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Question: Are we in a Recession? :: Total Votes:66
Poll choices Votes Statistics
Yes 38  [57.58%]
No 21  [31.82%]
maybe 4  [6.06%]
i don't know 3  [4.55%]
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Topic: Are we in a Recession?, Your opinion, please?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 81
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2007,8:25 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

^Will Rogers once said "invest in inflation, it's the only thing that's going up" and that's a sound principle...

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 Post Number: 82
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2007,11:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I haven't read this thread in a while.

QUOTE
Last summer, CenterPoint reported that about a third of its customers -- about 208,000 businesses and households -- owed money after the heating season.
Jim--
QUOTE
Gee, Wally, d'ya 'spose that might have somthin' to do with the fact that utilities can't shut off the gas in Minnesota in the winter time?  :sarcasm:   Not much incentive to pay the utility bill, when you know that they can't do anything about it.


Katlade and Expatriate somehow interpret that as my saying that is a "free lunch". :dunno:   I never said that--how could it be a "free lunch" if I highlighted the phrase "still owed money AFTER the heating season"?  If you OWE something, it isn't free.

As I pointed out, maybe the fact that 208,000 households STILL OWED MONEY after the heating season had more to do with the no-cutoff for residences than it did with a "recession".  It would be interesting to see what the percentage of BUSINESSES (that are not subject to "no cutoff") have back payments due.

Not advocating for getting rid of "no-cutoff" laws--just pointing out that the anecdote of people owing money on heating bills is hardly an indicator of a coming recession.


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 Post Number: 83
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2007,12:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

^What you're implying in your post is that the hundreds of thousands people on Minnesota's utility cutoff lists are just cheating the system! While there are cheats in every sector of society the large numbers here clearly show a financial hardship in the State's population.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2007,1:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
What you're implying in your post is that the hundreds of thousands people on Minnesota's utility cutoff lists are just cheating the system!


Where do you come up with an interpretation like that? :dunno:

I didn't say it--the article used the word OWE (which I highlighted)
QUOTE
Last summer, CenterPoint reported that about a third of its customers -- about 208,000 businesses and households -- owed money after the heating season.



QUOTE
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This owe       (&#333;)  Pronunciation Key  
v.   owed, ow·ing, owes

v.   tr.

To be indebted to the amount of: He owes me five dollars.
To have a moral obligation to render or offer: I owe them an apology.
To be in debt to: We owe the plumber for services rendered.
To be indebted or obliged for: owed their riches to oil; owes her good health to diet and exercise.
To bear (a certain feeling) toward a person or persons: You seem to owe your neighbors a grudge.
Archaic To have as a possession; own.

v.   intr.
To be in debt: She still owes for the car.  


To OWE is a continued obligation.  Do you see anything in the definition about "cheating the system"?  Neither I nor the author of the article implied that anybody was "cheating the system."

But then, for people that can't come up with the meaning of a two-letter word ("It depends on what the meaning of IS-is") defining a THREE-LETTER WORD has to be a real problem. :p  :sarcasm:


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 Post Number: 85
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2007,5:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've got to go with Jim on this one.  You wonder how many people, knowing the heat cannot be turned off, might delay in making their payment.  I don't think that is a very good indication of whether or not we are in a recession.

Here's one that might:

Target announced that same store increases (stores open at least one year) will average -1 to +1 % for the month of December.

If the rest of the retailing industry follows suit, it would not bode well for consumer spending, especially for the Christmas season.

In Las Vegas, I read that 1 of every 152 households is in foreclosure, and that the number is growing every month.  California is close behind.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2007,12:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So, those are over priced spec homes which need to come down in price and Amazon had the best Christmas ever. Retailing is just going to the web. The dollar is chasing value.

We aren't in a recession, we're in an inflation. Gas, food, taxes, health care, college and other factors make this an inflationary period.


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 Post Number: 87
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2007,12:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE

Inventing The "Clinton Recession"  

The CEA is trying to alter the start date in a way that benefits Bush. `Tain't fair


No one should be surprised when economic or budget forecasts coming out of Washington are influenced by politics, especially during an election year. But when economic history is rewritten -- with political consequences -- that's going too far. President George W. Bush's Council of Economic Advisers, chaired by Harvard economist N. Gregory Mankiw, is trying to get away with exactly such revisionist history. The CEA's Economic Report of the President, released Feb. 9, unilaterally changed the start date of the last recession to benefit Bush's reelection bid. Instead of using the accepted start date of March, 2001, the CEA announced that the recession really started in the fourth quarter of 2000 -- a shift that would make it much more credible for the Bush Administration to term it the "Clinton Recession." In a subsequent press conference, Mankiw said that the CEA had looked at the available data and "made the call."

This simple statement masks an attack on one of the few remaining bastions of economic neutrality. For almost 75 years, the start and end dates of recessions have been set by the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER), a private nonpartisan research group based in Cambridge, Mass.

