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| Post Number: 31
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Liberal 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 09 2004,11:21 am |
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With aircraft, we are also dangerously behind the times. The Navy's fleet defense fighter, the F-14 Tomcat, is 30 years old, and being retired. The Vietnam-era E-6 Intruder--used for air strikes, electronic surveillance and countermeasures, and tankers, HAS been retired by the Clinton Administration. Navy pilots are fighting mad--Navy aircraft can't take off with a full load of fuel and weapons, so they have to "hit a tanker" after becoming airborne. With no E-6s (capable of refueling 6 aircraft on a load of fuel), the job goes to the Viking--capable of fueling only 2 1/2 aircraft on a load of fuel. Result--severely restricted flight operations.
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What will we do with our aircraft being "dangerously behind the times" and having "severely restricted flight operations"? This could be really bad if another superpower decides to attack us. We should probably spend a lot of money on defense just to make sure we're safe. We can't be fighting all those state of the art jets all those other countries have with our 25 year old junk.
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Like it or not, we will be in for a HUGE rebuilding effort in the next decade--under ANYBODYs Administration.
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Can't we just keep our military small and quit policing the rest of the world 
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 32
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cpu_slave
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 09 2004,11:42 am |
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Many believe that cwolff has a hang-up about blow jobs. Tell us cwolff, are you simply jealous or just that anal? As for your statement about how I feel about Clinton, I suggest going back and reading some of my earlier posts about politicians. But as I can already see you are not only slow but also lazy so I will sum it up here quickly- All major candidates are owned by special interest and the voting public matters only around election season. (most) All politicians lie, and looking at several posts here I can plainly see that the public outrage over a lie is directly related to which side of the political spectrum one sees themselves a part of. Personally I have seen a running joke throughout this entire administration, that everything that goes wrong is somehow Clintons fault. If it makes you feel better, go ahead and follow along like a good little neo-con, but in all honesty it only shows how truly ignorant you are. As for me, I will try and lay blame where blame is due- and in the case of Iraq I will lay that blame squarely on the current administration because to this day I have seen absolutely no proof that Iraq was a threat to anyone, much less tied in any way to 9/11. Now that the WMD lie is being shown for what it really was, all you bush backers can do is point to Clinton and say things like “blow-job”, “Bill lied about WMD too!” and “the economy was that way when bush got here!”
Jim, I realize the official date of the Soviet Collapse, but you and I both know that it did not happen overnight and in fact actually started the day that Gorbachev was appointed back in ‘85, especially with his early reforms. By the end of Reagan's second term the collapse was anticipated and plans were made then to start downsizing the military. Bush Sr. started implementing this plan of a 25% reduction during his presidency, and Clinton carried on the same policy of downsizing during his term as well. Although Clinton spent only half of what Reagan did on procurement, this was partly because much of the military’s antiquated weaponry had already been replaced during the Reagan buildup, so it was natural that spending decreased. You do realize that most of the military technology used in Afghanistan and Iraq was developed and implemented during Clintons watch, right? Although the Pentagon under Rumsfeld had boosted the defense budget substantially after 9/11, it had not changed the basic standards of military recruitment and retention set during the Clinton years. Some have pushed the Bush administration to increase the numbers in the Army, Marine Corps and Air Force and again last week, Secretary Rumsfeld rejected that call again, saying that the cost of adding more uniformed personnel was not necessary and too expensive. So again, here we have people laying the blame on Clinton for what? Military pay increased, technology was advanced, and all branches of the service were actually streamlined to save taxpayers money. The performance of US troops in Afghanistan and Iraq tell me that the military did not go to hell under Clinton, but actually seemed to come out better then they were during the first gulf war. Like I have stated before, some people seem to be caught up on military personnel numbers, when in fact technology has made a large standing military unnecessary. Tell me, now that defense spending has increased dramatically since 9/11 what difference have you seen in the military that was not there a few years ago?
As for the Guard and Reserve, I think you pretty much covered that in saying that the Reserve is to back up the Regular Troops and the National Guard should be used here at home. The problem comes in where politicians see money, training, and equipment going into the National Guard and the thoughts of ‘seeing some return on investment’ come into play. Sorry boys and girls, you’re now going to have to start earning that Guard and Reserve pay.
