| Topic: What do you think should be done about the meth ep, Here's some excellent copy from the DM R | < Next Oldest | Next Newest > |
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kid dyn-o-mite 
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Posted on: Apr. 27 2004,4:21 am |
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Check out this discussion from the Des Moines Register:
Methamphetamine
A decade-long meth epidemic has riddled Iowa with scars of war: Hundreds in jail and treatment after millions of dollars have been spent to fight the drug. A steadily increasing number of toxic manufacturing sites litter woods and fields. Record numbers of children are taken from families.
What do you think should be done about the meth epidemic?
For more information, see our Meth Web Extra
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Troy H - 10:03pm Nov 22, 2003 (1.)
www.glass-gardens.com
Quit wasting millions on failed marijuana prohibition policies would be a good start.
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Carl E. Olsen - 04:57pm Nov 23, 2003 (2.)
Get a real drug policy
U.S. drug policy is broken and needs fixin'.
A drug policy that treats marijuana as seriously as heroin and alcohol is sold in grocery stores is never going to get a handle on methamphetamine. The solution is to tax and regulate. Once you establish a licensing scheme, you won't have so many people breaking the law and you can move your resources over to the real criminals. Making criminals out of everyone who uses a drug makes about as much sense as putting people in jail for drinking a glass of wine, smoking a cigarette, or eating junk food. We've gone off the deep end with the war on drugs and there's no return until we rethink the entire policy. Howard Dean has made some good drug policy statements, such as the following from The Nation:
Dean maintains he doesn't "believe the war on drugs is a criminal matter; it's a public health matter. To throw users in jail is silly." Source: The Nation
Whether Dean really understands what he's saying is another matter, but it sounds like a good start to me.
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Troy H - 05:06pm Nov 23, 2003 (3.)
www.glass-gardens.com
and throwing them onto treatment centers even if they don't have a problem is a better one Carl?
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Michelle Gregory - 12:21am Nov 29, 2003 (4.)
Just throw all the meth manufacturers in jail...
and throw away the key. There's so many of them in M'town, it's sickening. And even if they catch one, they don't keep them very long. In fact, they'll let them go scot free if they'll give them names of other people who are making the stuff, and they let them go right back to what they were doing before--making and selling drugs.
What the users are doing is wrong, but they're often only hurting themselves (unless they've got kids, of course). The loss of their drug supply, and the withdrawal they'll have because of it should be punishment enough. Offer them treatment programs, but it won't work unless they want to change. The real criminals are the people who got them started, and keep them supplied.
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Troy H - 12:19am Dec 5, 2003 (5.)
www.glass-gardens.com
They get themselves started, and law enforcement helps the dealers by going after marijuana users. If you're gonna risk jail, much better to go with a high profit drug ya know.
A study from the U of I showed when marijuana enforcement is increased, the use of other harder drugs increases and the use marijuana stays about the same regardless. And with harder drugs comes more violence etc so hey, have at it people, reality means nothing right.
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Carl E. Olsen - 03:32pm Dec 14, 2003 (6.)
$20.00 says Saddam falls down the stairs at the jail
Hi Troy,
One of the reasons that we don't have a sensible drug policy is that we have very few people on our side who can articulate a reasonable argument without going off the deep end. A good example is the way you read "forced or coerced treatment" into my message. I never said anything about forcing anyone into treatment, and I said I was nervous about Dean's position on drug policy. When I say that drug abuse is a health issue instead of a criminal behavior, I would expect the government to give me the facts and let me make the decision on what to do about my health. Forcing people to stop using drugs would be like forcing people to stop eating junk food. Dean says you should force people into treatment, but his position is better than some. At least Dean says that people will need to be forced into treatment many times before they actually quite abusing drugs. Most folks say drug abusers should get one shot at rehabilitation and then go to directly to jail if they fail. Dean's position admits the fact that forced or coerced treatment does not work. You and I can disagree with him about whether forced or coerced treatment will ever work, but his position is more humane than the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" mentality we have seen. I'd rather argue with Dean than the current occupant of the White House.
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Troy H - 05:48pm Dec 14, 2003 (7.)
www.glass-gardens.com
Carl, we had this conversation once at the state fair.
By treating it as a "health issue" you do nothing to stop the idea that drug use equates to drug abuse, which is in reality the agenda of the democratic platform, to simply move the billions of dollars we spend on drug law enforcement into treatment while refusing to accept that the individual may or may not be a drug abuser, especially when it comes to marijuana use.
The facts are that the democrats are not interested in drug law reform any more than the republicans are. People who use drugs will still be seen as having "a problem", the only difference being what type of facility they go to after an arrest and/or conviction.
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Julie R. - 02:17pm Jan 3, 2004 (8.)
Meth
I am a recovering addict-14 yrs. clean. What I see happening is the closing of treatment centers and the building of more prisons. that makes no sense to me, the "help" people will get in prison is not what they need to overcome what the meth out there today has done, not only to their bodies, but, especially to their minds. What I have heard and read, is it takes right at a year to overcome the effects of what the meth has done to people. Prison is not the place to get that recovery. All we are doing is making a generation of felons instead of trying to get them the help that is so desperately needed.
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Michelle Gregory - 05:44pm Jan 3, 2004 (9.)
Thank you for your testimony
Perhaps if more people would listen to those who have 'been there', we wouldn't have the problems we're having now. It's my belief that the suppliers are the ones who belong in jail, and not the users that direly need help to get their lives back. They're getting the short end of the stick in more ways than one. They suffer enough just trying to get off the stuff, and I'm sure you can attest to that. Not all prisons have metal bars; some come in a syringe.
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Julie R. - 03:38pm Jan 6, 2004 (10.)
Plain and simple
Troy, You keep bring up drug addiction not being a health issue. Have you ever seen someone go through withdrawal ? I have, and believe me it was the saddest thing I had ever seen. Do you honestly believe any drug addict can be helped in prison? I think not. Like I said, they keep tearing down treatment centers and building prisons so we can end up with a generation of felons instead of a generation of people in recovery who are willing to give something back to their communities! Do you know people in recovery? I know a whole bunch-being in recovery myself for almost 14 yrs.-I have met recovery people who are now council people for city governments, doctors, counselors, just all sorts of people in all walks of life. It's all due to treatment centers NOT prisons.
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Troy H - 09:25pm Jan 6, 2004 (11.)
www.glass-gardens.com
Julie, I think you misunderstand my position completely.
Yes I have seen people go through withdrawal, myself included being a recovered alcoholic. I doubt there's much you can tell me about drug abuse and treatment actually.
My problems with calling it a health issue is that it still fails to recogonize that not all drugs are dangerous and not all people who use them are abusers or even problem users and forcing someone who smokes a joint now and thejn into a treatment center does more harm to them than any drug and takes away beds from people who need them and want the help.
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Julie R. - 03:06pm Jan 7, 2004 (12.)
Drugs
Troy, We still have to call it a health issue. We just have to get some educated people in there who know what they're doing. If we get the right people in there and get the right sort of testing set up we can weed out not only the casual users but the addicts who have been to treatment 26 times (I actually know someone who has been to treatment 26 times). That is all it's going take, guidlines for treatment.
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Troy H - 05:57pm Jan 7, 2004 (13.)
www.glass-gardens.com
But that won't happen. The only reason the dems want to call it a health issue is so they can get more money for treatment programs, public and private and cater to the industries they serve. They have no desire what so ever to deal with the issue honestly.
The only difference between the two ideas, law enforcement vs. health issue is where a drug user will spend their time. I'd rather it be jail quite frankly, I've seen what happens to people who get sent to treatment centers and insist they don't have a problem when they don't and the damage to a persons life created by such a situation is no different, they still lose a job, maybe family, and spending a few months having a bunch of fools playing head games with you is tantamount to pyschological torture and terrorism.
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kid dyn-o-mite
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Posted on: Apr. 27 2004,4:24 am |
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Continued...
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(13 previous messages)
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Julie R. - 08:17pm Jan 10, 2004 (14.)
Troy, I'm beginning to think this is one issue you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. I DO see some of your points as I hope you see some of mine. I think it boils down to each persons own beliefs and standards. Have you seen what they've been saying about us over on the religion page? By the way, Troy, I really do enjoy debating subjects with you. I have to hand it to you (as much as I hate to admit this!!), it is obvious you are a very well read, intelligent person. One that's interested in the world around him. I really appreciate that-these days it's pretty hard to find.
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Troy H - 09:54pm Jan 10, 2004 (15.)
www.glass-gardens.com
I could care less what they say about me on the religion pages quite frankly. If my beliefs were based on what other people think of them then I put my faith in very shaky things indeed.
But yes, on this issue, we'll have to disagree.
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Julio J - 01:14pm Jan 13, 2004 (16.)
Legislate Morality
Basically isn't the drug policy trying to legislate morality? Which I suppose what all laws do but we are not ever going to see this problem go away for the same reason that we have the problem...money! There is too much money being made from the alcohol and beer companies who have people at the capitol (state and federal), that lobby for thier industries. I don't beleive that our government looks out for the average citizen. So someone happened to be on drugs when they committed a crime so we are going to make that drug illegal. WHAT? what about enforcing the laws that are on the books. Burglary...go to jail! It's like a comic once said, "Isn't it sad that someone can steal your car and get out of jail before you can get a new one!"
