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| Post Number: 51
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Liberal 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 11 2004,10:46 am |
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Thankfully, there have been no abuses of the system--yet. From CNN Civil Rights Complaints--
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The inspector general's office said 272 of those complaints came within its jurisdiction, but even many of those complaints "do not raise issues" that call for its investigation.
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You must have missed the first paragraph where it said
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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The internal watchdog of the Justice Department has found 34 new credible civil rights and civil liberties violations under the anti-terrorism USA Patriot Act, according to a report released Monday.
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Also the paragraph directly over the one you posted. Explained that there were 34 civil rights violations in that 6 month period that were deemed credible and are being investigated.
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For the period of December 16 to June 15, 34 allegations were deemed credible and are being investigated by various officials within the department. Those 34 were among 1,073 complaints received during the period that suggested a Patriot Act-related civil rights or civil liberties connection.
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I sure hope you're a little more thorough when you read a flight plan. "Oh, you wanted to go to Arizona?... I'm sorry, I thought it said Manitoba, I'll just turn this plane around and we'll be there in no time at all" 
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 52
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 11 2004,11:08 am |
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1073 complaints so far--only | Quote | | 34 allegations were deemed credible and are being investigated by various officials within the department |
34 out of 1073--about 3%. I'd say that is pretty good odds for government work! (sarcasm)
As Bill Clinton would maintain after his impeachment--"No convictions" (yet!) 34 cases being investigated, none yet ascertained to be true. You wouldn't want to rush to judgement, like the 98-1 Senate Vote, would you? (sarcasm) Another example of "we must be seen as doing SOMETHING".
Seriously, the law is flawed, and needs to be changed. Just pointing out that there are a LOT of legilators (on both sides of the aisle) that should be hanging their heads in shame--the question is, who has the guts to actually propose the change, and which legislators will vote for it?
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 53
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cwolff
Group: Members
Posts: 265
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 11 2004,1:17 pm |
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Evidently Cpu_slave has not yet heard about the millions of murdered Iraqs' by the dictator Sadam who was indeed a major threat to his own people
| Quote | | Are we back to this old argument again? Threat to his own people and threat to other nations are two completely different subjects. |
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Cpu_slave, yes a threat to his own people and threat to other nations are two completely different subjects. But a threat to other nations is not what you said. You said:| Quote | | because to this day I have seen absolutely no proof that Iraq was a threat to anyone |
Now Cpu_slave you are talking out of both sides of your mouth, you ignoramus!
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| Post Number: 54
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 11 2004,3:05 pm |
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| Quote | | Jim, unfortunatly the plight of the jews during the late 1930's and early 1940's was not reason enough for the US to get involved in WWII- |
OUR problem was that we stood idly by and let it happen--a policy of "non-involvement" espoused by Neville Chamberlain "peace in our time"), ignored by the Vatican, and not dealt with by Rooseveldt.| Quote | | I believe Pearl Harbor was the incident that get us involved. |
Wrong--it was the Japanese that attacked Pearl Harbor. WE didn't declare war on Germany, they declared war on US--then Nazi atrocities BECAME our problem.
| Quote | | The european jews did not try a failed revolt to overthrow their government, |
But the Nazi's DID crush any resistance--look at the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, and the total obliteration of towns that tried to help the Jewish population. If your point is that the Nazi's and Saddam were (emphasis on the past tense, thanks to GWB!) Equal Opportunity Mass Murderer of Millions, I'll accept your alliance with my point of view! | Quote | | and the jews were not victoms of years UN sanctions] |
This NASTY U.N., trading oil for food (instead of weapons). Is this the same U.N. that can't enforce its own sanctions? That can't enforce it's own peace treaty? That can't enforce its own no-fly zones? That Saddam THREW OUT of Iraq? That is so effective at handing out powdered milk? (only a small percentage of humanitarian aid actually gets to the needy because of inefficiency, corruption, and theft). Is this the same mighty U.N. that withdrew its offices from Iraq after its envoy was injured in a bomb explosion? Is this the same U.N. that made sure Saddam followed its dictates, and traded oil for food and medicine, instead of building palaces? YOU'VE GOT ME THERE--THE U.N. SEEMS TO REALLY BE EFFECTIVE! (sarcasm)
These are the people that liberals think we should ask permission of before taking any action--a third-rate dictator debating society, largely financed and propped up by the U.S.--the people that have never won a war yet. Even Clinton gave up on the sorry U.N., and used NATO in Kosovo (for the same reason, liberals are talking about using NATO in Iraq--Iraq is SO CLOSE TO THE NORTH ATLANTIC! (sarcasm)
WHATEVER THE QUESTION IS, THE U.N. ISN'T THE ANSWER!
