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| Post Number: 31
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hoosier 
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 12 2003,8:12 am |
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It all boils down to this, the jewish vote here in the United States, that and a number of jewish politicians in Washington. And it makes no difference what the palistinians were a hundred years ago, what matters is that most of the world agrees that they deserve some of this land. Some here made such a big deal out of Iraq violating UN resolutions. My god, how many have Isreal violated? And we sit by and do nothing. What kind of an army has bulldozers as part of their front line force? How about a criminal army. And how is it that they think they can just go in and remove a leader that they dont like? The Palistinians sure seem to want Arafat to stick around. Isreal only does the things they do because our government backs them. ONE BIG glaring reason why the rest of the world will NEVER accept the U.S. as the worlds cop on the beat. Hell, I dont even accept that. If we were fair world police, we would go into Isreal and arrest the government for war crimes against civilians. And dont try to tell me it aint a war. Except in this case, only one side has an army, the other fights with what they can get their hands on. Oh, I would also arrest George W. for aiding the war criminals. Put him down in Cuba and let him rot, without ever seeing a lawyer or being charged. No special protection for him either, just throw him in their with the men whos rights under the Geneva convention have been trampled on.
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 32
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Bubba
Group: Members
Posts: 94
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 12 2003,9:41 am |
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Well now let me see, do I know any other country that goes around removing other peoples leaders that they don't like? Boy that's a tough one.
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| Post Number: 33
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 12 2003,12:30 pm |
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Bubba, I know what you are getting at, and you are right. But, removing Saddam, I believe is a little different than Isreal wanting to remove Arafat. I believe that the vast majority of Iraqis are glad to see Saddam gone, I dont think that is the case with Arafat.
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 34
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minnow
Unregistered
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Posted on: Sep. 12 2003,1:04 pm |
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I vote another $100 billion for rebuilding Iraq...so I can move over there and get a job! 
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| Post Number: 35
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 12 2003,4:37 pm |
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| Quote | | "I don't know about ebonics but there certainly are Palestinian people." |
"Palestine was settled by the same Neanderthals that settled in Europe"--encyclopedia.com. After approximately 1000 BC, the Hebrews started their own kingdoms in the area Judea and Israel. The encyclopedia goes on to list all of the countries that have ruled the area, BUT NONE OF THEM CALLED IT PALESTINE SINCE THE MILLENIA BEFORE CHRIST! I suppose we could all call ourselves Neanderthals, as well. 
To read a history of Palestine, go to this link at encyclopedia.com
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/palestin_history.asp
| Quote | | "U.S. Aid to Israel from 1949 to 1997 was $85 Billion dollars. " |
As comparred to HOW MUCH OIL REVENUE IN THE ARAB COUNTRIES? The first couple of Israeli battles against the Arabs, they received NO help from the U.S.--they were flying WW II British Spitfires against the Arabs.--and did quite well, thank you.
| Quote | | "How about they leave the West Bank and the Gaza strip like they agreed to in Oslo Agreements in 1993. Then they probably wouldn't have to worry so much about anyone firing artillery at them." |
That only works if there is a true cease-fire--something that hasn't happened in modern memory. I don't think Israel WANTS the Golan Heights or West Bank--as I said earlier, they gave up all the captured territory and cities they had captured from the Arabs in every previous war. Perhaps those areas need to be a Demilitarized Zone, like Korea--but who would police it if violence erupted there--the U.N.?
Check the proposals over the last 3 years--Israel has said that peace negotiations will begin when evidence of a true cease-fire occurs--initially 1 month without attacks, then shortened to 2 weeks. Arafat couldn't control his people for even that long--proving he is not the person to be handling negotiations, if he is not in control.
| Quote | | "The Multinational Forces and Observers have been doing a pretty good job of keeping the peace in the Sinai for 20 years now ". |
True, but you had TWO WILLING PARTIES IN THAT CASE--ANWAR SADAT BROKE WITH HIS FELLOW ARABS TO SIGN A NON-AGRESSION TEATY, SPECIFYING ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST--ITEMS MISSIONG FROM THE "PALESTINIAN" PROBLEM. Sadat's willingness to do so COST HIM HIS LIFE from his "brother" Arabs.
