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| Post Number: 51
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| Post Number: 52
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jimhanson 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Apr. 09 2012,2:13 pm |
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Rosalind-- QUOTE And then there's your comment: The "occupiers" are emblematic of those that are perpetually complaining. Just look at the widespread issues in the cartoon--these professional agitators are outraged about EVERYTHING--yet though they constantly demand "change"--they don't specify HOW that change should come about--or what those changes should be.
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Awww Jim, are people only allowed one or two problems to complain about? I didn't get that memo. hmmm, and looking at the list of issues, or things some of us in this forum have been discussing for the last few months, or hell, some things most people in this forum have been complaining about since this forum began!- All of these issues are minor? We have no legit complaints? Do you honestly think that? You think the country is just fine and dandy? --------
Nope--you can protest about most anything you want--but it reminds me of that Marlon Brando line in The Wild Ones--"What are you protesting?" To which he sneers "What have you got?" 
Some people are BORN PROTESTERS!
Then there are the rest of us--we're outraged, too--mainly by what the "Protesting class" of "political activists" have foisted upon us. For the most part, we simply endure their tantrums--until it goes too far--then we throw them out as happened in 2010. (laugh)
JIM QUOTE These kids are like all OTHER kids--they think that simply saying "I WANT" and throwing a tantrum, the adults will give it to them. ----
Rosalind-- QUOTE Oh, should we be people like you who continually stick their heads in the sand and ignore big problems so the problems just keep growing and growing? --------
Naw--I don't stick my head in the sand--I take every opportunity to expose the ridiculous positions of liberals! 
QUOTE "It's only been 6 months--look at what they've accomplished"
Yep--they've managed to alienate the majority of the populace, despite STARTING OUT with support!
QUOTE Anyways, here is some of what has been accomplished:
Income Inequality: The 99 Percent movement refocused America’s political debate, forcing news outlets and eventually politicians to focus on rising income inequality. While debt and deficits were the primary focus of the media before the movement started, their attention after the movement began shifted to jobs, Wall Street, and unemployment. By the end of October, even Republicans were talking about income inequality, and a week later, Time Magazine devoted its cover to the topic, asking, “Can you still move up in America?”
End of October? Who even TALKS about the "occupiers" today?  All they've done is "demand" and "talk" about the issue--no legislation--obviously, the issue takes a back seat to Obummer's dismal record on economics and foreign policy. (laugh)
QUOTE Occupy Our Homes: The movement has drawn attention to many of the predatory, discriminatory, and fraudulent practices perpetrated by banks during the foreclosure crisis, and across the country, Occupy groups, religious leaders, and community organizations have helped homeowners prevent wrongful foreclosures on their homes. Activists in Detroit are working to save their fifth home, and similar actions have taken place in cities like Minneapolis, Los Angeles, Cleveland, and Atlanta. The movement has drawn so much attention that local political leaders and even members of Congress have stepped in to help homeowners facing foreclosure.
Yep--"demanding" that banks foregive money that they loaned as required by slobbering Barney Frank and Chris Dodd (you know, the friend of Countrywide?) Those banks MADE those people buy houses they couldn't afford, according to liberal rhetoric.
You hold up DETROIT as a winning strategy? THAT'S CRAZY!
QUOTE Move Your Money: On Bank Transfer Day, activists helped more than 40,000 Americans move their money from large banks to credit unions, and more than 650,000 switched to credit unions last October. Religious groups have taken up the cause as well, moving $55 million before Thanksgiving. This year, a San Francisco interfaith group moved $10 million from Wells Fargo and other groups marked Lent by moving more money from Wall Street. As a result, analysts say the nation’s 10 biggest banks could lose $185 billion in customer deposits this year “due to customer defections.”
Have any of these banks gone under? (If they did, Obambi would likely bail them out!) I havent' seen bank stocks go down--or interest rates, for that matter. I haven't read of any issues in the Financial Times--this looks like a completely ineffective protest--but what do you expect from people camped out in a park and beating on drums? It reminds me of the Aztecs, who pretty much did the same thing--standing outside at night and beating drums to cause the sun to rise in the morning. Same cause/effect--or lack thereof! (sarcasm)
QUOTE Also, there are a few cities finally coming up with new banking ordinances and legislature, and changing how the cities themselves deal with their money:
Los Angeles drafted a responsible banking ordinance in March that assesses banks that do business with the city based on foreclosure data; in February, Kansas City, Missouri, passed a resolution ordering the city manager to only do business with banks that don't engage in predatory lending; and in November, New York City introduced legislation that would force banks that want to hold city deposits to submit community reinvestment plans.
And just days ago, in Massachusetts, the city of Brockton was persuaded to move its money out of Bank of America and JPMorgan Chase altogether after they refused to negotiations on loan modifications for homeowners facing foreclosure.
