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| Post Number: 71
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Madd Max 
Group: Members
Posts: 1345
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 15 2004,2:09 pm |
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I agree with you 100% on this one Jim. It is a local tax question that local people will pay or not pay it is OUR decision to may Not St.Paul's
One comment I would like to make is In Washington DC at the Capital we hear Representatives and Senators fighting for States rights that the Federal Government has to much power over the states. Here we have a case where the local people are saying that the state has to much power over us and we should have the right to make our own local decision not the state telling us what we can or cannot do. I just think it is kind of interesting.
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Heck, if crazy were a pre-existing condition, the GOP wouldn't be able to get insurance. James Carville
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| Post Number: 72
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farouk
Group: Members
Posts: 157
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Mar. 15 2004,5:02 pm |
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In most cases, it is our right to agree to tax ourselves, or agree not to tax ourselves. That is true with most taxes except sales taxes. Sales taxes don't always tax those who would benefit from the tax, infact the benefit of a local sales taxes is that many of those who fund the tax receive little benefit from the tax. It is a good way to shift the burden for what you want onto the backs of others. So I guess I would disagree with some of you and state that St. Paul does need to have a say in this!
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| Post Number: 73
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farouk
Group: Members
Posts: 157
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Mar. 15 2004,5:07 pm |
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In most cases, it is our right to agree to tax ourselves, or agree not to tax ourselves. That is true with most taxes except sales taxes. Sales taxes don't always tax those who would benefit from the tax, infact the benefit of a local sales taxes is that many of those who fund the tax receive little benefit from the tax. It is a good way to shift the burden for what you want onto the backs of others. So I guess I would disagree with some of you and state that St. Paul does need to have a say in this!
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| Post Number: 74
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Nose for News
Group: Members
Posts: 431
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Mar. 15 2004,5:39 pm |
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ARGUMENTS AGAINST A GENERAL SALES TAX
1. Equity considerations are unfavorable:
(a) tax is ordinarily regressive with respect to income.
(b) not only fails to take account of personal obligations but actually strikes larger families having less margin for saving more severely.
© takes no account of the difference between earned and unearned incomes.
(d) places no unusual burden on windfalls or monopoly profits.
2. Any attempt to reduce the disadvantage indicated on grounds of equity by such devices as the taxation of services and rentals adds greatly to the administrative task.
3. The development of an administrative machine and a set of regulations is so extensive a task that it precludes the use of a general sales tax as a temporary expedient.
4. Once a tax like this has been set in operation and is producing large revenues, it will be very difficult to repeal. This is indicated by European experience during the 20's add 30's.
5. The strain on administration during the early years tends to prevent heavy rates and large collections.
6. The development of a system of rationing and price fixing will lead logically to the reduction in the sales tax base and at the same time will increase the difficulties of administration.
7. The tax offers no assistance in the transfer of resources to war time production unless differential rates are established. The letter would produce a sharp increase in the administrative load.
8. The tax eight very well serve as an excuse for wage increases since it has a tendency to raise the cost of living.
9. The "painlessness" of a tax of this sort as compared with a collection at source income tax is dubious.
10. The tax base cannot be kept simple without some sacrifice in the form of multiple taxation and pyramiding.
11. The tax base is pretty certain to be complex. Gross receipts is itself difficult to define and must be corrected substantially if a tax base having undesirable economic consequences is to be avoided.
12. The cost of collection plus payment is apt to be high.
13. The consequence of 12 is a demand for the reimbursement of the firms individual which in effect act as collecting agents.
14. The small unit presents an unusually difficult problem. The application of the tax to such units is difficult and their exemption is inexpedient from the point of view of equity as well as economic effects.
15. Although the yield is relatively predictable and elastic, similar virtues adhere to a broadly based collection at source tax on individual incomes.
16. Unless a special scheme such as the suggested coupon plan or the free distribution of an iron ration is installed it will be impossible to arrange adequate protection of the minimum standard of life without adding greatly to the complexity of administration.
17. The shift of the tax to the consumer is less certain than is commonly assumed. Hence the results are less predictable than in the case of a levy falling directly on personal net income.
18. When the tax fails to shift, discriminatory taxation of business enterprise results and the weight of the tax is apt to fall on smaller firms with unusual force. Haig and Shoup indicate these firms are less apt to shift the tax. The result is the introduction of a certain regressivity into the treatment accorded the various business enterprises which are in effect operating as collecting units under the tax.
19. While the tax does reach some of the income which is not taxed under a levy on personal income, it is unlikely that this is a desirable consequence if the income tax is applied to a broad base.
