Topic: Teacher of the Year Candidates
started by: guest
Posted by guest on Feb. 02 2004,7:04 pm
How did Todd Brist manage to get nominated for TOY? If you did a survey you wouldn't find one student who likes him or who 
would nominate him. He is rude, boring and disrespectful. On the other hand if you did a survey on students who thought Mr. fiscus was an outstanding teacher you wouldn't find one that would say he wasn't, go figure, how do they pick them anyway? It would be nice if the students could have imput in the process.
Posted by minnow on Feb. 02 2004,8:12 pm
I got a feeling kids would love da Minnow as a teacher...LOL 
Posted by Tiger on Feb. 03 2004,8:46 am
Kids can have a say, many of them do not take the oppurtunity. Anyone can nominate a teacher for Teacher of the Year. (parents, colleagues, students etc.)
Posted by guest on Feb. 05 2004,11:39 pm
Are you kidding me on Brist. He is a great teacher and I don't know who likes him or not, but students respect him.
Posted by carebear on Feb. 13 2004,6:47 pm
Are you kidding me? I'd like to report his disrespectful behavior at all of the hockey games this year, not to mention in the classroom, not only do students have to fear getting in a fight with another student, innocent students have to fear by a TEACHER! He grabbed a kid by the coat, whom he accused of swearing, WHICH HE was INNOCENT of, tried dragging his out of the arena, this guy must be banned, are they paying him out there? Another game he searched a kid and took cigs out of his pocket, OMG he does not have the authority to do this, yet again, at another game a student had alcohol in his pop and he had the cops make about 10 kids take a breathalizer, unbelievable! MY CHILD WILL NOT BE IN HIS CLASSROOM! Wake up Dist. 241! There must be 0 tolerance for this! He needs his head examined!
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 13 2004,7:14 pm
I think this would best be served by calling administration or contacting PTSA, not spreading rumors on the bulletin board.
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 13 2004,9:35 pm
Oh wait. There IS no PTSA. Silly me.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 14 2004,12:50 am
Let the minnow teach!
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 14 2004,12:01 pm
| Quote |
| He grabbed a kid by the coat, whom he accused of swearing, WHICH HE was INNOCENT of, tried dragging his out of the arena, this guy must be banned, are they paying him out there? Another game he searched a kid and took cigs out of his pocket, OMG he does not have the authority to do this, yet again, at another game a student had alcohol in his pop and he had the cops make about 10 kids take a breathalizer, unbelievable! |
I doubt he accosted the kids for no good reason--he must have heard the kid, or seen the cigarettes, or had reason to suspect alcohol in the soda. Sounds like he was enforcing the rules the District laid down--maybe THAT'S why he was nominated for teacher of the year. If you want swearing, cigarette smoking, alcohol drinking little hellions WATCHING (they seem to rarely PARTICIPATE) in sports, have the District change the rules--but don't expect many people to watch the resulting "cage match".
Posted by minnow on Feb. 14 2004,5:50 pm
No one can respect an authority figure who plays morality cop. My life's experiences have shown me these are the same goofballs buying loads of porn, getting drunk and playing by their own rules when they think no ones watching. 
Posted by BS Fighter on Feb. 14 2004,5:52 pm
THAT's BS. Teachers don't have the right to physically make contact with students, unless it is to give first aid. I believe that carebear is saying that Brist did that off of school property at the City Arena, which even if it is hosting a school event, is NOT school property. I agree that they should not be smoking and drinking, but a teacher off of school property only has the right to report it to the authorities, not physically intervene 
I have heard that he is a little man and could possibly have "Napolean Syndrome", but I apologize if I am mistaken Thank you
Posted by alhs fan on Feb. 14 2004,9:15 pm
We want Ross.....we want Ross.......
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 15 2004,2:37 pm
I have heard nothing but great things about Mr. Brist. He is my girl's favorite, and her friends concur. Still if he really grabbed kids, he is wrong unless he was pulling them out of the way of a train or car. Reporting them to the cops was correct, though I question giving them all sobriety tests under constitutional grounds. What is up with this 21 law anyway. Can't we still draft 18 year olds? Why can they have a rifle and go to war, but not a beer? Strange times we live in. George Orwellian times are coming if things don't change.
Posted by alhs fan on Feb. 16 2004,6:11 pm
isn't she lucky, watch out if he doesn't like you......he'll drag you out and humiliate you even more by giving you a breathalizer, then search you, all of this in front of hundreds of fans, innocent kids really deserve this!
Posted by tiger fan on Feb. 16 2004,9:55 pm
Mr. Brist maybe a good teacher to his "seniors." To all the lower class students. He treats them like he owns them and only picks out a few students that he is willing to teach or show respect. This is a teacher that shouldn't be nominated for teacher of the year. About the discussion of the hockey game. It is true what he did to kids with the breathalizers which was not right. If they thought more kids were drinking in the stands. Mr. Brist should have had the hole section take a breathalizer test instead of picking out 10 kids that he has not got along with in the last few years. I give it up to the kids that passed that test just so they could go back and rub it in his face that he was wrong again. Now lets go to the part where he was draging a kid. This was one of the most obsceen things that i have ever wittnessed. I was watching "ryan" the kid that it happened to at the time it all started and he did not do a thing wrong. Mr. Aurthority all of a sudden comes up grabs him and says your out of here and starts to pull him away from the crowd. The hole time ryan was saying i did not do anything and telling him to get his hands off him. By ryan saying that it got Mr. Brist more mad and he put more effort into his dragging there were probably 30 kids who seen this and would tell you the same that i am. I don't understand why they have a man at a hockey game that has a short temper and has abused students at these events more than one time let alone have him be a teacher. There will be kids that might say a bad word everyonce and a while at a sporting event its what kids do to cheer for there team now and then. If it starts to get out of hand then maybe bring in someone crazy has this nut but untill then maybe Mr. Brist should stick to The swimming meets or something. Bring Ross back he did a fine job last year and did not touch a single kid
Posted by Montyman on Feb. 16 2004,9:58 pm
Or maybe vaporizing nicotine?