LOS ANGELES--now THERE is an example of fiscal responsibility to emulate! 
QUOTE ---------
If you really wanted to help--where were you when Barney Frank and Chris Dodd blocked investigation into Fannie and Freddie?
QUOTE Thousands of Occupy and anti-tarsands protestors held hands and circled the White House asking Obama to stop the XL pipeline. It was postponed at least.
"Circled the white house and held hands?" No Kum-bay-yah?
QUOTE What I think is most important about Occupy is that it has finally gotten people to realize we have some very big problems that need to be addressed ASAP. People are realizing the same-old-same-old just isn't working. People are waking up and trying to figure out what can be done to fix a whole shipload of problems that have cropped up while most of us have been sleeping.
And now, we also have the scary things happening that I thought would NEVER happen in America.
When the TEA PARTY thought the same thing, libbies hated it. I guess COPYING IS THE MOST SINCERE FORM OF FLATTERY!
The difference between the Tea Party and the "occupiers" is that the Tea Party has been lawful--while the "occupiers" have not. The Tea Party has been clean and picked up any trash left after one of their protests--the "occupiers" live in filth. The Tea Party has been effective--the "occupiers"--not so much!
QUOTE The NDAA, The Enemy Expatriation Act (not passed yet) the latest Executive Order, and an crazy amount of reporters being arrested for covering Occupy Protests. So many have been arrested and some even beaten that we are now ranked 47 in the world for freedom of the press: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news...wn.htmlI don't understand why that doesn't concern every one of us. Has the president or any governor spoken out against reporters being arrested the last few years? No. Even the main stream media doesn't discuss it.
MAYBE is isn't the big problem you think it is. Wouldn't you think that the PRESS, with its "BULLY PULPIT" would be able to do something about this? I guess not!
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 53
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Rosalind_Swenson
Group: Members
Posts: 1527
Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Apr. 09 2012,9:39 pm |
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Liberal, can we get an eyeroll emoticon as one of the choices?
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And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
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| Post Number: 54
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blahblahblah
Group: Members
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Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Apr. 09 2012,10:10 pm |
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(Rosalind_Swenson @ Apr. 09 2012,12:18 am)
QUOTE Naw, I don't need any MORE. I'd just like you to provide any case of a SUCCESSFUL LAWSUIT or EPA FINDING. What you have provided, as mentioned, is only anecdotal evidence. If this is the problem you make it out to be, where is the vaunted Federal Government? Like most libbies, you seem to trust them--why aren't you angry at THEM for their FAILURE to do what they are charged with doing? Is it because FAILURE IS AN OPTION--just like most Federal programs? QUOTE Still NO scientific evidence that fracking is dangerous--despite its widespread use, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DO DRINK THAT GROUNDWATER with no bad effects. Has there been even ONE successful court case proving that fracking caused issues--despite its widespread use, millions of people exposed, and an army of lawyers that would just love to jump on the issue?" QUOTE Seriously Jim? Because the companies doing the fracking have the BIGGEST army of lawyers. But, anyways, here's a short list of documented proof of problems for you. No court case yet, but I have a feeling there will be some very very soon: Logan Mountain Colorado, 2008http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_135357282008? You mean that in 4 YEARS they can't prove their case? ---------- QUOTE Pavillion Wyoming Health Survey:
People here are sick. Our water, air, soil, and our health are all connected, says John Fenton, Pavillion resident with a contaminated drinking water well. Thanks to the EPA we will know what chemicals are in our water. Now we need to know the chemicals in our air, our homes and our bodies. Well, what did the EPA have to say?  Guess all we have to go on is ONE PERSONS OPINION. QUOTE Since the development of the oil and gas resources in the area, Pavillion residents have reported contamination and health impacts that they suspect are coming from Encana's Pavillion/Muddy Ridge gas-field. Residents' symptoms have ranged from rashes and headaches to neurological disorders and cancers. The survey found 94% of participants reported health impacts that are known effects of chemicals identified last year in drinking water wells. If this is clear-cut--why hasn't the vaunted EPA shut it down? QUOTE A significant survey finding also includes 81% of participants reporting respiratory ailments. This indicates that a primary pathway of human exposure to chemicals in the area may be occurring through air pathways, such as industrial releases and from showering or washing dishes with contaminated water. Based on the survey, the landowners and groups are calling for regulators to identify the source of contamination, conduct residential and regional air-monitoring, and to implement medical monitoring in which residents with health impacts can receive blood and urine testing.
"We have spent thousands on doctors and tests", says Jeff Locker, a Pavillion landowner with contaminated water. Locker and his wife have struggled with respiratory and neurological symptoms, constant nausea and headaches, and aggressive pre-cancerous growths. "It's big profit over people's health. Our health officials need to step forward. " Let's see the results of those tests--and what EPA has to say about them. QUOTE While Encana and regulators claim that the source of the water contamination has not been identified, oil and gas production is the only industrial activity in the area. The EPA is planning to release additional drinking water tests to the public on August 31st. The State of Wyoming's Department of Environmental Quality is slated to place an air monitor in the Pavillion area in late September that will assess regional air quality.
