|
|
| Post Number: 41
|
Liberal 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
 |
Posted on: Sep. 13 2003,12:34 pm |
|
   |
| Quote |
Just when WAS the last time there was a Palestine or Israel, except for modern times--200 A.D.?
|
Here is an 1836 map of Palestine. I can post a 5th century Roman map of Palestine also if you need further proof. 
Israel needs to follow the Oslo Agreement and get the hell out of the west bank and the Gaza strip. Then the world needs to drop a peace keeping force right in the middle. If they want to fight then they would have to go through the peacekeeping force to get at each other.
One other thing, one of Sadats Arab brothers did kill him for moving towards peace. But, Yitzhak Rabin was killed by his Jewish brothers for the same reason just 8 years ago.
--------------
The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
|
 |
|
|
| Post Number: 42
|
Ole1kanobe
Group: Members
Posts: 1360
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: Sep. 13 2003,12:36 pm |
|
 |
You are right in saying that the prejudice problem seems more extreme up here, and in many places it is. What you have to take into consideration though, is the fact that most of the problems in the South happened (or started) long before that way of thinking started to be common up here in the North, so even though it may still take the same amount of time for it to get to be as mellowed out as down South, you have to consider that it started down there earlier than up here. Also, a lot of the prejudice is not so much towards black people as it is towards Asian's (in general). Take Owatonna for example, they have entire neighborhoods that are of one race, I was caught in one of them once after dark (got lost with a buddy after a few beers at South Park), it has been quite a while since I have actually been afraid to get out of the vehicle, I sure was that night, even with liquid courage pulsing through my veins. You definitely know you're in the wrong 'hood when you stop for a stop sign and your vehicle starts to get surrounded. (needless to say that was the last stop sign we obeyed until we got back into familiar territory) But then again, I have heard the same about being in the wrong place at the wrong time up north here in MN, also. There are a lot of Indians that seem to think that all white people are direct descendants of the people that originally wrote up the treaties that were not honored. (do all crackers really look that much the same?  ) Hate is basically everywhere now days, it seems that you can't really get away from it. It is just in a different stage of its life up here than down South. Down South is just a perfect example of how long hate can live and thrive after change has come to pass.
That and Yanks seem to be a little less cordial than Southerners as a whole. (I can almost feel the stones being thrown at me now!) People up here need to learn to slow down, relax a little and enjoy what you can from life.
--------------
The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
-Albert Einstein-
Some of what is said here (myself included) is about as tolerable as listening to someone vacuum a cat.
-nphilbro-
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 43
|
hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: Sep. 13 2003,12:43 pm |
|
|
Liberal, nice job, I couldnt agree with you more.
--------------
The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 44
|
jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: Sep. 13 2003,3:57 pm |
|
|
It ISN'T A COUNTRY OR NATION, and NEVER HAS BEEN ONE--it is a GEOGRAPHICAL REGION, ruled by many nations, and ill-defined in scale and scope. Here is the entire history of Palestine from Encylopedia.com
| Quote | "The earliest known inhabitants of Palestine were of the same group as the Neanderthal inhabitants of Europe. By the 4th millennium BC Palestine was inhabited by herders and farmers. It was in the 3d millennium that most of the towns known in historical times came into existence. They became centers of trade for Egyptian and Babylonian goods. During the 2d millennium, Palestine was ruled by the Hyksos and by the Egyptians. Toward the end of this period Moses led the Hebrew people (see Jews ) out of Egypt, across the Sinai, and into Palestine.
Around 1200 BC, the Philistines ( “Sea Peoples” ) invaded the southern coastland and established a powerful kingdom (see Philistia ). The Hebrews were subject to the Philistines until c.1000 BC, when an independent Hebrew kingdom was established under Saul , who was succeeded by David and then by Solomon . After the expansionist reign of Solomon (c.950 BC), the kingdom broke up into two states, Israel, with its capital at Samaria, and Judah, under the house of David, with its capital at Jerusalem. The two kingdoms were later conquered by expanding Mesopotamian states, Israel by Assyria (c.720 BC) and Judah by Babylonia (586 BC).