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C. Franklin - 02:37pm Jan 13, 2004 (17.)
Drug/Counseling/Industry Issues
Hey Troy. C. Franklin from the West Coast. I agree with you (don't be too surprised) on your take on "rehab." My husband worked for years in the Drug/Alcohol Rehab "Industry" and I will pass on some of his comments for your readin' pleasure.
First, he tells me that the whole "industry" of substance abuse/alcohol rehab revolves around the medical model...that is insurance companies can charge premiums to insure folks for treatment...and you know that those companies make more than they spend...so the whole issue is dollar (or yen or Euro Dollar) driven...with the "addicted" person being merely the common denominator for the exchange of funds and the driving force for the whole industry. The person's well being and "cure" being nearly the last concern in the whole equation.
It was and is his belief that the well-being of the client was and probably still is among the last concerns for the caregivers....their interest is mostly money....federal, state, county, city, private benefactors, etc...paying for the service.
Whatever has worked for anyone to get out from under the weight and pain of an addiction is a good thing. His (and my) belief is that this area of "disease" has many foundations but among the chief among them is the desire to use the "drug of choice" and temp fate because the person considers themselves above becoming addicted....and as we all know, few who truly enjoy a specific liquid or substance avoid fate.
As to ability to cure the abuse problems...especially regarding drugs (vs. alcohol) that those that sell them should be pinned to the ground with cold steel (read: bayonet) and them that use 'em should just be considered unintelligent risk takers that end up more stupid than when their "great" journey began. They then soak up a lot of funds for their recovery....what is wrong with the whole picture? To recover from stupidity (all the while blaming the system, school, parents, etc for their addiction) takes much longer than the recovery from substance abuse...some never get over it as they continue to go through years of treatment from a variety of sources while those super pro counselors are dealin' with drugs and not stupidity.
Now as what to do about the situation regarding legal issues. My guy here and I support the idea that our country give about a hundred thousand square miles of some inland desert area, move out the good folks (paying them well), move in the wacked groups, and fence it off. Into this area can move those that want everything legalized--after all, it will be "their" area...they can take the ACLU, the pedophiles, the NORML crowd, the wacko environmentalists, the femi-nazis, the gay marriage group, and infect the whole area with their choices. Along with them they may take the meth makers, pot growers, and their addicted crowd and do just whatever they want....of course, there will be no treatment available, so it would be my guess that not too many will start their little habit. Just keep 'em out of my neighborhood as I don't have to read any thug, lowlife, drug sellin', scum bag, their rights.... I don't believe law enforcement or counseling or that mushy liberal understanding will cure any of our nations' abuse problems....believe it will eventually be settled by the population when they have had enough of the scumbags hangin' around. We have cleared out a nearby park from these freaks...and I understand they probably went somewhere else, but they're not here for my neighbors, my family, and park visitors to suffer...and ya, I wasn't too nice nor did I suffer in any consideration of the medical model....I just simply went after a bunch of stupid and not nice people in terms even they could understand and ran their sorry a--es outta here. Nor would I ever want the prime consideration for treatment by a treatment giver being I've been there. BTW just found out while doing family research that I am a decendant of a famous pirate from the late 1600's who sailed the Mediterranean Sea go figure.... all the best from the West Coast C. Franklin
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Troy H - 06:22pm Jan 13, 2004 (18.)
www.glass-gardens.com
So maybe we should reserve a spot for you?
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C. Franklin - 07:39pm Jan 13, 2004 (19.)
A spot for me?
Hey Troy.
If the spot for me is in reference to my pirate heritage, all I can say that the Pirate Anti-Defamation League shall be in contact....they are a new special interest group that is being courted by Howard Dean....he has a special feeling for them but they don't return the favor....something about walkin' the plank...I'm not sure. Me thinks that the Pirates don't want to be associated with a sinking ship and losing battle, but that's only a guess. I only have a tentative membership with the league for now anyway.
Now if it's in reference to something else that I wrote, please tell me where I have gone wrong....
Hey hope you're warm back there and that the winter hasn't been too harsh. Very, very wet here with more on it's way.
All the best, C. Franklin
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Troy H - 10:01pm Jan 13, 2004 (20.)
www.glass-gardens.com
Well let's see, you make the ever so present mistake of basically stating any who uses drugs is a scumbag loser, and rank them in with all manner of criminal including pedophiles, which certainly proves your utter ignorance.
You also make a distinction between alcohol and "hard drugs" when in fact when it comes to "hard drugs" alcohol remains the most often abused, the one that costs society the most in terms of lost lives, broken families, lost productivity etc. and I've found it a rule rather than an exception that people who make this distinction use the drug themselves, most often to excess on occasion or worse.
So basically in one ignorant statement you've managed to show yourself inept at having a rational debate on the facts and issues, and I dare say if you're expressing an attitude echoed by your husband who profited from the industry at one time, it's better off that he no longer serves in it. We need people who know what their talking about as opposed to the nonsense you sputtered.
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C. Franklin - 10:58pm Jan 13, 2004 (21.)
Troy, Troy, Troy
Hello my man. Yep, drug abusers are law breakers and all, if not Most, law breakers are entitled to embrace themselves with the title of scumbag. If the title is unearned, please...my apology....dig it?
Yep, my hubby did the drug "industry" thing where the counselors made zip and the administrator/manager made more the the President of the United States....his education allowed him to bug out when he learned the industry standards....
Troy, where ya been. Alcohol (for persons of appropriate age) is not an illegal drug.....the old book Licit and Illicit Drugs comes to mind. I agree however, that alcohol is a drug and is oft abused...again by stupid people who didn't know which crutch was the best to prop themselves up. Hubby worked in both alcohol and drug treatment and concurs with your allegation that both sides look at one another with profound disdain.
What nonsense are you speaking of. What is wrong with isolating all of society's maladjusted players to a desert paradise? Hell, it would empty out the prisons, the half way houses and lessen the burden on all hard working people of these society misfits.
Have a good one. More later. C. Franklin
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kid dyn-o-mite
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Posted on: Apr. 27 2004,4:26 am |
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(21 previous messages)
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C. Franklin - 02:22am Jan 14, 2004 (22.)
Troy...This is later and here's more
Hey Troy... Please don't get me wrong. We both have much empathy for those that have been or are caught in an addictive snare. I have profound feelings of loss at anyone who is so entangled in making bad decisions and mostly conscious decisions that lead to loss of control and some horrible life experiences. Don't mean they don't turn into scumbags and low lifes or that they didn't get stupid and get into addiction.
That being said...anyone, and I mean anyone, that abuses illicit drugs is just plain out of their mind (read that mental and moral weakness) going in. Everyone knows that meth, for example, rots one from the inside out, ruins their life and family, chases them into criminal activity, and pretty much fills out a death warrant with the date to be filled in upon the event. Anyone that decides to take that risk....sorry, they're just plain stupid. Alcohol is a bit more incidious...it kinda creeps up on ya, and wham, you let it, yes let it, take control and become a master to your life....not much good happens as a result. Now, also, most people are aware of alcoholism and yet, some choose to take the risk and deny that they can ever be caught. Sad thing. Too many people that were productive, good people, family people, upstanding people, think that they're smarter than booz and drugs and consciously start up their own motor headin' for destruction. Not too much sympathy here for those decisions.
As the Eagles song, "Get Over It," starts out... "I turn on the tube and what do I see, a whole lotta people cryin' don't blame me. They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else, spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves. Victim of this, victim of that....Your momma's too thin, your daddy's too fat....Get over it, Get over it. All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit....get over it." That pretty well sums it up on my feelings.
I agree throwing a huge pile of money at the problem will not solve it. Regarding those that make and sell meth for instance, public executions would be a good thing. Those that make, process and sell heroin and cocaine...same fate. Now those not smart people that use this kind of stuff.....move to the desert paradise and get out of decent society until you're again ready to fit in and conform to the norm of not using illegal drugs (really, most mature individuals don't). As for the alcohol problem, too bad you can't easily make a statement about producers and sellers as it's legal. But for those that think they can buck the odds and go from a casual user to a chronic user and then abuser...that's a decision they make...nobody forces them to make that choice.
It's really not a medical problem (per se) as I see it (although it is treated like one)...it's a social problem frequented by lost souls who expect everyone's insurance premium to see them through their voluntary choice. That's just wrong. Don't have any answers on how to make it right, but the "medical model" just makes it seem ok somehow and provides an excuse for most that abuse...after all, it's an illness....geez, whatta load of stuff.
So, let's publicly execute producers and sellers, ship the users off to the desert paradise and open up the prison beds for those really bad people. Saves the public a load of money to feed the needy, make more money available for education, decent roads, a profound economy, and a population of people not burdened by those that voluntarily choose a particular life style that end up being fed, housed, clothed, treated at the public expense, and released mostly for naught. They're lost souls and until they discover themselves, at their own expense, they remain an untolerable burden on those of us that don't use or abuse drugs and alcohol. Heck, if they make it, (and some do, in spite of treatment) good for them and God Bless 'em...if they don't...no real loss to the society as a whole.
