Topic: Will you vote yes or no for the school referendum?
started by: albertleamom
Posted by albertleamom on Aug. 21 2007,9:10 am
lets see how this is going so far
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 21 2007,9:27 am
What do you think? 
Posted by bianca on Aug. 21 2007,10:26 am
We did this "unofficial" poll 
last year and it was an overwhelming no and that was with all the TEAM propaganda and the teachers telling their students in elementary school that they needed to "get" their parents to vote yes on the referendum.Unless there's some governmental money tree that is going to blow in from Hurricane Dean, I don't see it happening again. Especially after Prescott went on tv last year and when asked what they were going to do after it was denied, he just said "we'll just try again next year."
Once again it's not that we don't want the best for our kids, that's just a way to make parents feel guilty about not saying yes. But they at least have to come up with something other than: "we'll try again next year." They can't keep waiting for handouts when the property taxes are so high now and people are still very bitter about "needing" that new highschool and "needing" that new courthouse to bring people in to boost our economy.
Most people in this town,esp. the many retired people cannot afford another hike in property taxes with no relief in sight from it for years. I was just in Wal-Mart yesterday and this little old lady came up to me and said," they have just rose their prices again, I just came here last week and this is 30 cents higher than it was then." They just can't do it, with all of their prescriptions and many of the babyboomers didn't even think about 401k so they're hurting in this town.
So when district 241 says "say yes and do it for the kids."
I say, "say no and do it for the elders in this town that have to choose between groceries or medicines already."
Posted by scorenix on Aug. 21 2007,10:55 am
| Quote (bianca @ Aug. 21 2007,10:26am) |
| So when district 241 says "say yes and do it for the kids." I say, "say no and do it for the elders in this town that have to choose between groceries or medicines already." |
Sorry, but I disagree. Two things we need to make sure is superior: security and education. Education drops in town, much like security, and you have a major problem with perception.
Regarding our administration, I must be in a minority. I think the administration is pretty good.
Posted by ICU812 on Aug. 21 2007,11:00 am
What is the current budget?
Posted by bianca on Aug. 21 2007,11:05 am
Regarding our administration 
The teachers need to be accountable for test scores and teaching. It's called a yearly review. If they do their job they should get a raise which I am sure they do.
As far as the administration and their pay, it's like Victoria Simonson or Paul Sparks. They get what they get for salaries, we can't just say if they take money away from them things would be better because that wouldn't happen.
It's not all about the administration, it's the district as a whole.
Posted by scorenix on Aug. 21 2007,11:16 am
| Quote (bianca @ Aug. 21 2007,11:05am) |
| It's not all about the administration, it's the district as a whole. |
So starve it for cash, and everything will get better? It almost sounds like punishment, not trying to get better.
The district has been starved for cash because of a governor that will not send state education money to the rural areas.
And you have people like Jim Hanson (and I am not attacking him as you will read) who say the state shouldn't send education money to towns like Albert Lea, the decisions should all be local. So taxes go up whether it's the state or local. Unless you want education to fall further back.
Do you want to invest in education? Look at our county and city. Taxes are going to soar there, and you will have little input. Why? Because we've elected people who generally cannot balance their own checkbooks (as one county commissioner expressly stated). Education does not have the luxury of increasing taxes as they see fit.
Posted by Spidey on Aug. 21 2007,11:29 am
These are "public" schools. Why are we trying to make them out to be world class private school wanna bees?The teachers complain about not getting enough pay. Go to the private sector and see if you can make it there if you think your skills are over and above the public school system.
From what I can tell, the kids are "below" average according to news reports and statistics. Are many of the teachers saying that if they get their raise they will do better? Somehow this extra money in their pockets will encourage them to actually teach our children?
Shame, shame, shame
I say we take back our public school systems ... clean house and hire teachers that don't need hummers to get to work.
Posted by bianca on Aug. 21 2007,11:49 am
Read the Trib today on the things that "could" be cut, IMO it's doable with not a lot of unreasonable cuts.
Posted by albertleamom on Aug. 21 2007,11:53 am
Good post bianca! I think ole prescott really stuck his foot in his mouth when the only other plan he had was to vote on it again. Will we continue to vote on this every year? Stop making threats and just make the cuts then! We will learn to live with it!
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 21 2007,12:01 pm
| Quote |
| Education drops in town, much like security, and you have a major problem with perception. |
LOL HUH?
What the hell does that even mean and since when does not voting for more taxes translate into "dropping education"?What the hell does THAT even mean.
It's geniuses like scorenix that wreck it for everybody.
Posted by jimhanson on Aug. 21 2007,12:10 pm
| Quote |
| And you have people like Jim Hanson (and I am not attacking him as you will read) who say the state shouldn't send education money to towns like Albert Lea, the decisions should all be local. So taxes go up whether it's the state or local. Unless you want education to fall further back. Do you want to invest in education? Look at our county and city. Taxes are going to soar there, and you will have little input. Why? Because we've elected people who generally cannot balance their own checkbooks (as one county commissioner expressly stated). Education does not have the luxury of increasing taxes as they see fit. |
Actually, if we kept the money here, we DO have "the luxury of increasing taxes as they see fit." Rather than just pouring money into a pot, we could have the kind of school system we want or need. If we thought the "Three R's" were paramount, we could have that system. If we thought sports was important, we could have that system. If we thought Vo-tech was important, we could do that. We would have LOCAL control--and funded the way WE want it. We could have the schools WE WANT TO PAY FOR. It would be true "truth in taxation."
It's delusional to think that "somebody, somewhere ELSE is going to pay" for our schools.
Posted by hockeyplayer on Aug. 21 2007,10:23 pm
Go ahead, vote no. Watch students that want to do well in life move to owattonna, rochester, etc. Sometimes we have to look at these students as future leaders. Personally, I think that this is the best way to spend our money. Don't blame the school board for the courthouse. We DID need a new High School. That old place was going on 100 years. The new high school is a state of the art facility and a spot for Albert Lea to start growing. I think that cutting sports would be an awful thing for everyone. Not only would kids not be able to play but what would the many people do on Friday nights in the fall? What would people do on Tuesday and Thursday nights in the winter without hockey games?
Crime rate would also skyrocket. Sports are the things that hold many of these student athletes together. Without sports, they'd have nothing and it is proven that drugs and alcohol would become more widely used.
Hearing all of this conversation about not being able to fund our schools really tells people where we are at as a community.
Posted by busybee on Aug. 22 2007,12:33 am
| Quote |
| Hearing all of this conversation about not being able to fund our schools really tells people where we are at as a community. |
Yeah...we're going for broke.
Posted by busybee on Aug. 22 2007,12:51 am
| Quote |
| We would have LOCAL control--and funded the way WE want it. We could have the schools WE WANT TO PAY FOR. It would be true "truth in taxation." |
Do you think that could be accomplished through chartering our public schools or are you thinking more on the lines of private schools?
Posted by busybee on Aug. 22 2007,1:21 am
| Quote |
| These are "public" schools. Why are we trying to make them out to be world class private school wanna bees? The teachers complain about not getting enough pay. Go to the private sector and see if you can make it there if you think your skills are over and above the public school system. From what I can tell, the kids are "below" average according to news reports and statistics. Are many of the teachers saying that if they get their raise they will do better? Somehow this extra money in their pockets will encourage them to actually teach our children? Shame, shame, shame I say we take back our public school systems ... |
Awesome post! I wish more people were concerned about EDUCATION and less about things like sports and the "extra's." It doesn't matter how much money we put into the public education system locally to keep every opportunity available to students, there is no evidence that giving students more options, more to do in & out of school, equals a quality education. This is just a "trend" in the public education system.
Posted by irisheyes on Aug. 22 2007,2:12 am
| Quote (hockeyplayer @ Aug. 21 2007,10:23pm) |
| Go ahead, vote no. Watch students that want to do well in life move to owattonna, rochester, etc. |
Did you just move here? They've already been doing that for a long time now. Your future projections are yesterdays news!
| Quote |
| We DID need a new High School. That old place was going on 100 years. |
Wow, a hundred years old!
The house I live in is over a hundred years old, and nobody is talking about tearing it down anytime soon. How many buildings do you think we'd have left in this town if we tore them down at that age? I'm wasn't even totally against a new high school, I just think you're logic is ridiculous.
| Quote |
| I think that cutting sports would be an awful thing for everyone. Not only would kids not be able to play but what would the many people do on Friday nights in the fall? What would people do on Tuesday and Thursday nights in the winter without hockey games? |
Why, they would smoke crack and get drunk, of course. Or at least that's what the rest of your post seems to imply pretty strongly.
| Quote |
| Crime rate would also skyrocket. Sports are the things that hold many of these student athletes together. Without sports, they'd have nothing and it is proven that drugs and alcohol would become more widely used. |
Little Johnny has two choices, Hockey, or cocaine. Any questions?
Posted by scorenix on Aug. 22 2007,3:08 am
In the next few weeks, you're going to hear Freeborn County ask to increase the tax levy by $1 million. Yeah, $1 million more this year than last year to support county government. Then the city will come along and boost the levy. Both will blame high gas, higher salaries, escalating expenditures, when what it really comes down to is the inability to handle a budget.But when the school board, unable to increase taxes like the city and county, comes calling, people complain about administrative salaries, teacher salaries and "worth". Well, how about this, is District 241 out of whack with Big Nine districts in terms of pay? No. But at the county level, you hit the "gravy" train if you get a job.
What is the purpose, locally, of an education? Do you want to see education geared toward graduating and staying in Albert Lea to work an $8 an hour job the rest of your life, or do you want to see kids further their education? I'm not in favor of cutting sports, I'm not in favor of cutting the arts and music education, and I wish they expanded foreign languages.
It's kind of like the person who says, "yep, don't know why I ever took Algebra, I mean, I never use it anyway." How many of you qualify?
Posted by Whiskero on Aug. 22 2007,8:29 am
I will repeat--We had to have a new high school and a new government center--the two essential things to bring in all these new businesses and people to help make A. Lea grow and help on taxes, etc. IT HAS NOT HAPPENED!! Now, we needed to put up lights to bring people in--IT HAS NOT HAPPENED!!When will this town come up with ideas to bring people in that doesn't cost us an arm and a leg??
Posted by dinomac on Aug. 22 2007,8:50 am
Of course... I will vote YES. There is no other choice. A "No Vote" is a vote against Albert Lea. A "Yes Vote" is FOR Albert Lea. I'm not like all the negative Nellies that want to penalize the school district for Federal and State regulations and budgets that have killed the local school districts. I want Albert Lea to grow, not die! Why are doctors leaving Albert Lea and why are doctors not coming? One of the reasons is the referendum. Why are big businesses (that Albert Lea needs to recruit) not coming to Albert Lea? One of the reasons is the referendum not passing. We need to make a choice of whether we want Albert Lea to grow or die.... what do you want it to do?
??? And don't go on about how the school district wastes money and they need to make cuts like everyone else. And yes, we have an aging community that can't afford more taxes... WE CAN'T AFFORD not to pass it. We need more businesses and a bigger tax base to help pay for the schools and the county and city, or otherwise, everyone's taxes are going to go up and up and up BECAUSE WE DON'T pass it!
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 22 2007,8:56 am
^ One of the all time dumbest posts ever! You're obviously some hack in the system dinomac. Hardly objective.
Posted by dinomac on Aug. 22 2007,9:16 am
Obviously you are one of the idiots that I was referring to!!!!!! I have nothing to do with the school system. My kids have graduated from Albert Lea. I graduated from Albert Lea. I run a successful business in town. And yes, my taxes will go up - both home and business... but so what? I want Albert Lea to succeed, not fail like you want it to! You are so negative - as is this forum as a whole. I don't know why I even posted... thought I could enlighten some people. But no... they have negative moderators running this stinkin forum. Everyone should have a right to give their opinion - just like you... but you need to use your brain.... do you have one???
Posted by Spidey on Aug. 22 2007,9:37 am
dinomac - I for one appreciate your post and your thoughts on the subject. That doesn't mean I agree with them, but it's nice to see other members of the community joining in on the conversations on this forum. We need different view points and good debates. With that said ... calling people "idiots" isn't going to help anything. Neither will calling everyone on here "negative Nellies". You need to be open to debate if you want anyone to hear your side. It can't be your way or the highway, we all know that never works.
I'm curiouse why you think everyone should always vote "yes" in order to be concidered a supporter of Albert Lea?
Posted by JeffJimenez on Aug. 22 2007,9:37 am
Thanks for the post Scorenix. My point as well. You will never get an argument from me when it comes to funding education. We need to get a slice of the pie just like the schools in the Metro area get.
Posted by dinomac on Aug. 22 2007,9:54 am
Spidey, I was heated and shouldn't have called people idiots... I apologize. And I don't believe we should vote YES everytime. But to vote NO to a referendum that just needs to be renewed is just not in anybody's interest. This isn't a new referendum to pile on top of all the taxes we have... it just replaces what we have in place to keep the schools going forward. We can't afford to go backwards!
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 22 2007,9:54 am
| Quote |
| And yes, my taxes will go up - both home and business... but so what? I want Albert Lea to succeed, |
Well if more taxes are good why isn't even more taxes better?
I wish I knew what business you had so I could make certain to not support you in any way, shape or form. You and Jim Jones need to move to Guyana and form your own cult.
Posted by scorenix on Aug. 22 2007,10:07 am
| Quote (Whiskero @ Aug. 22 2007,8:29am) |
| I will repeat--We had to have a new high school and a new government center--the two essential things to bring in all these new businesses and people to help make A. Lea grow and help on taxes, etc. IT HAS NOT HAPPENED!! Now, we needed to put up lights to bring people in--IT HAS NOT HAPPENED!! When will this town come up with ideas to bring people in that doesn't cost us an arm and a leg?? |
You won't get an argument from me on the failed initiatives to drive Albert Lea's growth. But look at how they decide to proceed: they hire a political hack with no work experience, no education, to head economic development. Sorry, if I harp on an old theme, but I cannot rationalize, at all, what the ALEDA was thinking.
When county and city government say their expenses are growing, they jump right in and raise the levy. Up goes taxes. Wait until you see what happens this year. If the school district increase bothers you, how do you feel about another $1.2 million for Freeborn County, who cannot get their act together and balance a budget with spending cuts? Or the city that increases taxes 26%, only to later say, "gee, we found another, extra $1 million, how about we spend that on a former bank building, or street lights, or, you get the picture. What will it be next year, because the increased levy to fund that extra $1 million will be kept intact?
The school district educates. You say lower schools advocates your position to cut spending. Could the result of lower scores be a district unable to adequately fund a higher level of education, or could it also be demographics. What parent who wanted their kid to go to college would condone a school district that appeals to the lowest common denominator of an adequate public education.
Your tax wrath should be targeted toward city and county, not the school district. The city and county tax escalations are the cause of voter backlash. Yet next year, candidates will run for office, and they will promise three things: (i) lower taxes, (ii) economic growth, and, (iii) greater cooperation between governmental entities. And you already know the result.
Posted by jimhanson on Aug. 22 2007,12:14 pm
Two points. The old high school is not 100 years old--that portion was torn down in the late 60s or early 70s when the new administrative offices and swimming pool were built. The oldest portion of the school was 1940.Second
| Quote |
| We need to get a slice of the pie just like the schools in the Metro area get. |
There IS NOT TAX FAIRY--where tax money comes from "somebody else." It makes NO SENSE to send money to St. Paul, and beg to get even a portion of it back.
Full disclosure--my wife is an elementary teacher, and loves to teach. She's good at it. My views may or may not reflect her views.
Public schools in the U.S. are doing a HORRIBLE job educating kids. When nearly half the kids entering college have to take some sort of remedial training, it is a horrible indictment of our public school system. We have a large percentage of kids today that are functionally illiterate, can't make change without a cash register, and have no sense of history. The U.S. is far behind many other countries when it comes to education.
Don't tell me that things will get better by throwing more money at it--if that were true, then New York City and Washington D.C. would have the BEST schools, not the worst. In fact, the reverse is true--schools in the Northern tier of states spend the least per capita (so much for "economy of scale") yet have some of the best scholastic ratings in the country. As one wag put it--"School academic achievement has less to do with school spending than with proximity to the Canadian border!)
What needs to be done? A complete overhaul of the U.S. public school system.
A. Eliminate state funding, let local districts fund their schools so they can concentrate on what is important to THEM.
B. That being said, there should be some provision for national funding. Unlike previous generations, today's populace is more mobile. It makes no sense for Minnesota to educate people that will be spending the rest of their lives elsewhere.
C. Tie the national funding to scholastic achievement. This provides the incentive for local schools to set standards. NCLB was a good first effort.
D. Tie a second level of national funding to high achievement. There is nothing like the prospect of a reward for good grades. These are the kids that will make a difference--unlike other countries, who reward their best students, we spend billions on the lowest achievers. You can't average DOWN.
E. Allow local school districts to set their own funding levels--consistent with national standards.
F. Allow nationwide open-enrollment.
G. Allow private schools--with the national funding vouchers. If parents are willing to pay for extras--whether it is extra help, extra classes, extra tutoring, or extracurricular activities, they should have the chance to do so.
Now, all we have to do is to build a desire for change by the general populace, bypassing what has been described as the most powerful lobby in the country--the National Education Assn.
Posted by JeffJimenez on Aug. 22 2007,1:44 pm
Nice post Jim!! Great ideas/proposals. Ps, I know who is paying for the Metro schools!!
Posted by Frozen in MN on Aug. 22 2007,1:47 pm
The community needs to pull together and vote yes. Education is important and our children are our future. Educational cuts are not a sign of a growing community, it is a sign that it is dieing. In the last round of cuts, many of the teachers that were cut have now left the district - these are the type of people that AL should want to keep in the community.VOTE YES.
Posted by Frozen in MN on Aug. 22 2007,1:49 pm
Dinomac -I agree with your ideas and I wish I knew what business you ran in order to support it.
Albert Lea needs more people like you.
Posted by dinomac on Aug. 22 2007,1:54 pm
We lost some of our best teachers this past year... decided it was time to move on. We need to vote YES or we will lose even more of our GOOD teachers, more of our GOOD doctors, more of our businesses and more of our graduates... who need the community to grow if we want them to stay!
Posted by Sunkissed on Aug. 22 2007,1:55 pm
For so many reasons VOTE NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe show our kids that they can't be taken advantage of!
Posted by jimhanson on Aug. 22 2007,3:16 pm
| Quote |
| We lost some of our best teachers this past year... decided it was time to move on. We need to vote YES or we will lose even more of our GOOD teachers |
I don't think we lost any good teachers because they weren't getting paid as much as the rest of the local schools. I can't think of one good teacher that has left because the local school system doesn't pay as much as other local systems. Teacher pay is not the issue--teachers here are about in the middle of the pack for pay.
The issue is the school offerings. If we want to have the "Nice to have's"--the new school, the extracurricular activities, the sports, we'll have to ante up.
If we decide that we need more emphasis on EDUCATION, then there are enough places to cut to do what we wish--the school board areas considered for cuts were posted at the beginning of this thread.
For all of the heated rhetoric, this is just a BUYING decision. Is the product being offered worth the asking price? Is the product being offered elsewhere at a better price? Is the quality of the product being offered commesurate with the price asked?
Posted by medic on Aug. 22 2007,3:54 pm
Dont forget about what they might find in your pipes when they come with that camera. If they dont like what they see and you have to fix it, how much is that goign to raise your taxes. Lets not forget the Bridge Ave project, I'm sure that wont be free.
Posted by busybee on Aug. 22 2007,5:36 pm
jimhanson... | Quote |
| Public schools in the U.S. are doing a HORRIBLE job educating kids....The U.S. is far behind many other countries when it comes to education... Don't tell me that things will get better by throwing more money at it--if that were true, then New York City and Washington D.C. would have the BEST schools, not the worst. In fact, the reverse is true--schools in the Northern tier of states spend the least per capita (so much for "economy of scale") yet have some of the best scholastic ratings in the country. What needs to be done? A complete overhaul of the U.S. public school system. |
I vote YES to that! Great ideas too!
| Quote |
| For all of the heated rhetoric, this is just a BUYING decision. Is the product being offered worth the asking price? Is the product being offered elsewhere at a better price? Is the quality of the product being offered commesurate with the price asked? |
Exactly!
Posted by busybee on Aug. 22 2007,6:08 pm
| Quote |
| The community needs to pull together and vote yes. Education is important and our children are our future. Educational cuts are not a sign of a growing community, it is a sign that it is dieing. |
We should vote yes to prove our community is growing?
Please explain. Thanks.
Posted by scorenix on Aug. 22 2007,8:45 pm
| Quote (busybee @ Aug. 22 2007,5:36pm) |
| What needs to be done? A complete overhaul of the U.S. public school system.[/quote] I vote YES to that! Great ideas too! |
And Albert Lea, by voting to gut its educational system, will be paving the way for all of America to completely overhaul U.S. public education?
Yeah, I got that happening.
Like I've said before, but no one seems to want to take this on, the County will be boosting taxes by well over $1 million this next year. The city will follow suit. They will because they can. School board is different. They have to go to the voters (and before you say, well, that should be the case - it isn't, and it isn't going to change).
So which is more efficient? County government? City government? At least our educators are, well, educated. You can get a job at the county even if you can't read. Even if you don't meet the qualifications. Well, even if there really isn't a job opening. And compared to the private sector, you will get better pay, better job security and better benefits. And you have growing influence with an ever increasing employment base.
This city and county will tax people out of the market, and your sole beef is with the education system?
Posted by cea on Aug. 22 2007,9:53 pm
| Quote (hockeyplayer @ Aug. 21 2007,10:23pm) |
| We DID need a new High School. That old place was going on 100 years. The new high school is a state of the art facility and a spot for Albert Lea to start growing. |
At the time the select few were getting all hot and bothered about the old high school the majority of the building was under 60 years old. In fact if you want to get technical about it.
Administration building built in 1968
Maintenance building built in 1939
Cap Emmons Auditorium built in 1939
Lincoln building built in 1938
Shop Building built in 1968
New Gym built in 1968
Old Gym built in 1938
Clark Street class rooms built in 1939
Media Center built in 1961
Another reason I don't feel sorry for district 241 is that they claimed the old high school cost to much to operate; what most people never heard though is that the new building is consuming almost twice as much money to operate.
Posted by hockeyplayer on Aug. 22 2007,11:31 pm
My point with that last point was not to debate the history of the old High School. Maybe i should've just left it at the place was old and needed to be replaced. Would that make people happier?Dinomac brings up some great points. It doesn't matter who everyone is mad at, we need to focus on our future. Frankly, the message that this community sends to our youth is that you are much better off taking your education and moving somewhere else with it than coming back to Albert Lea. Why would anyone want to start a family here knowing that the quality of education is going so far downhill so fast?
I look at this vote as being an opportunity for a fresh start. Let's start building this community around strong schools.
Posted by cea on Aug. 23 2007,2:27 am
Yes, but if they didn't replace the old high school they woulden't be in this situation to start with.At one time Albert Lea did have a strong school system and without jobs; no matter what, the people you want to stick around arn't goign to.
Posted by Sher-Wood on Aug. 23 2007,4:31 am
| Quote (hockeyplayer @ Aug. 21 2007,10:23pm) |
| Go ahead, vote no. Watch students that want to do well in life move to owattonna, rochester, etc. Sometimes we have to look at these students as future leaders. Personally, I think that this is the best way to spend our money. Don't blame the school board for the courthouse. We DID need a new High School. That old place was going on 100 years. The new high school is a state of the art facility and a spot for Albert Lea to start growing. I think that cutting sports would be an awful thing for everyone. Not only would kids not be able to play but what would the many people do on Friday nights in the fall? What would people do on Tuesday and Thursday nights in the winter without hockey games? Crime rate would also skyrocket. Sports are the things that hold many of these student athletes together. Without sports, they'd have nothing and it is proven that drugs and alcohol would become more widely used. Hearing all of this conversation about not being able to fund our schools really tells people where we are at as a community. |
Great post hockey player. I agree with you. Albert Lea is plump full of negitive liberal people, that do not want things to change. They all think they are going to go broke over spending a few extra dollars a year.
Lets keep the money in A.L. if the referendum does not pass the money will only go to another school district who DID have there referendum pass.
Lets think about this people!
Posted by Sunkissed on Aug. 23 2007,8:33 am
Good post medic!! Yes when they come with that little camera that will raise taxes, and the bridge st project another needless tax add on. If I were a student I would have fire behind my heels getting the hell out of this town. Voting "yes" will not change that sorry to all of you that have that pipe dream. In fact i have a feeling it will be the other way around. If the vote does go threw then many people will be moving to more affordable towns with jobs so they can pay the taxes. I for one won't be sticking around. Can't afford to stay even if I wanted to. Taxes are just way to deep here and don't seem to make much difference what they spend the money on. People are not moving to albert lea becuase of the new school, or the pretty lights down main st, or the new court house. I think we need to get the "if we build it, they will come" dream out of our heads and use the money towards things that really need it.
Posted by Whiskero on Aug. 23 2007,8:58 am
Good post Sunkissed!
Posted by medic on Aug. 23 2007,3:33 pm
We did build it and no one came!!!!!!!!!! Now what, tax us more??
Posted by Madd Max on Aug. 23 2007,3:51 pm
| Quote (Sher-Wood @ Aug. 23 2007,4:31am) |
| Albert Lea is plump full of negitive liberal people, |
Look like you need to find a dictionary and look up the meaning of Liberal and conservative. There are plenty of Liberals in town that support a referendum for our school. district.
Posted by MADDOG on Aug. 23 2007,4:07 pm
It's the helmut, MM. Look at Sher-woods helmut.
Posted by jimhanson on Aug. 23 2007,4:25 pm
| Quote |
| There are plenty of Liberals in town that support a referendum for our school. district. |
Just kidding, but when you leave yourself wide open like that.....I couldn't help it.
Posted by scorenix on Aug. 23 2007,5:29 pm
It's not an issue of Liberal or conservative, it's an issue of providing the best education given the financial resources. And if the referendum doesn't pass, are you content with the level of education that will be provided? I personally believe, and it is my opinion, that the quality of education will be quite low. And that will be a detriment to Albert Lea.There are those who protest the new school by saying they said it would bring jobs to Albert Lea. A great school system will make it more amenable, but, a new school cannot economically develop. That is a burden placed upon the city, the county, elected officials, unelected officials (including the unelected and supposedly city proposed ALEDA members). They have failed us, not the school district.
Posted by jimhanson on Aug. 23 2007,5:50 pm
You are correct, it is not liberal and conservative.How about trying this idea?
People are being asked to vote "All or Northing" on the referendum. How about asking the question like we would on this Forum. Something like:
"If we are to maintain the level of class offerings we have today, we will need to cut expenses $2 million OR raise taxes $2 Million. Here are ideas for trimming expenses. Please rank them.
(Need some help here--can anybody copy and paste the budget cutting ideas from the school board, found at < http://albertlea.k12.mn.us/district/2008-09_Budget_Reduction_Ideas.pdf >
"Alternatively, would you vote for an increased tax of"
A. Nothing
B. $500,000
C. $1,000,000
D. $1,500,000
E. $2,000,000
We need to give people a choice of cuts or increased taxes, WHAT cuts should be made, and listen to what is important to the local people.
It would take the debate away from the sacharrin but ill-defined "It's for the Children" and "It's for the community"--and on the other side, "cut administration".
I realize that we have a Representative Democracy--where we elect people to express our wishes--but that isn't working for the schools any more--people feel they have no input, and are disenfranchised and disconnected from the decision making process--that a cabal of the "right" people make decisions for them.
MOST elections give more than two choices for the voter to consider--why not a referendum? I believe that the referendum is going nowhere until people feel they have a voice in how their money is spent--and a direct poll, or multiple-choice referendum will fulfill that need.
Posted by bianca on Aug. 23 2007,5:50 pm
I think your judgement is being clouded by the fact that you don't like the other taxes that we have to pay and still a little sore about Dorman and ALEDA and so you are using this to serve a purpose other than the issue of the referendum. Just my opinion of course but what doesn't seem undoable with the proposed cuts that may not even need to be made?We never had 3 Vice Principals when we were in school making 100,000 a year and we had a much bigger graduating class than there is now.
I still think the school has had the money and the scores were down now they need to prove that the scores will go up and the quality of teaching before we give them anymore money. Out of towners aren't just looking at a "nice" highschool that offers "nice" things, they are going to be looking for scores and that's where we're lacking.
Posted by scorenix on Aug. 23 2007,6:53 pm
When we graduated in 1982, you could go to work at Wilson's and make $22,000 a year on the lines. Or you could go to college, get a degree in Accounting, and come out earning $18,000 a year, with the idea you would progress and earn more.25 years later, you can graduate and get a job at Select Foods for $18,000 a year, or go to college and get an Accounting degree and come out at $40,000+.
Back in 1982, the CEO of Hormel made around $250,000 a year, now it's in the millions.
When we graduated from high school in 1982, we didn't call our superintendent Doctor. Now it's a requirement. Principals are required to have advance degrees. And what? You think we should pay them less?
Yes, some paying jobs have regressed over the past 25 years, while others have advanced tremendously. And what they have in common is often times education.
I argue that education and security are the two most important resources in which a society should invest.
Yes, I think the county has wasted tremendous resources. And the problem is structural. Look at their annual property tax increases. In absolute dollar terms, they are growing. It's easy to say, well, 10% equates to $1 million, so next year a $1 million increase is only 9%. Our county has a structural problem, absolute tax increases are growing. $800,000 grows into $1 million, then $1.2 million. They can raise what they need, as opposed to a school district that must ask voter permission.
As to the ALEDA, I'm not sore, I'm disappointed. There is a different, and obviously I have failed to impress that upon you. Dorman was not qualified to head the ALEDA, in terms of education or experience. And Albert Lea will suffer for that. When you see me at our next class reunion, one of us will tell the other they were wrong. I hope I am wrong. I hope Dorman is successful. I hope he uses whatever he "luck" he has to help Albert Lea grow. And if he is, I will be the first to pat the backs of the ALEDA members and praise them for the vision they possessed in selecting Dorman.
But if Dorman is not successful, I would expect every Board member to resign. Not when, for $90,000 a year, they could have gotten someone experienced, someone educated, for the position.
Albert Lea faces some serious issues, and personally, I don't feel they are being addressed. You can chastise me if you want, but it's my opinion, and time will either prove me right or wrong. But if this referendum fails, it's another slamming door on Albert Lea (and they're aren't too many doors left).
Posted by JeffJimenez on Aug. 23 2007,7:19 pm
Well said Scorenix. I agree with you 100%. This has nothing to do with how much Prescott or how much money anyone makes. It is all about our children and the QUALITY of education we all should be providing for them. This community has a lot to think about in the next few months. If you vote NO, I guess I need say no more.
Posted by bianca on Aug. 23 2007,7:29 pm
So your answer for raising taxes is raising taxes. As I said before what doesn't seem doable on Mr. Prescotts list if the "supposed" referendum doesn't pass?I am not chastising you for your thoughts on Dorman and the ALEDA I just don't understand what you are trying to get across in saying all of the county and city taxes weren't up to us but now that these taxes are up to us we should say yes?
Sorry but I'm still sticking to my opinion and that is that the teachers need to be accountable for teaching our kids well enough that they can get passing scores and until that happens the gravy train shouldn't be coming in.
That school is a seashell, our kids are the pearl, and the teachers should teach them how to shine. When I see highschool cashiers not knowing how to count change for a five dollar bill in their head because they don't have a calculator in their hands I'm worried, and it happens all the time.
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 23 2007,7:48 pm
| Quote |
| It is all about our children and the QUALITY of education we all should be providing for them. |
So throwing more money at it (increased taxes) translates into quality? Since when... Hasn't happened yet.
Explain exactly how money translates into quality.
It can't be about getting a high paying job, college is that determiner. So it's about getting into a good college you say? Our kids test BELOW the average so more money hasn't helped at all. If you didn't tax everyone so much for high school they'd have more to spend on college and that's what employers look at.
Posted by JeffJimenez on Aug. 23 2007,8:00 pm
If you want to call it "throwing money", so be it. I personally do not have a problem putting my hard earned money into education. Obviously, 3T, you have issues with spending your money on other things besides weed. I put all my personal feelings aside with you 3T, your attacks on people, smart ass comments and plain disregard for anyone with whom you don't like or disagree with. After all, this is a public forum, right?. BUT, I have kids that will attend school here in Albert Lea for a long time. I want the best for them and for every kid in town. Eliminating educational programs is not the answer. Like I said before, come November we will see what is important to the members of this community.
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 23 2007,8:54 pm
Again...Explain exactly how money translates into quality.| Quote |
| I personally do not have a problem putting my hard earned money into education. |
I don't have a problem with you putting in your hard earned money either. But these referendums are about you voting for ME to put in MY money.
Also, explain why I shouldn't ban your post for TOU violation for falsely accusing me of committing a crime like illegal drug purchasing.
Posted by wildjim on Aug. 24 2007,12:01 am
First, people need to understand that this is not the same as last year. If this fails these lose dollars. This is a renewal of a referendum in place. But while I agree with some of the posts of the no's, there taking it out on kids. Sorry you don't like the new school but about half the students in 241 were not even in school when the high school opened.
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 24 2007,12:28 am
You know what? If I don't win the lotto this year I lose money too. I like the new school, in my view it was needed. What's also needed are people who can work within a budget. Your thinking is faulty. Increased property taxes does not translate into smarter kids by any stretch of the imagination. If money was all it took, parents could purchase whatever test scores they wanted for their kids.
I'm smarter than all of you combined, you should listen and learn.
Posted by Sunkissed on Aug. 24 2007,8:25 am
If this does pass in Nov do you really think we will see any changes? Sports will still go up, lunches will still go up, teachers will still get raises, this is not going to make a difference as far as I can see. As prescott said "if it passes we "may" not have to make cuts". So if it passes cuts might still have to be made. So then why vote yes?
Posted by busybee on Aug. 24 2007,8:54 am
| Quote |
| I want the best for them and for every kid in town. Eliminating educational programs is not the answer. |
Here's what I see, people take for granted that the best is what the district tells is the best. The fact is, "the best" is only another trend in describing what should be the best PHILOSOPHY used in educating students. The key words are "trend" and "should be," that does automatically mean the current system is working out to be the best benefit to students. As in the past, when some public schools decide to take a different approach in their philosophy of education (some are already doing that now) compared to the current trend, and it works, others will begin to follow.
Maybe it's my degree in education, public school teaching experiences and having 4 children that causes me to question the current trend and desire to see improvements made where progress is lacking.
