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hoosier 
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: May 07 2004,12:22 pm |
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I have been watching Rumsfeld on TV this morning. It looks more and more like the soldiers and private contractors that committed these horrible acts will be the only ones punished. Do they really think all Americans are stupid enough to believe that the CIA and military intellagence has never committed or condoned torture? What we need to do is find that one person that said this was ok, as high up as it goes. And what the hell are civilian contractors doing interrogating prisoners? I'll tell you what, we rushed into this war on our own, thumbed our nose at the rest of the world, and went in to Iraq undermanned and unprepared, while fighting another war in the same region. The U.S. alone had twice the number of troops in the first Gulf War, and we had help and soldiers from many other nations.
But back to the prisoners. Is anyone really surprised something like this happened? Since 9/11 we have trampled on the constitution and peoples rights. Our own president condones it, says it is neccesary to conduct the war.
Bull$hit! Hey Bush  Someone please show me where on the constitution it says "Disregard in time of war." Please? The fact is the constitution and the geneva convention stand in Bush's way of conducting foriegn and domestic policy. My god, we have held two American born citizens for over two years each, no charges, no bail, no court appearance, no rights under our constitution or the geneva convention. I am dead serious when I say that Bush should be tried and hung for treason. He took our constitution and decided it didnt apply to him. He thumbed his nose at it, he did the same to all of us.
Now we have prisoners, who we say have no rights, being mistreated. Wow, what a surprise. You want to know who told them in an indirect way that it was ok? George W. Bush.
And in going, ask yourself if we would even know about this if the news media had not published the pictures? I think not, they have known about it since atleast as early as December of last year. The red cross they told them about it long before that.
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 2
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GEOKARJO
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Posted on: May 07 2004,12:45 pm |
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This is a trickle down Jane Fondam, John Kerry effect I didn't see any footage of people being Tortured Harassed and Humiliated maybe but not tortured Such as our troops are but who is being held responsible, Lets remember these are terrorist not soldiers that have been humiliated Iraqs army went home.
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: May 07 2004,1:06 pm |
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| Quote | And in going, ask yourself if we would even know about this if the news media had not published the pictures? I think not, they have known about it since atleast as early as December of last year. The red cross they told them about it long before that.
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The ARMY published this in January--not CBS, not CNN, not the Red Cross. That's the complaint from everyone in Washington--News media, Representatives, Senators, Senate pages, Interns, Lobbiests, government officials, Bush, and other hangers-on--"why were we not told?" 
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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Jen99
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Joined: Feb. 2004
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Posted on: May 07 2004,1:07 pm |
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It sickens me to see the media overplay these pictures & show their disgust with our solders. A couple of weeks ago as dead burned American bodies hanged in the wind there was not this much outrage.
It was not acceptable behavior from our troops but it is not as big of a deal as the media & the rest of the world is making it out to be.
Can you really blame the troops all that much? How would you feel if you were 1000's of miles from home and seeing your fellow solders ambushed daily by terrorists? Or how about seeing solders dragged behind cars or hanging from a bridge?
The media is making these solders out to be cold blooded evil villains. They embarrassed the prisoners; they did not injure or scar these people for life.
Our troops made a mistake, not even a very big one but don't tell the media that, they have already made up their mind on how they will spin this.
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hoosier
Group: Members
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Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: May 07 2004,1:14 pm |
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Geo, do you even watch the news? Sure, some may be fighters, but not all. We went into to villages and rounded up thousands of men, and held them without being charged. We have released alot, but still ahve many thousands that are just being held for information they may or may not have.
I agree, if the people that committed 9/11 had not died and been caught, then I would have no problem seeing them treated like that. But let me ask you, have all these men in that prison been found to be guilty of anything? Have they had a day in court? Have they been in front of a military court? No to every question. So what you have here is people that have just been accused of something. So we now have a whole new classifiication of people. We have American citizens, who should be able to depned on the constitution and the bill of rights for protection, but cant now. We have prisoners of war, who should be able to depend on the geneva convention for protection, but cant now. And now we have people that are SUSPECTED TERRORISTS! Of course, why should they have rights that no one else does.
My point is that you cant pick and choose who is protected or not protected under the law and the constitution.
One more thing, someone please tell me by what authority the president puts aside civil liberties in time of national crisis? Show me where congress can grant him that power?