------- The EPA has just recently verified that fracking has poisoned this town's water, air and land.----------------- Let's see the report. You said you could provide more. QUOTE Poplar Montana:
Oil companies have agreed to pay $320,000 to the northeastern Montana city of Poplar to relocate water wells and take other steps to deal with a 40 million gallon plume of pollution seeping into drinking supplies.
Environmental Protection Agency scientist Sarah Roberts said Tuesday that Poplar's water so far remains safe to drink but faces imminent danger.
Federal officials have been tracking the underground plume's spread from the East Poplar oil field for decades. It is moving toward Poplar and reached city water supplies in 2010. "Tracking for decades? How long has fracking been accomplished there?  QUOTE Some wells outside town already have been rendered undrinkable by the plume of salty pollution http://billingsgazette.com/news...44.html-------------- August 2010: A new report by the Pennsylvania Land Trust Association said the state has identified 1,435 violations by 43 Marcellus Shale drilling companies since January 2008, prompting environmental groups to call for quick legislative action to protect water and land resources. According to Monday's report, 952 of the violations were identified as having or likely to have an impact on the environment. Those included 100 violations of the state Clean Stream Law, 268 for improper construction of waste water impoundments; 277 for poor erosion and sedimentation plans during well pad, road and piping construction; 16 for improper blowout prevention; and 154 for discharging industrial waste, including drilling waste water containing toxic chemicals, onto the ground or into streams.http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/10215/1077192-454.stmAll of those violations, yet they couldn't find ONE for fracking! ----------- QUOTE Franklin Township Pennsylvania March 2012:
The Department of Environmental Protection has asked a natural gas drilling company to step in and help three Franklin Twp. families whose well water contains high levels of methane.
State environmental regulators have not determined the source of the gas and are not saying WPX Energy is responsible for the methane, DEP spokeswoman Colleen Connolly said. But in a letter to the driller Friday, regulators asked that WPX help address the problem.
"They can offer to put in (methane) mitigation systems. They can offer to buy bottled water. We did ask them to vent at least one well," Ms. Connolly said.
"We're looking at a situation where some temporary fixes need to be put in, and we're putting the ball in WPXs court" They have no evidence, but WPX is supposed to prove that they are NOT guilty? QUOTE The department began investigating elevated methane in the water wells in December when residents along Route 29 in the hamlet of Franklin Forks noticed discolored water and intermittent eruptions of gas and water from their well. http://thetimes-tribune.com/news...f1SCBiU---------We're not saying you are responsible, but pretty please help them out? Two days later they put in vents and offer free supplies of clean water. Just to be nice? http://thetimes-tribune.com/news...1289112Ms. Hadlick's water also contained high levels of salts. Her methane level, 58.3 milligrams per liter, is more than twice the concentration state regulators have called the "true level of concern": when the water is so full of gas it begins to release it to the air. "It makes your hair really dried out and yucky feeling," Ms. Hadlick said. "My son has had sores in his mouth from using the water to brush his teeth." -------------------- Pennsylvania doctors now have a gag order on them so they can't tell patients what chemicals they might be exposed to. Under a new law, doctors in Pennsylvania can access information about chemicals used in natural gas extraction -- but they won't be able to share it with their patients. A provision buried in a law passed last month is drawing scrutiny from the public health and environmental community, who argue that it will "gag" doctors who want to raise concerns related to oil and gas extraction with the people they treat and the general public.REALLY? With all of these links, why isn't there a link to this supposed "gag" order? Why isn't the EPA allowing doctors to talk about this, if there really is an issue? QUOTE There is good reason to be curious about exactly what's in those fluids. A 2010 congressional investigation revealed that Halliburton and other fracking companies had used 32 million gallons of diesel products, which include toxic chemicals like benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, and xylene, in the fluids they inject into the ground. Low levels of exposure to those chemicals can trigger acute effects like headaches, dizziness, and drowsiness, while higher levels of exposure can cause cancer. Yet NOT ONE MENTION OF METHANE. QUOTE The latest move in Pennsylvania has raised suspicions among the industry's critics once again. As Walter Tsou, president of the Philadelphia chapter of Physicians for Social Responsibility, put it, "What is the big secret here that they're unwilling to tell people, unless they know that if people found out what's really in these chemicals, they would be outraged?" http://www.theatlantic.com/health...0----------------- All that leftover fracking water has to be stored some place. Alot of it is being pumped deep underground in Ohio:Yet, "carbon sequestration"--pumping carbon back deep underground, is OK with these same eco-nuts? QUOTE All that underground space has made Ohio a leading importer of wastewater from other states. Last year, oil and gas companies injected 511 million gallons into Ohio’s wells, the most on record, according to the state’s Department of Natural Resources. More than half came from elsewhere. Of the 94.2 million gallons of drilling wastewater that Pennsylvania’s Marcellus shale operators sent to disposal wells last year, 98 