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| Post Number: 11
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Rosalind_Swenson 
Group: Members
Posts: 1527
Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Mar. 31 2012,1:12 am |
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(Liberal @ Mar. 31 2012,12:59 am)
QUOTE QUOTE The occupiers love to stage incidences such as this to get the media pity-party they are begging for...it brings the attention they want to their cause?! What other reason is there to protest? 
LOL, thanks for that Liberal, I hadn't caught the irony in that remark lol.
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And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
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| Post Number: 12
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| Post Number: 13
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Santorini
Group: Members
Posts: 2015
Joined: Nov. 2007
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Posted on: Mar. 31 2012,10:02 am |
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(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 31 2012,1:09 am)
QUOTE Santorini: Check the meds?...hit a little too close to home for ya there Ros! Cause no one is taking this occupy seriously?
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Me: Um...no. Besides, Occupy is still going strong. No one is taking occupy seriously? Many people are. Hopefully soon everyone will be.
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Santorini: Ya never answered the question...were they not asked to leave?? Did they not just completely disrespect authority because they refused when asked?
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Me: So whenever the "powers that be" don't like what we the people have to say and tell us to leave and shut up, we should? Very interesting.
Another thing to take into account, the school chancellor had asked for police to remove tents, NOT STUDENTS. The chancellor, and pretty much everyone (except you) were horrified at what was done to the students. The chancellor, and pretty much everyone (except you) believes the students have the right to protest and air grievances.
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Santorini: Do ya ever see professionals camping out and about like these kids?
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Me: Yep. Even that day, there were some professors from the school that had joined in the protests with the students.
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blahblahblah, not all of the protestors do those things you mentioned. Sadly some do. I will say one thing though, the day thousands were marching down the streets in NY (and yes, blocking traffic while marching. Kind of hard for thousands to march and not impede traffic) I was watching the livestream, and I must say, I was filled with hope, and my eyes with tears. Every single vehicle was honking, waving, giving thumbs up, and encouraging the marchers. Even cab drivers were holding their hands out the windows to shake hands with them and tell them thank you. And the cab drivers were having their work interrupted! But they were grateful, because they know things have gotten out of control, and our government is not even close to being "for the people, by the people" anymore.
And, no offense, but, it is kind of sad that your biggest response: "I think several interesting questions have come up (at least as far as I am concerned)."
was followed up by the behavior of some of the protestors, and ridiculing them and what they are doing.
Perhaps instead, you could try to realize what their message is, and how what has been happening in this country and still is happening in this country, with how corrupt our government is, is far more offensive than this group of people who want things fixed.
OWS is nothing more than a potpourit of juvenile demands and hypocrasy!
AdBusters, an anti-consumerist publication that sounded the initial call for the protest is funded in part by Tides, a major recipient of Soros funding, add to that Soros MoveOn.org. (unquote)
You Might Be an Occupier If:
--You claim to be for the environment, yet trash the area you are living and protesting.
--You claim to be fighting against greed, yet demand that all your debt be forgiven, that everything you want be given to you & paid by someone else
--You claim you want financial accountability, yet demand your own financial obligations be forgiven or repaid for you
--You claim to be a supporter of civil rights, but you dont respect the rights of those who dont agree with you
--You claim to be against wealth fat-cats, yet cheer when multimillionare Michael Moore shows up to speak
--You claim to be against the outsourcing of American jobs, yet live in a tent & use cell phones made by slave labor in China
--You claim that the public has the right to be in the parks, but you dont move your tent to let other people use them
--You claim the laws should apply to everyone, yet fight the police when they ask you to leave at curfew time
--You claim the TeaBaggers are violent because they own guns and dont use them, yet you throw rocks and bottles at duly appointed representatives of the people when they ask you to obey the law
--You claim to be fighting the good fight against corporate America, while drinking a beverage from Starbucks
Occupy is unpatriotic and the ows routinely view the US as the enemy. The American Flag has been trashed, desecrated. A Coast Guard female officer was harrassed and spit on in Boston...at a Portland rally the speaker said **CK AMERICA!!
