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| Post Number: 11
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cpu_slave 
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Jun. 16 2004,5:18 pm |
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| Quote | | Not one rebuttal to the last post? |
I have already addressed most of the points already- do you want me to go over them again? You really must be bored.
| Quote | | What ABOUT the missiles? |
The missiles that were destroyed? What? You don’t think that parts of them can show up? that they somehow mysteriously vanish completely?
You want to discuss Chenny’s business dealings with Iraq during the ‘sanction period’? Fine- let’s open that box. Dresser corp (which was a subsidiary of Halliburton while he was CEO) sold Saddam 73 million worth of oil well equipment. But the only one who had evidence of it ,who would prove it, was Chalabi. He got it when his people raided Saddam's HQ just after the war started. And now the US has it because they raided Chalabi's place a month or so ago when the crap hit the fan with him. They said it was because of him leaking info to Iran but it was because he was leaking info about those who broke sanctions i.e. the Oil for Food /UN debacle.
| Quote | | the libs refusal to believe that the WMDs might actually have been moved |
Moved exactly where Jim? We had satellites watching the borders we could not actually put our troops on- so if saddam ‘moved’ anything out of Iraq we would have *proof*-
| Quote | | What about appearance of gas shells--items that Saddam says he destroyed- |
Old shells with decayed residue? Those shells? Perhaps they were simply overlooked? Still, wasn’t this ‘WMD’ supposed to be stockpiled everywhere? So why can’t we find it?
| Quote | | We can't even talk about Clinton |
Jim- if you want to start a discussion about Clinton, start another thread. Instead, in this thread you brought up Clinton out of the blue- in comparison to threats. You could have easily made a better comparison to Bush Sr. but the ‘right’ in you wouldn’t allow it. This thread is about WMD and the claims *this* administration made, not the former. I know you neo-cons love to throw out ‘Clinton’ every time you get the chance, but it’s getting really old. Is it too much to ask that you at least try and defend something on it’s own merit without having to point to Clinton and bring up blow-jobs- IS- etc? Sure, some of his policies are with us today- but WMD in Iraq was not one of them. If you are looking for someone to blame saddam on, you could start with Rumsfeld, Reagan, and Bush Sr. They are the ones that put him in power, backed the war with Iraq and supplied him with all those chemical weapons. Yet you will still try and put the blame on Clinton…
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An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
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| Post Number: 12
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irisheyes
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 3040
Joined: Oct. 2003
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Posted on: Jun. 16 2004,6:27 pm |
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| Quote (cpu_slave @ June 16 2004,5:18:pm) | This thread is about WMD and the claims *this* administration made, not the former.
If you are looking for someone to blame saddam on, you could start with Rumsfeld, Reagan, and Bush Sr. |
I thought you don't want former administrations brought up? Looking at several different threads, the trend has been that bashing Clinton is a very touchy subject for some. Yet as long as the former President being blamed is a Republican (Reagan, & Bush Sr. in this example) it's fair game.
It doesn't make any difference to me whether someone bashes Reagan, Bush Sr. or Jr., so why does Clinton have the Golden pass with many liberals?
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You know it's going to be a bad day when you cross thread the cap on the toothpaste.
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| Post Number: 13
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Jun. 16 2004,8:04 pm |
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| Quote | | defend something on it’s own merit without having to point to Clinton and bring up blow-jobs- |
Can you find me one instance where I've brought up the subject? All of my posts have been relative to lying to Congress, lying to the people, admitted perjury, etc. There is no defense for these charges--Clinton copped a plea on his final day in office to avoid indictment the following day, when he would have been a private citizen, and no longer exempt. Despite all of the Democratic faithful echoing the party line "It's all about Sex", I don't recall a single one of the indictments for his shameful sexual behavior. Methinks is is a Freudian make that Pavlovian slip--the minute somebody brings up Clinton, the auto-response is "It's all about Sex!" 