In 539 BC the Persians conquered the Babylonians. The Jewish Temple, destroyed by the Babylonians, was rebuilt (516 BC). Under Persian rule Palestine enjoyed considerable autonomy. Alexander the Great of Macedon, conquered Palestine in 333 BC His successors, the Ptolemies and Seleucids, contested for Palestine. The attempt of the Seleucid Antiochus IV (Antiochus Epiphanes) to impose Hellenism brought a Jewish revolt under the Maccabees , who set up a new Jewish state in 142 BC The state lasted until 63 BC, when Pompey conquered Palestine for Rome.
Christianity and Islam
Palestine at the time of Jesus was ruled by puppet kings of the Romans, the Herods (see Herod ). When the Jews revolted in AD 66, the Romans destroyed the Temple (AD 70). Another revolt between AD 132 and 135 was also suppressed (see Bar Kokba, Simon ), Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed, and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. When Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity (312), Palestine became a center of Christian pilgrimage, and many Jews left the region. Palestine over the next few centuries generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614 by the Persians. It was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans, but fell to the Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar by the year 640.
At this time (during the Umayyad rule), the importance of Palestine as a holy place for Muslims was emphasized, and in 691 the Dome of the Rock was erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon, which is claimed by Muslims to have been the halting station of Muhammad on his journey to heaven. Close to the Dome, the Aqsa mosque was built. In 750, Palestine passed to the Abbasid caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions that favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.
In the 9th cent., Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid dynasty, which had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many enemies—the Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins—and Palestine became a battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996-1021), the Christians and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed. In 1099, Palestine was captured by the Crusaders (see Crusades ), who established the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. The Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the battle of Hittin (1187), and the Latin Kingdom was ended; they were finally driven out of Palestine by the Mamluks in 1291. Under Mamluk rule Palestine declined.
Turkish Rule
In 1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. The first three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. In 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. Among the many European settlements established, the most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews being the first to come (1882).
Conflict between Arabs and Zionists
In the late 19th cent. the Zionist movement was founded (see Zionism ) with the goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and dozens of Zionist colonies were founded there. At the start of the Zionist colonization of Palestine in the late 19th cent., the rural people were Arab peasants (fellahin). Most of the population were Muslims, but in the urban areas there were sizable groups of Arab Christians (at Nazareth, Bethlehem, and Jerusalem) and of Jews (at Zefat, Tiberias, Jerusalem, Jericho, and Hebron).
At the same time Arab nationalism was developing in the Middle East in opposition to Turkish rule. In World War I the British, with Arab aid, gained control of Palestine. In the Balfour Declaration (1917) the British promised Zionist leaders to aid the establishment of a Jewish “national home” in Palestine, with due regard for the rights of non-Jewish Palestinians. However, the British had also promised Arab leaders to support the creation of independent Arab states. The Arabs believed Palestine was to be among these, an intention that the British later denied.
In 1919 there were about 568,000 Muslims, 74,000 Christians, and 58,000 Jews in Palestine. The first Arab anti-Zionist riots occurred in Palestine in 1920. The League of Nations approved the British mandate in 1922, although the actual administration of the area had begun in 1920. As part of the mandate Britain was given the responsibility for aiding the Jewish homeland and fostering Jewish immigration there. The British stressed that their policy to aid the homeland did not include making all Palestine the homeland, but rather that such a home should exist within Palestine and that there were economic limits on how many immigrants should be admitted (1922 White Paper).
In the 1920s, Jewish immigration was slight, but the Jewish communities made great economic progress. In 1929 there was serious Jewish-Arab violence occasioned by a clash at the Western, or Wailing, Wall in Jerusalem. A British report found that Arabs feared the economic and political consequences of continued Jewish immigration with its attendant land purchases. Zionists were angered when a new White Paper (1930) urged limiting immigration, but they were placated by Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald (1931).
The rise of Nazism in Europe during the 1930s led to a great increase in immigration. Whereas there were about 5,000 immigrants authorized in 1932, about 62,000 were authorized in 1935. Arabs conducted strikes and boycotts; a general strike in 1936, organized by Haj Amin al Husayni, mufti of Jerusalem, lasted six months. Some Arabs acquired weapons and formed a guerrilla force. The Peel commission (1937), finding British promises to Zionists and Arabs irreconcilable, declared the mandate unworkable and recommended the partition of Palestine into Jewish, Arab, and British (largely the holy places) mandatory states. The Zionists reluctantly approved partition, but the Arabs rejected it, objecting particularly to the proposal that the Arab population be forcibly transferred out of the proposed Jewish state.
