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| Post Number: 41
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jimhanson 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 18 2004,12:27 pm |
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Like Irisheyes, once the "facts" stated turn out not to be true--I am skeptical about the rest.
You can't win--takes the cigarettes away--people get down on him. Gives them back--supplying to a minor. TEN kids are "forced to take breathalizer tests"--then it was 6. By whom? Brist? The police? The District holds teachers responsible for enforcing its rules--then apparently doesn't back them. The public decrees that it is illegal for minors to smoke or drink--then doesn't back enforcement. Is it any wonder so few people want to become teachers?
Public schools have become a microcosm of today's society--full of conflicting interests--sending mixed messages. Is it any wonder that there is explosive growth and better academic achievement in private or parochial schools--even compared to "free" schools? Some may think that private or parochial schools are "elitist"--I would argue that public schools are spiraling down due to "free thinkers" that we have seen here. Private or parachial schools are ONLY better because they MAINTAIN A STANDARD--everyone knows what is expected of them--everyone knows that with civil liberties, they have civic responsibilities. Does that leave the cursing, cigarette smoking, alcohol drinking minors "behind"? YES--always has.
I'm all for civil liberties, but with civil liberties comes civil responsibilities. Civil liberties apply to EVERYBODY--those students and spectators participating or watching school sports have a reasonable expectation--a RIGHT--to not being bothered by cursing, cigarette smoking, drinking minors.
If the public WANTS this kind of behavior--get rid of the charge to the people you ask to enforce the law. If the public doesn't like the law--change it!
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 42
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MrTarzan
Group: Members
Posts: 564
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 18 2004,2:52 pm |
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No one I know, except the spouse of a teacher in the public school system would argue that a cop and a teacher are near the same thing. Spooky. I don't want teachers hired to enforce anything through any means except expulsion and suspension, not grabbing anyone unless to seperate fighters. Call the cops period for miscreants. That is way beyond the scope of a teacher, and I will bet you money the school rules say that the teacher cannot do it.
I won't argue with you about the public school system. I agree. Give out vouchers so that it is no longer a economic monopoly and I will be happy to send my kids to private school. Unfortunately I cannot afford both.
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Be not simply good, be good for something-Henry David Thoreau
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| Post Number: 43
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 18 2004,4:57 pm |
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Not equating cops and teachers except to say that unlike the rest of us, they don't have the choice of ignoring a violation. If they did, and something DID happen, the governmental agency AND the person would be liable. Kind of like Gabe's refusal to pay overtime in Wisconsin. The local jailer was reporting to work, when he witnessed a car crash right in front of the courthouse. He stopped to render first aid, and somebody ran into the courthouse to get the on-duty deputies. As people do, the on-duty deputies kidded the coming-on duty jailers that "we got overtime, and you didn't". The jailers asked to be paid for the 20 minutes they spent before they punched in.
Gabe replied "they were acting as private citizens", and refused to pay them. The case went all the way to a hearing in Eau Claire, where the jailers request was upheld. The court ruled that, unlike a private citizen, a public person can NOT refuse to do a part of his job (can you imagine the hue and cry if the jailer had walked by the car crash, saying "Sorry, I'm not on duty yet"). 
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 44
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 18 2004,5:18 pm |
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The court ruled that, unlike a private citizen, a public person can NOT refuse to do a part of his job
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You don't really believe that enforcing the law is part of a teachers job do you? Teachers have a responsibilty to see that the school district rules are followed but I doubt there is anything in their job description about enforcing the law.
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 45
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 18 2004,5:56 pm |
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No, not saying that at all--but if a school teacher DIDN'T enforce the rules, they would be censured (but being government employees, what are they going to do, fire them?). Worse yet--imagine what would happen if the kid with alcohol ended up in an accident--and the teacher KNEW it and didn't take action.
I'm sure most teachers would be happy to have someone else take the responsibility from them--why doesn't someone start a petition to have the school board remove the prohibition on cursing, smoking, and drinking by minors? Kids can do what they want, and teachers will have no responsibility.
What's that you say, you wouldn't want to go to an event where the kids run the show (the inmates run the asylum)? Neither would I.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 46
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 18 2004,6:40 pm |
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why doesn't someone start a petition to have the school board remove the prohibition on cursing, smoking, and drinking by minors?
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Nobody suggested changing the rules or that the rules weren't fair. 