I agree that putting money into our public schools is beneficial to students, however the all or nothing approach doesn't sit well with me. Neither does needing the money just to keep what we have. It's not that simple and as far as I am concerned, a school district that isn't willing or interested in prioritizing or challenging their current philosophy in order to improve their approach to education and student progress, is a district that is not searching for ways to provide a better education for the students they serve. It's a district that's following a trend, not one that's addressing the issues.
It amazes me when people sit up and take notice breifly to the fact that many of the students graduating are lacking in education, but when faced with cutting a sport or an elective, they can ramble on about the benefits of having those opportunities for students. What about the opportunity for every student to graduate with the core educational skills they need to be productive citizens of society? It seems to me the reason this isn't happening is because some in the district & some people of the community buy into blaming parents for how they parent, kids for being kids and NCLB. IMHO, this type of thinking is unacceptable excuses.
There are reasons why more students experience the greatest amount of academic growth in the elementary grades. There are reasons why after elementary school the academic growth of students begin to decline and the gap between those who "get it" and those who don't increases. To me, those are the most important issues, the issues that deserve the most attention and the most funding.
There are choices. Choices our district could choose and choices our community could be a part of that would be more beneficial to the students here. That's the attitude we need here in Albert Lea for those who want to place value in education as proof of a growing community. Being like everyone else isn't growth. Keeping things the same isn't growth.
As Jim mentioned, there is something to be said for what we want students to have and what students need to have. There is a difference.
Priorities should be placed on what students need to have first. For example, there is a need for students to improve in math and reading skills, especially in high school. I would much rather vote for a referendum that is prioritized, where the district takes the leadership role in academic achievement. Something like, "We might have to make some cuts in other "want" areas, but the students are going to benefit overall if we use this amount on improving those areas of "need."
When it comes to our community of students and their education, we should settle for nothing but the best effort towards improving the NEEDS of their education.
Posted by Liberal on Aug. 24 2007,10:10 am
I'm undecided on this, but leaning towards no. I'd be much more likely to vote yes if the school board would televise their meetings. We already have the equipment in City Hall and like the County Board the only reason they aren't televised is because they don't want the public seeing them rubber-stamp everything administration brings them.
Posted by Whiskero on Aug. 24 2007,10:35 am
What bothers me is some people are thinking that if this referendum passes, the quality of education will stay the same and/or be better.I don't believe it is the teachers fault, but has anybody had a senior write a sentence for you? The spelling and grammar is terrible! And God Forbid if they had to count money back to you from a cash register! Some have a hard time adding on a calculator even.
I don't know what is really going to help this situation, but obviously, the new school didn't.
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 24 2007,6:11 pm
This quote from Jimenez...| Quote |
| I personally do not have a problem putting my hard earned money into education. |
Really...is that true? I think you DO have a problem!
If the referendum fails are you going to write the district a check?
There's nothing holding all you parents back from making the district "better" is there. Or is it, you won't put your money where your mouth is unless you can force everyone else to pay as well?
Posted by JeffJimenez on Aug. 24 2007,9:33 pm
I will support our school system financially as long as I live in Albert Lea. PLAIN AND SIMPLE! I will continue to attend school board meetings and give our current administration support. Since I started posting on this forum, not once have I ever said I would not support District 241. That ain't no double talk pally!
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 24 2007,10:32 pm
Prove it. Show me the check..ANY CHECK you've written to the district. You haven't given them SQUAT and you know it. You're only interested in forcing me to give my money. NO ONE is stopping you do gooders from writing checks to the district. if you want to give, give till it hurts. Why do you need some referendum? Why didn't the district receive a check from all those that voted for the referendum when it failed?
Posted by JeffJimenez on Aug. 24 2007,11:22 pm
Well, I am done here. I have made my position clear. I support education. I don't have to prove anything to you Tane. Since I have never seen you at a school board meeting, you have no cred with me. I am not forcing you to do anything. You have the right to vote no, which you will. But, I want to see you go after the county and the city when they raise your taxes and not let you decide. One more thing....I before E except after C!!
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 25 2007,12:12 am
Yep...just as I suspected. You haven't given them squat. This is about you forcing others to cough up their cash. No one is stopping you from writing the district a check except YOU.
Posted by JeffJimenez on Aug. 25 2007,10:12 am
You need to move out of mommy's house and be an adult soon!
Posted by Botto 82 on Aug. 26 2007,11:27 am
| Quote (hockeyplayer @ Aug. 21 2007,10:23pm) |
| We DID need a new High School. That old place was going on 100 years. |
It's this kind of unresearched and soft-headed thinking that put 241 in its current dilemma.
The oldest parts of CHS were built in the '30's, save the Lincoln Elementary addition, which was built in the 20's, I believe. The math/science/library wing was added in 1961, and the admin/shop/new gym section in 1968. Hardly a century old.
You would have far fewer budgetary concerns if you'd have hung on to your history, as opposed to embracing the Interstate Development mindset.
Clearly, 241 has itself to blame for its budgetary woes.
Posted by bianca on Aug. 26 2007,3:35 pm
I think it's useless to even bring up whether the hs was needed or not 7 years later, we have it and now what do we do?I think jim had a good idea with his half-n-half plan and I could definitely see that working before the full asking price. But I don't see District 241 accepting that proposition, maybe you could mention it at a school board meeting Jeff and report back on their response.
I think a lot of people still hold it against Prescott for saying they "would just ask again next year" when interviewed last year, and after he said it he further put his foot in his mouth by saying that it was up to the school board. People have a hard time forgetting stupid stuff people say and he came out sounding very callous and arrogant and I think that hurt the school's chances and people's opinion of him. IMO, once people have a bad taste in their mouth over someone in this town, it's hard to shake.
I mean, if people can't stop talking about whether we needed the school or not 7-8 years later I would think they won't be forgetting that anytime soon either.
They need to put their energy into a better spokesperson that can sell an idea to the regular working class. A lot of it seems to come down to tact.
And 3T it's a public school, do you really think that people can just write out a check? TEAM spent a lot of money on the referendum advertising last year and if they could've just wrote a check I would think they would have. Whether you have kids or not, it's taxes. Everybody pays, not just a select few, that's the beauty of it.
I definitely agree on the televised school board meetings also, not everyone can make it to those meetings but if they are televised like everything else citizens can decide for themselves if the board is trying to come up with solutions and representing us the way we elected them to do. When these boards/councils don't let these meetings be televised then citizens start thinking that it's for a reason and that they really don't want people to know what is going on.
Posted by Botto 82 on Aug. 26 2007,5:14 pm
| Quote (bianca @ Aug. 26 2007,3:35pm) |
| I think it's useless to even bring up whether the hs was needed or not 7 years later, we have it and now what do we do? |
I think it's very relevant to bring up the un-needed new school. It demonstrates the thinking at the core of the problem, namely the district's inability to spend within its means.
How much is Prescott's salary? How much is spent on admin salaries now? How many of these positions could be eliminated?
Posted by Peter on Aug. 27 2007,2:37 pm
The operating or general fund budget has nothing to do with the 1998 referendum for the new high school when it comes to the schools overall budget. The public vote to fund the new school is a separate fund and cannot be used for operating. Likewise, general-operating fund money cannot be used on buildings. The state has several funds, i.e., food service, community education and etc., so funds can only be used for their designated purpose. The state also requires that a portion of your budget is used to maintain each facility. While this complicates things, each budget was designed for a purpose.
Posted by jimhanson on Aug. 27 2007,4:08 pm
Peter--thanks for the explanation. What is the general operating fund budget for the year? The budget that does not include payments and upkeep on buildings. I don't know the exact term for it, but the same budget that the proposed operating cuts would come from?What do you think of a "meet you half way" referendum proposal--"You cut a million, and we'll approve a million"?
Posted by Peter on Aug. 28 2007,6:56 pm
The General Fund (operating) is approximately $31 million. I would agree Jim that public education as a whole should be redeveloped, however, that needs to come from the state and federal governments. Each administration dictates what must be taught and don't leave much room for anything else. Yes, there are options for the extracurricular. The first place they could save the public money is to dictate what schools should exist. Right now we maintain old buildings and pay for many new buildings that should not be utilized for schools because of minimal enrollments, but no politician will address that issue. Put the money into education and not buildings unless needed.
Posted by wildjim on Aug. 29 2007,12:03 am
I have a hard time following some of the "logic". Some of you seem to think that you will somehow hurt Root and Prescott by voting no. If that is the average level of thoght process no wonder Albert Lea does not grow. They will both make more next year either way. The last time I saw Prescott's salary it was low compared to big nine (I would argue that we don't belong in the big nine) schools and others in the area. Do you really think the local board can control the cost of a Sup? Dream on. But if you are happy with sub par schools then go hire the cheapest one you can get. Just stop bitcxxx about the town not producing high wage jobs. Study the issue then vote yes or no as you see fit. Try to approach this using reason and logic and not some emotional rant that reflects poorly on the community.
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 29 2007,12:43 am
Do you mean like you just did?
Posted by jimhanson on Aug. 29 2007,9:33 am
Peter--thank you for the answer on the budget. You also bring up a great point on which schools SHOULD be open--like U.S. "Base Closures", no politician wants to be the one to close a local facility.Putting money into education, instead of buildings and extracurriculars!
Posted by Botto 82 on Aug. 29 2007,10:58 am
No kidding. Screw the Big 9.Athletic programs do not provide useful skills to graduates who still can't make change at McFood. School is about learning, not about who gets to hang with the Star Quarterback, or the Homecoming Queen. It should be about preparing kids for life, and about matching them with viable career paths.
Posted by hmmmnoidea on Aug. 29 2007,11:50 am
You know what lets get to the point our kids education. Do you want them to have a good one? I do I could careless about the big 9 all the other activities that they can do, if parents want their children in it let them pay for it. Keep it out of the budget period. I had the misfortune(fortune) of working with a 7th grader at the fair this year. We had to help her make change using quarters. Get real my 7 year old can do this. This is not a child that is being mainstreamed for a learning disability she just simply can’t count change, but she can be in cheerleading and any other activity that her mom can sign her up for. I think it’s a royal shame that she got past the 3rd grade and can’t count out simple change using dollar bills and quarters. Who do we blame the teachers the parents, school board I don’t know but there is NO reason for this to happen. If a few extra dollars a year would fix this problem yes I would pay it. But let’s focus on the education of our children and not extra activities
Posted by busybee on Aug. 29 2007,2:19 pm
I really like what I've been reading! to all of you that are looking at what students need! Now, the question is...what if anything can be done about it?
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 29 2007,2:25 pm
Homeowners without kids should be able to opt out of paying their house tax portion that goes to the school district.
Posted by Counterfeit Fake on Aug. 29 2007,2:33 pm
I agree. Schools are falling too far away from the 3 r's. There is less time spent on focusing kids energies on getting the basics down and more time throwing buckets of crap at the wall and seeing what sticks. More fundamentals, less extracurriculars!
Posted by MADDOG on Aug. 29 2007,3:12 pm
| Quote (wildjim @ Aug. 29 2007,12:03am) |
| Try to approach this using reason and logic and not some emotional rant that reflects poorly on the community. |
As the old addage goes...We will if they do.
Posted by Peter on Aug. 29 2007,9:52 pm
You talk about the 3R's, however, the state and federal government set the education requirements. They go so far as to require that a school will teach specific items in history, english and etc. Every administration comes on with new requirements and they continue to change each time the president or governor change. There is no consistency.
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 29 2007,10:23 pm
^Pretty sick isn't it. Can't wait for the neo-cons to make it illegal to teach evolution. When will you clowns learn. There is no fairness, justice or righteousness to any of this. It's all political hackery.
Posted by cityimage on Aug. 29 2007,11:20 pm
Jim brought up a good idea on you cut a million we will give you a million but Peter why is that idea avoided and not being responded to. You asked earlier what everybody had for ideas and why no mention to this idea? Why is the school district keeping us in the dark on what the referendum will be - how much per household on taxes, what are the parts to the referendum, etc. No information on what it pertains and the school district wants to vote in November. Why is this being kept a secret - is there something that the district doesn't want everybody to know about? Wondering if there is some explanation to the operating expenses from 1999 - which at the old high school, going up about 7 million since the new high school was built. Here is an overview year by year for current expenditures for everyone to consider - found information from this website -
< http://app.education.state.mn.us/MFRSyst....=01&dis >
99-00 25.2 million
00-01 27.0 million
01-02 27.9 million
02-03 27.7 million
03-04 30.3 million
04-05 31.1 million
05-06 32.2 million
The two biggest jumps from 99-00 to 05-06 are in the catagories of Regular Instruction and Exceptional Instruction which is about 4.6 million difference so wondering what expenses consist on those two catagories. It is hard to say that the jump is bad because not sure what is included in those two catagories because maybe the increase was a good one that helped the education for the students.
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 30 2007,1:31 am
Hehe...I got a feeling Peter won't have an answer anytime soon...
Posted by Peter on Aug. 30 2007,8:36 pm
The reason there has been no actual numbers is because it hasn't been finalized. After the legislature makes there initial decision on funding, it takes several months for the final formulas to reach the district. Also, the audit from last year must be finalized so that a five year projection can be completed. It has been known for a long time there would be a referendum, but final information must be received to know how much. Food For Thought - I believe that before long public education in MN will be watered down and we will be like many southern states. In the south and several other parts of the country the rich send their children to private school because public education hasn't been adequately funded and are required to teach all kids, no matter their desire to learn or capabilities. Private schools only take the kids they want in their system and leave the rest for public education. This creates a system of "have" and "have not" because the rich won't bother with public education. All children should have an opportunity for a quality education without money being the determining factor. I believe this is a huge concern in the future.
Posted by jimhanson on Aug. 30 2007,8:50 pm
Peter | Quote |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You talk about the 3R's, however, the state and federal government set the education requirements. They go so far as to require that a school will teach specific items in history, english and etc. Every administration comes on with new requirements and they continue to change each time the president or governor change. There is no consistency. |
Teachers spend way too much time teaching the Politically Correct issues of the day, and less time on the basics.
Each time a teacher has to take the time to teach and issue that SOMEONE thinks is important, it is that much less time spent either teaching the subjects that count, or working with kids to help get them up to speed.
The result? Kids that can't make change, that have no idea of history or geography--kids that are not connected to the world because they have no knowledge of what USED to be called "Social Studies"--knowing things about countries, natural resources, climate, people, customs, crops, imports/exports, major cities, major geographical features.
Peter is correct--we can lay many of these requirements at the feet of politicians--and the National Education Assn.--one of the largest contributors of campaign cash in the country (well, Mr. Hsu may now be #1)
There IS an alternative--private schools, parochial schools, home schools. When we did the museum in Owatonna, I was AMAZED at the number of kids in private or home schools that toured the museum. Almost without exception, they were better behaved, more inquisitive, and asked better questions than their public school counterparts.
Not neccessarily advocating for private schools--but it would be nice if we could duplicate their results in the government schools.
EDITED to incorporate Peter's observations posted at the same time as mine.
Once again, Peter is right on target. I also believe there will be explosive growth in private schools, as public schools continue to have problems turning out kids that are ready to face higher education and the workforce.
A VERY Liberal (Big L) friend (yes, I have liberal friends, he is left of our own Liberal!) is the leading publisher of glider publications in the world. He was hired by the Minneapolis school system to address kids about gliders--and aviation as a career and avocation. "The $4,000 gig cost me $200,000" he lamented. "There is no way I'm going to continue to send my kids to that school system. Not only are the kids rude and disinterested, their teachers couldn't control them. Sell your second car, move to a smaller house, eat macaroni and cheese instead of going out--but the best thing you can do for your kids is to give them a good education--and I have to say, it isn't anyplace in the Minneapolis school system."
Peter is also right on target with this quote
| Quote |
| All children should have an opportunity for a quality education without money being the determining factor. |
Posted by scorenix on Aug. 30 2007,10:08 pm
| Quote (cityimage @ Aug. 29 2007,11:20pm) |
| timeFrame=all&districtNumber=0241&districtType=01&dis]http://app.education.state.mn.us/MFRSyst....=01&dis[/URL] 99-00 25.2 million 00-01 27.0 million 01-02 27.9 million 02-03 27.7 million 03-04 30.3 million 04-05 31.1 million 05-06 32.2 million The two biggest jumps from 99-00 to 05-06 are in the catagories of Regular Instruction and Exceptional Instruction which is about 4.6 million difference so wondering what expenses consist on those two catagories. |
Works out to 4.2% per year. Anyone want to compare that to our County and City governments?
Posted by busybee on Aug. 31 2007,12:02 am
| Quote |
| You talk about the 3R's, however, the state and federal government set the education requirements. They go so far as to require that a school will teach specific items in history, english and etc. Every administration comes on with new requirements and they continue to change each time the president or governor change. There is no consistency. |
True and more changes are coming up with the 9th graders beginning in 2011.
Currently requirements for graduation are as follows, started for 9th grade 2004-05 school year:
Language arts 4 credits
Math 3 credits, including-algebra, geometry, statistics & probability
Science 3 credits, including 1 biology
Social Studies 3 1/2 credits including, U.S. history, geography, government & citizenship, world history & economics
OR
Social studies: 3 credits including U.S. history, geography, government & citizenship, world history, 1/2 credit economics taught by the social studies or business department
Foreign Language: World languages is an elective standard.
Arts 1 credit
Elective Standards: School districts must establish and offer electives for vocational & technical education, health & physical education, world languages.
Graduation Requirements for students entering 9th grade 2011-12 school year.
Language Arts: Same, no new requirements
Math: Algebra I or equivalent by the end of 8th grade and 3 credits including, 1 geometry, 1 statistics & probability and 1 algebra II credit or equivalent.
Science: 3 science credits including 1 biology, 1 chemistry or physics credit. An agriculture science credit may fullfill the additional science requirement.
Social Studies: Same, no additional requirements.
Foreign Language: Same, no additional requirements
Art: Same, no additional requirements
Elective Standards: Same, no additional requirements
It is my understanding that everything our schools offer (especially high school) above and beyond what is required would be the districts requirements for graduation, such as the number of electives needed to graduate. Please, correct me if I am wrong.
Here's the "governments" concern:
The Education Commissioner must revise required K-12 academic standards and related benchmarks in the 2006-2007 through 2010-2011 school years. The benchmarks (1) specify the knowledge and skills that students must have to satisfy the academic standards and (2) contain information used to develop graduation tests.
Despite the apparent alignment of K-12 graduation and college admissions requirements, reports on recent high school graduates show that many entering students at Minnesota’s public postsecondary institutions take remedial and developmental courses.
The percentage of students taking remedial courses varies by institution type, institution admission standards, and year of high school graduation. The percentage of students at the University of Minnesota taking remedial classes has declined from 15 percent for 1999 high school graduates to 8 percent for 2002 graduates. At four-year state universities in the Minnesota State Colleges and Universities system (MnSCU) the percentage of students taking remedial classes has increased from 21 percent for 1999 graduates to 29 percent for 2002 graduates. Two-year MnSCU colleges are open enrollment institutions with much higher rates of remedial and development course work (46 percent for 2002 high school graduates). (Source: Getting Prepared: A 2005 Report on Recent High School Graduates Who Took Developmental/Remedial Courses, Minnesota State Colleges and the University of Minnesota, August 2005,
The most recent information I could find on revenue & expenses:
2005-06 General Fund Revenues by percentage:
State: 87.3%
Federal: 5.4%
Local: 7.3%
2005-06 Use of Funds by percentage:
Instruction, Supplimental Services & school Administration: 76.7%
District Level Administration: 3%
Transportation: 5.7%
Facilities /operations: 14.6%
Where does extra curricular activities come out?
Posted by bianca on Aug. 31 2007,11:04 am
Report: Number Of Underachieving MN Schools Rises8/29/2007 Annual Yearly Report
"I would hope people ask why doesn't this match up with everything else that we're hearing," said Susan Brott, president of the Minnesota School Public Relations Association. "It sounds like we're always making excuses for things. But with the complexity of No Child Left Behind, it's kind of a challenge to get people interested in it beyond a simple number."
....Under the 2002 federal law, schools must demonstrate continual gains among students in reading and math, toward a goal of having all children at grade-level proficiency by 2014.
....the stigma alone of being on the list can make a difference, said state Education Commissioner Alice Seagren.
"They have to answer to their public if they have a school site in their district that is not making (adequate yearly progress)," she said. "There are other things besides sanctions that actually get people motivated to improve, and this reporting system is one way of doing that."
The first column reflects Title I
The second column k-12 enrollment
The third column % free and/or discount lunches
1 ALBERT LEA PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT Yes 3509 39
Not Making AYP - Needs Improvement
2 ALBERT LEA PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT HALVERSON YES 433 54 Not Making AYP
3 ALBERT LEA PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT HAWTHORNE YES 394 51 Making AYP
4ALBERT LEA PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT LAKEVIEW NO 451 36 Not Making AYP
5 ALBERT LEA PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT SIBLEY YES 396 44
Making AYP
6 ALBERT LEA PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT ALBERT LEA SENIOR HIGH NO 1238 28 Not Making AYP
7 ALBERT LEA PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT SOUTHWEST NO 502 39 Making AYP
8ALBERT LEA PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT ALBERT LEA AREA LEARNING CNTR. NO 77 58 Making AYP
------------------------------------------------------------
Read proficient Math Proficient
Spec Ed red lunch Spec Ed red lunchlast year 2007
AYP AYP
1 Yes Yes Yes Yes No No
2 No Yes No Yes Yes No
3 Yes Yes Yes Yes No Yes
4 No Yes Yes Yes Yes No
5 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
6 Yes Yes No Yes No No
7 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
8 - - - - Yes Yes
Read story in entirety:
< http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_242224615.html >
Posted by bianca on Aug. 31 2007,11:27 am
According to AL Tribune: Friday 8/31/07....For Freeborn County students, Albert Lea is the only school district labeled by the Minnesota Department of Education as not meeting AYP levels and needs improvement based on 2007 data.
....This is the third year that ALHS has not met AYP standards.
....Federal law requires schools and districts not meeting AYP to notify parents of students. Parents can then choose to enroll their students at the same school or transfer to another school within the district that is meeting standards. If a child stays at the same school then tutoring is to be made available in math and reading.
If a school or district does not meet AYP two or more years in a row then the district is labeled in “improvement status” with the Department of Education. The school must then write a plan to increase achievement, focusing more resources on students achieving proficiency in math and reading.
**What's wrong with this picture??**
Posted by jimhanson on Aug. 31 2007,12:45 pm
And some will suggest that the answer is to THROW MORE MONEY AT IT.
Posted by TameThaTane on Aug. 31 2007,12:50 pm
It's funny how not one of the people who wanted to throw more money at it wrote the district a check when the referendum failed.
Posted by busybee on Aug. 31 2007,5:53 pm
I don't see the school district even addressing the issue of NCLB and where they fit in. I remember Prescott saying that A.L. actually did pretty good when you put all the numbers together. I know there's a lot of controversy about NCLB. Maybe it is an unrealistic expectation for all students to meet, but the goal to attempt getting them there certainly isn't.
That's what frustrates me about the district. NCLB is real, it's here and it needs to be dealt with. The referendum they wanted last year and will attempt again this year does not reflect concern for the issue. Simply put, they want money to keep things the same because that's the only option they can come up with. What would be so wrong with prioritizing (making cuts where they can) and asking for some money to go towards NCLB progress? When money gets tight, difficult choices have to be made. Once again...when everything is a priority, nothing is.
My biggest fear in this referendum passing is "for the kids." NCLB is not in focus. There is no assurance that the district intends to deal with inadequate progress. So, where will our kids be if sanctions are put into place from the lack of progress?
Posted by Peter on Aug. 31 2007,6:08 pm
Wait until you receive all the information on testing and where the district failed. It is unfair to compare some districts with smaller districts because the number of students in a subgroup is 20. That means that small schools don't fail because they don't have at least 20 in a group. The paper today stated that a district could fail because of ethnic groups (English Language Learners) and special education. Again, many schools don't have at least 20 in a group, so they are not required to make AYP. Larger schools have a greater challenge.
Posted by bianca on Sep. 04 2007,8:07 am
QUOTE
It is unfair to compare some districts with smaller districts because the number of students in a subgroup is 20.
Then don't compare them, the problem is District 241 whether compared to some other district is irrelevant. We, District 241, FAILED to come up in scores for THREE years in a row. Rather than try to figure out how they are going to get a referendum to pass should maybe just be "tabled" and all of that effort go into teaching and figuring out HOW to stop failing.
For starters maybe they can stop having reps like yourself try to "make excuses". This isn't just the first year this has happened so you can't just try to sweep it under the rug AGAIN. It's been three years in a row and the excuses are growing tiresome. Obviously there is something wrong here in OUR district that needs to be addressed.
Furthermore:
QUOTE
The paper today stated that a district could fail because of ethnic groups (English Language Learners) and special education.
This tactic/biased statement infuriates me, besides the fact that the district sounds sooo discriminatory when they bring it up. By the chart, special ed and the red./free lunch populations MADE their reading and math proficiency as a whole in the district. The instructors work hard on getting the students ready for those tests. Give these students the credit they deserve instead of trying to further "outcast" them from the rest of the population.
QUOTE
"I would hope people ask why doesn't this match up with everything else that we're hearing," said Susan Brott, president of the Minnesota School Public Relations Association. "It sounds like we're always making excuses for things. But with the complexity of No Child Left Behind, it's kind of a challenge to get people interested in it beyond a simple number."
EXACTLY!!!!!
Posted by bianca on Sep. 04 2007,8:17 am
Posted by bianca on Sep. 04 2007,5:43 pm
Ok, I've tried to fix my initial post three times. I finally fixed the initial post but then I couldn't erase my two fix-up posts after that. Hard to believe that I can be so computer illiterate while my brother is a computer genius.
Posted by scorenix on Sep. 04 2007,6:19 pm
And today the county set a tax levy that will increase county taxes by $1 million for 2008. Following, of course, years of steadily accelerating the amount of money needed. Have a problem? Well, hire someone, and pass the salary onto the taxing public. Because when you run for office or re-election, simply say: (i) you'll work to increase cooperation with the city and see where you can combine services, (2) you'll fight to end the runaway tax increases, and, (3) you'll work to promote economic growth in the community. (There is a fourth, but I'll save that for later).
So why are you so upset about a cash strapped school district that cannot raise the taxes necessary, a state that has reduced its level of education support, while the city and county run rampant with tax increases?
Posted by bianca on Sep. 04 2007,8:16 pm
You always have a way of going on your own little tangent about city /county taxes as though that has something to do with the referendum. The school has had money, they did have a referendum that passed and the school district still FAILED their AYP.
Do I like city/county taxes? About as much as anyone else does but saying the city and the county gets this much money so the school should get our money too is asinine to say the least. The progress reports are there for a reason, to make schools accountable for our students progress or lack there of.
QUOTE
So why are you so upset about a cash strapped school district
Because our students aren't getting the progress needed and it is the THIRD year in a row and the "cash strapped school district" needs to spend time not money on teaching and trying to work within their budget!
Based on your reasoning I assume that you are trying to say we give the money to the city and county so what not give to the school district also?
Are you for real?!
Posted by scorenix on Sep. 04 2007,8:51 pm
Not at all.What I am saying is there is this indictment against the school district for asking for more money. At its basic level, citizens should support education and security at their local level.
The school district has to come to the voters to request more money. The city and the county do not. And yet the city/county tax increases are crushing, because the city (on its massive beautification program) and the county (unable to get its house in order) are not properly dealing with structural problems. The real issue is with local conditions, and the school district is more a sympton, not a cause, of those problems.
Economic development has failed to generate sustainable growth in household income in Freeborn County. At the same time, population growth has been negative. This weighs on the county as a whole, the city, and the school district. As the state has cut back, Freeborn County has ignored this, and instead has refused to cut back on its spending. Olmstead County, faced with state cutbacks, made a massive cut to its budget. Freeborn County borrowed. Is it any wonder that Freeborn County faces a significantly higher tax levy?
I see more of a need for the school district to raise taxes than the city or the county. But actions taken by the city and county will prevent people from approving a referendum, if only because they feel tax rates have risen enough in recent years. Albert Lea is not a wealthy town, and in fact, would like qualify as a below middle income town. There is a flight taking place from this town that is going to escalate in future years. If development does not occur, it will only hasten the departure. And what you will be left with is declining incomes and housing values (as an aside, I would advise anyone to challenge their tax assessment for next year - the growth simply isn't there), but rising taxes.
So in conclusion (wild applause here, I'm sure) I can justify the school district more than the county or the city.
Posted by TameThaTane on Sep. 04 2007,10:08 pm
That's because Gabe showed the minority how to oppress the majority for which he was financially rewarded with a new job.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 05 2007,12:15 am
Scorenix, that was a really good post. I completely agree that it's not fair how we are taxed without accountability by the city and county governments. The only real say we have is when we vote for one person to represent us and as usual in politics, what is promised never seems to happen. I don't see any progress for Albert Lea or Freeborn County, except for government, the hospital/clinic and Wal-mart. So, what can or should we do about it? As far as the school district, I'm not against a referendum for education. I'm against a referendum that is no different than any other one being asked for. Maybe you'll be willing to forgive me, but I just have to say that I would much rather vote yes for a referendum that goes 80-90% towards improving instruction than supporting sports or extra cirricular activities. If we want smart kids, than we need to be smart in our thinking about what is best, not what we want so we can be like other districts in hopes that people will want to come here because of the extra's. (That's our local governments' style of thinking)
Owatonna spent $5,944.00 per pupil for the 2005-06 school year.
Albert Lea spent $6,332.00 per pupil for the 2005-06 school year.
Austin spent $6,374.00 per pupil for the 2005-06 school year.
2006 AYP RESULTS: Owatonna-in trouble
Albert Lea-heading for trouble
Austin-avoiding trouble by passing
Same results for these schools with the 2007 AYP report.
Passing a referendum based upon needing to keep things the same is not acceptable to me and it's not fair to the students we want to support in getting the best education available. It's the lazy way out. There is no reason why the A.L. district couldn't propose some cuts and ask for the same amount of money so they can improve on instruction for educational benefits in reading, math, science, history, writing, health...every kid NEEDS that and I can't think of one student in the district that would suffer harmful affects from having more of it.
Posted by atlantic on Sep. 05 2007,1:38 am
Did anyone read the sunday's paper letter to the editor.. that recent graduate of ALHS has some decent points... everyone in the school district is there to better the lives of our children... why do the administrators need to be paid so much
Posted by bianca on Sep. 05 2007,5:14 am
I might be backwards on this but didn't the highschool go to a 4 period day to cut-back on costs? So, why this year are they back to the seven periods if it costs more money?
Scorenix- I understand completely how you feel and think about the powers that be, but we have to start somewhere. And if our students aren't up to par, according to the state, I don't think it is fair to the kids if they aren't getting the education and skills they need. Math and Reading are huge parts of our life. We NEED them for our kids to be successful. This has got to be addressed after three years in a row.
As far as the city and county.... it IS ridiculous! And you won't get an argument with me over the numerous issues concerning that. But I think the only thing we can do there is, as stated many times, when these terms come up, get rid of any of them with a "bad report card" the ones who didn't do their jobs as promised.
My opinion: Behrends and Mathiason both need to go on the county board, they have not shown that they are looking out for everyone on the whole but I think you need to have someone to replace them with someone you know will go to bat for you rather than the broken promises. Although IMO, anyone would be better than those two.
The same with the city council, get rid of Simonson's "yes" men. IMO, Rasmussen, Olson and Marin aren't doing anybody any favors. Brooks goes back and forth but he listens to his constituents. The problem he has is that he wants everyone to get their way and not everyone can.
And the Mayor......I still have yet to figure THAT one out. He stunk as a city council member so how did he get to be Mayor?!
You have very valid points scorenix, however, we aren't going to be able to solve everything right now. Their time will come then hopefully some people will have to do some canvassing of their own on to educate citizens on reasons why these people should not be re-elected. Everything is taped and televised now so it wouldn't be hard to come up with the issues/money increases they voted for. It just takes time and effort to take back our community.
And just to be clear on this. I too would much rather see my tax dollars go to education as would probably 3/4 of the city. But I want to know that I am getting something back in ways of student improvement before I invest in incidentals.
I didn't/don't feel like the "possible" proposed cuts sounded unreasonable even if the district did put them in place. Instead they use them as a "maybe this will happen if you don't pay up" sword of Damocles. But I also think jimhanson had a ratiocination: they pay half and we pay half ..... as long as we are shown HOW the district is going to address the AYP.
Posted by katlade on Sep. 05 2007,12:06 pm
My kids are out of school now, but I don't remember that any referendum passing that changed anything for them. Here is the deal - no matter what Bush states about the economy-it is not good. With rising prices from everything from gas to milk we all have to learn to budget. It is high time for the district to learn to do the same without hurting the kids that need assistance the most. Maybe they need to hire another controller that can crunch the numbers or maybe everyone on the board needs to be replaced.As far as teachers go, I have noticed that even back when I attended school and then my children attended school some of the worse teachers were the ones that had been their the longest adn probably paid the most.
Our schools are much better than many in the country so do with what we already have and when Albert Lea can manage to bring in employers that pay more than $10.00 an hour and cover health benefits maybe you can try asking for money again.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 05 2007,12:07 pm
QUOTE
I might be backwards on this but didn't the highschool go to a 4 period day to cut-back on costs?
So, why this year are they back to the seven periods if it costs more money?
So, why this year are they back to the seven periods if it costs more money?
I remember them saying a 4 period day would save money and offer a better education...longer time spent on one subject a day, more opportunities for electives.
The fact is, it wasn't ever a more cost effective way to provide instruction than a 7 period day.
As far as the benefits and effects on the delivery of education instruction, that could be disputed either way. I would rather students get subjects, such as math, all year round compared to cramming it all into one semester a year. Students in high school can go an entire year between math courses with a 4 block period day system. That's too long. It would be like the government expecting us to be proficient in preparing and filing our own taxes each year, but only giving us the information to learn how, to use and apply, for only 3 months out of the year.
QUOTE
And if our students aren't up to par, according to the state, I don't think it is fair to the kids if they aren't getting the education and skills they need. Math and Reading are huge parts of our life. We NEED them for our kids to be successful. This has got to be addressed after three years in a row.
Even before this AYP system, I haven't been satisfied with the philosophy of education, especially at the high school level.
Posted by jimhanson on Sep. 05 2007,2:13 pm
Expect TEAM to chant the mantra "It's FOR THE KIDS!"Expect more kiddie letters to the Editor--they've been prepped.
Expect to be told what a bare-bones operation the District is running--that there can't POSSIBLY be any cuts.
Expect maximum pain to be levied against parents to make them vote for the referendum--making kids walk to school, vs. ANY of the million dollars in possible cuts listed on the District website.