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 55
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cpu_slave
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 12 2004,10:41 am |
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cwolff- so are you saying that Saddam is to be considered synonymous with Iraq? Saddam may have been a threat to Iraqis, but Iraq (as a nation) was not a threat to any other country. Your attempt to say that I am ‘taking out of both sides of (my) mouth’ just goes to show that illiteracy is still a problem in this country.
| Quote | | OUR problem was that we stood idly by and let it happen--a policy of "non-involvement" |
And it appears that our policy of standing idly by and letting it happen has continued on to this day. Like I have stated in the past, other countries with brutal dictators have and still are performing atrocities on their own populations, so why are we not taking down all these other leaders as well? I can tell you why, because none of these other nations has a resource in their ground that the US is dependent on. And for the record, I do know who bombed Pearl Harbor and what I was saying is that it was that attack that drug the US into WWII and not the plight of the jews.
| Quote | | WHATEVER THE QUESTION IS, THE U.N. ISN'T THE ANSWER! |
Then do you have a better suggestion on how we can get other nations to assist in the rebuilding of Iraq by supplying troops and cash? I’m asking because the ‘coalition of the willing’ has been ‘willing’ only in spirit, with no other real support. Besides, I thought the UN was sitting on a pile of money from the ‘oil for food’ program, so why are we as taxpayers throwing 87+ Billion at this?
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An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
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| Post Number: 56
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cwolff
Group: Members
Posts: 265
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 12 2004,11:43 am |
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Cpu_slave, I am not saying that Saddam is synonymous with Iraq, but I did say that Cpu_slave is synonymous with ignoramus!
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| Post Number: 57
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 12 2004,12:00 pm |
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| Quote | | Then do you have a better suggestion on how we can get other nations to assist in the rebuilding of Iraq by supplying troops and cash? |
Troops and Cash? From the U.N.? Be serious. From the people that haven't won a war yet? From the people that couldn't enforce their own sanctions? From the people that let their own weapons inspectors get thrown out? From the people that cut and ran when their envoy was injured in a bombing? From the people that INSTITUTED "oil for food", then let the dictator spend the money on palaces? Regarding the U.N., it brings up the old bromide "The ultimate in idiocy is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results!"
The lesson was driven home in WW I--troops will not fight under foreign commanders (even British Commonwealth troops--Canada and ANZAC). They haven't been used effectively since--a period of 86 years--but that doesn't stop liberals from proposing it. Even in the NATO "peacekeeping" efforts--troops are segregated by specialties--the U.S. will take the air war, another nation can put in ground troops, etc.
In proposing a U.N. action, liberals forget that the U.S. now fights a technical war. Close air support, or Navy bombardment requires close coordination. Many nations not only don't know how to command such an operation, but lack the ability to coordinate it, and the communications to accomplish it. The U.S. isn't going to let loose access to its Command and control AWACS, for example, or give JDAMs to some third-world country. Can you imagine, as a U.S. soldier, being asked to fight by a third-world "general" that received his promotion through political patronage--whose ideas of command may have stopped in the Napoleonic era, or the Charge of the Light Brigade?
Cash? Who supplies approximately 1/4 of the U.N. cash in the first place? It would be like giving money to the U.N., so they could spend it on ourselves! Only liberals believe that you can give money to the government, and get ALL of it back, without government inefficiency. | Quote | | Besides, I thought the UN was sitting on a pile of money from the ‘oil for food’ program, so why are we as taxpayers throwing 87+ Billion at this? |
Wasn't it you that called the Iraqi people "victims of U.N. sanctions--or was it some other liberal? (It's hard to tell these days, with all the flip-flopping going on with the liberal wing of the Democat party!) If the U.N. DOES have a "pile of money" under "oil for food" (they SHOULDN'T, because the oil money was supposed to go to SADDAM to buy food--but it appears the ever-efficient, ever insightful U.N. LET HIM BUILD PALACES INSTEAD) --why ISN'T the U.N. using that money to rebuild Iraq? OR, did the U.N. SQUANDER the money? OR, if the U.N. is "victimizing" the Iraqi people with their program, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU WANT THOSE CLOWNS TO BECOME INVOLVED?
AS I SAID BEFORE, WHATEVER THE QUESTION IS, THE U.N. ISN'T THE ANSWER --unless it is corruption, inefficiency, inability to institute and oversee its own programs, cowardice, and a 60-year record of being on the losing side of any conflict! 
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 58
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cpu_slave
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 12 2004,12:46 pm |
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cwolff- The only thing worse than your logic is your manners. Your attempt at constructing a creative flame was pitiful. Maybe later in life, after you have learned to read, write, spell, and count, you will have more success. True, these are rudimentary skills that many of us 'normal' people take for granted that everyone has an easy time of mastering, but we sometimes forget that there are 'challenged' persons in this world who find these things more difficult. If I had known, that this was your case then I would have never read your posts, it just wouldn't have been 'right' - Sort of like parking in a handicap space. I wish you the best of luck in the emotional and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you.
