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| Post Number: 21
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Moparman 
Group: Members
Posts: 684
Joined: Dec. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 04 2012,3:28 pm |
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Re-read post #9. Reducing surface erosion (wind, runoff), are benefits of subsurface drainage.
Mother nature makes the wind blow and rain fall, this causes erosion.
How does the tile stay open if it transporting so much dirt?
Why is there no washouts around standpipes?
How much silt do you think the wind is moving around today?
D-8 cats?... Do you even have any idea how tiling is one?
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| Post Number: 22
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Pretzel Logic
Group: Members
Posts: 392
Joined: Oct. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 04 2012,7:47 pm |
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Read it several times, Still not making sense. Sounds like cheerleading for a tile company.
There are benefits from tiling ,just as there are down sides. Why are the benefits to one better than the problems for others?
You are suggesting surface erosion is reduced by tiling. How does the tile reduce wind erosion. Can't see it.
Surface run off from rain is going to run off way before it ever hits the tile.
Are you suggesting that all the ditches that have to be dredged out are from wind erosion and run off but not directly from the tile?
Tiles don't plug up? Nope never heard of that before.
It is not dirt as much as the finer particles that get carried thru the soil and into the tile. Like the ooze on the bottoms of the lakes.
If the silt is being brought down with the water thru the tile, the stand pipes should/would not be affected as you say.
Not sure about silt, but there sure is alot of dust. 
It might not be a D 8, but one of the biggest Cats I have ever seen has a tiler on the back of it is sitting in the field across from my buddies place.
I,ve watched forty years worth of tiling in this county and all of the potholes and habitat gone.
Granted not all tiles empty into our watershed. My only concern is with them. It is not just one farm or one tile, it is thousands of acres over time contributing to the problem.
Not digging at you, I know the thread is about the dredge, my concern is having to do it all over. 
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I stepped up on the platform
The Man gave me the news
He said you must be jokin' son
Where did you get those shoes?
Wally & Don
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| Post Number: 23
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Moparman
Group: Members
Posts: 684
Joined: Dec. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 05 2012,2:27 pm |
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Ok, since your still having trouble. Tiling allows for earlier planting, which in turn allows plants to emerge earlier and establish surface cover and root systems that help control erosion (especially wind erosion). Earlier planting allows for a longer a growing season, which combined with good management practices produces healthier plants. Healthy plants have healthy roots (corn roots have been found over 17 feet deep) these healthy root systems provide a good habitat for biological activity ( earthworms, microorganisms, etc). Good biological activity improves soil structure which in turn allows the profile to become more aerobic. This increase in oxygen allows old root systems to decompose faster leaving cavities for more water to be stored/flow through the profile.
The benefits of good productive farmland being used to feed the world far outweigh the perceived " problems" of a few.
Ditches will catch more wind blown material just like they catch more snow in the winter.
We have clay tile that is over 100 years old and still flowing just fine. The only time our tile "plugs" is when some idiot stuffs the outlet.
Silt and dust are the same thing.
Does this " biggest cat you have ever seen" have steel or rubber tracks. Most of today's tile plows don't need that tractive power to pull them.
Your always going to have to do it all over again. Mother nature made it a swamp, man made it a " lake" which now, after decades, needs matainence to try to keep it that way.
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| Post Number: 24
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Pretzel Logic
Group: Members
Posts: 392
Joined: Oct. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 06 2012,1:15 pm |
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Ok, I am not really having trouble. I am seeing it pretty clearly. More rah rah with out addressing the silt.
The perceived "problems" of the few, just cost us $775,000.00 collectivlely with an operating cost of $123.00 an hour for the benefit of a few. I guess fresh fish is not food. I guess in the days of PIK acres subsidies, feeding the world was not a concern.
I would suggest that it is the 100 year old tile that is one of the biggest culprits adding to the siltation. I will bet we would find a corelation between that tile and the decline of one of the best fishing lakes in the state, that was here in 1835. Not a man made swamp as you put it.
Yes the Cat has steel tracks. I can provide directions.
It seems to be an entitlement thought process that its all right for me to drain my swamp and fill in yours.