(unquote)
Few reasons why its so hard to take the ows seriously...they dont take themselves seriously!
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"Things turn out best for those who make the best
of the way things turned out." Jack Buck
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| Post Number: 14
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MADDOG
Group: Moderator
Posts: 7821
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 31 2012,11:58 am |
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(Grinning_Dragon @ Mar. 30 2012,6:18 pm)
QUOTE Freedom of speech is paramount in a free society.
But when that public redress becomes violent or destructive in nature, those actions are not protected. The same with trespassing on private property is not protected. I also believe speech zones are also UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
I also agree with the ruling. Free speech does not have a curfew, as this would be an infringement upon the 1st Amendment, and since the capitol is funded by taxpayers, they must have the ability to protest PEACEFULLY.
Free speech is absolute it is the actions that are not absolute.
GD, I agree free speech is paramount. When public redress or petitioning the government becomes violent and infringes on others in personal welfare or liberties, free speech is limited retrospectively. Free speech is not protected when it advocates violence or criminal activity. No is it protected when it is determined harmful to an individual due to slander or libel. Liberal and Jim, remember the MnALCU telling you about 'fighting words'?
SCOTUS also determined that "speech that enjoys
the most extensive First Amendment protection may be subject to “regulations of the time, place, and manner of expression." "Free Speech zones"
That's what I meant by not being absolute. 
Rosalind posts read like a play script.
Me: I said lah lah lah
Him: you said what?
Me: good grief
girl 1: this is getting old
store clerk: that will be $3.50 please.
Cripes, 
When I said the occupiers are a bunch of contentious unruly rabble with no respect for anything, that was a generalization. Does that mean that every single person in the group is that way? No different is the pepper spray incident. That was likley excessive force by the police. Does that mean that every police officer uses excessive force?
QUOTE Was it Bush that started "Free Speech Zones" ? People are allowed to redress government and protest miles away from the people we have problems with and miles away from the press? The press is now being told what stories they can cover and which they can not? Does that sound like America? The press is now being arrested and threatened for trying to cover stories the police and government don't want them covering? What country is this turning into?
No, rosalind, free speech zones were in existence before Bush. I'm not sure if you didn't know or if you just wanted to 'pull a Bam-Bam and blame him. They came to being during the Johnson administration. The DNC used them in the '80s and again in Boston in 2004  They were expanded though when he was in office.
GD, I tend to agree with you to a degree. Did the unions and protesters have the right to not leave the Wisconsin capitol at night?
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Actually my wife is especially happy when my google check arrives each month. Thanks to douchbags like you, I get paid just for getting you worked up. -Liberal
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| Post Number: 15
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blahblahblah
Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Mar. 31 2012,1:17 pm |
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(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 31 2012,1:09 am)
QUOTE And, no offense, but, it is kind of sad that your biggest response: "I think several interesting questions have come up (at least as far as I am concerned)."
was followed up by the behavior of some of the protestors, and ridiculing them and what they are doing.
Perhaps instead, you could try to realize what their message is, and how what has been happening in this country and still is happening in this country, with how corrupt our government is, is far more offensive than this group of people who want things fixed.
Don't worry I am not offended, I'm not even really sure what you're sad about.
What is the message of Occupy?
Is it that things need to change in this country? I agree with that.
Is it that capatilism and mostly free markets don't work? I mostly disagree with this, the problem as I see it is crony capitalism (which is aided by government regulation)
Is it that students have been unfairly burdened with expensive degrees in low demand fields and now have loans to pay? I don't think I will ever agree with this.
Is it that people who can't afford homes they purchased should be allowed to keep the property regardless of the contract they agreed to and the failure to meet their contractual obligations? I think property rights are too important to ever agree with this.
Is it that there is too much money in politics, which is part of the reason we are always picking between the candidates that the money is willing to support? On this I can agree with Occupy, unfortunately Occupy is only about limiting corporate money and is totally for union money, and any other left-wing special interest money. I would be more interested in the elimination of money from all sides.
