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| Post Number: 81
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jimhanson 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 22 2003,2:41 pm |
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Welcome back! I was wondering what took you so long to respond--figured maybe it was because you were having problems finding and booking a trip to Palestine!  Impossible to do, isn't it--BECAUSE THE PLACE DOESN'T EXIST AS A NATION! YOU COULD JUST AS WELL TRY TO BOOK A TRIP TO "NEVERLAND" (the one with Tinkerbell fairies, NOT the one owned by the singer that has "sleepovers" with boys!)
No, I will not concede that there are "Palestinian People" with a claim on the land--as we have seen from the history of the area--EVERYONE seems to have ruled the land at one time or another--including the Hebrews. Somehow, you equate Palestinians with Arabs--when the Hebrews ruled it longer than anyone else. Here is a good read I found on the subject from Citypages.com
| Quote | Did you know that there was never any country called Palestine? Did you know that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people?
The ideas that the West Bank and Gaza are occupied Palestinian land and that the Palestinian people are fighting for their land have been accepted by most of the governments of the world and by most of the media in the world. But if you read on, you will see that these two claims are the biggest lies ever deliberately perpetrated on humanity.
Check out any map of the Middle East and see for yourself. You will find Palestine listed as a region, as it always has been, but definitely not a country. We can locate the Mojave Desert on the map, but we still do not recognize it as our 51st state, let alone a country. Similarly, Siberia is a region, not a state. Or the Sahara is a region, not a state, etc. Neither is Palestine a state. It never was a country, just a region.
The Jews did not displace anyone, because no one permanently resided there. It was a land inhabited by nomadic Bedouin tribes. The whole region was nothing but deserts and swamps. Only about 120,000 Arabs resided in an area that covered the territories, Israel and Jordan. When Mark Twain visited the area, he wrote that he found nothing but a wasteland.
During the 19 years that the territories, including Jerusalem and Gaza, were occupied by the kingdom of Jordan and Egypt, no one talked about a Palestinian state; not the Arab countries, not the United Nations. Nobody asked Jordan or Egypt to abdicate their ownership and give it to the Palestinians. Not even the Palestinians themselves said anything about a Palestinian state or a Palestinian people, because nobody heard of a Palestinian people. It never existed.
The fact simply is that there are no Palestinians. These people are Arabs like all other Arabs, and they happen to live in a region called Palestine. They are not a separate people.
What makes a separate people? Religion, language, culture, garb, cuisine, etc., etc. The Arabs in Palestine speak the same language, practice the same religion, have the same culture, etc., as all the other Arabs.
The Arabs living in Syria, Jordan and other nearby states are also the same Arabs, but they are each a separate nation because they each have a separate country. The so-called Palestinians want a separate country because they claim to be a separate nation. They are not. They were never a separate people before the new state of Israel. How did they become one now? |
I'm going home tonight to Clarks Grove--the NATIONAL HOMELAND FOR THE DANES! Even though Denmark never ruled it, even though it rests within Freeborn County, and the State of Minnesota, in the United States of America--by your thinking, we can "claim" it just a surely as the arabs can claim a mythical place in the desert as their own--because we somehow "own" it--"our people" settled there at the turn of the last century--now all we have to do is throw out those "infidel" Norwegians, Swedes, and Germans!
Edited by jimhanson on Sep. 22 2003,2:56 pm
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 82
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 22 2003,3:48 pm |
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It seems that now you've resorted to reposting other peoples opinion. Not one verifiable fact in that whole repost you just made just someones opinion. Then you don't even credit the opinion.
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The Jews did not displace anyone, because no one permanently resided there. It was a land inhabited by nomadic Bedouin tribes. The whole region was nothing but deserts and swamps. Only about 120,000 Arabs resided in an area that covered the territories, Israel and Jordan. When Mark Twain visited the area, he wrote that he found nothing but a wasteland.
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on the same trip Mark Twain described Greece Lebanon and Syria the same way. Here is what he said about Greece.
