Topic: Dredge
started by: Moparman
Posted by Moparman on Sep. 22 2012,4:49 pm
Any thoughts on the watershed district attempting to buy their own dredge?
Posted by hairhertz on Sep. 23 2012,9:08 am
the Dredge Report:gotta spend that stock-pile of money on something
Posted by RET on Sep. 23 2012,10:53 am
I recommended this to Andy Henschel about 2 years ago and was told it was not feasible. I had figures then that showed how IA had purchased one and had dredged their water shed and costs of doing it. It would have saved over 4 million if I remember correctly to do this rather than contract out like they wanted to do.Now the problem is they will need to purchase land to store the dredged material and hire at a minimum 2 operators preferably more to operate the dredge 24-7. At least then once they finish Albert Lea Lake they could then move to Fountain and then Pickerel, Chapeau so on.
But I doubt they will be smart enough to do this.
Posted by HiggsBoson on Sep. 23 2012,12:42 pm
(RET @ Sep. 23 2012,10:53 am)
QUOTE
At least then once they finish Albert Lea Lake they could then move to Fountain and then Pickerel, Chapeau so on.
But I doubt they will be smart enough to do this.
But I doubt they will be smart enough to do this.
Wouldn't that be backwards? Why dredge the bottom of the chain first? There shouldn't be sediment loading coming out of Pickerel Lake after the fish kill and restocking. But Fountain Lake and its backwaters like Dane Bay and Bancroft Bay is still loaded with phosphorus-rich bottom sediment that drains into Albert Lea Lake.
Not that there still wouldn't be sediment in Pickerel, but it doesn't get stirred up by carp anymore, nor by boat traffic. It would make some sense to limit the horsepower of boats on Pickerel depending on how it develops.
Posted by Counterfeit Fake on Sep. 24 2012,7:51 am
(HiggsBoson @ Sep. 23 2012,12:42 pm)
QUOTE
Wouldn't that be backwards? Why dredge the bottom of the chain first? There shouldn't be sediment loading coming out of Pickerel Lake after the fish kill and restocking. But Fountain Lake and its backwaters like Dane Bay and Bancroft Bay is still loaded with phosphorus-rich bottom sediment that drains into Albert Lea Lake.
Not that there still wouldn't be sediment in Pickerel, but it doesn't get stirred up by carp anymore, nor by boat traffic. It would make some sense to limit the horsepower of boats on Pickerel depending on how it develops.
Not that there still wouldn't be sediment in Pickerel, but it doesn't get stirred up by carp anymore, nor by boat traffic. It would make some sense to limit the horsepower of boats on Pickerel depending on how it develops.
Yeah, sounds backwards to me too. Dredging would stir up a lot of stuff that would then go downstream and undo some of the work that had been done, I would think.
Posted by RET on Sep. 24 2012,10:12 am
I am not saying this is the order to do it but more likely the order they would consider, either that or forget Pickerel totally. All the talk has been dredging Albert Lea Lake.
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Sep. 24 2012,12:15 pm
Unless they stop tiling every inch of farmland and close the current tiles were gonna be doing it a again. Maybe not in our lifetime.The fine silt did not just blow in from the wind. We will always have some amount of soil erosion, but with all the flat land we have around here it is minimal. The siltation and "nutrient loading" comes from the ag land. The ones not paying the extra sales tax to clean up the mess they help create.
True, these shallow basin lakes could very well fill in completely over eons of time. The fine silt hastens it. If this was not the case they would not be having such things as ditch commisioners in charge of cleaning the ditches of the fine silt that fills them up just like the lakes.
This is the pure meaning of the Trickle Down theory, remove the problem from my back yard (as in, I got too much slough ground) and put it in yours and get you to pay for it.
I have felt this way from the begining of this watershed district. We are not addressing the original sin.
Posted by n0esc on Sep. 24 2012,12:17 pm
I see it sold for $340k today. I wonder if we own it or not.
Posted by Moparman on Sep. 24 2012,2:12 pm
(Pretzel Logic @ Sep. 24 2012,12:15 pm)
QUOTE
Unless they stop tiling every inch of farmland and close the current tiles were gonna be doing it a again. Maybe not in our lifetime.