percent went to Ohio. Oil and gas companies haven’t put up as much of a fight over the proposed regulations, perhaps because they were introduced in the aftermath of a series of bizarre earthquakes near Youngstown that have been linked to the underground wastewater. There had been no record of quakes in the area before D&L Energy, based in Youngstown, began injecting wastewater into a well about 9,200 feet underground in December 2010. Starting in March, there were 12 quakes within a mile of the well ranging from magnitude 2.1 to a 4.0 quake that hit on New Year’s Eve. ----Ohio's earthquakes: The ODNR's 20-page preliminary investigation report released Friday based its findings on evidence from seismic monitors, the locations of the epicenters of 12 minor earthquakes within one mile of the disposal well, and the discovery of a heretofore unknown fault in the underlying bedrock. "We made the determination that, while it's difficult to induce seismic activity, the depth of this well reached a previously unmapped fault and there is a likelihood it lubricated the fault, resulting in seismic activity," ODNR spokesman Carlo LoParo said. The earthquakes registered magnitudes of 2.7 to 4.0, rattling dishes in homes but causing no structural damage. A 4.0-magnitude earthquake has a seismic energy yield equivalent to detonating a small atomic bomb. The first earthquakes occurred three months after the high-pressure injection of wastewater began. Several quakes occurred in December 2011, with the last and most powerful on New Year's Eve, less than 24 hours after state regulators asked the company to shut down the well. http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/12070/1215767-503-0.stm--------- Fracking is also responsible for many earthquakes in Oklahoma and the UK. Just google it. ----------- Unfortunately there are plenty more instances of fracking poisoning water, land and air, so just ask if you want more. Also, it is getting harder for the media, EPA and drillers to hide it. Too many people are sick, it is happening too often, too many people are finally finding out about it, and too many people are mad. -------------------------------------------- You seem to believe that all of societies ills--from bad-tasting water to earthquakes, are the result of "big oil companies." Inexplicably, you put your faith in the Federal Government--which doesn't seem to share your views as they've done nothing to support your views or to stop the practice. Which is it-- A. Is the science NOT settled, or B. has the Federal Government colluded with "big oil" to not allow the practice? Since you are a good liberal and don't like the practice, I'd expect that you would not use natural gas for heating--would boycott electrical companies that use it for producing electricity when the windmills don't work--and wouldn't use petroleum products from companies that engage in the practice. They used to have bumper stickers in Texas that said "For those that don't like oil, let 'em freeze to death in the dark!"
Am I the only one that is confused by this? Doesn't this seem like Jim's response, but posted by Rosalind?
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| Post Number: 55
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blahblahblah
Group: Members
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Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Apr. 09 2012,10:49 pm |
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Rosalind,
Back a few pages you listed off several of Occupy's causes (post #17). I have to say, I think you have a very romanticized view of this movement. To be fair though, in the list there are several items that I agree are problems. Identifying the problems seems to the easy part. We (me and Occupy) however tend to differ in how we would solve these problems. I think the Occupy movement helped increase awareness of many of these issues, but not so much in a way that fosters public debate about the issues. It's more along the lines of occupiers wanting to stand in the middle of the road and periodically rant about a laundry list of issues.
Most of my information about Occupy comes directly from Occupy, although I have followed the Minnesota faction of the movement considerably more than other factions. It's true though across the country Occupy Homes seems to have been the most active. I can't speak for the homes that were selected outside of Minnesota, but I have not heard any evidence of any fraud in any of the Minnesota foreclosures that have been occupied, sad stories certainly, bad customer service on behalf of the bank for sure, but no fraud. Do you happen to know what the fraud was?
I have been hoping that Occupy would begin to form something along the lines of a political party (albeit one that I would probably spend a lot of time disagreeing with, but I think we would benefit from more political parties), but sadly it does not seem to be in the cards. I tuned in for large parts of the re-occupation last Saturday, all I can say is, what a joke. This is an organization that is mostly interested in camping and marching, and endless debates and confrontations with the cops about whether camping and marching are constitutionally protected. The whole camping thing is a total distraction from actually doing anything. OccupyMN had the whole winter to get their act together, and on Saturday they picked up literally where they left off last fall, trying to camp and trying to march, and once again debating the rights they do or don't have to do either of these activities. The difference however is that Minneapolis cops were not in the mood for a debate (or a game of capture the flag) and took off the “kid gloves”. I doubt many moderate people who are basically supportive of Occupy are going to get involved in the BS that occurred last weekend. I would say the evidence suggest that mere lip service is paid to that long list of items in your pervious post, while the primary focus is on camping and marching.