To those recovering...way to go. To those who have yet to decide to again live a full life, the choice is yours....not mine.
Hey, not using or abusing...never have, never will... although, I do find bashing progressive, whining, slurpy, socialist liberals (and no, that does not include all liberal people) kind of an addiction (it's not illegal ya know and I can stop anytime I choose....just haven't yet made that choice)... from the Left Coast, C. Franklin
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Troy H - 08:29am Jan 15, 2004 (23.)
www.glass-gardens.com
Too bad you just wasted all that bandwidth without actually saying anything worth reading.
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Julie R. - 11:37am Jan 15, 2004 (24.)
What did she just say???
C. Franklin, Are you high!! You sound like you've burned out a few brain cells yourself. You go on and on without saying anything. I don't even know how to respond to such babble. Honey, you are trying WAY to hard to sound intelligent, and all you do is come across as a complete idiot. Have you ever stopped to think that the only reason that alcohol is still legal (with none of these taxes being tacked onto it, like every other thing) is because the powers that be enjoy their own drinks after their oh-h-h so hard day at work? Please, when you answer this, keep it short and to the point.
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C. Franklin - 12:42pm Jan 15, 2004 (25.)
Troy and Julie...
Hey....you guys turned personal too quick.....some defensiveness noted... Ok. Troy, you whine about wasted ban space but yet you continue to contribute...hummmmmmm
Julie. In your effort to sound unintelligent, you have succeeded. Check your facts on taxes on alcohol both state and federal...then remove yer foot.... And no, not everyone is in treatment, nor does everyone abuse to the point they need treatment...and very many folks that I know do not drink or use anything illegal at all.
Nope, Julie, you're wrong again.....never lost a brain cell to alcohol or drugs. Have had a few beers and a few drinks (that's all) during this life and have never done any illicit drugs of any kind. And yet, I have fun.
Nor do I need to tout my recovery as I was never stupid enough to get into a dependency situation from which I needed to recover...unlike some.
Sorry...but you guys decided to personalize this thread. Thought this was a place to put forth ideas and thoughts....even waaaay out thoughts....sorry. I am, however, entitled to my opinion on how to address any issue and stand by my thoughts. I never thought pandering to some mushy idea on how to solve problems was the way to go. Ya go in, remove the problem, and move on....
I guess I had forgotten about the Iowa thin skin syndrome.
All the best, C. Franklin
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Julie R. - 11:29am Jan 16, 2004 (26.)
C. Franklin
Your problem is, and I DON'T MEAN TO OFFEND, is you put in so many words that by the time you get to your point, you have lost everyone, sweetie. Try using less words and getting straight to the point. You will be MUCH more effective. You just lose people way to fast and end up coming across as, and I don't mean this personally, a nut. Try it, and then see what kind of response you get. Good luck!
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Troy H - 01:25pm Jan 16, 2004 (27.)
www.glass-gardens.com
let's see hates pretty much anything that doesn't agree with what she sees as moral including the ACLU and gays, pretty obvious what she is.
Bet she loves Rush though.
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Aaron Trausch - 04:59pm Feb 2, 2004 (28.)
Addiction should not be criminal
It seems that the issue of addiction should be looked at as a health care issue, such as the way they do in Holland, not a punishment issue, it is a disease. Prevention and treatment seems to be a much better solution, rather than using methods of punishment that tear apart the families of our fellow Iowans, and just increases the burden put on the tax payer.
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Julie R. - 02:51pm Feb 6, 2004 (29.)
Sometimes
What about the addict who seems to think they need to go to treatment 26 times!!! I actually know someone who has used the system to go to treament 26 times to avoid prison. Because his family had money to get a high priced attorney, and arranged this. That in itself is criminal. I feel there should be a limit on the number of times you are allowed in treatment. After 2 times in treatment what else can you get out of it? You know what you need to do-don't use and go to meetings. Sounds pretty simple to me. It's people like the one I mentioned that has ruined it for the ones who truly need treatment. Like I have said before, they need to quit tearing down treatment centers and building more prisons. But along those lines, they also, need to make some stipulations and regulate these treatment centers better than they have in the past. There should be certain requirements to get into a treatment center. I'm not an expert, but they should be seen by an expert. Someone who can determine if they're there for all the right reasons and not just to avoid prison. Even so, I have seen some court ordered people make it in treatment, so I really don't have any answers except, we have to avoid making a generation of felons.
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W. D. Hunter - 06:44am Feb 7, 2004 (30.)
"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie
Talk about a repeat offender....
Julie,
Talk about a repeat offender. 26 times for treatment and no jail time. That is amazing to me. Again, as with all my posts; this is just my humble opinion and two cents worth. Thanks for reading and contributing to the Des Moines Register's forums.
Julie R. writes: "What about the addict who seems to think they need to go to treatment 26 times!!! I actually know someone who has used the system to go to treatment 26 times to avoid prison. Because his family had money to get a high priced attorney, and arranged this. That in itself is criminal. I feel there should be a limit on the number of times you are allowed in treatment. After 2 times in treatment what else can you get out of it? You know what you need to do-don't use and go to meetings. Sounds pretty simple to me. It's people like the one I mentioned that has ruined it for the ones who truly need treatment. Like I have said before, they need to quit tearing down treatment centers and building more prisons. But along those lines, they also, need to make some stipulations and regulate these treatment centers better than they have in the past. There should be certain requirements to get into a treatment center. I'm not an expert, but they should be seen by an expert. Someone who can determine if they're there for all the right reasons and not just to avoid prison. Even so, I have seen some court ordered people make it in treatment, so I really don't have any answers except, we have to avoid making a generation of felons."
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kid dyn-o-mite
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Posted on: Apr. 27 2004,4:27 am |
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Continued...
For Aaron and Julie
Greetings.
Aaron, the system in Holland (I am very, very Dutch and still have a wealth of relatives there and correspond regularily with them) is a fine example of the inmates running the asylum. The "ordinary" citizens of Holland regret and hold the current "turn your back to drugs," and the pseudo-treatmentindustry responsible for the high rate of criminal activity due to tolerated addiction.
Julie. Hi. Your information about the 26-efforts at treatment kinda go to my earlier thoughts of the "recovery industry." Seems some of those places are there for themselves and don't or won't answer to treatment effectiveness. Certainly there are successful treatment facilities but it is my view that the successes are in the desires of the users to change more than any specific noteworthiness of the facility itself. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my belief.
In the drug/alcohol treatment field there are those facilities that chortle about their percentages of success. What is not told that they have a very extreme attitude towards admission and screen out most of the applicants and focus only on those that meet their criteria for possible success. hummmmmmmm
All the best from (today anyway) the sunny Oregon Coast. C. Franklin
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Troy H - 04:51pm Feb 8, 2004 (32.)
www.glass-gardens.com
According to the information I've read, including statements from Dutch law enforcement, I would say your view of the Dutch system is somewhat in error.
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C. Franklin - 07:37pm Feb 8, 2004 (33.)
Troy...Troy....Troy
Hi Troy.
Read my post again....slowly.
Geez Troy....you make such knee jerk statements about MY views being somewhat in error.
I know well you don't like my views, but you are so slanted against what I say, you don't read too clearly nor apparently understand what you read. I said that it was the view of my relatives.....they live there and sorry if their info doesn't match up to your reading of Dutch Law Enforcement sources. Guess sometimes it makes sense to read "stuff" from the people involved in the society rather than some public information made available through official press release.
Lighten up. Do you really believe if the system in The Netherlands was not doing well, that the authorities would come out and say so?
Read some other sources...might be informative. After all, as you and I know all too well, there are differing views on the same subject. But don't tell me I am wrong as all I did was share the views of some of my Dutch relatives who just have a better idea on what's going on there than you...even with your readings.
All the best, C. Franklin
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Troy H - 10:57pm Feb 8, 2004 (34.)
www.glass-gardens.com
Read my post again....slowly
I read it the first time, it wasn't all that complicated
Geez Troy....you make such knee jerk statements about MY views being somewhat in error
There was nothing knee jerk about it, it was a factual statement based on information from a variety of sources.
I know well you don't like my views, but you are so slanted against what I say, you don't read too clearly nor apparently understand what you read
I don't like your views because they rarely reflect anything other than a preconcieved attitude backed up by little actual fact. In other words, they come from an arrogance that in reality has little justification. Your posts have reinforced that time and time again.
aid that it was the view of my relatives.....they live there and sorry if their info doesn't match up to your reading of Dutch Law Enforcement sources
Actually what I said was the information included statements from Dutch law enforcement, but by no means did I indicate that was the sole source of information.
Guess sometimes it makes sense to read "stuff" from the people involved in the society rather than some public information made available through official press release
By that argument, the literature and propaganda from the KKK would have legitimacy. But rest assured, my information does in part come from Dutch citizens.
Lighten up
No need to since I was merely responding to what I believe was a somewhat innaccurate statement. I suggest if you don't want a response, don't post.
Do you really believe if the system in The Netherlands was not doing well, that the authorities would come out and say so?
Well since law enforcement is usually the first one to point out the problems laws create ... we're not talking about politicians, we're talking about police officers.
Read some other sources...might be informative
I have and they were. For instance, I learned about some of our politicians distortions of fact regarding Dutch drug policy.