The fine silt did not just blow in from the wind. We will always have some amount of soil erosion, but with all the flat land we have around here it is minimal. The siltation and "nutrient loading" comes from the ag land. The ones not paying the extra sales tax to clean up the mess they help create.
True, these shallow basin lakes could very well fill in completely over eons of time. The fine silt hastens it. If this was not the case they would not be having such things as ditch commisioners in charge of cleaning the ditches of the fine silt that fills them up just like the lakes.
This is the pure meaning of the Trickle Down theory, remove the problem from my back yard (as in, I got too much slough ground) and put it in yours and get you to pay for it.
I have felt this way from the begining of this watershed district. We are not addressing the original sin.
The fine silt did not just blow in from the wind. We will always have some amount of soil erosion, but with all the flat land we have around here it is minimal. The siltation and "nutrient loading" comes from the ag land. The ones not paying the extra sales tax to clean up the mess they help create.
True, these shallow basin lakes could very well fill in completely over eons of time. The fine silt hastens it. If this was not the case they would not be having such things as ditch commisioners in charge of cleaning the ditches of the fine silt that fills them up just like the lakes.
This is the pure meaning of the Trickle Down theory, remove the problem from my back yard (as in, I got too much slough ground) and put it in yours and get you to pay for it.
I have felt this way from the begining of this watershed district. We are not addressing the original sin.
Actually good subsurface drainage increases the soils water holding capacity which greatly reduces the volumes of surface runoff. Subsurface drainage allows more water to be temporarily stored in the soil profile thereby acting as a buffer to peak flow events. This buffering action reduces the speed water moves through the watershed, which is a good thing. As surface runoff volumes are decreased chemical and nutrient loads are also reduced. Also since drainage allows for earlier planting, crops emerge sooner which also helps reduce wind erosion. Soil, chemicals, and nutrients do the grower no good if they are washed away. Most producers use good management practices to reduce this lose as much as possible and good subsurface drainage is just a part the program.
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Sep. 24 2012,4:45 pm
^I am not sure that I see your explanation clearly. Are you suggesting that the permeability rates or percolation factors change simply because there is a piece of vinyl four foot underneath it?
Once the water reaches its way to the tile and starts its journey to the creek it's saturation point is reached.
The sponge can only hold so much. So now, rather than set in the field to absorb it into the ground water or aquifer,it is joined with all of the other tiles entering the creek, increasing speed and volume,carrying more silt.
True, that this is going to start days after a substantial rain, after it has had a chance to flter thru. I do not see how a tiled field will soak up more water , when raining, in the depth of the dirt any faster (four foot down)than non tiled.
All of those other attributes only help the grower. We have traded uproductive farm land for an unproductve lake and not with our consent.
I am all for the idea of our own dredge. When we were done with it we could sell it and recoup some dollars. I would like to see a per acerage charge assesed against every acre of tiled farmland that drains into our watershed to help with the cost or close the tile.
I have no concern whether or not Mr.10,000 acres does not get 250 bushel to the acre at the expense of the lakes.
Posted by Moparman on Sep. 24 2012,5:27 pm
Umm.... Yes that's exactly how drainage works! Pull the plug in the bottom. By no means does the soil profile need to saturated for the tile to be flowing. If it was you would have what these "lakes" we're meant to be, swamps. It's just basic soil science that subsurface drainage increases the soils water holding capacity thereby greatly reducing surface runoff erosion. Besides acres of very productive farmland being used to feed the world is far more important than some useless slough or someones precious "lake view".
Posted by hairhertz on Sep. 24 2012,5:33 pm
Wasn't there a plan to build islands in AL Lake from dredged material? Something about the heavy metals and the prohibitive cost of dumping the material on land?
Posted by danbelshan on Sep. 24 2012,9:18 pm
The Good News:Dredge was purchased . Was told it saved about $700,000 from purchasing new.