You must have a vested interest in some aspect of the tiling business. Owner,employee,landowner. So, I ask you, does tiling contribute to the siltation of the lakes or not? It is now a yes or no question. The answer should be telling.
P.S. Kudos for the dredge.
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I stepped up on the platform
The Man gave me the news
He said you must be jokin' son
Where did you get those shoes?
Wally & Don
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| Post Number: 25
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Moparman
Group: Members
Posts: 684
Joined: Dec. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 06 2012,4:56 pm |
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Well you go right ahead and try to sustain feeding yourself much less one family for any prolonged period of time with the catching of fresh fish. Good luck with that.
Best fishing lake in the state nice 1835 ? 
I think you really need to re-read your own post on the history of the lake. You know the part about building a dam in the slough area to create a body of water called Fountain Lake. And by your logic it instantly became the best fishing lake in the state. And you think I'm Rah,Rah,Rahhing?...
Am I going to say that agriculture has not contributed any silt to the lake, absolutely not. That would be unrealistic. It's just one part the equation. But this has always been an agricultural community. Ag products built his town.
You can suggest that a 100 year old tile is the problem, but you would be wrong.
The cost to run the dredge is a pittance compared to the millions of dollars and thousands of people fed that local agricultural operations provide.
It seems to be an entitlement process to blame the ones who supply the most affordable and abundant food supply in the world for everyone's problems.
And no, I don't have an interest in a tiling business. I did,however, grow up living and working on a medium sized farm right on a medium sized lake. Our lake is totally surrounded by farmland and has none of the problems Fountain lake has that is surrounded by....a city.
I think the dredge is a great purchase. I have always thought that buying the equipment would be a better decision than hiring it out. After 180+ years its about time we did some maintenance on our man made lake.
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| Post Number: 26
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Pretzel Logic
Group: Members
Posts: 392
Joined: Oct. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012,6:49 pm |
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I think the steel helmet is working for you ! I was talking about Albert Lea lake , your talking about Fountain.
You are taking some of my words to form your own statements and acting as if I said them. I'm almost thinking I'm talking to the wife.
I never said anything about fish on fountain.
How come if mother nature made a swamp on a farm it can't be left there? Please do not insult the old girl.
If the amount is a pittance as you say, it is now being paid for by the thousands for the benefits of the few with the millions.
Your sentence "It seems to be an entitlement process to blame the ones who supply the most affordable and abundant food supply in the world for everyone's problems"
Not sure where to start with that one. ( Well I do, but jeesh)!
You say I would be wrong about the hundred year old tile. What happens when one collapses? What happens when the ground heaves and they are no longer in alignment? One shovelful at a time is all it takes. I wonder how many miles of that old tile is in Freeborn county alone.
My interest in tiling stems from this: My dad grew up on his grandpas farm. When he graduated from high school in the mid fifties, they sent him up to the U for Ag. Dad comes home tells grandpa they have to tile out the creek. Grandpa says he has been farming the farm for fifty years with the creek there and it is gonna stay. Dad says "Fine I'm going in the army", grandpa says "Fine I'm selling the place". Dad went in the army ,grandpa sold the place. Stubborn a$$ danes. I still believe in this grandpa was right cuz it would have ended up in the east end of the lake. On the other hand, had I ended up with the farm I might have a different point of view. 
And you are right about having people living around the lakes. From the time I moved here it seemed that most had a disdain for the lake(lakes). Treating them as an open waste receptacle. The out of sight out of mind thingy, but it will never equate to the damage done by the siltation from the runoff of the farm land.
I'm done now   !
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I stepped up on the platform
The Man gave me the news
He said you must be jokin' son
Where did you get those shoes?
Wally & Don
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| Post Number: 27
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Duck Hunter
Group: Members
Posts: 174
Joined: Mar. 2007
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012,7:50 pm |
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Tiling and more speifically the draining of thousands of acres of wetlands definately played a part in the degrading lakes. To be fair people cant lay all the blame there, the building of houses and development of shorelines also played a part, as well as mother nature. We are talking about shallow mud bottom water structures and those will eventually flatten out and become shallower marshes, which then could get tiled and give as less water again.
