Topic: Military tied by people back home
started by: dinomac
Posted by dinomac on Jul. 15 2007,2:38 pm
My Special Forces son who is stationed in Iraq tells me that the U.S. could win the war in Iraq (notice... I didn't say stabilize the country or fix the civil war), IF the people back home would let them. He says that even the colonels and generals hold the soldiers back from effectively doing their jobs, because the lack of desire of the people of the U.S. to win the war. Everyone wants a "sanitary" war with no casualties or losses. Well, because of that... we are losing more guys because we don't adequately "take care of business.". Make no mistake about it... he says we are doing a GREAT job taking care of the terrorists over there... including iranians (supporting the terrorists). He also says that if we have a wholesale pullout... there WILL be a bloodbath.... which is weird that Americans don't care about thousands dying, as long as they aren't soldiers.
Let's support our troops, by asking our Representatives and Senators to support our President, who in turn can push the military leaders to WIN this war. The soldiers say it can be won fairly quickly if we would just have the will to win!!!!
Posted by Liberal on Jul. 15 2007,4:20 pm
| Quote |
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif.—A Marine corporal testifying in a court-martial said Marines in his unit began routinely beating Iraqis after officers ordered them to "crank up the violence level." Cpl. Saul H. Lopezromo testified Saturday at the murder trial of Cpl. Trent D. Thomas. "We were told to crank up the violence level," said Lopezromo, testifying for the defense. When a juror asked for further explanation, Lopezromo said: "We beat people, sir." Within weeks of allegedly being scolded, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman went out late one night to find and kill a suspected insurgent in the village of Hamandiya near the Abu Ghraib prison. The Marines and corpsman were from 2nd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment. Lopezromo said the suspected insurgent was known to his neighbors as the "prince of jihad," and had been arrested several times and later released by the Iraqi legal system. Unable to find him, the Marines and corpsman dragged another man from his house, fatally shot him, and then planted an AK-47 assault rifle near the body to make it appear he had been killed in a shootout, according to court testimony. Four Marines and the corpsman, initially charged with murder in the April 2006 killing, have pleaded guilty to reduced charges and been given jail sentences ranging from 10 months to eight years. Thomas, 25, from St. Louis, pleaded guilty but withdrew his plea and is the first defendant to go to court-martial. Lopezromo, who was not part of the squad on its late-night mission, said he saw nothing wrong with what Thomas did. "I don't see it as an execution, sir," he told the judge. "I see it as killing the enemy." He said Marines consider all Iraqi men part of the insurgency. Lopezromo and two other Marines were charged in August with assaulting an Iraqi two weeks before the killing that led to charges against Thomas and the others. Charges against all three were later dropped. Thomas' attorneys have said he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury from his combat duty in Fallouja in 2004. They have argued that Thomas believed he was following a lawful order to get tougher with suspected insurgents. Prosecution witnesses testified that Thomas shot the 52-year-old man at point-blank range after he had already been shot by other Marines and was lying on the ground. Lopezromo said a procedure called "dead-checking" was routine. If Marines entered a house where a man was wounded, instead of checking to see whether he needed medical aid, they shot him to make sure he was dead, he testified. "If somebody is worth shooting once, they're worth shooting twice," he said. The jury is composed of three officers and six enlisted personnel, all of whom have served in Iraq. The trial was set to resume Monday. < http://www.twincities.com/ci_6381859?source=most_viewed > |
Posted by Botto 82 on Jul. 15 2007,4:35 pm
That stuff's great for our image abroad, isn't it.Rock on, Empire of America! Yeah!
Posted by hymiebravo on Jul. 15 2007,5:34 pm
| Quote |
| My Special Forces son who is stationed in Iraq tells me that the U.S. could win the war in Iraq |
Win it how exactly have the insurgents sign surrender documents on the deck of the Missouri ?
Posted by hymiebravo on Jul. 15 2007,5:36 pm
It would be nice if all the loud mouths that started all this BS would take responsibilty for it and quit blaming everyone else.You know shouting down anyone who said use your head.
Posted by hymiebravo on Jul. 15 2007,5:55 pm
And I certainly don't mean ANY disrespect to you or your son either.
Posted by hairhertz on Jul. 15 2007,7:15 pm
When was the last time this country tried to win a war? WW2!! Since then it has been all about containment. Sucks!
Posted by irisheyes on Jul. 15 2007,7:42 pm
| Quote (dinomac @ July 15 2007,2:38pm) |
| U.S. could win the war in Iraq (notice... I didn't say stabilize the country or fix the civil war) The soldiers say it can be won fairly quickly if we would just have the will to win!!!! |
What's our objective than? If anyone sets deadlines, or tries to set a bar for accomplishment, you and many of others will claim we're "not supporting our President, or the troops."