Did you know that the state department was ready to release a human rights report just as this came to light. It was going to criticise the rest of the world for human rights violations, while of course taking no blame ourselves. They wisely decided it would be better to hold off on the release, might not look good.
One last thing, has anyone else considered that stackin Muslim men, naked, in front of females, putting womens underware on their heads might just be more torture than we would think it is?
Sorry, but not all the men in that prison are guilty of crimes, they may be suspected, but I thought this was the United States of America, I thought we were better this. I was wrong!
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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GEOKARJO
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Posted on: May 07 2004,1:43 pm |
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Hoosier I am sitting here looking at my Pictures from Vietnam in comparison there is none I believe this war has treated it's prisoners with much more decency than they have ever done in any war.
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| Post Number: 7
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hoosier
Group: Members
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Posted on: May 07 2004,1:59 pm |
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Geo, thanks for posting on this subject.
I just want to say that this is an issue that does need to hear from both sides. While I believe that some Americans are not taking this seriously enough, are not out raged enough. Others, like myself, are plenty outraged, but we dont need to beat ourselves up to badly. Thats why its good to hear from both sides of the issue. And while I dont understand it, I do realize that some think that nothing wrong has accured. And let me point out that while I do blame the soldiers, because they do not have to obey an illegal command, it seems to me that the people to blame mostly got a free pass today. The CIA and military intel. Who told the guards to "soften em up?" Those are the people that need to be held accountable along with the soldiers, maybe even more.
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: May 07 2004,2:03 pm |
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Sorry--I meant to include this in the post above. The media seems to be taking credit for "exposing" this embarrassing story--but the Army did it, in January. From the Wall Street Journal Opinion Report | Quote | For a sense of proportion, let's rehearse the timeline here. While some accusations of abuse go back to 2002 in Afghanistan, the incidents at Abu Ghraib that triggered this week's news occurred last autumn. They came to light through the chain of command in Iraq on January 13. An Army criminal probe began a day later. Two days after that, the U.S. Central Command disclosed in a press release that "an investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee abuse at a Coalition Forces detention facility." By March 20, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt was able to announce in Baghdad that criminal charges had been brought against six soldiers in the probe.
By the end of January, meanwhile, Major General Antonio Taguba was appointed to conduct his separate "administrative" probe of procedures at Abu Ghraib. It is his report, complete with its incriminating photos, that is the basis for the past week's news reports. The press didn't break this story based on months of sleuthing but was served up the results of the Army's own investigation.
By Februar[b]y, the [/b]Secretary of the Army had ordered the service's inspector general to assess the doctrine and training for detention operations within all of CentCom. A month after that, another probe began into Army Reserve training[b], especially military police and intelligence. Those reports will presumably also be leaked and reported on, or at least they will be if they reach negative conclusions.
This is a cover-up? Unlike the Catholic bishops, some corporate boards and the editors of the New York Times or USA Today, the military brass did not dismiss early allegations of bad behavior. Instead, it established reviews and procedures that have uncovered the very details that are now used by critics to indict the Pentagon "system." It has done so, moreover, amid a war against a deadly insurgency in which interrogation to gain good intelligence is critical to victory--and to saving American lives.
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Link to entire interesting article, with timeline http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005044
If this was issued in a press release months ago--why is it just now coming out? How can the press be claiming "why weren't we told"? Is it sensationalism? Political football on a slow news day? The timing seems off.
A couple of things I don't understand--usually, something like this goes up the chain of command--but the female Brigadier General in command of the prison seems to have escaped the flak--in fact, she said she "wasn't allowed into that section of the prison". That seems strange, given the power of a General, and the fact that it is her command.
Liberal--you were an MP--do you have any insight into this incident?
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 9
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GEOKARJO
Google This!!!
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Posted on: May 07 2004,2:05 pm |
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There has to be some kind of humiliation to control the prison population These are agressive indviduals that would slice your throat all in the name of alla. You just cannot shake your finger at them and say don't do that. Are you familiar witht the term Bag and Gag. It is a law enforcemnet measure you have watched on cops the TV series.
If the president wasn't up for re election this would have never made the headlines.
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| Post Number: 10
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
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Posted on: May 07 2004,2:06 pm |
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I agree Jim, who told her she wasnt allowed in? Thats the name we need. Like I said, I think the CIA is getting a free pass on this one.
I might add that haveing watched the testamony, it was hard to tell sometimes if senators were pissed that something like this could happen. Or if they were just pissed that it got out before they new about it.
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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