To be sure, tiling wetlands increases the speed of water runoff and erosion. Tiling preexisting wet farmland would promote better soil absorbtion of water in certain examples, but can not always be explained as overall good for the land as a whole, maybe good for the farmland production for an individual, but not for a large geograpic area.
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| Post Number: 28
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Moparman
Group: Members
Posts: 684
Joined: Dec. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 12 2012,3:41 pm |
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(Pretzel Logic @ Oct. 11 2012,6:49 pm)
QUOTE I think the steel helmet is working for you ! I was talking about Albert Lea lake , your talking about Fountain. You are taking some of my words to form your own statements and acting as if I said them. I'm almost thinking I'm talking to the wife. I never said anything about fish on fountain. How come if mother nature made a swamp on a farm it can't be left there? Please do not insult the old girl. If the amount is a pittance as you say, it is now being paid for by the thousands for the benefits of the few with the millions. Your sentence "It seems to be an entitlement process to blame the ones who supply the most affordable and abundant food supply in the world for everyone's problems" Not sure where to start with that one. ( Well I do, but jeesh)! You say I would be wrong about the hundred year old tile. What happens when one collapses? What happens when the ground heaves and they are no longer in alignment? One shovelful at a time is all it takes. I wonder how many miles of that old tile is in Freeborn county alone. My interest in tiling stems from this: My dad grew up on his grandpas farm. When he graduated from high school in the mid fifties, they sent him up to the U for Ag. Dad comes home tells grandpa they have to tile out the creek. Grandpa says he has been farming the farm for fifty years with the creek there and it is gonna stay. Dad says "Fine I'm going in the army", grandpa says "Fine I'm selling the place". Dad went in the army ,grandpa sold the place. Stubborn a$$ danes. I still believe in this grandpa was right cuz it would have ended up in the east end of the lake. On the other hand, had I ended up with the farm I might have a different point of view. And you are right about having people living around the lakes. From the time I moved here it seemed that most had a disdain for the lake(lakes). Treating them as an open waste receptacle. The out of sight out of mind thingy, but it will never equate to the damage done by the siltation from the runoff of the farm land. I'm done now !
The link you posted refers to Fountain Lake. You yourself referred to the decline to one of the best fishing lakes in southern MN that was here since 1835. According to your own link Fountain lake was estsblished in 1835.
And now your suddenly "not referring to Fountain lake"?
I bet your wife gets frustrated quite a bit...
I'm sorry to break this to you but acres of productive farmland are not only more valuable, but absolutely crucial to our economy and society than a swamp.
I think you meant to say paid for by the thousands to benefit the few who FEED the millions. And actually it benefits everyone.
And yes America does enjoy the most abundant, affordable food supply in the world. This because we have the best producers in the world. It's really sad more people don't realize that.
If the problems arise with the tile (which is rare) the grower repairs it. The tile needs to do it's job.
I have a degree in Ag. If my boy came home and said we need to " tile out the creek" I would tell him to go join the army also. How would one even go about doing this? Never seen a tile plow diving down a creek. Hopefully grandpa sold it to a grower who knew what he was doing.
So the damage done by decades of an old dump leaking into the lake, city folks using a 10x rate of fertilizer/herbicide on their lawns, and developing close to the shorelines not as bad a tile slowly draining a field?
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| Post Number: 29
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Pretzel Logic
Group: Members
Posts: 392
Joined: Oct. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 12 2012,5:27 pm |
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Ok , start at the beginning, when you get to the link re read it and see if you can find where you jumped the track.
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I stepped up on the platform
The Man gave me the news
He said you must be jokin' son
Where did you get those shoes?
Wally & Don
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| Post Number: 30
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Moparman
Group: Members
Posts: 684
Joined: Dec. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 12 2012,7:31 pm |
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Oh I'm quite on track. Your the one claiming that farmers destroyed the best fishing lake from 1835. Since both lakes are mentioned in the link I assumed you were talking about Fountain since it was created by damming up a slough.
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