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| Post Number: 41
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Liberal 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,5:57 pm |
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Right, compare the Iraqis to the Jews and Saddam to Adolph Hitler and then we're sure to all get behind the Bush and his cronies.
The current administration is a bigger threat to America than Saddam ever was.
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| Post Number: 42
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MrTarzan
Group: Members
Posts: 564
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,6:27 pm |
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You know Liberal, you make a lot of good points, and then you say something dumb like that. The current administration, even if you believe they are misguided or even corrupt, they are not more of a threat then Saddam was. I mean are you for real with that? I wish a lot of things since 9-11 would have been handled different, but I am not afraid of my own government yet. The Patriot Act scares me a little, but I am still studying it and I hope it gets throttled back. You are such a sharp guy, it is to hard to hear you say something that is completely political rhetoric and makes no sense. 
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Be not simply good, be good for something-Henry David Thoreau
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| Post Number: 43
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,7:28 pm |
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Where's the Saddam--Hitler comparison?--I didn't make it! Iraqis and Jews--you've got to admit, there IS a direct comparison--from Neville Chamberlin, to the Warsaw Ghetto. I don't know how much more direct comparison you can make--right down to the "it doesn't concern US", to the "why didn't they take up arms" to the policy of "appeasement". Instead of me telling you why it is the SAME, why don't YOU tell us how it is DIFFERENT?
"Cut and Run" is still the WORST possible foreign policy, no matter WHO does it. As mentioned, Kennedy killed people and alienated Allies in the Bay of Pigs--Bush Sr. in Iraq--Clinton in Somalia, Johnson and Nixon in Vietnam--no WONDER our allies don't trust us! The ONE THING YOU CAN'T LAY ON "W" IS INCONSISTENCY--EVEN HIS DETRACTORS SAY THAT HE DOES WHAT HE SAYS HE WILL DO--to Saddam's dismay. (He thought he would get protection from the U.N.).
Given the choice between someone that does exactly what he says he means to do, and one who is indecisive or flip-flops, I'll take the decisive person every time. We had a saying in the Skydiving community: "He who hesitates--shall inherit the Earth!" 
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 44
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,8:17 pm |
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Sorry if you don't agree with me, but, I stand behind what I said. I don't believe that Saddam was ever a threat to the American way of life, but, I do think the current administration is a big threat to the American way of life. The current administration has violated more americans civil rights than any other administration I can think of and it's all being done in the name of homeland security.
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Where's the Saddam--Hitler comparison?--I didn't make it!
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Cpuslave posted "Threat to his own people and threat to other nations are two completely different subjects." to which you replied, "Hitler, as it turn out, was a threat TO HIS OWN PEOPLE, AS WELL AS THE REST OF THE "NEIGHBORHOOD".
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 45
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,8:34 pm |
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A tenuous (at best), and unintentional reference to Hitler (overused).
I don't see the Administration as a threat. I have some misgivings about the Patriot Act, enacted by Congress with near unanimous acclaim after 9/11. I don't like the way it reads, but on the other hand, it hasn't been used. If it WAS used inappropriately, I'd be against it.
Democrats don't like Ann Coulter, but I like her quote on removing Saddam--"As Bush said, after detailing some of Saddam Hussein's charming practices: "If this is not evil, then Evil has no meaning." It's not as if anyone is worried that we're making a horrible miscalculation and could be removing the Iraqi Abraham Lincoln by mistake!"
Examples of how the Administration threatens the AMERICAN way of life?
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 46
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cpu_slave
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,8:53 pm |
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| Quote | | Hitler, as it turn out, was a threat TO HIS OWN PEOPLE, AS WELL AS THE REST OF THE "NEIGHBORHOOD". Ask the European Jews of WW II |
Jim, unfortunatly the plight of the jews during the late 1930's and early 1940's was not reason enough for the US to get involved in WWII- I believe Pearl Harbor was the incident that get us involved.
| Quote | | Instead of me telling you why it is the SAME, why don't YOU tell us how it is DIFFERENT? |
Just a couple off the top of my head- The european jews did not try a failed revolt to overthrow their government, and the jews were not victoms of years UN sanctions. Saddam killed those who opposed him, and not solely based on ethnicity. Saddam could be more compared to Pol-Pot, and the only difference between Cambodia and Iraq is the black gold under the ground.
| Quote | | Cut and Run" is still the WORST possible foreign policy, no matter WHO does it. As mentioned, Kennedy killed people and alienated Allies in the Bay of Pigs--Bush Sr. in Iraq--Clinton in Somalia, Johnson and Nixon in Vietnam--no WONDER our allies don't trust us! |
I, for one, am not advocating for immediate and quick withdrawl from Iraq. Leaving now would only make a bad situation worse. My problem lies in that we went into Iraq in the first place, based on lies told by the current administration. Now that we have crossed that bridge, we need to be looking for international assistance to offset the cost and the number of US troops, yet this administration is still acting like a selfish child when it comes to this.
| Quote | | The ONE THING YOU CAN'T LAY ON "W" IS INCONSISTENCY--EVEN HIS DETRACTORS SAY THAT HE DOES WHAT HE SAYS HE WILL DO-- |
After 9/11 he told the nation he would go after those responsible. Iraq was not responsible and Osama is still on the lose... and these are just two examples of dubya not doing what he said he would do...
| Quote | | I don't believe that Saddam was ever a threat to the American way of life, but, I do think the current administration is a big threat to the American way of life. The current administration has violated more americans civil rights than any other administration I can think of and it's all being done in the name of homeland security. |
Could not have said it any better myself, Liberal!
| Quote | | Examples of how the Administration threatens the AMERICAN way of life? |
Americans being arrested as being 'terrorists' and the administration trying them in courts with all public records sealed. Acts passed into law that allow the government to gather information on it's citizens that border on violating the basic rights to privacy. Jim, the patriot act may not have been abused -yet- but as history has shown, if the law can be abused it is only a matter of time before it will be.