After all, as you and I know all too well, there are differing views on the same subject
And then there are facts. Views are statements like dutch drug policies have failed, facts say differently.
But don't tell me I am wrong as all I did was share the views of some of my Dutch relatives who just have a better idea on what's going on there than you...even with your readings
Or it could be that like you, they have an inherent arrogance and anything that doesn't fit in with their ideas of decent society are wrong. Since I deal with facts and I've read a great deal from numerous sources, I'd say that such is probably the case.
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Carl E. Olsen - 09:54pm Feb 9, 2004 (35.)
Troy doesn't get it
Drug abuse is a health issue, not a criminal behavior. Alcohol abuse is a health issue. Alcohol use, while not particularly unhealthy for most folks is still a matter of health. Tobacco use, while unhealthy for most folks, is still a matter of health and not a criminal behavior. The fact is, drug use and drug abuse are not the same thing. Assuming that people are going to be locked up in treatment facilities for using marijuana because we recognize drug abuse as a health issue is a leap of logic that is beyond my comprehension. That's like saying you can force people into drug treamtment for sipping a glass of wine or having a beer. Alcohol abuse is a health issue. You don't get forced into treatment for alcohol abuse unless you completely lose control. If smoking pot causes you to lose complete control, then I think you should be forced into treatment because you are actually threatening the lives of everyone else. If you can smoke pot and mind your manners, then nobody should bother you.
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Troy H - 10:47pm Feb 9, 2004 (36.)
www.glass-gardens.com
I get it Carl.
And as I stated before the problem I have with democratic platform making drug abuse a "health issue" is that they no more make a distinction between use and abuse anymore than those who think it's a law enforcement issue. That's not a leap of logic, it's a cold hard fact.
You want to make it a health issue, that's great, then make it a health issue and remove the criminal penalties so when a person who doesn't have a problem with marijuana doesn't find himself listening to a lawyer telling him to accpet treatment and go through the motions just to avoid a criminal penalty. That's what you have now, and your "change" doesn't change anything.
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C. Franklin - 02:02pm Feb 10, 2004 (37.)
sounds like a communicable disease
So it's a disease.
That being the case, then that must mean there is a specific contagion and its many different strains. It seems apparent that some of you have had problems with the law in the past. Let me make a stretch of memory as I recall hmmm... the locals reference to pot as I lived in Ia. Some of you have given testimony toward your or others' crutches. While you were under the influence of recovery you described how you were nothing more than a boil that thought you were above the law. What were the names of the contagions in the 70's.. columbian gold, panama red, thai stick and the ever popular gotta smoke a truck load to achieve a head ache... Iowa ditch. I cannot recall the many other names.. oh yea reefer, smoke, weed, rope, burn, maui wowie, oh yes medical terms for your disease for those with a similiarly weak system.
I live in OR. The medical card user is often the dealer and a disease on society. Card carrying certifiable pothead is usually arrested because the 500 plants were for personal use. Those card carrying people also have beliefs that they are above the law. As far as any old drunk goes, you get inbibed and break the law that makes you a law breaker..... You drink until your body and mind are poisoned. Maybe it will only be the suffrages of liver disease.
But until the former is made legal it is still a social and legal issue. It would be my preference that the likes of a non user, someone who hasn't been a pothead be the ones to approach the elected bodies for legalization. My second preference would be that those elected persons have not smoked pot.
Remember, I do believe that the truth is that these "social/medical" problems are not other than a conveyance of the thought that one is not responsible for their own actions. A lot of issues are being made into "you're not responsible...," and the upstart of this thought is that stuff is ok...after all, you're just suffering a disease and shouldn't be held responsible for any of your actions.
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C. Franklin - 02:14pm Feb 10, 2004 (38.)
Oh Troy, BTW
Hi Troy.
This is just a prompt that I will relate some of my great aunt's thoughts about your comment about her having, "an inherent arrogance with anything that doesn't fit in with their (her) ideas of a decent society..."
She lives in Leiden (between Rotterdam and Amsterdam) and I will be talking with her before the weekend. She was merely an attorney and was a member of the city government there for many years. She retired some time back. If there is anything you would like me to ask her, please post before Thursday if you can.
I don't think you will get much agreement on your point of view from her. We haven't talked a great deal about the situation there but she has said that the "slime" of Europe now resides in the Dutch cities due to the reformed laws.
See ya. C. Franklin
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C. Franklin - 02:55pm Feb 10, 2004 (39.)
Furthermore
Those fine hard core people with irradicable systems implemented in the drug trade have killed many not because of a disease. They kill because the loss of income, health, family, etc. Some of those nasty people would say life is a disease. Those nasty criminals apparently at times seek criminal cures to their problems...maybe we should just say that their acts too are part of the medical problem and nothing more that an extension of their disease. Can we tolerate murder, extortion, theft, etc., as manifestations of the disease? All the best, C. Franklin
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Continued...
Troy H - 06:36pm Feb 10, 2004 (40.)
www.glass-gardens.com
I've heard all the rhetoric before Franklin, too bad the facts don't bear it out.
McCaffery tried fudging the numbers and was soundly refuted much to the US's embarassment.
The fact is, no matter how hard you want to try and spin it, the facts say marijuana is not a dangerous drug by any standard.
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C. Franklin - 07:57pm Feb 10, 2004 (41.)
No spin
Marijuana by itself not a danger,unless of course it is being smoked,sold,grown or otherwise used. Any questions or comments for my great aunt? More later. C.Franklin
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Carl E. Olsen - 10:40pm Feb 10, 2004 (42.)
Troy only listens to himself
Nice try, Troy. Its a health issue, not a criminal matter. You consistently ignore the second half of the statement. If it's not a criminal matter, there's no criminal penalty to avoid.
And, I agree with C. Franklin - a marijuana user can't make the argument for legalization because a user can't look at the issue objectively.
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Troy H - 12:03am Feb 11, 2004 (43.)
www.glass-gardens.com
Marijuana by itself not a danger,unless of course it is being smoked,sold,grown or otherwise used. Any questions or comments for my great aunt? More later. C.Franklin
That's interesting, for any study you can provide showing any real harm, I can show you one that says it's bunk. And I could care less what your great aunt has to say, I know what the facts say, anything else is just an opinion.
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Troy H - 12:13am Feb 11, 2004 (44.)
www.glass-gardens.com
Troy only listens to himself
Not really, I listen to quite a few pople when they deal with something in an honest manner.
Nice try, Troy. Its a health issue, not a criminal matter
So where exactly have I said otherwise Carl? Of course it's a health issue which is why all marijuana prohibition laws should be repealed immediately and all focus put on health concerns where needed.
You consistently ignore the second half of the statement. If it's not a criminal matter, there's no criminal penalty to avoid
And you consistently weasel around the fact that you nor the democratic party are not advocating legalization of marijuana of any sort. Until it is legalized, it will continue to be a law enforcement issue first and foremost with treatment and counseling offered as an alternative to a criminal process.
And, I agree with C. Franklin - a marijuana user can't make the argument for legalization because a user can't look at the issue objectively
I haven't used marijuana for quite sometime Carl, when did you quit?
C Franklin, if you look at the posts she's made on this forum, is nothing more than an arrogant right wing whacko who pretty much holds herself above most of the human race. Anyone or anything she doesn't agree with is lumped together in one huge mass of evil.
Why don't you read her comments about gays sometime, very insightful.
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Julie R. - 12:39pm Apr 10, 2004 (44.1)
Troy, You are soooo right
Troy I have to agree with you about C. Franklin. She thinks that because she lives in California (I'm guessing that's her exuse) she's way above the rest of us. By golly we're just a bunch of 'ole Iowa hicks to her I'll bet. Boy, do we have news for her. She's the most narrow-minded person to post on these forums. She lives in a dream world. Maybe it isn't her great auntie that's getting high>
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C. Franklin - 12:47am Feb 11, 2004 (45.)
Troy...quite some time...uh, maybe noon today?
And you sir are sooooooooo wrong. I am not an arrogant right wing wacko....nor do I subscribe to any thoughts that I am above other people. I just know stupid when I correspond with him on this forum. You accuse others of being wacko when they do not accept your points of view... speaking of arrogant, sir you win the award. I have said that using drugs is just plain stupid....and you have....I rest my case. Stupid is as stupid does kind sir. I have said that those that do stupid things should be welcomed to a big wasteland out in the desert where like minded people can indulge in their wildest whims....just asking that they take their stupid behaviors away from the main stream of society that has some pretty well tested views of right and wrong. In fact, I welcome the opportunity to walk through life without having to contend with people who do stupid illegal things, nor those that support those stupid behaviors. Yet, I support their right to choose to do same at their leisure, but away from people who don't condone criminal and stupid behavior.
Uh, Troy, are you gay or something? Heck, you have spouted your views all over this forum, might as well take this chance to come out if you're so inclinded.
Am wondering when you made such an arrogant and wacko statement about my Dutch relatives why you wouldn't have a question or comment for my Great Aunt? You made a brash accusation and wonder where the sand is to follow up your statements? Uh, maybe you're wrong and you know it....that's a guess on my part.
