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| Post Number: 41
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Liberal 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 28 2005,11:17 pm |
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The point of the CT was that certain people don't believe that there were "rudimentary tests" done. As far as the debate about whether she was in a PVS or not it was a big part of this discussion and I think the CT makes it abundantly clear that her cerebral cortex is gone and has been replaced by fluid (the big black spot in the middle) it also shows that the brain has some considerable atrophy. Personally I don't understand what was keeping her alive, but I've never understood how a person could be born without a brain either.
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The question is about our right to live or to die and the decision each of us has a right to make.
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It certainly is! And just in case my brain checks out before my body, then just ask my wife what to do with my body, because I've left instructions with her.
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 42
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Older and Wiser
Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: Jan. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 29 2005,6:55 am |
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There are people that would not want to live in a vegetative state, there are people that would decide to live in this state instead of dying. That is the fundamental question before this country. Did she say "No tubes for me" or did she not say this. We will never know. So the test for the future is to have very specifically in writing what your wishes are. There are people that believe a feeding tube is not extraordinary. There are people that believe it is. There are people that want CPR. There are people that do not want it. 
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| Post Number: 43
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 29 2005,10:49 am |
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You're right that some people would like to live as a house plant, but if a person doesn't have a living will or an advance directive the decision is left to the closest family member.
This whole case isn't about what treatment to give her or not to give her. This is about the religious right and their "culture of life" trying to control every aspect of your life from the cradle to the grave. I watched a couple of weirdos on the news and the talking head asked "If the PET scan showed she was brain dead would you agree to the removal?" The woman said "No, because every life is sacred". That shows you what these people are about, these are the same people that can't get over Roe v. Wade. They lost 30+ years ago and now they've lost again, but not even the presidents 46% approval rating will get them to believe that Americans don't want the government telling us what we can and can't do with our bodies.
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 44
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 29 2005,3:29 pm |
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Maddog | Quote | | busy, I'd stay out of this. I think this is between two consenting adults. |
Make that two DISSENTING adults! 
Liberal | Quote | | I think the CT makes it abundantly clear that her cerebral cortex is gone and has been replaced by fluid |
Most physicians state that an MRI or PET is about 10 times as accurate as a CT scan. That is one of the frustrating things about this case--nearly every party involved is dealing with incomplete information.
This isn't our decsion to make. The issues here (and there are many) are: Who has precedence to determine what measures should be taken to keep a person alive? The "husband"? Parents? Siblings? What if she were homeless, with no family--who would make the decision? Doctors? Someone from the government? What constitutes "heroic efforts"--should it be unplugging a ventilator? (Schiavo doesn't have one). Removing a dialysis machine? (she doesn't have one). Witholding medication? (she isn't on any) All she requires is simple food and water--the same as any infant. She hasn't committed a crime--should someone be put to death for being mentally disabled? If "persistent vegetative state" is reason to be put to death, how about dementia? Alzheimers is generally not reversable--should Alzheimers patients be put to death by witholding food and water? How about severely retarded kids? Like Schiavo, they aren't usually on medication, but can't care for themselves--they too have to be fed. Should they be put to death?
Far from being a religious issue, I think this issue touches so many because of all the questions it raises. By a 2-1 majority, most people polled don't think the government should intervene. That axe cuts both ways--the government should not intervene in saving her--and it shouldn't intervene in killing her.
The upside of this is that most of us that keep up on the news (I believe most Forum readers do, but probably only about 20% of the American populace does) have re-examined our own wishes, and taken action to make our wishes known. In my own case, I don't want my wife making the decision--I don't want a family member to be burdened by that thought for the rest of their lives. I'll leave it up to the treating physician--and you can believe that I'll quiz HIM very thoroughly!
Older and Wiser | Quote | | If she stated to Michael prior to 1990 and her incapacitation "no tubes for me" then why was one inserted in the first place? Why ? |
Thank you for pointing out what should have been obvious. I missed that point.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 45
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Whiskero
Group: Members
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mar. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 29 2005,3:41 pm |
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There are 2 things that really bug me. One is the insertion of the tubes in the first place if Teri supposedly didn't want that and the second, if the parents want to take on the emotional and financial responsibility of their daughter, let them. He has obviously went on with his life ( with another woman and kids), so let her parents do what they feel they want to do. It is obvious that on one will ever know for sure what Teri wanted. If the parents feel that there may be some hope left, why take that from them.
