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| Post Number: 71
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Mahmoud
Unregistered
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Posted on: Sep. 19 2003,9:49 pm |
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Mr. Hanson you are full of opinions that are not based in anything but ignorance and prejudice. You have filled your head with dung and dispense it as knowlege. Let me assure you that there is a Palestine, I was born there and that would make me a Palestinian. I am also a naturalized citizen of the United States, and know that you have every right to be a stupid. I just thought you needed to be made aware of your achievement.
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| Post Number: 72
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minnow 
Group: Members
Posts: 2243
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 19 2003,10:22 pm |
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LOL 
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| Post Number: 73
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GEOKARJO
Google This!!!
Group: Members
Posts: 7799
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 20 2003,3:56 pm |
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I would like to welcome Mahmond to the forum and would ask that he share some insight on Palestine. As we are all small town people that was brought up in a redneck enviroment we are open to other insight views and opinions.
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| Post Number: 74
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 20 2003,4:00 pm |
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Mahamoud--certainly YOU don't have an axe to grind, do you? Kind of like asking mice if there should be cats in the world.
I don't care if there is a Palestine, an Israel, or a Caanan (which predated both). I don't care if there is a Persia, Babylon, or Pelopponesia--ALL civilizations that haven't existed for millenia. There are a number of scholars that have stated this theory--and THEY don't have an axe to grind, either. I have provided encyclopedia quotes, texts, links to other sites--an all I get back is a sophomoric "my teacher told me so" response--with no verifiable facts.
Since you have only a "handle"--a "nom-de-plume" (or, since this is the digital age, a "nom-de-network")  and are unregistered, we have no way of knowing if you are serious, or a quipster, (as in Scrappleface.coms parody of Saddam's "little-known son, OOGLAY"). I know you may find this hard to believe, coming from the land of "Baghdad Bob" and Saddam, (where the truth is ALWAYS told) that there are those on the Forum that post under different names. Please tell us more about yourself.
Which Palestine were you born in? The Palestine that included Judea and Israel? The Palestine of Caanan? The Caliphe of Baghdad? The Palestine ruled by Romans? By Egypt? The British mandate? There have been so many rulers of this area, it is hard to describe the boundaries, unlike the well-defined boundaries of nearly every other ancient civilization. This area, at one time or another, constituted half the known world of Biblical times.
While handing out achievement awards, congratulations on YOUR impartiality, and your vast array of supporting facts.
Edited by jimhanson on Sep. 20 2003,4:02 pm
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 75
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 20 2003,5:04 pm |
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| Quote |
There are a number of scholars that have stated this theory--and THEY don't have an axe to grind--I have provided encyclopedia quotes, texts, links to other sites--an all I get back is a sophomoric "my teacher told me so" response--with no verifiable facts.
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Who are these scholars? If that's were true then I would think that you would have posted what these scholars had to say by now.
Go back and look at what you've posted as fact. And then look at what I've posted. I didn't say once say "my teacher told me so" and I didn't once parrot anything told to me by some talking head/commentator. I've supplied you with maps proving palestine exists, I've supplied you with documents and literally a plethora of facts and quotes from sites.
Also, I didn't once say anything even close to "my teacher told me this stuff" unlike you, that has said
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I'm not smart enough to think this up by myself--I have read several commentators making this remark about the genesis of the problem of defining "ownership" of the area.
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There are a number of scholars that have stated this theory
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Let's see the quotes from the commentators or the scholars.
One last fact from encyclopedia.com the entry on David Ben Gurion(first PM of Isreal) will show you
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1886-1973, Israeli statesman, b. Poland as David Grün. He settled in Palestine in 1906. He was an active Zionist and during World War I helped to organize the Jewish Legion in support of the British. In the struggle to found an independent Jewish state in Palestine he followed a policy of cooperation with the British during World War II. After the war, however, he led the political struggle against them and authorized sabotage activities.
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Now the entry you posted doesn't actually say there was no Palestine you're just reading that into it. But the encyclopedia.com entry I just posted states flat out the David Ben Gurion moved to Palestine in 1906. (no careful read needed there).
You've never answered my question about what you call a person born in Palestine. (I don't care which Palestine either. You can pick from your previous choices, The Palestine that included Judea and Israel, The Palestine of Caanan, The Caliphe of Baghdad, The Palestine ruled by Romans, By Egypt or by The British mandate?)