I also suggested to buy a dredge. I have relatives in Fairmont and boated on the chain of lakes . Fairmont owned a dredge for years and deepened their lakes at a low cost. Dredge was publicly owned.
The Bad News. The Minnesota DNR can take two years to give a permit to allow dredging.
The Solution:
Anyone for seceding from MN and becoming the northern most lake in Iowa?
When were done with the dredge we could turn it into a Riverboat Casino!!!
Posted by Botto 82 on Sep. 25 2012,2:24 am
(Pretzel Logic @ Sep. 24 2012,12:15 pm)
QUOTE
We are not addressing the original sin.
Exactly. Rampant tiling and fertilizer application have brought us to this point. All-too-often watershed issues are kicked downstream to the next poor bastard. Sucks to be you, New Orleans...
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Oct. 02 2012,9:18 am
HH, that was the plan we were told back in the 90's. To knock out the dam and let the lake drain out thru a channel and then push the sediment up into islands. The problem it turned out is there is not enough drop in the lake and the outlet for the water to run down hill. So it would not dry out enough to get heavy equipment in to make the islands, as it was explained to me. We would need to make the river deeper.Moparman, you still kinda skirted the silt issue in your in your example. How can we keep it from happening again? The silt I mean.
Posted by pepi-lapew on Oct. 02 2012,10:16 am
The cheapest cost is to blow the dam and turn albert lea lake back to the stream it was? salution solved 
Posted by jaaah on Oct. 02 2012,1:01 pm
(hairhertz @ Sep. 23 2012,9:08 am)
QUOTE
the Dredge Report:
gotta spend that stock-pile of money on something
gotta spend that stock-pile of money on something
Great job
to the watershed for having a "stockpile" of money. People complain about the city spending all their money and now there is an entity that saves their money and your complaining about it?!!!! Make up your mind. I LOVE driving past Pickeral Lake and seeing the variety of birds there. Kudos to those who are doing their best to clean the lakes.
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Oct. 02 2012,2:47 pm
The stream would be Fountain Lake< www.cityofalbertlea.org/about-albert-lea/history >
Posted by Moparman on Oct. 02 2012,5:17 pm
(Pretzel Logic @ Oct. 02 2012,9:18 am)
QUOTE
HH, that was the plan we were told back in the 90's. To knock out the dam and let the lake drain out thru a channel and then push the sediment up into islands. The problem it turned out is there is not enough drop in the lake and the outlet for the water to run down hill. So it would not dry out enough to get heavy equipment in to make the islands, as it was explained to me. We would need to make the river deeper.
Moparman, you still kinda skirted the silt issue in your in your example. How can we keep it from happening again? The silt I mean.
Moparman, you still kinda skirted the silt issue in your in your example. How can we keep it from happening again? The silt I mean.
What issue did I skirt? Men turned a slough into a " lake" and ever since mother nature has been trying to turn it back.
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Oct. 04 2012,10:54 am
^^The siltation.
When did mother nature start driving D 8 cats and burying plastic pipe?
I really figured you for a better answer.
Posted by Moparman on Oct. 04 2012,3:28 pm
Re-read post #9. Reducing surface erosion (wind, runoff), are benefits of subsurface drainage. Mother nature makes the wind blow and rain fall, this causes erosion.
How does the tile stay open if it transporting so much dirt?
Why is there no washouts around standpipes?
How much silt do you think the wind is moving around today?
D-8 cats?... Do you even have any idea how tiling is one?
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Oct. 04 2012,7:47 pm
Read it several times, Still not making sense. Sounds like cheerleading for a tile company.There are benefits from tiling ,just as there are down sides. Why are the benefits to one better than the problems for others?
You are suggesting surface erosion is reduced by tiling. How does the tile reduce wind erosion. Can't see it.
Surface run off from rain is going to run off way before it ever hits the tile.
Are you suggesting that all the ditches that have to be dredged out are from wind erosion and run off but not directly from the tile?
Tiles don't plug up? Nope never heard of that before.
It is not dirt as much as the finer particles that get carried thru the soil and into the tile. Like the ooze on the bottoms of the lakes.