Any way you dice it, I don't know of a single Arab leader that can be trusted--Sadat did so, and look where it got him!
Edited by jimhanson on Sep. 12 2003,4:43 pm
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 36
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 12 2003,4:40 pm |
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Anyway you dice it, I dont know of an American or Isreali leader that can be trusted.
Edited by hoosier on Sep. 12 2003,4:40 pm
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 37
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 12 2003,5:44 pm |
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BUT NONE OF THEM CALLED IT PALESTINE SINCE THE MILLENIA BEFORE CHRIST! I suppose we could all call ourselves Neanderthals, as well.
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It was called Judah from 1000 b.c. up until the romans conquered it in 200 AD they then called it Palestinia to minimize Jewish attachment to the land. The link you posted backs that statement up.
I don't know where you keep coming up with this statement that there isn't a palestinian people because their land was occupied. Japan occupied China yet there are still chinese people?
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As comparred to HOW MUCH OIL REVENUE IN THE ARAB COUNTRIES?
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Oh come on, that's a lame comparison. We give Israel $2 billion in military hardware every year and at the same time make sure none of our allies sell the Arabs any weapons So they are stuck fighting against tanks and jets with rocks.
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That only works if there is a true cease-fire--something that hasn't happened in modern memory.
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I thought we both agreed the MFO has worked. That's modern memory isn't it? I mean I still remember the 1980's, but, then again I am much younger than you
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Perhaps those areas need to be a Demilitarized Zone, like Korea--but who would police it if violence erupted there--the U.N.?
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Once again a force similar to the MFO could handle this situation without a problem.
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Any way you dice it, I don't know of a single Arab leader that can be trusted--
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Why do we have to trust them. The MFO works now and nobody trusts Egypt or Israel.
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 38
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 13 2003,10:52 am |
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| Quote | | I don't know where you keep coming up with this statement that there isn't a palestinian people because their land was occupied |
Just when WAS the last time there was a Palestine or Israel, except for modern times--200 A.D.? That's the point of the encyclopedia reference, and my post. Using that logic--much of Europe would still be part of the Roman or Ottoman empire. The encyclopedia goes on to recount the history of the area--even the AREA of Palestine is ill-defined, and escapes precise definition, as it was conquered and absorbed by countless countries, who themselves were conquered and absorbed. Looking at the map, the area currently considered for consideration as being called Palestine is only periphally part of the ancient Palestine. The whole point is--NEITHER the Israelis or the Palestinians have an exclusive claim to the area. The Multinationals (U.N.) made a HUGE error in dropping Israel into the middle of the Arab world (see my first post). The only way out is to REMOVE ISRAEL (that's OK, but hardly likely) or to DOUBLE the error by creating another artificial Arab state--Palestine. And WHERE are you going to get the land to create this state--from Israel--only about the size of our New England states--or are you going to ASK that neighboring Arab countries voluntarily give up their land for their Arab brothers?
| Quote | | So they are stuck fighting against tanks and jets with rocks. |
You might be a lot--well, not a LOT--younger than me, but one of the advantages of being old is that, while you can't remember what happened YESTERDAY, one CAN remember events that happened years ago! In the first conflicts, Israel used cast-off surplus British Spitfires, and Spanish built Me-109s, as well as British tanks. The Arabs used Russian-supplied armor. The U.S. refused to send aircraft or armor in the early 50s. Today, Saudi Arabia has F-16s--U.S. made. Jordan has some early F-16s, as well as U.S. made F-5 Freedom Fighters. Syria has Russian Mig-25s--faster than any operational U.S. fighter, and a few Russian Mig-29s--the best front-line fighter in the Comunist world. Iraq had Mig-25s at the time of the "7-day war", Iran has Mig-25s and 29s. All of them have Russian helicopter gunships, and the latest Russian armor. The Israelis were "outgunned" in numbers by 7-1 in the aircraft department, and vastly outnumbered by armor.--the Arabs were unable to bring their forces to bear in every conflict. You can't denigrate the Israeli victories by saying that the equipment made the difference--it was the training and tactics that made the difference.
