Topic: 5 Ways to Build a Fascist-Proof America
started by: nphilbro
Posted by nphilbro on Aug. 29 2009,7:29 pm
This is a long read, I know. But, it addresses points of view by nearly everyone on this board. It addresses topics from education, media, unions, war on drugs, corporations - most topics that have been on this board in recent weeks.Yes - the source is alternet, but I urge those of you who love the politics on this board to read it for it's clarity and definition on so many topics. It even helped me understand how an unemployed friend with diabetes is against healthcare reform.
QUOTE
5 Ways to Build a Fascist-Proof America
By Sara Robinson, Campaign for America's Future. Posted August 27, 2009.
If we want to build a fascist-proof America for the long haul, we must stand up now for everything we believe and everything we are.
August, die she must. The town hall freak show is winding down, the media circus is packing the cameras and satellite dishes and hairspray back into the vans, and Congress is soon heading back to the relative safety of Washington.
Yet, after all the fuss and bother, they're probably no more or less resolved to pass health care reform than they were back in June, when those first delirious fevers rose like clouds of infectious mosquito nymphs hatched from a thick, overheated carpet of soggy Astroturf.
Let's hope they succeed at getting it done. But, win or lose, we're crazy to think that the goon squads formed and trained to instigate this summer's health care wars will pack it in just because the silly season is over.
Those folks have tasted power, graduated from their introductory courses in Political Bullying 101, shared some camaraderie and beer and felt the heft of their own political muscle. That was fun. Now, what do we do next? Paralyze the school board over evolution in the textbooks? Intimidate the city council into shutting down the immigrants' services center -- or beat up some immigrants, so they'll just stop using it? Vandalize the cars and houses of known liberals? Get one of our own elected sheriff, so he can deputize the rest of us and make our posse official?
Nothin' but good times ahead. Now that they're organized up and had a little practice, the possibilities for further mayhem are limited only by the boundless paranoia and unfettered fantasies of the right-wing mind.
Out at our local county fair this past weekend, the GOP booth was festooned with a wide array of buttons, T-shirts and bumper stickers proclaiming the owner's status as a "Proud Member of the Right-Wing Mob," and other similarly, um, assertively empowered sentiments.
Judging from the general belligerence of the collection on offer, that seems to be the GOP's whole political identity now. It's determined to move boldly into 2010 as the party of America's union-, immigrant-, democracy- and (if necessary) head-busting squadristi -- and it's damn proud of it all, you betcha.
* * *
How in the hell did we get here? And more to the point: How do we get back out?
The first question is depressingly easy. This is precisely where 40 years wandering in the right-wing moral, cultural and economic wilderness has left us -- and, in fact, where it was always intended to lead us.
A liberal democratic society is a complex system that's designed to be very resilient and self-correcting in the face of all kinds of extremism. But the health of that system -- especially its natural immunity to would-be attackers -- ultimately depends on just one factor: It cannot survive without people's ongoing confidence in a functioning political contract.
When it's working right, this contract guarantees the upper classes predictable, reliable wealth in return for their investments. It promises the middle class mobility, comfort and security. It ensures the working classes fair reward for fair work, chances to move ahead and protection against very real risk that they'll be forced into poverty if they can't work any more.
Generally, as long as everybody gets their piece of this constantly renegotiated deal, everybody stays invested in keeping the system going -- and a democratic society will remain upright, healthy and moving mostly forward.
For the past four decades, conservatives have done everything in their power to dismantle that essential contract, and thus destroy our mutual confidence in the fundamental agreements that allow any democratic system to function. (None dare call it treason -- but a solid case could be made.)
This isn't news: by now, most of us can recite the litany, chapter and verse, of the all the many ways they hacked away at America's essential ability to function as the Constitution intended.
But the biggest loser, as always, has been the working class -- the people whose only real power lies in their sweat and their numbers. Their faith in the promise of democratic self-government has been shattered through years of union-busting, farm foreclosures, factory exports, college grant cuts, subprime mortgage scams and all manner of betrayal, treachery, neglect and abuse.
Over in the comments threads at Orcinus, we hear from these furious folks almost every day. The way they see it, representative democracy has repeatedly failed to deliver on anything it might have once promised them. At this point, the disgust runs so deep that anybody who has other ideas -- theocracy, corporatocracy, anarchy, whaddaya got? -- has a fair shot at getting their attention.
And their outrage is so total that any target they're offered looks about as good as any other. Without that reason-strangling sense of betrayal and paralyzing fear of further loss already in place, it's hard to see how Fox News' windbags or Dick Armey's checkbook would have been able to convince these people to turn on the best chance at real government help they've been offered in decades. But with it, they're about ready to shoot at anything they're told to aim at.
America's best (and perhaps only) chance to keep the shreds of its tattered democracy intact is to get serious about cutting working Americans back into the democratic contract -- and repair their broken trust by making damn sure those promises are actually kept.
Once they're back on board, the system will begin to work again for everyone. Until then, the accelerating breakdown is just going to continue.
It's not going to be easy. Right-wing populism is riding so high among the middle and working classes right now that there's nothing progressives can say right now that they're likely to believe. So we need to let our actions do the talking -- and there are five solid places we can start that will get their attention.
First: Ironically, passing health care reform would be a colossal trust-builder, as I've argued before. The right wing knows this, which is precisely why it's recruited the very people most likely to benefit from reform to fight as their shock troops against it.
Simply seeing the government working to provide such an essential common good for everyone would shift the entire American conversation about the purposes and capabilities of government. It would go a long way toward restoring our confidence in the very idea of democracy and make it much harder for anti-democratic arguments to get traction.
Second: We need to re-establish the rule of law. You cannot have a credible democracy as long as there's so obviously one standard of economic and civil justice for the rich and well-connected, and a very different one that's designed to make victims out of everybody else.
Nobody seriously believes any more that rich or powerful people can ever be held accountable by an American court. Prosecuting the Bush administration for its assorted crimes against America and the world would make an unforgettable, inarguable statement -- both to our own citizens, and the rest of the planet -- about our renewed commitment to justice.
That would be a great start. But we'd need to follow it up with a whole series of reforms, including holding corporations fully accountable for actions that destroy the commons; ending the catastrophic "war on drugs"; giving people back their access to the courts; and restoring some proportionality to our sentencing laws, which have put millions of lower-class families into the permanent thrall of the justice system.
Third: We need to get serious about investing in education. It's well understood now that our broken health care system is right on the bottom of the barrel among industrialized countries; but most of us don't realize that our schools are in the same comparatively wretched shape.
Thomas Jefferson understood that liberal democracy is impossible without a literate, well-informed populace; and the endless parade of teabagger loonitude is precisely the kind of know-nothing nightmare he most feared.
Conservative "tax revolt" politics have been undermining American education since California's Proposition 13 passed in 1977 -- and we should draw a clear, bright line between decades of systematic defunding and the monumental failures of reason we're seeing all around us now.
Don't know much about history -- so the Christian right is busily rewriting it to argue that there's no such thing as a wall between church and state. Don't know much biology -- so fewer than half of all Americans think the theory of evolution explains our origins. Don't know much about the science book -- so we're ready to believe whatever junk science the corporate PR folks can conjure up. Don't know much about the French I took -- which has left the country insular, parochial and unable to work and play well with others in a world it purports to lead.
But the worst failure is that we went through a decades-long patch where we didn't teach civics -- and still don't much, especially in states where it's not part of the standardized tests. Which means that there are tens of millions among us who have absolutely no idea what's in the Bill of Rights, or how a law gets made, or where the limits of state power lie.
It's quite possible that if the conservatives hadn't undermined universal civics education, the right-wing talking heads would have never found an audience. Instead, what we have is a country where most people are getting their basic political education from Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.
If we want our democracy back, that has to change.
Fourth: No democracy in history has ever survived with our current levels of inequality. There's no reason for the middle and working classes to trust anything about a system that's so clearly rigged to suck money straight out of their pockets into the tax-free offshore bank accounts of the wealthy -- who, of course, turn right around and use that money to buy off our government, so they can suck up even more of our economy for themselves.
This has gone on so long that we've arrived at the endpoint where every single civic function you can name -- health care, defense, law enforcement, prisons, infrastructure development, research, media and (increasingly) education -- makes decisions not on the basis of what will best serve the common good or give taxpayers or consumers the biggest bang for the buck, but whether and how much it will pay off some well-connected corporation.
It doesn't matter what the public wants, or what makes sense, or what will save money in the long run. The bottom line is: If Halliburton or Wackenhut or United Health aren't getting their cuts, it ain't happening, period. And that's pretty much the definition of a corporatized state -- which, as we've seen, is one of the two necessary ingredients required for full-on fascism.
