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| Post Number: 1
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irisheyes 
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 3040
Joined: Oct. 2003
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Posted on: Nov. 03 2003,11:09 pm |
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We're still bombarded with information on news, radio, & T.V. about those for & against rebuilding Iraq (not to mention those against the war to begin with).
I've seen opinions in other topics about it, thought it's about time it has it's own.
So, what does everyone think of what Bush is doing now?
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You know it's going to be a bad day when you cross thread the cap on the toothpaste.
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| Post Number: 2
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Nov. 03 2003,11:51 pm |
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I think Bush is a pathalogical lier, we went to war based on threats that werent real, Bush new it, didnt care. Now as American soldiers die for Iraqis that dont even want us there, Bush and Cheaneys Buddies at Halliburton are making billions at the expense of tax payers, no biding process, just got it given to them. Guess who Cheaney will go back to work for after this administration gets its lying @ss booted out of office next election. Then, we give the Iraqis 87 billion of tax payers money, not loan, give, this after Bush told us that Iraqi oil would be able to pay for the reconstruction, another lie. Look at the mess we are in now, Saddam said this is what they would do, draw us into the cities, then start fighting in the streets, he has out smarted our idiot president, and American lives are being lost because of it. This was a political war plain and simple, Bush's number one adviser even admitted it, they have a floppy disk of Carl Rove telling Bush, "if the election is about the economy, we lose, if we make it about war, we win." Bush should be shot for treason and the murder of every American soldier that has died so he can get reelected. As long as we have American soldiers in Iraq, they will be nothing but targets, but Bush has created such a mess now that it will be almost impossible to leave. I'm 41 years old, in my opinion, I wont see all American soldiers out of Iraq in my life time, and the 87 billion we just approved, is going to be a drop in the bucket, not to mention hundreds more Americans killed. All so some piece of $hit president can get his @ss reelected. Dont misunderstand my rage, I love America, I support the troops, but I hate our government and everything it stands for.
Ok, I'm done, I'll just wait to get my @ss ripped by you conservitives that put politics above your country and American lives.
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 3
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minnow
Group: Members
Posts: 2243
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Nov. 04 2003,12:33 am |
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Ya...I don't like being lied to.
I can't imagine FDR selling us with lies like a used car salesmen to intice us into a war. 87 billion was just the new amount, we've already spent at least that.
Just think...instead of war in Iraq...we could have spent the money by giving every single family in the USA a brand spanking new 240 HP Honda Accord Coupe, 8 speed, burlwood dash, all ground effects and spoiler plus upgraded wheels!
I can see that guy in the Hemi commercial saying, "sweet"... 
And that's just so far! We'll spend much, much more...at least 160 billion more!
9/11 made irrational boobs out of us...
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| Post Number: 4
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Angel
Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: Sep. 2003
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Posted on: Nov. 04 2003,1:03 am |
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I don't like how Bush has handled anything from the begining.
1 How he told everyone we would go to war alone
2 His lack of diplomicy(if he knows what it is)
But I believe Saddam needed to be removed. He tortured and murdered. He lied and deceived. He is an evil person who was a threat to everyone.
People are upset because we still have troops there and no timeline for leaving. How many people actually believed we could just remove Saddam and then leave? I never thought that. These people don't trust the USA. They need to see us rebuilding the damage we made and the damage Saddam made. There are extremists that will never stop trying to hurt the USA. It doesn't matter what we do. But if we don't start building a better relationship with people in the mid-east there will be even more terrorists.
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| Post Number: 5
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Nov. 04 2003,8:15 am |
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Angel, I understand your point. But nothing we do in Iraq will improve our relations with the Arab world. We arent playing fair in Isreal and Palestine. Again, purely for political reasons, Bush doesnt want to upset Jewish voters. This administration gets up every morning wondering what it can do or say to make it self look better than it really is, its not about what is better for the county, its what is better for Bush and the Republican party. And you are right Angel, Saddam did need to be removed, not because of WMD or nuclear warheads, because we now know we were lied to about that also, but because of his human rights violations. He was never a threat to us, not till we sent our troops into down town Baghdad. He should have been removed by the other Arab countries also, if they didnt want to do it, then they would have to live with him. If we give Bush another 4 years, I promise you this wont be the last county in the middle east or Asia that we invade. Most of the rest of the world hates us because of our arragance, I have to say I cant blame them one bit. And dont even mention all the UN resolutions Saddam violated, if thats the reason for going in, then I can assume we are going to take Isreal and its murdering, criminal government out next. Who by the way in my opinion is the biggest threat to world piece right now, that is Isreal, and the U.S.
