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| Post Number: 51
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Liberal 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,6:51 am |
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it would appear that Brist was doing what the District expected of him--confiscating cigarettes from a minor, and reporting the alcohol violation to the police (he apparently took no direct action--it was the police that required the breathalizer tests).
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Why would anyone ever have to lay a hand on a student to confiscate a pack of smokes? All a teacher needs to do is say to the student, "Hey, give up the smokes or I'll go over there and get that cop that's hassling those kids with the breathalyzer and he'll search you and take them away."
If you want the teachers playing cop then why do we bother supplying a cop to the school or at school events?
About the Mayors husband being selected as Citizen of the year, my fifth grade daughter was picked to be a member of the citizenship committee this year. It's a group of 5th graders, (a couple from each of the 4 schools) that meets once a month for 4-5 months after school to learn about being a good citizen. At the end of the school year they pick the citizen of the year. And although I don't doubt a 5th graders potential to do a a lot of things, I kind of doubt their ability to decide the "Citizen of the Year".
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 52
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,7:37 am |
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| Quote (jimhanson @ Feb. 18 2004,12:27:pm) | | Civil liberties apply to EVERYBODY--those students and spectators participating or watching school sports have a reasonable expectation--a RIGHT--to not being bothered by cursing, cigarette smoking, drinking minors. |
I checked the Constitution twice and I can't find anywhere in it where the founding fathers gave us a right to be protected from cursing, cigarette smoking, drinking minors. Maybe they just forgot that one?
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 53
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Tiger
Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,8:49 am |
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I too have to agree with Jim and irisheyes on this issue. Mr. Tarzan, here's a question, if your kid was getting the tar beat out of them and a teacher was nearby, would you want the teacher to "physically" remove the other student from your child or would you want the teacher to go get a more authoritative figure?
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| Post Number: 54
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,10:32 am |
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I'm having a hard time putting across my point--teachers aren't ASKING for this--there's nothing but trouble in it for them. On the other hand, they can not NOT enforce the rules set down by the school district. Do them a favor by asking the District to remove the rules.
As far as "hitting too close to home"--this has no bearing (other than for discussion) on me. We have no kids--and my wife has never hit a kid--so there's no history there. She has been nominated (and been a finalist several times) for Teacher of the Year.
I'm serious when I say "if you don't like the laws, change them". We attempted to work with the County on Rule 19--when that proved unworkable, we worked to change it. Too many people just accept things "because that's just the way they are".
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 55
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,10:46 am |
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| Quote | | I checked the Constitution twice and I can't find anywhere in it where the founding fathers gave us a right to be protected from cursing, cigarette smoking, drinking minors. Maybe they just forgot that one? |
Good point--I can't find a provision for government involvement in Watershed rights, reservoirs, irrigation projects, allowing for gun registration, building permits, income tax, OSHA, Homeland Security, unfunded Federal mandates, or laws against spitting on the street. There certainly isn't anything providing for the myriad regulations set forth by the government without being passed by a deliberative body--like the ADA laws.
It is the "activist courts" that have allowed for this "interpretation" of the Constitution. I'll agree with you--let's go back to a strict interpretation of the Constitution. The framers of the Constitution FEARED big government--that's why they included checks and balances, and the tenth amendment--the powers not SPECIFICALLY provided fo the Federal government would be reserved for the States themselves. This isn't to say that we would be stuck in the late 18th century--just that if the government wanted to take more power, they would have to pass the idea by the elected representatives, and the States as well. No more creating an agency like OSHA or ADA--totally without rules--and allowing them to write their own laws without having the law passed by a deliberative body.
What say--are you in? 
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 56
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parent
Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,11:26 am |
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Yes i agree with Jim on this issue as well. If a child is getting "the tar kicked out of him" yes a teacher should move in and help. But that was not the case in this issue. This kid did nothing wrong he was inocent and even if he was guilty it was because of a swear word. What my point is the teachers should help when they are fighting but if it comes down to a kid saying one word and getting pushed around by a teacher that is not right. All im trying to say is that if a teacher is going to use Physical Force it better be for a good reason. Who knows what will happen next time and I Know that if this happened to my child I would not just be standing around not doing anything about it. I think that if it was your child you would have a totally different perspective on this. Excuse me if im wrong
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| Post Number: 57
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,12:17 pm |
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| Quote | | I've seen him chase kids down the hall who had drugs they were about to flush, but I never saw him do anything out of line. |
But, chasing a kid down the hall is out of line! How do you know the kid had drugs and that he wasn't just running because he thought the teacher was going to molest him or violate his civil rights by illegally searching him?