Restoring equality also means meaningful immigration reform. As long as there's a two-tiered employment system that lets employers sidestep wage, discrimination and safety laws by hiring undocumented workers without penalty, there's going to be a permanent trap door under the feet of American workers.
To close that door, we need to shore up the border, completely revamp our utterly dysfunctional immigration process, enforce existing workplace laws and prosecute employers who violate them, and get our current crop of undocumented immigrants on the books so the laws can be applied to them, too.
Until we do this, nobody is going to get a fair shake in the job market -- and there's no reason for working-class Americans to have any trust at all in the system's ability to deliver for them.
Finally: We need to focus on restoring our basic liberal institutions. In 2005, Chris Bowers noted that progressive ideology has always been disseminated through four major cultural drivers: the universities (and related intellectual infrastructure); unions; the media; and liberal religious organizations. Knowing this, conservatives set out back in the 1970s to undermine all four of these institutions -- and over time, they've largely succeeded in blunting their historic capacity to disseminate and perpetuate the progressive worldview.
But change is on the way.
The new GI Bill, like the previous one, is likely to create an expansive renaissance in American university education, restoring vigor and diversity to our academic and intellectual community.
The Employee Free Choice Act, if passed, will help unions regain their role as the voice and political muscle of the working and middle classes.
Bloggers have formed the core of a new progressive media that's calling the corporate media to account, and slowly forcing it to change its one-sided ways.
On the other hand, there's still considerable misunderstanding and confusion within our own camp about the essential role liberal religion should play in lending heart and spirit to the progressive resurgence. With a few notable exceptions (Tom Paine, Robert Ingersoll), American progressivism has always drawn its most compelling moral voices from the ranks of Catholics, Jews, Quakers, Unitarians and Universalists, and a wide collection of social-gospel evangelicals.
And even now, the vast majority of Americans -- on both ends of the spectrum -- still draw their political ethics straight out of their personal religious beliefs. As Bowers points out, we need those voices if we're going to succeed.
Fascism is so dangerous precisely because it speaks to its believers in the language of emotion, populism, purity, redemption and enduring values. Nobody on the progressive side knows how to speak that language -- and match that moral force and energy -- better than our own native faith groups. Secular progressives may wish it weren't true, but it is: there's simply no way we can rebuild a strong democratic system without holding up our end of a broad, new culturewide discussion about morality, meaning, priorities, passion and values. And those conversations begin most naturally in our houses of worship.
* * *
I'm well aware that this reads like a liberal wish list. And that's really my entire point.
Progressive democracy is a self-reinforcing system. Wherever you have educated citizens, thriving progressive institutions, a solid public infrastructure, fair courts and a relatively level economic and social playing field, you've got prime growing conditions that lead to an expanding economy, increased rights and freedoms, and a strong collective sense of investment and confidence in the system.
Progressivism fosters the conditions that make a nation secure, peaceful, stable and virtually impervious to revolutions of all kinds. In particular, it creates a natural resistance that recognizes fascism as a mortal enemy and never fails to raise effective immune antibodies against it.
Almost every conservative policy going back to Nixon has, in one way or another, undermined our ability to mount this kind of resistance.
The emergence of corporate-backed brownshirts is a clear warning sign of that the system that keeps America progressive and free is now hitting its point of fatal breakdown. And we don't have much time: If their behavior succeeds and escalates in the coming months, we could be done for in a matter of months. By next August, this one may be remembered as the last moment of calm before the revolution.
Doing nothing is not an option. The only long-term antidote to our current wave of emergent fascism is a big, strong dose of trust-building progressive culture and politics, administered daily until the system's basic democratic functions come back on line.
If we want to build a fascist-proof America for the long haul, we must stand up now for everything we believe and everything we are.
By Sara Robinson, Campaign for America's Future. Posted August 27, 2009.
If we want to build a fascist-proof America for the long haul, we must stand up now for everything we believe and everything we are.
August, die she must. The town hall freak show is winding down, the media circus is packing the cameras and satellite dishes and hairspray back into the vans, and Congress is soon heading back to the relative safety of Washington.
Yet, after all the fuss and bother, they're probably no more or less resolved to pass health care reform than they were back in June, when those first delirious fevers rose like clouds of infectious mosquito nymphs hatched from a thick, overheated carpet of soggy Astroturf.
Let's hope they succeed at getting it done. But, win or lose, we're crazy to think that the goon squads formed and trained to instigate this summer's health care wars will pack it in just because the silly season is over.
Those folks have tasted power, graduated from their introductory courses in Political Bullying 101, shared some camaraderie and beer and felt the heft of their own political muscle. That was fun. Now, what do we do next? Paralyze the school board over evolution in the textbooks? Intimidate the city council into shutting down the immigrants' services center -- or beat up some immigrants, so they'll just stop using it? Vandalize the cars and houses of known liberals? Get one of our own elected sheriff, so he can deputize the rest of us and make our posse official?
Nothin' but good times ahead. Now that they're organized up and had a little practice, the possibilities for further mayhem are limited only by the boundless paranoia and unfettered fantasies of the right-wing mind.
Out at our local county fair this past weekend, the GOP booth was festooned with a wide array of buttons, T-shirts and bumper stickers proclaiming the owner's status as a "Proud Member of the Right-Wing Mob," and other similarly, um, assertively empowered sentiments.
Judging from the general belligerence of the collection on offer, that seems to be the GOP's whole political identity now. It's determined to move boldly into 2010 as the party of America's union-, immigrant-, democracy- and (if necessary) head-busting squadristi -- and it's damn proud of it all, you betcha.
* * *
How in the hell did we get here? And more to the point: How do we get back out?
The first question is depressingly easy. This is precisely where 40 years wandering in the right-wing moral, cultural and economic wilderness has left us -- and, in fact, where it was always intended to lead us.
A liberal democratic society is a complex system that's designed to be very resilient and self-correcting in the face of all kinds of extremism. But the health of that system -- especially its natural immunity to would-be attackers -- ultimately depends on just one factor: It cannot survive without people's ongoing confidence in a functioning political contract.
When it's working right, this contract guarantees the upper classes predictable, reliable wealth in return for their investments. It promises the middle class mobility, comfort and security. It ensures the working classes fair reward for fair work, chances to move ahead and protection against very real risk that they'll be forced into poverty if they can't work any more.
Generally, as long as everybody gets their piece of this constantly renegotiated deal, everybody stays invested in keeping the system going -- and a democratic society will remain upright, healthy and moving mostly forward.
For the past four decades, conservatives have done everything in their power to dismantle that essential contract, and thus destroy our mutual confidence in the fundamental agreements that allow any democratic system to function. (None dare call it treason -- but a solid case could be made.)
This isn't news: by now, most of us can recite the litany, chapter and verse, of the all the many ways they hacked away at America's essential ability to function as the Constitution intended.
But the biggest loser, as always, has been the working class -- the people whose only real power lies in their sweat and their numbers. Their faith in the promise of democratic self-government has been shattered through years of union-busting, farm foreclosures, factory exports, college grant cuts, subprime mortgage scams and all manner of betrayal, treachery, neglect and abuse.
Over in the comments threads at Orcinus, we hear from these furious folks almost every day. The way they see it, representative democracy has repeatedly failed to deliver on anything it might have once promised them. At this point, the disgust runs so deep that anybody who has other ideas -- theocracy, corporatocracy, anarchy, whaddaya got? -- has a fair shot at getting their attention.
And their outrage is so total that any target they're offered looks about as good as any other. Without that reason-strangling sense of betrayal and paralyzing fear of further loss already in place, it's hard to see how Fox News' windbags or Dick Armey's checkbook would have been able to convince these people to turn on the best chance at real government help they've been offered in decades. But with it, they're about ready to shoot at anything they're told to aim at.
America's best (and perhaps only) chance to keep the shreds of its tattered democracy intact is to get serious about cutting working Americans back into the democratic contract -- and repair their broken trust by making damn sure those promises are actually kept.
Once they're back on board, the system will begin to work again for everyone. Until then, the accelerating breakdown is just going to continue.
It's not going to be easy. Right-wing populism is riding so high among the middle and working classes right now that there's nothing progressives can say right now that they're likely to believe. So we need to let our actions do the talking -- and there are five solid places we can start that will get their attention.
First: Ironically, passing health care reform would be a colossal trust-builder, as I've argued before. The right wing knows this, which is precisely why it's recruited the very people most likely to benefit from reform to fight as their shock troops against it.
Simply seeing the government working to provide such an essential common good for everyone would shift the entire American conversation about the purposes and capabilities of government. It would go a long way toward restoring our confidence in the very idea of democracy and make it much harder for anti-democratic arguments to get traction.