Spout away Troy, the light is shining on you now. Your views on most of what I have read of yours on this forum are a little out of the main stream of intelligent thought and now it's your turn to glow in the admiration of others. All the best, C. Franklin
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Julie R. - 01:01pm Apr 10, 2004 (45.1)
Hah!
My dear C. Franklin, you say you've never done drugs. That's truly a shame, them you'd have an excuse for spouting off such nescience statements. Troy and I of course, have been your assaultees. Probably because you know you can't win when your against us. As i've tried to get through to you before, This is a very diverse world we live in. Sweetie, I want to to get a dictionary and look that word up, because you obviously STILL haven't gotten a grasp what diversity means. You are the most Shallow-minded, mean-spirited person to ever post on these forums. Which, living in the great all mighty state of California (in case you didn't catch that, that was a HUGE joke) I have yet to figure why you are even posting in little 'ole Iowa (another joke, in case you didn't catch that one either). It's time to grow up and realize that all the people you don't like are not going to magically disappear to one of your figment of imagination islands so they don't disturb you or dirty your little mind any more. GROW UP AND GET REAL. THIS WONDERFUL WORLD WE LIVE IN IS MADE UP OF ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE WHICH I THANK THE GOOD LORD FOR EVERY SINGLE DAY.
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Continued...
C. Franklin - 12:44pm Apr 14, 2004 (45.1.1)
Oh Julie
Greetings:
I would like to clarify to you some of the beliefs about this forum and other ideas that you seem to hold so dear.
First: You mention that I can't win against yourself and Troy. Geez, I never saw this as a contest where there were winners and losers. I have operated under the belief that this was a forum for those holding differing views to exchange thoughts. I believe that you are operating under some false pretense if you consider these discussions a contest of some kind where one forces their opinion on others in order to consider it a win. Of course, you should continue on as you do if you really believe this is a contest. I don't see it as such.
Second: I congratulate your son on making some positive life decisions. In another post you questioned my use of the word reprobate. Well, my dictionary here shows one of the definitions as "abandoned to punishment, condemned." Guess that word was appropriate as your son did his time (punishment) for breaking the law (for which he was condemned). I believe that I used the correct word in you son's case.
Third: Diversity. "...unlikeness, different." Well, I hold a value system that is different from yours. I offer my thoughts and you respond with, "shallow-minded, mean spirited person.." You use ignorant and other adjectives to describe my beliefs. You go on to say that "world we live in is made up of all kinds of people..." for which you thank the good lord. Why are my differing opinions not a part of the diverse culture upon which you so often chortle and give thanks? You told Timothy on another subject on 4/11 at 11:44, "Why is it that ANYONE that doesn't believe as you believe is ignorant or stupid or wrong? Aren't people allowed to have different opinions from you or do they have to think just as you do to be right?" Oh Jule, please practice what you seem so regularily to preach. I turn your question around to you from me. This forum is not an exchange to determine right or wrong, rather an exchange of opinions, thoughts, values and at time flames. I can hope that you see the hypocracy of your statements. You chortle diversity yet attack me, and others with your venom for holding views that are different from yours. You lecture other forum users with your warm fuzzy beliefs on diversity then slam them when their views differ from yours. When will your definition of diversity show up to accept others' views? Or do you shout diversity just for practice?
Fourth: Regarding my thoughts on what you call an island, I call a fenced enclosure holding those that choose harmful, and sometimes law-breaking lifestlyes. I take your son's experience to make my point. Let's see, 6 1/2 years incarcerated then 5 1/2 weeks for a violation. Using a conservative estimate, that comes out to approximately $180,000 charged to the taxpayers to make a home for him for his wrong doings. One of the points on having a place for those that choose a lifestyle that costs the taxpayers more than just a little money, is to let fellow lawbreakers and other malcontents pay for the harm done by other lawbreakers and malcontents. That way they could inflict on others of like mind and actions the expense...not on us. Do you think your neighborhood school could have used the $180,000 and put it to better use for the good of the community? If you recall, I said that the fenced in area would have a two-way door whereas those that would choose a lifestyle that would benefit the greater society as a whole could go rejoin their community and contribute...not take. Again, my hat is off to your boy for making some changes in his life and choosing a career that may benefit others.
As to your views (and the Polecat's) on my opinions, values, and thoughts....I could really care less. I don't think I would have anything in common with you or the Polecat as you both reject differing opinions and usually respond with personal insults and outright attacks. Fine open minded folks you are. Now if only you could incorporate within your responses the mind set you state you have.
I cannot believe you said that you were sorry that I didn't use drugs as then I would have an excuse for spouting my statements. Are you saying that using drugs causes one to be stupid? Does one have to be brain dead to have an opinion? In your case, I guess the answer is quite clear! I could, but will not counter with the thought that you and the Polecat suffer from constant flashbacks just as your fingers hit the keyboard to post your thoughts. If you believe that not using or never have used drugs is a bad thing I pity the fool that puts any value in any of what you say. I take from your statement that current or past drug usage is an excuse for stupid behavior? Is that what you're saying? If so, go look in the mirror and consider C. Franklin on the coast has a point in her beliefs about drug usage and stupid behavior.
All the best from the coast (Oregon that is), C. Franklin
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Troy H - 01:15pm Apr 18, 2004 (45.1.1.1)
www.glass-gardens.com
Grow up Franklin
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Julie R. - 06:09pm Apr 18, 2004 (45.1.1.2)
YOU IMBECILE!!
Not once have I said that people who don't think like I do are ignorant or stupid!! How dare you say that. Get out of Iowa you lying little prude!! If my son had been placed on your God forsaken little compound when would he have gotten the chance to improve his life the way he has! Once again I say-GET OUT OF IOWA-WHAT HAPPENED HAVE THEY RUN YOU OFF THE WEST COAST? You are the most self-centered, pathetic excuse for a "human" being I have ever met. Like Troy says, Grow the Hell up, why don't you go away until you do? You lie, you twist, and you make absolutely NO sense. Yes, I do believe you WERE run off from the west coast posting areas. How pathetic that you have to come all the way to Iowa to spread your venom.
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C. Franklin - 05:19pm Apr 20, 2004 (45.1.1.2.1)
Helen of Troy
I'm just going to start calling you Helen. First of all I lived 3/4's of my life in Iowa. I have family, friends and property in Iowa. We have never met. Just for you I will lower my standards and talk like a bar brawling trollop...of which I am sure you can identify. The answer to your question...don't raise a child that would steal a car and then become a fugitive. Where were you during your child's formative years? Do you want to get personal? Just for you I will continue. You stated that your child is inproving his life, you said he wants to work with troubled children. Is he taking along with him the experience of a loving doting parent or the memories of a drug soaked mother? Do you still want to get personal? Julie I could continue with a verbal barrage but find this tact with you boring and amateur and really beneath me. But with your troubled and weak mind, I thought maybe you might be able to understand. You are such a shallow and misguided soul that you cannot even acknowledge my question to you on diversity. Where do your feelings on diversity really show up? Unless and until you can grow up, gather your wits, turn your back on ignorance and open up with answers, consider yourself the one and only member of the Troy fan club....also known as Polecats are Us.... All the best from the Coast, C.Franklin
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W. D. Hunter - 11:33pm Apr 20, 2004 (45.1.1.2.1.1)
"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie
Troy fan club
C. Franklin,
We do have something in common. I am a fan of Troy's posting's too! He seems to have a sharp mind and a quick wit.
My personal feelings on diversity is that life would be very vanilla if we did not have some diversity. I love Chocolate, Caramel, Marshmallow, Strawberry, Blueberry, Baskin's Robins 31 flavor's! I have the belly to prove that statement. It is completely bought and paid for by my earnings. Nothing was given to me. I had to go to work for the past 24 years and to make a living. I started my career at the Des Moines Register as a "carrier" when I was eleven years old. I loved collecting for my accounts. I realized that some of those folks looked forward to being collected from every two weeks. I got immediate feedback as to whether or not I was doing a "good" job or an "excellent" job. My costumers loved me. When I left the service of the Des Moines Register; I had effectively merged four other carriers routes into my own. I had a good and loyal base of costumers. I did face competition from the Tribune or the Sioux City paper; however, many of my customer's relied upon me to bring them the news first thing in the morning. I made a nice size pot of money to help put me through college. It taught me to be independent. I can make my own opinion's known to everyone in this Forum! I have not seen a great deal of positive information or opinion come from C. Franklin from the Coast. I wish I could say that I was a member of that fan club. I can't!
This is just my HUMBLE OPINION and not a statement of fact! Please do not rely solely upon my opinion! Do not rely upon C. Franklin's opinion or even the opinion of Troy H.!!! Do your own homework and draw your own opinion of the facts as you seem to understand them. We may all differ in our points of view. That is the best part of diversity. I do not have to completely agree with everything Troy H. writes! I do not have to completely agree with what Shawn P writes in the Forum's! I can have an opinion of each based upon what I have seen shared. Some are more generous with their ability to share and some are not as generous. I will NEVER tell you what to think, do or say. You should be adult enough to handle yourself without my guidance.
Thanks for sharing!