If the silt is being brought down with the water thru the tile, the stand pipes should/would not be affected as you say.
Not sure about silt, but there sure is alot of dust.
It might not be a D 8, but one of the biggest Cats I have ever seen has a tiler on the back of it is sitting in the field across from my buddies place.
I,ve watched forty years worth of tiling in this county and all of the potholes and habitat gone.
Granted not all tiles empty into our watershed. My only concern is with them. It is not just one farm or one tile, it is thousands of acres over time contributing to the problem.
Not digging at you, I know the thread is about the dredge, my concern is having to do it all over.
Posted by Moparman on Oct. 05 2012,2:27 pm
Ok, since your still having trouble. Tiling allows for earlier planting, which in turn allows plants to emerge earlier and establish surface cover and root systems that help control erosion (especially wind erosion). Earlier planting allows for a longer a growing season, which combined with good management practices produces healthier plants. Healthy plants have healthy roots (corn roots have been found over 17 feet deep) these healthy root systems provide a good habitat for biological activity ( earthworms, microorganisms, etc). Good biological activity improves soil structure which in turn allows the profile to become more aerobic. This increase in oxygen allows old root systems to decompose faster leaving cavities for more water to be stored/flow through the profile. The benefits of good productive farmland being used to feed the world far outweigh the perceived " problems" of a few.
Ditches will catch more wind blown material just like they catch more snow in the winter.
We have clay tile that is over 100 years old and still flowing just fine. The only time our tile "plugs" is when some idiot stuffs the outlet.
Silt and dust are the same thing.
Does this " biggest cat you have ever seen" have steel or rubber tracks. Most of today's tile plows don't need that tractive power to pull them.
Your always going to have to do it all over again. Mother nature made it a swamp, man made it a " lake" which now, after decades, needs matainence to try to keep it that way.
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Oct. 06 2012,1:15 pm
Ok, I am not really having trouble. I am seeing it pretty clearly. More rah rah with out addressing the silt.The perceived "problems" of the few, just cost us $775,000.00 collectivlely with an operating cost of $123.00 an hour for the benefit of a few. I guess fresh fish is not food. I guess in the days of PIK acres subsidies, feeding the world was not a concern.
I would suggest that it is the 100 year old tile that is one of the biggest culprits adding to the siltation. I will bet we would find a corelation between that tile and the decline of one of the best fishing lakes in the state, that was here in 1835. Not a man made swamp as you put it.
Yes the Cat has steel tracks. I can provide directions.
It seems to be an entitlement thought process that its all right for me to drain my swamp and fill in yours.
You must have a vested interest in some aspect of the tiling business. Owner,employee,landowner. So, I ask you, does tiling contribute to the siltation of the lakes or not? It is now a yes or no question. The answer should be telling.
P.S. Kudos for the dredge.
Posted by Moparman on Oct. 06 2012,4:56 pm
Well you go right ahead and try to sustain feeding yourself much less one family for any prolonged period of time with the catching of fresh fish. Good luck with that. Best fishing lake in the state nice 1835
? I think you really need to re-read your own post on the history of the lake. You know the part about building a dam in the slough area to create a body of water called Fountain Lake. And by your logic it instantly became the best fishing lake in the state.
And you think I'm Rah,Rah,Rahhing?...Am I going to say that agriculture has not contributed any silt to the lake, absolutely not. That would be unrealistic. It's just one part the equation. But this has always been an agricultural community. Ag products built his town.
You can suggest that a 100 year old tile is the problem, but you would be wrong.
The cost to run the dredge is a pittance compared to the millions of dollars and thousands of people fed that local agricultural operations provide.
It seems to be an entitlement process to blame the ones who supply the most affordable and abundant food supply in the world for everyone's problems.
And no, I don't have an interest in a tiling business. I did,however, grow up living and working on a medium sized farm right on a medium sized lake. Our lake is totally surrounded by farmland and has none of the problems Fountain lake has that is surrounded by....a city.
I think the dredge is a great purchase. I have always thought that buying the equipment would be a better decision than hiring it out. After 180+ years its about time we did some maintenance on our man made lake.