Second: We need to re-establish the rule of law. You cannot have a credible democracy as long as there's so obviously one standard of economic and civil justice for the rich and well-connected, and a very different one that's designed to make victims out of everybody else.
Nobody seriously believes any more that rich or powerful people can ever be held accountable by an American court. Prosecuting the Bush administration for its assorted crimes against America and the world would make an unforgettable, inarguable statement -- both to our own citizens, and the rest of the planet -- about our renewed commitment to justice.
That would be a great start. But we'd need to follow it up with a whole series of reforms, including holding corporations fully accountable for actions that destroy the commons; ending the catastrophic "war on drugs"; giving people back their access to the courts; and restoring some proportionality to our sentencing laws, which have put millions of lower-class families into the permanent thrall of the justice system.
Third: We need to get serious about investing in education. It's well understood now that our broken health care system is right on the bottom of the barrel among industrialized countries; but most of us don't realize that our schools are in the same comparatively wretched shape.
Thomas Jefferson understood that liberal democracy is impossible without a literate, well-informed populace; and the endless parade of teabagger loonitude is precisely the kind of know-nothing nightmare he most feared.
Conservative "tax revolt" politics have been undermining American education since California's Proposition 13 passed in 1977 -- and we should draw a clear, bright line between decades of systematic defunding and the monumental failures of reason we're seeing all around us now.
Don't know much about history -- so the Christian right is busily rewriting it to argue that there's no such thing as a wall between church and state. Don't know much biology -- so fewer than half of all Americans think the theory of evolution explains our origins. Don't know much about the science book -- so we're ready to believe whatever junk science the corporate PR folks can conjure up. Don't know much about the French I took -- which has left the country insular, parochial and unable to work and play well with others in a world it purports to lead.
But the worst failure is that we went through a decades-long patch where we didn't teach civics -- and still don't much, especially in states where it's not part of the standardized tests. Which means that there are tens of millions among us who have absolutely no idea what's in the Bill of Rights, or how a law gets made, or where the limits of state power lie.
It's quite possible that if the conservatives hadn't undermined universal civics education, the right-wing talking heads would have never found an audience. Instead, what we have is a country where most people are getting their basic political education from Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.
If we want our democracy back, that has to change.
Fourth: No democracy in history has ever survived with our current levels of inequality. There's no reason for the middle and working classes to trust anything about a system that's so clearly rigged to suck money straight out of their pockets into the tax-free offshore bank accounts of the wealthy -- who, of course, turn right around and use that money to buy off our government, so they can suck up even more of our economy for themselves.
This has gone on so long that we've arrived at the endpoint where every single civic function you can name -- health care, defense, law enforcement, prisons, infrastructure development, research, media and (increasingly) education -- makes decisions not on the basis of what will best serve the common good or give taxpayers or consumers the biggest bang for the buck, but whether and how much it will pay off some well-connected corporation.
It doesn't matter what the public wants, or what makes sense, or what will save money in the long run. The bottom line is: If Halliburton or Wackenhut or United Health aren't getting their cuts, it ain't happening, period. And that's pretty much the definition of a corporatized state -- which, as we've seen, is one of the two necessary ingredients required for full-on fascism.
Restoring equality also means meaningful immigration reform. As long as there's a two-tiered employment system that lets employers sidestep wage, discrimination and safety laws by hiring undocumented workers without penalty, there's going to be a permanent trap door under the feet of American workers.
To close that door, we need to shore up the border, completely revamp our utterly dysfunctional immigration process, enforce existing workplace laws and prosecute employers who violate them, and get our current crop of undocumented immigrants on the books so the laws can be applied to them, too.
Until we do this, nobody is going to get a fair shake in the job market -- and there's no reason for working-class Americans to have any trust at all in the system's ability to deliver for them.
Finally: We need to focus on restoring our basic liberal institutions. In 2005, Chris Bowers noted that progressive ideology has always been disseminated through four major cultural drivers: the universities (and related intellectual infrastructure); unions; the media; and liberal religious organizations. Knowing this, conservatives set out back in the 1970s to undermine all four of these institutions -- and over time, they've largely succeeded in blunting their historic capacity to disseminate and perpetuate the progressive worldview.
But change is on the way.
The new GI Bill, like the previous one, is likely to create an expansive renaissance in American university education, restoring vigor and diversity to our academic and intellectual community.
The Employee Free Choice Act, if passed, will help unions regain their role as the voice and political muscle of the working and middle classes.
Bloggers have formed the core of a new progressive media that's calling the corporate media to account, and slowly forcing it to change its one-sided ways.
On the other hand, there's still considerable misunderstanding and confusion within our own camp about the essential role liberal religion should play in lending heart and spirit to the progressive resurgence. With a few notable exceptions (Tom Paine, Robert Ingersoll), American progressivism has always drawn its most compelling moral voices from the ranks of Catholics, Jews, Quakers, Unitarians and Universalists, and a wide collection of social-gospel evangelicals.
And even now, the vast majority of Americans -- on both ends of the spectrum -- still draw their political ethics straight out of their personal religious beliefs. As Bowers points out, we need those voices if we're going to succeed.
Fascism is so dangerous precisely because it speaks to its believers in the language of emotion, populism, purity, redemption and enduring values. Nobody on the progressive side knows how to speak that language -- and match that moral force and energy -- better than our own native faith groups. Secular progressives may wish it weren't true, but it is: there's simply no way we can rebuild a strong democratic system without holding up our end of a broad, new culturewide discussion about morality, meaning, priorities, passion and values. And those conversations begin most naturally in our houses of worship.
* * *
I'm well aware that this reads like a liberal wish list. And that's really my entire point.
Progressive democracy is a self-reinforcing system. Wherever you have educated citizens, thriving progressive institutions, a solid public infrastructure, fair courts and a relatively level economic and social playing field, you've got prime growing conditions that lead to an expanding economy, increased rights and freedoms, and a strong collective sense of investment and confidence in the system.
Progressivism fosters the conditions that make a nation secure, peaceful, stable and virtually impervious to revolutions of all kinds. In particular, it creates a natural resistance that recognizes fascism as a mortal enemy and never fails to raise effective immune antibodies against it.
Almost every conservative policy going back to Nixon has, in one way or another, undermined our ability to mount this kind of resistance.
The emergence of corporate-backed brownshirts is a clear warning sign of that the system that keeps America progressive and free is now hitting its point of fatal breakdown. And we don't have much time: If their behavior succeeds and escalates in the coming months, we could be done for in a matter of months. By next August, this one may be remembered as the last moment of calm before the revolution.
Doing nothing is not an option. The only long-term antidote to our current wave of emergent fascism is a big, strong dose of trust-building progressive culture and politics, administered daily until the system's basic democratic functions come back on line.
If we want to build a fascist-proof America for the long haul, we must stand up now for everything we believe and everything we are.
< http://www.alternet.org/rights....?page=1 >
Posted by Grinning_Dragon on Aug. 29 2009,9:31 pm
^ 
Posted by Grinning_Dragon on Aug. 29 2009,9:45 pm
Your title should have been*5 ways to turn America into a third world POS country like England*
The very article in of itself is fascist. OH the irony.
Progressive Demo
Posted by howie on Aug. 29 2009,10:13 pm
Yes but remember, we are only against the fascists that don't believe what we do.
Posted by alcitizens on Aug. 29 2009,10:15 pm
Great read.. Could not agree more. 
Posted by nphilbro on Aug. 29 2009,11:11 pm
(Grinning_Dragon @ Aug. 29 2009,7:45 pm)
QUOTE
Your title should have been
*5 ways to turn America into a third world POS country like England*
The very article in of itself is fascist. OH the irony.
Progressive Demo
*5 ways to turn America into a third world POS country like England*
The very article in of itself is fascist. OH the irony.
Progressive Demo
Your response was about as enlightened as anything the donut head "breaking wind" puts up.
Please take issue with something and tell us why - then this can be a discussion forum and not the Obama hating Nazi forum it's been the past few weeks.
Plenty of topics covered in the article, I'm sure there's one you have an opionion on, had you read it.
Posted by nphilbro on Aug. 29 2009,11:14 pm
(alcitizens @ Aug. 29 2009,8:15 pm)
QUOTE
Great read.. Could not agree more.
I can't bash GD if I don't also ask what you found interesting or insightful too.. Just trying to be fair
Posted by De NoVo on Aug. 29 2009,11:28 pm
1.Campaign for America's Future (CAF) is an American political organization of progressives. Its main issues of concern include the environment, energy independence, health care reform, Social Security, and education. The Nation editor Katrina vanden Heuvel, AFL-CIO president John Sweeney, and Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa serve on its board of directors.
