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| Post Number: 61
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Bubba 
Group: Members
Posts: 94
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 17 2003,4:39 pm |
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Well Jim, Palestine has been at the cross roads of Africa, Europe, and Asia for many centuries. Just because the population has been in flux for all of recorded history doesn't mean that their aren't indigenous people in the area who have family histories that predate the time of Christ. Now if you don't want to call this area Palestine and its people Palesinian just because the bondaries have changed over time, I guess that I had better stop calling myself an Itallian-American.
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| Post Number: 62
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 17 2003,5:54 pm |
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How do you prove who has a claim on the land--next thing you know, we are going to have to present a deed from God himself--and you probably won't take HIS word on it--you'll want it NOTARIZED, as well!  Here is the history of Palestine from http://www.arab.net/palestine/ a pro-palestinian website. According to the website, Muslim rule wasn't even established until 638. Read carefully through the entire text--there was no COUNTRY called Palestine in ancient times. | Quote | | "Even before the Palestinians or the Jews were in Palestine, a group of people known as Canaanites had established themselves there. Around 4000 BC, the Canaanites, who were a Semitic people from the inner Arabian (does that make them Arabs? )peninsula, settled in the land which came to be known as Canaan and later, Palestine. One of the Canaanite tribes, the Jebusites, built a settlement which they called Urusalim (Jerusalem), meaning "the city of peace"." |
Even further back, according to encyclopedia.com, the area was settled by the Neanderthals--maybe we should call ourselves Neanderthal-Danish-Americans, or Neanderthal-Italian-Americans--they too predate the time of Christ.
If this is the case, where is the National Homeland for the Babylonians? The Etruscans? The Persians? The Spartans, Trojans, or the Epicureans? These people existed before the palestinians, and unlike the amorphous and nomadic people from the area known as palestine, their history and the boundaries of their nations were much better established. Why don't THEY have a claim on land?
I don't claim to be Danish-American, even though my grandparents came over on the boat--an Englishman sneaked in there somewhere in the 1600 or 1700s.  Maybe we should just leave it as "Americans".
"FREEDOM FOR THE PELOPONNESIANS!
Edited by jimhanson on Sep. 17 2003,6:00 pm
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 63
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Oldsmo Willie
Unregistered
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Posted on: Sep. 17 2003,8:47 pm |
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Jim, if one follows your circular logic, it would follow that the Jews, who revolted against Rome about the year 66 C.E., which resulted in the Romans sacking the Second Temple, Jerusalem and finally overruning the outpost at Masada in 73 C.E., would have no claim to the area either due to their being dispersed after the revolt ended. Further more there would be no Jews because we have no country that the Jews are named for.
Come on Jim, give it a rest! Are you afriad that if you give in on this we will have to give back Manhattan, which your ancestors purchased from the Indians for beads and blankets.
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| Post Number: 64
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Bubba
Group: Members
Posts: 94
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 18 2003,7:52 am |
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And I thought Jim was in the rarified air. Willie get some oxygen!
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| Post Number: 65
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 18 2003,10:22 am |
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This has ceased to be about Palestine, and has more to do with the ability of people to think independently, to look at problems in depth, to question authority.
I'm not smart enough to think this up by myself--I have read several commentators making this remark about the genesis of the problem of defining "ownership" of the area.
Most of us were brought up in, if not a Christian home, with some smattering of knowledge of the Bible. We all ASSUMED that Palestine figured in there somewhere. Since the 1967 7-day war, and heightened Arab "activity" (rocket attacks, car bombings, suicide attacks, suicide bombings, etc.), the "politically correct" educational establishment has "taught" generations of school kids that the "activists" only wanted to reconstitute their original homeland that was taken from them by the Israelis. As Nazi Propaganda Minister Goebbels correctly observed, "it only takes two generations to make (the truth as we describe it)". Or similarly, "A lie unchallenged soon becomes the truth".
Page after page of encyclopedia text seems to confirm this. I have no agenda here--I don't care WHO owned it in biblical times--but I DO care that inaccuracies and PC indoctrination not be allowed to stand unchallenged. I've brough some of these facts to this page. I hope that we've all learned something from this discussion--I know that I learned it was actually the U.N.that was at fault for creating a Jewish state in Arab lands--I had always assumed it was the British. I learned how ill-defined the area of Palestine really was--kind of like defining "Northern Iowa"--an area much larger than ancient Palestine. (i.e.--Is Decorah in Northern Iowa or Eastern Iowa?) I learned something about the history of the area by having to look up facts to make a point--reminds me of high school. If we've ALL learned something from this discussion, it has been worth the effort.