Edited by hoosier on Nov. 04 2003,8:18 am
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 6
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shaker
Group: Members
Posts: 435
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Nov. 04 2003,8:19 am |
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Can anyone say---VIET NAM 
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| Post Number: 7
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cpu_slave
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Nov. 04 2003,8:34 am |
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Very Interesting, an Iraq discussion with it's own thread...I apologize for the length of this post already!
Anyhow, those of you who remember the Trib forum might also remember that I was personally against this war from the beginning. I seen no evidence, and when I tried to press for proof of these WMD's inevitably the subject was changed to "you're un-patriotic if you disagree with Bush". I seen how the citizens of the US were played by the current administration, first it was 'we are going after bin-laden at all costs' then all the sudden we took a sharp right turn and then it became about 'Saddam and the WMD's'. Excuse me, but what happened to bin-laden? How did we go from a war on terror and those responsible for 9-11 to Saddam and Iraq? I am going to just list some of the responses I have seen come up and the replies to those just to get everyone up to speed here.
Misconception:
Iraq and Saddam were behind 9-11.
Fact:
Al-Queda and bin-laden were behind 9-11, with financial aid from Saudi Arabia. To this day there has not been one single shred of evidence suggesting Saddam or Iraq was in any way involved in 9-11. If you disagree, feel free to provide proof to the contrary.
Misconception:
Saddam had WMD's.
Fact:
The US has been there 8 months now and have not found a single weapon despite the fact that there are hundreds of soldiers assigned the single task of finding them. It is not like we have not been looking people, so I do not buy the argument that 'we just have not found them yet'. Before the war the US was waving around all this 'evidence' and even telling the UN inspectors where to look and they could not find anything. Instead of looking at the possibility that maybe Saddam had nothing, the administration simply stated that Saddam was simply hiding them and we need to invade. Again, if you disagree and feel there are WMD's there somewhere, feel free to provide proof.
Misconception:
Saddam working on Nuclear program:
Fact:
Same as the WMD's, not a single piece of evidence to support this claim. Remember the "intelligence" about the 'enriched fuel rods from Africa'? Even before the speech the intelligence community dismissed that as being non-credible, but somehow it still ended up there, scarring a public into buying into the war. Honestly, there was no talk of 'regime change for the sake of the Iraqi's' before the war, only WMD's. Now that we are in there, it's funny that the primary objectives for initially going in changed. I checked archived articles of news before the war, and there was little to no mention of how Saddam treated his citizens and how that alone was justification for war. It was simply WMD's, WMD's, the French are stupid, WMD's, WMD's, etc.
Misconception:
Saddam supports terrorists:
Fact:
Saddam had allowed exiled terrorists to live in Iraq, as long as there was no trouble. Along the same lines, Portugal took in Nazi's we booted out of the US so would that make them a supporter of Nazism? If so, I would enjoy an explanation on how anyone would see it differently.
Misconception:
Iraqi oil will pay for all this (as hoosier pointed out)
Fact:
Intelligence gathered in the few years before the war suggested that the Iraqi oil production system was suffering heavily from the UN sanctions. Just take a look at the output levels from '91-'01, a steady decline year after year. We knew the whole thing would need to be rebuilt, and that is where Halliburton came in. Seems to me that contract was awarded before the first US solider set foot in Iraq. Now we have an administration who wants to 'give' $87 billion (to start) to Iraq so the nation will not be straddled with debt yet it's just fine that the US taxpayers responsible for actually coming up with all this money will?
Misconception:
If you are anti-war then you are anti-solider:
Fact:
A favorite 'patriotic' line repeated before the start of the war. Almost like saying if you are a vegetarian than you hate cows. Stupid logic, plain and simple.
This is just a start, to add ammunition to the ensuing flame war so to speak. I will add more if it does not come out on it's own in this discussion.