2.
QUOTE
Second: We need to re-establish the rule of law. You cannot have a credible democracy as long as there's so obviously one standard of economic and civil justice for the rich and well-connected, and a very different one that's designed to make victims out of everybody else.
Nobody seriously believes any more that rich or powerful people can ever be held accountable by an American court. Prosecuting the Bush administration for its assorted crimes against America and the world would make an unforgettable, inarguable statement -- both to our own citizens, and the rest of the planet -- about our renewed commitment to justice.
That would be a great start. But we'd need to follow it up with a whole series of reforms, including holding corporations fully accountable for actions that destroy the commons; ending the catastrophic "war on drugs"; giving people back their access to the courts; and restoring some proportionality to our sentencing laws, which have put millions of lower-class families into the permanent thrall of the justice system.
Nobody seriously believes any more that rich or powerful people can ever be held accountable by an American court. Prosecuting the Bush administration for its assorted crimes against America and the world would make an unforgettable, inarguable statement -- both to our own citizens, and the rest of the planet -- about our renewed commitment to justice.
That would be a great start. But we'd need to follow it up with a whole series of reforms, including holding corporations fully accountable for actions that destroy the commons; ending the catastrophic "war on drugs"; giving people back their access to the courts; and restoring some proportionality to our sentencing laws, which have put millions of lower-class families into the permanent thrall of the justice system.
Just For Starters
Posted by alcitizens on Aug. 30 2009,12:52 am
(nphilbro @ Aug. 29 2009,11:11 pm)
QUOTE
Plenty of topics covered in the article, I'm sure there's one you have an opionion on.
The wealthy like Rupert Murdock (FOX News) have the power to change peoples perceptions of what is right and turn them into something that will only harm them. Not saying people are stupid, more like uneducated enough to know that the wealthy will lie and cheat them for every dime they can get. Their playing fun little games with other peoples lives and the only thing important in their game is to build more wealth.
What better way can you brainwash people other than TV.
Murdock and other wealthy players support the efforts of FOX News to help them gradually accumulate more and more of the worlds wealth.
Sorry Bastxrds...
Posted by nphilbro on Aug. 30 2009,1:06 am
My personal favorite is that people learn civics from Rush Limbo. Talking to "well-armed" highly opinionated friends, they don't have any idea about comittees, proposals, bills, laws, congress, senate - NOTHING! I keep hearing about the "Bill."THERE'S NO F*ING BILL ON HEALTHCARE!
But they all apparently know better than me. I was learning civics when they weren't. I'm working while they get state aid for insurance they hate because the AM radio tells them they need to. These "haters" are hand puppets with the hand in the ass, if you ask me.
Yet - they still talk about "The Bill."
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,3:06 am
(alcitizens @ Aug. 30 2009,12:52 am)
QUOTE
The wealthy like Rupert Murdock (FOX News) have the power to change peoples perceptions of what is right and turn them into something that will only harm them. Not saying people are stupid, more like uneducated enough to know that the wealthy will lie and cheat them for every dime they can get. Their playing fun little games with other peoples lives and the only thing important in their game is to build more wealth.
What better way can you brainwash people other than TV.
Murdock and other wealthy players support the efforts of FOX News to help them gradually accumulate more and more of the worlds wealth.
Sorry Bastxrds...
What better way can you brainwash people other than TV.
Murdock and other wealthy players support the efforts of FOX News to help them gradually accumulate more and more of the worlds wealth.
Sorry Bastxrds...
WTF? Are you completely retarded or is this a new incarnation of another PH personality?
You seriously choose Rupert Murdoch because of his ownership of FNC and the fact that FNC is not like most of the MSM and it's liberal bias. You have to be about as brain dead as it gets.
You want to talk about the rich getting richer let's take a look at rich. Let's look at Hollywood and the well known Liberals who espouse their political views and expect the rest of us to believe what they say simply because of their status as celebrities. These are the same people who get paid a lot more than the average citizen and they don't work nearly as hard for that money as most of us who post here do. Oh yeah and one more thing about Hollyweird.....it has more power to change people's lives and perceptions than FNC by a larger margin than FNC will ever have.
Ted Turner is decidedly rich and also decidedly left leaning. True he no longer owns CNN but I am sure he is not suffering in the soup kitchen line.
You want to talk about rich let's talk about the Kennedy family and the millions they have stashed offshore to avoid the taxes. Let's talk about how the Kennedy family has this thing about their god given right to be in public office because of the fact that they are Kennedy's.
Rupert Murdoch is one man amongst many who has made a fortune in whatever business they are in. The problem with your flawed logic about Murdoch attempting to keep the poor down while he and his rich brethren keep getting richer is that you forget that a significant number of the wealthy are also Liberals who preach about one side of life while living the very thing they condemn.
I highly doubt that people support Murdoch and FNC to help him and those like him get richer. Perhaps FNC has become the success it has because the majority of people got sick of the left wing bias of the other news channels.
From Wiki:
QUOTE
In a 2008 interview with Walt Mossberg, Murdoch was asked whether he had "anything to do with the New York Post's endorsement of Barack Obama." Without hesitating, Murdoch replied, "Yeah. He is a rock star. It's fantastic. I love what he is saying about education. I don't think he will win Florida... but he will win in Ohio and the election. I am anxious to meet him. I want to see if he will walk the walk.
I'd say that for an Australian born US Citizen this man has done quite well for himself. After reading the Wiki article on him I do not think that he is a conservative in the same manner that we see them here in the USA.
Next time Alci how bout you find something you might actually know about to discuss. Until then leave the adult conversations to the adults.
(We now return you to your regularly scheduled intelligent discussion about the original topic.)
Posted by nphilbro on Aug. 30 2009,3:12 am
Yet no posts on the article?Wareagle- what's your opinion on the healthcare bill? Should be voted on and passed by Tuesday.
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,3:41 am
I will discuss the question as well as your first post in this topic later today Nphil. Right now it is off to check the 'ol eyelids for any holes. 
Posted by Paul Harvey on Aug. 30 2009,6:32 am
The fascists in America are the neocon. This has been no secret.
Posted by Grinning_Dragon on Aug. 30 2009,8:38 am
Why respond to that socialist wet dream of an article, I could talk till I was blue in the face. Apparently people seem to be of the idea that the United States practices Democracy.I am not going into why that article is a FAIL. Until you can comprehend Constitutional construction and the vision our Founding Fathers laid forth, and why this country was founded as a Constitutional Republic and not some POS democracy, I am not going to waste my time going in circles with anybody.
Constitutional Republic = WIN
Progressiveness = FAIL.
Posted by Glad I Left on Aug. 30 2009,8:55 am
Just wondering if we took this health care reform/bill and changed it to education reform/bill, would the dems and/or lefts be all up in arms like they claim the repub/rights to be?I had an interesting conversation with a liberal former co-worker of mine on this last week. I think we put new ideas into each others heads to think about.
Might discuss later, too nice of a day out now to be on the puter...
Posted by alcitizens on Aug. 30 2009,12:38 pm
(Wareagle11B @ Aug. 30 2009,3:06 am)
QUOTE
(alcitizens @ Aug. 30 2009,12:52 am)
QUOTE
The wealthy like Rupert Murdock (FOX News) have the power to change peoples perceptions of what is right and turn them into something that will only harm them. Not saying people are stupid, more like uneducated enough to know that the wealthy will lie and cheat them for every dime they can get. Their playing fun little games with other peoples lives and the only thing important in their game is to build more wealth.
What better way can you brainwash people other than TV.
Murdock and other wealthy players support the efforts of FOX News to help them gradually accumulate more and more of the worlds wealth.
Sorry Bastxrds...
What better way can you brainwash people other than TV.
Murdock and other wealthy players support the efforts of FOX News to help them gradually accumulate more and more of the worlds wealth.
Sorry Bastxrds...
I respect that you have a right to an opinion. But its Wrong!!
Just look at the jobs lost that will "never" return. The filthy rich, conservative republican, NEOCON has moved those jobs to other countries. Are these rich bastards out of a job? No, their making more money paying less in wages and taxes and making people like you(brainwashed) love it.
Not everyone can work and not everyone can get a college degree, so what happens to them??
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,12:52 pm
(alcitizens @ Aug. 30 2009,12:38 pm)
QUOTE
I respect that you have a right to an opinion. But its Wrong!!
Just look at the jobs lost that will "never" return. The filthy rich, conservative republican, NEOCON has moved those jobs to other countries. Are these rich bastards out of a job? No, their making more money paying less in wages and taxes and making people like you(brainwashed) love it.