Posted by student parent on Feb. 16 2004,10:07 pm
Tiger fan makes good point.I see law suit in Mr. Brists future if he keeps going to way he is going and that will move to the school district if they dont watch themselves and who they are putting in charge. My kids have told me that he does favor the senior class and respects very few under classmates unless they totally agree with Mr. Brist and understand everything all the time and dont have any questions about anything
Maybe he should only be able to teach the seniors if you want to call it teach
Posted by alhs fan on Feb. 16 2004,10:17 pm
I question how the school could approve of him to be a mentor to these kids when he has lost his temper several times in the classroom, these kids were doing no wrong only supporting their friends and team.
Posted by parent on Feb. 16 2004,10:22 pm
These last few posts have really got me going about this guy. From what my kids have told me I already have a grudge for this man. If the district does not put someone else is charge things could get ugly. The next time he touches a student who knows if that student will defend himself and if he does there are several students around that will be more than willing to help. The next time something like this happens there could be a much different outcome and Mr. Brist might be sorry of taking this jobs. I would be a little more careful next time Bristy because there would be many students in that crowd that will apply force on you if your keep doing what you are doing
Posted by alhs fan on Feb. 16 2004,10:48 pm
not even an apology would take back the diginity and pride of what he has taken away from these kids, they were there for their friends and team and did nothing wrong
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 16 2004,11:52 pm
Wow, all this should shock me, but I am sad to say that is does not even a little. 
Sounds like Donna all over again. If these things are true, and sadly I believe them, then the school better straighten him out. For some reason no one is suing over how Donna behaved, but if Mr. Brist is putting his hands on kids, they will sue eventually. 
Posted by irisheyes on Feb. 17 2004,12:46 am
| Quote (jimhanson @ Feb. 14 2004,12:01:pm) |
| Doesn't District #241 have a policy on swearing, cigarettes on school property or functions (by a minor), or alcohol? I don't think he "made" the cops subject kids to breathalizer tests--that's a judgement call for the cops. I doubt he accosted the kids for no good reason--he must have heard the kid, or seen the cigarettes, or had reason to suspect alcohol in the soda. Sounds like he was enforcing the rules the District laid down--maybe THAT'S why he was nominated for teacher of the year. If you want swearing, cigarette smoking, alcohol drinking little hellions WATCHING (they seem to rarely PARTICIPATE) in sports, have the District change the rules--but don't expect many people to watch the resulting "cage match". |
I agree completely. I think Mr. Brist is a good teacher, he might be more active than other's if he finds out someone is breaking the rules, but isn't that a good thing? I've seen him chase kids down the hall who had drugs they were about to flush, but I never saw him do anything out of line. I sat next to him & his wife at a banquet a few years ago, I may have flunked his class, & never turned in any of my assignments, but I still respected him.
Posted by anti brist on Feb. 17 2004,11:54 am
Mr. Tarzan makes good pointThis does look like another Donna all over again. It is starting to happen just like with the cheer leaders and Donna. She would do something wrong and the cheer leaders would tell someone about it and the district would do nothing about it. This is what is happening to Mr. Brist he has messed up several times. He has been reported to the administration and yet nothing has happened. One day he is going to blow up just like donna.
WAKE UP DIST. 241 OUR KIDS ARE IN THIS SCHOOL AND AT THESE GAMES DO YOU WANT A SHORT STUMPY MAN ATTACKING YOUR CHILD!!
Posted by the Grad on Feb. 17 2004,12:08 pm
Hey IrisheyesHE MIGHT BE MORE ACTIVE WHEN SOMEONE IS BRAKING THE RULES!! HE JUST GRABBED A KID AND DRUG HIM 20 FEET WHEN HE WASN'T EVEN SURE IF THE KID WAS GUILTY. To me and most other people that is out of line. Ya maybe tell the kid to leave the game "if he actually knew that he did something wrong" He crossed the line this time and like was mentioned earlier i hope there is a lawsuit so Mr. Brist pays for stupidity
Posted by the Grad on Feb. 17 2004,12:51 pm
O yeah about the time where he reached into the pockets of a fan and pulled out cigs. I recall one student making the comment of sayin" you cant do that you dont have that authority" he quickly got on the case of this student by getting an inch away from his face and telling him to leave the arena. He never even remebered about the cigs. He was to wrapped up in trying to bully the student then somethin he inteneded to do. Come on Brist grow up will ya.
Posted by reader on Feb. 17 2004,12:55 pm
Give me a break. This has got to be the most gossip laden, rumor mill on the internet. It's amazing how people can read and respond to some of the trash on here and accept it as truth. "Dragged a kid 20 feet" - get serious! "He has no right to do this" (take cigarettes away) - read the law! "Do you want a short stumpy man attacking your child" - who's he ATTACKED?! One other thing. For those of you that like to encourage law suits (including a few in this topic) maybe you should also include some definitions in your posts - such as libel and defamation of character. Remember, this is a public forum and the laws of public speech apply (laws and penalties that is, criminal and civil). You may want to think twice before making slanderous comments without solid proof. The first amemdment does not guarantee protection against libelous (intentionally harmful for those of you who slept through English class) statements. And the internet is easily traced (just ask the people who were sued by the recording industry). Just a little food for thought!!
Posted by LisaMarie on Feb. 17 2004,1:07 pm
| Quote (the Grad @ Feb. 17 2004,12:08:pm) |
| HE MIGHT BE MORE ACTIVE WHEN SOMEONE IS BRAKING THE RULES!! HE JUST GRABBED A KID AND DRUG HIM 20 FEET WHEN HE WASN'T EVEN SURE IF THE KID WAS GUILTY. |
Take a deep breath in, let it out, pop a few Ritalin... feel better? Nobody here will ever take you seriously if you scream at them. If you want to get your point across you need to learn to converse diplomatically.
And "reader", in order to prove libel you'd have to show proof that the statement was both false AND meant to harm. I hardly think that repeating what was witnessed by others is libel. If someone started spreading rumors that Brist flew to Indonesia every month for romps with 10-year-old boys, THAT would be libel.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 17 2004,1:10 pm
Posted by reader on Feb. 17 2004,1:19 pm
Not quite true Lisa. Finding the initial statement of someone who "witnessed" an incident is quite easy in an environment such as this. Many of the statements that are made here are rants that may have a small bit of truth and a lot of personal vendetta attached to them. Whatever the case, making a statement that is knowingly false that has the potential to harm is still libel. That original statement, if it causes "significant or irrepairable harm" to a person's reputation is subject to prosecution. I would say the person that can best make that judgement is the person who is being talked about. It makes no difference to me if people want to take their chances of who's right and wrong with this definition. Like I said before, a lot of people decided that the recording industry was wrong in their interpretation of the law also - fewer now though!!