I've also learned that you can lay all the FACTS before some people and NEVER change their minds! (Just kidding!)
I've got to get back to taking on the problems of North America (oops, that's a REGION, like Palestine, I'll be more specific--Freeborn County--even though Freeborn County is a SPECIFIC place IN North America!
QUESTION EVERYTHING YOU KNOW TO BE TRUE! 
Edited by jimhanson on Sep. 18 2003,10:30 am
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 66
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 18 2003,10:44 am |
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According to the website, Muslim rule wasn't even established until 638. Read carefully through the entire text--there was no COUNTRY called Palestine in ancient times.
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Islam was founded by the Prophet Muhammad who was born in 569 and the angel Gabriel didn't come speak to him until the year 610(?) he died in 632 and 6 years later Muslim rule was established. When would you have liked Muslim rule to be established, before Muhammad became a prophet and started the Islamic religion?
Even if we agreed that Palestine was only a region then are you telling me that having a COUNTRY with well defined borders and a central form of government is the only thing that makes me an American? If the American government collapsed tomorrow what would you and I become since America wouldn't be a COUNTRY anymore. What would we call ourselves? And could anyone that wants just settle on our lands.
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Since the 1967 7-day war, and heightened Arab "activity" (rocket attacks, car bombings, suicide attacks, suicide bombings, etc.), the "politically correct" educational establishment has "taught" generations of school kids that the "activists" only wanted to reconstitute their original homeland that was taken from them by the Israelis.
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It's kind of funny that you believe that Hawaii, Tahiti, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq and other countries were all populated by indigenous people prior to WW I, but, you find it impossible to believe that the "Promised Land" had any indigenous people whatsoever. It's like the "Promised Land" was waiting for over 2,000 years for the Israelis to come and settle it.
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Page after page of encyclopedia text seems to confirm this.
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Not one sentence you've posted from that site has confirmed that there isn't a Palestinian people. You are reading what you want into the encyclopedia.com text.
You are right about one thing and that is that you can lay all the FACTS before some people and NEVER change their minds!
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 67
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 18 2003,11:17 am |
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I was quoting the encyclopedia reference on the establishment of Muslim rule IN THE AREA KNOWN AS PALESTINE--not the date of establishment of the Muslim religion.| Quote | | Even if we agreed that Palestine was only a region then are you telling me that having a COUNTRY with well defined borders and a central form of government is the only thing that makes me an American? |
You reside within the United States. You are also an American. People of Canada and Mexico, and even South Americans consider themselves American--if you want to really start a fight, try telling one of them that they are NOT. If the U.S. ceased to exist--if it was conquered by another country, and absorbed through millenia INTO that or successive countries (as Palestine was), your heirs would no longer be United States Citizens--but your heirs would still be Americans--my point exactly.| Quote | | It's kind of funny that you believe that Hawaii, Tahiti, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq and other countries were all populated by indigenous people prior to WW I, but, you find it impossible to believe that the "Promised Land" had any indigenous people whatsoever. It's like the "Promised Land" was waiting for over 2,000 years for the Israelis to come and settle it. |
I don't know where that came from--what I DID say was| Quote | | "Even before the Palestinians or the Jews were in Palestine, a group of people known as Canaanites had established themselves there. Around 4000 BC, the Canaanites, who were a Semitic people from the inner Arabian (does that make them Arabs? )peninsula, settled in the land which came to be known as Canaan and later, Palestine. One of the Canaanite tribes, the Jebusites, built a settlement which they called Urusalim (Jerusalem), meaning "the city of peace"." |
| Quote | | Not one sentence you've posted from that site has confirmed that there isn't a Palestinian people. |
Go to the aforementioned web site http://www.arab.net/palestine/ --even though it is a pro-Palestinian web site, even THEY don't make ANY claim that there WAS a Palestinian state--especially in the last couple of thousand years.
I don't want any hard feelings over this--I'm willing to agree to disagree--or to keep on bringing in other points--I've learned a lot, and find it interesting--just checking to make sure everyone is OK with this.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 68
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 18 2003,1:08 pm |
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The reason for my post explaining when Islamic religion was founded was because you had said,
"According to the website, Muslim rule wasn't even established until 638". I was just trying to point out that the religion was less than 40 years old in the year 638 when Muslim rule was established in Palestine.