The British dropped the partition idea and announced a new policy (1939 White Paper). Fifteen thousand Jews a year would be allowed to immigrate for the next five years, after which Jewish immigration would be subject to Arab acquiescence; Jewish land purchases were to be restricted; and within 10 years an independent, binational Palestine would be established. The Zionists were shocked by what they considered a betrayal of the Balfour Declaration. The Arabs also rejected the plan, demanding instead the immediate creation of an Arab Palestine, the prohibition of further immigration, and a review of the status of all Jewish immigrants since 1918.
The outbreak of World War II prevented the implementation of the plan, except for the restriction on land transfers. The Zionists and most Arabs supported Britain in the war (although Haj Amin al Husayni was in Germany and negotiated Palestine's future with Hitler), but tension inside Palestine increased. The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish Agency, and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active. British officials were killed by the terrorists. The horrible plight of European Jewry led influential forces in the United States to lobby for support of an independent Jewish state, and President Truman requested that Britain permit the admission of 100,000 Jews. Illegal immigration, often involving survivors of Hitler's death camps, took place on a large scale. The independent Arab states organized the Arab League to exert internationally what pressure they could against the Zionists.
An Anglo-American commission recommended (1946) that Britain continue administering Palestine, rescind the land-transfer restrictions, and admit 100,000 Jews, and that the underground Jewish armed groups be disbanded. A plan for autonomy for Jews and Arabs within Palestine was discussed at a London conference (1947) of British, Arabs, and Zionists, but no agreement could be reached. The British, declaring their mandate unworkable and despairing of finding a solution, turned the Palestine problem over to the United Nations (Feb., 1947). At that time there were about 1,091,000 Muslims, 614,000 Jews, and 146,000 Christians in Palestine." |
A careful read will reveal NO COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE in all those years--only a REGION called Palestine--kind of like Europe, or given the small and indeterminate size of the region, perhaps a better illustration is "Brittany" (the region in France, not the singer)  . In the Americas "the Pampas" is another example--ill defined, belonging to several countries over the ages, but still a region, not a country.
Looking at the map on the computer, it is hard to see the names on all of the countries or subregions, but it would seem to indicate that Palestine is a Region--claimed by MANY countries--and whose boundaries are constantly changing. Syria, Jordan, and modern day Iraq have at various times controlled the region. As seen in the above description, even Israel ruled it for a while, as Judea and Israel. As described above, it has been under rule of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) since they defeated the Crusaders in 1187. During the time of the map depicted (1936), it was ruled by none other than Muhammed Ali--described as an Egyptian puppet of the Ottoman empire (1831-1840).
Both Sadat and Rabin were killed by their own side for moving towards peace--but that wasn't my point. The point was, once again--THE ONLY TIME A MULTINATIONAL FORCE HAS BEEN ABLE TO KEEP THE PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS WHEN BOTH SIDES OBSERVED A CEASE-FIRE--and that was in the Sinai (returned to Egypt by Israel after defeating them in the 7-day war). Sadat had control of his people and his army--Arafat doesn't control either. I proposed a demilitarized zone on the West Bank--and I think Israel would accept it--IF THE OCCUPYING POWER WAS ABLE TO ASSURE PEACE. I wouldn't trust that responsibility to the U.N., with THEIR dismal record, and with nobody powerful enough on the Palestinian side to control their people. Finally--IF the U.N. were to take on the responsibility--WHO would be the "muscle"? I would HOPE it would fall to the "international community" (an oxymoron--the U.N. has no sense of "community"--"people living in the same district, city, country, under the same laws"--Websters), but WHO would the impartial referee be? The U.S.? Great Britain? France? Russia?--we've all had our "turn in the box", and wouldn't be viewed as impartial. What other international powerhouse could keep the peace?
Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely NOT advocating for Israel--I'd like to "undo" the U.N. mistake of 1947 and move it somewhere else--but that is unlikely--hardly facing reality. It is ridiculous that people are fighting over a sparsly populated piece of desert with few natural resources--some of the least desireable real estate in the world. Let them fight--everybody stay clear--maybe like two schoolboys, they'll figure out they will BOTH get hurt, and may even get along.