Though it is a lot of money, $2 million dollars is less than 6.5% of the total education budget (does not include maintenance or payment on buildings) spent by the District. Nearly every business or government agency can trim that much.
When making up your mind about cuts, remember:
Look at the District list of possible cuts, and prioritize where YOU think the cuts should occur.
Weigh each possible cut against others--"would I rather have contract custodial staff, or have my kids walk to school?"
Make the District accountable--don't settle for vague and non-specific promises about "increasing the quality of education"--ask them to set BENCHMARKS.
One highly respected commentator pointed out that we haven't answered the BIG questions--"What are we trying to accomplish?" "What kind of school are we trying to BE?" "What is important to US?"
Ask what we could do WITHOUT--the same commentator suggested that we could do without one school building--saving a substantial portion of the $2 million dollars in one shot.
Think outside the box--one item alone--4 day school week--has the potential to save nearly a million dollars a year--half the amount requested.
Think about what we owe our children--an education--not a babysitting service--some of the rationale for saving some programs is that cutting those programs would require parents to arrange child care--clearly outside the scope of what schools were designed to do.
Think of alternatives--a quid pro quo--"Show me a million dollars worth of cuts, we'll go along with a million dollar referendum"
If you believe in "business as usual"--then you have no alternative but to vote FOR the referendum. If you believe there ARE ALTERNATIVES--make your voice heard.
Posted by bianca on Sep. 05 2007,5:41 pm
How infuriating! Albert Lea school board requests Nov. vote
By Sarah Kirchner, staff writer
Wednesday, September 5, 2007 9:28 AM CDT
There will be an operating levy referendum in November with two questions for voters to answer:
The first question asks voters to approve an additional $869 per pupil per year for seven years.
This translates into an increase of $96 per year — or $8 per month — for an average household, Superintendent Dave Prescott said Tuesday. An average household, according to the Freeborn County assessor, is one where the property value is $100,000.
The second question asks for an additional $89 per pupil.
This $89 is on top of the $869, so the second question cannot have a yes vote unless the first question also has a yes vote. An additional $89 per pupil translates into $29 per year — $2.41 per month — on top of the $96 per month for an average household.
A voter can vote yes for question one or yes for both question one and question two. Question two cannot be approved alone.
The Albert Lea school board Tuesday approved the ballot language to thunderous applause from the citizen’s group Together Education Achieves More.
** Whoopy ding-dong TEAM golf clapped, now they can start writing their tax write-offs with all that money wasted on trying to manipulate people and students to vote a certain way. **
“We’re ready and eager,” said TEAM member Al Arends. Around 50 people came to the meeting to hear the school board’s decision to request a levy.
The measure approved Tuesday requests an increase in the general education revenue from the voting population for the Albert Lea School District through a levy vote Nov. 6. The new levy to be voted on will replace the existing levy, which expires at the end of the 2007-2008 school year.
If a voter says yes to both questions, then that voter is approving an additional $958 per pupil a year for seven years. That comes to an additional $125 per year — or $10.41 per month — in taxes from an average household. This figure represents the most any taxpayer will pay, as the levy will most likely decrease each year as the net tax capacity of the community will continue to grow, or the value of property of the community. There is also a reduction in students every year, which also decreases the amount of taxes collected, according to Prescott.
He said the district will send more information to community members in October about the ballot, why the district needs the referendum and how the money will be used.
A sample ballot will also be sent out with the exact look and wording of the November ballot on one side and an explanation of the facts, figures and wording on the other, Prescott said.
There are roughly 3,500 students in the Albert Lea School District. If the first question on the ballot is approved through November’s vote, the district will receive an additional $1.4 million per year for seven years. If both questions are approved, the district will see an additional total of $1.8 million per year for seven years.
The levy also includes an inflation rate adjustment clause, Prescott said. This will allow the district to get more money each year, but most likely
will not cost the taxpayer additional funds. The inflation rate adjustment is a state adjusted number. This is only the second year an inflation adjustment has been included on school levies, he said.Prescott said the levy only accounts for about 10 percent of the district’s budget. The other 90 percent is from state and federal aid. He said local contributions to the school district’s budget are low compared to a lot of other districts in the state and even in Freeborn County.
In other business, the school board:
- Directed the administration to make recommendations for reductions in programs and positions to help with budget reductions, should they be needed after the levy vote in November.
- Approved a budget amendment for the 2007-2008 school year. The adjustments to the capital budget include extra funding from the state.
Originally the district allocated $60,000 for replacement and purchase of new text books at the high school.
Because of the switch to the seven-period day, an additional $35,000 needs to be added.
THEN GO BACK TO THE FOUR PERIODS IF IT IS $35,000.00 CHEAPER
Money was also added to the budget to repair seats in the auditorium at Southwest Middle School. Another $10,000 was added to the budget.
The capital budget can only be used for capital expenses, and anything not spent this year will be kept in the reserve and used in future years.
- Approved the 2006-2007 Annual Report on Curriculum, Instruction and Student Performance. It includes a report from all the K-12 curriculum committees. This is an annual state-required report.
- Accepted a donation of $1,500 from the Alliant Energy Foundation for the Americorps Program.
- Accepted a donation of $250 from Ventura Foods for the soccer and baseball programs.
- Approved 19 nonresident agreements.
What a RACKET!!!!!!!
Apparently still business as usual and as long as they get the money it doesn't even matter if our students are under par in Math and Reading.jimhanson, I'm totally in agreement with you on this (shocking.... I know) there is absolutely no middle ground with these people. Their proposed "maybe" reductions were more than reasonable and your plan on splitting the cost between the district and the taxpayers was a great idea.
Apparently the school board and Prescott feel they shouldn't have to budge. Un-FRIGGIN-Believeable. Aaaargh!!
Posted by bianca on Sep. 05 2007,6:13 pm
I've got it, a citizens group opposing increases until remedies are proven effective. We can call it:
Vote No
Vow opposing taxes, education needs overhaul.
Posted by medic on Sep. 05 2007,7:03 pm
Reduction in students every year? So why do you need more money? Has there been a reduction every year since the last referendum? If less student a year why so top heavy. With less students should you not need less office staff? Less of everything? If A.L. is growing why are there less students? If Prescott can show A.L. is not growing in students how can anyone say A.L. is growing at all, and then why should we put money in a sinking ship??? It looks to me that we are not bringing in new people to stay in Albert Lea.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 05 2007,7:38 pm
Another great post Jim! Love those questions...
What are we trying to accomplish?
I could ramble on and on about that one. To put it as simple as I can, to encourage communities to help financially support the definition of a "normal well-rounded student" based upon a philosophy no one is even sure is working to the best benefit of students academic progress within a competitive world.
What kind of school are we trying to be?
The same as we've always been.
What is important to us?
As a community, I would hope it would be academic instruction and student progress in academics. However, it has been drilled into our brains that students have to be allowed all these other experiences in order to graduate with a better education than past students have. Is that really happening?
As a parent, I don't understand sometimes parents who say to their middle schoool/high school child..."I don't care what it is, but you have to pick one extra cirricular activity to participate in at school." And, the community responds in kind by believing kids that don't participate in any school related activities is going to be the trouble makers. Isn't that limiting a child to only experience what a district offers, nothing more. Many parents and community members readily accept the philosophy that districts know better than anyone what children are going to enjoy participating in and get the most benefit from. That's not accurate and it never has been.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 05 2007,7:42 pm
QUOTE
I've got it, a citizens group opposing increases until remedies are proven effective.
We can call it:
Vote No
Vow opposing taxes, education needs overhaul.
We can call it:
Vote No
Vow opposing taxes, education needs overhaul.
I like it.
Posted by medic on Sep. 05 2007,7:48 pm
With a different principle in each school with different ideas and training how can the kids have a chance? Why not 1 for all the schools so all the grade school have the same standards and rules, then have this continued through high school. How much would this save? Is this not for the better of the kids? Have this person rotate through each school once a week. This would rim some fat and I think even give 241 a real idea of what is going on in there schools, instead of heairng different stories from different people in charge of the same thing. Any thoughts? Does Alden have the same principle for k-12? I think they are all in the same building.
Posted by medic on Sep. 05 2007,7:50 pm
Jim when are you printing T-Shirts? I'll take 4.
Posted by scorenix on Sep. 05 2007,9:04 pm
(medic @ Sep. 05 2007,7:48)
QUOTE
Why not 1 for all the schools so all the grade school have the same standards and rules, then have this continued through high school. How much would this save? Is this not for the better of the kids?
And while we're at it, let's have one classroom per grade, with only one teacher, that way we could be consistent in what, how and why they are taught?
Posted by TameThaTane on Sep. 05 2007,10:29 pm
I don't get this:QUOTE
The Albert Lea school board Tuesday approved the ballot language to thunderous applause from the citizen’s group Together Education Achieves More.
Why are they thunderously applauding ballot language?
Posted by medic on Sep. 06 2007,3:21 pm
Scorenix, thats just silly. One class room!!
Posted by bianca on Sep. 17 2007,9:20 pm
Did everyone receive the expected TEAM propaganda postcard that came in the mail? From TEAM
923 Lakewood Ave.
To the Family of Such and Such
TEAM is a group of parents and citizens working to inform
the public about the importance of a successful upcoming 2007 school district referendum. We can't do it without YOUR support! 
YOU'VE PROVEN THE SCHOOL CAN'T EVEN DO IT WITH OUR SUPPORTA few ways you can support our students:
*Join TEAM- We meet Mondays at Brookside Education Center,
room 130, starting at 6:30 pm. (Bring your checkbooks.)*Donate to TEAM-Money will be used for brainwashing, uhhh we mean, printing costs,postage and advertising. Send contributions to TEAM, 923 Lakewood Ave, Albert Lea,MN 56007
*Vote No, No, No for our children, for our community, for our future students, who WILL be able to be proficient in Math and Reading with a new plan of action, as the old way is certainly not showing any progress, on November 6th, 2007.
*With YOUR money to help brainwash the public, we can and will be not held responsible for failing Math and Reading proficiencies in the Minnesota Annual Yearly Progress Reports.
*With YOUR support, we hope to continue to bleed you for every last dollar you have, rather than making cutbacks where needed and budgeting within our means.
Here's the best part: Beings we have failed the AYP yet again this year, we hope to continue to offer the "best"
education Albert Lea area students don't deserve. They need to be able to make progress and by throwing more of your money out there you can rest assured, it will happen again.Prepared and paid for by Team and will continuously be dissed repeatedly by:
VOTE NO
Vow Opposing Taxes, Education Needs Overhaul
SIDENOTE: Just a thought, but wouldn't having this kind of meeting in a school building be some sort of conflict of interest or something?
It just seems peculiar that the school is not suppose to hand out flyers and such, but yet a group advocating for the school can hold meetings in a school building.Anyone know of the legalities on this?
Posted by busybee on Sep. 18 2007,12:16 am
I like your postcard better than theirs! I do give them credit for putting the effort forth to support the students in Albert Lea Public Schools. I highly doubt I'd be welcome to join their TEAM.
I'd certainly like to get an opposing "team" together with other parents/community members that are willing to push more than just passing yet another "conform to the norm" referendum.
Posted by bianca on Sep. 18 2007,6:40 am
QUOTE
I'd certainly like to get an opposing "team" together
.....and maybe we could hold the meetings in the courthouse to remind people that that is where they will be paying those taxes.
Posted by carnation on Sep. 18 2007,8:03 am
I am not entirely informed on this subject, but isn't the whole problem as simple as that we are not getting enough money from the State anymore. Do any of you have children still in school? Don't you want them to have the same opportunities that we had when we were in school? I agree that there should be some "fat" cut in the right places, but not the arts, not the athletics. All of those things, combined with academics are what make for a well rounded student; things that can teach them self discipline, self control, self confidence, achievement. Weren't any of you involved in those things as students? Personally with all of the problems my Grandchildren are facing today, I want them to have every possible chance they can in school.I am not a big fan of the all day K, but the expectations for those children are bigger than ever, so in order to meet those expectations, it probably takes all day.
Our teachers don't have an easy job.I would not like to be in a class room all day with 23-28 students with different abilities and different behavior. But that is a whole different topic.
I dont want my taxes to increase any more than anyone else, but I will vote yes for the children. I will just have to do without eating out once a month to pay for the increase. Many of you sit on here and complain about this town going no where. This town will go no where if we don't support our kids.
I am hoping that the percentages on here don't reflect the attitude of the general public.
Posted by TameThaTane on Sep. 18 2007,8:10 am
^No ones stopping you from skipping two meals a day and giving that money to your kids education. You can give till it hurts and then give some more. That's entirely your choice. But that's not really what you're talking about is it... You're talking about me giving my money aren't you? And using your silly story about skipping meals is designed to influence me to agree to do the same, right?
Please don't play your silly mind games with me grandma. If you truly believe giving more money to the district is a good thing, then get out your check book and start writing checks.
Posted by carnation on Sep. 18 2007,8:16 am
Oh, ya, now I remember why I never post my opinion! I forgot it is a waste of time. Never mind.......... 
Posted by TameThaTane on Sep. 18 2007,8:19 am
Everyone has to agree with your opinion or it's a waste of time? And then you take all your marbles and go home?Is anyone stopping you from giving all your money to the school district? if the referendum fails are you going to not give any money on your own?
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 18 2007,11:24 am
My guess is team can hold a meeting in a school as long as they let the no group. Try to schedule a meeting. It would be intersting to see if people would show up.
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 18 2007,11:25 am
My guess is team can hold a meeting in a school as long as they let the no group. Try to schedule a meeting. It would be intersting to see if people would show up.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 18 2007,11:27 am
QUOTE
Don't you want them to have the same opportunities that we had when we were in school?
I want them to have more. Academics especially.
QUOTE
I agree that there should be some "fat" cut in the right places, but not the arts, not the athletics.
Agree with the arts to a certain degree. Disagree with athletics.
QUOTE
All of those things, combined with academics are what make for a well rounded student; things that can teach them self discipline, self control, self confidence, achievement.
I can teach my own children that. Other people in their life can help them learn that. People in the community can help them learn that. Those skills have nothing to do with how much money we give a school district. Further, I certainly would never depend upon any school to teach my children something I can provide for them.
QUOTE
I dont want my taxes to increase any more than anyone else, but I will vote yes for the children.
What about those kids who don't enjoy school sports as much as other sports not related to the school? What about those kids who have no desire to learn how to play an instrument, enjoy singing, drama, drawing, pottery, etc...? When you vote yes for the children based upon sports and the arts, you are NEVER voting yes for ALL children, only the ones that fit the philosophy of what is a "well rounded student." IMHO, voting yes for a referendum should be based upon ACADEMIC achievement goals because that is the ONLY way we can support ALL the children.
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 18 2007,11:39 am
My guess is team can hold a meeting in a school as long as they let the no group. Try to schedule a meeting. It would be intersting to see if people would show up.
Posted by The Game on Sep. 18 2007,4:52 pm
My one and a half year old daughter received that post card. It was addressed to her. I gave it to her. She promptly walked over to the cat, and tried to feed it to him, tried to give it to the dog. No interest there, then she plopped down and started to eat it. Silly kid. Even if the referendum passes it would end by the time she goes to school.
Posted by medic on Sep. 18 2007,5:17 pm
Great post bustbee. Game my 3 year old got the same letter, I guess team does not care about my 8 yearl old in school right now?? They must have lost hope for the kis in school right now. Or maybe they'll just feed them the information to take home to us like last year. Can't teach school but they can teach our kids how to tell their parents to vote.. Odd I say!
Posted by busybee on Sep. 19 2007,6:40 am
QUOTE
My guess is team can hold a meeting in a school as long as they let the no group. Try to schedule a meeting. It would be intersting to see if people would show up.
I am afraid the "no" group would be made up of people who are simply just tired of increasing taxes. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I hear the most from people.
As for me, I'd vote no only because the district isn't offering to focus on improving academic achievement. That's what I would like to contribute to the students that attend District 241.
I would never deny that District 241 doesn't get enough government funding (like any other District). However, complaining about it and not offering any other option than ask for money to keep things the same, really gets my goat. The "same" isn't working and keeping it that way will not provide what the kids need to improve in academic achievement.
For how long now have we heard about the affects of classroom size in relationship to student academic growth and achievement? It's true, the more support in the classroom, the better the student outcome. That's exactly why elementary students gain the most academically. It's not so much that the numbers are 4-15 students less than upper grades, it's because there is more than one adult teaching tool in their classroom in core subjects. That's effective use of funds. That's the most effective learning environment to provide.
So, when the district says we need to vote yes for the referendum to keep the upper grade classrooms at around 25-35 students, and keep all the "opportunities" so they can become "well rounded students" I think they're wrong. I think that philosophy of education for the upper grades is doing more harm to our students than good. I'd much rather see cuts where they can be made, even in athletics, so we could put paraprofessionals in the classrooms at the high school in core academic classes, such as math, reading, english, science. That would benefit ALL students.
So, when I hear/read things like this....
QUOTE
Many of you sit on here and complain about this town going no where. This town will go no where if we don't support our kids.
I realize just how quickly most people believe voting yes for a referendum will automatically help our community and possibly foster its growth. It's not that simple. Every other district is doing the exact same thing, so it won't make District 241 any more attractive than it has been.
Posted by katlade on Sep. 19 2007,9:32 am
How does these schools in the small towns manage to educate the students/ They certainly must be struggling as well. And they don't have a brand new school to educate them in. Just goes to show that a new school building does not equal a good education. I think they better go over the budget again then again and make more cuts . That is what most working class families are doing these days. And if you happen to be one of the lucky ones that gets pay raises that are over the cost of living increases and does not have your health insurance premium cost increased 30%, well go right ahead and write out checks to the district to your hearts content. I will vote no and will continue to vote no and encourage my family and friends to vote no until people are not hurting financially they way they are now. And if you are not struggling ,well good for you, but maybe you should talk to others that are.It is tough out there and I really don't think that our childrens education is going to suffer. We have a pretty decent education system compared to the rest of the country and don't let anyone tell you different.
Posted by bianca on Sep. 19 2007,9:56 am
QUOTE
I am afraid the "no" group would be made up of people who are simply just tired of increasing taxes. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I hear the most from people.
It's about accountability to our kids, I think most of us DO want what's best. When students are in school they SHOULD be making progress in BIG areas like Math and Reading. Those are just the subjects they are getting tested on for these yearly reports. If the students aren't making progress they are just buying time until they graduate.Yes, it's partly about more increase in taxes for some but that is only because we are not getting what we are paying for and that goes back to our students.
Everyone moans about the tax increase, that just happens, people will always moan about increasing taxes. But from what I'm seeing on here, we DO want what's best for our kids.
*My son was a starting point guard for the ALHS basketball team and was great at it. He lived and breathed basketball, and still does. At the end of his junior year he started having a major anxiety disorder mixed with cutting himself to get rid of these feelings. After he got out of the hospital, I wanted him in a less stressful environment than mainstream, so he went into the "options" program at the highschool. The "options" staff is very carefree and these are the teachers who need medals of honor from the students they choose to teach. They teach students bunched together with any mental health disorder ADHD,Obsessive Defiant Disorder,Depression,Anxiety disorders and by the way some of them cuss I'm thinking there might be a dash of Tourettes in there also.
When you have a student in "options" you have IEP meetings which usually consist of the principal Al Root, Keith Erickson the head of special ed, the social worker (s), sometimes a vice principal, and the students teachers. When my son turned 18 they would tell him that he no longer needed to have his mother at the meetings if he didn't want, they would also try to "Persuade" him that maybe school wasn't the right thing for him as it "stressed him out" and maybe it would be "better for him" if he just dropped out and got his GED later.
Needless to say, he did want me there, he did want to graduate with his class and did, made the front page of the paper that year. But what he didn't need is paid educators with the philosophy that it would be easier for the school, than working with us on a plan, if they didn't have to deal with helping him get the credits he needed to graduate.
If a student is not meeting their expectations, or the staff is having to do the job they were hired to do and come up with solutions for success, they should just tell students that there is an easier way out?
Not in my book.This is why I choose to be an advocate, this isn't the only student that this has happened to, it happens all the time, taking the easy way out it is not acceptable. Until the school can come up with teachers that actually want to teach, and the progress is seen and not just talked about I will be voting NO.
I'm so tired of hearing about how overburdened these teachers are with more students. They CHOSE this occupation, nobody says it is going to be easy, but it was/is a choice that they made and if they don't love to teach and feel rewarded to see the success in their students that they were part of then those are the ones that should not be teaching our students. It shouldn't just be about the students report card it should also be about the teachers report card, if they can't teach or do the job up to state standards then move on.
Posted by carnation on Sep. 19 2007,10:10 am
Any of you actually go to the meeting the other night to voice your opinions publicly?
Posted by TameThaTane on Sep. 19 2007,10:18 am
How many checks have you written to the district on your own?People have lives to lead carnation. They can and will voice their opinion at the ballot box and you can put your money where your mouth is and get out your checkbook and start writing checks to the district instead of trying to get everyone else to do it.
Posted by bianca on Sep. 19 2007,10:20 am
QUOTE
but isn't the whole problem as simple as that we are not getting enough money from the State anymore.
That is what THEY would like you to believe but other cities have felt the crunch and had to make due.
QUOTE
Because of the switch to the seven-period day, an additional $35,000 needs to be added.
You do realize that this was changed to four periods to save money, right?
Posted by katlade on Sep. 19 2007,11:27 am
Totally agree with Bianca. Why don't the supporters of the increase take a field trip to some other school districts around the country and see how they make due and the kids have just as much success as our kids do.It is simple. If you can't afford the tax increase you are not going to vote for it. I can't afford it right now so I will vote no. End of story. The kids will be fine. As far as I am concerned not adversity builds character and kids do not need everything they want or ask for. Start developing problem solving skills so if any one of them chooses to be a superintendent of schools they can put those skills to use instead of asking someone to foot the bill over and over again.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 19 2007,12:15 pm
Awesome responses everyone! Bianca...
QUOTE
Yes, it's partly about more increase in taxes for some but that is only because we are not getting what we are paying for and that goes back to our students.
QUOTE
They teach students bunched together with any mental health disorder ADHD,Obsessive Defiant Disorder,Depression,Anxiety disorders and by the way some of them cuss I'm thinking there might be a dash of Tourettes in there also
There's more...Autism, sensory integration dysfunction, down syndrome, spina bifida, dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalcelia, speech, hearing & vision problems, etc...
Katlade...
QUOTE
kids do not need everything they want or ask for. Start developing problem solving skills so if any one of them chooses to be a superintendent of schools they can put those skills to use instead of asking someone to foot the bill over and over again.
Whoohooo!
TTT...
QUOTE
People have lives to lead carnation. They can and will voice their opinion at the ballot box and you can put your money where your mouth is and get out your checkbook and start writing checks to the district instead of trying to get everyone else to do it.
Couldn't agree more! I want to pay for academic education and improvement in that for ALL students, not fluff and stuff for things only certain groups of students are going to benefit from or enjoy. Makes no sense to me as a parent to have to help the district financially support athletic & extra cirricular programs that my own kids aren't interested in, along with students who aren't also. If others want to see certain kids have certain opportunites, go for it and pay the bill yourself. I have to pay for the non-school related sports/activities my kids participate in, I don't expect anyone else too.
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 19 2007,5:46 pm
So Bianca and Katlady. You would be in favor of getting by like Glenville does?
Posted by katlade on Sep. 19 2007,6:16 pm
(wildjim @ Sep. 19 2007,5:46 pm)
QUOTE
So Bianca and Katlady. You would be in favor of getting by like Glenville does?
Yeah, Duh. Isn't that what I said in my post. Are you sayting that he kids that graduate from Glenville, Alden-Conger etc. aren't as successful as Albert Lea graduates. When a family can't afford something they have to make cuts? Just the way it is folks. If you can't afford it you don't buy it. There is not way on earth that the kids going to Albert Lea schools are not getting a good education. They do not need all the bells and whistles. And if you have to downsize employees that is what will need to happen. How many people in Albert Lea have been laid off or terminated due to the same reasons. Do you have a pass just because you work for the school district? How much administrative work went into changing the 4 classes a day to 7 classes a day cost. Was it needed? Are you telling me that some my children got a better education depending on which class schedule the high school was using when they were students.
It is so simple. If those residents that fall in the District 241 area can't afford to have their property taxes go up once again they are going to vote no.
Posted by TameThaTane on Sep. 19 2007,6:19 pm
You all seem to be under the false assumption that increaed taxes somehow translate into better education.
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 19 2007,7:37 pm
(katlade @ Sep. 19 2007,6:16 pm)
QUOTE
(wildjim @ Sep. 19 2007,5:46 pm)
QUOTE
So Bianca and Katlady. You would be in favor of getting by like Glenville does?
Yeah, Duh. Isn't that what I said in my post. Are you sayting that he kids that graduate from Glenville, Alden-Conger etc. aren't as successful as Albert Lea graduates. When a family can't afford something they have to make cuts? Just the way it is folks. If you can't afford it you don't buy it. There is not way on earth that the kids going to Albert Lea schools are not getting a good education. They do not need all the bells and whistles. And if you have to downsize employees that is what will need to happen. How many people in Albert Lea have been laid off or terminated due to the same reasons. Do you have a pass just because you work for the school district? How much administrative work went into changing the 4 classes a day to 7 classes a day cost. Was it needed? Are you telling me that some my children got a better education depending on which class schedule the high school was using when they were students.
It is so simple. If those residents that fall in the District 241 area can't afford to have their property taxes go up once again they are going to vote no.
Well there you have it. Glenville has a larger levy already in place. I would hope most people would think we could at least keep pace with them.
Posted by Wareagle11B on Sep. 19 2007,11:22 pm
I will vote no and this isn't so much about my taxes going up, even tho I cannot afford that.Number 1 Question: How many Electives does the ALHS offer and how many are absolutely needed?
The last I heard we had a lot more electives than was necessary for a school of our size. Cut them back to a more manageable amount thereby cutting some of the cost of our school system.
Number 2: Why do we need MORE money when our school enrollment is declining as well as our overall population?
Seems to me that with declining enrollment we wouldn't need as much supporting staff as we currently have on the payroll.
Number 3: Last year when the referendum failed why didn't DIST. 241 come up with a more viable means of cutting back?
Dr. Prescott's plan after last years failure......."We'll just try again next year and put it on the ballot again." No workable alternative to the failure and once again the DIST. 241 spin machine is in high gear with the scare tactics and using the kids to get their spin out there. Cut costs by starting within the system and then come to us with a more manageable request for money. Perhaps then we would be more apt to vote yes.
Take a hint from Jim Hanson and use his methodology to work it out and THEN hit us with the amount you would like voted on. Until then my vote will remain NO.
Posted by TameThaTane on Sep. 19 2007,11:39 pm
People who want to give can. But to them this is about forcing YOU to pay.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 20 2007,1:24 am
QUOTE
Well there you have it. Glenville has a larger levy already in place. I would hope most people would think we could at least keep pace with them.
Not possible to keep pace with them, other than possibly at the elementary level. Albert Lea does not have the small town school environment for upper level grades like Glenville does.
Posted by katlade on Sep. 20 2007,4:44 pm
How many times has Glenville has passed a referendum and what were the effects to property taxes? What is it our schools are lacking that other schools have. And when the schools start sending 3rd graders home to tell their parents how to vote and if they don't vote yes the kids will suffer (which is bull) that is when I quit trusting the school district altogether. The parents have other things to consider when making a decision to vote yes or no and the schools better keep the kids out of it. Period. Totally not appropriate. In fact that kind of behaivor will probably convince more parents that have not decided to vote no. I'd like to know who came up with that brilliant idea.
Posted by medic on Sep. 20 2007,5:45 pm
I think it was TEAM!
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 20 2007,9:50 pm
The people in Glenvile tax themselves more to pay for their schools. You said we should look at other districts and do what they do. Plus they have lower special ed costs since they ship high need kids to schools like 241 which then takes money out of regular ed.
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 20 2007,10:02 pm
Busy bee and TTT. Maybe you are right. We should only pay for what we use. I am tired of paying for special ed and for programs for under privledged kids and would rather see more money in math and science. Maybe we could even have a real AP program. But with the current admin in 241 I won't hold my breath.
Posted by ICU812 on Sep. 20 2007,10:32 pm
Look up the yearly budget, divide it out by 365 (schools only open 250 and some days-but that daily number is really big)and after you see that number then decide yes or no.I will be voting YES. I have decided the best thing I can do is make my best effort to spend every dollar I make at the government store. I have only recently had this feeling but it is so fun to make a purchase at one or more of their fine outlet centers. Oct. 10 property taxes are due-take me a week to get the smile off my face spending that, I would much rather spend it on the government level(would really suck to buy a brand new Browning twice a year free and clear)...It really ruins my year when my taxes DONT increase at least 10-15%.
Next Friday I will get another paycheck-man the feeling of grabbing a couple Franklins and chucking them out the window on my drive home(in a car that I have to finance for 5 years so I can afford to do such a thing). Give and take-with a smile.
I am really really looking forward to giving more money to the government for some of that universal healthcare, on top of the private insurance I keep I can pay for some more-----yeee-haw------ one more deduction line for the old paycheck-bring it on.
Seriously though, I have to ask why is more money needed when half of every dollar on the state level goes towards edjumecation?
?
Posted by jimhanson on Sep. 21 2007,11:02 am
ICU812--that bit of sarcastic and sardonic humor was one of the funniest yet to-the-point posts I have ever seen on the Forum. In the words of libbies, I'm glad to see that you have "grown" from your signature line
QUOTE
“Maybe we should have a week for taxpayers who pay for everything,” Belshan said. “Why don't you line that up?”
into full-time Communism--where ALL money produced goes to the gummint.You have obviously either been reading the Comrade's Gazzette Star Tribune, or have recently returned from the Gulags -- (make that "re-education camps"). I'm glad you have seen the error of your bourgeois and selfish capitalist ways--hoarding some money for yourself instead of for the good of the State.
The revolution is complete!
Posted by bianca on Sep. 21 2007,12:03 pm
wildjim- I hope someday you are "blessed" with a special ed child or under priveledged grandchild of your own someday,because they don't deserve an education as much as any other student right?
QUOTE
Try to approach this using reason and logic and not some emotional rant that reflects poorly on the community.
People such as yourself with your stone-age thinking is what reflects poorly on this community and definitely one more reason I will continue to vote NO.
Why don't we just banish every child that doesn't live up to societies standards? You don't care about Math or Reading, so what's your agenda, sports or possibly a disgruntled teacher.
Did Prescott ever do an article in the paper justifying WHY we haven't passed the math proficiencies for the third year in a row and how the passed referendum will help that out in some way?
Posted by TameThaTane on Sep. 21 2007,3:38 pm
Parents should be able opt out of the public school system if they choose and therefore should be exempt from any school taxes levied against them. Then this money can be used for private schooling and home schooling. Also households without children should be exempt from any and all school taxes. Is it really fair for a household with no kids to pay the same as a household with four kids? You chose to have the kids, you should also pay for their edumacations. This is the only way the school district will shape up. Competition and choice always improves the bottom line and in this case the bottom line is your kids education. The district does not want you have that choice because they know many would choose against them.
Posted by scorenix on Sep. 21 2007,3:52 pm
(TameThaTane @ Sep. 21 2007,3:38 pm)
QUOTE
Parents should be able opt out of the public school system if they choose and therefore should be exempt from any school taxes levied against them. Then this money can be used for private schooling and home schooling.
But what about the special education? That is the problem with the school voucher program. The private schools do not take the special needs kids. Should they be forced to do so in return for the voucher program?
Posted by jimhanson on Sep. 21 2007,5:19 pm
QUOTE
But what about the special education? That is the problem with the school voucher program. The private schools do not take the special needs kids. Should they be forced to do so in return for the voucher program?
That's so wrong on so many issues.Are you saying it's OK to average DOWN? To penalize kids because someone ELSE can't learn at their same rate? That IS what's happening--and making schools another example of government social engineering is leading (predictably) to failure.
Ask yourself the flip side of the equation--why do private schools excel? Because they can teach faster, better, and in more depth. They don't have the disruption of kids that don't want to learn. Why do the majority of Congresscritters and government bureaucrats send their kids (including Chelsea Clinton and Al Gore) to private schools. Why do politician's kids go to private schools, while the rest of Washington is condemned to mediocrity?
Next issue--is "mainstreaming" good for schools? As much as we would like to think that we are "helping" disabled students by putting them in regular classroom, it often has the predictable unintended consequence of hurting the very people government is trying to help. Instead of working at peer level, students are forced to try to keep up with the rest of the class. Even with special help (and special ed IS costly), some kids can't keep up. Do you suppose it makes them "feel better" because they are in a "mainstream" class? No--they feel like the dumbest kids in the class--and THAT is hardly good for "self-esteem." The answer? Put kids in appropriate grade-level learning--Jethro might be 12, but if he reads like an 8 year old, treat him like an 8 year old. Advocates of "automatic promotion" in grade, rather than accomplishment have confused chronological age as his peers rather than academic accomplishment.
Third--
QUOTE
But what about the special education? That is the problem with the school voucher program.
we seem to have lost sight of the fact that our primary mission is to EDUCATE THE KIDS--not to be a social engineering exercise. If a program is hurting our kids, why do we still have it? It hurts because it drags down the academic accomplishments of ALL kids, and it hurts because we are trying to insert kids (and the attendant specialists) into a program that is not designed to accomodate them. Why NOT vouchers? Why condemn kids to mediocre schools? Why not free them to attend the best school they can afford--and if parents want to sacrifice and spend MORE money than average, let them.
Finally, why NOT let government be the school of last resort--special ed, juvenile criminals, indifferent learners? Government is the last resort for a number of programs--lending, small business, health care, disaster relief, flood insurance, ag payments. Let local schools set their own priorities according to their own needs. Let schools teach kids at appropriate levels. SIDE NOTE: Liberals seem to think that only GOVERNMENT can teach these kids with "special needs"--nothing is further from the truth. There is an entire industry comprised of companies (like Sylvan Learning Centers) that succeed where government schools have failed.
One more item--look at the list in the paragraph above, where government is the "last resort". In addition to the failure of government schools, how many of the items listed there
QUOTE
lending, small business, health care, disaster relief, flood insurance, ag payments
are government successes?
Posted by jimhanson on Sep. 21 2007,5:31 pm
TTT QUOTE
Parents should be able opt out of the public school system if they choose and therefore should be exempt from any school taxes levied against them. Then this money can be used for private schooling and home schooling. Also households without children should be exempt from any and all school taxes. Is it really fair for a household with no kids to pay the same as a household with four kids?