Posted by ryan on Feb. 17 2004,1:54 pm
ok mr. reader, you want some truth. I am the student that he did drag across the bleachers at the hockey game. he first grabbed my jacket and got 2 in. from my face to yell at me for nothing. then drug me down to the end of the belachers and continued to yell at me, when i told him to get his hands off me he replys, "what are you going to hit me." there is a pretty inteligent statement to make for being a supposed adult. Mr. brist might get lucky this time and nothing will happen to him but i assure you that if he ever does let anything even remotely close to this happen there will be more then one law suit.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 17 2004,2:29 pm
Pretty funny reader. This is a forum, also, this is a section within the forum called opinion. People give opinions in this section. You don't like um, don't visit anymore. Thank God there is a Constitution still protecting us from thought police, even though it is under attack daily by people that think public discourse is wrong. The information that I have heard is that Brist is an alright guy. What disturbs me is that you, and others like Irisheyes seem to think that a teacher using physical force is o.k. Where did you go to school? Did they grab you? I would not tolerate that at all with my children. The point I am making is that there are trained people to grab kids called police. If you need to call police, do so. If he knew the kids, what does he care if they leave, the cops will find them. If they throw away the smokes or liquor, well that accomplished something too did it not. Since you wish to try to quote the law, grabbing someone else is defined as simple assualt.
Posted by irisheyes on Feb. 17 2004,8:22 pm
| Quote (MrTarzan @ Feb. 17 2004,2:29:pm) |
| What disturbs me is that you, and others like Irisheyes seem to think that a teacher using physical force is o.k. |
I never stated, nor do I think that a teacher useing physical force is okay. At the same time though, I don't believe the story's being posted in this thread. Even if partially true, I think people are exagerateing. Another thing is that new username's are popping up constantly in this thread, this leads me to believe that students are registering & posting trying to get him in trouble. As soon as I heard someone say that he made the police give 10 kids breathalizer's, as if a teacher can tell police what to do, I didn't believe anything else.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 17 2004,9:08 pm
My most humble apology irisheyes. You are right, I went back and I was thinking of JimHansons statement about having a good reason to accost the kids. I should of gone back and found the quote, I just thought it was you I guess hanson just writes such intelligent stuff I had a hard time realizing that it was him.Maybe you are right and the same students are logging in under many names, but maybe it is more than that. I have participated in BBS's since the first modems use to take all night just to post this
, but rarely do moderators allow more than one identity per account. Yes, someone can have several e-mail accounts, and therefore register under an equal number of names, but I think this board has some controls. I notice bosshawg instantly gets your address and system info. Still, you might be right, and as I said at the beginning, my girl likes him. It is the indifferent attitude "if" he grabbed someone that scares me. He should be counseled not to do that. Those days are gone, or in Hollywood. :cool: They were never correct and usually escalated things. I am not a proponent for suing, but suing does bring bad behavior to the light of day, and puts things back into a "Civil" court hopefully avoiding a school shooting. I don't want for some teacher to get ticked off and end up costing all of us more money because he manhandles a student and gets sued either. What I am saying is don't do it. Call the authorities, period. That is what they are trained for, and paid for, not teachers.
Posted by irisheyes on Feb. 17 2004,10:18 pm
Apology accepted. Actually, I think its a compliment you would associate jimhanson's post's with my own. Us republican's have got to stick together!
Posted by reader on Feb. 17 2004,10:39 pm
You are right Tarzan, opinions are what this section is all about, agreed. The problem I have is when people start tossing out accusations it goes way beyond opinion. Obviously, there is a BIG difference. Also, if memory serves me right, once you put words on to paper (virtual or actual) it becomes action so you don't have to worry about thought police. And you're right, it is good that the Constitution is here to protect citizens from wrongful accusations in a public forum. If you care to look it up, ruling for the damaged party has already been challenged and upheld so there is precedence. All I'm saying is that opinions are fine, unless someone has hard facts to back up comments made about an individual directly, they better be ready to face the consequences if challenged.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 18 2004,12:07 am
Yeah, I have heard it all before, reader. Though I agree it stinks when people gossip and spread rumors, it is pushing it to try to make it criminal. I guess I just don't understand why some people immediately try intimidating people into stopping it, rather than debating and presenting another side. That is just as wrong as those that are speading rumors to me. In addition, you seem to be well read and a little versed on the law, so why are you trying to compare this to pirating music or software 
C'mon, that is a real reach and just an angry reaction to what you read. The two would'nt even come up in argument in front of the judge without a chuckle from the bench. Trying to classify what people wrote here as libel or slander (which is a stretch) would open entirely different arguments from the defense on constitutional grounds, not intellectual property rights. Still, I understand your point that people should only state facts as facts, and say "that I heard" when they just heard. I heard Brist is pretty cool, I have now read that maybe he is a bit of a hothead. "if" he did grab someone, he was over the line unless pulling them from a fire or out of the way of a train
Maybe he never did, no harm in discussing it though. If he did'nt he would probably laugh at all of this, I would. If he did it, maybe it would give him pause to see all the opinions, and maybe that would save us all money from a suit in the future. I believe in forums period. You just have to get use to them, this is the information age and the revolution is spreading around the world. You can't hide what you do anymore, and you better be prepared for scrutiny. Besides, isn't precedence that first he has to deny it and give the accusers a chance to retract it in MN, unless he can show where it already did irreparable harm?(i.e. loss of job, promotion, marriage, etc) I believe so.Now if someone started saying he was a gay man from Mars-then he should break out the attorneys
I would'nt stand for that I've never even been to Mars
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 18 2004,10:30 am
I don't know Brist, or the basis of the allegations other than what the WRITER alleged. The writer alleged that Brist "pulled cigarettes out of his pocket" and that a kid had "alcohol in a pop can".My wife is an elementary teacher, and teachers are required to take regular turns as "playground monitors". In today's litigious society, there is an expectation that they not only keep kids from fighting or doing something dangerous--they must enforce the rules set by the School District. There is an expectation that they will do whatever is necessary to keep kids safe.