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 76
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 20 2003,7:50 pm |
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| Quote | | "I didn't say once say "my teacher told me so". |
You are correct, the quote marks were not to imply that the quotes were from you, and I didn't attribute them to you. The quote marks were meant to paraphrase a remark expressed by others, as in (I know it must be true--why?--because "my teacher told me so".
| Quote | | "I've supplied you with maps proving palestine exists, I've supplied you with documents and literally a plethora of facts and quotes from sites." |
And I've shown you that during the time of the map you put forth (1836), there WAS NO PALESTINE, it was ruled by MUHAMMED ALI, head of EGYPT! I could just as easily post a map of NORTH AMERICA, to "PROVE" there is a COUNTRY called "NORTH AMERICA"--BUT THAT WOULD NOT MAKE IT SO. Under this logic, why don't WE consider ourselve FRENCH--this area was part of the Louisiana Purchase from France in 1803! (I've got a map to "prove" that, as well--it makes the same claim) Why don't we consider ourselves ENGLISH--they laid claim to all of North America as well! Maybe we should give Arizona, Texas, California, and New Mexico back to the SPANISH--THEY had a CLAIM on it at one time, too! Or maybe we should consider ourselves NATIVE AMERICANS--even though we all came from SOMEWHERE ELSE--as did the "indians" (there's those pesky "quote marks" again! )--THEY came across the Bering Strait--do the MONGOLIANS have a claim? What's that you say--the French have a claim on it, only because it was a territory, without defined boundaries, and unadministered? That seems consistent with your defining Palestine as a country! Can you show evidence of a Palestinian government? Public works? Taxes or funding? Standing army? Defenses? (maybe that's why they ceased to be a COUNTRY! ) Unlike the constantly changing boundaries of "Palestine", the nation-states quoted HAD precise boundaries, governments, taxes, armies, and all the things that make a nation. Where is Palestine TODAY? (or for the last 50 years? For the last 75 years?) If you WERE to CREATE a Palestine today, where would the borders be? Who would you take the land from? The Syrians? The Iraqi's? The Jordanians? The Israelis? The Egyptians? How about those Romans--they ruled it once, let's take it from THEM! After all, who has the best claim on it?
| Quote | | "Now the entry you posted doesn't actually say there was no Palestine you're just reading that into it." |
I suppose you could make the same argument about the existence of God--absent specific proof that something EXISTS, it is hard to prove it DOESN'T EXIST. Perhaps a better illustration is "DARK--the ABSENCE OF LIGHT"--or the old rhetorical "when did you stop beating your wife?"--"but I don't beat my wife"--"AHA, then you DENY beating your wife!" If I DIDN'T say there were NO UNICORNS, does that prove there ARE UNICORNS? (kind of reminds me of kids logic "Mom never said I Couldn't set my little brother on fire"--it didn't work for ME! (in this way lies madness!--rhetorical questions--I don't think I'm up to "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" arguments! 
| Quote | | "He settled in Palestine in 1906." |
Hardly a convincing argument. It could be said "He settled in Africa" or "He settled in Europe"--that wouldn't make it so. In North America, if someone had "settled in California" during the time of rule by Mexico, it could have been anywhere in Oregon, California, Arizona, or Nevada. To use your logic, that would make today's residents of Las Vegas "Californians", because of the ill-defined boundaries of the area. Same with "Texas"--the area of colonial "Tejas" included Texas, Eastern Louisiana, Oklahoma, parts of Colorado, New Mexico, and parts of Arizona. Try calling Denver residents "Texans"--it is about as precise.
I have to go home and cook up some Crawdads and Etoufee, and drink some French wine--after all, I just found out that we are FRENCH, because the area was once CLAIMED BY FRANCE! (I'll have to drink a lot of wine, though, to LIVE DOWN BEING FRENCH!)
Edited by jimhanson on Sep. 20 2003,8:21 pm
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 77
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 21 2003,1:25 am |
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if someone had "settled in California" during the time of rule by Mexico, it could have been anywhere in Oregon, California, Arizona, or Nevada. To use your logic, that would make today's residents of Las Vegas "Californians", because of the ill-defined boundaries of the area.
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No, but it would make a resident of California a Californian.
Here is an excerpt from A History of the Palestinian Problem from the United Nations website. If you follow the link and read it you will see that the UN was trying to correct a problem created by Britain and the League of Nations.
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After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947). One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled.
UN Website
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Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Wouldn't that be a Palestinian?
I'll try asking this for the third time. What do you call a person born in Palestine. (I don't care which Palestine either. You can pick from your previous choices, The Palestine that included Judea and Israel, The Palestine of Caanan, The Caliphe of Baghdad, The Palestine ruled by Romans, By Egypt or by The British mandate?)
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 78
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shaker
Group: Members
Posts: 435
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 21 2003,11:34 am |
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Liberal and Jim, I find your posts to be vary interesting and well done, its always good to see more than one side do a disagreement. Keep it up.
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| Post Number: 79
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 21 2003,2:26 pm |
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So what WOULD you call a resident of Las Vegas TODAY, living in the old area of California? Would you call them a Californian? Would the Denver resident be a Texan?
| Quote | | "What do you call a person born in Palestine" |
They WOULD be called a Palestinian--IF there is a Palestine. Looking at the map, I don't see a Palestine. I don't think there is a Palestine in the United Nations.