When we've got well over 100,000 troops in the area, many serving their 3rd tour, with mandatory extensions of tour lengths, and nearly half a trillion dollars spent (trillion with a T), when is enough a enough?
| Quote |
| Let's support our troops, by asking our Representatives and Senators to support our President, who in turn can push the military leaders to WIN this war. The soldiers say it can be won fairly quickly if we would just have the will to win!!!! |
You don't think we're supporting our troops if we disagree with the President? Would you feel the same way if Kerry were in office right now? I didn't like Kerry any better, but the main difference is that nobody would claim I was being unpatriotic for doing so than.
And lastly, not all the troops agree with you, or your son. I respect your opinion, and his, and what he's doing in Iraq, but not everyone feels the same way about this war, including those in the military.
Posted by Mamma on Jul. 16 2007,7:47 am
I suppose I am going to set myself up for an attack....but here I go anyway. I think what this mother was saying is things are not always what they look like. I know the press did the same thing during the Viet Nam war. I have no idea why Liberal posted that article he did. What does that have to do with what that mother was talking about. It really hit a raw nerve with me. I lived through that Viet Nam era and remember the Vietnamese hiding behind women and children....and then the press reporting how our guys had killed children. The Vietnamese were real good at getting things to look lilke they wanted things to look. They had no problem sending 10 and 12 year olds out to kill. Yes...it is still happening in this war! How many people want to listen to the news and see all the good that has taken place in Iraq? Isn't it much more interesting to see how many "boys" George Bush killed today?These are not "boys"...they are MEN...and they are trained to do what they are doing. I am surprised that some Nam vet hasn't been all over this topic. If the press was not slanting this war so badly, there would be much more support for the troops over there. I have talked to countless men that have returned and their spin on what is going on over there is not the same slant the press has presented to the American people.
Posted by Liberal on Jul. 16 2007,9:50 am
These neo-con kooks want people to believe that the liberals are stopping soldiers from getting tough on these people, when in fact they're already getting tough, and it hasn't gotten us anywhere.| Quote |
I lived through that Viet Nam era and remember the Vietnamese hiding behind women and children....and then the press reporting how our guys had killed children. |
How dare the press report the real story.
Posted by Mamma on Jul. 16 2007,10:09 am
How dare the press not report that they were using the women and children as shields. In fact they used the women and children much as they used their other soldiers. Women and children were also killing soldiers. I remember our troops picking up a 5 year old girl who had a leg blown off when she got tangled in a booby trap she was helping her grandfather set. He was sobbing and wanting our help. She got the help she needed.....he got what he deserved. If they are going to tell the real story, then they should include ALL the story and not just what makes for good ratings.
Posted by Liberal on Jul. 16 2007,11:27 am
| Quote |
How dare the press not report that they were using the women and children as shields. In fact they used the women and children much as they used their other soldiers. Women and children were also killing soldiers. |
So are you saying we should let the soldiers whack women and children if they don't have a clear shot at an enemy combatant?
Posted by busybee on Jul. 16 2007,11:47 am
Mamma, I'm sure what you write about does happen. However, no matter how the scenario is set up...if the innocent die at the hands of the "enemy" or the "good guy," it's difficult to justify the deaths of innocent people. That's exactly why many soldiors struggle with mental illness.
Posted by Common Citizen on Jul. 16 2007,11:56 am
| Quote (Liberal @ July 16 2007,11:27am) | ||
So are you saying we should let the soldiers whack women and children if they don't have a clear shot at an enemy combatant? |
Uh.. Yep. That's nature's way of telling the women and children to get the frack out of there if you want to live. War's a beeatch.
Posted by Botto 82 on Jul. 16 2007,12:20 pm
There are good and bad on both sides of any conflict. Google Soburo Sakai sometime. He was an okay guy, for being on the wrong side.
Google George Armstrong Custer, on the other hand. He was a POS of the highest order, and got what he deserved. Too bad his entire division had to pay for his mistakes.
Posted by MADDOG on Jul. 16 2007,1:22 pm
| Quote (Liberal @ July 16 2007,11:27am) | ||
So are you saying we should let the soldiers whack women and children if they don't have a clear shot at an enemy combatant? |
So are you saying that when the VC used women or children as human shields, they were "safe" from American fire. Even though that same woman or child could possibly later walk up to you and explode a grenade killing you?
Never had the misfortune of being there, but a fair share of my friends were. Stories are not always pleasant.
CC somes it up.
| Quote |
| Uh.. Yep. That's nature's way of telling the women and children to get the frack out of there if you want to live. War's a beeatch. |
Posted by TameThaTane on Jul. 16 2007,2:11 pm
Define what victory even means...that is...if you can. I wish I had a dollar for every post I've seen on the net from a parent claiming to have a child in the war says we can win it if only for...this or for that or the other thing. I think these posts are all BS. They're using the old fake child scenario to get their neocon views across. Actual soldiers just want to come home.
Posted by Common Citizen on Jul. 16 2007,4:05 pm
| Quote (TameThaTane @ July 16 2007,2:11pm) |
| Actual soldiers just want to come home. |
Only you would think these posts are all BS too only later add ^.