I only said that this school district needs to pay closer attention to students and parents complaints and I don't want teachers enforcing the law(anymore than I want the cops teaching my kids math)
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 47
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MrTarzan
Group: Members
Posts: 564
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 18 2004,6:46 pm |
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Wow jimhanson, I really respect your ideas and postings normally, but I think you are maybe too close to the subject here. We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think you can find a quote where anyone said let the kids do what they want (unless you dig it up from somewhere that minnow was goofing as usual, I don't really think he should teach  ). What I am saying, and I read others agree with is that teachers are not cops and have limitations on them as to what actions they can take, and they should have those limits. I went to high school in a large inner city school, 3,500 plus students with many minority gangs and white kids were even the majority. Teachers were absolutely prohibited from touching kids for their own safety, one they might get stabbed or shot or worse, and they almost definitly would be sued, because that is what disadvantaged kids do. They try to get money from the system.
Here it is different, part of why I have lived here for the last decade and a half. The kids here are not rough, or trouble. Sure you have a few out of control, but even that is mostly harmless acting up that they will outgrow. Youth leaders have no problem intimidating them and therefore making them vulnerable to abuse. Pastor's can't grab them, scoutmaster's and other youth leaders can't grab them, teachers should not be able to grab them either. Cops are paid for that, not teachers, and they should not be. Someone want to grab kids, get into law enforcement or youth corrections. I would say that I bet that Dist 241 has a written rule prohibiting it or they would be open to legal action when it happened, but after learning even more about rule 19 on this forum, nothing would surprise me. They might have a rule here that teachers can mace them, or hit them with tazers and I guess I would not be shocked (no pun intended) after seeing our local leaders single handedly trying to suspend the constitution.
Again, I normally agree with what you say, I am open minded about many things and I have lived a happy long life. I have always voted for the man, not the party, and my voting record is 50/50 democrat and republican, with the exception of the occasional independent, so I think I can say I am fair, but I will never agree with you on this, so I am pretty much done with it.
However, I can add no teacher ever better grab my child or I will pursue the issue everyway I can, regardless of cost and consequence, period. Call me, or the cops, suspend or expel, I will deal with the kid, don't be putting your hands on them or the "public authority" will regret it if they are not in law enforcement. I will bet more parents feel the way I do, not the way you do, so the chance of liability for physical action is high, and I would say it should be avoided at all costs.
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Be not simply good, be good for something-Henry David Thoreau
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| Post Number: 48
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rosebudinal
Group: Members
Posts: 303
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 18 2004,9:08 pm |
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I hate to be a wet noodle, but, I think it would be great if someone would post a wonderful story about a positive thing that one of the nominated teachers did for your child.
I know that there were ones who influenced me. And one of them, Marion Drescher, was named Teacher of the year a few years back. She helped me through a tough time in my life as a 7th grader, when a friend of mine was murdered. I still think of her and her quiet way of watching over me in the months after this tragedy occured.
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| Post Number: 49
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MrTarzan
Group: Members
Posts: 564
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 18 2004,10:54 pm |
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That is not being a wet noodle rosebudinal, it is taking a thread called teacher of the year and discussing how they pick them like the thread started when posted. What a great idea. I too had teachers make the biggest impacts in my life. There was the one that knew I had a messed up home life that invited me to scouts which kept me focused and gave me a great male role models. There was another that convinced me to try for a scholarship that my family thought I could not get, and I got it. Many teachers helped me out and I am was very lucky. Yeah, I had the one that actually broke a yardstick on my head, and one that loved to use a paddle with holes in it (back then you could get away with that stuff, part of why I disagree with physical contact), but the majority of teachers that I got were great and powerful influences in my life. How do they choose the teacher of the year here? I don't have a clue, in my school district there was a mailing sent to every house and students and their parents each had a place on the form to input. Of course it was a big school district with 9 high schools, so I guess that was the only way, and here it is probably a much simpler thing to do. Anyone out there know how they pick them? I realize the original poster was upset and really was just asking that question rhetorically, but it is a great question. Is it fair? Or is it like the Mayor's spouse being Citizen of the Year? You would think he would not have been eligible. Kinda shocked me. But maybe he deserved it too. 
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Be not simply good, be good for something-Henry David Thoreau
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| Post Number: 50
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irisheyes
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 3040
Joined: Oct. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 19 2004,12:19 am |
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I'd have to agree with jimhanson on this one. From the post's I read he's saying part of a teacher's job is enforcing the rules, not law's. I think the disagreement here is by putting school rules, and public laws in the same catagory, which should be more clear. If its only something like kids swearing, or being in the hall without a pass during class, then why not let the teacher's handle it. That's how I would interpret it.
Sorry to interrupt your positive stories. I have a habit of getting off the thread's topic, why quit now. 
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You know it's going to be a bad day when you cross thread the cap on the toothpaste.
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