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| Post Number: 51
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hymiebravo 
Group: Members
Posts: 4989
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Posted on: Jun. 26 2009,6:32 pm |
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(MADDOG @ Jun. 26 2009,3:39 pm)
QUOTE
(Expatriate @ Jun. 26 2009,12:16 pm)
QUOTE Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.
Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990
Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960
Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.
Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana
Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.
Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation Ok, no one asked so I will. Expat, you're stating facts again, but not backing them up wit a link. Please show us doubters.
Maybe you just misread it. You know like the Clark Street debate. 
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| Post Number: 52
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MADDOG
Group: Moderator
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Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Jun. 26 2009,7:17 pm |
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Perhaps I did? I reread both posts made by expat today on the thread and do not see a link.
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Actually my wife is especially happy when my google check arrives each month. Thanks to douchbags like you, I get paid just for getting you worked up. -Liberal
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| Post Number: 53
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| Post Number: 54
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Expatriate
Group: Members
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Joined: Oct. 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 26 2009,10:53 pm |
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(jimhanson @ Jun. 26 2009,2:12 pm)
QUOTE
(Expatriate @ Jun. 26 2009,12:16 pm)
QUOTE Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.
Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990
Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960
Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.
Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana
Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.
Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation It's a case of not that we have gotten WORSE--but that others have IMPROVED. Got a problem with that?  In all of your "facts"--what is it that these countries have that the U.S. doesn't have? Superior equipment? Better Doctors? Better drugs?
The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee access to health care as a right of citizenship. 28 industrialized nations have single payer universal health care systems, or multipayer universal health care systems..
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History is no more than the lies agreed upon by the victors.
~NAPOLEON BONAPARTE
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| Post Number: 55
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ICU812
Group: Super Administrators
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Posted on: Jun. 26 2009,11:03 pm |
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Make a law, everyone must buy health insurance. That should fix it.
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| Post Number: 56
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Expatriate
Group: Members
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Posted on: Jun. 26 2009,11:07 pm |
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(MADDOG @ Jun. 26 2009,7:17 pm)
QUOTE Perhaps I did? I reread both posts made by expat today on the thread and do not see a link.
I didn't add a link but I gave an web address for the first post. it's not difficult to back track sources, if you can dispute the facts lets hear it..
Common Citizen
QUOTE Not to disparage your source...but I've read AFL/CIO magazines including the AFSCME union magazines enough over the years where I can now murmer bull$hit and cough at the same time. I assume those publications come from the same source as there website counterparts.
another brilliant come back, unable to prove the statistics false you merely label them "bull$hit"....
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History is no more than the lies agreed upon by the victors.
~NAPOLEON BONAPARTE
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| Post Number: 57
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| Post Number: 58
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| Post Number: 59
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
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Posted on: Jun. 27 2009,9:47 am |
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Expatriate--it appears the original source of those figures was from the World Health Organization.
Wikipedia has a good article on a comparison of Canadian and U.S. systems--some outcomes are better in one country than the other. nullMy Webpage
Here's an example of what the article had to say about the WHO study. QUOTE For example, a ranking by the World Health Organization of health care system performance among 191 member nations, published in 2000, ranked Canada 30th and the U.S. 37th, and the overall health of Canada 35th to the American 72nd.[8] The WHO did not merely consider health care outcomes, but also placed heavy emphasis on the health disparities between rich and poor, funding for the health care needs of the poor, and the extent to which a country was reaching the potential health care outcomes they believed were possible for that nation. In an international comparison of 21 more specific quality indicators conducted by the Commonwealth Fund International Working Group on Quality Indicators, the results were more divided. One of the indicators was a tie, and in 3 others, data was unavailable from one country or the other. Canada performed better on 11 indicators; such as survival rates for colorectal cancer, childhood leukemia, and kidney and liver transplants. The U.S. performed better on 6 indicators, including survival rates for breast and cervical cancer, and avoidance of childhood diseases such as pertussis and measles. It should be noted that the 21 indicators were distilled from a starting list of 1000. The authors state that, "It is an opportunistic list, rather than a comprehensive list."[90]
It also addresses my point of differences in lifestyles. QUOTE Some of the difference in outcomes may also be related to lifestyle choices. The OECD found that Americans have slightly higher rates of smoking and alcohol consumption than do Canadians[91] as well as significantly higher rates of obesity.[93] A joint US-Canadian study found slightly higher smoking rates among Canadians. [94] Another study found that Americans have higher rates not only of obesity, but also of other health risk factors and chronic conditions, including physical inactivity, diabetes, hypertension, arthritis, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.[16] A Canadian systematic review concluded that differences in the health care systems of Canada and the United States could not alone explain differences in health care outcomes
While overall death rates were similar, if you DO have a medical emergency, your wait time for treatment and your chance of survival (the two would seem to be lingked) are much better in the U.S. than in Canada. QUOTE A study in the journal Circulation found that Canadian patients whose histories were followed from 1990 to 1993 had a 17% higher risk of dying from heart attacks than did U.S. patients. You are 3 times more likely to have angioplasty or bypass surgery in the U.S.
Perhaps the most troubling issue with socialized medicine to me is found in this statement about the Canadian system QUOTE Governments attempt to control health care costs by being the sole purchasers and thus they do not allow private patients to bid up prices.[citation needed] Those with non-emergency illnesses such as cancer cannot pay out of pocket for time-sensitive surgeries and must wait their turn on waiting lists. According to the Canadian Supreme Court in its 2005 ruling in Chaoulli v. Quebec, waiting list delays "increase the patient’s risk of mortality or the risk that his or her injuries will become irreparable."[ I don't want to have my health run by a bureaucrat--or be told that I have to wait for life-saving procedures--and I don't believe even the most avid adherents to government medicine believe that is a good idea, either. This is the most important issue.
Read the Wikipedia article--I think they did an excellent job. My takeaway on it remains unchanged--Canada instituted a VERY expensive system that has bankrupted the couontry--for minimal results. Like any Socialist program, it DID "level the playing field"--giving better health care to the poor--but lowing the overall standard in the country. The tradeoff is not worth it.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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