Occupy has two choices, advocate for change inside our current system, which means getting politically active, or advocate for a new system. If they want to work in our current system they better get their crap together because they are less than seven months away from an important election. If they want a new system they will probably need more weapons. I suppose the third option is that they are severely misguided whiners currently throwing a huge temper tantrum.
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| Post Number: 56
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Rosalind_Swenson
Group: Members
Posts: 1527
Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Apr. 09 2012,11:11 pm |
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(blahblahblah @ Apr. 09 2012,10:10 pm)
QUOTE
(Rosalind_Swenson @ Apr. 09 2012,12:18 am)
QUOTE Naw, I don't need any MORE. I'd just like you to provide any case of a SUCCESSFUL LAWSUIT or EPA FINDING. What you have provided, as mentioned, is only anecdotal evidence. If this is the problem you make it out to be, where is the vaunted Federal Government? Like most libbies, you seem to trust them--why aren't you angry at THEM for their FAILURE to do what they are charged with doing? Is it because FAILURE IS AN OPTION--just like most Federal programs? QUOTE Still NO scientific evidence that fracking is dangerous--despite its widespread use, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DO DRINK THAT GROUNDWATER with no bad effects. Has there been even ONE successful court case proving that fracking caused issues--despite its widespread use, millions of people exposed, and an army of lawyers that would just love to jump on the issue?" QUOTE Seriously Jim? Because the companies doing the fracking have the BIGGEST army of lawyers. But, anyways, here's a short list of documented proof of problems for you. No court case yet, but I have a feeling there will be some very very soon: Logan Mountain Colorado, 2008http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_135357282008? You mean that in 4 YEARS they can't prove their case? ---------- QUOTE Pavillion Wyoming Health Survey:
People here are sick. Our water, air, soil, and our health are all connected, says John Fenton, Pavillion resident with a contaminated drinking water well. Thanks to the EPA we will know what chemicals are in our water. Now we need to know the chemicals in our air, our homes and our bodies. Well, what did the EPA have to say? Guess all we have to go on is ONE PERSONS OPINION. QUOTE Since the development of the oil and gas resources in the area, Pavillion residents have reported contamination and health impacts that they suspect are coming from Encana's Pavillion/Muddy Ridge gas-field. Residents' symptoms have ranged from rashes and headaches to neurological disorders and cancers. The survey found 94% of participants reported health impacts that are known effects of chemicals identified last year in drinking water wells. If this is clear-cut--why hasn't the vaunted EPA shut it down? QUOTE A significant survey finding also includes 81% of participants reporting respiratory ailments. This indicates that a primary pathway of human exposure to chemicals in the area may be occurring through air pathways, such as industrial releases and from showering or washing dishes with contaminated water. Based on the survey, the landowners and groups are calling for regulators to identify the source of contamination, conduct residential and regional air-monitoring, and to implement medical monitoring in which residents with health impacts can receive blood and urine testing.
"We have spent thousands on doctors and tests", says Jeff Locker, a Pavillion landowner with contaminated water. Locker and his wife have struggled with respiratory and neurological symptoms, constant nausea and headaches, and aggressive pre-cancerous growths. "It's big profit over people's health. Our health officials need to step forward. " Let's see the results of those tests--and what EPA has to say about them. QUOTE While Encana and regulators claim that the source of the water contamination has not been identified, oil and gas production is the only industrial activity in the area. The EPA is planning to release additional drinking water tests to the public on August 31st. The State of Wyoming's Department of Environmental Quality is slated to place an air monitor in the Pavillion area in late September that will assess regional air quality.
------- The EPA has just recently verified that fracking has poisoned this town's water, air and land.----------------- Let's see the report. You said you could provide more. QUOTE Poplar Montana:
Oil companies have agreed to pay $320,000 to the northeastern Montana city of Poplar to relocate water wells and take other steps to deal with a 40 million gallon plume of pollution seeping into drinking supplies.
Environmental Protection Agency scientist Sarah Roberts said Tuesday that Poplar's water so far remains safe to drink but faces imminent danger.
Federal officials have been tracking the underground plume's spread from the East Poplar oil field for decades. It is moving toward Poplar and reached city water supplies in 2010. "Tracking for decades? How long has fracking been accomplished there? QUOTE Some wells outside town already have been rendered undrinkable by the plume of salty pollution http://billingsgazette.com/news...44.html-------------- August 2010: A new report by the Pennsylvania Land Trust Association said the state has identified 1,435 violations by 43 Marcellus Shale drilling companies since January 2008, prompting environmental groups to call for quick legislative action to protect water and land resources. According to Monday's report, 952 of the violations were identified as having or likely to have an impact on the environment. Those included 100 violations of the state Clean Stream Law, 268 for improper construction of waste water impoundments; 277 for poor erosion and sedimentation plans during well pad, road and piping construction; 16 for improper blowout prevention; and 154 for discharging industrial waste, including drilling waste water containing toxic chemicals, onto the ground or into streams.http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/10215/1077192-454.stmAll of those violations, yet they couldn't find ONE for fracking! ----------- QUOTE Franklin Township Pennsylvania March 2012:
The Department of Environmental Protection has asked a natural gas drilling company to step in and help three Franklin Twp. families whose well water contains high levels of methane.
