from President Clinton’s own labor department show that at least 20,000 jobs were eliminated by the 1996 hike. The Employment Policies Institute calculates that the real job loss was closer to 128,000.
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Link to full article http://www.mackinac.org/article.asp?ID=356
Rather than simply copy Google articles, let's discuss specific issues | Quote | | People have to have some type of protection or most businesses would not even pay that. |
In my business, I've never paid minimum wage--I have to pay more to get quality employees--the part-time help gets $9.50 an hour for janitorial services. What is the common lament from employers? "Jobs go begging for want of qualified employees". Not just someone to "fill a slot"--people that can be counted on to do their job responsibly. Most employers I know would gladly pay more money to get qualified employees--they live with the old axiom "You pay peanuts--you get monkeys!" As mentioned earlier--most businesses are not affected by minimum wage. I DO object, however, to the government interfering in a wage contract--as though by simply DECREEING that a job is worth so much, it will be so. If there is no underlying value in the labor--that the employee is WORTH WHAT IS BEING PAID--you could set the minimum wage anywhere you want--business just won't hire.
I usually ask the question of those who advocate government fiat--like setting a minimum wage--"If raising the minimum wage $1 is good--WHY NOT MAKE IT $2--OR EVEN $3? Why not make it $10 an hour? The answer usually is "because nobody would pay the higher wage". If that is the case, is raising the wage by a smaller amount effective? Will it lead to more or less employment? If the respondent is thinking, they may reply "it would lead to inflation". This is also true.
Government has no place in interfering with wages--that is a contract between the individual (or his/her representative, the labor union) and the employer. Government has as little right to determine minimum wage as it has to set maximum wages--government lets sports stars, entertainers, etc. be paid what the market thinks they are worth.
Raising minimum wages leads to other problems--exporting of jobs. Pay $8 minimum wage, and more and more illegals will cross the border for those jobs--and more and more companies will be taking their business outside the U.S.
Taken to its ultimate conclusion, government would have the power to dictate the maximum and minimum payment for each job. That's roughly equivalent to the thoughts of another famous economist--"Each according to his abilities, each according to his needs"--Karl Marx
Like so many well-intentioned issues, there are UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES to every government action--consequences that usually have the opposite effect of the program the government initiated.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 69
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repdan
justdan
Group: Members
Posts: 649
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 16 2004,10:12 pm |
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It's not worth the fight, if you really want to help low income people you do it with the working family tax credit. If you put in a tip credit, there would be very few people who would gain by an increase. If you increase the wage high enought, you lose jobs. So maybe the question should be how high?
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carpe ductem.....remember we're all in this together..I'm pull'n for you.
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| Post Number: 70
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Oct. 17 2004,9:27 am |
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I agree with Jim on this one.
How about the government, state and national, just do what they promise every election and fully fund education?
We are helping to build schools in all sorts of undeveloped nations, all the while we have schools falling apart in our own backyards.
Better education, equals better jobs. 
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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