I think Jim is smart enough to understand that everyone here agrees that a teacher has a responsibility to stop a fight and that they are expected to protect the students from immediate danger. What most are saying is that they are not hired to be law enforcement officers. We hired another group of people to do that stuff.
I think that most of us that disagree with you are saying believe that a student has a right not to be touched by any teacher unless it is to protect that student or another person. And searching anyone for a pack of smokes or chasing someone down a hallway to commit an illegal search is just wrong.
And I agree completly with the other parents that have said it better not ever happen to my kid. Even though I doubt I will ever have to worry about that because both my girls seem to be a bit of an apple polisher(they must get that from their mom)
If we treat students like convicted felons and we don't give them every protection afforded all Americans by the constitution then how can we expect them to grow up to respect the constitution?
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 58
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irisheyes
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 3040
Joined: Oct. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,12:36 pm |
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| Quote (Liberal @ Feb. 19 2004,12:17:pm) | | How do you know the kid had drugs and that he wasn't just running because he thought the teacher was going to molest him or violate his civil rights by illegally searching him? |
I know because the student was my friend, and I knew that he had drugs on him, which is why he was running to flush them.
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You know it's going to be a bad day when you cross thread the cap on the toothpaste.
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| Post Number: 59
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,12:52 pm |
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Nobody's saying the teachers are ASKING to take this on. If this is a big problem, have the school district remove the language--just as we asked the County Board to remove Rule 19. I'm sure the teachers won't be fighting to retain the responsibility.
Several people have mentioned "reporting this to the police". This brings up the prospect of police stationed in every school. Is THIS what we want?
I stated before, the school is a microcosm of "real-world" life after graduation for these kids. Kids instinctively know that a cop can't be everywhere--so what good would having a cop in school accomplish? I ask the question--NOT rhetorically--IF a kid was doing something wrong (cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, violence, threats)--would you rather have a TEACHER talk to the kid, or an ARMED COP (with a possible charge involved)? I don't know--I don't have kids--that's why I'm asking. I believe I'd rather have a teacher handle the problem, unless it becomes violent. Teachers are less confrontational, they are better attuned to kids attitudes and needs, they are usually able to "work it out" rather than be confrontational like a cop, and it doesn't show up on a kids record.
Finally, what does having a cop in each school tell our kids? Those of us "of a certain (old) age" remember when government was not the nursemaid for all of society's ills. In the past, if your neighbor's dog got into your garbage, you took care of the problem yourself--you talked to your neighbor about it. Today, people tend to "call the cops" to adjudicate the most petty differences, leading to the "need" for more cops (and judges, AND COURTROOMS, and Jailers) , and an escalation of hostilities. MUCH better if people just worked out the petty things among themselves.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 60
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MrTarzan
Group: Members
Posts: 564
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,12:52 pm |
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Tiger go back and read my posts, I clearly said they do have the right to seperate a fight, as well as pulling them out of a fire, or from in front of a car, something that can save a life or avoid injury. Other than that, call a cop. If it is two kids verbally arguing, you may Tell them to go to the office, or if they refuse you tell them to leave the property. If they refuse you do not drag them off the grounds, you call a cop.
Jim I a with you on the reducing government, public schools are not in the constitution either, nor are many other public entities that exist. So while you are eliminating other groups, don't forget Dist 241.
Now on a more reasonable note, people are entitled in a free society to create schools and boards to govern them, as well as other agencies, it still does not change the fact we do not expect the Mayor to pull us over, or shoot it out with armed suspects. Working for the government does not make you any kind of an enforcer. Our military are even prohibited from being law enforcement within the county. It does not mean they cannot tackle a purse snatcher if he runs by, it means they don't have to, and neither does a teacher, even on school grounds.
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Be not simply good, be good for something-Henry David Thoreau
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