Now I will address some specific responses:
| Quote | | Dont misunderstand my rage, I love America, I support the troops, but I hate our government and everything it stands for. |
Hoosier, calm down there. I also love America, I support the troops, but I am simply afraid of our out of control government and what our current administration stands for. America is a beautiful idea, so don't be so quick to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' so to speak. Hate simply breeds hate, but fear may bring about understanding and ideas for change so we may learn to overcome.
| Quote | | We'll spend much, much more...at least 160 billion more! |
I have to agree with you on this one minnow, but by the time this is all said and done (hopefully within my lifetime) add another 0 on the right of that number.
| Quote | | But I believe Saddam needed to be removed. He tortured and murdered. He lied and deceived. He is an evil person who was a threat to everyone. |
First off, can you show us how Saddam was a threat to everyone, and more specifically the US? Sure, I will agree he was inhumane to his own population, but who has he endangered outside his borders in the past decade? There are plenty of countries on the 'coalition of the willing' list with leaders who are accused of the same atrocities against their own peoples, so are you saying it's "OK" as long as they are on our side?
| Quote | | People are upset because we still have troops there and no timeline for leaving. |
More specifically, there was no 'plan' for reconstruction at all. Even the administration admits this. Unless help comes from the UN, the US has committed a large number of troops there for a long, long time.
| Quote | | There are extremists that will never stop trying to hurt the USA. It doesn't matter what we do. |
Exactly. It does not matter if we force a regime change in Iraq, people will sill hate the US, only now it will possibly be more people since the US is now seen as an aggressor to people in the region and it just fuels groups like al-queda to keep going. Remember al-queda, the group actually responsible for 9-11 and the ensuing mess? Since the US invaded Iraq, membership in these terror groups is reaching all time highs. Remember that fact.
| Quote | | But if we don't start building a better relationship with people in the mid-east there will be even more terrorists. |
Build a better relationship through war, how peaceful. This war is leading to more terrorists, not fewer.
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An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
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| Post Number: 8
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Nov. 04 2003,8:38 am |
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Amen Shaker, but Viet Nam times ten. Iraq is about nothing but stopping socalled terrorism, terrorism that we bring down on our selves by being the worlds self appointed police. You go around your neighborhood picking on all the weaker people, act like you own the place, samething will happen, a bunch of em will band together and kick your @ss. Then, if you are stupid like the U.S. leadership, you will go out and pick on even more people in retaliation. It never ends. The first gulf war was justified, Saddam invaded another country, we were asked by the Arab world to help, Arabs were behind it and involved. This one is about nothing more than Bush getting another 4 years in the White House, and American boys have gave their lives so he can do it. The lies arent over yet, just wait, it will only get worse, more young American lives will be wasted, but hey, what the hell, the Republicans will keep the White House, thats what its all about.
cpu_slave, nice post. Understand, America and our government to me is two totally seperate things, America is the land, the people, you and me. Our government is another thing all together, I can be the most patriotic person in this land and still despise what our government stands for.
But anyway, you hit the nail on the head with your post. You mentioned the S. Africa nuclear story, dont forget to add that someone from this administration revealed the guys CIA wife to Robert Novak in retaliation for him not agreeing with Bush on this. They even asked others in the news media to reveal it and they all refused, except ultra conservative Robert Novak, you cant get more republican than Novak.
Edited by hoosier on Nov. 04 2003,8:48 am
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 9
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minnow
Group: Members
Posts: 2243
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Nov. 04 2003,10:18 am |
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I've told this story from day 1 and it goes a little somedin like dis...
It's like we woke up one morning and found our girlfriend crying and upset because someone had smashed out her car windshield over night while you both were sleeping.
So you grab your baseball bat and head out into the nieghborhood looking for the culprits....then when you can't find them, you decide to take it out someone who dissed you 13 years ago, so it appears to your girlfriend like you're doing something about it.
It's just ridiculous...
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| Post Number: 10
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GEOKARJO
Google This!!!
Group: Members
Posts: 7799
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Nov. 04 2003,12:45 pm |
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My son put his life in jepordy in that war just as many other american sons, if anything support our troops whether it is right, or whether you believe it is wrong. I am a vietnam vet you want a better reason remember my war.
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