Regarding the moving of the WMD's | Quote | | Moved exactly where Jim? We had satellites watching the borders we could not actually put our troops on- so if saddam ‘moved’ anything out of Iraq we would have *proof*- |
I realize that there can NEVER be enough proof for a Bush-basher, but try this site--it even has a map. Just so it can't be construed as an "unauthoritave source", there are also links to CNN, the London Daily Telegraph, Fox News, Newsmax, and the Wall Street Journal. The stories talk about the proposed chemical bomb planned to explode in Jordan, which would have killed 80,000 people (no WEAPONS of MASS DESTRUCTION, here!) (sarcasm) The planner trained in Iraq under Al Zarcowi (nope, no terrorist here!). The question--WHERE did the "friendly material" (the NON-WMDs) come from? Through Syria. Where did they get them? Do they have a production capability of their own?
http://deneb.bu.edu/essays/wmdsyria/
| Quote | You want to discuss Chenny’s business dealings with Iraq during the ‘sanction period’? Fine- let’s open that box. Dresser corp (which was a subsidiary of Halliburton while he was CEO) sold Saddam 73 million worth of oil well equipment. But the only one who had evidence of it ,who would prove it, was Chalabi. He got it when his people raided Saddam's HQ just after the war started. And now the US has it because they raided Chalabi's place a month or so ago when the crap hit the fan with him. They said it was because of him leaking info to Iran but it was because he was leaking info about those who broke sanctions i.e. the Oil for Food /UN debacle.
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You had all the right words, just didn't finish connecting the dots. I highlighted the operable words. "Desser sold oil well equipment to Iraq for use in the Oil for Food/UN debacle" The difference? Desser sold legal equipment to Iraq--not proscribed (forbidden) by UN mandates--so that Iraq could "trade oil for food". There is no way Saddam could make other use of that material. France, Germany, and Russia, however, sold munitions, fermenters, missle parts, airplanes, etc. to Iraq--in contravention of the UN sanctions that they had signed. The largest bribery scandal in the history of the world--and Goofy Anus (Kofi Annan) from the UN is holding up the inquiry--3 months, already--claiming "we don't have enough money to investigate it in depth". Perhaps it has to do with the fact that his son is the president of a Panamanian company that received some of the kickbacks?
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 14
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cpu_slave
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Jun. 17 2004,9:10 am |
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| Quote | | I thought you don't want former administrations brought up? Looking at several different threads, the trend has been that bashing Clinton is a very touchy subject for some. Yet as long as the former President being blamed is a Republican (Reagan, & Bush Sr. in this example) it's fair game. |
I don’t have a problem when someone brings up past administrations with a relevant connection, but let’s face it, many times Clinton is brought up needlessly. It’s getting to be if the right is loosing an argument, they come back with ‘well clinton got a blow-job’ , ‘clinton and the meaning of ‘is’’ which really has nothing to do with the argument at hand. I guess if we can’t change that, then the level of these discussions is going to rapidly deteriorate with all the ‘bushisms’ we can also throw in for no reason other than to just do so.
| Quote | | the minute somebody brings up Clinton, the auto-response is "It's all about Sex!" |
we can argue this in another thread if you would like, because I seen the entire episode as a witch hunt. I admit you did not bring up the blow-job, but you have to admit that the lies and such were connected to this one incident. It would be akin to bringing up ‘OJ being free is an injustice’ but denying that you even brought up the subject of him being a killer. See what I am getting at here?
| Quote | | Through Syria. Where did they get them? |
There is a terrorist training ground if there ever was one. So what are you saying, that Iraq is the only place in the area that can make WMD? If so, than why are we having such a problem with Iran now?
| Quote | | Desser sold legal equipment to Iraq--not proscribed |
Then why are they denying it and trying to hide it? Something doesn’t smell right… but go ahead and put your blinders back on just the same...
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An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
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| Post Number: 15
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Jun. 17 2004,11:59 am |
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| Quote | | I admit you did not bring up the blow-job, but you have to admit that the lies and such were connected to this one incident. |
That's the whole point--Clinton CHOSE to lie, when he didn't even HAVE to. If it truly was "just about sex"--he would have been beat up a bit in the press, he would have been denounced in the well of the Senate, and that would have been it. As it was, he showed his lack of character by going into attack mode--asking Betty Currie to lie for him ("you were with me all the time, right?"), attacking the veracity of the women that accused him ("drag a $100 bill through a trailer park, no telling what you'll get"), he lied to Hillary, who defended him on national TV, he lied to the television cameras and to us (pointing his finger, "I never had sex with that woman Not once" (OK, that part was true, it was MULTIPLE TIMES ), He lied to the Special Prosecutor, he lied to Congress.