State environmental regulators have not determined the source of the gas and are not saying WPX Energy is responsible for the methane, DEP spokeswoman Colleen Connolly said. But in a letter to the driller Friday, regulators asked that WPX help address the problem.
"They can offer to put in (methane) mitigation systems. They can offer to buy bottled water. We did ask them to vent at least one well," Ms. Connolly said.
"We're looking at a situation where some temporary fixes need to be put in, and we're putting the ball in WPXs court" They have no evidence, but WPX is supposed to prove that they are NOT guilty? QUOTE The department began investigating elevated methane in the water wells in December when residents along Route 29 in the hamlet of Franklin Forks noticed discolored water and intermittent eruptions of gas and water from their well. http://thetimes-tribune.com/news...f1SCBiU---------We're not saying you are responsible, but pretty please help them out? Two days later they put in vents and offer free supplies of clean water. Just to be nice? http://thetimes-tribune.com/news...1289112Ms. Hadlick's water also contained high levels of salts. Her methane level, 58.3 milligrams per liter, is more than twice the concentration state regulators have called the "true level of concern": when the water is so full of gas it begins to release it to the air. "It makes your hair really dried out and yucky feeling," Ms. Hadlick said. "My son has had sores in his mouth from using the water to brush his teeth." -------------------- Pennsylvania doctors now have a gag order on them so they can't tell patients what chemicals they might be exposed to. Under a new law, doctors in Pennsylvania can access information about chemicals used in natural gas extraction -- but they won't be able to share it with their patients. A provision buried in a law passed last month is drawing scrutiny from the public health and environmental community, who argue that it will "gag" doctors who want to raise concerns related to oil and gas extraction with the people they treat and the general public.REALLY? With all of these links, why isn't there a link to this supposed "gag" order? Why isn't the EPA allowing doctors to talk about this, if there really is an issue? QUOTE There is good reason to be curious about exactly what's in those fluids. A 2010 congressional investigation revealed that Halliburton and other fracking companies had used 32 million gallons of diesel products, which include toxic chemicals like benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, and xylene, in the fluids they inject into the ground. Low levels of exposure to those chemicals can trigger acute effects like headaches, dizziness, and drowsiness, while higher levels of exposure can cause cancer. Yet NOT ONE MENTION OF METHANE. QUOTE The latest move in Pennsylvania has raised suspicions among the industry's critics once again. As Walter Tsou, president of the Philadelphia chapter of Physicians for Social Responsibility, put it, "What is the big secret here that they're unwilling to tell people, unless they know that if people found out what's really in these chemicals, they would be outraged?" http://www.theatlantic.com/health...0----------------- All that leftover fracking water has to be stored some place. Alot of it is being pumped deep underground in Ohio:Yet, "carbon sequestration"--pumping carbon back deep underground, is OK with these same eco-nuts? QUOTE All that underground space has made Ohio a leading importer of wastewater from other states. Last year, oil and gas companies injected 511 million gallons into Ohio’s wells, the most on record, according to the state’s Department of Natural Resources. More than half came from elsewhere. Of the 94.2 million gallons of drilling wastewater that Pennsylvania’s Marcellus shale operators sent to disposal wells last year, 98 percent went to Ohio. Oil and gas companies haven’t put up as much of a fight over the proposed regulations, perhaps because they were introduced in the aftermath of a series of bizarre earthquakes near Youngstown that have been linked to the underground wastewater. There had been no record of quakes in the area before D&L Energy, based in Youngstown, began injecting wastewater into a well about 9,200 feet underground in December 2010. Starting in March, there were 12 quakes within a mile of the well ranging from magnitude 2.1 to a 4.0 quake that hit on New Year’s Eve. ----Ohio's earthquakes: The ODNR's 20-page preliminary investigation report released Friday based its findings on evidence from seismic monitors, the locations of the epicenters of 12 minor earthquakes within one mile of the disposal well, and the discovery of a heretofore unknown fault in the underlying bedrock. "We made the determination that, while it's difficult to induce seismic activity, the depth of this well reached a previously unmapped fault and there is a likelihood it lubricated the fault, resulting in seismic activity," ODNR spokesman Carlo LoParo said. The earthquakes registered magnitudes of 2.7 to 4.0, rattling dishes in homes but causing no structural damage. A 4.0-magnitude earthquake has a seismic energy yield equivalent to detonating a small atomic bomb. The first earthquakes occurred three months after the high-pressure injection of wastewater began. Several quakes occurred in December 2011, with the last and most powerful on New Year's Eve, less than 24 hours after state regulators asked the company to shut down the well. http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/12070/1215767-503-0.stm--------- Fracking is also responsible for many earthquakes in Oklahoma and the UK. Just google it. ----------- Unfortunately there are plenty more instances of fracking poisoning water, land and air, so