Not everyone can work and not everyone can get a college degree, so what happens to them??
Just look at the jobs lost that will "never" return. The filthy rich, conservative republican, NEOCON has moved those jobs to other countries. Are these rich bastards out of a job? No, their making more money paying less in wages and taxes and making people like you(brainwashed) love it.
Not everyone can work and not everyone can get a college degree, so what happens to them??
The neocons are responsible for this how? Please provide links and sources for your claims Alki or else go back to your room and continue watching Spongebob.
Posted by alcitizens on Aug. 30 2009,1:06 pm
(Wareagle11B @ Aug. 30 2009,12:52 pm)
QUOTE
Please provide links and sources for your claims Alki or else go back to your room and continue watching Spongebob.
Great question. Just go to FOX News.
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,1:35 pm
(alcitizens @ Aug. 30 2009,1:06 pm)
QUOTE
Great question. Just go to FOX News.
Once more I shall say that unless you have links and sources for your statement Alki please go back to your room and watch Spongebob while the adults are having an intelligent conversation.
Posted by Liberal on Aug. 30 2009,1:54 pm
Links and sources like the ones you used in your Hollywood diatribe?
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,1:54 pm
(nphilbro @ Aug. 30 2009,3:12 am)
QUOTE
Wareagle- what's your opinion on the healthcare bill? Should be voted on and passed by Tuesday.
Ok so here we go in the attempt to answer your question Nphil.....
Do I agree that healthcare needs to be reformed? Yes. Do I think that the government should be the one who takes it over and has the majority of the control in regards to healthcare? No.
Unlike a majority of the services we use in this country healthcare is not something that can have a price guide attached to it. When you take your car into the dealership or the mechanic of your choice you will usually be told the approximate cost of the repair BEFORE you have the work done. Most dealership shops will have a price guide posted for you to view so you have an idea of what it will cost you for new brakes, an oil change etc. Fast food places all have a price guide for you to examine BEFORE you purchase your food. The majority of the services we use in this country allow you to price shop for the best deal. Healthcare has no such opportunity due to the unknown factors of a persons ailment. You can't price shop for a doctor in the back of an ambulance via your Blackberry on the way to the hospital.
A person can't walk into the hospital and look at a price guide posted on the wall next to the receptionist for an idea of what it might cost to fix the pain he/she is feeling. It is because of this that healthcare tends to be out of control.
A person can go into a hospital thinking they are having a heart attack when in reality it could be as simple as something they ate disagreeing with their body. The hospital/clinic staff cannot just start with the "little" things though because if the patient is actually having a heart attack and that person dies then the hospital is more likely to be sued for presumed negligence. Never mind that the patient waited 3 hours before finally coming in to be checked it is still the hospitals fault.
Tort reform and the need to rein in the trial lawyers and their sue happy mentality is a good place to start. If we could hold these people accountable for their actions in the same way we hold the doctors and hospitals accountable perhaps we would see some change in the cost of healthcare.
Our society has become the pill popping, run to the hospital for every little malady, psychosomatic society it is due to other factors as well. Take Viagra as an example. I'm sorry but 20 years ago if you had that kind of issue you dealt with it. You might wind up embarrassed for it but you didn't run to the doctor for the fix. Nowadays every little symptom has a pill or medication for it.
The fix for this lies in areas other than just the medical field. Pharmaceutical companies who use their influence with the doctors and hospitals to get more of their product out the door and into the hands of the average citizen. Prevent them from making deals with various doctors and hospitals and instead focus on just selling the product on it's merits to them and it will help bring down the cost. Fewer pills pushed equals less need to continue to receive medical help for an ailment that could have probably been taken care of at home with over the counter medicines. My stepson was at ALMC the other night and when he and his mom came out the hospital recommended we get some Motrin IB 200mg to help him with his headache. Well Motrin IB 200mg is an OTC medication and Advil is the same damn thing. We have Advil at home and instead of buying the Motrin we gave him Advil AFTER I went online and showed my wife that Motrin IB and Advil are the same damn thing just different names. They didn't tell my wife this while my stepson was getting checked for a possible concussion all they told her was Motrin IB 200mg and had I not been there to know that Motrin IB and Advil were the same OTC pain medication she would have bought the Motrin IB and wasted $4 or $5 or more for something we already have at home.
Technology is another aspect of healthcare that is a major factor in cost. 20 years ago an MRI was ridiculously priced and few clinics and hospitals wanted to make use of them until they were a more proven technology. Now it is commonplace for any type of knee injury to have an MRI done and the cost has come down significantly. Unfortunately in todays society more people are likely to have the most expensive exams and tests done on them when in reality what is truly wrong is probably nothing more serious than the flu. My mom said it best...... because we will run our kids or ourselves to the hospital/clinic at the first sign of anything wrong it is no wonder that more and more people are becoming resistant to simple antibiotics and more and more susceptible to what used to be common ailments like the flu. 20+ years ago most ailments short of broken bones were dealt with through the household medicine cabinet.
Government managed, controlled, (insert euphemism here), has failed more than it has been a success. We need only look at Europe and those countries we are wanting to emulate with this forthcoming healthcare reform. If the government really wants to help they will begin to look at the other factors that have caused healthcare costs to skyrocket and start by "fixing" that first.
Posted by Liberal on Aug. 30 2009,2:01 pm
Once more I shall say that unless you have links and sources for your statement please go back to your room and watch Spongebob while the adults are having an intelligent conversation.
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,2:03 pm
(Liberal @ Aug. 30 2009,1:54 pm)
QUOTE
Links and sources like the ones you used in your Hollywood diatribe?
Why link to something that is common knowledge.
Is it not common knowledge that the most vocal of the Hollyweird elite are decidely liberal in their views? Is it not common knowledge that Hollyweird actors/actresses are some of the richest people who do less work per year when compared to the average citizen in this country?
I'm not making accusatory and unproven comments about someone nor about FNC like Alki. What I stated is common knowledge to anyone with a brain which apparently Alki lacks.
Since you feel the need for a link to prove what is common knowledge to the rest of the world here's one for you from amongst the many that can be found on google.
< Hollyweird >
Posted by alcitizens on Aug. 30 2009,4:34 pm
Will GOP regret attacks on The Times< http://www.theweek.com/bullpen....e_Times >
Is Conservative "Mogul" Rupert Murdoch Stupid
< http://www.theweek.com/bullpen/column/99619/Is_Rupert_Murdoch_stupid >
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,4:50 pm
(alcitizens @ Aug. 30 2009,12:52 am)
QUOTE
1) The wealthy like Rupert Murdock (FOX News) have the power to change peoples perceptions of what is right and turn them into something that will only harm them.
2) Not saying people are stupid, more like uneducated enough to know that the wealthy will lie and cheat them for every dime they can get.
3) Murdock and other wealthy players support the efforts of FOX News to help them gradually accumulate more and more of the worlds wealth.
2) Not saying people are stupid, more like uneducated enough to know that the wealthy will lie and cheat them for every dime they can get.
3) Murdock and other wealthy players support the efforts of FOX News to help them gradually accumulate more and more of the worlds wealth.
1) Hollyweird, the wonderful Liberal bastion that it is, has more power to change people's perceptions more than FNC could ever hope to. FNC, CNN, and MSNBC pale in comparison when it comes to changing peoples perceptions on an issue when placed in context with Hollyweird.
2) You apparently are saying just that but for the sake of argument I will agree with the latter part of that statement. People are uneducated when it comes to certain aspects of your rant.
3) Once again I highly doubt that the wealthy and rich of this country are working in coordination with FNC to help them gain more wealth. I think Ted Turner would take umbrage with your comment since he and Murdoch have been at odd's from day 1.
Other than the latter part of your rant you can bring a coherent argument to the table. One that can be debated in a rational manner. Your latter part of the argument however can leave one scratching their head as to what you mean.
Posted by Liberal on Aug. 30 2009,4:54 pm
Once more I shall say that unless you have links and sources for your statement please go back to your room and watch Spongebob while the adults are having an intelligent conversation.
Posted by alcitizens on Aug. 30 2009,4:59 pm
(Wareagle11B @ Aug. 30 2009,4:50 pm)
QUOTE
(alcitizens @ Aug. 30 2009,12:52 am)
QUOTE
1) The wealthy like Rupert Murdock (FOX News) have the power to change peoples perceptions of what is right and turn them into something that will only harm them.
2) Not saying people are stupid, more like uneducated enough to know that the wealthy will lie and cheat them for every dime they can get.
3) Murdock and other wealthy players support the efforts of FOX News to help them gradually accumulate more and more of the worlds wealth.
