|
|
| Post Number: 21
|
Liberal 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
 |
Posted on: May 25 2004,5:24 pm |
|
   |
The Apache was too far away to be heard by the targets. How did they have a better view?
| Quote |
Even wounded have the ability to fire back--I didn't see him try to surrender, either.
|
Fire what back? If that tube shaped object was a weapon then why didn't any ground forces recover it?
--------------
The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
|
 |
|
|
| Post Number: 22
|
Grinning_Dragon
rideo draconigena
Group: Members
Posts: 3095
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: May 25 2004,9:55 pm |
|
 |
| Quote | | The only good enemy is a DEAD ONE |
Oh come on now, any wounded soldier is still a threat. Rule #10 of combat.
And I bet if any of you were the chopper pilot, and seen that object, what would you think? Chit ya, you would have fired.
Don't think they aren't guilty of the same thing. No one is innocent..
None of us know what was going on, what was going thru the pilots head, nothing, that video only shows part of a story. What were the chapters about up until now?? YOU DONT KNOW...
Some of you also trying to piece NAM and this war is far fetching, for one this one is not under the UNs' B.S.(UN mandate of not winning wars only to squelch them) like NAM was. Two, NAM taught us alot, so did the Soviets mis-haps with Afganny. Three, our MEN and WOMEN in service to our country are better trained then the days of yester-year.
Four as my uncle(Viet Nam vet) once said, if you ain't been in a war STFU and get yer, biatch azz back in the kitchen, an army moves on its stomach....
PFFST, war crimes. Last time I checked we are not a part of that kangaroo court, the so called ICC.
You know I may have not liked the last 3 presidents, but one thing remains, I SUPPORT THE TROOPS.. GO GET EM BOYS. OOO-RAH
And now a little story I found funny..
An atheist teaching a college class told his
class that he could prove that there is NO God.
He said, "God, if you are real, then I want you
to knock me off this platform. You have 15 minutes!"
Ten minutes went by. He kept taunting God,
saying, "Here I am, God, still waiting."
Suddenly, a Marine, just back from active duty and newly
registered in the class, walks up and hits him full
force in the face sending him flying from his platform.
The shaken professor struggles to his feet and yells, "What's the matter with you? Why did you do that?"
The Marine smiled, "God was busy! He sent me!"
Life is good......Semper Fi
--------------
*SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS / MOLON LABE / Se Defendendo
memoria of cado frater ,Semper fidelis
*The object of war is NOT to DIE for YOUR Country, but to make the OTHER BASTARD DIE for HIS...Patton
My Constitutional Rights trump your dead.
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 23
|
Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: May 26 2004,7:40 am |
|
|
| Quote |
Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions: (1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: (a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) taking of hostages; © outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment; (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. (2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for. An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.
Chapter I Geneva Convention
|
The Geneva convention is pretty clear that you collect and care for the wounded. You don't put a couple more 30mm rounds into him.
That might seem stupid to some people, but, we signed the convention, we agreed to abide by it and so we shouldn't be killing wounded unarmed soldiers. Unless we want the same to happen to us.
Does anyone remember the Spc. Shoshana Johnson? She was the american soldier that was injured, taken prisoner and her wounds were treated. This was a person that was actively engaged in a firefight on the ground that had killed several Iraqiis yet the others still took her prisoner.
And how excactly was that Iraqii supposed to surrender? Find a white flag in those 5-10 secs as he was dragging himself away from the truck? Even if he would have waved a white flag a thermal imaging camera won't pick up a white flag. Maybe he should have just stood up and put his hands in the air after being hit by a 30mm chaingun?
I still doubt the story of a weapon, if there was a weapon why didn't we retrieve it?
--------------
The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 24
|
Grinning_Dragon
rideo draconigena
Group: Members
Posts: 3095
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: May 26 2004,7:58 am |
|
|
You can quote the GC all day, the fact remains the pilot must have felt that a threat still existed. So one cannot pump a few more rounds of lead into a wounded enemy even tho they are still trying to shoot back? BS, as long has they show aggression they are fair game no if ands or buts about it.
As you quoted, the section of the GC is only concerned about the welfare and treatment of soldiers incapacitated, and have surrendered, says nothing about a walking wounded with the intent of continuing to fight.
FLIR is not the only tool at hand in the Apache, they also have long range imaging w/NV.
--------------
*SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS / MOLON LABE / Se Defendendo
memoria of cado frater ,Semper fidelis
*The object of war is NOT to DIE for YOUR Country, but to make the OTHER BASTARD DIE for HIS...Patton
My Constitutional Rights trump your dead.
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 25
|
adamwpuyear
Group: Members
Posts: 132
Joined: May 2004
|
|
Posted on: May 26 2004,8:09 am |
|
|
Imagine fighting an enemy that does not wear a uniform, play by ANY rules, and could be anyone of nearly any age.
--------------
Only through knowledge can one truly realize the extent of their own ignorance.