Edited by jimhanson on Sep. 13 2003,4:01 pm
--------------
"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 45
|
MADDOG
Group: Moderator
Posts: 7821
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: Sep. 15 2003,2:23 pm |
|
|
found this in the Right-Wing Newspaper:
MARINE CORPS BUMPER STICKER ..."IT'S GOD'S RESPONSIBILITY TO FORGIVE BIN LADEN... IT'S OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ARRANGE THE MEETING!!"
--------------
Actually my wife is especially happy when my google check arrives each month. Thanks to douchbags like you, I get paid just for getting you worked up. -Liberal
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 46
|
cpu_slave
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: Sep. 16 2003,9:47 am |
|
|
| Quote | | All right--I've thrown out MY views and thoughts on the Middle East problem--time for anyone else to throw out THEIR views on how to solve it. |
Ok Jim- just a few quick ideas-
How about everyone just admits that Israel was a mistake, move out all the jews and let the area go back to what it was before the UN created it?
Tactically Nuke the region so no one wants to claim it?
Cut off (or give the exact same) aid to everyone? (one tank for Israel, one tank for Palestine, etc.)?
As I have seen pointed out here in this very thread, I am tired of the double standard we have shown with regards to Israel. Iraq violated sanctions and the US felt justified into going in and making the mess there now, so why was Israel allowed to violate sanctions and not receive any sort of punishment? And people wonder why the Arab world hates the US so much? I say we give Isreal the same spanking we gave Iraq and we may just be seen as the just peacekeepers that we want everyone to believe we are. If we continue to just let Israel do as they wish, there will never be peace. It is past time to smack them around like a red-headed stepchild!
--------------
An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 47
|
hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: Sep. 16 2003,11:10 am |
|
|
Amen brother, amen. Well said cpu_slave.
--------------
The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 48
|
jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: Sep. 16 2003,1:13 pm |
|
|
Welcome back, CPUslave--we really HAVE missed your input!
"How about everyone just admits that Israel was a mistake, move out all the jews and let the area go back to what it was before the UN created it?" I ALREADY POSTED IN FAVOR OF THAT.
Nuke the region? I'd be in favor of that, but we know that isn't going to happen--It IS fair to both sides, though!
Parity in weapons? Works for me--but how about NO weapons for EITHER side?
Leave them alone, let them settle this themselves--and nobody needs to get involved. (One problem, Israel MAY have nuclear weapons). (Problem # 2--the Israeli's have an aircraft industry capable of turning out state-of-the-art aircraft--the Arabs don't).
We agree on this--how do we keep everyone ELSE out?
P.s.--if it is REALLY a fair fight, without ANY outside interference--I think the Las Vegas "Line" would favor the Israelis--based on their training, "lack of injuries", "depth on the bench", "coaching", and "prior record against the same opponents!"
--------------
"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 49
|
Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: Sep. 16 2003,2:24 pm |
|
|
| Quote |
A careful read will reveal NO COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE in all those years--only a REGION called Palestine...... |
What would you call a person that lived in the "Region" of Palestine?
--------------
The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 50
|
cpu_slave
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: Sep. 16 2003,3:18 pm |
|
|
It's nice to be back Jim- Thanks-
As far as the 'Vegas Line'- I would have to put money on the Palestinians. I still have not seen an Israeli with the stones to be a suicide bomber so I will have to go with sheer will. Reality check though, there will never be a fight without some country (US) sticking it's nose where it does not belong, and that will only invite the entire Arab League to join the fray.
Just like anywhere, if you want real change (in this case peace) you need to change the leadership. The Palestinians will not replace Arafat and the Israelis elected Sharon for his hard stance on Palestine. Just look at the statements this week from Israel stating that they want to 'remove' Arafat, pretty arrogant if you ask me.
I say if the US is going to start playing 'world cop' then it needs to step up and put the smack-down on Israel. Start by having them withdrawal from the agreed upon areas, release all the political prisoners (POW's) and just STFU! Once that happens, the Palestinians need to immediately stop the assaults on the Israelis. After some time goes by and everything is looking ok then make them an independent state. Is any of this going to happen? Not likely.
Realistic option: Give then 7 days to declare peace in the region or we nuke. //bombs away!//
--------------
An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