Try this--every time you see the word Palestine, substitute the word EUROPE, and every time you see the word Palestinian, substitute EUROPEAN. The sentence will make just as much sense. Just as there is no nation called EUROPE (because it is an AREA, not a nation), the same can be said about Palestine. Someone can be born in the area formerly known as Palestine (reminds me of "the artist formerly known as Prince"--with about as much substance as his unpronouncable "symbol") and be called "Palestinian"--just as a Belgian could be known as EUROPEAN. That DOES NOT MEAN THERE IS A NATION KNOWN AS EUROPE.
There are all kinds of similarities between the Region of Palestine and OTHER regions. Someone could be called a "Southerner" in the U.S., and it wouldn't be very specific--the area would be from Virginia to Texas. They could be called a "Westerner", and the area would be even larger, and less specific--probably from the Mississippi west. If they were a "Northerner", the area is even larger and less specific--do they mean the area north of the Mason-Dixon line? What constitutes Northern in the West?
From your post, above: | Quote | | "One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine." |
Note that it says TERRITORY of Palestine, not NATION (or COUNTRY, or STATE) of Palestine--my point all along. The World Book encyclopedia says something similar to your post | Quote | | "one of the two states declared its independence, but the Arabs refused to recognize the new state,maintaining that the entire area was theirs")". |
With your intense interest in this area of the world, I think you should visit it for yourself! Call the Palestinian embassy, and get a Visa. Can't find the Palestinian embassy in the phone book? Check the U.S. State Department to see if there are any travel warnings in Palestine. Can't find that, either. Maybe the U.N. can intercede. Nope, not a member. You should probably know where the U.S. Embassy is in Palestine, in case there is trouble. Good Luck! Any special shots you should have before going there? Do you suppose you could get an answer from the World Health Organization? Better call Berlitz and ask what the official language of Palestine is. Ask your telephone operator what the country code for Palestine is, so you can call there. Better check with AOL to see what the connection number is for your computer. Call your travel agent, and tell them you would like to go to Palestine. ("Yes sir, we're working on that right now--we just can't seem to be able to book a room there--what is the capital city?") Call Hilton Hotels, and ask if they have any hotels in Palestine. While you are at it, ask Hilton if Palestinian electricity is 110 or 220 volt. Call Hertz, and see if they have any cars for rent there. (and whether they drive on the left or right side of the road). You should know something about the country--check on what the leading export of Palestine is. Call Northwest Airlines, and tell them you want to fly to Palestine. (Imagine a Bob Newhart telephone routine--"No, no, we don't fly there ourselves--no, I can't tell you what airline does--no, I don't know what city you would fly into--would you mind if I put you on hold?")--sounds like a bit from Crank Yankers! What is the national airline of Palestine? What kind of airplanes do they fly? Are there any endangered species in Palestine--you'd better know before coming through U.S. Customs on the way home. What is the official money of Palestine called? What is the exchange rate? This airline business is getting so confusing--maybe you can go there by train or ship. What port would you like to sail to? This is getting to be too hard to actually travel there--maybe you should settle for just writing to your Palestinian friends. What is their address--will the Postal Service in the U.S. send your letter there--and will a "Palestinian" post office deliver it there? How much does it cost to send a package there? Better call UPS or Fedex--I'm sure THEY will have the answer! AT THIS POINT YOU SHOULD BE ASKING YOURSELF, "WHAT KIND OF COUNTRY IS THIS?
(believe it or not, travel agents get these kinds of questions all the time--"I want to go to Europe". "Yes, but WHERE in Europe?" "Don't get snippy with me, young man, my friends went to Europe last year, and THEY had a good time!")
Being a liberal (with a small L, as opposed to a free-thinking CLASSIC Liberal) means never having to face facts--but the FACTS are--PALESTINE HASN'T BEEN A COUNTRY IN NEARLY 2000 YEARS, AND ISN'T A COUNTRY TODAY.
Edited by jimhanson on Sep. 21 2003,3:49 pm
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 80
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 22 2003,2:04 pm |
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From your post, above:
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"One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine."
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Note that it says TERRITORY of Palestine, not NATION (or COUNTRY, or STATE) of Palestine--my point all along. The World Book encyclopedia says something similar to your post
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You misquoted that trying to use the word "TERRITORY" out of context.
If we lost 77% of the territory of the United States it would not turn us into a territory. We would still be a country just a 77% smaller country.
Also, you say that it's just a territory and that was your point all along. It seems that I have to remind you again that your point all along is that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people anymore than ebonics is true language. My point is that there is a Palestinian people and that your statement was wrong.
Are you willing to admit there is a Palestinian people?
I would much rather finish that discussion before discussing if it's fair to suppress the political, economic, and civil rights of people just because they never had a state, a distinct language or a distinct culture in their history.
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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