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From Athens all through the islands of the Grecian Archipelago, we saw little but forbidden sea-walls and barren hills, sometimes surmounted by three or four graceful columns of some ancient temples, lonely and deserted---a fitting symbol of desolation that has come upon all Greece in these latter ages. We saw no plowed fields, very few villages, no trees or grass or vegetation of any kind, scarcely, and hardly ever an isolated house. Greece is a bleak, unsmiling desert, without agriculture, manufactures, or commerce, apparently."
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So if we believe Mark Twain there is no agriculture, commerce or manufacturing in Greece either.
As far as your unsubstantiated opinion on the population.
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Based on Ottoman census records in the late 19th and early 20th century, Palestine was widely inhabited at the time especially in the rural areas where agriculture was the main profession. According to Justine McCarthy the population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000 people, and in 1914 , just before the outbreak of WWI, Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslims Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews (including many European Jews from the first and second Aliyah). So the Jewish population of Palestine in 1914 made up under 8% of the total population, which was much smaller than the Palestinian Christian population. It should be noted that the source, Justine McCarthy, is an authority on the Ottoman Turks who is often quoted by many Israeli Jewish scholars like Benny Morris and Tom Segev.
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It's on page 26 of the book.
Now let's see you prove the numbers that you just posted in that opinion that you gleened from some website.
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 83
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Bubba
Group: Members
Posts: 94
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 22 2003,5:29 pm |
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Some how the US in Iraq has become Jim and Liberal's debate; argument; discussion on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I'm tiered of waiting for one of them to win, and am declairing Jim the winner because he has the balls to rob the Palestinians of their history by declairing that they do not exist. Jim you win. I don't know who the Israelis are fighting but who ever they are Jim wins! End of argument!
Back to Iraq, Did anyone see what Kennedy said about the war last week? What do you think? Could he be right? How about General Clark? Do you think these guys are on to something or are they Just trying to make our President look bad for a Democratic victory next election?
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| Post Number: 84
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 22 2003,6:15 pm |
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The piece was attributed to citypaper.net If it is important to you, the author's name was Sharon Nader-Sloan. How can you be offended by my posting a paper that parallels my own posts--but you offer documentation gleaned from other web sites? Are encylopedias and web sites off limits?
Any luck finding the answer to the question previously posed above? | Quote | | During the 19 years that the territories, including Jerusalem and Gaza, were occupied by the kingdom of Jordan and Egypt, no one talked about a Palestinian state; not the Arab countries, not the United Nations. Nobody asked Jordan or Egypt to abdicate their ownership and give it to the Palestinians. Not even the Palestinians themselves said anything about a Palestinian state or a Palestinian people, because nobody heard of a Palestinian people. It never existed. |
Why is the census data conducted by TURKEY in the 1800s more "authoritative" than the observations by Mark Twain? Here is his observation, directly from his book, with attribution: | Quote | "There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent [valley of Jezreel] -- not for 30 miles in either direction . . . . One may ride 10 miles hereabouts and not see 10 human beings.
"For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee . . . Nazareth is forlorn . . . Jericho lies a moldering ruin . . . Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation . . . untenanted by any living creature . . . .
"A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds . . a silent, mournful expanse . . . a desolation . . . . We never saw a human being on the whole route . . . . Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country . . . ."
"Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes . . . desolate and unlovely . . . .-- Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad, 1867 |
In a previous post, you asked for the name of scholars that shared the same opinion. Though there are many, here is a quote from one of the most pre-eminent--| Quote | The entire Middle East has been divided and nation-states invented by the French and the British. Borders were decided by them and not by the natives. There was no Syria, no Algeria, no Tunisia. There was no Palestine. There was no Iraq. And the exotic names for these places were given to the world by conquerors, not the local people who lived there. Eminent historian Bernard Lewis, who is fluent in Arabic, Hebrew, Turkish and several other Middle Eastern languages, tells us there are no words for many places in the Middle East, like Algeria and Tunisia because the Arab sense of place was different than our identification of a place as a nation and places like Libya, Palestine, Syria, etc., are actually names from the Roman Empire to identify Roman geography. There is also no word in Arabic for Arabia. These words were invented by Europeans. Palestine (Syria Palestina) was a word invented by the Romans.