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An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
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| Post Number: 33
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 09 2004,12:18 pm |
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| Quote | | though the Pentagon under Rumsfeld had boosted the defense budget substantially after 9/11, it had not changed the basic standards of military recruitment and retention set during the Clinton years. Some have pushed the Bush administration to increase the numbers in the Army, Marine Corps and Air Force and again last week, Secretary Rumsfeld rejected that call again, saying that the cost of adding more uniformed personnel was not necessary and too expensive. |
That's ONE way to increase the military force--gays in the military!(under Clinton)  (rimshot--ba-da-boom--just kidding!)
| Quote | | Jim, I realize the official date of the Soviet Collapse, but you and I both know that it did not happen overnight and in fact actually started the day that Gorbachev was appointed back in ‘85, |
Careful, a statement like that would give credibility to the claim that the actions of Administrations really DO manifest themselves decades later, instead of months!
From Liberal| Quote | | What will we do with our aircraft being "dangerously behind the times" and having "severely restricted flight operations"? This could be really bad if another superpower decides to attack us. We should probably spend a lot of money on defense just to make sure we're safe. We can't be fighting all those state of the art jets all those other countries have with our 25 year old junk. |
Where's that sarcasm smilie? Our military air wings have many missions.
Air superiority. Our front-line aircraft are 25-30 years old. Parts haven't been built for the F-14 for the Navy for 10 years. The F-14 is designed to take out up to 10 targets for fleet defense--something the Super Hornet can't do. We have no good tankers, so we can only launch about half our aircraft from carriers. It takes 10 years to develop a front-line fighter--those aircraft will be 35-40 years old before the next fighters come on line. Meanwhile, the Russians are still making new fighters, and exporting them to other countries (both India and Pakistan have them). Have you ever seen the pictures of the Sukhoi SU-25s in Iraq buried in the sand? http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/sandplanes.asp These are front-line fighters, still current production. The Russians are selling Mig-29s and 31s--the equal or better than our F-15s.
Electronic Intelligence and Control--the KC-135 aircraft are based on the Boeing 707--a jetliner from the late 50s--no U.S. airline has operated them for years. The Navy uses the P-3 Orion--a prop-driven aircraft dating to 1956.(Maybe if we had better intelligence aircraft, the U.S. would have more reliable intelligence on WMDs?)
Ground Attack--The Navy no longer has E-6s. The A-10 Warthog was retired after the FIRST Iraq war, and brought out of mothballs because there is nothing else to do the job. Our F-15 multi-role fighter is 25 years old.
Bombing--The B-52 is 52 years old. The E-6 is gone. The B-1 fleet is too small, and based in Barksdale, Grand Forks, and Rapid City--all U.S. The B-2 fleet is also small, and also U.S. based.
Training--the T-37 is coming up on 50, the T-38 is 42.
Helicopters--The Cobra is 36 years old. The Apache is 25, the Huey pre-dates Vietnam, the Blackhawk is 25, the Chinook and Sea Knight are 42, and the Jolly Green rescue helicopter was used in Vietnam. The Russians and Chinese are WAY ahead of us on helicopters.
Think about it--how old were YOU when these aircraft were new? ONCE AGAIN--WITH AGES ON AIRCRAFT LIKE THESE, THERE'S PLENTY OF BLAME TO GO AROUND!
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 34
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GEOKARJO
Google This!!!
Group: Members
Posts: 7799
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 09 2004,1:32 pm |
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Anyone with loved ones being deployed and do not have access to a computer and internet may use my computers free of charge to stay in contact with their loved ones.
www.web-room.net/cybercafe
All we ask is you bring a picture of your loved one, to be hung on our wall of heros.
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| Post Number: 35
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Wareagle11B
Group: Members
Posts: 1457
Joined: Mar. 2004
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Posted on: Mar. 09 2004,7:13 pm |
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First and Foremost GeoKarjo Thank You very much for your support as I do know you personally it is very kind what you do for those of us that have to do what our government orders us to do.
Second. I have been earning my Guard/Reserve pay for many years Cpu Slave and I am ready,willing, and quite able to do the job that is asked of me. Dare I ask if the same can be said of you? I have stood on the frontlines of the so called Cold War and looked across the border into communist East Germany, I have done what my country has asked of me without question. Once more I am being asked to do this and once more I shall do what is asked. I am not in anyway whining about this though my family and loved ones would rather I stay home and leave this to the new breed of soldiers rather than my old self. It is my duty and responsibility to teach these new soldiers the tricks I have learned over the course of my military career and I shall indeed do my best to bring my fellow soldiers home in the same way they left. IN ONE PIECE!!! I would recommend that whether you like what we are doing or not you at least show your support to the Guard members and the families left behind by volunteering your time to assist them if they need any help. I do not direct that last one at you specifically Cpu. I am an American Fighting Person, I serve in the forces which Guard my country and Our Way of Life. The first words of the soldiers creed and the words upon which I live by when in the uniform of my country be it NG,Reserve, or Active Military. I and those serving alongside me as well as those who have served are a proud lot of men and women and we did it with no regard to the consequence. Cpu you are quite and intelligent person as are the many of you whom I have had the chance to read in this forum. I did not realize that 1 simple question would create quite the conversation it has. Thank you all for the responses and keep the topic flourishing while I am gone. We depart soon for our Active Training and then onward into Afghanistan for the duration. I am proud to do this and will with the lord watching over me return once more to this forum to again start a new topic for all of you to converse/argue over.  Keep all of us in your prayers whether you believe in our purpose or not. Mr Hanson 11B is still Infantry but it is not the only MOS designation I hold but it is the primary. For now all the best to everyone of you. I am outta here for a long vacation in a very hot place.