A police officer doesn't have the option of ignoring a crime being committed--even if he is "off duty". Similarly--unlike private citizens, teachers do not have the option of ignoring behavior contrary to District policy. In the event that something happens, the District and the teacher would be held accountable.
While none of us have the "facts" in this case--it would appear that Brist was doing what the District expected of him--confiscating cigarettes from a minor, and reporting the alcohol violation to the police (he apparently took no direct action--it was the police that required the breathalizer tests).
Irisheyes guessed correctly--students are not only registering and posting--but according to one registered member--are using his log-in to post--verfied on the Moderator messages. I had hoped that this would die out naturally--but like some of the other "gossip" threads, it seems to have taken on a life of its own.
One of the values of the Forum is that opinions can be expressed, and news that would otherwise go unreported shared. It is up to the reader to decide if the opinions or news is credible. We should all be skeptical of ANYTHING we see in the mainstream media--or on this Forum. The nice thing about the Forum is that it is INTERACTIVE. Make the poster PROVE the point!
Posted by the Grad on Feb. 18 2004,11:30 am
There is a difference between rumors and factsMaybe some of these are getting blown out of proportion like the 10 kids that got breath tests. But there was only 6.
( Casey,Troy,Nate,Alrik,Danny, and Kris)
Maybe before you start talking you should know the facts and witnessed what happened like many of the writers in this disscussion. As a witness i know that each topic on here is true. They are not rumors but excuse me if you have been falsely informed. I wouldnt doubt if this is Mr. Brist trying to cover himself for all the mistakes he has made.
Posted by the Grad on Feb. 18 2004,11:37 am
Jim Hansen sorry to correct you he never confiscated the cigaretts. He pulled them from the pocket of a minor and when an individual asked Mr. Brist if he had the authority to do that he GAVE the minor his smokes back. and forgot about it. To me that is supplying to a minor. Shouldnt he have reported the minor to the cops or taken the ciggs away. SO MUCH FOR HIM DOING HIS JOB!!!
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 18 2004,12:22 pm
I don't know anything of this situation but there seems to be a fair amount of unhappy students in our high school. Not to be taking sides because I don't know what happened and don't care to get dragged into this discussion. But, the way I see this is that it's an issue that these young adults and their parents need to bring up with the school administration.I'm not saying that they don't have a right to vent here I'm saying that along with venting here if any of the allegations are true then it needs to be taken up with the school administration because just venting here really does nothing about any problem.
A lot of people might not agree with me on this but district 241 has always seemed to ignore the concerns of the students(and parents) even 15-20 years ago when I went to school they were like that. They've never understood that the students spend 8 hours a day with these teachers and they see the way they act every day of the week. Every kid in that school has always been able to tell you which teachers suck at teaching or tend to have an explosive temper.
I can think of 3 teachers right off the top of my head that should have been looked into when I went to school. There was a science teacher that had a tendancy to drop his pencil whenever a cute girl was wearing a short skirt, an algebra teacher that did nothing but sleep through most of his classes and a phy. ed. teacher with an explosive temper and a tendency to put his hands on students.
Maybe ISD 241 should consider getting the student councils more involved in these type of complaints or maybe set up a review board of staff for looking into student and parent complaints about staff.
Whether they are 18 years old or not they deserve all the protections of the U.S. constitution including protection from illegal search and seizure and if my kid were searched over a pack of cigs I'd be pretty angry. The only exception I can possibly see to a student being searched is if the student were suspected of having a weapon and the search was just a pat-down for any weapons.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 18 2004,12:27 pm
Like Irisheyes, once the "facts" stated turn out not to be true--I am skeptical about the rest.You can't win--takes the cigarettes away--people get down on him. Gives them back--supplying to a minor. TEN kids are "forced to take breathalizer tests"--then it was 6. By whom? Brist? The police? The District holds teachers responsible for enforcing its rules--then apparently doesn't back them. The public decrees that it is illegal for minors to smoke or drink--then doesn't back enforcement. Is it any wonder so few people want to become teachers?
Public schools have become a microcosm of today's society--full of conflicting interests--sending mixed messages. Is it any wonder that there is explosive growth and better academic achievement in private or parochial schools--even compared to "free" schools? Some may think that private or parochial schools are "elitist"--I would argue that public schools are spiraling down due to "free thinkers" that we have seen here. Private or parachial schools are ONLY better because they MAINTAIN A STANDARD--everyone knows what is expected of them--everyone knows that with civil liberties, they have civic responsibilities. Does that leave the cursing, cigarette smoking, alcohol drinking minors "behind"? YES--always has.
I'm all for civil liberties, but with civil liberties comes civil responsibilities. Civil liberties apply to EVERYBODY--those students and spectators participating or watching school sports have a reasonable expectation--a RIGHT--to not being bothered by cursing, cigarette smoking, drinking minors.
If the public WANTS this kind of behavior--get rid of the charge to the people you ask to enforce the law. If the public doesn't like the law--change it!
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 18 2004,2:52 pm
No one I know, except the spouse of a teacher in the public school system would argue that a cop and a teacher are near the same thing. Spooky. I don't want teachers hired to enforce anything through any means except expulsion and suspension, not grabbing anyone unless to seperate fighters. Call the cops period for miscreants. That is way beyond the scope of a teacher, and I will bet you money the school rules say that the teacher cannot do it. I won't argue with you about the public school system. I agree. Give out vouchers so that it is no longer a economic monopoly and I will be happy to send my kids to private school. Unfortunately I cannot afford both.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 18 2004,4:57 pm
Not equating cops and teachers except to say that unlike the rest of us, they don't have the choice of ignoring a violation. If they did, and something DID happen, the governmental agency AND the person would be liable. Kind of like Gabe's refusal to pay overtime in Wisconsin. The local jailer was reporting to work, when he witnessed a car crash right in front of the courthouse. He stopped to render first aid, and somebody ran into the courthouse to get the on-duty deputies. As people do, the on-duty deputies kidded the coming-on duty jailers that "we got overtime, and you didn't". The jailers asked to be paid for the 20 minutes they spent before they punched in.Gabe replied "they were acting as private citizens", and refused to pay them. The case went all the way to a hearing in Eau Claire, where the jailers request was upheld. The court ruled that, unlike a private citizen, a public person can NOT refuse to do a part of his job (can you imagine the hue and cry if the jailer had walked by the car crash, saying "Sorry, I'm not on duty yet").