2) Not saying people are stupid, more like uneducated enough to know that the wealthy will lie and cheat them for every dime they can get.
3) Murdock and other wealthy players support the efforts of FOX News to help them gradually accumulate more and more of the worlds wealth.
Your jimhanson!! I know you are.. Just go on your trip and stop "tripping out" here, Mr. Mumbler.
Heres your jimmy
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,5:11 pm
QUOTE
Cable-industry legend Ted Turner has traveled the globe urging friendship instead of fighting.
He even donated $1 billion over the past nine years to the United Nations to promote world peace.
But don't ask him to share warm feelings about Rupert Murdoch, chairman of News Corp., or Time Warner Inc., which purchased Turner Broadcasting System Inc. in 1996.
"There is one person I don't like," he said of Murdoch.
Turner lambasted Murdoch - whose net worth is $7.7 billion, according to Forbes magazine.
He even donated $1 billion over the past nine years to the United Nations to promote world peace.
But don't ask him to share warm feelings about Rupert Murdoch, chairman of News Corp., or Time Warner Inc., which purchased Turner Broadcasting System Inc. in 1996.
"There is one person I don't like," he said of Murdoch.
Turner lambasted Murdoch - whose net worth is $7.7 billion, according to Forbes magazine.
In regards to your comments about the wealthy supporting the efforts of FNC to help them gain even more wealth please read the above quote. The link below will give you the full article.
< Denver Post >
I'm quite certain that after reading this article and others available on Google that Ted Turner would not be helping Murdoch with anything.
I somehow doubt that George Clooney would want to help FNC with much of anything (other than to be shut down
) seeing as he is the "King" of Liberal Hollyweird and FNC's decided right wing bias goes against his personal political beliefs.< George Clooney >
Posted by irisheyes on Aug. 30 2009,5:24 pm
(Wareagle11B @ Aug. 30 2009,1:54 pm)
QUOTE
Do I agree that healthcare needs to be reformed? Yes. Do I think that the government should be the one who takes it over and has the majority of the control in regards to healthcare? No.
Who else is going to reform health care? Do you think the insurance industry or prescription drug industry is going to reform itself in order to bring costs down? Cause I don't believe that for a second. To me, that reminds me what my Dad used to call "putting the fox in charge of the hen house."
QUOTE
healthcare is not something that can have a price guide attached to it. When you take your car into the dealership or the mechanic of your choice you will usually be told the approximate cost of the repair BEFORE you have the work done. Most dealership shops will have a price guide posted for you to view so you have an idea of what it will cost you for new brakes, an oil change etc. Fast food places all have a price guide for you to examine BEFORE you purchase your food. The majority of the services we use in this country allow you to price shop for the best deal. Healthcare has no such opportunity due to the unknown factors of a persons ailment. You can't price shop for a doctor in the back of an ambulance via your Blackberry on the way to the hospital.
Good example, but I totally disagree on a number of things. First off, health care CAN do the same thing, but currently has no motivation to. If your mechanic could get away with never giving you an estimate, but he'd just tell you what you had to pay after it was done, he would too! Actually, many mechanics do this anyway, regardless of your example. Next time your at Hy Vee walk by Mayo's Express Care. They provide services for many everyday illnesses (strep throat, flu, allergies, etc.). The charges are posted outside much like your dealership analogy. Obviously if your unconcious or needing emergency surgery, you're not going to be in a position to price shop, but in many other examples people could do it more if they were more open about prices. Things can go wrong with an operation or diagnosis, but they can go wrong with a brake job, or diagnosing what's causing your car to overheat too. If you think automotive maintenance is as simple as you described, you've had a lot better luck than me. ;)
Certainly not ever procedure is a major operation where something will probably go wrong. They could easily show prices for checkups and simple routine procedures. If something goes wrong, it goes wrong, just like with anything else.
QUOTE
Never mind that the patient waited 3 hours before finally coming in to be checked it is still the hospitals fault.
Is that an assumption on your part, or do you have an example of a hospital being held negligent by a state board because someone waited a few hours and died in the ER? I know a guy who did pass away in a very similar way as your example, and I don't remember the hospital being found at fault for anything.
Lawsuits are a lot more rare, and a lot harder to prove than what Rush or Hannity would have the public believe.
QUOTE
Tort reform and the need to rein in the trial lawyers and their sue happy mentality is a good place to start. If we could hold these people accountable for their actions in the same way we hold the doctors and hospitals accountable perhaps we would see some change in the cost of healthcare.
:Yawn: No matter how many times I prove this wrong, it keeps coming up...
Tort reform hasn't been proven to reduce costs for anyone besides the doctors or hospitals. Regardless of what they tell you, those savings DON'T get passed on to the consumer. Look at every example so far of caps enacted in states and you'll see those states have INCREASED health care costs, NOT decreased. It's a myth that's been told so many times that it's simply passed off as the truth.
If you don't believe me, I've listed numerous sources for this in the Obamacare thread. Texas is the new conservative haven for Tort reform, and yet they're health care costs have INCREASED even more than Mn since 2000.
Second, if you think that ALL doctors and hospitals are currently being held accountable for negligence, you must have a higher regard for our legal system than I do. Plantiffs have what you'd consider scumbag lawyers, and defendants have their own scumbag lawyers trying to get them off regardless of how guilty they are. It's the way of the world.
QUOTE
Take Viagra as an example. I'm sorry but 20 years ago if you had that kind of issue you dealt with it. You might wind up embarrassed for it but you didn't run to the doctor for the fix. Nowadays every little symptom has a pill or medication for it.
So, if you had prostate problems, high blood pressure or whatever else, and it started to hinder the "romance" you'd just accept the fact that you couldn't have sex for the rest of your life, or would you try to do something about it? Personally, if grandpa goes years without being able to perform and manages to find a way to cope with it for the sake of himself and the wife, more power to him.
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,6:07 pm
At last someone worthy to debate. I didn't say that the government shouldn't do something I.E. but the government is the last one who should be left in complete control of it. It will inevitably lead to more bureaucracy and the inevitable Secretary of the Whatever with the Undersecretary to the Undersecretary to the Undersecretary to the...well you get the idea here. Bureaucracy inevitable leads to delays which inevitably lead to stupid chit occurring. Let the government begin the reform and legislate the laws by which the Insurance companies, Pharmeceutical companies and others will follow. Once the legislation is in place let it work it's course without the need for any new agencies to be formed. Granted it's not a perfect thought for a fix but more governmental agencies is not the answer either.
The clinic at Hy-Vee is not designed to handle the types of things you cannot post a price list for Irish. Blood Pressure checks, minor aches and pains and the like are not hard to put a fixed price on because they do not require anything more serious than a brief exam and temp taken etc. If it more serious than that they send them to ALMC. BTW I have had mechanics try to pull fast ones on me for repairs and they get told no thanks just do what needs to be done. You can't necessarily do that in a hospital because it is your life that could be at stake and the last I checked that was not replaceable like a car or truck.
That one was merely an example whether good or bad nothing more. We all know of someone who should have gone in to the clinic/hospital sooner than they did and if they had then they would have been better off for it.
As for tort reform well I did say PERHAPS it would have an effect. Maybe not as much as I would like to think but any impact at all would be better than none. Just because we do not hear of the lawsuits does not mean they are not there. I wonder how many are settled before they get to a court of law? This society is more sue happy than any of us would care to believe. No matter how often it happens it is still a major point with any number of companies not just hospitals. Just ask McDonalds. Furthermore if it was not an issue to be concerned with then many hospitals would not need the legions of lawyers to protect them. Granted they would still need legal counsel but for other reasons.
Prostate problems and others are not quite what I meant to refer to and I used the wrong example Irish but good point and touche'. Ok so yes prostate problems are a real issue that should be brought to your doctor's attention but when you are bringing your child or yourself in for every little malady then what? We are becoming a bubble society who's resistances to the simple ailments is being broken down due to our lack of allowing our bodies to develop a resistance to the simple things.
I hope I gave you some fodder for your reply Irish
Posted by Liberal on Aug. 30 2009,6:52 pm
QUOTE
but when you are bringing your child or yourself in for every little malady then what?
For example a headache from a bump on the head that just needed some ibuprofen?
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,6:58 pm
< Political Control in D.C. >Your post while it brings some valid points that I will agree with neglects to mention that the party in control of Congress for the majority of the last 60+ years has been the Democratic party.
That same agenda to which the author of that piece expounds upon has been hindered more often than not by the same party which espouses the very Liberal ideals mentioned by the author.
Even going back 40 years as stated in the article it has still been the Democratic party that controlled congress far more than the Republican party.