W. D. H.
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Julie R. - 08:44am Apr 21, 2004 (45.1.1.2.1.2)
You pathetic witch
You ask where I was when my son was growing up? I was doing my very best to keep him in school, working with the schools, AEA, and anybody else I could to try and figure out the best plan for a child (with such severe ADHD that he was on___The hell with you, I don't owe you an explanation. I know the award I got from the teachers in my son's school. I do not need to explain myself to likes of you! You will never get a rise out of me again. From now on I will laugh at your stupid posts no matter how low you choose to hit. You have no idea what kind of person I am--But you've laid yourself wide open. Which is no surprise.
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kid dyn-o-mite
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Posted on: Apr. 27 2004,4:33 am |
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continued...
Julie R., Troy, W.D.
It's your story you can tell it anyway you want to. From the Oregon Coast,C. Franklin
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Troy H - 05:54pm Apr 22, 2004 (45.1.1.2.1.2.1.1)
www.glass-gardens.com
In other words, follow your example
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C. Franklin - 11:33am Apr 26, 2004 (45.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1)
Troy
Your intellect is showing; as it turns out there's not much there at all to see. I see that in your life, growth is a difficult chore. Wait, you seem to believe that you already know everything about everything....my bad. Now here's a quarter, go call ALL of your good friends that look up to your superior and unquestioned knowledge of life and it's trials. Ooops, shouldn't have used the word trials....again, my bad.
All the best from the Coast. C. Franklin
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Troy H - 07:54pm Apr 26, 2004 (45.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.1)
www.glass-gardens.com
Grow up child
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C. Franklin - 08:13pm Apr 26, 2004 (45.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.1.1)
Troy.....you are so bright!!!
Hey Troy. You have helped alot to clarify my argument. Too much pot and alcohol use result in arrested development (ooops, used arrested...sorry). You're argument to change marijuana laws to make the substance legal falls on deaf ears. All you can say is Grow Up. I believe that this is a symptom of either arrested (ooops) development, shallow personality, no knowledge of issues, false self importance, a failed life, poor communications skills, a person that toked just a little bit too much, drank his liver to oblivion, or is just a pure a-- ho--. Which are you? All the best from the Coast, C.Franklin
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Rick Langel - 08:44pm Apr 26, 2004 (45.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1)
"If you don't like Kerry's views wait a week"
You have helped alot to clarify my argument. Too much pot and alcohol use result in arrested development (ooops, used arrested...sorry).
Your argument has no merit whatsoever. The first regular pot smoker I ever met now has 2 masters degrees, one in math and the other in physics. He's well on his way to his doctorate in physics. There is absolutely no evidence to support your claims. The only thing you have to support your claims are your prejudices.
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Troy H - 12:44pm Apr 21, 2004 (45.1.1.2.1.3)
www.glass-gardens.com
I love it when people ultimately show the true nature of their souls and what is revealed doesn't surpise anyone.
Grow up little girl.
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Julie R. - 01:08pm Apr 10, 2004 (45.2)
I forgot something
Quit watching "Forest Gump" all the time! I sure hope you like the desert! How dare you comment on someone's sexuality, and what if he was, would that make a difference? Would that make him some sort of leper, less of a person, different, headed to one of your riduculous islands? Here comes that small, narrow-mindedness again. Before you post again, have someone else proofread what you've written before you hit the "ok" button.
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continued...
www.glass-gardens.com
Troy...quite some time...uh, maybe noon today?
Care to place a wager on that? Didn't think so.
And you sir are sooooooooo wrong. I am not an arrogant right wing wacko....nor do I subscribe to any thoughts that I am above other people
Gee, wouldn't know it from reading your posts.
I just know stupid when I correspond with him on this forum
You know stupid only because it's a condition you suffer from apparently.
You accuse others of being wacko when they do not accept your points of view... speaking of arrogant, sir you win the award
No, I accuse them of being whackos when their views are based more on personal biases and arrogance with little or no basis in fact, which pretty much sums you up.
I have said that using drugs is just plain stupid....and you have....I rest my case
And that would be nothing more than opinion of course with little basis in fact, at least in the context of casual use of marijuana, which for the most part is what marijuana users engage in.
Stupid is as stupid does kind sir
Then I am so glad there aren't more people who do as you do.
I have said that those that do stupid things should be welcomed to a big wasteland out in the desert where like minded people can indulge in their wildest whims....just asking that they take their stupid behaviors away from the main stream of society that has some pretty well tested views of right and wrong
Wow, hope you like living in the desert. Can I help you find a nice little shack to live in?
In fact, I welcome the opportunity to walk through life without having to contend with people who do stupid illegal things, nor those that support those stupid behaviors
You mean like the idots who go blasting down the road in their SUVs in a school zone with a bumber sticker that says "proud parent of a DARE student" ? What do you drive? Got any bumper stickers in it?
Someone smoking a joint in the privacy of their own home that they grew themselves is not harming you, nor anyone else. That's a fact, therefore by trying to say it does porves your arrogance and desire to conform people to what you feel is acceptable without any real basis for needing to do so.
A gay couple living in a commited relationship is not harming you, but you don't want that either. But your neighbor is probably getting some on the side at the office and of course you wouldn't think to knock on their door and tell them to get out of your neighborhood would you.
Yet, I support their right to choose to do same at their leisure, but away from people who don't condone criminal and stupid behavior
No you don't. Don't lie. It only indicts your character further.
Uh, Troy, are you gay or something?
Don't think so, are you the woman your neighbor is getting some on the side with?
Heck, you have spouted your views all over this forum, might as well take this chance to come out if you're so inclinded
And you may do well to quit giving it to your neighbor and sell it on the street.
Am wondering when you made such an arrogant and wacko statement about my Dutch relatives why you wouldn't have a question or comment for my Great Aunt?
Why would I need to ask your relatives anything when I get the facts from numerous sources? There was nothing arrogant about it, I prefer to deal with facts, and I already have them.
You made a brash accusation and wonder where the sand is to follow up your statements?
Look it up. I did, do try to follow through.
Uh, maybe you're wrong and you know it....that's a guess on my part
Pretty weak one, I rarely make statements I don't believe are true and I don't believe a thing is true unless I've seen the evidence of it. Which is why I'm confident I have you pegged correctly and you have yet to show anything that would cause me to change my mind.
Spout away Troy, the light is shining on you now
I think's it pretty obvious you're the only one here who cares if the light is shining on them. Are you related to Tammy Faye by chance? You seem a lot like her.
Your views on most of what I have read of yours on this forum are a little out of the main stream of intelligent thought
Your's apperently aren't even close to the river bank.
now it's your turn to glow in the admiration of others
Sorry, I don't need to feel admired like you.
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C. Franklin - 12:46pm Feb 11, 2004 (47.)
The sound of....
Hey Troy.
What I am now hearing from you are the rantings and growlings of a treed polecat! Enjoy your day.
All the best from the Coast...C. Franklin
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Julie R. - 08:12pm Feb 11, 2004 (48.)
Pot
It's been proven time and again that pot (among regular users) is a stepping stone to harder drugs. That's all I will say about that. C. Franklin, I think you are the most small, narrow-minded person I have ever heard speak when they open their mouths in my entire life. If things aren't what you think they should be in your little glass house then obviously it must be wrong. Open your eyes, shut your mouth, and look at the real world for a change! You are beyond belief. You attack everyone on this forum if they don't meet your approval or your so-called standards. My heavens what a boring place this world would be if it was the way you wanted it to be like. What happened to diversity?? Grow up young lady-and I definitely use that term lightly when I refer to you!
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C. Franklin - 08:59pm Feb 11, 2004 (49.)
Hey Julie
Hi Julie.
Look back and read who first made personal attacks. Then again, remove your foot and move on. I gave my opinion on a number of subjects and wham....the personal stuff from you and the treed polecat started. I gave my opinion on behaviors, not a specific opinion on you or the polecat until attacked. The polecat was even attacking my relatives. Am I not entitled to an opinion that somehow doesn't seem to meet your and the polecat's agenda? You and the polecat seem to think I do the attacking. Maybe it's an issue of clarity that won't be resolved...ya think?
Hey, the only person who has to meet my standards is me. The world would may be boring with my standards, but would be safe from crumbums who bring down the rest of society and serve as the proverbial boil on the butt.
A diverse society as I am guessing you would have it would include all the reprobates... no thanks.
You're right, I may be no longer a young lady, but I don't have the number of miles on the mind and body as most of my vintage. I have stayed clean and without worry and am strong in my belief for I share it without a past agenda that I need now somehow to justify.
Hey I can call him polecat after he basically called me a wh--e...
All the best from the coast, C. Franklin
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Julie R. - 01:39pm Apr 10, 2004 (49.1)
Hey, C.
I think Troy calls them as he sees them. Like I said earlier, You live in California, Why are you posting in Iowa? Haven't you got the idea YET that you're not welcome here. You are way to, shall I say it again? You are PREJUDICED against everyone who isn't just like you. What on earth is wrong with you? How can you all anyone a reprobate? You should truly be ashamed of yourself. That, I would assume include my son. He spent 6 1/2 yrs, in prison for stealing a car and escaping from county jail. And the, oh my God, after he got out, he go revoked for not contacting his probation officer for 2 months. Back to jail for 5 weeks. Well, the little jailbird starts school on the 12th to become a youth probation officer. He'll be going to school from 8am-12pm, working 6 days a week from 1pm-9:30pm. I don't know what the little reprobate is thinking! Maybe improving his life? May there's hope? WHEW!!!!Good thing we didn't send him out to that desert to soon we may have lost an absolutely wonderful man to work with troubled kids. And who better to help try and get troubled kids straightened out? C. Franklin, either open your eyes, or stay in California--PLEASE
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W. D. Hunter - 05:55am Feb 12, 2004 (50.)