Is it that everyone should get free healthcare? I have been pondering this one a lot lately and am not sure. I however do believe that Minnesota does a good job of providing insurance to lower income individuals and families on the state level.
Is it that fractional reserve banking and the Fed enslave people with debt burdens they have no hope of ever repaying? I disagree with this, people enslave themselves with debt burdens they have no hope of repaying. I don't even see Occupy's issue with fractional reserve banking in general. It is possible that a country can devalue its way out of debt, but I am sure that has consequences of its own.
Is it that we as a society should strive for an existance promoted in the Zeitgeist series which manifests itself in the "The Venus Project" where somehow human behavior is magically changed and we all work our hardest for the benefit of all of us? At this point I am guessing it's obvious that I am going to think this is crazy.
So Rosalind, what have I missed here? What am I not taking into consideration? That two main topics discussed by OccupyMN are foreclosures and student loans, and constant debates about whether they should be more violent in their protests.
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| Post Number: 16
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Santorini
Group: Members
Posts: 2015
Joined: Nov. 2007
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Posted on: Mar. 31 2012,5:11 pm |
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Good Post blahblahblah!!
That about covers it 
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"Things turn out best for those who make the best
of the way things turned out." Jack Buck
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| Post Number: 17
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Rosalind_Swenson
Group: Members
Posts: 1527
Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Mar. 31 2012,8:38 pm |
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Yes blahblah, you are missing some things, and you are also misunderstanding other things.
I don't know much about this part of what some in Occupy are working on, I just know some of these things have been being discussed since the first day of Occupy.
`End the Federal Reserve. Reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act. Busting up the banks. Bank reform. End of crony capitalism. We don't want to have to bail out the "too big to fail" banks again. You and Santorini think it's ok that people lost their homes because they couldn't afford them (mostly I tend to agree to a certain point) but neither of you have said anything about the fact that banks are just as much to blame (even more so) but they got bailed out, people did not. I'm admitting I don't know much on the banking/economics part. But I trust what some of the occupiers are saying and doing about it. Here also is a good article from the WSJ:
http://online.wsj.com/article...18.html
Yes, we want Education Reform as well. Most of the groups I am with don't talk about forgiving student loans. We want college education costs to come down, the costs have skyrocketed in the last ten years or so, and we want things streamlined. Streamlining: For example, my oldest daughter is going to school to be a nurse. She became a CNA in her junior year of highschool and has been taking classes at Riverland for the last two years to become an RN. Half of her classes she is required to take have nothing to do with nursing. Why? It's a waste of money and time. Companies are saying that there isn't enough skilled labor for the jobs they need (some use that as a reason they outsource or go overseas) Ok, so get the costs of education down and get the whole education system to where it works.
Yes too much money in politics. I don't know where you got your info about Occupy only wanting to limit corporate money in influencing government, and not union money. I've never talked to another occupier that has ever said anything other than "get all money out of politics" . No more lobbyists, no more buying politicians in any way. We want Citizens United overturned: that was one of our first and is still one of our strongest ideas. We don't want money in politics, no matter what "side" they are on. The vast majority of us don't like republicans or democrats. They are both just as corrupt as the other.
As for your Zeitgeist comment, every once in awhile someone would come to one of the livestream rooms and spam Zeitgeist links. I don't know a single person who ever watched them, and I have never seen it discussed.
Free Healthcare? One thing I know for sure almost all of us occupiers agree on about healthcare is we don't want profits put over people. We happen to think it is wrong to let people die in the name of money.
Government agencies: We don't want them being bought or threatened by the people they are supposed to be keeping us safe from. Just one example of many: When doctors, scientists and all experts say that there is absolutely no safe level of mercury to have in our bodies-why does the EPA keep raising the acceptable levels of mercury for our bodies? Another example: When hundreds of people are calling the EPA, saying their drinking water is poisoned (to the point they can light their tap water on fire) why does nobody show up or even return their phone calls?