While there have been complaints over the years, this arrangement has been accepted by economists, government agencies, and politicians -- until now. "For the first time, the federal government is intervening in the process," says Robert Hall, an economist at Stanford University and the conservative Hoover Institution who since 1978 has chaired the NBER panel of seven prominent economists who make the actual decision. The NBER's decisions have been dragged into the political arena before, but without impact. In the early 1980s, the Reagan Administration tried, unsuccessfully, to convince the NBER to combine the 1980 and 1981-82 recessions into a single downturn that could be called the "Carter Recession." During the '92 election season, the first Bush Administration kept hoping that the NBER would announce that the recession of 1990-91 was over -- a statement that didn't come until December, 1992.

To be fair, even if the latest recession did begin after Bush took office in January, 2001, no one can say he caused it. And Mankiw is also under attack from Republicans for what they consider his overly tin ear on other subjects, most notably his statement that the outsourcing phenomenon is "a plus for the economy in the long run."

Still, his decision to fiddle with economic convention can't be seen as anything less than manipulation in an election year. In his press conference, Mankiw justified his decision by saying, correctly, that the NBER panel was already considering moving the recession start date forward. Some key data that the NBER watch -- including industrial production and inflation-adjusted business sales -- peaked in mid-2000. On the other hand, the latest revisions from the Bureau of Labor Statistics shifted the peak of nonfarm employment slightly later, from February to March, 2001. That's important, because the recessions of 1981-82 and 1990-91 both started in or after the month that employment fell.

But rather than waiting for the NBER's decision, Bush's CEA jumped the gun. And it made the biggest change possible, despite considerable debate within the NBER panel. The revised date is "very much up in the air," says Hall. Adds Jeffrey Frankel, a member of the NBER panel, an economist at Harvard University, and a former member of Bill Clinton's Council of Economic Advisers: "The way I read the data, there isn't a strong case for moving the date up by more than one month." That puts the start date at February, 2001, after Bush took office. The lack of a clear picture has led the NBER to hold off making a final decision pending more accurate data. There's "no sense of time pressure," says Hall. "We want to do this right."

Economists who go to Washington always struggle to maintain their objectivity against the political demands of the administration they work for. Based on its latest performance, the CEA seems to have lost the battle.

By Michael J. Mandel

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_08/b3871044.htm


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 Post Number: 88
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2007,3:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yawn.  We've covered this one before--you want to go back to an article that PRE-DATES the last argument?  What next--Bush went back in time to cause the Pearl Harbor attack?   :sarcasm:   There apparently IS no end to Bush Derangement Syndrome.

QUOTE
Instead of using the accepted start date of March, 2001, the CEA announced that the recession really started in the fourth quarter of 2000 -- a shift that would make it much more credible for the Bush Administration to term it the "Clinton Recession." In a subsequent press conference, Mankiw said that the CEA had looked at the available data and "made the call."
 The CEA revises the start date back one quarter (you might have noticed that government economists revise numbers all the time)  The CEA was not alone in noting the change
QUOTE
Mankiw justified his decision by saying, correctly, that the NBER panel was already considering moving the recession start date forward. Some key data that the NBER watch -- including industrial production and inflation-adjusted business sales -- peaked in mid-2000. On the other hand, the latest revisions from the Bureau of Labor Statistics shifted the peak of nonfarm employment slightly later, from February to March, 2001
 So now we have TWO agencies  that saw enough evidence of the Clinton Recession to dare to challenge his "legacy"--but CEA acted first.

Even this article admits
QUOTE
To be fair, even if the latest recession did begin after Bush took office in January, 2001, no one can say he caused it.


So what's the point? :dunno:

A Google look provides a rejoinder to your article  that goes into much more detail.  Pretty hard to argue with this.  nullMy Webpage  Or the previously printed chart (below).

What's the point of the argument?  Saving Clinton's "Legacy"? :p   The point is that despite the events of 9/11, the recession was over--the anti-recession programs worked.  I guess anything that Bush did RIGHT is an anathema to libs--BDS is alive and well. :p


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2007,10:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE

Even this article admits
QUOTE
To be fair, even if the latest recession did begin after Bush took office in January, 2001, no one can say he caused it.


So what's the point?  

What was the point when you called it "The Clinton Recession"? Was it that homoerotic Clinton fixation of yours, or are you just trying to revise history like the Partisan hacks at newsmax.com?


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2007,10:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

The title of the thread is "Are we in a recession?"  You bring up something from the 2004 election--a piece widely disproved in the press.  I give you SEVERAL references that prove the liberal allegation was wrong when written in 2004, and wrong NOW.  

You have to wonder why you are bringing it up NOW--what your agenda is--other than Bush Derangement Syndrome.


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197 replies since Oct. 24 2007,5:04 pm < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

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