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Topic: Obama wants Muslims to Fight it Out, Not the U.S.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 81
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2014,1:52 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

^^ And gawd forbid you lose a soccer match...

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2014,2:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Common Citizen @ Sep. 30 2014,11:09 am)
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Under control?  If you consider genocide a means of controlling the populace, then I agree.  What a great leader...pfft...

Yet the US government looked the other way when Saddam used chemical weapons, and even helped him acquire chemical and biological agents, and even did their best to stop any UN investigation when Iran went to the UN telling them Iraq was using chemical weapons....until he wasn't useful any more.
And I'm in no way defending anything Saddam did, but if we're going to bring up genocide, how many hundreds of thousands more people did the sanctions kill? Sanctions that were deliberately planned in advance knowing full well how devastating it would be to innocent civilians by destroying their water/sewer treatment programs. Remember the UN statistics saying that in just five years half a million children had died due to sanctions?

Who knows what things would be like in that area if the US wouldn't have constantly been furthering their own interests. And every other part of the world this exceptional and indispensable country sticks it's greedy little mitts into.

If we didn't have so many monstrous weapons the rest of the world would have stomped us to pieces years ago.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2014,7:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You're not actually blaming the U.S. for the actions of the Sadaam regime against their own people?  Don't be a hater.  

This is where we split ways.  No matter how upset you are with the government of the country you are a citizen of, I would place the blame of any collateral damage squarely on the shoulders of the Iraq leaders and the decisions they made knowing full well what the risks were to them and the people they ruled over with an iron fist.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2014,9:20 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Common Citizen @ Oct. 01 2014,7:00 am)
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You're not actually blaming the U.S. for the actions of the Sadaam regime against their own people?  Don't be a hater.  

This is where we split ways.  No matter how upset you are with the government of the country you are a citizen of, I would place the blame of any collateral damage squarely on the shoulders of the Iraq leaders and the decisions they made knowing full well what the risks were to them and the people they ruled over with an iron fist.

What I'm trying to say is that, even though the US knew Saddam was using chemical weapons (after helping him acquire them) they still kept helping him and considered him an ally. Congress even tried imposing sanctions against Iraq a few times. One was called Prevention of Genocide act of 1988, after a reported big gassing, try to find out what happened with that. Saddam's use of chemicals wasn't a problem until he invaded Kuwait. Before that, everything he did was a non-issue, no matter what he did.

How are we the good guys, and Saddam the bad guy, if we were helping him the whole time?

I don't think Saddam worried about collateral damage for anything since he had gotten a free pass on so many horrible things after becoming buddies with the US.

And what we did to the infrastructure of Iraq breaks pretty much every single International Treaty there is.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2014,10:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Rosalind_Swenson @ Oct. 01 2014,9:20 am)
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What I'm trying to say is that, even though the US knew Saddam was using chemical weapons (after helping him acquire them) they still kept helping him and considered him an ally.

They were only allies to one extent.  The United States aligned with Iraq and backed Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war because of the anti American revolution in Iran in '79.

Right or wrong, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" fit this one, Roz.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2014,10:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(MADDOG @ Oct. 01 2014,10:05 am)
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(Rosalind_Swenson @ Oct. 01 2014,9:20 am)
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What I'm trying to say is that, even though the US knew Saddam was using chemical weapons (after helping him acquire them) they still kept helping him and considered him an ally.

They were only allies to one extent.  The United States aligned with Iraq and backed Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war because of the anti American revolution in Iran in '79.

Right or wrong, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" fit this one, Roz.

They still looked the other way when he was using chemical weapons that they helped him acquire in the first place. Then later bring up the same chemical attacks they condoned the first time around as a pretext for attacking Iraq.
Think the anti American revolution in Iran would have happened in the first place if America hadn't meddled in Iran's affairs? If America hadn't ousted the elected Prime Minister who decided to make his country better by taking control of the country's own oil instead of letting western countries profit  while Iranian citizens suffered?

Read some things historian William Blum has written.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2014,10:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There is a reason that global polls keep pointing to the US being the biggest threat to world peace, by an overwhelming majority to any other country.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2014,11:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Regardless of what they say on the conspiracy sites we didn't supply him with the chemical weapons.