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Oct. 11 2012,6:49 pm
I think the steel helmet is working for you ! I was talking about Albert Lea lake , your talking about Fountain. You are taking some of my words to form your own statements and acting as if I said them. I'm almost thinking I'm talking to the wife.
I never said anything about fish on fountain.
How come if mother nature made a swamp on a farm it can't be left there? Please do not insult the old girl.
If the amount is a pittance as you say, it is now being paid for by the thousands for the benefits of the few with the millions.
Your sentence "It seems to be an entitlement process to blame the ones who supply the most affordable and abundant food supply in the world for everyone's problems"
Not sure where to start with that one. ( Well I do, but jeesh)!
You say I would be wrong about the hundred year old tile. What happens when one collapses? What happens when the ground heaves and they are no longer in alignment? One shovelful at a time is all it takes. I wonder how many miles of that old tile is in Freeborn county alone.
My interest in tiling stems from this: My dad grew up on his grandpas farm. When he graduated from high school in the mid fifties, they sent him up to the U for Ag. Dad comes home tells grandpa they have to tile out the creek. Grandpa says he has been farming the farm for fifty years with the creek there and it is gonna stay. Dad says "Fine I'm going in the army", grandpa says "Fine I'm selling the place". Dad went in the army ,grandpa sold the place. Stubborn a$$ danes. I still believe in this grandpa was right cuz it would have ended up in the east end of the lake. On the other hand, had I ended up with the farm I might have a different point of view.
And you are right about having people living around the lakes. From the time I moved here it seemed that most had a disdain for the lake(lakes). Treating them as an open waste receptacle. The out of sight out of mind thingy, but it will never equate to the damage done by the siltation from the runoff of the farm land.
I'm done now
!
Posted by Duck Hunter on Oct. 11 2012,7:50 pm
Tiling and more speifically the draining of thousands of acres of wetlands definately played a part in the degrading lakes. To be fair people cant lay all the blame there, the building of houses and development of shorelines also played a part, as well as mother nature. We are talking about shallow mud bottom water structures and those will eventually flatten out and become shallower marshes, which then could get tiled and give as less water again. To be sure, tiling wetlands increases the speed of water runoff and erosion. Tiling preexisting wet farmland would promote better soil absorbtion of water in certain examples, but can not always be explained as overall good for the land as a whole, maybe good for the farmland production for an individual, but not for a large geograpic area.
Posted by Moparman on Oct. 12 2012,3:41 pm
(Pretzel Logic @ Oct. 11 2012,6:49 pm)
QUOTE
I think the steel helmet is working for you ! I was talking about Albert Lea lake , your talking about Fountain.
You are taking some of my words to form your own statements and acting as if I said them. I'm almost thinking I'm talking to the wife.
I never said anything about fish on fountain.
How come if mother nature made a swamp on a farm it can't be left there? Please do not insult the old girl.
If the amount is a pittance as you say, it is now being paid for by the thousands for the benefits of the few with the millions.
Your sentence "It seems to be an entitlement process to blame the ones who supply the most affordable and abundant food supply in the world for everyone's problems"
Not sure where to start with that one. ( Well I do, but jeesh)!
You say I would be wrong about the hundred year old tile. What happens when one collapses? What happens when the ground heaves and they are no longer in alignment? One shovelful at a time is all it takes. I wonder how many miles of that old tile is in Freeborn county alone.
My interest in tiling stems from this: My dad grew up on his grandpas farm. When he graduated from high school in the mid fifties, they sent him up to the U for Ag. Dad comes home tells grandpa they have to tile out the creek. Grandpa says he has been farming the farm for fifty years with the creek there and it is gonna stay. Dad says "Fine I'm going in the army", grandpa says "Fine I'm selling the place". Dad went in the army ,grandpa sold the place. Stubborn a$$ danes. I still believe in this grandpa was right cuz it would have ended up in the east end of the lake. On the other hand, had I ended up with the farm I might have a different point of view.