--end of feeding the board troll--
| Quote | | troops will not fight under foreign commanders… In proposing a U.N. action, liberals forget that the U.S. now fights a technical war. Close air support, or Navy bombardment requires close coordination. Many nations not only don't know how to command such an operation… |
Jim- I was in now way suggesting that we turn over command and control to 3rd world commanders. I was simply stating that we could use the UN to get some troops from member nations to police the country- sort of like our own troops are doing now. The major combat has ended- or don’t you even believe what duh-bya told you?
| Quote | | Cash? Who supplies approximately 1/4 of the U.N. cash in the first place? |
The UN claims the US still owes money it has never paid, but that is an entirely another issue. Even so, ¼ of $87billion is cheaper than picking up the entire tab on our own.
| Quote | | Wasn't it you that called the Iraqi people "victims of U.N. sanctions--or was it some other liberal? |
Yes it was I who stated that, and no the UN did not simply hand Saddam cash and tell him to buy food. The oil was shipped and sold, and the UN handled the transactions. Some of the proceeds went to repay Kuwait, some went towards purchasing food and medical supplies that were shipped back to Iraq, and the rest went into a UN controlled fund. Saddam gained most of his money for building palaces by selling oil rights to other nations and selling the food and medical supplies received from the UN to his own people. With the sanctions in place, this was really the only way these items came into Iraq.
| Quote | | why ISN'T the U.N. using that money to rebuild Iraq? |
Because the US is in complete control and will not work with the UN at all. Look, the UN has a poor track record and I am not disputing that. Along the same line I am also not advocating complete handover of Iraq to the UN either. All I am suggesting is that the US try and work with the UN to not only offset the cost (personnel and cash) but to also show the Iraqis that others are also there to help. To do this right is going to take years and cost billions of dollars, so do you want to see this done with US military personnel and US tax payers money alone? Like I said, if not the UN then I would like to hear what your suggestion would be because after reading your post over and over I still did not see anything from you other than your berating of liberals and the UN.
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An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
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| Post Number: 59
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 12 2004,3:07 pm |
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| Quote | | Why isn't the U.N. using the money to rebuilt Iraq? |
| Quote | | Because the US is in complete control and will not work with the UN at all |
Are you saying the U.N. couldn't come in and build a water plant? Rebuild a pipeline pumping station? Bring in food? Clean out a canal? OF COURSE, THEY COULD! Do you think the U.S. (or Britain) would keep them out?
The DIFFERENCE is that the U.N. (and the Hollywood actors playing foreign policy experts) would like total U.N. control.| Quote | | To do this right is going to take years and cost billions of dollars, so do you want to see this done with US military personnel and US tax payers money alone? |
At least you aren't like the liberal New York Times--after one month, they were sreaming "Quagmire"--THIS from the PARTY that BROUGHT US VIETNAM.
"Would I rather see this done with the U.S. military and U.S. money alone?" Yes, if it means doing it right. It sounds like we agree on the lack of efficiency and lack of control of the U.N. We DARE NOT FAIL--this is a chance to showcase what we can do--and that we will take care of our obligations.| Quote | | Like I said, if not the UN then I would like to hear what your suggestion would be because after reading your post over and over I still did not see anything from you other than your berating of liberals and the UN. |
Yes, I would rather go it alone than with the "miserable failure" (to use Dick Gephart's words) that is the U.N.
"Berating liberals and the U.N."? Just stating the facts--you seem to agree that the U.N. has a less-than-stellar record. Berating liberals? That's just a sport--though it is so easy that the ASPCL (American Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Liberals) probably would make it a crime for taking advantage of liberals, because they are so vulnerable. (sarcasm)
I know it isn't easy being a liberal these days, having to apologize for everything that John Kerry says (either what he says today or what he said yesterday) Don't take it personally--this is all in fun--I wouldn't trade barbs with anyone that couldn't defend himself--and you do that WELL. Can you imagine Mary Matalin and James Carville living in the same house--if THEY can get along--we all can!
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 60
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Grinning_Dragon
rideo draconigena
Group: Members
Posts: 3095
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 14 2004,1:10 pm |
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Yeah, the UN sucks the big one.
Jim- you are right out of 74 member nations the US pays 25% of the total monies to the UN. Shouldn't we pay 1/74th?
And the reports of the US owing money is just pure BS, go and check out the GOA's web site and filter thru all of the wasted money the US throws around, and you will find the US pays its dues. The money that most of the UN lovers out their decry that the US is not paying is money the US pledges for certain causes, but usually under conditions, if those conditions are not met the US withholds the money.
I for one would love to see the US tell the UN to KISS OFF, and go pound sand up their Azzes. And move that cess-pool of a socialst hotbed building over to Hauge where it belongs.
Sec. General Another CakeHole and his ilk just hate the idea of Americans having protected freedoms, and that the general populace would never bow to their will intesifies their IRE even more.
I could post a whole lot more on the UN and its BS practices, and their stupid mandate on NOT WINNING Wars.
Death to the UN........MOLON LABE
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*SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS / MOLON LABE / Se Defendendo
memoria of cado frater ,Semper fidelis
*The object of war is NOT to DIE for YOUR Country, but to make the OTHER BASTARD DIE for HIS...Patton
My Constitutional Rights trump your dead.
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