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An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
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| Post Number: 47
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,10:48 pm |
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Examples of how the Administration threatens the AMERICAN way of life?
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With the PATRIOT Act the FBI could have searched your house today when you were gone at work and they don't even have to bother letting you know they were there.
They can also force anyone(doctor, library, Internet service providers) to turn over all their records on you and you wouldn't know they had searched any of these things because they can prohibit the recipients of the search order from telling anyone about the search, even when there is no need for secrecy.(which obviously violates the recipients right to free speech)
The FBI could have initiated this whole investigation based solely on something that you posted on this forum. (which obviously violates your right to free speech)
The worst part of the whole thing is that the government is no longer required to show any evidence that you're an "agent of a foreign power," to initiate any of these investigations.
ACLU Website: Surveillance Under the USA PATRIOT Act
CNN: Patriot Act report documents civil rights complaints
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 48
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Madd Max
Group: Members
Posts: 1345
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 11 2004,12:08 am |
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| Quote (Liberal @ Mar. 10 2004,10:48:pm) | | [With the PATRIOT Act the FBI could have searched your house today when you were gone at work and they don't even have to bother letting you know they were there. |
To make the Patriot Act permanent is nothing more than an all out assault on the Civil Liberties of every American in this country. Stop an think for a second here doesn't Liberal Qoute sound like what was going on in the Soviet Union back in the 60's and 70's with the KGB. Now the goverment is doing it to US!
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Heck, if crazy were a pre-existing condition, the GOP wouldn't be able to get insurance. James Carville
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| Post Number: 49
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irisheyes
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 3040
Joined: Oct. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 11 2004,7:37 am |
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| Quote (cpu_slave @ Mar. 10 2004,8:53:pm) | | Saddam could be more compared to Pol-Pot, and the only difference between Cambodia and Iraq is the black gold under the ground. |
Good example cpu_slave. I think Saddam's actions has a lot of similarities with the khmer-rouge (probably mispelled that). What was much more shocking are the things done by his sons, they didn't kill near as many I'm sure, but seemed to commit atrocities purely for the fun of it. The incident that shocked me the most, I think it was Uday and his entourage came upon a wedding. Himself and his bodyguards raped the newlywed bride repeatedly, the husband, obviously in a rage cursed them, and was soon killed for doing so. I'm sure you can name many dictators that have done things as bad as or even worse then that of Saddam, either way, his sons deserved to die, and so does he.
As for the patriot act, its not a question of if it will be used inappropriately, its a question of when. It's designed to be used to violate civil liberties! I've heard people try to explain why we have to do this to protect America. We can't protect America by getting rid of what gives us freedom! Our biggest problem isn't the terrorists, or North Korea. The real axis of evil is right here in our country, and its trying to destroy our way of life by saying their trying to help us!
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You know it's going to be a bad day when you cross thread the cap on the toothpaste.
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| Post Number: 50
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 11 2004,9:56 am |
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From previous post| Quote | | I have some misgivings about the Patriot Act, enacted by Congress with near unanimous acclaim after 9/11. I don't like the way it reads, but on the other hand, it hasn't been used. If it WAS used inappropriately, I'd be against it. |
There is probably nobody as anti-big-government, civil libertarian on this Forum (with the possible exception of Grinning Dragon!) than me. I have misgivings about the Patriot Act--I think it was a knee-jerk, rush-to-be-seen-as-DOING-SOMETHING act, but it WAS passed by huge acclaim in both houses--98-1 in the Senate, 337-79 in the House. Obviously, a lot of liberal legislators signed on. They are now claiming "we didn't know what we were voting on, we didn't have time to read it". If so, this is indicative of a much larger problem--the amount of legislation coming out of Congress is so voluminous that legislators REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON!
Thankfully, there have been no abuses of the system--yet. From CNN Civil Rights Complaints--| Quote | | The inspector general's office said 272 of those complaints came within its jurisdiction, but even many of those complaints "do not raise issues" that call for its investigation. |
It appears that many law-savvy criminals are using the Patriot Act as a tool to force consideration of their cases.
This is yet one more reason that all laws should have "sunset provisions"--automatic expiration times, after which the laws must be reconsidered for merit.
By the way--98-1 in the Senate--with only Senator Russ Feingold dissenting--that would mean Sen. Kerry must have voted FOR the issue--must be another one of his flip-flops! The GOOD NEWS is that it wasn't one of the 64% of the votes he MISSED! 
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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