You can have it:
1. Right
2. Cheap
3. Fast
(pick two)
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 26
|
jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: May 26 2004,9:40 am |
|
|
News release, April 1, 2005--
In a startling new development, President Kerry announced that he was reinventing the U.S. military. "Instead of cutting the military in HALF, like President Clinton, or actively USING it, like the illegitimate President Bush, I'm going to DOUBLE the size of the military", said Kerry. "For every person on the front lines, I'm going to assign a medic right beside him--not to take care of OUR soldiers, but the ones we wound. As quick as someone gets shot, we'll go out and patch them up before they die. I remember when I suffered grievous wounds in Vietnam (you did know I was in Vietnam, didn't you?). I would have been happy if the VC would have patched ME up. I could have bled to death for lack of a band-aid."
"This will have many positive ramifications down the road--the medical positions will be part of the 10,000,000 new jobs I promised to create, (or I never promised, I can't remember what I said). During the campaign, I always said I'd involve the U.N. in the war, as well--so I've been thinking about putting a U.N. observer alongside every U.S. fighting man (but then, since the U.S. provides most of the U.N. troops, we would have TWO U.S. armed forces there--THREE if you count the medic!) This would go along with my campaign statements that the U.S. has either too few or too many troops in the region (I can't remember what I said). All these extra passengers will prevent airplanes and helicopters from getting off the ground, and all these foreigners will certainly cause the Iraqis to want to end the war. This illegal, immoral war (oops, I forgot, I'M the commander -in -chief now!) will collapse under its own weight!
Kerry wanted to thank an anonymous Blogger from Minnesota--whose handle is LIBERAL--for coming up with the requirement to provide medical attention within seconds to every combatant incurring wounds. "This will change warfare as we know it", said Kerry. "The OLD PARADIGM--actually KILLING THE ENEMY", is passe", said Kerry, demonstrating once again his command of the French language. "I'm glad to see there are other liberals out there that know the meaning of nuance.  (sarcasm)
--------------
"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 27
|
Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: May 26 2004,10:14 am |
|
|
| Quote |
So one cannot pump a few more rounds of lead into a wounded enemy even tho they are still trying to shoot back? BS, as long has they show aggression they are fair game no if ands or buts about it.
|
What video did you see? There was no weapon, only a tube shaped object they put on the side of the road earlier and it was nowhere near the wounded Iraqii. Also no weapons were fired at an American or even pointed at an American.
Walking wounded? I guess you don't have to worry about them becoming walking wounded if you just carry out a summary excution of all unarmed suspected enemy combatants.
If there really was a weapon why didn't we retrieve it ?
--------------
The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 28
|
Nimble
Group: Members
Posts: 26
Joined: Mar. 2004
|
|
Posted on: May 26 2004,2:41 pm |
|
|
Liberal
If I read correctly this happened after the end of fighting with the actual soldiers...that being said this person would be considered anything but a soldier thus relieveing us from the geneva convention I believe. I guess thats how I would understand it.
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 29
|
Grinning_Dragon
rideo draconigena
Group: Members
Posts: 3095
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: May 26 2004,3:05 pm |
|
|
Its not what you or I saw, its what the Pilot seen & told the gunner, the gunner made the decision to fire.
The other thing, to take a chance of that object not being a weapon while waiting for ground forces to advance and investigate whether it was a weapon or not, would be foolish.
Not only do you endanger the chopper, the pilot, & gunner, but the lives of ground forces as well.
Never give the enemy time to regroup and launch a counter attack.
After a firefight, adrenaline is still running high, tunnel vision sets in, the brain switches to auto-self preservation mode.
Would any of you be making this much of a hoopla if the scenario were reservsed?
| Quote | | Take no Prisoners, take NO SCHIT!!! |
--------------
*SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS / MOLON LABE / Se Defendendo
memoria of cado frater ,Semper fidelis
*The object of war is NOT to DIE for YOUR Country, but to make the OTHER BASTARD DIE for HIS...Patton
My Constitutional Rights trump your dead.
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 30
|
Grinning_Dragon
rideo draconigena
Group: Members
Posts: 3095
Joined: Aug. 2003
|
|
Posted on: May 26 2004,3:38 pm |
|
|
| Quote | | Jim-I'm surprised that the Iraqis weren't killed outright--a 30mm shell is about an inch across--and these are normally AP shells, as well |
The Apache's 30mm gun is an area fire weapon used to suppress targets at close (up to 4 kilometer) ranges, it is capable of destroying lightly armored targets like armored personnel carriers (APCs) and air defense artillery (ADA) systems. The gun fires a High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP) ammunition. The gun fires 650 rounds per minute (fast for a single barrel gun), and can carry a maximum of 1200 rounds in the magazine located in the belly of the aircraft. The gun is capable of moving left and right in azimuth up to 86 degrees from the nose of the aircraft, as well as elevating 11 degrees and depressing 60 degrees. The gun can be aimed by the copilot gunner using the TADS day or night sensors, or by either pilot using the IHADSS helmet mounted sight. The term "chain" gun refers to the chain drive that drives the gun's firing cycle.
Info straight from an Apache mechanic and a U.S. Army Apache Instructor Pilot and Instrument Flight Examiner.
Just thought you would find that interesting as I did Jim.
--------------
*SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS / MOLON LABE / Se Defendendo
memoria of cado frater ,Semper fidelis
*The object of war is NOT to DIE for YOUR Country, but to make the OTHER BASTARD DIE for HIS...Patton
My Constitutional Rights trump your dead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