"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie
"Youthful Indiscretion"
Julie,
Thanks for reading and contributing to this important discussion. I understand where you are coming from. I will only speak of MY personal experience. I know of a few people {and I am one of them} that tried pot when we were in college.
I like to think of it like Henry Hyde does as a "Youthful Indiscretion". I did not advance to harder drugs.
Does that mean that other won't advance to harder drugs as well?
I am not sure. I tend to believe in hard scientific data. And if the hard scientific data indicates as you posted that it does lead to further drug abuse; then I tend to be even more grateful that the experience did nothing more or less then what drinking alcohol did for me. (Actually I had to drink a larger quantity of alcohol to get to a state of inebriation). That being what it may; I was blessed not to have either of those "addictions" [alcohol or drugs] take root into my life.
I agree with you about diversity and accept that God (our creator) did put a varitable buffet in our lives. I have tried many things. I agree with old saying "Moderation in all things".
Thank you for sharing!
W. D. H.
Julie R. writes:
"Pot
It's been proven time and again that pot (among regular users) is a stepping stone to harder drugs. That's all I will say about that. C. Franklin, I think you are the most small, narrow-minded person I have ever heard speak when they open their mouths in my entire life. If things aren't what you think they should be in your little glass house then obviously it must be wrong. Open your eyes, shut your mouth, and look at the real world for a change! You are beyond belief. You attack everyone on this forum if they don't meet your approval or your so-called standards. My heavens what a boring place this world would be if it was the way you wanted it to be like. What happened to diversity?? Grow up young lady-and I definitely use that term lightly when I refer to you!"
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Julie R. - 01:41pm Apr 10, 2004 (50.1)
W.D.H.
I'm talking about the heavy pot user, not the casual user. I thought I had explained that, sorry.
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W. D. Hunter - 07:44pm Apr 10, 2004 (50.1.1)
"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie
I'm talking about the heavy pot user, not the casual user. I thought I had explained that, sorry.
Julie R.
I agree with you regarding a heavy drug user! Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for Sharing!
W. D. H.
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continued...
Carl E. Olsen - 08:53am Feb 12, 2004 (51.)
Troy doesn't value incremental change
The fact that the Iowa Democratic Party platform says drug abuse is not a crime doesn't not mean that the rest of the party is listening to the platform. The issue is really quite simple. Would you prefer the platform call it a crime? I work on this issue constantly, and any little incremental change I see is a victory to me. Besides spouting off in this forum, what are you doing to bring about change?
I had to fight to get that language into the Iowa Democratic Party platform. Four years ago, it was a Des Moines heart surgeon who helped me get and keep that language in the platform. I noticed he was supporting Howard Dean for president and Howard Dean says drug abuse is a health issue and not a criminal behavior, so these are a few of the more enlightened Democrats. John Kerry says he will stop the federal raids on California medical marijuana patients. Dennis Kucinich supports decriminalization of marijuana.
Another question for you - how soon do you see the Republican Party putting this kind of languange into one of their platforms? I support Democrats because they are better than Republicans on the issues that matter most to me, and the third parties have no chance of getting the Repulicans out of office.
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Troy H - 08:19am Mar 31, 2004 (51.1)
www.glass-gardens.com
The problem with incremental change Carl, is that it has resulted in a wavering back and forth of laws and punishment, and in reality has done little to advance the issue beyond shifting the "sentence" even a casual user serves from a jail cell to a treatment center and virtually no progress has been made in recogonizing that use does not inherently equate to abuse. And I've seen little from any party member, left or right to indicate it will ever progress to that point.
Quite frankly, I see the democrats catering to the treatment industry and the republicans catering to law enforcement, and a whole lot of decent, hard working Americans stuck in the middle, as usual.
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Carl E. Olsen - 09:06am Feb 12, 2004 (52.)
Hi Julie
I advanced from marijuana to harder drugs, so I have the credentials to weigh in on this issue. I started using marijuana in 1968 and started using harder drugs in 1970. I stopped using harder drugs in 1972 and stopped using marijuana in 1990. The question is: Why did marijuana lead me to harder drugs? In 1970, the federal government enacted the first federal criminal law against marijuana and marijuana became harder to find. Since marijuana was illegal, the same people who sold pot were usually selling harder drugs. I never had any interest in harder drugs until pot became hard to find. Once I started using harder drugs, I got addicted. That never happened with marijuana. I went to college in the late 1980s and graduated with a 4.0 grade point average while I was working full time and smoking pot every day. I quit smoking pot in 1990 because I was tired of being treated like a non-citizen. I quit cold turkey and it was easy compared to getting off harder drugs. Getting off harder drugs was very difficult and it took me years to recover. Smoking pot made that recovery a little easier. The government lied to me about the dangers of marijuana. That was another reason I tried harder drugs, because I couldn't trust the government to tell me the truth about drugs. I ended up addicted to methamphetamine in 1971 and 1972 and meth is one of the most addictive drugs I can imagine. Meth has to be one of the most harmful things you could put in your body. We need to get a reasonable drug policy that doesn't put marijuana in the the same catergory as heroin, which is a more restrictive category than crack cocaine or methamphetamine. Our drug policy makes alcohol so legal that I can find it on the grocery store shelf 3 inches off the floor where any baby can easily see it or touch it. If you think the drug laws make sense, you've got a problem worse than drug addiction.
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Julie R. - 11:52am Feb 12, 2004 (53.)
W.D .Hunter
You may have misunderstood me, sir. I wasn't talking about "casual users". I was talking about the pot smokers who smoked it day in, day out, day after day. They are the ones who are in danger of advancing to other, more dangerous drugs. Now, C. Franklin, I am DONE with you! There is absolutely no getting through to you. I can not believe you don't want a little diversity in your world. You must lead the most boring life. Get out of your little bubble, look around and see what a wonderful, diverse world we truly have. Good , bad, or indifferent our world is diverse, and it is here to stay-learn to enjoy it and you will be much more happy.
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W. D. Hunter - 01:48pm Feb 12, 2004 (54.)
"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie
Julie R.
Julie R.,
You made a good point and fine distinction. I don't think my level of smoking pot would ever have risen to the level of some of the people I met and considered my friends back in my days of college.
I, too, have serious concerns about smoking anything on a day in and day out basis. I admit that I do not smoke. I accept that some of my friends are addicted to cigarettes, pipe, cigar smoking. I have never been able to tolerate smoking on a regular basis. My spouse smoked when we first met. I am proud to say that is not the case today! I am very proud that monkey is off their back. I do sympathize for those that do not have the will, means or courage to quit. We all have our vices. My personal vice of choice is eating. I love good food. I am making better choices now that I have seen some research on the importance of diet and exercise in longevity.
Thank you for your clarification. I appreciate you opinion and that you have allowed that opinion to be shared with all of the reader's of this fine forum! Thanks!
W. D. H.
Julie R. Writes: "You may have misunderstood me, sir. I wasn't talking about "casual users". I was talking about the pot smokers who smoked it day in, day out, day after day. They are the ones who are in danger of advancing to other, more dangerous drugs. Now, C. Franklin, I am DONE with you! There is absolutely no getting through to you. I can not believe you don't want a little diversity in your world. You must lead the most boring life. Get out of your little bubble, look around and see what a wonderful, diverse world we truly have. Good , bad, or indifferent our world is diverse, and it is here to stay-learn to enjoy it and you will be much more happy. "
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Julie R. - 01:10pm Feb 17, 2004 (55.)
Carl.....
Carl-I have to disagree on your post about the addictive qualities of pot. When I was in treatment a young man came in whose only drug use was pot (I have a terrible time spelling marijuana?). When he came in I saw him go through withdrawl. They put nicotine patches on him, which is supposed to help the withdrawl symptoms of pot, I guess. Now, whether the withdrawl was physical or mental, I don't know-but, it was a terrible site to see none the less. What I'm trying to say is, pot must have some addictive qualities to it for that young man to go through what he did, mentally or physically it was withdrawl. He ended up not being able to handle it and leaving-just because of the pain of the withdrawl symptoms.
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Troy H - 08:27am Mar 31, 2004 (55.1)
www.glass-gardens.com
Julie, with all due respect, what you describe as "marijuana withdrawal goes against the bulk of clinical and anecdotal evidence. It is generally accepted that marijuana is not physically addictive but rather psychologically addictive, for those who have grown dependent on it at all.
I used it regularly for over 20 years and like Carl, decided to quit one day because of the opportunities it was denying me due to the governments attempt to create harm where none would have otherwise existed. I just walked away from it, no withdrawal, no pain, and went on about my business.
Getting off alcohol 20 years ago almost killed me.
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W. D. Hunter - 02:01pm Feb 17, 2004 (56.)