just ask if you want more. Also, it is getting harder for the media, EPA and drillers to hide it. Too many people are sick, it is happening too often, too many people are finally finding out about it, and too many people are mad. -------------------------------------------- You seem to believe that all of societies ills--from bad-tasting water to earthquakes, are the result of "big oil companies." Inexplicably, you put your faith in the Federal Government--which doesn't seem to share your views as they've done nothing to support your views or to stop the practice. Which is it-- A. Is the science NOT settled, or B. has the Federal Government colluded with "big oil" to not allow the practice? Since you are a good liberal and don't like the practice, I'd expect that you would not use natural gas for heating--would boycott electrical companies that use it for producing electricity when the windmills don't work--and wouldn't use petroleum products from companies that engage in the practice. They used to have bumper stickers in Texas that said "For those that don't like oil, let 'em freeze to death in the dark!"Am I the only one that is confused by this? Doesn't this seem like Jim's response, but posted by Rosalind?
Didn't you read the article? There are four companies drilling in that area and none of them will accept blame. Nobody is trying to find out who is responsible. That is what I'm talking about. The same with all of these other places. These people in all of these places contacted local officials, agencies like the EPA that is supposed to be watching out for these sorts of problems, but they can't get any help. Only local papers carry most of these stories, that's why it's so hard to find out about them.
Here's a draft of the EPA report on Pavillion Wyoming, I don't think the final draft has been released yet.
http://www.epa.gov/region8/superfund/wy/pavillion/
Vaunted EPA? They are as crooked and full of BS as pretty much every other government agency. Too many people were making too much noise, so the EPA had no choice but to finally acknowledge that town's drinking water. That's also why I think there will finally start to be some litigation going on against some of these drilling companies.
Why isn't the EPA allowing doctors to talk about this? There are tons of doctors talking about all the problems with fracking. There are also doctors fighting the "gag order". It's a new law in Pennsylvania, under the guise of "protecting trade secret information". The companies don't want their toxic recipe getting into the wrong hands supposedly. That's part of what has been BS about this whole thing. These drilling companies don't have to tell ANYONE what they are pumping into the ground. They have been protected. They have been exempt from the Safe Drinking Water Act. NOBODY but them know what they are putting into the ground. So, also, when drinking water gets contaminated they say "Wasn't us, we don't use that sort of chemical"
http://www.propublica.org/article...too-far
Did I ever say carbon sequestration was ok? To be honest, this is the first I"ve ever heard of it. Thank you for giving me something else to look into.
You seem to believe that all of societies ills--from bad-tasting water to earthquakes, are the result of "big oil companies." Inexplicably, you put your faith in the Federal Government--which doesn't seem to share your views as they've done nothing to support your views or to stop the practice.
Have you not read anything I've ever posted? Me put my faith in the Federal government??!! Not a chance.
Since you are a good liberal and don't like the practice, I'd expect that you would not use natural gas for heating--would boycott electrical companies that use it for producing electricity when the windmills don't work--and wouldn't use petroleum products from companies that engage in the practice.
They used to have bumper stickers in Texas that said "For those that don't like oil, let 'em freeze to death in the dark!"
Again, you must not read most of what I post, or you would already know what I have to say on that subject.
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And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
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| Post Number: 57
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Rosalind_Swenson
Group: Members
Posts: 1527
Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Apr. 09 2012,11:29 pm |
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They don't put methane into the ground while fracking. They release methane that is deep in the ground which then seeps into the water through all the cracks and fissures created by fracking.
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And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
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| Post Number: 58
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Rosalind_Swenson
Group: Members
Posts: 1527
Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Apr. 09 2012,11:52 pm |
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(blahblahblah @ Apr. 09 2012,10:49 pm)
QUOTE Rosalind,
Back a few pages you listed off several of Occupy's causes (post #17). I have to say, I think you have a very romanticized view of this movement. To be fair though, in the list there are several items that I agree are problems. Identifying the problems seems to the easy part. We (me and Occupy) however tend to differ in how we would solve these problems. I think the Occupy movement helped increase awareness of many of these issues, but not so much in a way that fosters public debate about the issues. It's more along the lines of occupiers wanting to stand in the middle of the road and periodically rant about a laundry list of issues.