I agree with TTT--to a point. Every household should NOT pay the same, regardless of the number of kids they are putting through the school. There IS a component of civic responsibility to educate our young--and I don't mind paying for that portion. You can argue that that figure might be 20%--or something higher--but it shouldn't be the same as everybody paying the same.TTT
QUOTE
The district does not want you have that choice because they know many would choose against them.
This is also true. Advocates for more spending say that by spending more, more people will come to the area. This has not proven true. Under open enrollment, more parents HAVE CHOSEN to send their kids to other districts than have chosen to transfer in. That has to hurt--and I don't mean financially. Despite the hardships of educating kids elsewhere (transportation, car pooling, longer drives) people have been saying "No sale."TTT is also right about the "investment" we are asked to make--it is not about paying YOUR money--it's about spending someone ELSES money.
We've heard a lot of simplistic platitudes about "investing" (spending) more money on education to improve the quality of the product--but the school district hasn't shown that spending more money improves the "product"--kids education.
Posted by The Game on Sep. 21 2007,5:56 pm
I'll pay the tuition and send my daughter to St. Teds. At least til she's is ready for H.S.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 23 2007,12:32 am
QUOTE
Are you saying it's OK to average DOWN? To penalize kids because someone ELSE can't learn at their same rate? That IS what's happening--and making schools another example of government social engineering is leading (predictably) to failure.
The "average down" happens mostly after elementary school. Once again, it's fairly evident how much better the public elementary system is than the middle/high school system. It's in the elementary grades where gaps in achievement levels are noticably at greater distances between top & bottom, yet the learning growth is statistically greater among most all students during those elementary years. Beyond elementary the achievement levels decline considerably, as does student learning growth. That is where the "government social engineering" is happening. This is the point when a student is supposed to make the transformation from being an academic learner to a well rounded student.
QUOTE
Next issue--is "mainstreaming" good for schools? As much as we would like to think that we are "helping" disabled students by putting them in regular classroom, it often has the predictable unintended consequence of hurting the very people government is trying to help. Instead of working at peer level, students are forced to try to keep up with the rest of the class. Even with special help (and special ed IS costly), some kids can't keep up.
Elementary schools do better at mainstreaming too. Students that are in special ed, do NOT spend all their time in the regular education classroom. They go to the special ed teacher who works with them on developing the skills they need to grow academically. Further, when those students are mainstreamed, there is usually a para in the classroom. That para doesn't just help one student, usually they help all students. There's title I also for those students who are slightly below grade level, but do not qualify for special ed, which means more support in the regular ed classroom. Still yet, elementary teacher's attempt to utilize every student in their classrooms to create a learning environment affective to all levels of learning. Even the brightest student can learn more if they are put in a position of helping a student who is struggling, rather than doing everything alone. And, even a struggling student can learn more if it's explained by a peer, rather than the teacher only.
This is not something we see in grades beyond elementary. For example, the student who begins Kindergarten behind in reading development most likely will start out with title one services. If significant improvement is not made over the course of the year, testing will be done to see if the student has a learning difference. If a reading disability (normal IQ, but not matching performance) is detected, the child will qualify for special ed. By the end of 2nd grade this student is performing at a .7 reading level, which is about the level of a kindergartner 3/4's the way through the school year. By the end of 4th grade this same student is at a 2.9 (2nd grade 9th month) and by the end of 6th the student is at a 6.0 which is where a 6th grader should be on the first day of school. So, this student is behind one full reading level going into 7th grade. Guess what happens? The student doesn't qualify for any help because the gap is not significant enough now. In elementary, 1 full grade level is SIGNIFICANT, past elementary it is not. All that is offered past elementary is special ed. No title one = no extra support people in the classrooms. No more effective teaching techniques to utilize support for all levels of learning. So, is it these kids who "dumb down" the system or is it the philosophy differences between educating elementary students and middle school/high school students?
QUOTE
we seem to have lost sight of the fact that our primary mission is to EDUCATE THE KIDS--not to be a social engineering exercise. If a program is hurting our kids, why do we still have it? It hurts because it drags down the academic accomplishments of ALL kids, and it hurts because we are trying to insert kids (and the attendant specialists) into a program that is not designed to accomodate them.
Like you said, special ed is costly, as is title I. However, no one really knows if the same support was offered in EDUCATING students beyond elementary and up to graduation if academic growth and proficiency rates would have a different outcome because we've never tried it. Maybe the student who is 1 reading level behind in 7th grade would attain a 9.0 level by 9th grade if he/she didn't wasn't forced to suddenly blend into the woodwork and just get by until graduation. Public schools can do better and some HAVE without blaming their special ed or slightly behind students for dragging their school down. Instead, they focus on creating support in and out of the classrooms, expect their teachers, staff and students to participate in developing a high academic standard for their school, and are willing to spend the money for it, even if sacrifices have to made in sports, extra cirricular activites and electives.
Posted by bianca on Sep. 23 2007,8:45 am
QUOTE
Next issue--is "mainstreaming" good for schools?
I don't think a lot of people understand this "mainstream" concept. Once the kids get to junior high, the "special needs" students go into "special classes" and then it is THEIR choice whether they would want to try a mainstream class. If they feel like "the dumbest kid in class" or they feel like they can't keep up they are able to go back into their "special" classes.
QUOTE
Further, when those students are mainstreamed, there is usually a para in the classroom. That para doesn't just help one student, usually they help all students.
Exactly right, and people don't seem to get this part.
In Nevada if schools don't measure up in the AYP reports they have to show a plan to improve the situation and have different templates of plans.
School improvement plans for all schools must adhere to the following components:
1. Include a review of the school’s accountability report and other data;
2. Include an identification of problems and/or factors causing the school to be in
improvement;
3. Use scientifically-based research strategies to strengthen the core academics;
4. Adopt policies and practices concerning the school’s core academic subjects that have the
greatest likelihood of ensuring that all groups of students will meet State standards;
5. Establish specific annual, measurable objectives for continuous and substantial progress
by each group of students to make adequate yearly progress to meet the State standards;
6. Include strategies to promote effective parental involvement in the school;
7. Incorporate, as appropriate, activities of remedial instruction or tutoring before school,
after school, during the summer, and during any extension of the school year;
8. Determine strategies to improve achievement;
9. Specify the responsibilities of the school, the local educational agency, and the State
educational agency serving the school under the plan, including the technical assistance
to be provided by the local educational agency and the local educational agency’s
responsibilities;
10. Establish a timeline;
11. Develop measurable criteria for evaluating effectiveness of each provision in the plan
(including increasing achievement, attendance or decreasing dropouts);
12. Describe resources available to the school for carrying out the plan;
13. Provide a summary of effectiveness of Legislative appropriations to improve
achievement and of programs approved by the Legislature.
14. A budget of the overall cost for carrying out the plan.
According to NRS 385, Non-Title I schools that fail AYP for two consecutive years must alsoAccording to NRS 385, Non-Title I schools that fail AYP for two consecutive years must also
comply with NCLB 6316(b)(3). Therefore, Non-Title I schools that are designated in
improvement must complete two additional requirements, numbers 15 and 17 listed below, and
include them in their school improvement plan.
For Title I schools in improvement, plans must cover a two-year period and the four additional
components below must be addressed:
15. Assure the school will spend at least 10 percent of the school improvement funds to
provide high-quality professional development to the school’s teachers and principal that
• Directly addresses the academic achievement problem that caused the school to
be identified for school improvement,
• Meets the requirements for professional development activities, and
• Is provided in a manner that helps teachers participate in the professional
development;
16. Describe how the school will provide written notice about the identification to parents in
a format and, to the extent practicable, in a language that the parents can understand;
17. Specify how the Title I funds will be used to remove the school from school
improvement; and
18. Incorporate a teacher-mentoring program.
19. Describe the school’s strategies to attract high-quality highly qualified teachers to your
school.
SAGE School Improvement Guidebook
Appendix A: Legal References 2007
A3
20. Describe the school’s strategies to increase parent involvement in accordance with
Section 1118 of NCLB, such as family literacy services.
21. Describe the school’s plans for assisting preschool children in the transition from early childhood programs, such as Head Start, Even Start, Early Reading First, or a state-run
preschool program, to local elementary school programs.
**IMO, I think the school should have to publish in the paper what their plan of action for getting the AYP up to par BEFORE we vote on a referendum without a plan, to yield success from ALL students. Otherwise as ICU812 so eloquently stated we might as well be
QUOTE
grabbing a couple Franklins and chucking them out the window on my drive home(in a car that I have to finance for 5 years so I can afford to do such a thing).
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 23 2007,1:22 pm
BiancaIf I am blessed with a specaial needs child, I will fight for them. But I won't want to take away the opportunities for other kids. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for the mandated programs? The feds pay less than half the costs so local districts have to pull dollars from general ed. If being concerened about those impacts mean my thoughts are in the stone age I am guilty. I wish you were as willing to pay for my children as I am yours
Posted by jimhanson on Sep. 23 2007,2:08 pm
Busybee--I'm trying to find your position in your post. I don't know if you are advocating for or against private schools. My response was directed at Scorenix' postQUOTE
But what about the special education? That is the problem with the school voucher program. The private schools do not take the special needs kids. Should they be forced to do so in return for the voucher program?
My position was that he seems to be advocating that schools be required to take all students, in return for school vouchers. That is PERPETUATING the same problem that he acknowledges--why would we saddle schools with that problem again?You seem to acknowledge that there IS a deleterious effect to having "special ed" in the classroom
QUOTE
The "average down" happens mostly after elementary school.
QUOTE
Even the brightest student can learn more if they are put in a position of helping a student who is struggling, rather than doing everything alone. And, even a struggling student can learn more if it's explained by a peer, rather than the teacher only.
Agreed--one of the reasons "one room schoolhouses" did well.You make great points about getting learning help early--and I'm not against getting help. As posted in my last post, I AM against automatic promotion in grade level, with an expectation that the teacher next year (or the para-professionals) will make it up with remedial training.
Private schools EXPECT kids to keep up--they challenge kids to do so. If that means remedial summer school or after school work, so be it. As the old saying goes--"The herd only goes as fast as the slowest buffalo"--keep the class moving quickly.
I also mentioned the excellent work that places like Sylvan do--putting the lie to the fact that only government schools can handle special ed.
What must be acknowledged is that the changes of the last 40 years have not all been for the better--that students in other countries--unshackled by "Politically Correct social engineering" have caught and surpassed our own students. Maintaining the current system is not practical. We know that the present system does NOT work, we know what USED to work, and we know what works in OTHER COUNTRIES.
Since we are on the subject of kids, the old kids fable of "The Emperor's New Clothes" comes immediately to mind. PRETENDING that the current system is working no longer works--the Emperor is exposed as naked.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 23 2007,4:48 pm
QUOTE
I don't think a lot of people understand this "mainstream" concept. Once the kids get to junior high, the "special needs" students go into "special classes" and then it is THEIR choice whether they would want to try a mainstream class. If they feel like "the dumbest kid in class" or they feel like they can't keep up they are able to go back into their "special" classes.
You are right, but I don't think it's the best system to keep students progressing like they were in elementary. For example, at SW, a student with an IEP may never see a special ed teacher until "testing" assessments need to be re-done for qualification. SW offers "learner support" to all SW students. (a new word for study hall maybe?) However, a special ed student can have up to 4 learner support classes a day, a regular ed student will not. Therefore, the student that comes into 7th grade with an IEP because of a 5th grade 6th month reading level, actually is not being served with special ed classes, just the opportunity of support from a regular ed teacher with assignment completion or if there's no assignments, time spent reading independently.
The other option they offer is what you described above. I am under the impression that all students can utilize this if they are really struggling. The difference between the two options is I believe there is a special ed teacher available in these "special classes" for the "special needs" students.
Posted by bianca on Sep. 23 2007,5:33 pm
Special Ed after elementary school is based on diagnoses and how much help from the school a parent is willing to fight for. The "options" program has at least one if not two or three special ed teachers and at least 2 or 3 paras so if a student is on an IEP and is getting "support" for 4 classes, something is not right there, unless of course the student is the one who wants to be in mainstream. These students/families have a choice. They don't HAVE to be in mainstream or ridiculed or thought of as "dumb" there are always "options" for them.
Posted by bianca on Sep. 23 2007,5:59 pm
QUOTE
I wish you were as willing to pay for my children as I am yours
What would you like me to pay for your child? Music? Athletics? Foreign Languages? 7 periods rather than 4? A system that continually shows no improvement in AYP reports for something so minute as Math and Reading?And what exactly do you think you are willing to pay for for my child/children?
What a crock! That's the TEAM spirit
I was looking for but wasn't quite sure when it would show. Guilt doesn't work, it was proven last year. You need a new strategy and while you are at it, how about some real solutions for some real problems?This referendum like the last is akin to a person who will not give up an old beaten down car. They just keep pumping money into it thinking that miraculously the problems will be solved by pumping more money into it each time it "breaks down".
It might cost more money but it takes less effort than to look for a NEW more efficient/ dependable/up-graded model that could potentially save thousands in the long run.What about that article from Prescott, that peter said was coming, did it ever get printed? Has he offered any solutions to the AYP reports that didn't include excuses for poor performance for the past three years?!
Posted by jimhanson on Sep. 24 2007,9:38 am
Bianca--you sound like you are turning conservative! FIXING problems rather than just continuing to throw money at them.
You are restoring my faith in Liberals--they may be "born that way", but eventually, they grow out of it!
(Just a "tweak"--you know I like you!)
Posted by busybee on Sep. 24 2007,10:32 am
QUOTE
Special Ed after elementary school is based on diagnoses and how much help from the school a parent is willing to fight for.
That's what I think is wrong with the public school system after elementary school. The diagnosis to qualify for special ed is more difficult after elementary. This is the "averages down" that Jim was talking about. These are the kids who aren't up to grade level in a particular core subject, but can get by. Since when is below grade level acceptable?
QUOTE
The "options" program has at least one if not two or three special ed teachers and at least 2 or 3 paras so if a student is on an IEP and is getting "support" for 4 classes, something is not right there, unless of course the student is the one who wants to be in mainstream. These students/families have a choice. They don't HAVE to be in mainstream or ridiculed or thought of as "dumb" there are always "options" for them.
I think we might be talking about two different things here. I'm talking about the special ed services that continue to support a student in developing their skills needed toward getting up to grade level in a core subject. It's more individualized at the elementary level. In elementary grades, special ed services focus on that, not just support for mainstreamed classroom assignment completion. There's a huge difference.
It's the public school system that averages down our kids, not the kids that dumb down the public schools. We spend the most money on elementary students in special ed and educational support for ALL students than in any other part of the public education system. And it helps. More students are at grade level or higher in elementary than they are after in core subjects.
Our society plays a part in the averaging down of students in the publc schools system also. We want little Jonny and little Betty to learn all they can in elementary school, but after that we want them to have opportunities not even relevant to core academics.
Is it any wonder the public school system can't get students performance up to standards by graduation? That's why Jim is accurate in his assessment on private schools. Averaging down students is not part of the system. In reality, the public elementary schools is the closest thing to private schooling the majority of American students will experience. That's a sad fact.
Posted by bianca on Sep. 24 2007,1:29 pm
QUOTE
Bianca--you sound like you are turning conservative!
It's just my other personality which is based on common sense
Posted by jimhanson on Sep. 24 2007,3:21 pm
QUOTE
It's just my other personality which is based on common sense
From this, are we to infer that Liberals (your OTHER personality) do NOT base their decisions on common sense?
Posted by january on Sep. 24 2007,6:07 pm
Busybee:Do you know what sanctions, if any, ALHS faces due to the fact that they have failed NCLB for 3 straight years? As I understand it and please correct me if I am wrong, only Tiltle I schools can be federally sanctioned?
Secondly, does District 241 have to provide tutors for math and reading now with 10% of federal monies allocated to this due to the fact of our failure? Or not?
Does District 241 have to provide busing (free of charge) for any student wanting to attend another school in relation to those schools that failed? Or not?
And lastly, would passing the current proposed referendum with increased funding go toward paying for the tutors and free bus rides?
I would like to be clear on these issues. I believe every single voter in District 241 needs the facts.
I am asking you because you are educated in these areas and if I ask a TEAM member, as I have in the past, their form of educating me is simply to reply in robot-ease "We need you to vote yes so that we can keep the current quality of education that we now have"
I firmly believe that if we contemplate without response to the marketing of the referendum by TEAM and the Administration/School Board and further without thoughtful knowledgable discussion we will not fully understand what we are voting on.
If we do not investigate, research or ask questions we all will continue to perpetuate the myth that ALHS does indeed have the quality of education that we want to give to our children.
And it anyone read the AL Tribune article by Micheal Reagan today concerning Hillary and her health care proposals, his discription of the "dumbed down public" that is so easily condescended to mirrors the sentiments of those that so readily want to pass this referendum.
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 24 2007,10:14 pm
Ap math and science would be nice. I wonder if these were mandated and special ed was not how you would feel. Where do you think they get the money to run special ed when the feds pay for less than half the cost?
Posted by busybee on Sep. 25 2007,1:28 am
January....All schools are expected to make Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP), but only Title I schools, schools that serve a high percentage of poor or minority students, face sanctions if they do not.
If a Title I school fails to make adequate yearly progress for two consecutive years, it will receive technical assistance from the school district and/or the Minnesota Department of Education. It must offer students the choice to attend another public school. It must provide transportation to students who choose other schools in the district – and it must use up to 5 percent of its Title I funds to do so.
If a Title I school fails to make adequate progress for three consecutive years, the school will also be required to offer “supplemental education services” chosen by parents, including private tutoring. These schools and districts must reserve up to 20 percent of Title I funds to cover the cost of tutoring, transportation and other supplemental services.
If a Title I school fails to make adequate progress for four consecutive years, the district must implement “corrective actions,” such as replacing staff or adopting new curriculum.
If a Title I school does not make adequate progress for five consecutive years, it would be identified for reconstitution. It would be required to set up an alternative governance structure, such as reopening as a charter school or turning operation of the school over to the state.
Halverson is the A.L. school with a warning. They fit the description of a title I school that serves a high percentage of poor students etc... If they don't make AYP next year they will fall under the two consecutive year sanctions.
A.L. High School & Lakeview failed but are not subject to sanctions.
Interesting to note: A.L. District students are 52% proficient in math. 61% is the state average. A.L. District students are 66% proficient in reading. 69% is the state average.
QUOTE
If we do not investigate, research or ask questions we all will continue to perpetuate the myth that ALHS does indeed have the quality of education that we want to give to our children.
As with anything, it's really all in what each person prioritizes as "quality."
Posted by busybee on Sep. 25 2007,2:06 am
QUOTE
Ap math and science would be nice. I wonder if these were mandated and special ed was not how you would feel. Where do you think they get the money to run special ed when the feds pay for less than half the cost?
Where do you think the money comes from for sports & extra cirricular activities? Where do you think the money comes from for classes such as ceramics & home interior design? People don't know the percentage of money spent on programs/classes for things like that because it is figured into the general ed budget. I would bet the amount of money spent on special ed and the "extras" are pretty close to the same.
I'm all for AP courses and mandating them. Heck, I'd love to see more focus on the gifted and talented students and programs for them. I'd also be for some foreign language instruction at the elementary level.
Posted by Eddie Cochran's Ghost on Sep. 25 2007,8:35 am
(busybee @ Sep. 25 2007,2:06 am)
QUOTE
I'd also be for some foreign language instruction at the elementary level.
Isn't that ESL is for?
Other than Spanish, I seriously fail to see the useful practicality of offering any other foreign language instruction at any level other than college.
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 25 2007,11:30 am
Fine make sports and extra cirriculars funed by those who use it. It is getting close to that anyway. You will see some below average students drop out but if they are only there to play ball they should not be there. Right?. Not sure getting rid of the music programs will save you money since I think the class sizes are larger than say a math class but whatever.How often do they run home design? I find it hard to believe they have enough interest to make that work. If you have 25 kids fine but if they are running it with 8 or 10 using the excuse that we need to offer it to keep these 8 or 10 kids in school end it
Posted by ICU812 on Sep. 25 2007,11:54 am
Money saver. And I have mentioned it before at city level-just ignored.Contract out: Lawn care & landscaping maintanence, janitorial services, snow removal, Hammer Field care.
Gains to school budget: removing employees from payroll(no ss, fed tax, state tax, medicare, 401K or HEALTH INS to pay for each employee), no equipment to purchase and maintain.
Take bids for lowest bidder to do all....Diamond Jo does it, ALMC does it. Why not on a government level??
Posted by jimhanson on Sep. 25 2007,1:17 pm
QUOTE
Take bids for lowest bidder to do all....Diamond Jo does it, ALMC does it. Why not on a government level??
Here's what the District had to say about janitorial service in their list of cost savings.Go here to see a list of all of the possible cuts considered. There are $5 million listed--we need to cut $2 million. null< My Webpage >
QUOTE
Contract Out Custodial Services ($150 K)
• Savings due to lower labor costs
• Little to no impact on student achievement
• Negative employee/community impact
• Pride in having clean schools and learning environment would likely
diminish
• Increase in student vandalism
• Increase in safety issues within building
• Buildings not maintained at our current levels
• Less permanent custodial staff could reduce positive relationships
with students and staff
• Buildings/classrooms may not be cleaned as well
• Staff/students/community may not get the immediate service they
are used to receiving
• Savings due to lower labor costs
• Little to no impact on student achievement
• Negative employee/community impact
• Pride in having clean schools and learning environment would likely
diminish
• Increase in student vandalism
• Increase in safety issues within building
• Buildings not maintained at our current levels
• Less permanent custodial staff could reduce positive relationships
with students and staff
• Buildings/classrooms may not be cleaned as well
• Staff/students/community may not get the immediate service they
are used to receiving
I'd say that for $150,000 in janitorial fees alone, that would be a fair trade.
Any of these cost savings should be measured against the others--for example--would I rather have public school (as opposed to contract) janitors, or make kids walk to school?
The only reason I can think of for the District to have chosen to keep their janitors, and cut bussing instead--would be to inflict maximum pain on parents so they would vote for the referendum.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 25 2007,4:38 pm
QUOTE
You will see some below average students drop out but if they are only there to play ball they should not be there. Right?.
Maybe that's why you think some students are in school, but I'm certainly not going to make that type of judgement against students.
What benefit is it to think some students are unteachable, therefore the best option is to continue offering them sports so at least they'll stay in school and get their diploma? How many of the "below average" students get to play sports?
QUOTE
Not sure getting rid of the music programs will save you money since I think the class sizes are larger than say a math class but whatever.
I never said anything about the music program. I don't consider music as an extra-cirricular activity since for the most part, students get to utilize it during their school day.
QUOTE
How often do they run home design? I find it hard to believe they have enough interest to make that work. If you have 25 kids fine but if they are running it with 8 or 10 using the excuse that we need to offer it to keep these 8 or 10 kids in school end it
There are only so many elective credits available. Listen to high school students sometimes...they'll pick what they hear from other students are the "easy" elective credits over difficult ones. Of course there's going to be enough students.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 25 2007,4:54 pm
QUOTE
Other than Spanish, I seriously fail to see the useful practicality of offering any other foreign language instruction at any level other than college.
That's what's getting us into trouble. Other countries teach English to their students at an early age because that's when it's the easiest for them to begin learning it.
Yes, knowing Spanish is very important in our country. More people get jobs now a days based upon being proficient in both English & Spanish.
Posted by jimhanson on Sep. 25 2007,7:29 pm
Busybee--good point about early language development. The only thing I would add--Botto's very valid point about "Perhaps we had better be teaching Chinese!"
Posted by Eddie Cochran's Ghost on Sep. 25 2007,8:49 pm
(busybee @ Sep. 25 2007,4:54 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Other than Spanish, I seriously fail to see the useful practicality of offering any other foreign language instruction at any level other than college.
That's what's getting us into trouble. Other countries teach English to their students at an early age because that's when it's the easiest for them to begin learning it.
Yes, knowing Spanish is very important in our country. More people get jobs now a days based upon being proficient in both English & Spanish.
I know that it's easiest to learn a langauge as a youth but that still doesn't answer the question about the relevance of German or French.
There's a legitimate and practical reason why English is taught in a number of places around the world. English is THE language of air travel and transportation and the dominant langauge of choice in business, media, etc.
Posted by scorenix on Sep. 25 2007,9:46 pm
And now the University of Minnesota is telling incoming freshmen business majors that they better bring their passport, because they will be required to travel outside the United States as part of their schooling. French and German still have their relevance. I spent two weeks in France five months ago. Language was not too much of a barrier, but it was French, not Spanish, and Europe is getting powerful in international trade, just as is China.I remember when we used to joke we needed to learn Japanese.
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 26 2007,8:54 am
Fine make sports and extra cirriculars funed by those who use it. It is getting close to that anyway. You will see some below average students drop out but if they are only there to play ball they should not be there. Right?. Not sure getting rid of the music programs will save you money since I think the class sizes are larger than say a math class but whatever.How often do they run home design? I find it hard to believe they have enough interest to make that work. If you have 25 kids fine but if they are running it with 8 or 10 using the excuse that we need to offer it to keep these 8 or 10 kids in school end it
Posted by jimhanson on Sep. 26 2007,9:29 am
QUOTE
I know that it's easiest to learn a langauge as a youth but that still doesn't answer the question about the relevance of German or French.
Learning German and French in today's world might be likened to people learning Latin the early 1900s. The languages have ceased to be relevant, except to specialists. Though it is a "dead" language, Doctors, linguists, and Lawyers learned latin because it is the basis for their work. There is little reason to learn German or French unless visiting the home country or former colony.
German used to be popular, especially in Minnesota, because contrary to popular opinion, there are more people of German descent in Minnesota than Scandinavians.
French was the language of the "upper class"--it purported to show a level of sophistication. Other than former French colonies, it has little use except perhaps for diplomatic uses--it might be useful to know how to say "WE SURRENDER".
Other than visiting the few former colonies (where they mostly now speak their own language) or the home country itself, they have ceased to be important languages on the international stage. You might just as well learn Tagalog--useless, unless visiting the Phillipines.
Learn Chinese--the most commonly spoken language in the world. Learn Spanish--the language of much of the Western Hemisphere, and as a Romance language, gives an insight into any of the other Romance languages (Portuguese, Italian, French). Most of all, teach our kids English--many cannot read, write, or speak what is supposed to be their "native" tongue.
Posted by Botto 82 on Sep. 26 2007,9:31 am
(jimhanson @ Sep. 26 2007,9:29 am)
QUOTE
Most of all, teach our kids English--many cannot read, write, or speak what is supposed to be their "native" tongue.
Isn't that the truth? My Lord, and some of them work in journalism.
Posted by katlade on Sep. 26 2007,10:08 am
I am wondering in anyone watched the KAAL morning news on Tuesday 9/25. Prescott was on explaining why the District needs more money. I understand that if a big company is looking at our community to expand thier business in our community or a new company would like to build in Albert Lea they would want to know about our schools. I still think the schools can be impressive without the extra money. But don't these business also need to know that there are plenty of workers available in the community. I personally think Prescott has it backwards. We need good paying jobs with benefits that will attract families to move to Albert Lea and these students will enroll more students in the schools which will increase the funding that we get from the state. We have a brand new high school and our grade/middle schools are in good shape. I think if someone were to shadow students at any of these schools they would find the education to be standard if not above. How many parents of prospective students are really going to ask about statistics etc., espcially if they are looking for employment to just provide for their families? NNow if more students are enrolled is the District going to want more money because they have more students? Because that is one of the reasons that is given for the decrease in state funding - less students, less student funding.I guess what it comes down to is that maybe Dr. Prescott is not coming across as credible or trustworthy especially since some of the decisions about where to cut costs seem to come across as blackmail. I personally consider his tactics to be arrogant and I am not so sure that the district has tried thier hardest to cut corners.
If anyone has been involved in setting up budgets from year to year, you probably know that if you do not spend what you have forecast you don't get to budget the same for the next period so you will find that department managers will make sure they spend what the budget is right at the end of the period to make sure they get the same next period. Whether they need it or not, they will spend it. Certain costs are hidden under generic categories and are not clearly stated on financial statements. Who is in charge of going over this budget with a finetooth comb?
I am thinking that I am not the only one questioning Dr. Prescotts claims about the budget. That might be part of the district's problem on this issue.
Posted by hot84svo on Sep. 26 2007,10:14 am
The school has sent home a fact sheet on the referendum with students. Does anyone have the exact wording of the ballot?
IT looks like, issue 1 - vote yes for $xx.xx increase, issue 2 vote yes again for an increase of $xx.xx only if issue 1 passes
There is not a renewal of the current funding level on the ballot only increases.
Posted by busybee on Sep. 26 2007,11:51 am
QUOTE
Learn Chinese--the most commonly spoken language in the world. Learn Spanish--the language of much of the Western Hemisphere, and as a Romance language, gives an insight into any of the other Romance languages (Portuguese, Italian, French). Most of all, teach our kids English--many cannot read, write, or speak what is supposed to be their "native" tongue.
Posted by TameThaTane on Sep. 26 2007,2:26 pm
The time to learn languages are when you're a young child..the way the brain works...The languages to learn would be Spanish today....Chinese in about 25 years.
About Prescott--->He's just trying to be a salesman and he's a bad one at that. Companies look at what location can serve their business interests. Schools would be WAY down the list and the difference between the way they are now and the way they'd be with another referendum would be so small as to be irrelevant. Same old song and dance, like with the court house. If we only give more tax money we'll get more industry. Total and complete BS. Was then and is now.
Posted by bianca on Sep. 26 2007,6:12 pm
QUOTE
The school has sent home a fact sheet on the referendum with students.
Does anyone have the exact wording of the ballot?
IT looks like, issue 1 - vote yes for $xx.xx increase, issue 2 vote yes again for an increase of $xx.xx only if issue 1 passes
There is not a renewal of the current funding level on the ballot only increases.
Does anyone have the exact wording of the ballot?
IT looks like, issue 1 - vote yes for $xx.xx increase, issue 2 vote yes again for an increase of $xx.xx only if issue 1 passes
There is not a renewal of the current funding level on the ballot only increases.
CORRECTOMUNDO
Explanation of Ballot Questions
Question #1 To increase the school district’s general education revenue by replacing the current operating levy, that will end in June 2008, with a $869 per pupil levy for the next seven years. The average valued home ($100,000) would have a $96 per year increase if question #1 is approved
Ballot Question #2 Increase the per pupil amount in Question 1 by $89, for a total of $958 per pupil unit . The average valued home ($100,000) would have a $125 per year increase if question 2 is approved.
***Ballot question #2 will pass ONLY if ballot question #1 passes with a majority of YES votes, AND ballot question #2 passes with a majority of YES votes.
You must vote on question one before you can vote on question two.
JUST SAY NO TO QUESTION ONE AND TWO TO MAKE THE DISTRICT ACCOUNTABLE FOR OVERSPENDING.
**It cost the district an additional $35,000.00 that they DIDN'T HAVE in order to go back to 7 periods this year. $35,000.00! I know I didn't get a choice in that matter, they just went ahead and spent it and then they ask, only after the fact, for more money from us.
I would've said DON'T SPEND WHAT YOU DON'T HAVE!!!!! Simple Math people.
Oh, that's right we're not "proficient in Math"
Posted by january on Sep. 27 2007,6:17 pm
Busybee:Thank you for your explanation of NCLB. You should be the one writing the article in the AL Trib about testing/NCLB. Judy Knudtson had a long article about it a few weeks ago and it was most confusing.
Posted by katlade on Sep. 28 2007,3:14 pm
(TameThaTane @ Sep. 26 2007,2:26 pm)
QUOTE
The time to learn languages are when you're a young child..the way the brain works...
The languages to learn would be Spanish today....Chinese in about 25 years.
About Prescott--->He's just trying to be a salesman and he's a bad one at that. Companies look at what location can serve their business interests. Schools would be WAY down the list and the difference between the way they are now and the way they'd be with another referendum would be so small as to be irrelevant. Same old song and dance, like with the court house. If we only give more tax money we'll get more industry. Total and complete BS. Was then and is now.
The languages to learn would be Spanish today....Chinese in about 25 years.
About Prescott--->He's just trying to be a salesman and he's a bad one at that. Companies look at what location can serve their business interests. Schools would be WAY down the list and the difference between the way they are now and the way they'd be with another referendum would be so small as to be irrelevant. Same old song and dance, like with the court house. If we only give more tax money we'll get more industry. Total and complete BS. Was then and is now.
The community would do well to do the research themselves instead of just believing what school boards and city administrators tell us.
What does a business look for when choosing a location? If you were doing the research for your company how would you rate the schools? Would new city lights even come into making a decision. Would improving some parts of the city and not other parts make sense.
Or would you want to know if there were going to be enough people qualified to fill positions pertinent to your specific business. What is the health care like? ( The Mayo name is highly respected)What is the crime rate in Albert Lea. ( I am guessing pretty low compared to other communities of the same size). There are many things that are considered .
Don't just assume that Dr. Prescott does not have other motives other than the best education for the students? Remember our former county commissioner? My opinion for what it is worth, is that he had his own interests and ego to feed.
Is having more money going to draw businesses to Albert Lea (is that not what they said about the new high school) or is having new businesses and a population growth going to bring more money to the school district. What came first, the chicken or the egg.
Posted by Wareagle11B on Sep. 29 2007,8:47 am
This referendum was planned before last years vote failed. They as much stated that when the levy vote failed they would just bring it up for another vote this November. No planning for what would be best to cut in the budget. No thought given to the expense of going to 7 periods vs 4. No thoughts at all on any of this other than to just BRING IT UP AGAIN IN A YEAR. 
The District 241 and TEAM spin machine is out in full force and they are attempting to influence the vote again this year by using our kids to tell the parents what will happen should this vote fail like last year. As someone else mentioned in their post....all this will do is upset the parents and then they will vote no because of this tactic used. It peeved me off to no end but I will be voting no for other reasons and not just that particular one.
Posted by Wolfie on Sep. 29 2007,4:30 pm
If there is such a huge budget shortfall that they have to cut programs and still be over budget. Can someone explain to me why they aren't cutting sports, don't get me wrong I am all for the team building skills associated with sports. But on the grand scheme of things would it not be more important if timmy graduated from high school being able to tell you how many eggs out of a dozen he has left if he uses 3 to make a cake, and other basic life skill areas. Yes it would be sad that timmy's ability to play (insert sport here) wasn't recognized and allowed to prosper but towards what end, a graduating class that can't function in life unless they are playing their sport. I am also not saying cut just sports, but also trim the fat. If its not a life skill needed to get along in basic life, then its on the chopping block. So I will be voting no for the referendum, not because I don't want my taxes to go up and not because I want the kids to suffer. But for the basic reason that the school district needs to be held accountable for poor performance and mismanagement of funds.