Never forget, it was the LAST TWO items that he would have been indicted for, but instead COPPED A PLEA ON HIS LAST DAY IN OFFICE. Not one charge of "having sex in the oval office".
| Quote | | There is a terrorist training ground if there ever was one. So what are you saying, that Iraq is the only place in the area that can make WMD? |
That's the whole point of the article link I provided--they caught the guys trying to explode the bio-bomb in Jordan--and they said it came from materials moved from Iraq. From DebkaFiles, as reported in Worldnetdaily | Quote | The convoys were spotted by U.S. satellites in early 2003, but the contents of the WMD convoys from Iraq to Syria were not confirmed.
Confirmation later came from Iraqi scientists and technicians questioned by a U.S. team that was searching for Saddam's conventional weapons. But all they knew was the convoys were heading west to Syria.
But over the last few months, U.S. intelligence managed to track the Iraqi WMD convoy to Lebanon's Bekaa Valley.
Through the use of satellites, electronic monitoring and human intelligence, the intelligence community has determined that much, if not all, of Iraq's biological and chemical weapons assets are being protected by Syria, with Iranian help, in the Bekaa Valley.
The Syrians received word from Saddam Hussein in late 2002 that the Iraqi WMD would be arriving and Syrian army engineering units began digging huge trenches in the Bekaa Valley.
Saddam paid more than $30 million in cash for Syria to build the pits, acquire the Iraqi WMD and conceal them.
At first, U.S. intelligence thought Iraqi WMD was stored in northern Syria. But in February 2003 a Syrian defector told U.S. intelligence the WMD was buried in or around three Syrian Air Force installations.
But intelligence sources said the Syrians kept dual-use nuclear components for themselves while transferring the more incriminating material to Lebanon.
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Since then, big explosion in one of the Syrian installations--reported by some as a missile explosion.
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 16
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Jun. 17 2004,2:15 pm |
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NOT for cpu-slave--but for anybody else reading. CPU_slave and I have been "arguing" (but not "convincing" each other!  )about a multitude of topics--but they aren't rancorous--just friendly "discussion". I've had the same (shall we call it "strident"?) discussions with Liberal--I respect him, have met with him, and feel I can call him my friend. CPU_slave and I have also PMd each other several times, and I have mentioned the way that he courteously defends his WRONG positions. I have always said that the value of this Forum is not in the debate, but in the formulation of our OWN thoughts--an appraisal of what we really believe. I ran across this on "I love Jet Noise" (subtitled "The sound of Freedom--or one of us being wrong") | Quote | This is why campus "tolerance" movements and speech codes are so dangerous. Often one doesn't know why a line of reasoning is wrong until it is questioned, explored, and exposed. This is why I used to enjoy writing papers - it wasn't so much the process of writing that I enjoyed. But when I was done, I had worked out my position on a topic that interested me (and if it didn't interest me, I refused to write about it - much to my teachers' annoyance). Often, especially when I was younger, I began a paper with one topic sentence and in working through the logic of the argument, would arrive at a different conclusion by the end of the paper. The process was fascinating to me.
Other times in class discussions, a question was posed and I had no idea what the answer was until another student advanced an idea that was obviously wrong. Suddenly, on hearing the wrong answer, the correct answer would leap into my mind as if by magic. |
That sums up my position exactly--So--I should say "THANK YOU, LIBERAL & CPU_SLAVE, for the WRONG answers"--you help me compose my thoughts! (sarcasm). I'm leaving for those trips to the Arctic I mentioned a few weeks ago (they have been delayed for two weeks, because there was still two feet of ice on the lakes as of last week), and will have only a couple of days home until mid-July. No computer access--telephone by satphone only--Lots of big fish, billions of bugs, (let's see, which is worse, pesky, non-thinking liberals, or pesky, non-thinking bugs?) and not a liberal around (even in Canada!) for well over 150 miles (If you think we have a dislike for Washington, you should spend some time in the Western Provinces and NW Territories, and see what they think of THEIR government--socialized medicine, gun control, outrageous taxes, etc.!)