Environment: We don't want the air, land and water continuing to be poisoned. We want more R and D going on for safer cleaner alternatives, and faster implementation for using what we already have the technology for. Instead of building more nuclear power plants, like the two we can utilize wind, solar and hydro to create the same amount of energy.
Media: We want media we can trust. Not media that is paid to hide, lie, spin and fill us full of useless BS to keep us uninformed. We don't want media people who actually do try report important issues to be threatened. This is happening more and more in America and it should scare the hell out of every one of us. AP reporters and Democracy Now and 40 other reporters were handled quite roughly and jailed while covering the RNC in St. Paul in 2008. An ABC news reporter was arrested and charged with tresspassing covering the DNC in Denver in 2008. When CBS tried to do a report on the gulf, BP people and a couple coast guard men threatened them with arrest if they did not leave. One reporter was arrested during the WTO protests in 1999, a huge amount of reporters have been jailed all over the country for covering OWS. In LA the LAPD set up a freakin lottery to "allow" a few lucky reporters to cover a raid on occupiers. How is all this sounding to you? Think it's going to get better?
So many of the bills that have come out lately are so vague it leaves way too many important things up for interpretation. NDAA, Enemy Expatriation Act, SOPA, PIPA. The government is working hard at making any sort of protesting almost impossible. Free speech zones to crazy regulations set up to stymie free speech. BTW, no MADDOG, I did not ask if Bush started Free Speech Zones because he's republican. I dislike democrats as much as I dislike republicans. I asked because I didn't know. The first time I heard about them was with Bush.
We are sick of being lied to by our leaders. Why did we invade Iraq? Which story should we believe? Which story, if any, has even turned out to be true? We're sick of our government trying to/starting wars.
We want more transparency in local, state and federal government. We want more of a say in how money is spent and more of a say in what goes on. For the people by the people right?
We're sick and scared of the ever increasing power over us that the government has. We're sick of being called names and people saying we have no coherent message. Just look at the list I have given-there is more, but I'm tired, and to be honest I think my time and energy is being wasted in this forum. A funny thought popped into my head last night, I was remembering the first few weeks of occupy, and how HUGE it got so quickly, with NO media attention whatsoever. We were all frustrated and angry that it was being hidden like it was. Even the day 15 thousand people were marching down the streets of NY. It hit me last night: too bad the media DID start covering it. Occupy was growing much more quickly by word of mouth and people actually coming to the livestream room and to the park in NY to find out for themselves. That's how they found out the TRUTH about what was going on, and that's why it exploded so quickly.
Then the media finally showed up, lying, spinning and working their hardest to discredit the whole movement, making people want to shun the whole thing, and making some that had joined decide to opt out and not be labeled with the same names the media and their listeners were using. Almost worked, but not quite. This isn't done, not by a long shot. Another funny thing thanks to the media- everyone says we have alot of complaints but no fixes. Well, we do have some fixes, but the thing is, we just want more people to be aware of the important issues so there can be more people involved and more discussions, so we can find the best solutions to problems. Think the government is going to fix things? HA. They are the reason things have gotten the way they are, and it will continue to get worse if left up to them alone.
Or do you just want to go on debating and arguing republicans vs. democrats and who is better.
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And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
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| Post Number: 18
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Santorini
Group: Members
Posts: 2015
Joined: Nov. 2007
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Posted on: Apr. 01 2012,11:34 am |
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curious Ros, your daughter going to Riverland Nursing, what classes specifically would you call unnecessary?
Its wonderful that kids can do post-secondary while still in high school (free!) to get a jump start on their education and careers! Your daughter did a good job!
And a valuable lesson your daughter will learn practicing nursing is that with Medicare (govt run healthcare!) Cost is always considered over people!! And people do die in the name of money under medicare!
And water! Ive never trusted tap water...people flushing all kinds of crap down the toilets...eventually works is way into he drinking water...thats why I use
reverse osmosis! and supplement with flouride tabs.
And transparency from govt...