Congress is that body which actually legislates and passes that legislation on to the President for his signature thus making it law. This seems to be a point that the author of that piece fails to recognize.
QUOTE
How in the hell did we get here? And more to the point: How do we get back out
One need only look in the mirror and realize that we the average citizen are as much to blame for this situation as those we have elected. We are to blame for allowing ourselves to see the supposed "good" in those who are running for elected office and then when they turn against the general populace and work for the big money corporations we still continue to re-elect them. Term limits are not the fix to this because that is why we have elections. That is a term limit. If we do not like what our elected officials are doing we can choose to elect somebody new in their place. We do not do that however and we continue to elect the same jacka$$es who then become even more entrenched in the D.C. system and thus they become harder to remove from elected office.
QUOTE
Second: We need to re-establish the rule of law. You cannot have a credible democracy as long as there's so obviously one standard of economic and civil justice for the rich and well-connected, and a very different one that's designed to make victims out of everybody else.
This applies to those who would lean to the Left as well as the Right. It is not the place for our judicial system to legislate from the bench but rather to uphold the standards of law and make sound judgments accordingly.
QUOTE
It's quite possible that if the conservatives hadn't undermined universal civics education, the right-wing talking heads would have never found an audience. Instead, what we have is a country where most people are getting their basic political education from Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.
< Article >
Considering that our education system is what it is I will call BS on this one.
QUOTE
Fourth: No democracy in history has ever survived with our current levels of inequality. There's no reason for the middle and working classes to trust anything about a system that's so clearly rigged to suck money straight out of their pockets into the tax-free offshore bank accounts of the wealthy -- who, of course, turn right around and use that money to buy off our government, so they can suck up even more of our economy for themselves.
Then hold both sides of the political spectrum accountable to this ideal and not just cherry pick at the Right wing side.
QUOTE
The emergence of corporate-backed brownshirts is a clear warning sign of that the system that keeps America progressive and free is now hitting its point of fatal breakdown.
Would this also apply to the SEIU and it's purple shirt brigade that show up at town hall meetings and use their Union muscle to quell dissent?
Again that article does raise some valid points and while this is true it is also true that the author is blinded by the biases of the Left wing rhetoric to which the author has apparently subscribed and for that reason it is an article that should be cherry picked for it's valid points and the rest tossed into the trash for it's obvious bias.
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,7:06 pm
(Liberal @ Aug. 30 2009,6:52 pm)
QUOTE
For example a headache from a bump on the head that just needed some ibuprofen?
Perhaps for a possible concussion that wound up only needing Ibuprofen and an icepack.
I'm sorry
did I fail to mention that Chad? Didn't think it was any of your concern that he may have had a concussion. 
We rarely go to ALMC for any reason unless absolutely necessary.
The point I was making in that statement was that the hospital recommended Motrin IB 200mg, a readily available OTC medication, but they failed to tell her that Advil is the same damn thing. Why would they do that unless, perhaps, they have some kind of agreement with the Pharmaceutical company to push Motrin and not Advil? I dunno but it is a thought.
Posted by Liberal on Aug. 30 2009,7:32 pm
Right, you want to piss and moan about other people and then you're taking your kid in for a headache from bumping his head? You must have good insurance.
BTW They recommended Motrin which is a brand name for Ibuprofen, that's common knowledge, don't blame them for your wife lacking it.
Posted by irisheyes on Aug. 30 2009,8:40 pm
(Wareagle11B @ Aug. 30 2009,6:07 pm)
QUOTE
I didn't say that the government shouldn't do something I.E. but the government is the last one who should be left in complete control of it.
I don't think the federal government should have complete control of it, either. But I don't have a problem with a MinnesotaCare type program for uninsured (whether it be college students, people who work someplace that doesn't offer coverage, unemployed, etc.). My biggest thing with reform is that they should have more regulation of prices and profits of HMO's, pharmaceuticals, and even health care equipment if necessary. And I'm sorry to say to some of you, but this regulation I'm in favor of would include limiting executive compensation. We don't need guys making 30 mil a year while they raise the insurance premiums and then refuse to cover things cause it gets in the way of their profit margin. I know some believe that capitalism unregulated freely never fails, but I believe it does in some rare cases. My car is a 98 with a V8 engine and 250 horsepower. I doubt I'd get near the MPG I do unless the EPA stepped in many times and pushed the automakers to increase their fuel economy. Time and time again, they don't work to improve it unless they're pressured to do so. Just an example, but sometimes regulation works well for us.
Another thing is, I think we should stop most, if not all, of the current ads that we're bombarded with on TV, magazines, and radio. Big drug companies spend more in marketing than they do in research and development, which they pass on to the consumer. If your doc or relative suggests something for your ailment, fine, but we don't need Billions of dollars spent telling us what we should take. If you want to research on your own, there's plenty of free, and much more reliable info on WebMD, books at the library, or many other places to find a new prescription to help with this or that.
QUOTE
The clinic at Hy-Vee is not designed to handle the types of things you cannot post a price list for Irish. Blood Pressure checks, minor aches and pains and the like are not hard to put a fixed price on because they do not require anything more serious than a brief exam and temp taken etc.
I mentioned they only do the easier things there, but that's just an example. A lot of the reform talk has been to push making prices more public and comparisons easier. And they definitely can give you a quote on many more things, they just choose not to unless you really call around and ask. I mentioned in another thread that I called around for a price on a simple surgical procedure years ago. They can usually give you a price, but they choose not to unless you really nag them about getting you a quote.
QUOTE
I wonder how many are settled before they get to a court of law? This society is more sue happy than any of us would care to believe. No matter how often it happens it is still a major point with any number of companies not just hospitals. Just ask McDonalds. Furthermore if it was not an issue to be concerned with then many hospitals would not need the legions of lawyers to protect them. Granted they would still need legal counsel but for other reasons.
I've known a few people who sued someone. I won't go into specifics, but I've learned a lot of things about lawsuits that I would have never expected. The way people talk, you would think you just sue for whatever and wait for a settlement. Granted, I've known a couple scumbags who would get in an accident and try to milk the insurance company for 20 or 30 grand for a fender bender. Trouble is, there are people out there with legitimate grivences against their physician, hospital, drug companies, or whatever else. For people that are permanently handicapped or killed because of someone elses negligence, I don't have much sympathy if someone sues their pants off.
And they have those legions of lawyers to bury people in paperwork and appeals. I don't think corporate lawyers have any more integrity than the personal injury lawyers you see on TV.
Posted by Wareagle11B on Aug. 30 2009,9:24 pm
I think you and I would agree more so than disagree about this subject Irish.I feel the same way that you do about such things as MNCare. It should be available as a last recourse for those who cannot afford other insurance due to whatever reason it may be. It should not be a primary means of insurance for those who have it available and can afford it through work or some other means. I also think that we should look at ways to allow for cheaper insurance through employers and one that will help the employers as well as the employees when it comes to the expense of insurance. To often the higher costs get passed onto the employee who can ill afford it.
I think that banning the mass marketing by Pharmaceutical companies is a great idea. I agree they should be developing more and advertising less.
The bad thing about regulating costs and such of HMO's is how do you set the guidelines for the various procedures? Do you set them based on a median cost for a particular region? What may cost $10k in Los Angeles may cost 1/2 that somewhere else in the country. (This is an example only) As for Insurance companies that is a mess that is in need of serious review. The medical equipment manufacturers may go along the same lines as the first part of this in that it may cost more in one part of the country for a particular item and not as much in another.
You are right that the fed can act to make life better sometimes but within the existing framework currently in place. The EPA and the guidelines it mandates for automobiles is one way. However if the EPA were serious about such things they would have worked even harder to enact better MPG economy after the oil crisis of the 70's. Yes they did enact better MPG regulation but IMO they could have pressed even harder for better MPG. I do not believe that we have a need for another government agency that will eventually inundate us with more bureaucracy and paperwork.
I also agree that executive compensation should be regulated but I think it should be done by the shareholders of the company and not so much by the government. Let the government set the guidelines and then allow for the shareholders to work within those guidelines for compensation. Oft times I think the shareholders are left out of the decision making process where CEO's and other executives are concerned. If they had more of a say in this process perhaps the CEO's and other executives would actually do what is best for the company rather than what is best for the bottom line and their wallet.
Where Lawyers are concerned I agree with the statement by Shakespeare that the lawyers should be the first killed. Well most lawyers anyway.
Posted by alcitizens on Aug. 31 2009,7:06 pm
(irisheyes @ Aug. 30 2009,5:24 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Take Viagra as an example. I'm sorry but 20 years ago if you had that kind of issue you dealt with it. You might wind up embarrassed for it but you didn't run to the doctor for the fix. Nowadays every little symptom has a pill or medication for it.