"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie
When I was in treatment a young man came in whose only drug use was pot
Julie R.
Thank you for participating and sharing your experiences. I think it gives each of us a little insight on how we each have arrived at our opinion. I still remember the movie "Refer Madness". It gave me a good chuckle. I know it was designed to scare young people into avoiding drug addiction. That being said, I applaud the effort.
I know some people can be addicted to odd things. My addiction of choice is Pepsi. Though, I do have great sympathy for anyone with a serious drug addiction. I have heard stories of people going through counseling several times before they "hit bottom" and finally saw that they were indeed powerless to the addiction. Their only escape was to quit taking the addictive substance. I know I had to go "cold turkey" on drinking pepsi. It has made a world of difference in how I felt since I was able to go "cold turkey". I do understand that not everyone is able to quit something they feel they can't live without. It is a rough road and until you "hit bottom"; you probably will never want to quit enough to find the motivation to make the necessary changes in your life to divorce yourself from the addictive substance. Thus is why I sympathize for the young man in your story.
It has to be frustrating to want to stop using a substance; but you are over all powerless to just walk away. God has blessed me with good genetics. I have my Father's ability to make a decision and stick with it until I am satisfied. Some people who know me understand where I get my stubborn tendencies. At times, it can be viewed as a curse and at time when dealing with an addiction I see that it can be a blessing.
Thanks for sharing!
W. D. H.
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Julie R. - 12:49pm Feb 18, 2004 (57.)
My addiction
My addiction is nicotine. The most Addictive substance known to man. I have tried to quit so many times to no avail. I have tried cold turkey, by that night me entire body hurt, no kidding. I suppose it was the poison leaving my system, that's all I can think of. I have, also tried patches, I couldn't even tell I had them on. The one vice I still have, the one I want to quit the most, and I have yet to find the trick. Any suggestions would be more than appreciated.
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continued...
W. D. Hunter - 08:28pm Feb 18, 2004 (58.)
"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie
That is a tough road to take.....but well worth it!
Julie,
I can appreciate the insidious nature of nicotine addiction. I have had several members of my family go down the same road. To quit an addiction is a tough road to take..... but well worth it!
It is my understanding that in the 12 step programs you have to hit bottom and you "gotta wanna" quit before you will be successful. I do appreciate that it is not as easy as changing your clothes. Changing an addiction can be literally hellish. No one gets a free pass from addictions. It is just that some of us have done the work to recognize what our addictions are and to take steps to correct that condition. Some people may not have looked for an addiction in their lives and that addiction could be something as simple as throwing a temper tantrum when certain conditions are right. Thus it can be extremely difficult to find the addiction and the conditions. The only thing that leaps to my mind is to find the stimulus response mechanism that triggers the desire for a cigarette. If you can break that habit; I feel you will be well along your way to giving it up for good. Usually if you can go six to eight weeks without the stimulus the response will be tougher to make the connection.
I wish we had an easy answer. Trust me.... know of a few other things I need to work on; but this forum is not the place to get the guidance and assistance we need to break our addictions. Just try to limit to one addiction at a time. If you can... learn a healthier habit in order to replace an unhealthy habit. Than try to step down with an even healthier habit in order to ease off the withdrawals.
Best wishes in your efforts! Thanks for sharing!
W. D. H.
Julie R. writes:
My addiction
My addiction is nicotine. The most Addictive substance known to man. I have tried to quit so many times to no avail. I have tried cold turkey, by that night me entire body hurt, no kidding. I suppose it was the poison leaving my system, that's all I can think of. I have, also tried patches, I couldn't even tell I had them on. The one vice I still have, the one I want to quit the most, and I have yet to find the trick. Any suggestions would be more than appreciated."
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Carl E. Olsen - 11:20pm Feb 18, 2004 (59.)
Addicted to pot and tobacco
I smoked both marijuana and tobacco for over twenty years. I stopped smoking marijuana in August of 1990 and I stopped smoking tobacco in September of 1990 - cold turkey. I haven't touched either of them since. I don't remember experiencing any withdrawal symptoms other than wanting a smoke. I still get the urge to smoke something. The only thing that stops me from smoking is that I already have enough expensive habits.
I was going to school and working full time when I quit smoking pot and tobacco. I was getting straight "A" grades and working full time before I quit smoking and continued to do the same after I quit. I can't say that constant pot and tobacco usage impaired my learning ability, nor can I say that withdrawal was especially disruptive.
I wonder if the person that you saw withdrawing from pot was also withdrawing from other illegal substances that get sold by unscrupulous pot dealers (such as methamphetamine). When you buy legal drugs, such as alcohol, you don't run into a whole slew of illegal substances at the same time (like I did). That's one of the reasons to separate pot from more dangerous drugs.
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Michelle Gregory - 12:02am Feb 19, 2004 (60.)
My grandma smoked cigarettes for about 30 years.
For as long as I could remember, at least during the last 7 years, she was trying to quit. She tried pills, going cold turkey, anything they had back then. I don't think they had patches in the early 80's. Nothing worked. Then one day, she saw an ad in the paper for hypnosis to stop smoking. It was a group session on stopping smoking, followed by a session on weight loss afterwards. She didn't gain nearly as much weight as she did during other attempts to stop, and she hasn't had a cigarette ever since that day. It's been about 15 years since she last smoked.
I'm not saying that hypnosis will work for everyone, and yes, you really have to want to quit. You also can't allow yourself to see anything having to do with smoking, tobacco, or cigarrettes in the month after your session, and especially during the first 24 hours after your session. You are most vulnerable to suggestion in the first 24 hours after being hypnotized. It's costly, but the benefits are priceless. My grandma probably would have emphysema by now had she not quit, and she's only 63. I've seen what it does to people, and it's not pretty. It makes me sad to see them suffer, especially when they tell you through the coughing and wheezing that they want to be wheeled outside so they can have a smoke.
I hope that you can find the courage and strength to quit, Julie.
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Julie R. - 12:00pm Feb 19, 2004 (61.)
Re:Addiction
I truly appreciate all of your help on my trying to quit these d**m smokes. But, Michelle, I think I'm going to save my $ and go to a hypnotist. Also, Carl, thinking about it, you are probably right about that kid in xment. He had to be on something other than pot, didn't he? I am just SO gullible, always have been, probably always will be (I'm not nearly as bad as I used to be). Thanks everyone, you guys are not nearly as mean as you sound sometimes.
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W. D. Hunter - 12:25pm Feb 19, 2004 (62.)
"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie
Julie R. THANKS for sharing!
Julie R.,
I very much appreciate the rough road ahead. Best wishes and God's strength in over coming your addiction! You will be in my prayer's.
W. D. H.
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Julie R. - 09:33am Feb 20, 2004 (63.)
W.DH.
Thank you for the prayers W.D., and I just wanted to say that you are the most kindhearted, most polite person I have yet to meet, not only on these Forums, but in the general public as well. You are truly a breath of fresh air with your politeness and complete care in trying not to offend anyone when voicing your opinion. May my prayers be with YOU! We don't even know your first name.
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Rick Langel - 09:39am Feb 20, 2004 (64.)
"If you don't like Kerry's views wait a week"
He's so polite that he refuses to answer questions that are asked of him. He's so polite that he can't deal well with being shown to be a liar or having his beliefs shown to be wrong.
Why should we care about not wanting to offend anyone? Are we that over-sensitive as a society that we can't say anything that might tick another person off? Sometimes reality is harsh, you simply have to learn to deal with it.
And we do know Warren's name, since Warren also got a letter published in the Register.
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W. D. Hunter - 10:39am Feb 20, 2004 (65.)
"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie
Sticks and Stones.....
I am always amazed at the toll that the idiot savant has to pay.
He pays a great penalty for his extra-ordinary talent.
Just food for thought!
W. D. H.
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Julie R. - 08:52pm Feb 20, 2004 (66.)
Do you have to fight with everyone?
Rick-When did Warren not answer a question? And, why does he irritate you so much? Maybe because you can't get a rise out of him? Maybe because he won't stoop to your level? Why can't you stop and leave him alone? What's your problem any way? You jumped right on my post.
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W. D. Hunter - 09:08pm Feb 20, 2004 (67.)
"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie
Do you have to fight with everyone?
Julie,
I have wondered the same questions. I think of it as his loss. I am confident that Rick is a relatively nice enough person "if" he lets you get to know him. I did wonder why he asked who "screeched" at you was an implication that he had not turned his negative energy towards you, yet..... I am an acquired taste. I know for a fact that my personality does not mesh well with other strong personality types. Again, I view it as his loss. I have attempted to answer each of his inquiries honestly and to the best of my abilities. He chooses not to accept my answers and therefore would rather try to chase off any dissenting opinions that may conflict with his narrow view of this world.
Thank you for your kind thoughts and words! I very much appreciate it when you share your point of view with the rest of the adults in the Des Moines Register's Readers Forum.
W. D. H.
Julie R. writes:
"Rick-When did Warren not answer a question? And, why does he irritate you so much? Maybe because you can't get a rise out of him? Maybe because he won't stoop to your level? Why can't you stop and leave him alone? What's your problem any way? You jumped right on my post."
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