We utilize our voting rights to choose representatives that best represent our wishes/ needs. You are not always going to agree with their choices...but that is the name of the game! Dont like being lied to then gather your group and vote them out!
and people losing their homes? Yes it is sad, BUT...
why would someone making $30,000/yr even think they could afford a $300,000 home? Because the bank said they could? Common sense HAS to come into play here.
When my child and her spouse were buying their first home 2 years ago my advice to them was to never use both incomes when considering buying a house...use only one! If one of you should lose your job you could still afford to keep your home! As a result they have a beautiful home on the lake and are not constrained with excessive monthly payments. This is where personal responsibility of knowing what you can afford comes into play. Doesnt matter what the bank says you can afford...the bank is looking out for the bank...
the WSJ link...
Its a risk whenever a person invests in the stock market.
Anyone who invests knows the risk involved! Solution...
Dont invest!
Then you made a comment think the govt is going to fix things, HA...then why would you even want to push healthcare into the govts hands?!
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"Things turn out best for those who make the best
of the way things turned out." Jack Buck
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| Post Number: 19
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Rosalind_Swenson
Group: Members
Posts: 1527
Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Apr. 01 2012,2:25 pm |
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This is my last comment to you. I used to think you were somewhat amusing with some of the things you would say, but after you called me a "terrorist sympathizer" and after I read Grinning Dragon's response, I started thinking how right he is that statements and thought patterns like yours are dangerous and troubling. Especially now with these new laws. I don't really want to be hauled away and locked up indefinitely without a lawyer, trial, and without even my family knowing what happened to me. Far fetched as it may seem, it is possible now for these things to happen. Right here in America, it is possible now.
After your reaction towards the UC Davis students, and (you won't answer my question on if you think it was appropriate action from police) I have to assume by your other comments that you do approve and think the police had every right to blast those kids in the face with pepper spray. Peaceful kids doing nothing wrong. Exercising their first amendment right. Now I find absolutely nothing amusing about anything you say.
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I can't believe I am even going to respond to your reverse osmosis comment as being the right option instead of considering STOPPING the poisoning of our water supplies:
Reverse Osmosis does not remove all of the chemicals that ends up in water from the process of fracking. There are still some chemicals that can't be removed, which in fact degrade the reverse osmosis filters quite rapidly, and cause cancer. There are people whose water has been poisoned by fracking, and are now dying of cancer. People whose land and water is damaged by fracking can't even sell their property and leave. Nobody in their right mind would buy it.
And I suppose in your way of thinking "They should have sold their property to the fracking companies. Personal Responsibility! They made the choice to not sell. Their neighbors on the other hand DID sell and became quite rich! Their neighbors can now move wherever they want to! But since they CHOSE to not sell or lease their property to frackers, it is THEIR FAULT their property has absolutely no value now, it is THEIR FAULT they aren't rich and are dying of cancer. They can always walk away with nothing and move somewhere else. It's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY AND FREE CHOICE!!  That is how this country works and why it is so great! I think they should not be allowed to get welfare or any other type of government assistance though, after all, they did give up the chance to make money from their property, but they REFUSED!
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I also can't believe you are still taking the side of the banks when they almost crashed the entire economy. Personal responsibility must only apply to we the people. Bankers work hard for their money! They deserved those million dollar bonuses right after they paid back their bail out money! You are jealous of other peoples' success and if you don't have what you want out of your life IT'S YOUR FAULT.
So now you will be put on ignore, but I will let you get in one last jab before I do, so make it good. Rant your heart out at my lazy-good-for-nothing-socialist-occupying-filthy-leftist-jealousofotherssuccess-gimmewhats
yours ass. Give it all ya got, because after this next comment from you I will not see any more.
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And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
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| Post Number: 20
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Self-Banished
Group: Members
Posts: 22581
Joined: Feb. 2006
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Posted on: Apr. 01 2012,3:41 pm |
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Roz, I know we've had our tiffs in the past but putting someone on ignore is pretty much sticking you fingers in your ears and singing la la la la, pretty childish IMHO
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Remember boys and girls,
Don’t be a Dick …
Or a “Wayne” 
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