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 29 2007,10:30 pm
If they have to cut sports or music to make the budget Wolfie I would be more concerned about mismanagement. I wish I understood why people expect more out of them when we don't even support them as much as the residents of Glenville support their schools. Maybe part of the reason we don't grow is that we seem to be happy being below average and wondering why someone does not along and provide great paying jobs to people without skills.
Posted by TameThaTane on Sep. 30 2007,12:27 pm
^So, paying more taxes increases kids IQ's?Explain how that figment of your imagination works...
Posted by hot84svo on Sep. 30 2007,4:00 pm
QUOTE
I wish I understood why people expect more out of them when we don't even support them as much as the residents of Glenville support their schools.
What's the city tax rate in Glenville compared to Albert Lea's?
There is only so many dollars - who should have them the county and city or the schools?
Posted by This is my real name on Sep. 30 2007,8:05 pm
Has anybody seen the powerpoint presentation on the public access channel? District 241 has a slideshow demonstrating all the cuts they've made over the past 10 years or so - but no mention of years they were granted a referendum.They also compared percentages of spending on adminstrative salaries to smaller districts, pointing out Alden-Conger and Glenville-Emmons have higher percentages of their budget going toward salaries.
Of course it's higher. They have a smaller budget to work with. When you have less of something to begin with, anything you take from it is going to be a higher percentage of the total.
It would be more interesting to see what that translates into administrative salaries paid by district - real dollar amounts, and what it comes down to per capita (of salaries vs students enrolled in that district).
And these are the spin doctors... er, wizards, who are teaching the children of this community.
Posted by krdjis on Sep. 30 2007,8:57 pm
I'm going to vote "yes" for the referendum. District #241's administrative costs are lean compared to others in the Big Nine. Also, the percentage of local funds drawn upon as a source of the district's general fund is less than others in the Big Nine.% of Budget Spent on Administration
Comparison of Like Sized Big Nine School Districts
| Austin | 8.8% |
| Owatonna | 8.2% |
| Winona | 7.6% |
| Faribault | 7.5% |
| Albert Lea | 7.4% |
| State Average | 8.1% |
Local Funding Support of Schools
Comparison of Like Sized Big Nine School Districts
% of Total General Fund Revenue
| Winona | 11.5% |
| Austin | 9.6% |
| Owatonna | 8.9% |
| Faribault | 8.0% |
| Albert Lea | 7.3% |
| State Average | 11.8% |
<
District #241 Consolidated Financial Statement (pdf) >
Posted by wildjim on Sep. 30 2007,10:43 pm
2006 city tax Glenville $435 Albert Lea $415 for $100000 house.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 01 2007,1:36 am
Those numbers, if they mean anything, are that we're doing it best.That's why nobody's moving to Glenville. Three people moving in paying half the tax brings in more money. Want more school funds? Increase the populaton. More homes to tax.
Posted by Glad I Left on Oct. 01 2007,8:17 am
Does this comment in the tribune sum it up perfectly or what?QUOTE
“It’s been so long since I’ve had kids in the schools. Whatever they do, they must know what they’re doing.” — Vivian Miller, South Fourth Avenue
It's attitudes like that that keep clowns in office at ISD 241 and at the coucil.
Rather than do any research on my own I'll just trust those in charge and agree with any recommendation they make and vote yes.
Posted by hot84svo on Oct. 01 2007,8:37 am
Total Tax Capacity- City of Albert Lea2002- 7,047,105
2003- 7,533,282
2004- 8,082,457
2005- 8,285,209
2006- 8,890,809
Average 4.4% growth which is nice.
% of total dollars - City of Albert Lea
2002- 20.37
2003- 22.452
2004- 29.007
2005- 34.026
2006- 41.509
51% increase in 5 years!
% of total dollars -District 241
2002- 31.47
2003- 30.46
2004- 28.98
2005- 29.89
2006- 26.512
18% decrease in funds!
It is easy to see that the city's money grab is really the problem why people do not want higher taxes.
Does the City of Glenville get over 40% of the Total Tax Capacity?
Posted by busybee on Oct. 01 2007,9:40 am
Here's my take on things.This referendum shouldn't be about people voting yes in order to be comparable to other communities referendum dollar amounts. This shouldn't be about voting yes to prove to potential businesses that we support our students in hopes that they will locate here. This shouldn't be about voting yes so things can stay the same, or voting yes because of fearing the unknown "potential" cuts the district will make if it fails. This shouldn't be about voting yes because someone voted yes for you.
What this should be about is IMPROVING the EDUCATION of our students. It's sad that once again another referendum is not about the district and community working together to make WISE choices on budget issues while at the same time creating the opportunity to develop a BETTER educational system and outcome for our students. Even if this referendum passes, it's still not going to be the best our community and district can offer, we could do so much better than this.
I simply don't understand why it's so difficult to get past the "it's all or nothing" mentality when it comes to local funding in education. The district presents proposed referendums using that theory and many people accept their voting ballot answer as the only way to participate in the choices offered to students in our public education system.
Further, the victim role doesn't sit well with me when it comes to making decisions regarding children. The district seems to want to be the victim by appearing to have their "hands tied" because without local funding given the way they want it given and spent, they say they won't be able to continue offering children what they need. And, people in the community buy into that readily--the poor kids are the victims--we all should be willing to give to the district, otherwise we'll just be cheating the kids...what other choice do we have?
With this referendum, I don't see that much thought put into prioritizing educational needs vs wants or any intent on improving District 241's education of students. I mostly see a long list of "potential" cuts in which it's anyone's guess what actually will be cut if it doesn't pass. What kind of prioritizing list is that??? Will they simply throw all the potential cuts in a hat and randomly draw out each cut until they've made the cuts necessary if it doesn't pass?? Why can't we as a community affectively ask our district to be more accountable...not to us...but to the kids? Why is there never a middle ground...a compromise of sorts...a recognition that some cuts shouldn't be made, that some cuts can be made along with an effort to ask for extra funds to make IMPROVEMENTS?
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 01 2007,6:59 pm
Show me proof. Just one shred of proof increasing taxes makes kids smarter...
Posted by hot84svo on Oct. 01 2007,7:37 pm
Music classes = Smarter KIDsNO tax increase = No music classes
Therefore
Higher taxes = Smarter kids
Supporting info below:
Sorry, Kids, Piano Lessons Make You Smarter
E.J. Mundell for HealthDayNews
Scales today, Harvard tomorrow?
It's sure to be music to parents' ears: After nine months of weekly training in piano or voice, new research shows young students' IQs rose nearly three points more than their untrained peers.
The Canadian study lends support to the idea that musical training may do more for kids than simply teach them their scales--it exercises parts of the brain useful in mathematics, spatial intelligence and other intellectual pursuits.
"With music lessons, because there are so many different facets involved--such as memorizing, expressing emotion, learning about musical interval and chords--the multidimensional nature of the experience may be motivating the [IQ] effect," said study author E. Glenn Schellenberg, of the University of Toronto at Mississauga.
A decade ago, researchers led by the University of Wisconsin's Frances Rauscher found that simply listening to Mozart triggered temporary increases in spatial intelligence.
While the "Mozart Effect" has proven difficult to replicate in subsequent studies, the idea that music or musical training might raise IQ took hold in the scientific community.
In his study, slated for publication in the August issue of Psychological Science, Schellenberg offered 12 Toronto-area 6-year-olds free weekly voice or piano lessons at the Royal Conservatory of Music, described by Schellenberg as Canada's "most prestigious music conservatory."
He chose 6-year-olds because their developing brains still retain a large degree of "plasticity," defined as "the ability of the brain to change and adapt to environmental stimuli."
On the other hand, children younger than 6 were deemed less suitable "because you also want the lessons to be rigorous enough, and you can't really start serious musical training with 4-year-olds," he said.
Schellenberg also wanted to separate out the effect on IQ of training in music per se, from that of training in the arts in general. To do this, he provided a third group of 6-year-olds with free, weekly drama classes. A fourth group of 6-year-olds received no classes during the study period.
The children's IQs were tested beforehand using the full Weschler intelligence test, which assesses various aspects of intellectual function in ten separate areas. All of the children, Schellenberg explained, "came into my lab in the summer before first grade and they had the entire test, which takes about three hours."
Following that initial assessment, the children "went off to first grade and to the four different groups that they were assigned. Then, in between first and second grade, they came back to the lab and were retested."
At the time of retesting, all of the students--even those not enrolled in music or drama classes--displayed increases in IQ of at least 4.3 points, on average, Schellenberg said. "That's just a common consequence of going to school," he said.
Focusing first on the children taking the drama class, Schellenberg found they "didn't differ [in increased IQ] from those in the no-lessons group." However, kids taking the acting class did tend to score higher on aspects of sociability than other children, probably due to the cooperative nature of putting on a play.
The only added boost to IQ came to kids taught either piano or voice. According to Schellenberg, children in the music groups "had slightly larger increases in IQ than the control groups," averaging 7-point gains in their IQ scores from the previous year--2.7 points higher than children placed in either the drama or no-lessons group.
This increase in IQ is considered small but significant, and was evident across the broad spectrum of intelligence measured by the Weschler test, Schellenberg said.
Commenting on the study, Rauscher said, "It certainly supports a lot of the research that we've done in the past." The Canadian researcher's results deviate from her own, she said, "in that they found this effect for general intelligence."
Rauscher's work has tended to focus on music's effects on spatial intelligence--the ability to think through three-dimensional puzzles without resorting to an actual model.
Although it remains a theory, she speculated that "understanding music, particularly learning to translate musical symbols into sound, might be transferring to other abilities, because they are sharing similar neuro pathways."
Both Schellenberg and Rauscher agreed that, ideally, music lessons should be available to children as part of their education.
"We don't have any evidence that music is unique in this regard," Schellenberg said, "but on the other hand, it's certainly not bad for you. Our studies suggest that extracurricular activities are indeed enriching to development."
Unfortunately, adults who might feel emboldened to pick up the guitar or stretch their vocal skills may not receive the same boost to brainpower.
"I really think you'll find the strongest effects for young children," Rauscher said. "That's not to say that you won't find anything in adults, but I think it would be a lot harder and would really take a lot longer."
Posted by busybee on Oct. 01 2007,9:59 pm
QUOTE
NO tax increase = No music classes
Did you take the time to read the proposed cuts list with the amount of revenue each would put back into the general budget? Why would the district choose to have no music classes when they have so many other cuts to choose from?? Further, on the district website, the power point states they "might" have to REDUCE music. Where do you get the idea that it's all or nothing??
Just so you know, music is one cut reduction I don't think the district should even be considering.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 01 2007,10:49 pm
(busybee @ Oct. 01 2007,9:59 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
NO tax increase = No music classes
Did you take the time to read the proposed cuts list with the amount of revenue each would put back into the general budget? Why would the district choose to have no music classes when they have so many other cuts to choose from?? Further, on the district website, the power point states they "might" have to REDUCE music. Where do you get the idea that it's all or nothing??
Just so you know, music is one cut reduction I don't think the district should even be considering.
I would hope they would not cut music after the cuts last year. We lost three really good music teachers. Losing Mrs Fitz was esp sad. So while the positions are still there the lessons are not.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 02 2007,5:10 am
QUOTE
Show me proof. Just one shred of proof increasing taxes makes kids smarter...
Increased taxes, or an increases in money won't make anyone smarter, not even adults. However, money is necessary...we all need money in order to survive, even in education. It's not always right, or fair that everyone has to participate in giving money to the American public school system, but it is what it is. We do live in the 13th most expensive country in the world, kind of difficult to think education is going to continue without being impacted by that. No matter how much money we fund locally, the district is going to have to continue considering making cuts and continue asking the community for increases in local funding. This is why it is important for us to consider what prioritizes an excellent education in our local public schools.
Posted by hot84svo on Oct. 02 2007,8:42 am
Music classes will be dropped to much lower level of training and music staff will be reduced. Less music training = lower IQ's >>
Posted by busybee on Oct. 02 2007,1:14 pm
You still aren't asking yourself the toughest question of all...WHY would the district consider reducing music instead of something else? Is there evidence of some kind that proves athletics increases IQ's? Is there evidence of some kind that contracting out custodial services to save money (which they admit) would decrease IQ's? How about elective fluff courses like home interior design or ceramics, do you think there's proof they can benefit the IQ like music does?
I've said it before, I don't think of music as an elective. I think all students benefit from exposure to music cirriculum, some more than others, but realistically music is something that most of us enjoy in some way or another for a lifetime.
The proposed cuts/reductions is more than just a list...it's a description of what our district and school board believe our students can do WITHOUT having if they don't get the funding they want. Once again, I ask those of you who want to vote yes out of fear of students losing something valuable in academic achievement (like music) why you are so willing to accomodate passing the referendum knowing that some things on the list could actually be cut because they do NOT affect academic achievement? Why isn't the district offering choices...such as making cuts where appropriate and asking for the same amount of funding with a plan to use the "extra" revenue generated from those appropriate cuts to make improvements in an area such as music?
Instead, we are put into a positition of feeling miserable for voting no and not quite so miserable for voting yes. It's either we vote to save the kids or vote to destroy the kids. It's all or nothing because we allow this to continue. What a disservice to all the children who are served by our public school system. We allow a few people to determine all the priorities and the only day we consider any accountability out of those few people is on a referendum voting day. Even then, we don't have choices in setting priorities, we only vote on theirs.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 02 2007,1:23 pm
QUOTE
We allow a few people to determine all the priorities and the only day we consider any accountability out of those few people is on a referendum voting day. Even then, we don't have choices in setting priorities, we only vote on theirs.
Exactly!!!!
And unfortunately very disturbing that so many people in this community are still being manipulated and/or drug by their nose from people who "are voted/hired" by us to do the best job for our childrens futures not their own.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 02 2007,2:33 pm
QUOTE
District #241's administrative costs are lean compared to others in the Big Nine.
Big deal! How or why does that have anything to do with a referendum that is supposed to be about giving our students the best in order to draw more companys in?
There's a reason for voting yes
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 02 2007,4:01 pm
Why can't parents use the tax savings for music lessons? Make no mistake about it. This is not about spending your own money. It's about voting for others to spend theirs. Anyone who thinks the district deserves more money can give them funds at any time they want. But they don't want to do that. They want to force you to give yours. THAT'S what this is really about.
Posted by hot84svo on Oct. 02 2007,4:17 pm
QUOTE
Make no mistake about it. This is not about spending your own money. It's about voting for others to spend theirs. Anyone who thinks the district deserves more money can give them funds at any time they want. But they don't want to do that. They want to force you to give yours. THAT'S what this is really about
.Socialized Education requires everyone to spend money on education.
If you don't like the system you spend even more for a private education.
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 02 2007,4:55 pm
QUOTE
QUOTE
District #241's administrative costs are lean compared to others in the Big Nine.
Big deal! How or why does that have anything to do with a referendum that is supposed to be about giving our students the best...
I guess I should have clarified why I wrote what I did about lean administrative costs. One of the more common reasons folks give for voting "no" is that our district's administrative costs are too high...and if we reduced those costs we'd have enough money to fund ISD #241's budget woes. Our district's administrative costs aren't too high. In fact, they are lower than similar sized schools in the Big Nine.
Some people say the district should tell everyone exactly what they're going to cut, and not make a big threatening list just to scare everyone...and then later only follow through on parts of it. I agree. The district should say exactly what they'll cut...and cut it. That said, quality education, though not entirely dependent on funding, has a lot to do with having the money needed to hire teachers and offer quality programs to students.
Though the district has been clear as mud about what actually suffers as a result of reduced funding, I believe their muddy presentation is the symptom of a poor marketing strategy, not a deliberate attempt to create confusion so that they can make a quick buck at the community's expense. They need the money.
Finally, I'm fairly certain some folks who are strongly against the referendum will be strongly against the referendum no matter how the district couches their campaign...or how perfectly clear their needs are stated. The same is probably true on the other side of the argument as well.
I wonder how many undecided people there are. We should have had that been another option in the survey. I have a feeling there are a large number of people who actually aren't sure how they'll vote. I don't blame anyone for being utterly confused by the whole process. Clear information is hard to find. If this referendum doesn't pass, it will be because the administration hasn't been absolutely transparent about what they need and why.
It's simple. Just say (...and I'm making this up so don't quote me on it...), "Next year our average classroom size will go from 25 to 30 because we will have fewer teachers. In addition, the orchestra will meet once a week rather than four times a week because of reduced funding." Don't say, "We might not have a music program next year." That doesn't tell anyone anything, or give them enough information to vote intelligently.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 02 2007,5:18 pm
Maybe some of you just don't understand what Tame keeps saying or maybe it's the fact that you don't want to hear what he's saying. QUOTE
Make no mistake about it. This is not about spending your own money. It's about voting for others to spend theirs. Anyone who thinks the district deserves more money can give them funds at any time they want. But they don't want to do that. They want to force you to give yours. THAT'S what this is really about.
As in the last failed referendum, I saw no movement from the TEAM players to go ahead and start a campaign to raise the money through donations and tax contributions. Crap, they couldn't even raise the money they wanted to run their brain washed TEAM organization. They approached the PTA's and asked for them to give money out of their individual funds to help finance their cause.
When I start seeing that such and such businesses donated $XX,XXX to the school general education fund (not to the athletic department) and George and Margie donated $XXX and Joe and Bill donated $XXX to the education of district 241, then these mislead thumpers will have a leg to stand on and ask for another referendum.
If they are in such dire straits, maybe they should work more towards charitable donations from businesses and individuals to raise their money much like the United Way does. Heck, if people knew just how beneficial this money was going to be used to better educate our youth, they shouldhave no problem raising the money.
Just to repeat what Tame is saying,
QUOTE
Make no mistake about it. This is not about spending your own money. It's about voting for others to spend theirs. Anyone who thinks the district deserves more money can give them funds at any time they want. But they don't want to do that. They want to force you to give yours. THAT'S what this is really about.
Posted by banquo on Oct. 02 2007,5:23 pm
Good post Krdjis and welcome back! Off topic but I kind of miss your songs that you used to post on here. Some of them were quite good IMHO.
Posted by OEF_Soldier on Oct. 02 2007,5:46 pm
So perhaps someone can tell me why we have, according to the District Webpage, 479 classes. How many of these are, as BB said, Fluff classes and how many are absolutely necessary? I agree that by targeting music they may wind up shooting themselves in the foot but perhaps thats what they will give for an excuse NEXT year when we once again fail in the statewide testing for NCLB.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 02 2007,5:48 pm
I agree with Banquo, good post k. Much better put than the previous one. For the posters from other areas here is TEAM/District 241 propaganda from the Trib.
Group advocates in favor of school levy
By Sarah Kirchner, staff writer
Tuesday, October 2, 2007 9:26 AM CDT
Together Education Achieves More is at it again this year, campaigning to pass the Albert Lea School District operating levy referendum in November, with members believing wholeheartedly in the cause.
The group may seem more visible this year. Their primary effort to get the referendum passed is to educate the public through “door-to-door, face-to-face” tactics, said co-organizer Tom Ehrhardt. “We really get motivated and activated at referendum time.”
TEAM is a grass-roots group made up of school employees, parents, community leaders and members of the business community who have come together to support the referendum and encourage the community to vote yes.
Within the next few weeks, the nearly 100 volunteers with TEAM will knock on doors in the Albert Lea School District to talk to voters about the levy referendum in November.
The group is not out to convince voters, but simply to educate about the referendum through “an informational campaign” and encourage a yes vote, Ehrhardt said.
The district is asking voters to pass a levy referendum giving more funding to the local schools. If the referendum doesn’t pass, the district will have to cut $2 million from the general fund.
The Albert Lea school board can’t officially do a campaign encouraging a yes vote, ( Hasn't seemed to stop them before) said board Vice Chairman Bill Leland, “so it’s paramount that we have a citizen’s group like TEAM.”
“It’s great to have the support for our school system and also to advocate for kids,” said school board Chairman Ken Petersen. “We can’t thank them enough for their time and are glad for their support.”
TEAM members Kevin and Jill Nelson have two young children, one already in the school system, so they feel passing the referendum is important for the future of their children’s education and the community.
“I feel that our school system is great and I want to keep it that way,” Jill said.
She and Kevin are also graduates of Albert Lea High School.
“We want our kids to have the same opportunities we did growing up.”
“This is important for our community as well,” Kevin added, saying good schools attract all types of families to the community.
“I think the big thing is keeping Albert Lea growing in a positive way,” Jill said. “I think schools are the main key to that.”
Many members of TEAM believe the referendum doesn’t only affect the schools, it will help boost the community and economy. (Here we go again, last I checked the school has been here since 2000 with a DECLINING population since then)
Jill Harves, also a TEAM member and an employee of the district, said businesses look at schools before they come to town. Having good schools helps grow the local economy.“Without strong schools we don’t have a very strong community,” she said.
When people look to move to a new city, TEAM member and district employee Debbie Goodnature said, they look to the schools first. The growth of the community is affected by the schools.
“If we have a second-rate school system, we will have a second-rate economy,” she said.
(That's why the new school was built in the first place, didn't seem to help)But it isn’t just workers for the school district and the parents involved in the push to pass the referendum.
Jeff Laeger-Hagemeister is newer to Albert Lea — having lived here only 4 1/2 years compared to the citizens who spent their whole lives in the area — and doesn’t have any kids in the district, nor has he ever.
“I just believe that this is important,” he said. “The community has to be a good community and the school has to be a good school.”
(IMO, this IS a good community and a good school with ot without a yes vote)
Laeger-Hagemeister, a chaplain at St. Johns Lutheran Home, said he doesn’t understand why people without kids in the district feel detached from the issue. He asks: Who helped pay for the school when their kids were attending?
“A good school is critical,” he said. (...and THAT is exactly why it was built in the first place)
TEAM was created five years ago to help pass a levy referendum in 2002. Its purpose is to help the school district pass operating and bond levy referendums.
***Yet again, we’ve had this new “marketing feature” since 2000, has this philosophy worked as of yet? How has our population “expanded since the building of the new “draw” in 2000? Same sorry story that this town seems to hold on to: “If we have the best, even if we can’t afford it, we will get the best. ***
There is no political agenda, Ehrhardt said, other than focusing on education.
Ehrhardt said it acts as a public resources
(really? Has there been any answers given for the failure of the AYP for three years? The $35,000.00 in going back to the seven period school year? The option of having contracted out janitorial? Why 241 won't go fo the we pay one million if district 241 cuts one million?)
for the community and anyone interested in volunteering or more information can get in touch with the group.
Together Education Achieves More meets at 6:30 p.m. every Monday at Brookside Education Center in Room 130.
**Let me get this straight, TEAM is made up of various people including board members and school employees voting on their stability of employment in our education system PLUS they get to have their meetings in a SCHOOL building, the teachers are able to tell the students how their parents should vote and when we get school literature there’s “plugs” about the referendum? WHY wouldn’t they want people to vote yes? This isn’t about students, as they would like us to believe, it is about job security,
Posted by OEF_Soldier on Oct. 02 2007,5:51 pm
Letter to the Editor. Whether or not it gets published remains to be seen.So once again we have District 241 and TEAM getting together to proclaim the absolute need for this referendum. Once more our kids are being told that if their parents don't vote yes then the classes they may like to take next year could be removed and they could otherwise suffer due to the failure to pass this levy. If, like myself, other parents are finding these tactics offensive then TEAM and District 241 will see the levy fail come November. To Dr. Prescott and the members of TEAM I find the tactics of your "spin machine" to be deplorable. Using the kids to try to influence the way I, and others, will vote is reprehensible. Your organizations had a year and in that year you failed to develop a plan that would involve both cutting out the financial fat as well as asking for a reduced levy because of those cuts along with keeping us in the district informed of what steps the District was taking as far as the financial picture looked. Instead your choice was to just bring the levy up for a vote again this year. Our schools have failed in critical areas of the NCLB testing and yet you come to us asking for more money. 3 years in a row we have failed to progress in areas such as math and yet no response from anyone on the district staff on how they intend to fix it. Last year the levy failed and yet no plan on how your organization would adapt and where you would cut money out of the budget. There is a lot of fat that can be trimmed from the budget and not all of it is within the 479 classes that are offered at the ALHS. Contracting out the District labor to local businesses would save a lot of money in wages, insurance, and overtime and be a plus to the local economy. This is but one area, of many, where we could begin cutting off the fat that is within the school district budget.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 02 2007,6:34 pm
Can we do anything other than voice our opinion on here or attempt to get a letter to the editor printed? Any ideas or suggestions?
Posted by january on Oct. 02 2007,8:29 pm
Busybee:Yes, I think so. Why not organize( have a number to call and all get together somewhere) then petition KATE Radio to give equal time to this group. Have AL Tribune come and interview members of this group.
I know Bianca went before the City Counsel this past summer and she is a real leader. How about it Bianca?
I think it would be advantageous to go to the Senior Court and High Rise as well as the Elder Cares to talk with the older folks in Albert Lea
I previously ran for public office and my opponent was amazed at the number of votes I got. I really focused on groups of people.
Busybee, you are extremely knowledgeable.
And believe you me, this is not just about money with me. I am really sick of being condescended to by TEAM and the Administration. Failing test after test is not right. It is not condusive to quality in my world. To keep the current quality of education we have when we are failing makes no sense. Blaming NCLB mandates, making excuse after excuse, crying that it just isn't fair and "look we aren't the only ones' failing is no way to teach our children. Looking the voters in the eye. Stating "We failed" "We need your help" "Do you have any ideas?" "We need to revamp our system" THAT would be responsible and THAT is a lesson in accountability.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 02 2007,9:34 pm
QUOTE
Why can't parents use the tax savings for music lessons?
Make no mistake about it. This is not about spending your own money. It's about voting for others to spend theirs. Anyone who thinks the district deserves more money can give them funds at any time they want. But they don't want to do that. They want to force you to give yours. THAT'S what this is really about.
Make no mistake about it. This is not about spending your own money. It's about voting for others to spend theirs. Anyone who thinks the district deserves more money can give them funds at any time they want. But they don't want to do that. They want to force you to give yours. THAT'S what this is really about.
Although I think music should be part of cirriculum...I understand exactly what you are saying.
Both of my older kids have each been exceling in their sport of choice since grade school, but since they are not recognized by the public school system, I don't get the opportunity to include my kids sports as a "reason" to pass the referendum. To my kids, their sport is just as important (possibly more) to them as any other child interested in a school sport. My older kids and I work together to get them the things they need such as equipment, fees for events, extra practice time, etc... My kids aren't afraid to put forth the effort to support the establishments that contribute to their sports by working for free...and it pays off. They also work out deals with others who can help them out, such as with training, equipment maintainance, discounts, etc... They are highly respected not just for their ability and passion for thier sports, but also for their respectful attitudes and work ethics. I absolutely love it! It's an awesome world out there and too many people depend upon the public schools to determine childrens priorities for them.
I don't at all regret that my children didn't pick a public school priority sport. No way could they have learned all they have in that environment. I have no regrets in my choice or any resentment with the public school system for not making others accountable for their sports. My kids and I own that success, no one else! However, I still think the public school system is screwed up. It's never been an opportunity for ALL participation in sports, only a few reap the real benefits or have a real passion for the sport they choose. If public schools desire to support athletic programs and want to make everyone contribute financially for the ones they prioritize, maybe the system would work better towards benefitting all students if they just gave a certain amount of money to each family per year for students to participate in something that interests them. It would probably be cheaper in the long run.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 03 2007,1:43 am
Good post OEF Was Krdjis the one married to a teacher who did the Harriet Meyers song. Ya, I liked his songwritng. Post more or the old ones again, would you?
Posted by bianca on Oct. 03 2007,2:44 am
QUOTE
Together Education Achieves More meets at 6:30 p.m. every Monday at Brookside Education Center in Room 130.
I wonder if the school would let us meet at the Brookside Education Center in say.... room 132?
I'm sorry, couldn't resist.
OEF, very well written article. Letters to the Editor are STILL a very good tool to get your point heard. I'm actually surprised at how many people still do get the paper, especially the elderly.
Nursing homes will actually have someone read the paper to the residents so it still remains to be a powerful tool. I can't imagine that TEAM will miss that opportunity to prey on the vulnerable adults there with their "let's do it for the kids and the community" mantra.
As january hinted: we all know the elderly vote is an important one in this town. IMO, the sites january mentioned will prove to be important come election time. The elderly will usually make it out to vote whether it is a crummy day or not, where the middle ages will be "iffy" at times.
I think krdjis had a very valid point in mentioning that there are probably a lot of "undecided" still at this point in the game. People really don't know how, or where, to start at trying to sift out fact from fiction. TEAM is going to try once again the "pull on the heart strings" tactic and I'm not quite sure how the face-to-face door peddling will do for their cause but I guess we'll see.
I also think that there are people that are going to keep their feet firmly planted in a position, again like krdjis posted, no matter what they hear. But I think that still leaves you with a good sized portion, maybe even 35-50% of the voters, that are still trying to weigh the pros to the cons.
IMO, this goes far behind the administration costs now. This may have been a big deterrent, for at least myself, last year but this year it is more about the "bang for the buck." There are just way too many unanswered questions or facts that get swept under the tiger
Ken Peterson aka peter, had the guts to come on here and post but when called out on the NCLB testing we haven't heard anything back from him. That in itself, speaks volumes to me.
I also think the Trib, as usual, has done a disservice to the community by letting the guest writers do articles furthering the agenda of TEAM and by doing the TEAM article Tuesday without getting opposing views on this "supposed" grass-roots group.
(TEAM= Teachers and Employees who Abhor money Management.)Has anyone listened to partyline on this issue? Has it been brought up? I know Uncle Darryl will usually put in his two cents about a matter so I am curious as to how he is "leaning" in this matter as long as his wife is an employee of the district.
I would hope that people wouldn't have to go so far as petitioning in order to voice an opinion on a vote that will effect the whole community.Many on this forum have brought up good suggestions to gather clear information and/or getting the correct information out there, the media is definitely wanting to hear from the "other side" of TEAM but I think holding out some ammunition
I mean information until closer to voting wasn't a bad idea either. I just had an unexpected mishap and work odd hours but I am game, need be, to do some group brainstorming if we could get the information out and a place to meet in time for people to come. Does anyone know if there is a place to meet with free or nominal fees to meet? IMO, the only way this might be an option is if people still would be able to keep their anonymity on here if we meet somewhere.
But I could be wrong.
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 03 2007,10:10 am
QUOTE
Off topic but I kind of miss your songs that you used to post on here. Some of them were quite good IMHO.
QUOTE
Ya, I liked his songwritng. Post more or the old ones again, would you?
Geeze, thanks for the kind words. I'll see if I can come up with a referendum song. It will probably be just as cheezy and wierd as the old ones, but you all don't seem to mind.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 03 2007,11:08 am
^^No pressure there, huh?
Posted by bianca on Oct. 03 2007,11:50 am
QUOTE
Why can't parents use the tax savings for music lessons?
QUOTE
Although I think music should be part of cirriculum...
***I think what people keep missing here, and it feeds right into what the district "wants the public to think",
is the FACT that these are scare tactics or selling tactics.The district has yet to come out and say If the referendum does not pass music WILL be dropped, sports WILL be dropped and etc.
Everyone keeps getting all "jazzed up" and that's exactly what they want but the overall public fails to read through the lines or comprehend what the district are really just threatening with.
The district in all of the propaganda I have seen has said. " this COULD be dropped IF the referendum doesn't pass. They refuse to speak in definitives because either 1) It really won't happen either way or
2) It will happen whether or not the referendum is passed or not.
People have got to start understanding EXACTLY what they are saying and what they are only "HINTING" at or "THREATENING" to do.
**Please don't forget the very night that the school referendum did NOT pass last year Dr. Prescott was on KAAL. When asked what the school district planned on doing now.... he said "we will just have to come back next year and try it again." and after he realized maybe that was not the politically correct thing to say coming from the head honcho he added, "well of course this is not a decision I could make. It would have to be a decision the school board would have to make."
DIDN'T SEE THIS COMING!
This is exactly why I keep bringing up the 7 periods going to 4 periods going back to seven periods again thus costing us $35,000.00 more than we didn't have and again without choice they just decided to do it NOT having the money.
They used the "we might have to go to four periods which will cost less money than the 7 we currently have" only to go back to the original after one year. The money saved may as well been thrown out the door.
The same with the administrative fees they knew this was a "sore spot" with the public so they changed the titles of administrators in order to appear as though they don't have as many as they had.
Do you really think with the new title came a salary decrease or was this done to "appease" the negative publicity on having three asst. principals at the time at the highschool?
You really have to read through the lines. Take a look at any of the propaganda they have sent. PLEASE! TAKE THE TIME TO DO THIS WITHOUT "REACTING" FIRST.
As far as I have seen, and correct me if I am wrong, they have YET to say" IF the referendum does not pass this sport/music/extra-curricular WILL BE CUT rather than MIGHT be cut.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 03 2007,12:34 pm
Here's my open letter to the editor in case it doesn't get printed, please feel free to add questions as you like or print them off and ask TEAM when you hear the little knock-knock at your door.In response to the most recent District 241/TEAM propaganda: When TEAM aka District 241 come knocking at your doors a few questions you might want to ask:
1. What exactly WILL POSITIVELY be cut/dropped if I vote no?
2. If I vote yes, can you ASSURE me that the district, as a whole, after failing 3 years in a row Math and Reading proficiencies on the AYP (Annual Yearly Progress) reports through the NCLB (No Child Left Behind) testing, will pass the testing from here on out?
3. What has the school district done on their own to cut costs?
4. Does the district have a plan on what will happen next year if I vote yes and they run out of money again other than asking for another levy?
5. We can’t rely on funding, what plan is in place NOW for this regardless of how I vote?
6. You keep referring to a strong school equals a strong community and attracts new businesses/people although we have had this school and the new courthouse for years and the population is STILL on the DECLINE. The school was built in 2007 with this philosophy, where are the people? How can you PROVE to me that a yes vote is going to bolster an economy and a community 7 years later?
7. Why does or has the district refused to look at different remedies such as:The school district WILL work with the community and ask the people what they would like to see cut IF the community will give one million dollars? Split the deficit right down the line.
8. The youngest I have heard a TEAM postcard to go out to and addressed to was a four year old child, based on the reading proficiency findings, do you feel that was a money conscious idea?
9. Why would the school district go back to a seven period day this year if they KNEW it would cost $35,000.00 that they didn’t have after the district cut the periods to four to “cut costs” in the first place?