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 18 2004,5:18 pm
| Quote |
The court ruled that, unlike a private citizen, a public person can NOT refuse to do a part of his job |
You don't really believe that enforcing the law is part of a teachers job do you? Teachers have a responsibilty to see that the school district rules are followed but I doubt there is anything in their job description about enforcing the law.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 18 2004,5:56 pm
No, not saying that at all--but if a school teacher DIDN'T enforce the rules, they would be censured (but being government employees, what are they going to do, fire them?). Worse yet--imagine what would happen if the kid with alcohol ended up in an accident--and the teacher KNEW it and didn't take action.I'm sure most teachers would be happy to have someone else take the responsibility from them--why doesn't someone start a petition to have the school board remove the prohibition on cursing, smoking, and drinking by minors? Kids can do what they want, and teachers will have no responsibility.
What's that you say, you wouldn't want to go to an event where the kids run the show (the inmates run the asylum)? Neither would I.
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 18 2004,6:40 pm
| Quote |
why doesn't someone start a petition to have the school board remove the prohibition on cursing, smoking, and drinking by minors? |
Nobody suggested changing the rules or that the rules weren't fair.
I only said that this school district needs to pay closer attention to students and parents complaints and I don't want teachers enforcing the law(anymore than I want the cops teaching my kids math)
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 18 2004,6:46 pm
Wow jimhanson, I really respect your ideas and postings normally, but I think you are maybe too close to the subject here. We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think you can find a quote where anyone said let the kids do what they want (unless you dig it up from somewhere that minnow was goofing as usual, I don't really think he should teach ). What I am saying, and I read others agree with is that teachers are not cops and have limitations on them as to what actions they can take, and they should have those limits. I went to high school in a large inner city school, 3,500 plus students with many minority gangs and white kids were even the majority. Teachers were absolutely prohibited from touching kids for their own safety, one they might get stabbed or shot or worse, and they almost definitly would be sued, because that is what disadvantaged kids do. They try to get money from the system.Here it is different, part of why I have lived here for the last decade and a half. The kids here are not rough, or trouble. Sure you have a few out of control, but even that is mostly harmless acting up that they will outgrow. Youth leaders have no problem intimidating them and therefore making them vulnerable to abuse. Pastor's can't grab them, scoutmaster's and other youth leaders can't grab them, teachers should not be able to grab them either. Cops are paid for that, not teachers, and they should not be. Someone want to grab kids, get into law enforcement or youth corrections. I would say that I bet that Dist 241 has a written rule prohibiting it or they would be open to legal action when it happened, but after learning even more about rule 19 on this forum, nothing would surprise me. They might have a rule here that teachers can mace them, or hit them with tazers and I guess I would not be shocked (no pun intended) after seeing our local leaders single handedly trying to suspend the constitution.
Again, I normally agree with what you say, I am open minded about many things and I have lived a happy long life. I have always voted for the man, not the party, and my voting record is 50/50 democrat and republican, with the exception of the occasional independent, so I think I can say I am fair, but I will never agree with you on this, so I am pretty much done with it.
However, I can add no teacher ever better grab my child or I will pursue the issue everyway I can, regardless of cost and consequence, period. Call me, or the cops, suspend or expel, I will deal with the kid, don't be putting your hands on them or the "public authority" will regret it if they are not in law enforcement. I will bet more parents feel the way I do, not the way you do, so the chance of liability for physical action is high, and I would say it should be avoided at all costs.
Posted by rosebudinal on Feb. 18 2004,9:08 pm
I hate to be a wet noodle, but, I think it would be great if someone would post a wonderful story about a positive thing that one of the nominated teachers did for your child.I know that there were ones who influenced me. And one of them, Marion Drescher, was named Teacher of the year a few years back. She helped me through a tough time in my life as a 7th grader, when a friend of mine was murdered. I still think of her and her quiet way of watching over me in the months after this tragedy occured.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 18 2004,10:54 pm
That is not being a wet noodle rosebudinal, it is taking a thread called teacher of the year and discussing how they pick them like the thread started when posted. What a great idea. I too had teachers make the biggest impacts in my life. There was the one that knew I had a messed up home life that invited me to scouts which kept me focused and gave me a great male role models. There was another that convinced me to try for a scholarship that my family thought I could not get, and I got it. Many teachers helped me out and I am was very lucky. Yeah, I had the one that actually broke a yardstick on my head, and one that loved to use a paddle with holes in it (back then you could get away with that stuff, part of why I disagree with physical contact), but the majority of teachers that I got were great and powerful influences in my life. How do they choose the teacher of the year here? I don't have a clue, in my school district there was a mailing sent to every house and students and their parents each had a place on the form to input. Of course it was a big school district with 9 high schools, so I guess that was the only way, and here it is probably a much simpler thing to do. Anyone out there know how they pick them? I realize the original poster was upset and really was just asking that question rhetorically, but it is a great question. Is it fair? Or is it like the Mayor's spouse being Citizen of the Year? You would think he would not have been eligible. Kinda shocked me. But maybe he deserved it too.
Posted by irisheyes on Feb. 19 2004,12:19 am
I'd have to agree with jimhanson on this one. From the post's I read he's saying part of a teacher's job is enforcing the rules, not law's. I think the disagreement here is by putting school rules, and public laws in the same catagory, which should be more clear. If its only something like kids swearing, or being in the hall without a pass during class, then why not let the teacher's handle it. That's how I would interpret it.Sorry to interrupt your positive stories. I have a habit of getting off the thread's topic, why quit now.