Most of my information about Occupy comes directly from Occupy, although I have followed the Minnesota faction of the movement considerably more than other factions. It's true though across the country Occupy Homes seems to have been the most active. I can't speak for the homes that were selected outside of Minnesota, but I have not heard any evidence of any fraud in any of the Minnesota foreclosures that have been occupied, sad stories certainly, bad customer service on behalf of the bank for sure, but no fraud. Do you happen to know what the fraud was?
I have been hoping that Occupy would begin to form something along the lines of a political party (albeit one that I would probably spend a lot of time disagreeing with, but I think we would benefit from more political parties), but sadly it does not seem to be in the cards. I tuned in for large parts of the re-occupation last Saturday, all I can say is, what a joke. This is an organization that is mostly interested in camping and marching, and endless debates and confrontations with the cops about whether camping and marching are constitutionally protected. The whole camping thing is a total distraction from actually doing anything. OccupyMN had the whole winter to get their act together, and on Saturday they picked up literally where they left off last fall, trying to camp and trying to march, and once again debating the rights they do or don't have to do either of these activities. The difference however is that Minneapolis cops were not in the mood for a debate (or a game of capture the flag) and took off the “kid gloves”. I doubt many moderate people who are basically supportive of Occupy are going to get involved in the BS that occurred last weekend. I would say the evidence suggest that mere lip service is paid to that long list of items in your pervious post, while the primary focus is on camping and marching.
Occupy has two choices, advocate for change inside our current system, which means getting politically active, or advocate for a new system. If they want to work in our current system they better get their crap together because they are less than seven months away from an important election. If they want a new system they will probably need more weapons. I suppose the third option is that they are severely misguided whiners currently throwing a huge temper tantrum.
QUOTE I think the Occupy movement helped increase awareness of many of these issues, but not so much in a way that fosters public debate about the issues.
It's really too bad the mainstream lying media had to show up and gut this movement. I'd like to know how things would be right now if that hadn't happened.
QUOTE Identifying the problems seems to the easy part. We (me and Occupy) however tend to differ in how we would solve these problems.
That's why we need more people working on the problems. The only certain thing is: we can't just leave it all up to government, we have to start participating and work hard to fix the problems.
QUOTE It's more along the lines of occupiers wanting to stand in the middle of the road and periodically rant about a laundry list of issues.
There are ALOT of occupiers working their butts off trying to come up with solutions.
QUOTE Most of my information about Occupy comes directly from Occupy, although I have followed the Minnesota faction of the movement considerably more than other factions
Minnesota Occupy is the one I have dealt with the least. Way too many huge egos, instigators and hard headed a-holes. Way too many problems in the two main Occupy Minnesota groups. It's kind of hard to fix external problems when there are so many internal ones.
QUOTE I can't speak for the homes that were selected outside of Minnesota, but I have not heard any evidence of any fraud in any of the Minnesota foreclosures that have been occupied, sad stories certainly, bad customer service on behalf of the bank for sure, but no fraud. Do you happen to know what the fraud was?
Sadly, I don't understand parts of the movement. Usually the parts I don't understand have to do with money. Banking and homes. However, I do think if banks were allowed to be bailed out, then the people losing their homes should also be given a chance to keep their homes. Make a payment plan that works for both the bank and home buyer maybe. I don't know. I will try to check into the "fraud" allegations, but just to let you know, I probably won't understand what I am reading.
QUOTE I have been hoping that Occupy would begin to form something along the lines of a political party (albeit one that I would probably spend a lot of time disagreeing with, but I think we would benefit from more political parties), but sadly it does not seem to be in the cards.
Occupy got involved with these two things:
beyourgovernment.org
occupygovernment.org
I like both of these ideas. Unfortunately, this started right before occupy was almost crushed. Another thing is that, I guess alot of us are so fed up with all the corruption and crap happening in every branch of government, we feel that "infiltrating" the political spectrum would just take too damn long. How many years has the corruption been allowed to take hold? Too freakin many.
QUOTE I doubt many moderate people who are basically supportive of Occupy are going to get involved in the BS that occurred last weekend.
I was spending time with Chicago's occupy on Saturday, but like I said, I've not had much to do with Minnesota's.
QUOTE I suppose the third option is that they are severely misguided whiners currently throwing a huge temper tantrum.
No, I would say the majority of us are not.
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And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
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| Post Number: 59
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Santorini
Group: Members
Posts: 2015
Joined: Nov. 2007
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Posted on: Apr. 10 2012,10:31 am |
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What is with these super long posts??!! Cant people make their point by summarizing the content??
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"Things turn out best for those who make the best
of the way things turned out." Jack Buck
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| Post Number: 60
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Apr. 10 2012,1:01 pm |
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I agree.
When someone makes a number of outrageous comments, you either have to respond to them collectively or individually. If Rosalind will confine herself to one outrageous comment at a time, I'll take each one as she posts it.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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