10. I realize there “MAY” be teachers/staff jobs on the line here but doesn’t it really come down to a matter of scruples when a teacher tells a student how their parents should vote in order to get your agenda across?
You really have to read through the lines. Take a look at any of the propaganda TEAM/District 241 has sent. PLEASE! TAKE THE TIME TO DO THIS WITHOUT "REACTING" FIRST.
As far as I have seen, and correct me if I am wrong, they have YET to say" IF the referendum does not pass this sport/music/extra-curricular/staff/class etc. WILL BE CUT rather than MIGHT/COULD be cut.
Before I write out my check I want to know definitives not just coulds.
Posted by This is my real name on Oct. 03 2007,12:36 pm
What would be the worst thing that could happen if the district did have to make a few cuts to art and music?When I was in fourth grade, we didn't have an art teacher who came to our school that year, or a music teacher - but we didnt' go without. Our teacher took it upon himself to lead us in songs, with the help of an overhead projector, and also gave us art projects to work on. As I recall, we also had an entire unit focusing on three specific items (simultaneously, but in rotation): guitar lessons, astronomy and photography.
The next year was the year they closed Ramsey. I don't recall the teachers ever harping on us to tell our parents the school needed more money - they were simply cutting corners where they could, or taking on more responsibilities when the situation called for it. My fourth grade teacher was one of the best teachers I ever had.
Where are the teachers like that today? Why are they hiding behind children, making threats? Isn't that what terrorists do?
Posted by This is my real name on Oct. 03 2007,12:38 pm
One thing I want to know is what happens if, for some reason, the cuts made at the state level are restored after a referendum is passed?Are they going to cancel that referendum?
I know, I know:
Posted by DrBombay on Oct. 03 2007,1:58 pm
You guys have posted a wealth of reasons and convincing information to vote NO on the referendum. In my opinion there are enough voters in the district who oppose this referendum passing for their own reasons without any convincing at all. Sadly, most won't go to the polls on election day, or even know the election is being held.On the other hand TEAM is organized and they're on the move. Propaganda and brainwashing tactics aside, their main purpose is to Get Out The Vote! And they will, and they will win.
This is a special election that will have a low voter turnout. Most of the folks with the best voting records won't even show up that day, they may not even know the election is going on.
The No-voters have to organize a campaign of their own to simply Get out the VOTE or the Referendum will pass.
If someone wants to set up an informal counter insurgency meeting to share some ideas.........I'm in! The sooner the better. It could be at the Public Library or anywhere. We really don't have time to argue about TEAM having a district meeting place. Besides, why would we want them to know what we're up to anyway?
Let me know where and when.
Posted by Glad I Left on Oct. 03 2007,2:50 pm
< AL Trib TEAM Article >QUOTE
Together Education Achieves More is at it again this year, campaigning to pass the Albert Lea School District operating levy referendum in November, with members believing wholeheartedly in the cause.
QUOTE
The group is not out to convince voters, but simply to educate about the referendum through “an informational campaign” and encourage a yes vote, Ehrhardt said.
So they're not out to convince voters, but if we 'were' to try and convicnce you, we would want you to vote yes. Oh, I get it now.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 03 2007,2:58 pm
dr. Bombay,You are exactly right about voter turn-out.
I have received numerous emails on this meeting which is a great idea? Can a public group meet at the library?My problem is finding a spot, not whether we could get a voice or not. If people are interested in getting the NO (until there are better solutions) vote out please pm me with ideas,suggestions, etc. I think a brainstorming session would be great. I will pm more individually if interested. This week I, personally, am out of commission so to speak,
as are a couple of other very strongly opinionated forum comrades but if anyone else is interesting in getting this going strong before next week please volunteer. It really does just take one voice, one letter, one visit to a nursing home, one contact at a communications media, one coffee place to make a difference when you have people who truly believe in a cause. Everyone excells in different areas so share your area if you can.
Like Dr. Bombay said, it will come down to WHO actually votes. Our job.... should you choose to accept it
is.....convincing them to go even if it means mentioning ride-shares.
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 03 2007,6:28 pm
Among the reasons why folks disagree with the referendum, is it mostly because the district has been vague about what they're going to cut? Scare tactics are a really bad idea, but they still need the money. I'm not going to vote "no" just to punish the district for their lousy marketing capabilities. I really, honestly, do not believe the district is asking for any more than what a school district needs to operate and give its kids a quality, consistent education.
Last year the district cut custodial staff, which makes custodians' jobs harder. It may not be a visible or sexy budget cut that scares people, but it is important that the districts' custodial staff are not overworked.
Weak marketing tactics are just that, weak marketing tactics. What do you expect from a school district? Their job is to educate our students, not to launch flawless referendum initiatives time and time again. Because, frankly, they're annoying and take up a lot of folks' time and energy...either in their ranting for it or ranting against it. Bottom line, district #241 needs more money.
Some folks have suggested that they raise money the way the United Way does. The United Way in Albert Lea does a lot of good for folks here, but they have a tough time raising money. And, frankly, they don't raise very much of it. I really don't think the district could possibly ever sustain itself on United Way-like contributions. Nor should it.
Posted by january on Oct. 03 2007,8:06 pm
bianca,Just tried to message you but I could not get the thing to work. I can only do the very basic computer stuff, sorry. Got the message however. You say when and where, and I am in.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 03 2007,8:39 pm
I don't know if the biggest reason is that the district has been vague. Read and listen to the comments coming from people who say they are against it. To me it sounds more like the main reasons are that people in this community are sick and tired of being taxed to death by the city, county and watershed board. And yes, the ditrict has continued to increase their needs too. I wrap these three together because they are the only other taxing bodies in this county. They take the taxes they want. The school board is the only taxing body that needs our opinion on if they can tax us.
Have they really shown that the increases in taxes they have gotten from us have shown us the "bang for the buck" they and their backers promised?
Scare tactics, of course that's a poor way of pushing their wants onto the community. I think everyone but them realizes that.
The districts cuts in custodial staff is not surprising. When a business trims employees, they always start at the bottom believing that lower paying support staff is the easiest and least noticeable to the public. They cut staff and redistribute the workload. Don't you realize these kind of cuts are made in companies all over?
So what you're saying is you believe they are using weak sales tactics? Obviously they don't think so. Don't give me that crap about
QUOTE
"What do you expect from a school district? Their job is to educate our students, not to launch flawless referendum initiatives time and time again."
Don't kid yourself. They have many marketing tools at their disposal and many major players backing them. Marketeers like the Tribune, the Chamber and obviously the city and county will only speak in a positive manner. KATE will take a neutral stand, but individually will market for the district. The same goes for KAAL. Company heads are on their TEAM. People whose job it is to market their own company are involved. A good salesman can sell ice to an eskimo and they have them.
Bottom line is the district needs the money? I'm not sure if they do or not.
You posted
QUOTE
I'm going to vote "yes" for the referendum. District #241's administrative costs are lean compared to others in the Big Nine. Also, the percentage of local funds drawn upon as a source of the district's general fund is less than others in the Big Nine.
% of Budget Spent on Administration
Comparison of Like Sized Big Nine School Districts
Austin 8.8%
Owatonna 8.2%
Winona 7.6%
Faribault 7.5%
Albert Lea 7.4%
State Average 8.1%
Local Funding Support of Schools
Comparison of Like Sized Big Nine School Districts
% of Total General Fund Revenue
Winona 11.5%
Austin 9.6%
Owatonna 8.9%
Faribault 8.0%
Albert Lea 7.3%
State Average 11.8%
Does this mean that we are this much too lean on our school district or these others have that much more fat?% of Budget Spent on Administration
Comparison of Like Sized Big Nine School Districts
Austin 8.8%
Owatonna 8.2%
Winona 7.6%
Faribault 7.5%
Albert Lea 7.4%
State Average 8.1%
Local Funding Support of Schools
Comparison of Like Sized Big Nine School Districts
% of Total General Fund Revenue
Winona 11.5%
Austin 9.6%
Owatonna 8.9%
Faribault 8.0%
Albert Lea 7.3%
State Average 11.8%
Why is raising the money needed similar to the United Way so bad? The United Way of Freeborn County hopes to raise $562,000 this year. They do this consistently year after year. It's all about marketing and giving people the opportunity to give only if they want to. People don't like to be forced into anything. They become defensive. Hey, you have to admit, it's most people nature. As I said, they do have the people and tools to do it.
Dr. Bombay is right. If people can organize and raise the money to put forth the advertising and campaigning to get out the need to all the voting public, and show them the urgency of voting, I don't think this referendum stands a chance.
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 03 2007,10:13 pm
CODE
To me it sounds more like the main reasons are that people in this community are sick and tired of being taxed to death by the city, county and watershed board.
Actually, Albert Lea's property taxes are fairly low. And are sales taxes aren't outrageous either. That said, if you can show me statistics that show we pay more than other cities, I'll eat my words.
Your point about other districts being a bit fat in their spending is a point well taken. I guess I brought that up to show that we're doing better than they are; I don't know for sure that spending practices in those schools are particularly solid. At least those statistics give us some idea of where we stand.
CODE
So what you're saying is you believe they are using weak sales tactics? Obviously they don't think so. Don't give me that crap...
For all their marketing efforts, there are still a lot of people who are uncertain why the district needs money. The information is out there, but it has not been well-organized or particularly well-presented. And though there are a lot of major players volunteering, that's exactly what they are: 'volunteers'. There are bits and pieces of people's time and energy all strung together here and there, which makes it very hard to create a cohesive and consistent message.
The real difference here is this, you say you don't think the district needs money and I say it does. I'm voting "yes" for the referendum, not because I've been knocked dead with a fantastic referendum campaign, but because schools need money to operate...and when they're forced to beg for money every year, this takes away from the most important task at hand: educating Albert Lea's kids.
If you want the district to do like the United Way and ask for money each year, then they need to hire a top notch director of development...and that person needs to have a staff, too. And we have to tell our teachers each year that they may or may not have a job the following year; it all depends on how much money we can raise in our annual fund raising drive. How many teachers will willingly work in a district that raises money that way? Not very many.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 03 2007,10:30 pm
(krdjis @ Oct. 03 2007,10:13 pm)
QUOTE
we have to tell our teachers each year that they may or may not have a job the following year; it all depends on how much money we can raise in our annual fund raising drive. How many teachers will willingly work in a district that raises money that way? Not very many.
Isn't that what we are already doing?
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 03 2007,11:33 pm
Yup, which is why need to pass this referendum.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 03 2007,11:47 pm
(krdjis @ Oct. 03 2007,10:13 pm)
QUOTE
Actually, Albert Lea's property taxes are fairly low. And are sales taxes aren't outrageous either. That said, if you can show me statistics that show we pay more than other cities, I'll eat my words.
Actually, I might be the wrong person to ask that question to. I researched this comparison in 2004 during the courthouse debatacle. It's not up to date, but shows our trend.
property tax levy in
Faribault County
2001 $4,776,242
2002 $5,053,121
2003 $5,223,315
2004 $5,442,694*
Freeborn County
2001 $7,839,047
2002 $8,643,980
2003 $11,069,216
2004 $12,227,720
Mower County
2001 $7,534,168
2002 $7,643,534
2003 $8,067,736
2004 $9,035,864*
Rice County
2001 $10,773,455
2002 $11,432,421
2003 $12,003,815
2004 $12,712,040*
Steele County
2001 $8,591,670
2002 $9,455,057
2003 $10,825,873
2004 $11,886,808*
Waseca County
2001 $5,859,670
2002 $6,291,963
2003 $6,660,611
2004 $6,993,641*
*proposed
Now the population of the county according to the 2000 census was
Faribault County 16,055
Freeborn County 32,584
Mower County 38,603
Rice County 56,665
Steele County 33,680
Waseca County 19,529
Average household income in 2000
Faribault County 34,440
Freeborn County 36,964
Mower County 36,654
Rice County 48,651
Steele County 46,106
Waseca County 42,440
Now if the average household income remained the same in each county through 2003, the average tax dollars paid per household in 2003 was
Faribault County $785.22
Freeborn County $828.78
Mower County $517.75
Rice County $635.52
Steele County $842.74
Waseca County $943.56
Based on the number of households per county (assuming they also remain the same) in the 2000 census, the % of income paid in property taxes in 2003 is:
Faribault County 2.27%
Freeborn County 2.29%
Mower County 1.43%
Rice County 1.32%
Steele County 1.86%
Waseca County 2.27%
Hmmm
Posted by Wareagle11B on Oct. 04 2007,8:21 am
To Maddog all I can say is....... Krdjis this isn't so much about the District needing this money as it is about throwing money into a ship that is on the verge of springing one too many leaks. Thats just my opinion though.
Dr. Prescott stated after last years referendum failed that all they intended to do was to bring this up for a vote again this year. Where is the planning in that? How can they come back at us this year, with the same tactics as last year btw, and expect us to feel any differently when they put forth no obvious thought into what would be a better and more viable proposal for us. They are once more coming to us with a hand out and they have no apparent plan based off last years failure. "We NEED to pass this referendum for the kids" is getting old. Using the scare tactics with the kids is getting VERY old.
A very glaring fact of the districts thinking, and failure, is that they managed to get the new High School built and that same school has more issues than my old high school does now and it is was new 22 years ago when I graduated!!!! The thinking behind that was much like the line from the movie "Field of Dreams"......."If you build it they will come". Well Albert Lea and District 241 have not stopped the declining enrollment nor people from moving out altogether with that line of thinking.
What do they expect the people of this District to do when they see the list of glaring failures that the District has perpetrated on us in the name of a better quality education for the kids? The new ALHS and all of it's issues, the failure of the past 3 years to pass the AYB/NCLB testing in math and reading, the failure of District management to make better plans to bring a more sound proposal to the voters this year instead of just "We'll just have to bring it up again next year", the continued declining enrollment and 479 classes of which we probably only need 1/2 of them. If they need my money so badly then I suggest they get together,both TEAM and the District Management, and come up with a more viable plan and then make it known to the entire district thru a flier or by the various other forms of media available to them.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 04 2007,9:06 am
MADDOG QUOTE
and when they're forced to beg for money every year, this takes away from the most important task at hand: educating Albert Lea's kids.
Of course a school needs money to run, what doesn't? Whether this is bad marketing on TEAMs part or not. You said it in your quote:QUOTE
the most important task at hand: educating Albert Lea's kids
When teachers /District 241 fail something like NCLB testing, whether people like the idea of No Child Left Behind or not it is still a way to test strengths, weaknesses in education.
Failing Three years in a row and we have heard NO Solution as to how this will be fixed is NOT EDUCATING, in my book.
Rochester at least came up with something, ideas. They got together and tried to come up with ideas that were going to work. This to me, hasn't happened here it just seems to be them trying to come up with a new technique on how TEAM will get a yes vote. This is done without coming up with ideas or working with the public on how to save some money REALISTICALLY [B]without hurting the education that is not up to par as of yet.
Rochester learned from their mistake of building two very nice schools without taking into consideration what the costs would be on something like energy and it was huge. Learning from their mistake they are going to build a "green" school. That might not be realistic for us but what can we incorporate from that idea to save some money.
I personally want the best for my student(s) which I think people keep missing out on here. I am not voting NO to my childs education I'm voting NO on the fact that 241 is not doing their job in educating.
Give me proof/definitives that when my student gets out of highschool he/she won't have to take a remedial READING or MATH test in college because they weren't taught "up to standards" in highschool.
You seem to like statistics, so using your words based on the Annual Yearly Progress report, why is our district STILL failing three years in a row?
QUOTE
At least those statistics give us some idea of where we stand.
Is that your idea of education
They have had the money before and they STILL FAILED. Prove to me a YES vote will ensure our District will be off of that list next year and what the plans are to make it happen. A NO VOTE IS ABOUT THE BEST FOR OUR CHILDREN. DISTRICT 241 NEEDS TO STEP UP TO PLATE AND BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR MISTAKES BEFORE WE CAN GET AHEAD!!
I'm so bored with naive people assuming a no vote means people don't care about their childs education.
The fact of the matter is TEAM is like a group of highschool groupies getting together for their little "let's get together, k?" meetings to sell a very big bag of M&M's just to see if they can top last years sales.
This isn't about finding solutions it's about a bunch of people thinking they are the "popular pack" and because of who they are or what they do they're going to try to get a yes vote whether the educational institute is held responsible or not. It's all about "saving face" after not being able to get any return for all of THEIR sacrifice for 5 years now.
IT IS NOT ABOUT EDUCATION FOR TEAM anymore. They said it in the paper "this is the time of year we really start getting into action and getting excited about it." (not word for word) To me that says we sit on our rears all year and then when it gets to be fall we try and get money for the school. (Tell me that's not like their own little United Way fundraising campaign)
If you ask them to give you answers as to certain accountability questions "it's like, we really need this money like now because like our kids will like suffer if you don't like vote for this, k? , and if you like don't vote "yes" like this year then like next year we will like just keep getting together and like just keep like convincing you to like vote for the children cuz like the school says we like need money and like I think they like do or somethin cuz my friends and I keep meeting like every year, it's like so much fun to like see my friends I like haven't like seen since the last year"
UMMMMM NO!
Posted by katlade on Oct. 04 2007,10:03 am
Here are some really basic reasons that I think the referendum will fail.1. When those pro-referendum voters try to imply that those voting no don't care about the education of our children. Not true - just like those that are against the Iraq war don't support our troops - also not true.
2. Nobody likes strong-arm tactics and blackmail to force their vote.
3. There is obviously a lack of confidence in our school board and Dr. Prescott. That is a bigger problem than we are giving it credit. When the leaders have failed to gain trust and condidence maybe it is time to evaluate what is really going on.
4.We are sick and tired of having fees, taxes etc. forced on us with little results. In other words have we benefitted from the new courthouse and jail, are the lakes any cleaner and is there any kind of accountability for anything from the city, county, watershed etc. Or do they seem to come across as we know what we are doing and mind your own business. Evidently representation takes a different meaning in Freeborn County. Elected officials seem to act like they are the guardians of our money and will do what they think is best instead of actually represent their constituents.
5. Real basic - if people can't afford the increase in property taxes they will vote no. The cost of gas, utitlities, groceries, insurance, health care, etc have risen while our paychecks don't even keep up. Don't be pushing parents to make hard choices and try to imply that they don't care about education. Most of them are just trying to get by.
6. This week there was a annual picnic at one of the grade schools. Guess who was standing at the doors wanting parents to fill our questionares and asking how they will vote. TEAM members. They also wanted names. Since when should a parent attending a yearly event at school have to tell anyone how they will vote and then give their name. Nobody has to tell anyone of these TEAM members how they will vote and nobody has to give them their names. Personally I was appalled that this was even allowed to take place. This was a picnic for students and parents not a rally for the referendum. Personally I thint tactics like this will backfire and piss off more people than actually convince them to vote yes. And where is the money coming from for all this campaigning. Maybe it would better spent in the district funds.
7.Have we received an answer yet to why schedules were changed back to 7 classes instead of 4. We were told that the 4 class a day schedule was less expensive so why change not to mention all the administrative work that would have had to go into the change. Could we afford that?
Just telling us that the district needs money does not cut it. I think there needs to be much more transparency and if they have to explain line item by line item what will be cut and how it will really affect students than that is how it should be. What monies really go into "General Funds" and where does it get applied.
My opinion is Dr. Prescott is a poor manager and should be terminated.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 04 2007,10:29 am
QUOTE
This week there was a annual picnic at one of the grade schools. Guess who was standing at the doors wanting parents to fill our questionares and asking how they will vote. TEAM members. They also wanted names. Since when should a parent attending a yearly event at school have to tell anyone how they will vote and then give their name. Nobody has to tell anyone of these TEAM members how they will vote and nobody has to give them their names.
Thank you for sharing this on the forum. It is very appalling.
I remember when my oldest was in school, I was very young 21 when I had him so young,naive, and not near as mouthy then
I used to dread those school get togethers because there were so many people but I LOVED going because it was so much fun for my son that it didn't matter if I was uncomfortable.While I was reading this I thought of how I would've dealt with that TEAM strong-hold then and now. I was too "young" I guess to probably say no to filling out their papers and I probably would have done it thinking that if they are on school property, at a school event, then I probably should do what they want.
This is the kind of stuff that is JUST NOT RIGHT! Banking on these young parents who are probably thinking the same way I would've. Bad politics!
Today, because I am much more mouthy I would have let them have it full barrel for trying to butt-in to MY time with MY child for THEIR agenda.
Again, thanks for posting more TEAM tactics katlade.
*Please continue to pm me if anyone wants to be a part of the NO FOR NOW vote for our children or to give ideas out on how to get people to vote NO NOVEMBER 6TH on the referendum because we aren't getting the best for our kids and they deserve the best.**
I'm looking at possibly next Tuesday evening but will pm back location and time to anyone who pm's me and shows an interest.
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 04 2007,12:32 pm
One of the biggest reasons district #241 didn't meet AYP for NCLB is because we had an increase in the number of students in a particular demographic (students who do not speak or write fluent English). This increase put us on the list of schools who are carefully watched for AYP. We also had an increase in special education students who had an impact on our numbers for AYP. This does not mean the school is failing. AYP-like accountability is important, but these numbers shouldn't be used to determine whether or not a school is succeeding. We're faced with the challenge of figuring out how to teach kids English and teach them what subject material they need to know to succeed...at the same time.
I'm a little frustrated by the tactic mentioned above: polling parents about how they're going to vote. While I understand that TEAM wants to know how the referendum is viewed by parents, it seems rather pushy to poll parents in that setting. It's what happens when a group of TEAM members get together and, in their meeting, get to thinking that something like that would really help their campaign...not so much.
And here's my harping point that everyone is sick of hearing by now: these people aren't professional marketers; they get an idea in their head and go for it...and regularly they make mistakes.
Even at the professional level marketers make big mistakes. Presidential candidates raise millions of dollars to spend on organized, full-time, professional marketing and they STILL screw up ROYALLY...all the time. TEAM is raising money and organizing, but they are parents, friends, business people, volunteers, retired teachers, teachers, etc.: ordinary folks who want the referendum to pass...not a conspiring group of henchmen who have malevolent, coercive intentions.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 04 2007,12:55 pm
krdjis, getting back to QUOTE
I'll eat my words.
You didn't mention how it tastes.
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 04 2007,1:14 pm
Oh, yes, I forgot to mention. Very tasty. Thank you.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 04 2007,2:00 pm
krdjisQUOTE
This increase put us on the list of schools who are carefully watched for AYP.
This is complete bunk!
QUOTE
We also had an increase in special education students who had an impact on our numbers for AYP. This does not mean the school is failing.
Show me the proof! In fact, print the graph and then narrate it so a regular Joe Blow will understand the numbers.
I posted the results on this and you are wayyyy off the mark. TEAM would like you to believe that ESL and Spec. Ed and red/free lunches are the cause and THAT is why
I posted the results of the AYP report.
The results of the tests are divided up into groups such as these, individual schools, and the district as a whole.
I think part of the reason the state started doing it that way is that school districts have a way of pushing off all of the problems on "certain" groups. The way the report is written now, it makes the schools more accountable and the state wants the school districts to start being more accountable and less accusatory. Lame, lame, lame.
Show me statistics that say District 241 is succeeding in educating our children in Math and Reading, even just the "regular" populace.
Go back through this thread or go to Minnesota's Department of Education site and you will see that THIS too is part of the "spin factor"
You aren't
with your opinions of TEAM, I think you are "spot on" I just can't believe they haven't invested their money into a consulting firm because what they are doing is really bad publicity for anyone who puts their name out there as a TEAM player.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 04 2007,2:11 pm
(krdjis @ Oct. 04 2007,12:32 pm)
QUOTE
One of the biggest reasons district #241 didn't meet AYP for NCLB is because we had an increase in the number of students in a particular demographic (students who do not speak or write fluent English). This increase put us on the list of schools who are carefully watched for AYP. We also had an increase in special education students who had an impact on our numbers for AYP. This does not mean the school is failing.
AYP-like accountability is important, but these numbers shouldn't be used to determine whether or not a school is succeeding. We're faced with the challenge of figuring out how to teach kids English and teach them what subject material they need to know to succeed...at the same time.
I'm a little frustrated by the tactic mentioned above: polling parents about how they're going to vote. While I understand that TEAM wants to know how the referendum is viewed by parents, it seems rather pushy to poll parents in that setting. It's what happens when a group of TEAM members get together and, in their meeting, get to thinking that something like that would really help their campaign...not so much.
And here's my harping point that everyone is sick of hearing by now: these people aren't professional marketers; they get an idea in their head and go for it...and regularly they make mistakes.
Even at the professional level marketers make big mistakes. Presidential candidates raise millions of dollars to spend on organized, full-time, professional marketing and they STILL screw up ROYALLY...all the time. TEAM is raising money and organizing, but they are parents, friends, business people, volunteers, retired teachers, teachers, etc.: ordinary folks who want the referendum to pass...not a conspiring group of henchmen who have malevolent, coercive intentions.
AYP-like accountability is important, but these numbers shouldn't be used to determine whether or not a school is succeeding. We're faced with the challenge of figuring out how to teach kids English and teach them what subject material they need to know to succeed...at the same time.
I'm a little frustrated by the tactic mentioned above: polling parents about how they're going to vote. While I understand that TEAM wants to know how the referendum is viewed by parents, it seems rather pushy to poll parents in that setting. It's what happens when a group of TEAM members get together and, in their meeting, get to thinking that something like that would really help their campaign...not so much.
And here's my harping point that everyone is sick of hearing by now: these people aren't professional marketers; they get an idea in their head and go for it...and regularly they make mistakes.
Even at the professional level marketers make big mistakes. Presidential candidates raise millions of dollars to spend on organized, full-time, professional marketing and they STILL screw up ROYALLY...all the time. TEAM is raising money and organizing, but they are parents, friends, business people, volunteers, retired teachers, teachers, etc.: ordinary folks who want the referendum to pass...not a conspiring group of henchmen who have malevolent, coercive intentions.
These are the tactics that they always take. Someone needs to advise them of how they are coming across. Pushy and judgemental. And who makes the decision to have them present at an annual school function that parents are invited to spend the evening with their children. Whoever made that decision may need to work on his/her decision making skills. I am also sick of all the material I am getting in the mail. But TEAM members keep it up because I think you are sabatoging yourselves.
I would like to know where the monies come from to pay TEAM expenses for the mailings, signs etc. Are they donations? I would assume that this money is not coming out of the district school funding - correct?
I will be the first to donate money to make signs for the No for Now team. Here is a sample fo what they can say.
Accountability first.
A lesson for our children
No for Now
Posted by JeffJimenez on Oct. 04 2007,3:40 pm
I vote YES. Why?(the star spangled banner is now playing in the background) Because as an American, it is my duty to make sure that the children of today, who will be tomorrow's leaders, have the same opportunity that I did. I applaud TEAM for its efforts. Though I am in the minority once again I will be voting YES(end of music).
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 04 2007,4:00 pm
QUOTE
I vote YES. Why?(the star spangled banner is now playing in the background) Because as an American, it is my duty to make sure that the children of today, who will be tomorrow's leaders, have the same opportunity that I did. I applaud TEAM for its efforts. Though I am in the minority once again I will be voting YES(end of music).
Wow! Thanks for the positive note!
Posted by katlade on Oct. 04 2007,4:54 pm
(krdjis @ Oct. 04 2007,4:00 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
I vote YES. Why?(the star spangled banner is now playing in the background) Because as an American, it is my duty to make sure that the children of today, who will be tomorrow's leaders, have the same opportunity that I did. I applaud TEAM for its efforts. Though I am in the minority once again I will be voting YES(end of music).
Wow! Thanks for the positive note!
I assume that you trust the way that the board has handled things so far financially and all decisions that have been made are perfectly acceptable.
Maybe you know why they changed the 4 class period back to 7 class periods when it was stated it would cost more money.
And have you had any dealings with Dr. Prescott?
It is not that the no-voters do not care about the kids. Many of us feel that the powers that be are not accountable and they use referendums with to great of ease instead of making hard decisions to cut costs.
And TEAM members can campaign all they want but do not try to shame parents into voting yes. Parents have other costs and priorities to consider. They also need to do it on their own time, not park in front of every school function there is because if that is the case I am sure their are several people that will be sitting right next to them that will gladly explain why they are voting no. And they might have a few stories about Dr. Prescott and board members that might sway people into thinking the childrens's education is not their only agenda. Have an open mind but do your own research and make up your own mind adn always look below the surface.
Posted by Spidey on Oct. 04 2007,5:17 pm
Wow, haven't been here for a while and had some catching up to do!While reading this thread I felt like every other post was a duplicate of the post prior to it. I don't think people are getting it.
Voting YES does not mean:
- You love your kids more
- Children will get a better education
- The teachers will become smarter
- You are more American
- You will not be asked for more money next year
Voting NO does not mean:
- You dislike your children
- You don't care about their education
- You hate all teachers
- You are more American
- You will not be asked for more money next year
Beating a dead horse really does fit this back and forth conversation! Why don't we post things that we do agree on, and then what we don't agree on. You know, the "givens".
We all agree we love our children, so I think the comments referring to the fact that either vote means either stance doesn't like their children or cares about their education should stop. That's just a cheap shot when you don't have anything else to say.
We all agree we are all Americans, (unless of course you are an illegal; then I believe there is a thread going for you already), so no need to sing the American anthem and preach about how this makes you better because of your vote.
I agree with Bianca about getting together to discuss this and try to come up with alternatives. I haven't had a chance to read what the TEAM is suggesting fully, but I believe it's all about more money. I would like to know their reasons.
Sorry, I just haven't had time to keep up with what's going on in the world around me, but I'm trying. Has anyone actually seen their "books" and what went wrong? I understand there were cuts, but their tactics are horrible.
MHO - for now ... it may change after doing research
Posted by bianca on Oct. 04 2007,5:24 pm
QUOTE
I vote YES.
But the bad thing is that you can't be unbiased, your wife works at the ALHS as a secretary, she works right there next to the administrators all day so this referendum could be a source of bread and butter, besides the fact of knowing them personally.
You know I like you jeff, and I know you want the best for your kids but the best is just not happening right now. Halverson is one of the schools also that are not making the grade. Tell me what our kids will be missing that we had the opportunity of if the referendum doesn't pass?
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 04 2007,5:52 pm
I'm new to this town and, honestly, I'm having a really hard time keeping up with all the bad feelings folks have about the past and why they have them. There is a strong anti-establishment feeling here, which is kinda nice because it reminds me that I don't live in the suburbs, but on the other hand a lot of anti-establishment stuff is about Albert Lea's past...that I don't have a clue about so I spend a lot of time being baffled by it.What will it take, I wonder, before this gap is bridged? ...between those who consider themselves establishment and those who consider themselves against the establishment. A few people on each side thinks the other is the bad guy and that they deserve to be punished, but they don't represent everyone.
Let it be known that I do not think you are a bad person if you vote "no" for the referendum. And, of course, I think you care about Albert Lea's kids whether you vote "no" or "yes." I simply think the district needs more money. Maybe it was dumb to build the new school. Maybe the district's marketing efforts are lousy. Maybe...a lot of things. But the school district is not an evil, greedy, corporation. They are a school district. And they educate our children.
Can I absolutely guarantee that every child will suddenly have a better education, go to college and get a fantastic job because the referendum has passed? No way. No one can guarantee that. Passing the referendum is one of many steps we need to take to make our school system better. This is not the end-all solution. It is one piece of the puzzle.
If you don't trust the school board, then vote in a school board that you do trust. And then let them make the decisions they've been elected to make. Be active in all the parts of the process. Don't just wait until folks are elected that you don't trust and then rally against them when they ask for a referendum.
Believe it or not, most folks in Albert Lea are good people, "yes" voters and "no" voters alike. The "yes" voters are not angry oppressors in a brutal regime seeking only more money and power. And the "no" voters are not people who don't care about the future of this town; they are not people who don't care about our children. We all want what is best for Albert Lea.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 04 2007,6:17 pm
Very fair post^QUOTE
but on the other hand a lot of anti-establishment stuff is about Albert Lea's past...that I don't have a clue about so I spend a lot of time being baffled by it.
I've lived here all of my life minus eight years in a couple states and I too am still baffled.
This is what is so hard when you try to get a group together because people cannot stick to the ok that happened then but NOW we have to figure out what happens from today? And some people are put off by that because they want to STILL rant about this and that but it gets a group nowhere.
When people get together for change they really do need to focus on the "Ok, that may have happened then but what can we do now"? That's the only way there can be change.
But unfortunately, as we all know, change can be difficult for so many people, we get in a habit of doing /saying things a certain way and change is hard even when people think they really truly want change, it's very hard to break habits.
QUOTE
Passing the referendum is one of many steps we need to take to make our school system better.
Not so, if there is nothing that changes. Minds have to be changed. People have to change. The District has to be willing to make changes in order for people to accept it.
I think the "opposers" have made some suggestions. jimhanson had a great idea with the citizens give one million dollars and the district cuts one million dollars but the district is not flexible it is all or nothing. That needs to change.
Isn't it supposed to be something like together we achieve more, where is the "together" if we can't meet half-way
Posted by JeffJimenez on Oct. 04 2007,8:36 pm
My wife working at ALHS has nothing to do with how I feel or how I vote. I am a big boy and can make up my own mind. The pants in my family are 34 x 33. Like I have posted in the past, if you vote NO, I am okay with that. I just choose to vote YES. BTW, my last post was suppose to be kinda funny.
Posted by Spidey on Oct. 04 2007,9:18 pm
QUOTE
BTW, my last post was suppose to be kinda funny.
So was mine
Posted by busybee on Oct. 05 2007,1:18 am
QUOTE
The real difference here is this, you say you don't think the district needs money and I say it does. I'm voting "yes" for the referendum, not because I've been knocked dead with a fantastic referendum campaign, but because schools need money to operate...and when they're forced to beg for money every year, this takes away from the most important task at hand: educating Albert Lea's kids.
The district will always need more money than they have...for me it's about HOW they spend the money they do have and how they will spend the money they want. It's about priorities. I would be more than willing to vote YES if the district was WILLING to look at those priorities instead of keeping things the same. Nothing changes or gets better for the students or the community because the district does NOTHING to re-group or re-focus priorities based upon NEEDS, not WANTS.
Tell me that you see in the referendum where District 241 is willing to make IMPROVEMENTS in "the most important task at hand: educating Albert Lea's kids."
Tell me they appear willing to cut/reduce/change one thing that does not directly affect academics so if they get this referendum passed something positive can be worked towards rather than just keeping things the same. If anyone can find that, let me know. QUOTE
And we have to tell our teachers each year that they may or may not have a job the following year; it all depends on how much money we can raise in our annual fund raising drive. How many teachers will willingly work in a district that raises money that way?