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The know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained by Saddam's regime from foreign sources.[24] Most precursors for chemical weapons production came from Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and West Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics, sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. Singapore-based firm Kim Al-Khaleej, affiliated to the United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[25] Dieter Backfisch, managing director of West German company Karl Kolb GmbH, was quoted by saying in 1989 that "for people in Germany poison gas is something quite terrible, but this does not worry customers abroad."[24]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack#Chemical_attack



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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2014,1:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Liberal @ Oct. 01 2014,11:51 am)
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Regardless of what they say on the conspiracy sites we didn't supply him with the chemical weapons.


QUOTE


The know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained by Saddam's regime from foreign sources.[24] Most precursors for chemical weapons production came from Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and West Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics, sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. Singapore-based firm Kim Al-Khaleej, affiliated to the United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[25] Dieter Backfisch, managing director of West German company Karl Kolb GmbH, was quoted by saying in 1989 that "for people in Germany poison gas is something quite terrible, but this does not worry customers abroad."[24]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack#Chemical_attack


Links about this subject were already put into the forum a year or two ago, but here is another:


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The newspaper says a review of a large tranche of government documents reveals that the administrations of President Reagan and the first President Bush both authorized providing Iraq with intelligence and logistical support, and okayed the sale of dual use items — those with military and civilian applications — that included chemicals and germs, even anthrax and bubonic plague.
...

Congressional investigations after the Gulf War revealed that the Commerce Department had licensed sales of biological agents, including anthrax, and insecticides, which could be used in chemical weapons, to Iraq.

When Iraq used chemical weapons against the Kurds in 1987, there was anger in Congress and the White House. But a memo in 1988 from Assistant Secretary of State Richard W. Murphy stated that "The U.S.-Iraqi relationship is … important to our long-term political and economic objectives."

"We believe that economic sanctions will be useless or counterproductive to influence the Iraqis," the Post quoted the memo as saying.


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-and-iraq-go-way-back/


And the US also helped by trying to thwarting investigations  and resolutions:

QUOTE
Iran had submitted a draft resolution asking the U.N. to condemn Iraq's chemical weapons use. The U.S. delegate to the U.N. was instructed to lobby friendly delegations in order to obtain a general motion of "no decision" on the resolution. If this was not achievable, the U.S. delegate was to abstain on the issue. Iraq's ambassador met with the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Jeane Kirkpatrick, and asked for "restraint" in responding to the issue - as did the representatives of both France and Britain.


http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

But this information was also put into the forum a year or two ago.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2014,1:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

I can quote wikipedia info too. But I'm sure your wikipedia choices are much more reliable than mine.

QUOTE
[T]he United States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat... The CIA, including both CIA Director Casey and Deputy Director Gates, knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to Iraq. My notes, memoranda and other documents in my NSC files show or tend to show that the CIA knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, munitions and vehicles to Iraq.

The full extent of these covert transfers is not yet known. Teicher's files on the subject are held securely at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library and many other Reagan Era documents that could help shine new light on the subject remain classified. Teicher declined to discuss details of the affidavit with the Washington Post shortly before the 2003 invasion of Iraq.[17]

About two of every seven licenses for the export of "dual use" technology items approved between 1985 and 1990 by the U.S. Department of Commerce "went either directly to the Iraqi armed forces, to Iraqi end-users engaged in weapons production, or to Iraqi enterprises suspected of diverting technology" to weapons of mass destruction, according to an investigation by House Banking Committee Chairman Henry B. Gonzalez. Confidential Commerce Department files also reveal that the Reagan and Bush administrations approved at least 80 direct exports to the Iraqi military. These included computers, communications equipment, aircraft navigation and radar equipment



On February 9, 1994, Senator Riegle delivered a report -commonly known at the Riegle Report- in which it was stated that "pathogenic (meaning 'disease producing'), toxigenic (meaning 'poisonous'), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction."[29]

The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Bacillus anthracis) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding "It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."[30]

Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that authored the aforementioned Riegle Report, said:

U.N. inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs. ... The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 separate agents "with biological warfare significance," according to Riegle's investigators.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...raq_war


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