Wareagle11B signing off.
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I care not what others think of what I do, but I care very much about what I think of what I do! That is character!
Teddy Roosevelt
www.warriorlegacyfoundation.org
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| Post Number: 36
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GEOKARJO
Google This!!!
Group: Members
Posts: 7799
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 09 2004,8:02 pm |
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Thanks for stopping by wareagle11b, May god protect you, and I salute you.
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| Post Number: 37
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,12:04 pm |
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Wareagle 11B--will you be able to get internet access in Afghanistan?
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 38
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cwolff
Group: Members
Posts: 265
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,12:04 pm |
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Cpu_slave, I mention that you are in love with Clinton, and you revert to words such as: anal, ignorant, and good little neo-con. I do believe that your leftist liberal colors are starting to show through, and maybe you are starting to get an attitude with me.
Then you make the statement:| Quote | | because to this day I have seen absolutely no proof that Iraq was a threat to anyone |
Evidently Cpu_slave has not yet heard about the millions of murdered Iraqs' by the dictator Sadam who was indeed a major threat to his own people.
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| Post Number: 39
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cpu_slave
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,4:41 pm |
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| Quote | | I do believe that your leftist liberal colors are starting to show through, and maybe you are starting to get an attitude with me. |
I guess to you anyone left of Rush and Ann are ‘leftist liberals’ right cwolff? As for the attitude, ignorant people tend to bother me so make your own conclusions from that, as you tend to do it anyhow.
| Quote | | Evidently Cpu_slave has not yet heard about the millions of murdered Iraqs' by the dictator Sadam who was indeed a major threat to his own people |
Are we back to this old argument again? Threat to his own people and threat to other nations are two completely different subjects. If the citizens felt so threatened by Saddam, then why was there no revolution? Couldn’t these people get their own hands dirty? Oh, that’s right, they tried that once when Bush Sr. said he would help them, and that help never came. Actually, this is where most of your “millions of murdered Iraqis” came from, so one could also argue that these dead Iraqis could also be attributed to Bush Sr. Wrap your mind around that for awhile.
If we are going to start invading, occupying, and nation building every country who has a ruthless dictator then we are going to be busy for a very, very long time. Besides, the current administration kept trying to tell the UN as well as the American public that Iraq was a threat to other nations, even the world, because of its (Iraq) possession of WMD. Iraq had no WMD, therefore Iraq was no threat to anyone. Saddam may have been a threat to people inside the Iraq border, but since when did that alone constitute reason enough for war?
Wareagle, I wish you and every other soldier going to overseas the best of luck and hope that you all come back home safe, alive, and intact.
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An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
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| Post Number: 40
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 10 2004,5:44 pm |
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CPU_slave--at the risk of pointing out the obvious.
Are we back to this old argument again? Threat to his own people and threat to other nations are two completely different subjects. Hitler, as it turn out, was a threat TO HIS OWN PEOPLE, AS WELL AS THE REST OF THE "NEIGHBORHOOD". Ask the European Jews of WW II If the citizens felt so threatened by Saddam, then why was there no revolution? Ask the European Jews the same question. Couldn’t these people get their own hands dirty? Oh, that’s right, they tried that once when Bush Sr.Neville Chamberlain, PM of Great Britain, and one of the all-time "appeasers" did the same thing.said he would help them, and that help never came. Actually, this is where most of your “millions of murdered Iraqis” came from, six million Jewsso one could also argue that these dead Iraqis could also be attributed to Bush Sr. Bush Sr. "cut and ran" under pressure--so did Clinton in Somalia, and Kennedy at the Bay of Pigs. No WONDER people in the world don't trust us! Now, I see by a poll that 4 in 10 Democrats think we should just pull out, and 3 in 10 think we should pull SOME troops out. History repeated--NOBODY will trust us to do what we say we will do. Wrap your mind around that for awhile.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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