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 19 2004,6:51 am
| Quote |
it would appear that Brist was doing what the District expected of him--confiscating cigarettes from a minor, and reporting the alcohol violation to the police (he apparently took no direct action--it was the police that required the breathalizer tests). |
Why would anyone ever have to lay a hand on a student to confiscate a pack of smokes? All a teacher needs to do is say to the student, "Hey, give up the smokes or I'll go over there and get that cop that's hassling those kids with the breathalyzer and he'll search you and take them away."
If you want the teachers playing cop then why do we bother supplying a cop to the school or at school events?
About the Mayors husband being selected as Citizen of the year, my fifth grade daughter was picked to be a member of the citizenship committee this year. It's a group of 5th graders, (a couple from each of the 4 schools) that meets once a month for 4-5 months after school to learn about being a good citizen. At the end of the school year they pick the citizen of the year. And although I don't doubt a 5th graders potential to do a a lot of things, I kind of doubt their ability to decide the "Citizen of the Year".
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 19 2004,7:37 am
| Quote (jimhanson @ Feb. 18 2004,12:27:pm) |
| Civil liberties apply to EVERYBODY--those students and spectators participating or watching school sports have a reasonable expectation--a RIGHT--to not being bothered by cursing, cigarette smoking, drinking minors. |
I checked the Constitution twice and I can't find anywhere in it where the founding fathers gave us a right to be protected from cursing, cigarette smoking, drinking minors. Maybe they just forgot that one?
Posted by Tiger on Feb. 19 2004,8:49 am
I too have to agree with Jim and irisheyes on this issue. Mr. Tarzan, here's a question, if your kid was getting the tar beat out of them and a teacher was nearby, would you want the teacher to "physically" remove the other student from your child or would you want the teacher to go get a more authoritative figure?
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 19 2004,10:32 am
I'm having a hard time putting across my point--teachers aren't ASKING for this--there's nothing but trouble in it for them. On the other hand, they can not NOT enforce the rules set down by the school district. Do them a favor by asking the District to remove the rules.As far as "hitting too close to home"--this has no bearing (other than for discussion) on me. We have no kids--and my wife has never hit a kid--so there's no history there. She has been nominated (and been a finalist several times) for Teacher of the Year.
I'm serious when I say "if you don't like the laws, change them". We attempted to work with the County on Rule 19--when that proved unworkable, we worked to change it. Too many people just accept things "because that's just the way they are".
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 19 2004,10:46 am
| Quote |
| I checked the Constitution twice and I can't find anywhere in it where the founding fathers gave us a right to be protected from cursing, cigarette smoking, drinking minors. Maybe they just forgot that one? |
It is the "activist courts" that have allowed for this "interpretation" of the Constitution. I'll agree with you--let's go back to a strict interpretation of the Constitution. The framers of the Constitution FEARED big government--that's why they included checks and balances, and the tenth amendment--the powers not SPECIFICALLY provided fo the Federal government would be reserved for the States themselves. This isn't to say that we would be stuck in the late 18th century--just that if the government wanted to take more power, they would have to pass the idea by the elected representatives, and the States as well. No more creating an agency like OSHA or ADA--totally without rules--and allowing them to write their own laws without having the law passed by a deliberative body.
What say--are you in?
Posted by parent on Feb. 19 2004,11:26 am
Yes i agree with Jim on this issue as well. If a child is getting "the tar kicked out of him" yes a teacher should move in and help. But that was not the case in this issue. This kid did nothing wrong he was inocent and even if he was guilty it was because of a swear word. What my point is the teachers should help when they are fighting but if it comes down to a kid saying one word and getting pushed around by a teacher that is not right. All im trying to say is that if a teacher is going to use Physical Force it better be for a good reason. Who knows what will happen next time and I Know that if this happened to my child I would not just be standing around not doing anything about it. I think that if it was your child you would have a totally different perspective on this. Excuse me if im wrong
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 19 2004,12:17 pm
| Quote |
| I've seen him chase kids down the hall who had drugs they were about to flush, but I never saw him do anything out of line. |
But, chasing a kid down the hall is out of line! How do you know the kid had drugs and that he wasn't just running because he thought the teacher was going to molest him or violate his civil rights by illegally searching him?
I think Jim is smart enough to understand that everyone here agrees that a teacher has a responsibility to stop a fight and that they are expected to protect the students from immediate danger. What most are saying is that they are not hired to be law enforcement officers. We hired another group of people to do that stuff.
I think that most of us that disagree with you are saying believe that a student has a right not to be touched by any teacher unless it is to protect that student or another person. And searching anyone for a pack of smokes or chasing someone down a hallway to commit an illegal search is just wrong.
And I agree completly with the other parents that have said it better not ever happen to my kid. Even though I doubt I will ever have to worry about that because both my girls seem to be a bit of an apple polisher(they must get that from their mom)
If we treat students like convicted felons and we don't give them every protection afforded all Americans by the constitution then how can we expect them to grow up to respect the constitution?
Posted by irisheyes on Feb. 19 2004,12:36 pm
| Quote (Liberal @ Feb. 19 2004,12:17:pm) |
| How do you know the kid had drugs and that he wasn't just running because he thought the teacher was going to molest him or violate his civil rights by illegally searching him? |
I know because the student was my friend, and I knew that he had drugs on him, which is why he was running to flush them.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 19 2004,12:52 pm
Nobody's saying the teachers are ASKING to take this on. If this is a big problem, have the school district remove the language--just as we asked the County Board to remove Rule 19. I'm sure the teachers won't be fighting to retain the responsibility.Several people have mentioned "reporting this to the police". This brings up the prospect of police stationed in every school. Is THIS what we want?
I stated before, the school is a microcosm of "real-world" life after graduation for these kids. Kids instinctively know that a cop can't be everywhere--so what good would having a cop in school accomplish? I ask the question--NOT rhetorically--IF a kid was doing something wrong (cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, violence, threats)--would you rather have a TEACHER talk to the kid, or an ARMED COP (with a possible charge involved)? I don't know--I don't have kids--that's why I'm asking. I believe I'd rather have a teacher handle the problem, unless it becomes violent. Teachers are less confrontational, they are better attuned to kids attitudes and needs, they are usually able to "work it out" rather than be confrontational like a cop, and it doesn't show up on a kids record.