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If the U.S. ceased to exist--if it was conquered by another country, and absorbed through millenia INTO that or successive countries (as Palestine was), your heirs would no longer be United States Citizens--but your heirs would still be Americans--my point exactly.
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Why would my heirs still be Americans, yet a Palestinians heirs aren't Palestinian?
You say "My point exactly" , but, remember the point that started this whole discussion was that you said.
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there ARE no Palestinian people--any more than "Ebonics" is a true language....
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To which I replied "I don't know about ebonics but there certainly are Palestinian people."
It seems you forgot where you stand on this issue and where I do. You were trying to tell everyone that there is no such thing as a Palestinian and I say there is a Palestinian people. You throw out the argument that they were never a country just a region or an area so they can't be Palestinians, and I say it doesn't matter they are still Palestinians.
Why would anyone have any hard feelings over this discussion?
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 69
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 18 2003,2:13 pm |
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Here is the entire post about the date of establishing Muslim religion in the area. I didn't mean to imply that that was the date of the establishment of the Muslim religion.| Quote | | Here is the history of Palestine from http://www.arab.net/palestine/ a pro-palestinian website. According to the website, Muslim rule wasn't even established until 638. |
Reading the entire website would establish that. That means that the region of Palestine wasn't even moslem until 400+ years after it ceased being a nation!
Please comment on this item posted previously| Quote | | You reside within the United States. You are also an American. People of Canada and Mexico, and even South Americans consider themselves American--if you want to really start a fight, try telling one of them that they are NOT. If the U.S. ceased to exist--if it was conquered by another country, and absorbed through millenia INTO that or successive countries (as Palestine was), your heirs would no longer be United States Citizens--but your heirs would still be Americans |
If the U.S. had ceased to exist for 2000 years, it would be a real stretch to still call yourself a U.S. citizen. The oldest continuing surviving republic in the world, Iceland, is only half that age, at 1,000 years. Those people came from Norway, Sweden, and Denmark--but THEY don't call themselves Swedes, Norwegians, or Danes. Descendants of people that came over on the Mayflower 400 years ago don't identify themselves as English--even though THAT country still exists! Your heirs WOULD still be able to call themselves Americans, because they still live in the AREA called America--even though their country no longer existed.
What ABOUT the Etruscans, Babylonians, Persians, Spartans, Trojans, Epicurians, Pelopponnesians, or any OTHER "dead" nations? Where is the National Homeland claim for THEM?
Where exactly is Palestine? The core area, as defined by encyclopedia.com, is approximately 120 miles by 30-70 miles--but with the area trading ownership dozens of times over the years, the actual boundaries vary by hundreds of square miles. It is about as amorphous as defining "Northern Iowa". Where is the southern boundary of Northern Iowa? The eastern? Is Decorah in Eastern Iowa or Northern Iowa?
Regarding the last question--just making sure--it is dangerous business to argue religion or politics, and we're doing BOTH here--this two-bit argument isn't worth anybody getting angry over--and some people might think that I was getting angry with you because you JUST CAN'T SEE THE FACTS--or I'm not articulate enough to explain my position! (that's a joke, by the way--where IS that sarcasm icon?)
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 70
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KODIAK
Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 18 2003,2:56 pm |
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Whew, both guns blazin. I don't think either Jim or Liberal are going to conceed. Interesting part of the dialogue though is the "who does the region belong to" references, leading to the "are you afraid we will have to give back Manhattan" spew. Columbus named the people he ran into here "Indians" because he mistakenly thought he was in east Asia.
Currently, the combined tribes of the Pacific Northwest are being sued for access to the remains of Kennibec Man, an amazingly intact skeleton of a non-"indian" that predates any known remains of "native" people by several thousand years.
The tribes desperately want these remains to stay out of scientific hands (again, claiming they are sacred) because the ramifications would be devastating. Reparations for land supposedly taken away would cease, and tribal sovereignty in situations such as netting rights and gambling would have new challenges. It really doesn't take Kennibec Man to start that argument anyway. As Jim points out, absorbtion into current society or having been conquered over a period of time most of the time superceeds "ownership" If you like looking at maps, look at Eastern Europe every 10 years since 1905. In more recent cases, the Sioux tribes claim to much of this regions land is false. They took it away from the Chippewa and many smaller tribes. According to their own gospel, nobody is supposed to own the land anyway, it belongs to "Mother Earth". Enought rant for now, back to my den.
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"Dyin ain't much of a living.....boy" Clint (Outlaw Josie Wales)
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