And you are right about having people living around the lakes. From the time I moved here it seemed that most had a disdain for the lake(lakes). Treating them as an open waste receptacle. The out of sight out of mind thingy, but it will never equate to the damage done by the siltation from the runoff of the farm land.
I'm done now !
You are taking some of my words to form your own statements and acting as if I said them. I'm almost thinking I'm talking to the wife.
I never said anything about fish on fountain.
How come if mother nature made a swamp on a farm it can't be left there? Please do not insult the old girl.
If the amount is a pittance as you say, it is now being paid for by the thousands for the benefits of the few with the millions.
Your sentence "It seems to be an entitlement process to blame the ones who supply the most affordable and abundant food supply in the world for everyone's problems"
Not sure where to start with that one. ( Well I do, but jeesh)!
You say I would be wrong about the hundred year old tile. What happens when one collapses? What happens when the ground heaves and they are no longer in alignment? One shovelful at a time is all it takes. I wonder how many miles of that old tile is in Freeborn county alone.
My interest in tiling stems from this: My dad grew up on his grandpas farm. When he graduated from high school in the mid fifties, they sent him up to the U for Ag. Dad comes home tells grandpa they have to tile out the creek. Grandpa says he has been farming the farm for fifty years with the creek there and it is gonna stay. Dad says "Fine I'm going in the army", grandpa says "Fine I'm selling the place". Dad went in the army ,grandpa sold the place. Stubborn a$$ danes. I still believe in this grandpa was right cuz it would have ended up in the east end of the lake. On the other hand, had I ended up with the farm I might have a different point of view.
And you are right about having people living around the lakes. From the time I moved here it seemed that most had a disdain for the lake(lakes). Treating them as an open waste receptacle. The out of sight out of mind thingy, but it will never equate to the damage done by the siltation from the runoff of the farm land.
I'm done now
!The link you posted refers to Fountain Lake. You yourself referred to the decline to one of the best fishing lakes in southern MN that was here since 1835. According to your own link Fountain lake was estsblished in 1835.
And now your suddenly "not referring to Fountain lake"
? I bet your wife gets frustrated quite a bit...
I'm sorry to break this to you but acres of productive farmland are not only more valuable, but absolutely crucial to our economy and society than a swamp.
I think you meant to say paid for by the thousands to benefit the few who FEED the millions. And actually it benefits everyone.
And yes America does enjoy the most abundant, affordable food supply in the world. This because we have the best producers in the world. It's really sad more people don't realize that.
If the problems arise with the tile (which is rare) the grower repairs it. The tile needs to do it's job.
I have a degree in Ag. If my boy came home and said we need to " tile out the creek" I would tell him to go join the army also. How would one even go about doing this? Never seen a tile plow diving down a creek. Hopefully grandpa sold it to a grower who knew what he was doing.
So the damage done by decades of an old dump leaking into the lake, city folks using a 10x rate of fertilizer/herbicide on their lawns, and developing close to the shorelines not as bad a tile slowly draining a field?
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Oct. 12 2012,5:27 pm
Ok , start at the beginning, when you get to the link re read it and see if you can find where you jumped the track.
Posted by Moparman on Oct. 12 2012,7:31 pm
Oh I'm quite on track. Your the one claiming that farmers destroyed the best fishing lake from 1835. Since both lakes are mentioned in the link I assumed you were talking about Fountain since it was created by damming up a slough.
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Oct. 13 2012,8:26 am
Ok, don't read it.
Posted by Moparman on Oct. 13 2012,2:49 pm
I'm sorry your having trouble.
Posted by Chamber Maid on Aug. 13 2013,1:58 pm
Now the Watershed will have a place to store the dredge by buying the Country Club. When are they starting to dredge again?
Must be fun to spend our money like "drunken sailors"
Posted by Glad I Left on Aug. 13 2013,2:57 pm
(Chamber Maid @ Aug. 13 2013,1:58 pm)
QUOTE
Must be fun to spend our money like "drunken sailors"
Or like sober congress critters
Posted by hymiebravo on Apr. 28 2015,8:17 pm
Was there ever a definitive winner chosen in the last debate in this thread?