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Grinning_Dragon 
rideo draconigena
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Posted on: Feb. 27 2013,9:18 pm |
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Taken from HERE
David Larson posits the following:
QUOTE I would enjoy hearing from gun owners and non-gun owners alike: What does the “well-regulated” part of the Second Amendment mean to you?
And, what should our country do to honor it?
David Larson
Albert Lea
Well David,
It would seem you, like many other misinformed Americans clue in on this part of the 2nd Amendment and gather that this means the regulation of arms.
This type of thinking is incorrect. First we must understand that the first part of the 2nd Amendment "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" is DEPENDENT upon the main clause of the Amendment "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Without the PEOPLE being able to keep and bear arms, there is NO militia.
Now on to your main question "regulated"
When referring to regulated in this context, it is NOT the regulation of arms, but the regulation of the militia in the sense of the militia being well trained and well versed in the usage of arms.
Lets look to Federalist #29:
QUOTE "But though the scheme of disciplining the whole nation must be abandoned as mischievous or impracticable; yet it is a matter of the utmost importance that a well-digested plan should, as soon as possible, be adopted for the proper establishment of the militia. The attention of the government ought particularly to be directed to the formation of a select corps of moderate extent, upon such principles as will really fit them for service in case of need. By thus circumscribing the plan, it will be possible to have an excellent body of well-trained militia, ready to take the field whenever the defense of the State shall require it. This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
Here Hamilton is making the case that the States should create their militia. To which further in this case, continues; "if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens." He is stating that IF a (Federal/National) "standing army" should be required the threat posed by that standing army to the liberties of the citizens (a concept that was obviously then, and should still be today, apparent to anyone reading FP.29) would best be held in check by (State) "the Militia".
We can also look at Federalist #28 also from Hamilton
Hamilton clearly states there exists a right of self-defense against a tyrannical government, and it includes the people with their own arms and adds:
QUOTE [T]he people, without exaggeration, may be said to be entirely the masters of their own fate. Power being almost always the rival of power, the general government will at all times stand ready to check the usurpations of the state governments, and these will have the same disposition towards the general government. The people by throwing themselves into either scale, will infallibly make it preponderate. If their rights are invaded by either, they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress. How wise will it be in them by cherishing the union to preserve to themselves an advantage which can never be too highly prized!
As you can see the militia is to be the ultimate check against a state or national govt. This is one of the main reasons the founding fathers thought it necessary and proper to include the 2nd Amendment and the right to keep and bear arms to the people instead of only active militia members.
We can also look further in Federalist # 46 in which Madison puts forth:
QUOTE Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments,to which the people are attached, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.
Madison is making the case that when the people are able obtain weapons and having this right enumerated and protected is enhanced by having a militia that is properly organized.
It is quite obvious David that you are lacking in the understanding of the framing and construct of the 2nd Amendment. I have only presented a very light cliff notes per se on the topic at hand. I suggest instead of parroting mindless uneducated assumptions of what is or has been put forth from the many talking heads on TV, radio who are just as clueless or are more interested in peddling emotional B.S.
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*SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS / MOLON LABE / Se Defendendo
memoria of cado frater ,Semper fidelis
*The object of war is NOT to DIE for YOUR Country, but to make the OTHER BASTARD DIE for HIS...Patton
My Constitutional Rights trump your dead.
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Rosalind_Swenson
Group: Members
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Posted on: Feb. 27 2013,10:23 pm |
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When did states and communities stop having officially recognized citizen militias?
I think we might need to have them organized again.
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And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
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Grinning_Dragon
rideo draconigena
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Posted on: Feb. 27 2013,10:35 pm |
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To continue further, even though I highly doubt David will reply.
The Random House College Dictionary (1980) gives four definitions for the word "regulate," which were all in use during the Colonial period and one more definition dating from 1690 (Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition, 1989). They are:
1) To control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.
2) To adjust to some standard or requirement as for amount, degree, etc.
3) To adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation.
4) To put in good order.
[obsolete sense]
b. Of troops: Properly disciplined. Obs. rare-1.
1690 Lond. Gaz. No. 2568/3 We hear likewise that the French are in a great Allarm in Dauphine and Bresse, not having at present 1500 Men of regulated Troops on that side.
We can begin to deduce what well-regulated meant from Alexander Hamilton's words in Federalist Paper No. 29:
QUOTE The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.
Here we see that Hamilton is indicating that a well regulated militia (again the reference is to the militia NOT arms) is a state of being ready or prepared through rigorous and continuous training, it also can be pointed out that disciplined can be synonymous with being well trained
If we expand further on the 2nd Amendment and get to the meaning of arms we can point to the meaning of what was defined as such in the period of time of when the 2nd Amendment was drafted.
In Colonial times "arms" usually meant weapons that could be carried. This included knives, swords, rifles and pistols. Dictionaries of the time had a separate definition for ordinance" meaning cannon. Any hand held, non-ordnance type weapons, are theoretically constitutionally protected.