How did you come with that analysis?
Of course the soldiers would rather be home.
Posted by grassman on Jul. 16 2007,7:24 pm
A friend of mine was on a chopper in Nam and he told me about little kids rushing the chopper brandishing hand grenades. Someone once said war is hell. There is no "CLEAN" way to win a war if you have to deal with that kind of crap! These people do not live the way we do and they do not have the same idealology as we do. You have to play the hand you are delt.
Posted by busybee on Jul. 17 2007,12:48 am
| Quote |
| These neo-con kooks want people to believe that the liberals are stopping soldiers from getting tough on these people, when in fact they're already getting tough, and it hasn't gotten us anywhere. |
Without any labels it would read something like this... "Some people want to believe that negativism about the U.S. involvement in Iraq is stopping the U.S. soldiers from getting tough on the war on terror there. When in fact, no one really knows if we've gotten anywhere, what's getting done, or where we're going next." Here's what we do know...Stay the course.
Posted by Ned Kelly on Jul. 17 2007,5:10 am
| Quote (busybee @ July 17 2007,12:48am) | ||
Without any labels it would read something like this... "Some people want to believe that negativism about the U.S. involvement in Iraq is stopping the U.S. soldiers from getting tough on the war on terror there. When in fact, no one really knows if we've gotten anywhere, what's getting done, or where we're going next." Here's what we do know...Stay the course. |
The Iraq war was began with several lies, now the war is lost in the eyes of the American people and we are fools in the minds of the rest of the world.
It's not the will of the American people nor the press that is losing the Iraq war. It has been mismanaged from the very beginning by the civilian leadership in Washington. The war was won in the beginning, but then the peace was lost because leadership tried to run it like a business, with too few employees-"boots on the ground."
Put the blame where it belongs, Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld!
........ned
Posted by busybee on Jul. 17 2007,9:50 am
| Quote |
| It's not the will of the American people nor the press that is losing the Iraq war. |
I agree. Maybe I should've used the sarcasm sign, but I guess I do think some people really believe it's the negativism and the press's fault for the lack of progress in Iraq.
I find it ironic that quite often Bush is portrayed as some type of victim that hasn't been able to do his job as commander and cheif in this "war" because of lacking support...didn't he have support in the beginning? Now the problem is this,
| Quote |
| Let's support our troops, by asking our Representatives and Senators to support our President, who in turn can push the military leaders to WIN this war. The soldiers say it can be won fairly quickly if we would just have the will to win!!!! |
Bush sure doesn't seem like he cares what anyone thinks. Doesn't it make sense that if he did, he'd have pulled the troops out a long time ago, rather than sending more or extending tours? So, I have a difficult time understanding that he is sitting there saying to the U.S. military..."Listen, I got you there, you need to be there, but we just can't be too pushy here, my hands are tied."
I've posted several times on the building of the largest U.S. embassy in Iraq...something Bush wanted. There have been several issues that has basically been from lack of proper management, starting at the White House and trickling to Iraq. As far as I can see, there hasn't been anyone digging in their heels against Bush on this as far as financing and support, yet when the troops were sent to guard the new Embassy because it was ready, it wasn't even safe for them to be in their own living quarters.
"The first signs of trouble, according to the cable, emerged when the kitchen staff tried to cook the inaugural meal in the new guard base on May 15. Some appliances did not work. Workers began to get electric shocks. Then a burning smell enveloped the kitchen as the wiring began to melt.
All the food from the old guard camp -- a collection of tents -- had been carted to the new facility, in the expectation that the 1,200 guards would begin moving in the next day. But according to the cable, the electrical meltdown was just the first problem in a series of construction mistakes that soon left the base uninhabitable, including wiring problems, fuel leaks and noxious fumes in the sleeping trailers...
...The result, the cable concluded, is that the guards will continue to stay in "tents and deplorable living conditions." Officials now say that the guard base will not be ready until Aug. 1."
A 22 million dollar project the President wanted with an actual expense thus far of 592 million and our commander and cheif doesn't even know if it's livable before 1,200 guards are sent there. I guess I expect more from a leader who claims to know what's best.
Posted by dinomac on Jul. 18 2007,6:58 pm
Yes... I really have a son in the military in Iraq... who would make that up? He loves his job and knows that they can't solve all the political stuff, but they can help break down the Al Quaeda over there and not over here. And YES they would like to be home, but the majority of soldiers that I know that are serving or have served over there DO NOT want to come home until the job is DONE... whatever that means....
Posted by irisheyes on Jul. 19 2007,6:02 am
| Quote (dinomac @ July 18 2007,6:58pm) |
| the majority of soldiers that I know that are serving or have served over there DO NOT want to come home until the job is DONE... whatever that means.... |
You believe in staying until the job is DONE, but don't seem to have a clear understanding of what DONE means. What's our objective? Is it to remain at war until their are no terrorists, because we'd rather fight them there than here?