Finally, what does having a cop in each school tell our kids? Those of us "of a certain (old) age" remember when government was not the nursemaid for all of society's ills. In the past, if your neighbor's dog got into your garbage, you took care of the problem yourself--you talked to your neighbor about it. Today, people tend to "call the cops" to adjudicate the most petty differences, leading to the "need" for more cops (and judges, AND COURTROOMS, and Jailers)
, and an escalation of hostilities. MUCH better if people just worked out the petty things among themselves.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 19 2004,12:52 pm
Tiger go back and read my posts, I clearly said they do have the right to seperate a fight, as well as pulling them out of a fire, or from in front of a car, something that can save a life or avoid injury. Other than that, call a cop. If it is two kids verbally arguing, you may Tell them to go to the office, or if they refuse you tell them to leave the property. If they refuse you do not drag them off the grounds, you call a cop. Jim I a with you on the reducing government, public schools are not in the constitution either, nor are many other public entities that exist. So while you are eliminating other groups, don't forget Dist 241.
Now on a more reasonable note, people are entitled in a free society to create schools and boards to govern them, as well as other agencies, it still does not change the fact we do not expect the Mayor to pull us over, or shoot it out with armed suspects. Working for the government does not make you any kind of an enforcer. Our military are even prohibited from being law enforcement within the county. It does not mean they cannot tackle a purse snatcher if he runs by, it means they don't have to, and neither does a teacher, even on school grounds.
Posted by LisaMarie on Feb. 19 2004,1:09 pm
| Quote (jimhanson @ Feb. 19 2004,12:52:pm) |
| This brings up the prospect of police stationed in every school. Is THIS what we want? |
We already HAVE a cop stationed in the high school, the liason officer.
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 19 2004,1:15 pm
Wow Jim, nobody is saying that a teacher can't maintain order. They just can't use force to maintain order and they must abide by the constitution. I'll bet you believe in corporal punishment(teachers spanking kids) don't you?
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 19 2004,2:04 pm
Liberal--No, and you know better than that.| Quote |
| Nobody's saying the teachers are ASKING to take this on. If this is a big problem, have the school district remove the language--just as we asked the County Board to remove Rule 19. I'm sure the teachers won't be fighting to retain the responsibility. |
Is this a big problem right now? No, I don't think so--you don't hear much about it. All we have is an allegation from a kid that says he was "grabbed"--an allegation that must be taken with a grain of salt (he also mentioned that this teacher "forced 10 kids to take breathalizer tests"--an allegation that he admitted was wrong). Any teacher charged with injuring a kid in the last, oh, TWO DECADES? NO? Any kid seeking treatment for injuries? NO? Any lawsuits filed? NO. When was the last instance of this EVER happening? HOW many years (if EVER?) That doesn't stop several of you who insist on condemning a teacher that was nominated by his students, by the kids parents, and by his peers. He must be doing SOMETHING right!
Maybe the detractors of this Forum are right--there are some really negative people out there.
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 19 2004,5:17 pm
| Quote |
Liberal--No, and you know better than that. |
No, I don't know better than that, a lot of people believe in corporal punishment and I figured if you believed in corporal punishment it would explain why you seem to think that it's ok for a teacher to put their hands on a student.
| Quote |
Nobody's saying the teachers are ASKING to take this on. If this is a big problem, have the school district remove the language--just as we asked the County Board to remove Rule 19. I'm sure the teachers won't be fighting to retain the responsibility. |
What language would you like the school district to remove I don't think anyone knows what language you are talking about.
| Quote |
Is this a big problem right now? No, I don't think so--you don't hear much about it. |
I wonder if that's because the kids don't report it because there is a chance some adults just won't believe them?
As far as being negative, I offered an opinion that the schools in general should treat kids and their parents complaints a little more seriously. Also that I think teachers should make it a point to always obey the constitution and give the kids the protection afforded them by it. How is that negative?
Posted by irisheyes on Feb. 19 2004,5:27 pm
| Quote (jimhanson @ Feb. 19 2004,2:04:pm) |
| Maybe the detractors of this Forum are right--there are some really negative people out there. |
I think your going a little too far their, Jim. Their should atleast be a sarcasm smiley next to that statement.
As for what you just mentioned Liberal about taking it more complaints more seriously, I think they believe the accusations too often. Look how long it took for the kids in here to be confronted about their lieing, and exagerateing. I once heard a saying used by teacher's, "Don't believe EVERYTHING your kids say happens at school, and we won't believe EVERYTHING your kid says happens at home".
I'd disagree with you Tarzan about government worker's not supposed to be enforcer's. Look at a list of federal and some state agency's, most of them their whole job decription for employees is enforcing the rules set for that specific field. I can think of several agency's, that aren't cops, but thats what they do is enforce laws and safety regulations, OSHA, FAA, USDA just to name a few.
Posted by minnow on Feb. 19 2004,5:36 pm
Absolutly the one of the dumbest things ever said on these forums."I'd disagree with you Tarzan about government worker's not supposed to be enforcer's."
You sir are an idiot!
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 19 2004,7:29 pm
| Quote |
I once heard a saying used by teacher's, "Don't believe EVERYTHING your kids say happens at school, and we won't believe EVERYTHING your kid says happens at home". |
No way! You can't possibly be suggesting that every kid lies.
Personally, I believe everything my kids tell me and I still believe that the majority of children tell the truth and I would guess that nearly every young adult in highschool tells the truth.
| Quote |
Look how long it took for the kids in here to be confronted about their lieing, and exagerateing. |
Why was this story picked apart in the first place? I don't remember any other post where the facts have been picked apart like that.
I honestly don't have an opinion about this particular incident and I really didn't even read what was said about the teacher that closely(I figure it's a matter for the kids parents to take up). What I was responding to was the people that were picking apart the kids story and those that seem to have no problem with a teacher violating a kids rights (if the stories were true). It seems like some even want me to believe that the teachers don't really want to violate the kids rights but they are required to by some school district mandate.
If we want our kids to grow up to respect and understand the Constitution and the limits it imposes on govt. then they need to be taught the importance of it from the first day of school and chasing kids down the hall or sticking your hand in their pockets looking for contraband is no way to teach them about the limits of government.