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*SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS / MOLON LABE / Se Defendendo
memoria of cado frater ,Semper fidelis
*The object of war is NOT to DIE for YOUR Country, but to make the OTHER BASTARD DIE for HIS...Patton
My Constitutional Rights trump your dead.
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Rosalind_Swenson
Group: Members
Posts: 1527
Joined: May 2011
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Posted on: Feb. 27 2013,11:47 pm |
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With the way unorganized/unrecognized militias are portrayed by the media and government?
Dang, you should be a constitutional lawyer GD!
So, I was checking into things about the unorganized militia. For the most part I only found two different things on it. Either it was mentioned by groups of regular people who have formed their own militias, or it was mentioned by people who were bashing the first group! Then I found this. South Carolina has just started working on legislation describing the duties of their unorganized militia.
QUOTE 1/16/2013 (B) The unorganized militia will be under the supervision of the Governor, as Commander-in-Chief, and the Adjutant General and shall be regulated through the actions of the General Assembly.
© The powers and duties of the South Carolina Unorganized Militia include:
(1) The militia may be ordered to active duty pursuant to the provisions of Section 25-1-1890.
(2) A militia member, at his own expense, shall have the right to possess and keep all arms that could be legally acquired or possessed by a South Carolina citizen as of December 31, 2012. This includes shouldered rifles and shotguns, handguns, clips, magazines, and all components.
(3) The unorganized militia may not fall under any law or regulation or jurisdiction of any person or entity outside of South Carolina.
(4) A member may resign at any time from the unorganized militia, at which time he will resume his civilian status."
SECTION 2. This act takes effect upon approval by the Governor.
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This web page was last updated on February 21, 2013 at 1:13 PM
http://www.scstatehouse.gov/sess120_2013-2014/bills/247.htm
I was quite surprised to see that.
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And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
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Self-Banished
Group: Members
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Posted on: Feb. 28 2013,4:37 am |
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Very nice GD. 
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 Remember boys and girls,
Don’t be a Dick …
Or a “Wayne” 
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Self-Banished
Group: Members
Posts: 22699
Joined: Feb. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 28 2013,6:14 am |
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Would Thursday night pistol league be considered a militia?
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Remember boys and girls,
Don’t be a Dick …
Or a “Wayne”
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| Post Number: 9
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Grinning_Dragon
rideo draconigena
Group: Members
Posts: 3095
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 28 2013,8:43 am |
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(Rosalind_Swenson @ Feb. 27 2013,11:47 pm)
QUOTE With the way unorganized/unrecognized militias are portrayed by the media and government? Dang, you should be a constitutional lawyer GD! So, I was checking into things about the unorganized militia. For the most part I only found two different things on it. Either it was mentioned by groups of regular people who have formed their own militias, or it was mentioned by people who were bashing the first group! Then I found this. South Carolina has just started working on legislation describing the duties of their unorganized militia. QUOTE 1/16/2013 (B) The unorganized militia will be under the supervision of the Governor, as Commander-in-Chief, and the Adjutant General and shall be regulated through the actions of the General Assembly.
© The powers and duties of the South Carolina Unorganized Militia include:
(1) The militia may be ordered to active duty pursuant to the provisions of Section 25-1-1890.
(2) A militia member, at his own expense, shall have the right to possess and keep all arms that could be legally acquired or possessed by a South Carolina citizen as of December 31, 2012. This includes shouldered rifles and shotguns, handguns, clips, magazines, and all components.
(3) The unorganized militia may not fall under any law or regulation or jurisdiction of any person or entity outside of South Carolina.
(4) A member may resign at any time from the unorganized militia, at which time he will resume his civilian status."
SECTION 2. This act takes effect upon approval by the Governor.
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This web page was last updated on February 21, 2013 at 1:13 PM http://www.scstatehouse.gov/sess120_2013-2014/bills/247.htmI was quite surprised to see that.
A Constitutional lawyer? Thanks but no thanks, way too much work involved. HA I have it easy on what I do.
I think a lot militia groups get a bad name from the few that are a bit more edgy and outspoken. It also seems some people just have an issue with people training and makes them uncomfortable or something, to which I say, it is their problem and they need to mind their own business, those who train are not hurting anybody.
In Louisiana and other states there are state defense forces which is basically a militia. These units operate under the sole authority of a state government; they are partially regulated by the National Guard Bureau but they are not a part of the Army National Guard of the United States. State defense forces are authorized by state and federal law and are under the command of the governor of each state.
State defense forces are distinct from their state's National Guard in that they cannot become federal entities.
Many states organize their state defense force parallel to their National Guard force (both Air and Army), having them report to the governor through the state's adjutant general. State defense forces are not funded by the federal government, and in most states members are unpaid. Volunteers have to purchase their own uniforms and most, if not all, of their own equipment
As much as I hate to use wiki, here is a bit more explaining it. State defense Forces
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*SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS / MOLON LABE / Se Defendendo
memoria of cado frater ,Semper fidelis
*The object of war is NOT to DIE for YOUR Country, but to make the OTHER BASTARD DIE for HIS...Patton
My Constitutional Rights trump your dead.
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