See you in a few weeks--by that time, Mr. Kerry should have self-destructed!
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 17
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farouk
Group: Members
Posts: 157
Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 18 2004,8:11 am |
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Isn't it interesting the miles of crap we will consume to be able to support our beliefs. I guess that I am no different. I believe that Bush wanted to go into Iraq to avenge his family honor. Chenney wanted the war as part of his secret energy deal.
Oh say does anyone know what Chenney's smerk is about. Is it about the sh!t kickn we just took or about the one he is going to let us have.
Oh well, I just wanted to come in as say that I was not buying any of this WMD stuff today.
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| Post Number: 18
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cpu_slave
Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Jun. 18 2004,10:05 am |
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| Quote | From UN Report-
…An example is the discovery by Danish troops of 120-mm mortars in southern Iraq in January, reported in the media as possibly containing a blistering chemical-weapons agent. A statement was later made by the Danish Army to the effect that the laboratory test results on the 120-mm mortars had been negative for the presence of chemical weaons agents. |
and the rest of the report is also an interesting read, basically stating what I already knew- Iraq had NO WMD for the past several YEARS! Do you think the reason that other nations did not join shrubs ‘coalition’ is because they had access to this information and could see the truth for themselves? Yet the neo-cons would still have you believe that the WMD are there, and that the countries that refused to go along with this whole thing did so because they were supporting saddam. More of that ‘if you are not with us you’re against us’ rhetoric.
This whole episode would be like after Pearl Harbor, we attacked Scotland because of the Loch Ness Monster…
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An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it.-James A. Michener
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.-Albert Einstein
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from wise men.- Marcus Cato
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| Post Number: 19
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MADDOG
Group: Moderator
Posts: 7821
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Jul. 02 2004,12:23 pm |
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Here's a startling find. From today's BBC NEWS: | Quote | Troops 'foil Iraq nerve gas bid'
The gas is said to be five times deadlier than sarin
Poland's Defence Ministry says its troops in Iraq have thwarted an attempt by militants to buy a quantity of warheads containing nerve agents.
The country's military intelligence chief said troops had increased efforts to find the weapons when told they were on the market for about $5,000 each.
Gen Marek Dukaczewski was commenting on last month's recovery of 17 warheads for a 1980s Soviet-era rocket system.
Tests indicate some warheads contain cyclosarin, more powerful than sarin.
Believed to have been used by Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war
Gen Dukaczewski said an attack using such weapons was hard to imagine.
The former Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein produced cyclosarin in the 1980s to fight Iran but was bound by UN resolutions following the 1991 Gulf War to destroy stocks and cease production.
'Mortified'
Gen Dukaczewski said the shells had been purchased in June after individuals contacted officials in its military zone in south-central Iraq.
Poland leads a multinational force in south-central Iraq
"We were mortified by the information that terrorists were looking for these warheads and offered $5,000 apiece," he said.
"An attack with such weapons would be hard to imagine. All of our activity was accelerated at appropriating these warheads."
US experts carried out tests on the warheads, which indicated the presence of cyclosarin and mustard gas.
The general said the ammunition had been buried in order to avoid it being discovered by UN weapons inspectors.
They were located in a bunker in the Polish sector, but officials refused to reveal their exact whereabouts.
Inconclusive searches by inspectors led the US to accuse Saddam Hussein of failing to surrender chemical and biological weapons and were cited as one of the reasons for the US-led invasion in 2003.
In May, an artillery shell apparently filled with sarin exploded at a roadside near Baghdad but caused no serious injury. |
| Quote | CYCLOSARIN
Nerve agent five times more powerful and durable than Sarin
Symptoms are shortness of breath, muscle spasm, unconsciousness. |
Edited by MADDOG on Jul. 02 2004,12:26 pm
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Actually my wife is especially happy when my google check arrives each month. Thanks to douchbags like you, I get paid just for getting you worked up. -Liberal
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| Post Number: 20
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MADDOG
Group: Moderator
Posts: 7821
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Jul. 02 2004,12:27 pm |
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Here's ther picture.
Attached Image
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Actually my wife is especially happy when my google check arrives each month. Thanks to douchbags like you, I get paid just for getting you worked up. -Liberal
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