Teaching jobs are dependant upon enrollment...declining enrollment equates to less jobs and that's happens on a year to year basis. Passing a referendum to keep things the same does not guarantee teaching jobs. Passing a referendum that would impliment a program to increase student academic performance in areas of NEED would CREATE more teaching jobs and yeild a greater opportunity for those near to being let go, to stay.
I think it's unrealistic for anyone to think that passing this referendum helps the students, the community growth, etc... Has what we've been focusing local funding on done that to date? No. Offering a referendum that has at least one or two goals towards improvement would have a better chance at accomplishing this...might even increase enrollment, might bring students that have left back, etc...
Posted by busybee on Oct. 05 2007,1:31 am
QUOTE
Failing Three years in a row and we have heard NO Solution as to how this will be fixed is NOT EDUCATING, in my book.
Right on! Especially considering that there was NO increase in performance requirements for the last two years of NCLB testing! So, they actually had two years to accomplish the same thing. Kind of negates the whole...it's the special ed kids, english language learner kids, free & reduced lunch kids fault! I highly doubt it changed that significantly in two years for those groups. Of course, simply passing the referendum is going to fix that, we must have "faith" in them, even though the district hasn't even acknowledged the issue in the referendum.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 05 2007,1:43 am
QUOTE
7.Have we received an answer yet to why schedules were changed back to 7 classes instead of 4. We were told that the 4 class a day schedule was less expensive so why change not to mention all the administrative work that would have had to go into the change. Could we afford that?
Actually, the district didn't need to go back to a 7 period day, however a 7 period day is less expensive than block scheduling. That's why some teachers were cut when they did this. I was never for the block scheduling the way it was set up at A.L. High School. They should have set it up differently like many other districts did when they realized the problems with it. My concern was students going an entire school year between courses, especially in Math because students lose too much information during the time span they with out it.
In reality, eventually we might see a very slight increase in NCLB math proficiency with a 7 period day because students will be using math skills during the entire school year rather than being tested when they haven't had a math course for a 3 months to a year.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 05 2007,2:15 am
QUOTE
We also had an increase in special education students who had an impact on our numbers for AYP. This does not mean the school is failing.
Increase in special ed students? Are you blaming the special ed students for not performing and causing the district to fail AYP? Seriously do you think the district has the right to play the victim here? NO WAY! Our district could be choosing to improve academic performance by asking for referendum money to be allocated for that if it's such a problem. But no, our district will have to be forced into looking and dealing with the REAL issues and focusing on priorities they won't acknowlede other than to blame the kids.
For example, I heard today that things are in process to change the law that governs Title I (possibly special ed too) to begin accomodating students that are not making the grade in middle school and high school. Could be as soon as next school year. I will know more information next week when I talk to the person again who told me (very credible source...actually helps with testing procedures/questions and formulating results for NCLB). I'll check into the funding part of it too.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 05 2007,2:23 am
HELP! How do I get a pdf file on here?
Got something I want to post from the MN Dept. of Ed.
Is it because I own a Mac?
Please don't hold that against me!
Posted by Wareagle11B on Oct. 05 2007,8:39 am
(busybee @ Oct. 05 2007,2:23 am)
QUOTE
Is it because I own a Mac? Please don't hold that against me!
Please don't hold that against me! U actually OWN a MAC and admit to it in public!!!!!!!!
Just kidding of course.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 05 2007,9:46 am
ALBERT LEA PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT ALBERT LEA SENIOR HIGH
Selected Analysis Options
School Year: 06-07 Test Name: MCA-II Score Type: Proficiency Subject: Mathematics
first column= *not proficient
second column=proficient
third column=number tested
AL SENIOR HIGH 76.73 % 23.27 % 275
AL DISTRICT 241 47.55 %52.45 % 1651
STATE (MN) 39.37 % 60.63 %396521
< http://education.state.mn.us/tranaly....%20HIGH >
www.education.state.mn.us
Excellent site to get your questions answered in an unbiased way. It's a great resource to find out your school/school districts report card
Posted by katlade on Oct. 05 2007,10:14 am
I question the cuts that they are suggesting. Have you ever worked somewhere that needed to cut back? They always start at the bottom of the scale pay (which does not make sense to me). It always appeared to me that when they started with those folks it made a difference in the day to day running of the business. I always noticed that the higher the pay scale the less those folks do. And they don't pick up the slack when lay-offs occur. In fact if you were to honestly ask what high management does it is usually make decisions, appear before the board to present financial statements (that most of them don't understand) approve requisitions, and sign paychecks.About 10 yrs ago when houses were selling, people were buying new cars, gas prices were down, they were paying over $7.00 an hour to work at Buger King things were good. People were more inclined to vote for referendums.
I think everyone is aware of the housing market, increase in gas prices, health care costs, and the lack of good paying jobs that we are struggling with right now.
Unless you are one of those lucky folks that have not been affected by the downward spiral, you know that you have to cut back. At first it is hard but as time goes by you realize that you do not need to spend money on what you were before. You prioritize your purchases. You don't buy all those luxury items you did before. You cut coupons. Maybe you don't go as far on a vacation. You trade in your gas guzzler for a smaller fuel-efficient car. You don't go out to eat as much. All these cut-backs do not negatively affect your childrens life do they.
All we are asking is that the school district do the same thing. I am questioning where they are making cuts and why. I think that they can make cuts just like families do - maybe the kids don't get all the bells and whistles but they can still get a fundamentally good education.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 05 2007,12:25 pm
My own quote a couple of days ago. QUOTE
They have many marketing tools at their disposal and many major players backing them. Marketeers like the Tribune, the Chamber and obviously the city and county will only speak in a positive manner.
And here's the Chamber's backing. < Chamber backs levy referendum >
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 05 2007,3:07 pm
Here’s a line of inquiry1. Specifically, what would the finds be used for – to maintain programs currently in place, provide new or expanded programs/services or something else?
2. How many other operating and/or capital levies are now in force for the district, and what is their amount/duration?
3. What is the length of this proposed levy?
4. Will other school district levies be reduced to partially offset this proposed levy?
5. What proportion of the districts’ total operating budget will the levy equal?
6. What is the district’s current and projected fund balance? How will that fund balance be affected if the levy passes? If it fails?
7. To accomplish the goal of the referendum, how many district personnel will be retained or need to be hired? If new staff needs to be hired, how will funding for these positions be maintained after the referendum expires?
8. Is enrollment in the district increasing or decreasing? If decreasing, will any part of the levy be used to offset revenue lost because of declining enrollment?
9. Should the levy question pass, what would be the impact on a home valued at $150,000? $250,000? $300,000? $350,000?
10. Are other local units of government proposing tax levy increases this year?
11. If you add in all of the proposals from the other units of government, what is the expected total tax increase on a home or business owner?
12. Has the district done anything to coordinate its levy proposal with the other local government units?
13. Does the district have any plans for operational changes that will improve efficiency (for example, collaborative purchasing at a regional level or contracting for non-instructional services)?
14. Are there any legislative changes the district wants or needs to allow it to improve efficiency?
15. If the district is experiencing declining enrollment, what are the long-term plans to address the decrease in state funding (since schools are funded on a per-pupil basis)?
16. How will success be measured at the end of the levy? Will it be linked to increased student achievement?
17. What does the district plan to do if the levy fails?
< Voting on a school levy? >
Posted by january on Oct. 05 2007,5:34 pm
Bianca:I am sorry but having a terrible time with PM. I have to leave the message here. I did receive your PM. See you then.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 06 2007,7:33 am
I've tried a zillion different ways to get the file I want on here...must be operator issues! I can't even get it to copy & paste. What I found was a March 2007 NCLB Minnesota Working Group Recommendations for the Reauthorization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act report. It's a really good read, however 15 pages and although I wish I could take the time to type all of it, I'm not that crazy! If anyone finds it by doing a search and can get it on here...go for it! The MN Dept. of Ed has a letter in the beginning of the report addressed to the public, stakeholders, congress and Minnesota legislature.
Here's an interesting observation by the MN Dept of Ed letter dated March 2007:
Despite the law being changed several times since 1965 (ESEA=NCLB), the nation's student achievement rates remain largely unchanged. There is a DROP in student achievement from elementary school to high school.
Here is their goal in reauthorizing ESEA (NCLB):
The reauthorization of the ESEA must focus on refining current law and providing the capacity necessary for states and local school districts and schools to reach these important requirements and goals.
This report was put together in cooperation with stakeholders, which included business, education organizations, school district staff and the MN dept of Ed. The report outlines the changes needed for states and local districts and schools to improve academic achievement, which will allow the United States and Minnesota to compete in a global economy.
In the report, page 3 it states:
The reauthorization of ESEA comes at a critical time of great economic change for the U.S. and the world in an increasingly global economy....
According to the MN Dept. of Employment & Economic Development, Minnesota is expected to see job growth of 20-33% over the next ten years in math, science and technology fields. Yet, if current trends remain, MN will be short 10,800 college graduates each year and faces statewide declining student enrollment.
It is imperative that MN increase rigor and expectations and change strategies as it relates to increasing student achievement and closing the achievement gap. The future strength of our state and its economy will depend on it.
Recommendations:
1. Changes to ESEA should focus on building capacity at the state and local levels and extend the timeline for 100 percent proficiency.
Change from 2014 to 2017.
2. Changes to ESEA should allow greater enforcement by the U.S. Dept. of Ed to ensure that states have rigorous academic standards in place. Some states have lowered academic standards in order to show more schools making AYP and thus avoiding sanctions and consequences. The group supports high and rigorous academic standards for students and does not support lowering academic standards.
3. Changes to ESEA should allow greater flexibility for school choice options and greater accountability for supplemental services. This includes allowing states with strong school choice laws, such as MN, to waive the school choice option. Furthermore, states should be evaluating supplemental educational services (SES) providers to ensure SES providers are implementing sound educational practices in MN schools.
4. Changes to ESEA should allow states to create a system for schools not making AYP that allows for rigorous and stable school improvement plans and also allows for differentiated consequences for schools not making AYP.
This basically says that instead of Title I schools having to make improvements in a district, all schools must be accountable beginning on the 2nd year they do not make AYP.
5. MDE should continue building a strong statewide assessment system that includes a student growth model component. Congress should allow flexibility in building a strong student growth model that is rigorous and aligned to state academic standards and graduation requirements.
6. MDE should enhance its current State School Report Card by replacing the current formula for the star rating system with a student growth model and explore the feasibility of including a "learning environment index."
7. Changes to NCLB should properly include students with disabilities and English Language Learners.
Accomodations to testing be done as part of the Individual Education Plan process.
Law should change to allow states to properly include new immigrant ELL students in the accountability system based on multiple measures no fewer than three years where it is appropriate. Should not double or triple test ELL students.
8. Changes to NCLB should provide greater flexibility for the highly qualified teacher provisions and should enhance teacher quality.
9. Changes to ESEA should continue to focus on early literacy through Reading First, and provide funding for targeted services for pre-school literacy readiness. In addition, there should be greater emphasis and focus on math and science that will increase student achievement in these areas and on better training for all teachers, including elementary teachers, in order to guarantee the delivery of effective instruction in math and science education.
****My personal favorite is next****
10. Changes to ESEA should include a greater focus and emphasis on our nation's middle and high schools, but not at the expense of elementary schools.
American high schools are in need of improvement and reform. Our high schools were designed at a time when the majority of graduates did not go on to college. By comparison, the majority of students who graduate today pursue some type of post secondary education.
There is a drop in student achievement from elementary to high school. On the 2005 NAEP assessment, 36% of fourth-grade students scored at or above proficient in math. By twelfth grade, only 23% of students scored at or above proficient.
11. Changes to ESEA should include strengthening resources at the state and local levels that will allow for rigorous implementation, capacity building and increased student achievement.
Asking Congress to fund at the 2001 level (what was promised). Current funding is not enough to impliment ESEA (NCLB) effectively and develop capacity at the state and local levels.
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 06 2007,9:58 am
There are a lot of great questions being asked on this forum. Is anyone calling or emailing Dr. Prescott or any of the members of the board to get answers? If you did, what were the questions you asked and what were the answers you received? This is a snapshot from a pdf on the district's website. The pdf can be found if you follow "< Referendum 2007 >" link.
This info is on the pdf as well...
For more information about the referendum, attend the District 241 School Board meetings at 7p.m. Monday, Oct. 15, or Monday Nov. 5, in the board room at Brookside Education Center, 211 W. Richway Drive, Albert Lea.
Ask all these great questions and then and decide vote "yes" or "no" on the referendum after those questions have been answered. In my mind, this is the best way to make an informed, intelligent decision.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 06 2007,7:15 pm
In the article from the Tribune, here they go again, no difinitives once again just "coulds" or threats as I see it. Just an excerpt:[QUOTE]Voters go to the polls Nov. 6 to decide whether Albert Lea students should get additional funds for the general operating budget. If the referendum does not pass, the district will have to cut $2 million.****Those cuts have not been determined,(WHY NOT? You would think by now they would have had time to come up with a PLAN for whether the levy passes or not) but they could include closing an elementary school building, making more reductions to class options, enlarging class sizes and cutting the budgets for athletics and extracurricular activities.****
IMO, their aganda would go a lot smoother if they would just say what is going to definitely be cut, rather than this.
It's a funny thing with the word could: Could could mean :we could do this but most likely it won't even if the levy passes
or
could it also not mean that if this referendum does pass some of these could still have to be cut to some extent
That's my problem with coulds.They came up with a number of two million dollars. What is their plan difinitively for what IS or ISn't going to be cut IF it doesn't pass?
Are we going to see Prescott on KAAL again saying yet again that they'll just ask again? Or maybe this time it may behoove him to say, We would like to find out what the public has to say on what things the district should consider to be cut and what should not.
This is a little sidenote but Dr. Prescott, according to the Mn. Dept of Education, makes $20,000.00 more a year in salary than the average salary for superintendents for the state of Minnesota. I felt that was quite high considering the size of our city and school populus. Granted $20,000.00 isn't much in the grand scheme of $2 million but if they threaten to cut salaries, is his one of them
Posted by busybee on Oct. 06 2007,8:25 pm
They are going to be forced into the "could we cut" eventually, but they're going to do it kicking and screaming all the way because they refuse to look at what "should be cut." If they actually took the goals of NCLB seriously, they'd be willing to compromise and focus, but they're not and that's why we having failings in AYP. That's why we don't have students graduating with adequate skills in reading, math, science & communication.
Although NCLB is not perfect, it sure has a sense of reality in what type of goals we should be setting in U.S. public schools. What I see is the majority of districts (ours included) dig in their heals and refuse to embrace NCLB because it is not fully funded by the Federal government. Different choices could be made in regards to budgeting for NCLB goals, but districts would rather keep the philosophy they have had for all these years and wait for adequate Federal funds or be forced into it without adequate funds before they'll acknowledge the goals and consider a different way to do things.
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 06 2007,8:42 pm
QUOTE
They came up with a number of two million dollars. What is their plan difinitively for what IS or ISn't going to be cut IF it doesn't pass?
Again, if you have specific questions, ask the people who know: Dr. Prescott himself or members of the board. It is much better to ask questions and get answers than to post questions here and then be frustrated that there are no answers to your questions. You're asking important, specific questions that should be answered. Don't rely on the Tribune, don't rely on someone else to find out for you. Ask the people who know. And then post the answers here. If you do, you will help us all become better informed citizens. If you don't, we'll all continue spinning half-truths and passing them off as facts. No one knows what is going on until they at least attempt to ask the folks who are making these decisions.They've posted their contact information for a reason. Go to the district website, find their emails and phone numbers and get your questions answered. Have a genuine conversation with them. That is what they are there for. They are real people who care about Albert Lea just as much as you do.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 06 2007,10:17 pm
I'm not disputing your philosophy that people need to check out the facts. That is the best way to be informed correctly. I am curious though, why Bianca would have to be in a position to check out the facts with an issue such as this in the first place? She's not the one asking the community to fund 2 million to the local school district. If I were to decide who has more accountability in informing the public, it would be the district, not bianca.
Posted by hsbc on Oct. 06 2007,11:01 pm
(bianca @ Aug. 21 2007,10:26 am)
QUOTE
We did this "unofficial" poll last year and it was an overwhelming no and that was with all the TEAM propaganda and the teachers telling their students in elementary school that they needed to "get" their parents to vote yes on the referendum.
Unless there's some governmental money tree that is going to blow in from Hurricane Dean, I don't see it happening again. Especially after Prescott went on tv last year and when asked what they were going to do after it was denied, he just said "we'll just try again next year."
Once again it's not that we don't want the best for our kids, that's just a way to make parents feel guilty about not saying yes. But they at least have to come up with something other than: "we'll try again next year." They can't keep waiting for handouts when the property taxes are so high now and people are still very bitter about "needing" that new highschool and "needing" that new courthouse to bring people in to boost our economy.
Most people in this town,esp. the many retired people cannot afford another hike in property taxes with no relief in sight from it for years. I was just in Wal-Mart yesterday and this little old lady came up to me and said," they have just rose their prices again, I just came here last week and this is 30 cents higher than it was then." They just can't do it, with all of their prescriptions and many of the babyboomers didn't even think about 401k so they're hurting in this town.
So when district 241 says "say yes and do it for the kids."
I say, "say no and do it for the elders in this town that have to choose between groceries or medicines already."
last year and it was an overwhelming no and that was with all the TEAM propaganda and the teachers telling their students in elementary school that they needed to "get" their parents to vote yes on the referendum.Unless there's some governmental money tree that is going to blow in from Hurricane Dean, I don't see it happening again. Especially after Prescott went on tv last year and when asked what they were going to do after it was denied, he just said "we'll just try again next year."
Once again it's not that we don't want the best for our kids, that's just a way to make parents feel guilty about not saying yes. But they at least have to come up with something other than: "we'll try again next year." They can't keep waiting for handouts when the property taxes are so high now and people are still very bitter about "needing" that new highschool and "needing" that new courthouse to bring people in to boost our economy.
Most people in this town,esp. the many retired people cannot afford another hike in property taxes with no relief in sight from it for years. I was just in Wal-Mart yesterday and this little old lady came up to me and said," they have just rose their prices again, I just came here last week and this is 30 cents higher than it was then." They just can't do it, with all of their prescriptions and many of the babyboomers didn't even think about 401k so they're hurting in this town.
So when district 241 says "say yes and do it for the kids."
I say, "say no and do it for the elders in this town that have to choose between groceries or medicines already."
I'm confused? What does Walmart have to do with the school referendum?
Posted by hsbc on Oct. 06 2007,11:47 pm
Ok let me try this again. There are truly people, elderly and young having a tough time making ends meet. Through fault of the government? city? personal choices? who knows? maybe none of all of the above. Walmart is always cutting prices but in order to cut prices in one area they have to raise prices in another. That's pure marketing strategies. But how is voting no on the referendum going to help that lady and others to make ends meet? Is punishing the school going to help health care costs? Put the fault were it belongs. The drug companies, the health insurance companies, the uninsured, the problems that are driving up the costs what ever they may be. That is not a good reason to vote no. Maybe you should ask Walmart why they have to raise their prices? Could be shoplifters? damaged goods? spoilage? Blame the school yeah that's got to be it. We all to some extent have waste in our lives and can find places to cut expenses. You know when I clean my frigerator out I through enough spoiled food to cover the cost of what this referendum will cost me. There is not one household in this town that is not guilty of wasting something be it food, running the water too long, flushing the toilet to frequently, leaving a light on, running the furnace or air to high, not recyling their recycables. If they can say 100% that they waste nothing than they can vote no but don't be voting no to the school for the reason that they think the school can make cuts so that they don't need this referendum. As anybody bothered to find out how long an operating referendum has been in effect for the school district? And when did it change so that it had to be voted on by the public? Let by gones be by gones...quite holding the present and future by what was done in the past. Again there is not one person in this town that can't say they at some point in their life did not make a bad decision! Are they suppose to pay for it for the rest of their lives? Let it go! It's in the past. Lets move forward and strive to be better, make better decisions, informed decisions. People say they can't afford higher taxes, I say can they afford not to? This referendum isn't just about the kids, it's about the community, it's about the people that live in this community, we have an obligation to support this community at whatever cost. and whoever put that emoticon of a man beating the dog please remove it, it's very offending!For those of you who seems to have the anwers on how the school can cut back I invite you to go to the school near you and observe a classroom. Ask the teachers how many of them use their own money to buy supplies for their kids. You blame the teachers and school for test scores but go and poll the kids and ask them how many could care less and do bad on purpose? See how many don't want to learn. You know the old saying, you can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink it? Well it applies to kids, you can teach, but you can't make them learn. It isn't always the schools fault for bad tests scores. Cut back in administration you say? Follow an administrator around for a week or even a day I guarentee you will change your opinion on that. Unless you dig and get first hand information don't vote no because you will be voting for the wrong reason. Sure there are some things I don't agree with that the schools are doing but that doesn't make it wrong. Negativity feeds negativity. I challange the Tribune to run articles on the positve aspects of the school. Interview the principles...put the public in their shoes. Do any of you know how many tours are given in our schools for new families looking to move to albert lea? This is getting to lengthy but I just wanted to let the elderly out there that rely on meals on wheels, ride share and all of other agencies out there that rely on donations from the United Way. I can't support you any more because you in turn won't support the school. The school, yes the school that you are not supporting raises money every year by employee payroll deductions, fund raising activites like silent auction, tricycle races, etc. to raise funds for the United way. How do you think this effect that lady who needs a ride to walmart to pay for that item that increased .30 cents from last week. Again I say can we afford to not support the school district. Right or wrong, whether we believe they are making the best choices, the highest scores, or an overpaid administrator. You cannot make the whole school system suffer for the few rotten choices that were made. The new high school is built, it's not going away. Get over it!
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 07 2007,5:33 pm
I was just re-reading the "241 Update" Fall edition again. Of course, there was a 1/3 page ad, with the headline "Local Funding to help provide th resources needed for a quality education in the Albert Lea Schools." It spoke of all the good that passing the referendum will do. It states that QUOTE
"the school board and Superintendent greatly appreciate the work of the community committee, TEAM. The members of TEAM help provide accurate information about the referendum and they can promote a positive vote, which the Board and Superintendent cannot do in most situations. If you want to be a part of TEAM, please call ....."
"Referendum information from the school district will be sent out to community members within the next few weeks....."
"Referendum information from the school district will be sent out to community members within the next few weeks....."
How galling--the fact that PRO-referendum material is provided to TEAM--that they use the school system to urge the kids to get their parents to vote FOR the referendum--that they send this information out in the "241 Update" at taxpayers expense.
Do you suppose that since they are supposed to be neutral, they would include a proposal AGAINST the referendum in the 241 Update? Put that information on their website? Provide contact information for "VOTE-NO"?
This is especially vexing, when you read the disclaimer at the bottom of the article:
QUOTE
Prepared and paid for by Independent School District #241 (Albert Lea area schools) 211 West Richway Drive, Albert Lea, MN. This publication is not circulated on behalf of any candidate or ballot question.[/
Taxpayers have to PAY to send this pro-referendum message out--with no equal time or contact information for opposing views. This is akin to the Chinese custom of billing the family of the victim for the bullet used to execute someone convicted in their sham of a court system.
This is about as "impartial" as Judge Roy Bean's Kangaroo Court!
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 07 2007,5:54 pm
Here's a copy of the #241 article
Posted by bianca on Oct. 07 2007,8:52 pm
QUOTE
This is akin to the Chinese custom of billing the family of the victim for the bullet used to execute someone convicted in their sham of a court system.
This is about as "impartial" as Judge Roy Bean's Kangaroo Court!
This is about as "impartial" as Judge Roy Bean's Kangaroo Court!
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 08 2007,8:52 am
With this being a special election, absentee balloting is going to be essential to get out especially the senior residents votes.remember this is a special election.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 08 2007,9:33 am
hsbc, I tend to agree with you that some of the motivations people have for voting no don't make much sense to me. However, if that is their focus, they have every right to voice their opinion and vote accordingly. I don't typically agree with your reasons for voting yes, either.
QUOTE
There is not one household in this town that is not guilty of wasting something be it food, running the water too long, flushing the toilet to frequently, leaving a light on, running the furnace or air to high, not recyling their recycables. If they can say 100% that they waste nothing than they can vote no but don't be voting no to the school for the reason that they think the school can make cuts so that they don't need this referendum.
I'm not quite getting your point here. Are you saying people don't have the right to vote no because they might have wasteful behaviors in their households, therefore they can't expect the school district to look at priorities to see if they have any wasteful behaviors? Or, are you saying that because people might have wasteful behaviors, if they stopped being wasteful, then they would have the money to vote yes for the referendum?
Honestly, do you think it's beneficial to students if people were to vote yes simply because they are expected to feel guilty for occassionally being wasteful?
QUOTE
Let by gones be by gones...quite holding the present and future by what was done in the past.
And the school district needs the same advice because they don't do things any differently today as they have in the past.
QUOTE
People say they can't afford higher taxes, I say can they afford not to? This referendum isn't just about the kids, it's about the community, it's about the people that live in this community, we have an obligation to support this community at whatever cost.
I completely disagree! We can NOT afford to pass another referendum that is NOT FOCUSED on IMPROVEMENTS in STUDENT academic education. Do you see passing this referendum as an improvement in math, reading, communication or science achievement goals for the students our district serve? Why would you insist that a yes vote is still the best, when year after year not a darn thing has changed as far as how well our students perform in these areas? Keeping things the same hasn't been working and the federal/state funding hasn't been sufficient in meeting the academic goals they requiring districts to be accountable for, so WHY isn't the district focusing on that? Why do they think using funds to keep things the same is good enough for our kids???
I am somewhat tired of the idea that passing this referendum is supportive to the community. I will not adhere to minimizing the need for a referendum that could focus on improvements in ACADEMICS for STUDENTS just because someone says passing a referendun that doesn't will benefit the community. The priority is the STUDENTS and their education and nothing more than that.
QUOTE
and whoever put that emoticon of a man beating the dog please remove it, it's very offending!
Ever heard the saying, "Beating a dead horse?" That's a horse, not a dog.
QUOTE
Ask the teachers how many of them use their own money to buy supplies for their kids.
I know I appreciate that they're willing to purchase the extras in order to make lesson's more enjoyable or to do something nice for another.
QUOTE
You blame the teachers and school for test scores but go and poll the kids and ask them how many could care less and do bad on purpose? See how many don't want to learn. You know the old saying, you can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink it? Well it applies to kids, you can teach, but you can't make them learn. It isn't always the schools fault for bad tests scores.
Oh jeesh, here we go again. Let's pass the referendum because our schools are full of kids who don't want to learn. Do you seriously think that the educated adults in our schools are helpless because they are being victimized by children who don't want to learn? If that were the case than the percentages of students who don't attain proficiency in math, reading, science, etc... would be the same across the board. But, that's not how it is. For example, 60-80% of students will probably be proficient in reading at any given time and 20-40% of students will probably be proficient in math at any given time. I highly doubt 60-80% of students in math classes are purposely choosing not to learn!
QUOTE
Unless you dig and get first hand information don't vote no because you will be voting for the wrong reason.
Do experiences as a teacher qualify as digging in and getting first hand information?
QUOTE
Sure there are some things I don't agree with that the schools are doing but that doesn't make it wrong.
So, you would rather pass a referendum and continue to allow a few people to make all the choices because even if you disagree with some of what they are doing, they are still right???
QUOTE
Again I say can we afford to not support the school district. Right or wrong, whether we believe they are making the best choices
IMHO, we can no longer afford to continue down the same path. The need to start prioritizing academics is not an option any longer. It's because we have continued to offer support without question that improvements in academics are not occuring.
Posted by Common Citizen on Oct. 08 2007,9:36 am
(busybee @ Oct. 08 2007,9:33 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
and whoever put that emoticon of a man beating the dog please remove it, it's very offending!
Ever heard the saying, "Beating a dead horse?" That's a horse, not a dog.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 08 2007,10:19 am
Busybee--you nailed the essence of voter dissatisfaction--every year, we are asked to approve MORE money for the amorphous purpose of "Improving the schools", "keeping schools strong", "making the community attractive to others", or my favorite "It's for the kids".In each of these platitudes, THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY. How do we KNOW if the schools are "strong", or "attractive to others", or "improving"? We don't know whether the money spent has been effective--by many measures, it has not.
Just once, I would like to see school supporters, administration, or TEAM say "If you give us this money, THIS is where it will go, and THIS will be the results." It has never happened yet.
A friend of mine recently retired as an engineer for General Mills--but his real job for the company was as a troubleshooter. He would go into a plant that was underperforming--sit down with management and the union--ask what the problem was. Inevitably, they would blame poor performance on lack of money. He would then tell the plant management and union--"I have the ear of top management. If you tell me that you can turn this around for this much money, I'll push it for you. But if you DON'T turn it around, I'm the guy that will shut down this plant. Now, let's see how much you can cut, and how much you REALLY need." Almost without exception, the management and union found common ground without having to bring in additional funds. If additional funds WERE brought in, all concerned knew that the survival of the plant depended on them achieving the goals they had agreed to.
That's what we need here. Rather than vague promises, tell us EXACTLY what you will do with the money, tell us the results you will achieve. Don't over state your ambitions--your job is on the line if you don't make your goals. That's the way business works, and why government usually doesn't.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 08 2007,12:14 pm
I think those are good points made. Another thing TEAM, the Chamber, and etc. keeps clinging to is that "people look at the schools before they choose to move here" I really don't think or hope they are just looking cosmetically because if that is the case, we should "draw" people/students in, it's a beautiful school. I won't argue /debate that point. But don't you think that if people are going to take the time to look at the school to decide whether or not they will move their family here, they are going to look at the "academics" part of the institution? I mean, the reason NCLB came into play was due in part to make schools accountable and make sure students got a good education. Whether you agree with NCLB testing or not, it's still SOMETHING to go by. A testing procedure was put forth to "test" the schools and make them "accountable" thus the Annual Yearly Progress report. We are not making the grade!
If families are going to go to the trouble of just looking at the school, the school is ALREADY built, and IT is beautiful. If they are looking for cosmetics they are going to move here regardless. But if they are seriously thinking of moving here due to academics, they are going to know that we're NOT making the grade in CORE subjects simply by taking a tour of the Minnesota Department of Educations website. It's all right there in black and white, the whole report card on how each school is doing and how the district is doing as a whole.
For the people that say, "ask the school" are you looking at the website? Are you realizing that the school teachers and staff are going to give excuses because this effects them personally and professionally? We, the evil vote-no's, just want the excuses to stop and have the opportunity to know EXACTLY where this money is going. 2 million dollars IS a lot of money. It's not unreasonable to want better than failing grades.
For the ones that say "teachers pay out of their own pocket for school supplies." I work in a different occupation, and no one is paying for me to get supplies to make my job more efficient. I "chose" my career just like teachers do, I think you know going into certain careers that not everything you need is going to be paid for by someone else.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 08 2007,1:04 pm
QUOTE
If families are going to go to the trouble of just looking at the school, the school is ALREADY built, and IT is beautiful. If they are looking for cosmetics they are going to move here regardless. But if they are seriously thinking of moving here due to academics, they are going to know that we're NOT making the grade in CORE subjects simply by taking a tour of the Minnesota Department of Educations website. It's all right there in black and white, the whole report card on how each school is doing and how the district is doing as a whole.
Excellent, EXCELLENT point!It isn't how the school LOOKS--it is how it PERFORMS. This begs twin questions--"Are the schools underperforming?" If so, will money cure the problem? What assurance do we have that this additional money will actually HELP this time?
If the schools are NOT underperforming, then I guess they don't need the money.
C'mon, school administration and TEAM supporters--Which one is it?
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 08 2007,1:18 pm
Bianca states, "The teachers need to be accountable for test scores and teaching. It's called a yearly review. If they do their job they should get a raise which I am sure they do."
Teachers are not the only ones held accountable for education and test scores. Parents should be held accountable too. I most certainly do not depend entirely on the school district for my child's education. I believe I play just as large of a role as the teachers do.
Spidey states, "From what I can tell, the kids are "below" average according to news reports and statistics."
Take a good hard look at that child's home life.
It is honorable that Bianca wants to stand up for the elderly in the community. Not only do higher taxes affect the elderly, higher taxes affects everyone. But to blame specifically on school and test scores is not the answer either.
Dinomaac states,
“Of course... I will vote YES. There is no other choice. A "No Vote" is a vote against Albert Lea. A "Yes Vote" is FOR Albert Lea. I'm not like all the negative Nellies that want to penalize the school district for Federal and State regulations and budgets that have killed the local school districts. I want Albert Lea to grow, not die! Why are doctors leaving Albert Lea and why are doctors not coming? One of the reasons is the referendum. Why are big businesses (that Albert Lea needs to recruit) not coming to Albert Lea? One of the reasons is the referendum not passing. We need to make a choice of whether we want Albert Lea to grow or die.... what do you want it to do?"
Dinomac you said it all in a nutshell! Good for you!!
Scornix states,
"But if this referendum fails, it's another slamming door on Albert Lea (and they're aren't too many doors left)."
Well said. I could not agree more.
I vote YES. I believe in our community and I believe in our children. I will pay to have a better future for my children, grandchildren, friends and neighbors.
Posted by Botto 82 on Oct. 08 2007,1:51 pm
I know at least one mother who home-schools. Her kids are academically ahead of their publicly-educated counterparts by whole grade levels, lending credence to the notion that good education starts at home. My 7-year-old son reads at a fifth-grade level, because we read to him every night starting at age one. I was reading at a sixth-grade level in the first grade. No "See Dick run" for me.
Thinking that you can just dump your kids on the school's doorstep and the school does the rest is irresponsible at best.
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 08 2007,2:06 pm
Botto 82, You stated,
"Thinking that you can just dump your kids on the school's doorstep and the school does the rest is irresponsible at best."
I could not agree with you more.
We constantly read to our children and they are the center of our life. We encourage them to do their best, be active, be honest, get involved. At young ages, my children know why they are going to college - to get a degree, to get a good job - and to never quit learning. They see me, their 30 something mother attending classes online all the time. I tell them I will never quit learning. Almost everything we do involves our kids. Instead of putting them in front of a t.v. or letting them spend useless hours playing video games, we encourage activities to help them learn. They are smart and very well adjusted. We take an active part in their development and learning. Parents need to be involved.
Good for you in being involved in your child's life. Your child will succeed because you are playing an active role in his/her upbringing.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 08 2007,2:18 pm
A good observation, Botto. When conducting museum tours in Owatonna, we had a LOT of home schoolers attending. Without exception, they were well-behaved, courteous, asked good questions, and seemed far more developed than public school kids.Private/parochial schools were somewhere in between--but the difference between them and public schools was readily apparent.