Regarding the Multinational peacekeeping force--the operations in the Sinai are the only example that I can think of that WORK--AND THAT IS ONLY BECAUSE EGYPT'S SADAT SIGNED A WORKABLE CEASE FIRE (a move that cost him his life, angering his brother Arabs). Sadat was able to CONTROL his people, something that Arafat has NEVER been able to do--which is the reason that nobody bothers to deal with him any more--he is irrelevant.
All right--I've thrown out MY views and thoughts on the Middle East problem--time for anyone else to throw out THEIR views on how to solve it. The "Can't we all get along?" thing has FAILED for 56 years--should we keep doing more of the same? Be specific--who gives up what, what are the pre-conditions, should we have a monitor--and with what powers? Who should be a party to negotiations, who should speak for the amorphous "Palestinians" (and just what area DEFINES Palestine?) What happens if there is a violation of the terms of peace?
Personally, I'd like to see a "grudge match"--a WWF-style "cage fight"--nobody in or out, no "tag-teaming"--everybody clear the decks, go to the sidelines, and let them settle this once and for all, winner take all.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 39
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Ole1kanobe
Group: Members
Posts: 1360
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 13 2003,11:56 am |
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Put up a nice big wall and let them figure it out for themselves. (that is a joke, not serious)
It seems that none of the cultures in the Middle East can agree to anything, at least not for very long, so the odds of anything ever working over there (in my mind) is pretty slim.
If they want to kill each other, whatever, I am just tired of our soldiers being killed over their problems that they do not seem to want to work out.
Even if a magic solution was brought to the table that pleased everybody, does anyone realize how many decades it would take to weed out all the hate over there? Kind of like when black people in this country were given rights, sure they put it on paper, but look back and see how long it actually took for that to take hold.
If you are ever down south in Alabama, take a trip through Mobile. Even though all Americans are to have the same rights and treated equally, you still see segregation down there. There is still a lot of old blood there that feels anyone other than white people should have assigned drinking fountains and public bathrooms.
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The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
-Albert Einstein-
Some of what is said here (myself included) is about as tolerable as listening to someone vacuum a cat.
-nphilbro-
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| Post Number: 40
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 13 2003,12:19 pm |
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Ole1--I get around all over the U.S.--and I see more segregation in the North than I do in the South.
With the always-present exception, Southerners have learned to live with each other. Communities are integrated, and as a result, so are most schools. The Mississipi casinos are filled with black and white workers, and patronized by both blacks and whites. In many state and local governments, Blacks are OVER-represented relative to their portion of the population, because of their propensity to vote as a bloc.
Contrast that with the cities of the North. Blacks and whites live in separate neighborhoods, and kids go to school locally--meaning further segregation. There are SELF-SEGREGATED businesses--black bars and eating establishments, and white bars--and don't ever make the mistake of going into the "wrong" one. The old adage of "don't let me catch you in this area after dark" applies to many Northern cities, for black and whites alike. Compare the segregation of Harlem, Detroit, Cleveland, or many Northern cities with Atlanta, Nashville, or Greensboro--I'll take the Southern cities any time!
"Put up a big wall and let them figure it out for themselves" (that is a joke, not serious)". No, of all the Middle East peace plans, this is one that we keep coming back to that makes sense. For decades, the Israelis were OUR surrogates, and the Arabs were the surrogates of the Russians. If EVERYBODY walked away, didn't interfere, and let them handle it for themselves, no matter what the outcome--they may see the value of getting along rather than killing each other. If one of the DID get the clear upper hand (see original post), it would go a long way towards solving the problem--one would no longer be a credible force--or perhaps even cease to exist.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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