20. The enactment of a general sales tax does not really mean we are tapping a new source of income but rather that we are going at consumer income by a circuitous route. Why not tax incomes directly with a collection at source income tax?
Date 5 February 1942
Author unknown
Title Arguments against a general sales tax
Description Internal staff memo, Division of Tax Research, U.S. Treasury Department
Location Box 1; General Sales Taxes; Records of the Office of Tax Analysis/Division of Tax Research; General Records of the Department of the Treasury, Record Group 56; National Archives, College Park, MD.
Treasury Department, Division of Tax Research
February 12, 1942
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DISCLAIMER
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Nose for News Is Pleased To Announce That We Have Absolutely No Affiliation Whatsoever With The Albert Lea Tribune Or Its Parent, Boone Publishing.
Like Other Minnesota/Iowa Residents, We Simply Endure Them.
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| Post Number: 75
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 16 2004,3:27 pm |
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| Quote | | The resolution was described as a "request for county support of the proposed sales-tax increase according to the agenda. "I believe it is not the county board's place to endorse a tax increase or decrease in any city in the county," Belshan said. |
Does anyone else see the IRONY here?
This is the same County Board that voted 3-2 to DENY the public to vote on the largest expenditure in the history of the County--YET--they have indicated a willingness to SUPPORT a referendum (vote) on a sales tax by another governmental body over which they have no interest!  --  (Four-to-one!)
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 76
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MrTarzan
Group: Members
Posts: 564
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Mar. 16 2004,10:07 pm |
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Yes, I see it. DO DO DO DO DO DO DO DO (Twilight Zone theme)
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Be not simply good, be good for something-Henry David Thoreau
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| Post Number: 77
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repdan
justdan
Group: Members
Posts: 649
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 18 2004,4:37 pm |
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Farouk...
You bring up the exporting of the tax to someone else. That also happens in property taxes, the industrial taxes that Lou Rich pays or Mrs Gerry's pays in for the most part passed on to people outside of our area.
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carpe ductem.....remember we're all in this together..I'm pull'n for you.
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| Post Number: 78
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farouk
Group: Members
Posts: 157
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Mar. 19 2004,10:34 am |
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repdan...
Property tax has a county, school and city component. Explain how that gets passed on to people outside of our area. What other industrial taxes are you talking about? Are you talking about income taxes? I think I was talking about a city Sales tax, like the ones in Mankato and Rochester, you know were I travel to those communities to make purchases, and for that right they assess a tax on me.
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| Post Number: 79
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repdan
justdan
Group: Members
Posts: 649
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 20 2004,7:23 pm |
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Industrial property tax is for the most part exported. The taxes are passed on to the customer and in the case of industrial taxes most of the customers are from outside of the area. Just as when you shop in Rochester the local option sales tax is exported or not paid by someone who lives in Rochester.
Depending on the community, the amount of a local option sales tax which is exported can vary. The tax in Rochester would be exported more than one here would.
When you say that the property tax has a county, school, and city componet you describe who levies the tax and spends it not who pays the tax after the shifts.
Here is a link you may want to check out, the Dept of Revenue puts out a Tax Incidence Study every 2 years that looks at who really pays taxes.
http://www.taxes.state.mn.us/taxes....e.shtml
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carpe ductem.....remember we're all in this together..I'm pull'n for you.
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| Post Number: 80
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Mar. 20 2004,11:18 pm |
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Karen Trows article in the Tribune is nothing but a bunch of lies and baseless assumptions.
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A majority of the people in Albert Lea appear ready to vote for a "local option sales tax" if it were to go toward cleaning up our lakes.
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We know this isn't true because we paid for a study and only about 48 percent of the respondents said they liked the idea of a half-percent sales-tax increase to clean up the lake. Since when is 48% the majority?
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Albert Lea is the not-so-proud beneficiary of local government aid funds from the state that represents more than 50 percent of our municipal budget. To add insult to injury, these funds were recently cut by several hundred thousand dollars at a time when we could least afford it.
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The actual amount of LGA we lost was $1,046,547 which dropped our total LGA to $5,358,383 which isn't even close to 50% of our budget it's more like a third of our budget. And what does she mean by "at a time that we could least afford it", when can you ever afford LGA cuts?
The remainder of her article was basically assumptions that supported her views like "Believe me, the Iowans are not too happy with the quality of water that we are sending their way." How would she know this and why would anyone believe her when she can't even get the basic facts straight.
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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