It seems that everytime I post I get dragged deeper into this so I'm going to have to follow MrTarzan's lead and just agree to disagree because I doubt anyones opinion will be changed either way about this. (I know mine won't be anyways)
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 19 2004,9:47 pm
Hear Hear Liberal, they are talking in circles now and I am getting dizzy I also have stated I don't know if it is true, but the point is that they should not grab kids. I don't believe there is a policy to change because I don't believe that grabbing kids is written in any policy at all, though I admit in this weird climate of strange rules it is plausable. As far as OHSA, USDA and the FAA, they don't grab people either, they can however report them and turn them over for investigation and arrest, just the same as teachers can. The exception is the FAA also hires Air Marshalls, and they can grab you if it is warranted. 90% of FAA employees are examiners or technicians, (I did work with them), and they would never grab anyone. Maybe the USDA has Marshalls, but I don't think so or there would probably have been a movie or show about them busting some bad beef smugglers. I believe they would have to call the cops. OHSA, they have to bring a warrant to bring sheriffs in to shut you down. They don't have Marshalls either. I did not say that they could not enforce rules, where do you people keep getting that? Anyway, moving on is the best thing to do here because we obviously have people around that think teachers should be able to do anything to maintain order and I doubt those opinions will ever change. Even though I often think they go way too far, I sure am glad there is a civil liberties union willing to fight this kind of thinking. There is no excuse for teachers using force except to prevent harm, and I don't mean second hand smoke ;)
Posted by irisheyes on Feb. 19 2004,10:27 pm
| Quote |
| I did not say that they couldn't enforce rules, where do you people keep getting that? |
Here, its on the end of page 6.
| Quote (MrTarzan @ Feb. 19 2004,12:52:pm) |
| Working for the government does not make you any kind of an enforcer. |
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 20 2004,9:46 am
I agree with Liberal and Mr. Tarzan--nobody's opinion will be changed, and I'm tired of the subject. Moving OFF SUBJECT though, in response to Mr. Tarzan's post about government agents not being enforcers--Mr. Tarzan brings up OSHA, USDA, and Air Marshalls for the FAA.Did you know that ALL of these people are authorized to carry guns on airplanes? Nearly every government employee is authorized--without requirement to show need, to be trained, or show competency. Good Grief--they had a DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION TESTER carrying a gun in the back of the airplane!
I can hear the excuses already--"I need the gun in case anybody wants to take the answer sheets away from me".
Government "Enforcers"? You bet!But the government is dragging its feet about arming PILOTS--the people charged with the SAFETY of flight, the guys that have undergone psychological screening--the guys the bad guys are trying to GET TO--despite the fact that Congress mandated it.
Glad to know that the government is "protecting" us?
Posted by MADDOG on Feb. 20 2004,1:34 pm
I haven't participated in this threat, nor read much of it. When I was in school, the principal have a big stick hanging on his wall as a deturance to kids getting out of line and behaving themselves. The writing on it said:"BOARD OF EDUCATION"
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 20 2004,5:34 pm
Your are correct irisheyes, glad you pointed it out. It should have said "Just" working for the government does not make you an enforcer. I mean come on. I worked for the government in one capacity or another for more than 20 years. Does a government janitor or electrician carry a gun? Give me a break. I do not believe that a tester can carry a gun, or that ohsa or usda can as well, especially on a plane. If they can then it is an over reaction to 9/11, and brand new to me.jimhanson, I agree that pilots should be allowed to carry guns if they wish. Most of them used to be military, let them carry. The Mythbusters on Discovery proved that a .45 caliber round will not cause sudden decompression of a plane even if it goes through a window or penetrates the skin. A reduced charge round like what the Marshalls carry is even less likely too. Give them to the pilots.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 21 2004,1:11 pm
From Mr. Tarzan| Quote |
| Does a government janitor or electrician carry a gun? Give me a break. I do not believe that a tester can carry a gun, or that ohsa or usda can as well, especially on a plane. If they can then it is an over reaction to 9/11, and brand new to me. |
From Air Line Pilots Association position paper, in response to the TSA.
| Quote |
| Federal agents from many agencies including Department of Agriculture, Department of Education, FBI, Secret Service, HUD, HHS and others, as well as uniformed police officers and National Guard Soldiers, are authorized to carry firearms in secure airport areas. These agents, uniformed police officers and soldiers all carry firearms with them through airport facilities and terminals, and, in many cases, on board airplanes, without problems or undue risk. Armed airline pilots can be expected to do the same. |
Mr. Tarzan--since you worked for the government for over 20 years--NOTHING should surprise you when it comes to differences between what a government program was designed to do and what is actually implemented.
(sarcasm--just kidding!)
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 21 2004,5:54 pm
LOL , you are correct jimhanson, nothing does surprise me, and the government is too big and out of control. Watching it in action has made me suspicious of it. I could tell you stories of things it is doing that no one would believe. That is scary, I used to hold a commercial pilots license, so I believe in the ALPA, and if that is what they are reporting, then I am inclined to believe them. Even more reason to arm the pilots.
Posted by parent on Feb. 23 2004,11:42 am
Back to Mr. BristMr. Brist put phisical force on a student and nothing is being done to prevent this from happening again. What a school district we have here. I can't stop wondering what he is going to do next if someone doesn't step in and do something.
Posted by alhs fan on Feb. 23 2004,7:35 pm
Well said parent! For the posts who say kids are lying and exagerating is bull. I said 10 kids but was guessing from what I saw in the crowd, not intentionally. 6 or 10 what is the difference, someone posted the exact number and none of this is exagerating. I seen it all. Why report to admin it does no good. They don't respect kids or parents.
Posted by irisheyes on Feb. 23 2004,8:44 pm
I'm the one that said some of the kids are lying and exagerating. All anyone has to do to see that is look at the first few pages of this thread! First someone said he "tried dragging a kid", next thing someone says "He dragged me 20 feet", it was the same incident but everything changed.alhs fan-you first claimed he gave the kids breathalizer's, then we find out it was the police (I don't know of teacher's having breathalizer's to begin with). Now you claim you were wrong on the number of them but, "what's the difference" if it was 6 or 10? The difference is that when someone's story starts to dramatically change, its usually a good indicator of being false.