Erectile Dysfunction is now one of the leading diseases among men. Why not when they have drugs that will give men an erection for 4 frikin hours.
Is that a good thing for the ladies or is it a drug that will warp our minds into thinking jimhanson is really our messiah?
Posted by nphilbro on Aug. 31 2009,8:56 pm
W.E.- I appreciate your email on my facebook and I want to reengage. Looks like I might be heading out of town for a week due to death of a friend. I'll try to keep up on Blackberry.
Posted by Common Citizen on Sep. 01 2009,9:56 am
(nphilbro @ Aug. 30 2009,3:12 am)
QUOTE
Yet no posts on the article?
The health care bill as it stands today is crap...C R A P!!!
There is no constitutional right to health care. The government has no right to take my money for less than 25 million of our total population that is affected.
I find it funny that the author of the article talks about constitutional rights and this and that but where in the constitution is the right to have health care.
If the gubment wants to reform health care the way they want then they should pass an amendment to the constitution which needs to be voted on by every state and passed by a two-thirds majority, then on to the states for approval. If it passes then I'll stfu.
The liberals always have and always will run roughshod over the constitution and yet the author has the balls to claim the moral high ground. pfft...
nuff said...
Posted by Liberal on Sep. 01 2009,11:50 am
QUOTE
The health care bill as it stands today is crap...C R A P!!!
Could you give me a link to the bill since you've obviously read it to come to that conclusion?
Posted by Common Citizen on Sep. 01 2009,1:06 pm
You're the computer geek...do what computer geeks do best.
Posted by Liberal on Sep. 01 2009,1:12 pm
< http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf/111/AAHCA09001xml.pdf >What parts of the plan do you disagree with?
Posted by Botto 82 on Sep. 01 2009,1:13 pm
Liberal, why do you think this bill is such a good, necessary thing?Can you articulate that?
Posted by scary on Sep. 01 2009,1:24 pm
WHAT BILL?
Posted by Common Citizen on Sep. 01 2009,2:30 pm
The government describes outreach programs...how about reaching out to the 12 million that already qualify for medicaid but are not signed up under the plan. 
That would be to easy...so let's throw them in with the 40 million + uninsured pool that the donks always claim there is and take over private industry because it's just not working.
I've got news for you...The 40 million people out there that can't get health insurance doesn't exist. It's a myth. It's lie. That number is just plain bunk. To overhaul the health care industry to the extent that Obamacare will for the other 260 million is bullshit.
nuff said...
Posted by nphilbro on Sep. 01 2009,10:20 pm
There is no bill. There is the house resolution document.The bill? I love how everyone on the right is paralyzed like these goats.
Maybe they are waiting to hear when Rush tells them it's safe to get up.
Posted by Paul Harvey on Sep. 02 2009,5:39 am
This really exposes what I've been saying about Common regular Guy. That he doesn't even understand his own positions. Here's the proof.CC---The health care bill as it stands today is crap...C R A P!!!
Liberal---Could you give me a link to the bill since you've obviously read it to come to that conclusion?
CC--You're the computer geek...do what computer geeks do best.
Says it ALL. Because CC doesn't HAVE a link and has not even read the bill. He bases his opinion on pure bias in his head. Remember this whenever you engage this guy in the future. He doesn't know anything, just spouts out his dumb bias and says nuff said as if his word is the final word! LOL
Freakin' joke!
Thamks Liberal.
Posted by Common Citizen on Sep. 02 2009,11:22 am
are you serious? How many meetings have you been to on the subject. It deals with part of my profession and yes I am a card carrying member of a lobby group. NAIFA. I receive memos and updates on a weekly basis about what is going on.Because I don't have time to condense into a few sentences of what I disagree with in a 1000+ page document, that's your basis? Get real PH.
Liberal knows why many of us disagree with the bill and he knows exactly where to find the information. He's just flaming. You should be the resident expert on that.
nuff said...
Posted by Common Citizen on Sep. 02 2009,12:00 pm
Here you go QUOTE
"I think that we can use the public option to cut costs because private health insurers will have to compete with it," Franken said. "The public option also doesn't have to make a profit, so we can focus more on integrating care and coordinating health care homes and increasing quality to bring down costs."
Now you don't have to have an MBA to figure out that Franken is an idiot based on the above statement.
He states that he wants a public option to cut costs because private health insurers will have to compete with it. But then he also states that the public option does not have to make a profit.
1. No private company will be able to compete with that. So this notion that you, john q. citizen, will still have a choice in how you insure your health is full of crap. C R A P There will not be a private company around to provide you with a choice.
2. What does he mean when he states that the public option does not have to make a profit. Where in the crap, C R A P, will the money come from? The friggen money tree?
Here. Have a Hymie...
Posted by irisheyes on Sep. 02 2009,2:51 pm
(Common Citizen @ Sep. 02 2009,11:22 am)
QUOTE
It deals with part of my profession and yes I am a card carrying member of a lobby group. NAIFA. I receive memos and updates on a weekly basis about what is going on.
So, your source is an association designed to protect the jobs and profits of insurance sales and financial advisors?
Look, I know you've gotta look out for your best interests, but the NAIFA is about the furthest thing from an unbiased source you could find. They're not going to be interested in bringing health care reform, or lowering costs as much as protecting what money they get.
In my opinion, most of these lobbying organizations out there aren't fighting for what's best for the consumer. With the exception of some groups like the NRA or ACLU (who fight for Rights, not usually money), most lobbying groups will support whatever keeps the most pork or consumer spending in their area as possible.
Posted by hymiebravo on Sep. 02 2009,9:58 pm
QUOTE
Because I don't have time to condense into a few sentences
Use the time you use to change the wording and content of your backlog of posts, here.
Here have a commie:
Posted by grassman on Sep. 03 2009,5:56 am
Insurance and financiers, making money off of everyone else's money. Isn't that how the collapse of the economy happened?
Posted by Paul Harvey on Sep. 03 2009,6:07 am
Kind of. Everyone's greedy. Look at how Greedy Gabe was for one example. Owed $50K taxes on an inheritance which he refused to pay. Then forced you and me to pay more all under the direction of old white hair and the arrogant farmer with the perfect yard according Gabe. What were their idiotic names again?
Posted by Ned Kelly on Sep. 03 2009,7:29 am
(Common Citizen @ Sep. 02 2009,11:22 am)
QUOTE
are you serious? How many meetings have you been to on the subject. It deals with part of my profession and yes I am a card carrying member of a lobby group. NAIFA. I receive memos and updates on a weekly basis about what is going on.
Because I don't have time to condense into a few sentences of what I disagree with in a 1000+ page document, that's your basis? Get real PH.
Liberal knows why many of us disagree with the bill and he knows exactly where to find the information. He's just flaming. You should be the resident expert on that.
nuff said...
Because I don't have time to condense into a few sentences of what I disagree with in a 1000+ page document, that's your basis? Get real PH.
Liberal knows why many of us disagree with the bill and he knows exactly where to find the information. He's just flaming. You should be the resident expert on that.
nuff said...
So, C.C. must make his/her money selling health insurance and health savings plans? Or sitting on his/her arse telling people like us why we should let him manage our resources? C.C. must fear his/her easy money days might end!.....nuff said!.....
....ned
Posted by Common Citizen on Sep. 03 2009,9:10 am
I do not sell health insurance, Ned. It's not worth my time or energy for what you get paid. It's purely a business decision. Nothing more, nothing less. PH makes more per hour than an agent would selling a policy so do the math.NAIFA has done more to help consumers than you can ever imagine. But I forgot, you all would know that since you know exactly what NAIFA is and what NAIFA stands for.
Irisheyes, how would you know that NAIFA is not unbiased? Do you know and understand their position on healthcare reform?
Look, I don't believe lobbying groups or unions belong on the front steps of Washington, but until something is done to do away with it, I will protect my career and the products that have helped millions of americans avoid economic destitution.
Posted by Ned Kelly on Sep. 03 2009,11:01 am
(Common Citizen @ Sep. 03 2009,9:10 am)
QUOTE
I do not sell health insurance, Ned. It's not worth my time or energy for what you get paid. It's purely a business decision. Nothing more, nothing less. PH makes more per hour than an agent would selling a policy so do the math.
NAIFA has done more to help consumers than you can ever imagine. But I forgot, you all would know that since you know exactly what NAIFA is and what NAIFA stands for.
NAIFA has done more to help consumers than you can ever imagine. But I forgot, you all would know that since you know exactly what NAIFA is and what NAIFA stands for.
How has NAIFA helped consumers?..........
....ned