(Bernard Lewis is Professor Emeritus of Princeton University and Princeton's Institute for Advanced Study and a former member of the faculty of the University of London. He has written dozens of books about the Middle East) |
Thank you for the reference to Justine McCarthy. I took the time to look up the author, and find fascinating details about estimating the population of the area--I will make it a point to read further. It can be found at http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre....59.html I am sure we each can find quotes from this scholarly work to support whatever view we have. Here is what he had to say about the data process (presumably used in the table you quoted above) [quote]"No population registrar in the Ottoman Empire, the Palestine Mandate, Jordan, or Israel ever asked a census question on national self-identification. The Ottomans did not even consider the possibility of such a question; the others did not want to know.
For the Ottoman period, the answer to the question of Palestinian identity is, statistically at least, fairly simple. The Ottomans kept records only by religious affiliation. Although they did not use "national" distinctions such as Syrian, Iraqi, or Palestinian, one can consider as Palestinians those Ottoman subject Muslims and Christians who lived in Palestine (defined as the area that would become the Palestine Mandate) between 1517 and 1917. This includes very few whose descendants would NOT consider themselves Palestinians. "
McCarthy's work shows an exponential explosion in the last 2 decades of those who consider themselves Palestinians--far more than can be accounted for by birth or migration. Palestine must be a happening place! Any luck finding any of the government agencies, airlines, private companies, or ANYBODY WHO KNOWS WHERE THIS NIRVANA IS?
Edited by jimhanson on Sep. 22 2003,6:31 pm
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 85
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 22 2003,6:48 pm |
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Sorry, Bubba--I didn't see your post until I hit the post button. Yes, I agree, we are just using up bandwidth here--like the Arabs (I didn't say anything about those wascawy Palestinians! ) and Israelis, nothing will EVER be settled. We've already taken MORE TIME THAN THE ISRAELI's NEEDED TO BEAT THE ENTIRE MIDDLE-EAST ARAB WORLD! (just a "tweak" )
It's often said that "you shouldn't talk religion and politics"--and we're doing BOTH here--Liberal and I have PM'd each other to make sure we're OK with that, but if this isn't of interest to others, we should do it by PM.
These kind of debates are of interest to me, but they aren't everybody's cup of tea. That doggone Liberal has me laying awake nights, trying to figure a way to beat him--it has become all-consuming, kind of like the Coyote and the Roadrunner.
Besides, CPUslave must be feeling neglected, hasn't had a good argument for a while! I don't have enough mental RAM to deal with both of these guys at the same time!
So, just what DID Kennedy, the "HERO OF CHAPPAQUIDDICK", have to say?
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 86
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Mahmoud
Unregistered
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Posted on: Sep. 22 2003,10:04 pm |
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Mr. Hanson, I understand that you think that I am a joke. I assure you I am real. My family lived in the District of Haifa prior to the Zionist distruction of our village, Ijzim. Having lost our business and our home, we moved to the camps in Gaza. Prior to this I had been educated at the American University in Lebanon, but even with a degree, there was no work in the camps. Eventually I went to work for the International Red Cross/Red Cresent. Through my work in the camps with the Red Cross, I met an American Politician who asked me if I would want to bring my family to the United States. In 1956, my wife and I received a sponsor and moved to this country. We arrived with $20 and a few close. As hard as that may seem, it was far better than life in the camps.
It is true that the British put us under the rule of the King of Jordan, we did not strongly object but that did not mean we were Jordanians. We had our own flag and our own identity. That all changed after the second World War. The Jewish population of Palestine increased from approximately 25,000 to 600,000, eventually comprising some 33 per cent of our country's population. The rest is history and the Muslims and Christians lost control of their land, water, and destiny to an invading people who had no connection with our land for nearly 2000 years.
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| Post Number: 87
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 23 2003,8:16 am |
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Read posts above. I'm not re-opening this one.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 88
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KODIAK
Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 23 2003,10:09 am |
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I'm confused now. Am I a Minnesotan? Or as part of the Louisianna Purchase am I French? If Lewis and Clark had not eaten their horses and come back from the wilderness, we would all be Canadian eh? Everybody wants to be a revisionist for their own purpose. You can't make this stuff up.....well, in today's society I guess you can.
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"Dyin ain't much of a living.....boy" Clint (Outlaw Josie Wales)
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