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| Post Number: 46
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MADDOG
Group: Moderator
Posts: 7821
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 29 2005,3:42 pm |
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| Quote | | In my own case, I don't want my wife making the decision--I don't want a family member to be burdened by that thought for the rest of their lives. |
No, but I have expressed to my parents and sister that I don't want to be like that.
Let me die in "peace" and meet my maker. We don't have the right to ttry and make this decision. That is between her family and her husband. More so with him.
As several posters indicated, I sorry, but I think it's her husband's choice; whether I like it or not.
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Actually my wife is especially happy when my google check arrives each month. Thanks to douchbags like you, I get paid just for getting you worked up. -Liberal
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| Post Number: 47
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Whiskero
Group: Members
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mar. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 29 2005,3:52 pm |
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I still don't believe his emotional state of mind is totally on his wife. With the other woman and kids in his life, I feel his judgement is impaired. Let the parents take care of their daughter. And that brings up something else. If they have to let her die, then it is a shame that they are not able to have it done humanely. We wouldn't let our dog starve to death.
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| Post Number: 48
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MADDOG
Group: Moderator
Posts: 7821
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 29 2005,4:10 pm |
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I wouldn't let a dog starve to death. Or any other animal for that matter in this way. (An I don't particular like cats) All animals deserve to live.
Niether would I let him 1/2 starve to death. I would go without before I fed a pet. I can take good care of myself, the rest depend on me.
Sorry, this is all about Lacie.
Don't like or agree with it, but it's his call.
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Actually my wife is especially happy when my google check arrives each month. Thanks to douchbags like you, I get paid just for getting you worked up. -Liberal
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| Post Number: 49
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Older and Wiser
Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: Jan. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 29 2005,7:02 pm |
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For a moment just a little sidebar. Michael Schiavo either totally devoted his life to Terri or he is someone who will get away with the perfect crime. Some facts to ponder. After his wifes' incapacitation in 1990 and the windfall he received in 1993, Michael went to school for both respiratory therapy and nursing. He stated he did this so that he could take care of Terri. Or, was it to learn everything he could about the situation so that he could manipulate even the most intricate of details. In sworn affidavits CNA's and RN's stated that Michael would come to visit Terri, take the chart with him into her room and close the door. One RN stated that pages were missing from the chart and she knew this as she had just charted on Terri the previous day: when she reported this she was immediately fired. CNA's would report and nurses would chart that Terri gestured, moaned, groaned, guarded, smiled, fidgeted, followed with her eyes their movements. When Terri would have an incontinent BM she would attempt to fling her arms and get the sheet off of her. They said this was something she always did during her incontinent BM episodes. The staff would attempt to do range of motion, put Terri in her chair, stimulate her, talk to her. They also gave her jello and water, yet she never aspirated. However, it was a well known fact in every facility she resided in that Michael did not want this done, any of it. He did not want the charting to reflect that she could do anything that would not substantiate his claim that she was in a permanent vegetative state. Why? Because in every nursing home facility in the US an assessment is required for each and every resident/patient. The assessment is the federally mandated Minimum Data Set. The assessment is over 500 questions in length and is completed after the patient has been admitted, quarterly, and in any change of condition either a decline or an improvement. In many states this assessment tool is used for reimbursement purposes. Is the resident/patient in a permanent vegetative state is one of the questions. Also, the assessment asks about any type of non-verbal communication that the res has been observed doing. To validate his claim that his wife was in a permanent vegetative state Mr. Schiavo not only needed Physicians assessments and diagnosis, he needed these MDS assessments. The State of Florida has these on record and my bet is that part of his arguments before Judge Greer and every subsequent judge was that no only did the Dr. diagnosis substantiate his claims but so did every MDS that was ever done on Terri. And finally, Dr. Michael Boden was on Greta VanSusteren last noc and Greta asked Dr. Boden if during an autopsy could it be determined how Terri died and if her loss of oxygen was due to a bulemic episode or a stangling would the results be the same? He stated yes. The only thing they could determine during an autopsy that would tell if he did strangle her would be the trauma marks left on her neck. I don't think he strangled her, I think he tried to smother her with a pillow or something and that cannot be determined during an autopsy. Oh, I think this guy got away with the perfect crime. However, just watching the man in interviews he is truly a human being haunted by his past.
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| Post Number: 50
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FlyguyAL
Group: Members
Posts: 588
Joined: Mar. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 29 2005,8:18 pm |
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Older know alot. Almost too much. ;) Maybe you can answer a question I have had all along. I have searched but havent been able to find an answer. How many deaths per year (or however it can be quantified) by removal of the feeding tube?
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