For all of those that say "There is no other choice"--these ARE "other choices".
For all of those who equate spending more with "better" education--there are no credible studies to bear this out. Just the OPPOSITE is true--North Dakota spends the among the least per student, but has consistently high academic achievement. New York and Washington D.C. spend the MOST per student, but have the WORST records.
For all of those who equate spending more with "better" education, consider the success of private/parochial schools. They get by on a fraction of the cost of public schools, and turn out better students.
For all of those who demand "bread and circuses"--sports, extracurriculars, band, etc. to "turn out a well-rounded individual"--consider the success of most private schools, who DO NOT have a football team or any "extracurriculars"--not only are their students achieving more academically, but their students don't seem to be deprived of a "well-rounded" upbringing.
For all of those who say that it will spur people to locate here--we've been listening to that broken record for far too long--and it hasn't worked. That doesn't keep these same people from chanting their mantra.
For all those saying that "it means a well-educated workforce"--I can't think of anybody that hasn't located here because people are too stupid. Our "well-educated workforce" doesn't HAVE to remain here--unlike even 50 years ago, people tend to MOVE. As it is, we are educating the workforce for OTHER communities. Lower taxes, bring jobs in--and bright people will find US.
For all of those who bleat "it's for the CHILDREN"--here's a clue--any time someone says "It's for the children", it is NOT about the children--it's about someone USING the children.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 08 2007,3:36 pm
I would hope that everyone does not just accept what the school board and TEAM assert about funding. Everyone needs to do their own research, ask questions, question the agenda of those answering your questions and don't just vote based on the scare tactics of TEAM. What kind of budget does St Theodores have to work with? Doubt if it is anything compared to the District taking into student size. Are we going to start to suggest that the parents sending thier kids to St Theodores are not making sure that the kids have the best education. I hope not.
I don't think that some people are understanding what those voting no are saying. Most of us think that there is no accountability and we are not all sure if the kids are going to suffer. There are some personal agendas involved in this. We also don't like the blackmail scare tactics. And teachers should NEVER be allowed to tell their students how their parents should vote. Those tactics will backfire and drive voters out to vote No on election day. It also crosses boundries and teachers should be reprimanded.
Posted by january on Oct. 08 2007,5:58 pm
Our experiences in life help mold, color, view the way we each live our life. I can't possibly know what it is like to be a Somalian living in Africa, a coal miner in Kentucky or a rock star in LA.Just as difficult to understand are two parent families that often have two incomes, time for at least one parent to be with their children and enough food in the frig so that the kids aren't worried where the next meal is coming from, so we label those people as better.
Single parent homes are a fact of life. Over 50% of children live in a single parent home.
A single parent often has a difficult time making ends meet.
One job may not be enough. Time is precious. A liveable wage is hard to come by so they may have to work two jobs and the hours can encompass all shifts.
I found Tom Schleck editorial today to be depressing at best.
When did we lose emphathy for our fellow human beings?
When did we decide whose childs' life is worth more?
When is it OK to make an innocent child feel bad because his parents may be divorced or unmarried or poor?
It is easy and a cop-out to blame those students that are poor, or special needs or English as a second language for the failure of the school District in NCLB
This District needs to tutor those students that need more help. NOW. Federal sanctions will be placed next year and my guess is it will only get worse...expense wise.
District 241 has a very high ratio of Masters prepared teachers. Start utilizing their education for those students that need more help. The students that are failing NCLB need them.
To be sure there will be more than enough to teach the College Courses being offered at ALHS.
Posted by Botto 82 on Oct. 08 2007,7:30 pm
My aforementioned home-schooling mom is single, and has been for years. Her ex-husband, the father, is nowhere to be seen. She's worked two jobs for years, and always found time to give the kids what they need, both in materialistic concerns and education, often while dog-tired.The single-parent argument doesn't hold water.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 08 2007,8:53 pm
For those who don't get the Trib, here is the Letter to the Editor in which January was referring to: I always feel/felt lost when someone would mention something about an article/Letter to the Editor that was in the paper and I couldn't understand what they were posting about. I copied this for the ones who live out of town and/or who don't get the Tribune.Education today is not like it was in the old days.
A good basic education is a good idea. Clearly this must be cost-effective given the tight budgets we need to live within.
From 1890 to 1970 the education provided in America allowed people to develop cars, televisions, planes, win two world wars, educate a wave of immigrants, deal with Depression and put a man on the moon. A great job with low-cost education.
During the period 1900 to 1970 there was less per capita spending in Minnesota and the U.S. on education, and there were higher student to teacher ratios. There were less mandates by federal and state authorities, but students got the education and were able to use it. Public colleges got less aid but charged less.
Today we understand that teachers work ten months a year, not nine, and compensation packages should be compared with B.B. and M.A. government professional such as nurses and social workers. We also need to look at the fringes and how all those fringes add costs to the compensation of teachers per months.
We need to consider that today the major problem is that many students come from unstable unmarried households that many of these students do not get the direction from their home they need. This is not the schools fault or responsibility.
At the same time, we find many well-educated, responsible professionals and others tend to marry each other they have good jobs and end up far ahead of their compatriots who may have grown up in a single-parent household and not have the advantages that others may have had. Schools provide educationto all as in the past. (Compare to places like Brookings,S.D.)
Today we don't need to spend more on education. We need to end the incentive and subsidy to poor parenting and irresponsible reproduction. We need to end things like the EIC we need to encourage people to be married and be settled before they have children. Sober, responsible and effective self-supporting parenting should be our goal with people making the ultimate free choice that they and their children have to live with.
In public education. We need to check on what per capita spending was in 1912,1935,1969,1990 and 2006 both locally and in the state of Minnesota. (inflation adjusted). We need to check what the student and staff ration was in the above mentioned years and remember that schools did not coddle kids in the past, they learned or failed in less costly schools.
School officials need to be very strong about cost-effective education for students based on responsible levels of revenue. Expensive state and federal mandates must be rigorously opposed. Cost-effective school districts in other states such as Brookings, S.D., should be studied to see how a good education may be provided for less.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 08 2007,9:15 pm
Although I don't agree with many parts of his letter it did get me wondering about Brookings, S.D. as he mentioned it twice.Their school district website is one of the best I've seen. < http://www.brookings.k12.sd.us/ > There doesn't seem to be a lot left out for people that want to know what is going on.
From the Brookings site:
Educating our Young
In the Brookings area, educational opportunities abound for students as young as three years of age. Several area preschools offer programs to start young minds on their educational journey.
The Brookings School District contains three excellent elementary schools—Hillcrest, Medary, and Central. At these schools, children learn in smart classrooms by highly qualified instructors. South Dakota ranks first in students per instructional and internet connected computer in the schools, with one computer for every 1.8 students.
In 2009, a new intermediate school serving grades 4 and 5 will be constructed for the community to replace Central Elementary, which will be converted into South Dakota’s first children’s science museum. The new “green” school will be environmentally-friendly and energy efficient.
MISSION STATEMENT
The mission of the Brookings School District is to ensure that all students graduate with the knowledge and skills for continuous development as productive global citizens through a partnership of school, family, and community in a dynamic, healthy environment.
GOALS
• Educate all students.
• Enhance school, parent, and community collaboration.
• Facilitate quality staff development.
• Foster fiscal stability and develop funding sources.
• Maintain a clean, safe, and healthy
learning environment.
• Nurture an awareness and appreciation of diversity.
*Interesting read and interesting to note that their population is 18,000.
Thoughts?
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 08 2007,10:12 pm
Okay, here's the moment you all haven't been waiting for...Cheesy and wierd as ever...a new referendum song...
< http://s158754362.onlinehome.us/images/tell_the_governor.html >
Posted by Botto 82 on Oct. 08 2007,11:52 pm
QUOTE
Today we don't need to spend more on education. We need to end the incentive and subsidy to poor parenting and irresponsible reproduction. We need to end things like the EIC we need to encourage people to be married and be settled before they have children. Sober, responsible and effective self-supporting parenting should be our goal with people making the ultimate free choice that they and their children have to live with.
This says it all, to me. Society has gone down the crapper in this regard, even since my childhood in the 70's. We had maybe three conspicuously unwed mothers in high school during my secondary education. How many in the high school this year?
What was then considered fringe and bad behavior back then is almost mainstream now, what with every other episode of Maury themed around "Who's the baby daddy?" and Jerry Springer and Hip-hop culture. There's more "Free Love" going on now than our Flower Children predecessors could ever imagine. So much for that social experiment known as the Sexual Revolution. Given where we've wound up, maybe a return to more conservative values doesn't seem so bad.
Every one of these symptoms of societal decline has an implied government program. AFDC, EIC, the pursuit of deadbeat dads; it all comes with a taxpayer price tag. And that takes away from education dollars and resources. How much further from our grandparents ideals do we have to slip before we stop letting our kids wallow in the crapulence that gushes from the TV and the MTV?
Defenders of the Patriot Act should be forced to answer the following question: Who's more damaging to the nation - 9/11 conspiracy theorists or MTV producers?
With the current and collective worship of wealth (bling-bling) and on-demand sex we shouldn't be surprised at where we've ended up.
Posted by Spidey on Oct. 08 2007,11:58 pm
Well said Botto!
Posted by Spidey on Oct. 09 2007,1:56 am
I was just reading some of the schools website. The Alahasa has several articles written by the Principle, students and teachers referencing the referendum. I'm posting the website here in case you weren't aware of it. It's listed under ISSUES.< The Alahasa - Issues >
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 09 2007,2:13 am
So let me get this straight. Families and society have gone to hell in a hand basket because too many kids are having illicit sex? BS, I'm not buying it because kids have always had sex except Botto.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 09 2007,6:25 am
Wow, I'm impressed krdjis. No wonder people said they missed your songs. I found my foot tapping along. Personally wasn't crazy about the last line of the chorus but I'm sure we could add our own line.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 09 2007,6:33 am
Oh, that's just great. I'll have that little "jingle" in my head all day now. It'll be like the old Jakes jingle that no one has been able to forget......just call 3-7-3- 7-3-5-0Jakes Pizza.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 09 2007,10:23 am
Since we're talking about Brookings as an excellent school, here's a comparison of their high schools:Students--Brookings 897 Albert Lea 1177
Teachers 51, 72
Pupil/Teacher ratio 15:1--16:1
Instructional expense/pupil $185.00-$194.99--$230.00-$259.00
All other expense/pupil $5100-$5299.99--$7,500-$8199
< My Webpage >
< My Webpage >
Brookings has a lower pupil/teacher ratio, and spends less per high school student than Albert Lea. Their NCLB "report card" shows them to be slightly better than Albert Lea.
Both cities have about 18,000 residents.
Here's something interesting, though. Brookings is viewed as a city "on the move", while Albert Lea is ageing--but the reality is that Albert Lea has more kids in school than Brookings!
Here are the same numbers for Austin:
QUOTE
SCHOOL SUMMARY DETAIL
Grades Served 09 - 12
Total Students 1,200
Total Teachers 62
Pupil/Teacher Ratio 19 : 1
Instructional Expense/Pupil $195.00 - 209.99
All Other Expense/Pupil $8,200.00 OR MORE
Higher pupil/teacher ratio, less instructional expense/pupil, higher "other" expense.Grades Served 09 - 12
Total Students 1,200
Total Teachers 62
Pupil/Teacher Ratio 19 : 1
Instructional Expense/Pupil $195.00 - 209.99
All Other Expense/Pupil $8,200.00 OR MORE
And for Owatonna
QUOTE
SCHOOL SUMMARY DETAIL
Grades Served 09 - 12
Total Students 1,715
Total Teachers 85
Pupil/Teacher Ratio 20 : 1
Instructional Expense/Pupil $110.00 - 129.99
All Other Expense/Pupil $7,500.00 - 8,199.99
Far more students, higher teacher/pupil ratio, FAR lower instructional expense per pupil--same OTHER expense.Grades Served 09 - 12
Total Students 1,715
Total Teachers 85
Pupil/Teacher Ratio 20 : 1
Instructional Expense/Pupil $110.00 - 129.99
All Other Expense/Pupil $7,500.00 - 8,199.99
So much for the "Money equals better education" theory. Spend it if you want a particular program, but don't try to sell it as being central to good education.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 09 2007,11:12 am
^Nice comparisons, Jim.It was interesting to note that Brookings is also in the process of replacing a school with a "green school". Maybe that is something later on down the line people will have to start thinking about to save more costs.
If it takes a regular citizen 10 minutes to find information on ideas that might help or give us ideas for cutting costs with education, wouldn't you think that the people we voted in as our school board members could take their time and at least try to come up with some solutions/ideas rather than the funding is dried up so we need your money?
When I went on the site that Spidey had posted, again even printed in the AHLAHASA, although they are dated, Prescott when questioned about sports, cuts, etc. there again were no difinitives just "coulds" but he did put the plug in to the students to tell neighbors etc to vote yes the next time.
There's a solution
Posted by busybee on Oct. 09 2007,11:42 am
QUOTE
Teachers are not the only ones held accountable for education and test scores. Parents should be held accountable too. I most certainly do not depend entirely on the school district for my child's education. I believe I play just as large of a role as the teachers do.
Agreed 100% on parental accountability by playing an active role in educating their child. However, test scores are more accountable to the school environment because they will always have more information on what a child needs to learn in order to perform successfully on a test than parents ever will. We wouldn't even need teachers if parents were equally responsible in helping their child produce the best test score possible.
QUOTE
My aforementioned home-schooling mom is single, and has been for years. Her ex-husband, the father, is nowhere to be seen. She's worked two jobs for years, and always found time to give the kids what they need, both in materialistic concerns and education, often while dog-tired.
The single-parent argument doesn't hold water.
The single-parent argument doesn't hold water.
Neither does the married argument being the best environment. Actually, the best environment for children is having parents who get along and co-parent by each taking shared responsibilities for all the needs of their children. A two parent home does not automatically equate to a "get along, co-parenting environment." Couples can be married and one parent may still be the "single" parent. Further, staying married for the sake of children because society states it's the best environment has no bearing on if it actually is. If the home environment is chaotic because the parents do not get along, it will always be better long term for children if the parents either figure out their issues together or move on and figure out their issues separately in order to end the chaos and move toward the point of co-parenting as effectively as possible.
From the Letter to the Editor:
QUOTE
We need to consider that today the major problem is that many students come from unstable unmarried households that many of these students do not get the direction from their home they need. This is not the schools fault or responsibility.
Grrrr...I so dislike this statement!
It makes NO sense to me that these same children who he claims is "unteachable" DO gain MORE academically and PERFORM better academically in elementary than in middle school or high school! This same group of students he is referring to will have LESS behavioral issues in elementary than in middle school or high school. This same group of students will be CLOSER to proficiency level in elementary than middle school or high school.
Maybe the middle schools and high schools need to give students more "direction" in ACADEMIC achievement instead of believing students learned everything they needed in elementary to successfully be accountable for their own growth in education. Maybe the middle schools and high schools need to focus on academics with more "direction" towards rigorous cirriculums instead of offering unsubstantiated "educational" opportunities. Maybe the middle schools and high schools need to offer students more "direction" by putting less distance between the achievement gap. Maybe the middle schools and high schools need to offer "direction" to students by increasing their academic educational support services in their classrooms and out...this would also offer more "direction" in behavioral issues.
Why do people insist that ACADEMICS and whether or not our kids are LEARNING is the failure of children's home environments is beyond me. That does not excuse the district, school board, administration, teachers, staff, etc... from being accountable in what they can or could provide in their environment. After all, they do spend a significant amount of time with these children.
From the Letter to the Editor:
QUOTE
Today we don't need to spend more on education. We need to end the incentive and subsidy to poor parenting and irresponsible reproduction. We need to end things like the EIC we need to encourage people to be married and be settled before they have children. Sober, responsible and effective self-supporting parenting should be our goal with people making the ultimate free choice that they and their children have to live with.
I sure see that happening before the vote on the referendum. Another issue I dislike. It's almost like he's saying that kids are unteachable and until these changes occur, don't look at the schools to do anything better than what they are because they are the helpless victims.
Do we want teachers/staff/administration/school board to believe they are helpless in continuting to provide, make improvements, set higher standards & goals and/or challenge themselves when looking at student responses to the school learning environment? I personally NEVER viewed any student as unteachable while teaching them because their parents weren't married, a parent had a drinking problem, household income level, their parents were only 16 when they were born or they get EIC. Same for behavior issues.
One can assert that these issues can and do affect students (not EIC) and that can explain the struggles students bring to the school environment, but it does not DEFINE the abilities students bring to the environment, nor does it define who a student is as a person.
As a parent, a member of society, and someone who has experience in teaching it truly breaks my heart when I see such blatant negative labeling of children. If people honestly believe this way about children and their abilities, they are the biggest contributors in setting children up to fail. How sad and how terrifying to think that a teacher may have this type of labeling and negativism in their classroom. And I assure you, it's happens!
If you really take a long hard look at the attitudes of society and teachers/schools as students progress in their years of education you can see one of the issues I have with public education. In the earlier grades there is compassion and sympathy for issues such as what has been brought up and goals for offering the MOST towards academic achievement. How often do people complain about the money spent in elementary education on title I, all day K, after school programs etc... We all want those young ones to get the best start possible and 9 times out of 10 the elementary school environment is focused and sensative to doing the MOST for academic achievement while paying the LEAST amount of attention on children being unteachable because of outside environmental factors.
As time goes on and students enter into the upper grades the accountability for lagging behind in academic achievement usually equates to an increased frequency of society/schools/teachers shifting blame and responsibility to the students and their home environment rather than looking to make improvements. For some reason, the philosophy of the public education system has taught society that all students do not need as much ACADEMIC support beyond elementary. Instead the expectation is they will have learned the majority of all the tools necesssary to be almost as self-sufficient as an adult meeting academic achievement goals set for them. Add to that they are also expected to embrace and participate in an extra school related activity and still be able to maintain high achievement, putting more hours in a day than most adults will in a normal work day. I honestly believe only a small percentage of students are ready for this type of independent challenge in life at such a young age. They are not grown up yet for cripes sake! And the large percentage of students that can't succesfully manage this challenge independently, it becomes the attitude of other adults around them that they don't WANT to learn or their parents don't care enough or do enough to provide the appropriate environment for them to do well at school.
Could it be possible that the majority of students are not the graduating product we expect because of the environmental changes that occur from elementary school to middle school and high school? Could it be the change in tactics from focusing on the academic student to the "well rounded student" does have an impact?
End of my rant...sorry for the length. Have a great day everyone!
Posted by bianca on Oct. 09 2007,11:52 am
Oh Good Grief....yet more puppets on a string. Come on Dan, we know you read the forum and all you can chirp is the same old song and dance. IT HAS NOT BROUGHT JOBS YET....hello?Economic agency endorses school levy
By Sarah Light, staff writer
Tuesday, October 9, 2007 9:11 AM CDT
The Albert Lea Economic Development Agency board announced last week that it officially supports the Albert Lea School District operating levy referendum, which will come before voters in less than a month.
The focus of ALEDA is to create jobs and to increase the tax base of the area — and for this to be possible, there must be vibrant schools, ( Our school is definitely vibrant, already!) the board stated in a news release.
“The community’s commitment to its schools is a direct reflection of the quality of the workforce available,” ALEDA Executive Director Dan Dorman said. “Without that commitment, our community will not have the opportunity to compete for new jobs and will face an increasingly hard time maintaining the jobs that are here.”
Dorman said the board passed the resolution unanimously after discussion of the issue at both this month and last month’s meeting.
While there’s no guarantee that passage of the referendum will bring in more jobs, he said, without an adequate school system, the community “won’t even be at the plate to try to compete.”
FUNNY YOU SHOULD MENTION ADEQUATE.
Education has become vital for success in a time when it is increasingly more common that people with basic skills are having a difficult time of finding employment, he said. The community needs to show support to its schools to promote a qualified workforce.
ALEDA’s support of the referendum comes a week after the Albert Lea-Freeborn County Chamber of Commerce announced its support of the operating levy referendum, which if passed would increase the general fund for the district.
If the referendum does not pass, the district will have to cut $2 million from the budget, which could mean losing an elementary school building, cutting administrators and eliminating sports and extracurricular activities’ budgets.
“The business community has made clear that we support our schools and believe that the passage of this referendum is vital to our continued progress to make this an ever better place to create jobs and economic development opportunities,” ( tell me again the number of new jobs since 2000?)board Chairman Keith Fligge said.
Not quite sure...... but has the Trib came out with any reasons why the referendum, through investigative reporting, should not pass. I'd like to see that article or those articles. Because no matter how many times they print this group and that group support the referendum, it still comes down to the voters. Do they truly believe that this same old story time and time and time again is going to somehow wear people down to vote yes?These articles only give me more reason to chirp NO for now. At least come up with something original for the next article. Gadz!!
Posted by bianca on Oct. 09 2007,1:09 pm
good post busybee, I am behind you all the way on your feelings on the education lapses between elementary and the middle to highschool. It has been proven over and over again. There is just too much of a push from society for these children to be grown up by the time they are twelve, yet people still act shocked when they hear of early pregnancy. In one aspect they are being treated like adults thinking they have adult privileges but on the other hand they still need major guidance.
I didn't appreciate how the letter was written either because we, as a society, can't go back to the Ozzie and Harriet days even if we wanted to and to suggest that this could be an answer, is just silly.
There are many many successful single-parent households and it shouldn't be held against a child. Because the percentage just keeps going up on single-parent, divorced or blended families.
Many have mentioned reading levels for their elementary students, the reason they know what level their grade school child is reading at is due to testing. Constant testing and tallying of the books read and the elementary makes it fun. They give out positive reinforcement and awards/rewards all the time. Yet the AYP is not relevant, apparently, once the student gets to highschool
You hear the most kudos from parents about how well their child is doing in elementary school too versus once they get to junior and senior high. They don't keep giving kudos and/or making school fun and interesting like it is in elementary and like busybee stated the kids are tapped. Another chapping idea is how these doctors children, teachers or PTA child is put up as a student of the week. How does one become student of the week? Do they put certain names in a hat of students with good grades and then pick from the hat each week or did the student do something outstanding that week alone? I know many of the highschool students and I've yet to see a ESL, options, or disabled students name on that board. Does that mean they aren't giving it their all? To me, it's politics as usual in that aspect.
More reasons for myself that education does need an overhaul and the sooner the better.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 09 2007,1:34 pm
Busybee QUOTE
In the earlier grades there is compassion and sympathy for issues such as what has been brought up and goals for offering the MOST towards academic achievement. How often do people complain about the money spent in elementary education on title I, all day K, after school programs etc... We all want those young ones to get the best start possible and 9 times out of 10 the elementary school environment is focused and sensative to doing the MOST for academic achievement while paying the LEAST amount of attention on children being unteachable because of outside environmental factors.
How true. While the site doesn't give the comparative costs per student between elementary and high school, elementary usually gets the first cuts--and they shouldn't. Failure to learn at an early age not only creates poor study habits, but the student continues to fall behind as they are unable to keep up with the class--leading to a disinterest in learning.
Elementary doesn't have "extracurriculars".--no football team, no swimming team--maybe just a playground.
Elementary doesn't have band and chorus--perhaps just "Old McDonald" and a flutophone.
Elementary doesn't have "electives"--just who you are going to sit with at lunch.
Elementary doesn't have specialized teachers--with the exception of paras, it's just the student and the teacher.
A review of the areas for proposed cuts in the budget shows very few cuts that can be made in elementary--because they already have been made.
Posted by january on Oct. 09 2007,3:58 pm
Excellent, excellent post Busybee. I wish you would run for school board.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 09 2007,5:35 pm
QUOTE
Failure to learn at an early age not only creates poor study habits, but the student continues to fall behind as they are unable to keep up with the class--leading to a disinterest in learning.
Agreed and I would change "early age" to any age.
QUOTE
A review of the areas for proposed cuts in the budget shows very few cuts that can be made in elementary--because they already have been made.
You are 100% correct.
And, an upset would occur in elementary student performance if we would decide to relocate some of the time and money spent on academics and support towards grade level achievement by lowering those goals in order to provide elementary students with the opportunity to pursue their interests in developing bike riding skills and sand box play as part of their school day cirriculum. Maybe school sponsored sports in bike riding and sand castle building would develop the "well rounded student" at the elementary level. Wait a minute...that's what grades past elementary are for...silly me!
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 09 2007,9:22 pm
QUOTE
Wow, I'm impressed krdjis. No wonder people said they missed your songs. I found my foot tapping along.
No wonder people said they missed your songs. I found my foot tapping along.Thanks!!
Posted by bianca on Oct. 10 2007,10:36 am
Absentee Voting1. An application to vote absentee must be filled out before you can vote. To
obtain an application, call 379-4800 or 379-4812 or stop at Brookside
Education Center.
2. The ballots will be available on October 7th and will be sent out to people who have applied to vote absentee or you can actually vote absentee at that time
at Brookside Education Center through November 5th during the hours of7:30 am to 4:00 pm.
**If you know someone who is going to be out of town, please urge them to vote absentee.**
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 10 2007,12:14 pm
Some folks on this forum have been asking why ALHS went from a seven period day to block schedule and back to seven period day again. I did a little research.There were several reasons ALHS went to the block schedule: 1) To allow students to take 14-16 classes a year instead of 12-14, 2) Longer periods were better for lab classes, and 3) Longer periods were also better for more hands-on instructional strategies. The reason they went to the block schedule was not to save money; it was to create a better learning environment. Some people on this forum have said that the district never tries anything new, well this was an attempt at increasing the quality of learning of the learning experience for students.
Why, then, did they go back to the seven period day? The reasons they did this are several fold: 1) They needed to cut five teachers to lower the budget. Once this was done, there were not enough teachers for students to take 14-16 classes, 2) Also, with an increase in testing requirements from the state (NCLB) from the state, ALHS faculty began to wonder whether some students having a three or four month gap in areas such as English and math would have a negative effect on their testing scores.
It is better to take math test when you are in the midst of learning math. With the block schedule, you might not have math until the next semester.
ALHS is working hard to make sure their students are getting the best education possible, and at the same time trying to cut money from the budget, and at the same time attempt to meet testing demands from the state as a result of NCLB.
Many schools around the state have started to teach in a way that focuses almost on entirely helping kids pass NCLB tests. Some schools have started to do better, but students in those schools complain that all they're learning how to do is take tests.
I know I've said this already, but please contact board members and Dr. Prescott, or other members of the administration if you have questions about why the district is making the decisions they're making.
The more research I do, the more satisfied I am with how hard the district is working to balance demands that are coming at them from several different directions. I am going to vote "Yes, Yes" on November 6. District #241 needs this funding to do the important work of educating Albert Lea's kids.
Posted by Botto 82 on Oct. 10 2007,12:18 pm
Rather than cut teachers, why not a 5% across-the-board administration salary cut?
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 10 2007,3:21 pm
Administrative salaries: School Level=$1,064,486; District Level=$568,155; Total=$1,632,641. 5% of Total Administrative Salaries=$81,632. That probably wouldn't be enough money to keep the five teachers we cut last year. They'd need to take at least 9.2% pay cut across the board to keep from cutting five teachers. Do you really think they deserve that much of a cut? They may get a lot of criticism from folks on this forum, but I don't think they should be asked to take a 9.2% cut out of their salaries. This is a cut that would effect administrative assistants as well, not just the folks at the very top.
When you have to cut teachers, slice administrative salaries across the board by 9.2%, etc., that means the district is coming up short in its funding. The more information I collect, the more I'm convinced we need to pass this referendum.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 10 2007,5:21 pm
QUOTE
There were several reasons ALHS went to the block schedule: 1) To allow students to take 14-16 classes a year instead of 12-14,
QUOTE
Why, then, did they go back to the seven period day? The reasons they did this are several fold: 1) They needed to cut five teachers to lower the budget. Once this was done, there were not enough teachers for students to take 14-16 classes,
I'd say that was contradictory in a round about way. It's nice to see that TEAM is reading the forum. Of those five teachers cut did that include the two teachers they had to drop due to declining students?
From the ALAHASA:
Cutting hours will save money because it will allow the district to have two teachers for the price of one. Five full-time teachers will be cut because of the referendum, and two more teachers will be cut because of a declining number in students.
The thing I have a problem with is that they went back to four periods which cost $35,000.00 without having the money AND not receiving feedback. Besides the fact that we were tested with a seven period day and with a four period day, and guess what? We still failed!
The administrative cuts, IMO, would be to get rid of one, not take from their salaries. What I don't understand is why a town of our size has a superintendent that is making $120,000.00 a year, which is $20,000.00 more than the state average for superintendents. What has he done for the school or is going to do that would merit a salary that is that high?
Posted by january on Oct. 10 2007,5:37 pm
krdjis:Let me get this straight. You don't think they need to cut administrations' salary. Right?
You were sounding concerned about the previous 5 teachers they had cut. Right?
Yet a large percentage of teachers in District 241 have their Masters Degree. Right?
In all of the literature I have read our Masters teachers are about $55,000.00 yearly per average. Right? Oh and the $55,000.00 does NOT include benefits. Right?
Teachers for the most part have summers off, MEA off, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Spring break off. Right?
Does the average contract indicate teachers in District 241 work about 180 days a year? Not counting snow days, sick days etc. ?
Stop me if I am incorrect here.
A full time position almost anywhere else entails 240 days per year.
My point is I don't think our administators or teachers are getting a raw deal. We have much longevity with our teachers and that says to me they know they have a good thing going.
With this level of education and experience it puzzles me that ALHS has failed NCLB 3 years in a row. We are considered a failing district.
Does not the compensation given to teachers and administrators warrant a return on their pay? Shouldn't they be held accountable in some way?
You do not seem concerned about our failing grades as a District. You tend to gloss over this very important fact.
YOU sound like youmay be Team members and I am glad you are on here. I would like you to know that in my opinion and others I have talked with that Voting Yes is not for the kids.
Many of us believe that by voting NO we will be sending a message that the status quo is not good enough. We do not want to keep the same quality of education that we now have.
Failing is not Quality.
Our students deserve better. Our students can achieve more.
By setting the bar high we are doing them a favor. All the students a favor.
And perhaps, just perhaps by sending a clear distinct and resounding message to the Board and Administration they will be forced to step back and look at the big picture.
Doing the same thing over and over results in the same outcome over and over.
Revamp the entire system. Go to those successful school districts that have failed and turned it around by changing their systems.
And remember, any business or industry, professional, or entrepreneur looking to relocate here does have access to our test scores.
All they have to do is log onto the Minnesota Dept of Education web-site.
To believe that these individuals who have worked long and hard to achieve their success will not investigate on behalf of their children is not dealing in reality.
An not dealing in reality is by far the biggest obstacle this District has to face.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 10 2007,5:44 pm
Annual Public ReportMinnesota school districts are required to have in place a district process for addressing continuous improvement, community involvement and annual public reporting on curriculum, instruction and student achievement.
Has anyone seen this yet?The 2006-2007 guidelines on developing this process are available below. The 2006-2007 checklist is also provided to assist districts in completing their annual public report.
Districts may disseminate their report in print through the local newspaper or newsletters and/or by posting it on the district Web site. If electronic format is used, a notice including the URL of the document must be published in a print form available to the community. Print copies of the report should be available to the public upon request.
October 1, 2007, remains the date by which the local board must approve the report and October 15, 2007, remains the date by which the report should be out to the public and submitted to MDE. Reporting Basic Skills Test data pertaining to the 9th through 12th grades remains a requirement.
Districts must submit one copy of the report distributed in print to their public or one print copy and a copy of the public notice for reports available electronically to:
Minnesota Department of Education - 1500 Highway 36 West - Roseville, MN 55113-4266 - Attention: Connie J. Anderson
Contact: Connie Anderson - 651-582-8750
Posted by bianca on Oct. 10 2007,8:34 pm
Combined polling places for November 6 Special ElectionCity of Clarks Grove, Bath, Bancroft and Hartland townships will vote at The Clarks Grove Municipal Building
City of Hollandale, Geneva, Newry, Moscow and Riceland townships will vote at The Hollandale Municipal Building
City of Hayward, Oakland and Hayward townships will vote at The Hayward Community Hall
Ward I and Ward IV will vote at The Brookside Education Center
Ward VI, Albert Lea and Freeman townships will vote at
Halverson Elementary School
Wards II, III, V, City of Manchester, City of Twin Lakes, Manchester, Pickerel Lake and Nunda townships will vote at The United Methodist Church
November 6
Posted by busybee on Oct. 11 2007,2:26 am
QUOTE
1) There were several reasons ALHS went to the block schedule: To allow students to take 14-16 classes a year instead of 12-14,
Yes, in order to offer students more electives, which has been the "going thing" to do in high schools.
QUOTE
2) Longer periods were better for lab classes,
Yes, it can be.
QUOTE
3) Longer periods were also better for more hands-on instructional strategies.
Yes, that's what they said would be the best benefit for high school students.
I will add:
4) Decreases the # of textbooks purchases & supplies.
5) Teachers see more students a day. Increase from 3 classes to 5 classes per day.
QUOTE
The reason they went to the block schedule was not to save money; it was to create a better learning environment.
The district did state BOTH...that it would save money and create a better learning environment. I heard it & read it myself. I guess now is the best time for some to eliminate a few facts with the referendum so close.
QUOTE
Some people on this forum have said that the district never tries anything new, well this was an attempt at increasing the quality of learning of the learning experience for students.
Yes, credit for trying something new at ALHS. However it wasn't a new philosophy that other districts in the U.S. hadn't already incorporated into their high schools. Block scheduling is a TREND which has always LACKED sufficient evidence of producing a better learning environment for ACADEMIC achievement in high schools.
QUOTE
Why, then, did they go back to the seven period day?
Because the district chose that option rather than making adjustments to their current block schedule to better serve the students. It's their "all or nothing" way of viewing things.
QUOTE
The reasons they did this are several fold: 1) They needed to cut five teachers to lower the budget.
They cut 1 teacher in core academics and 4 teachers in electives. Two teachers would have been cut anyway because of low student #'s in their elective classes. I have always wondered why they cut 1 teacher in core academics. Seems odd there wasn't any other elective teacher to cut instead?
QUOTE
2) Also, with an increase in testing requirements from the state (NCLB) from the state, ALHS faculty began to wonder whether some students having a three or four month gap in areas such as English and math would have a negative effect on their testing scores.
Began to wonder?
There was "wondering" going on that I suspect they should have know about before they even went to the block scheduling. I knew about it, I had concerns, especially about the consequences in MATH with a block schedule. QUOTE
ALHS is working hard to make sure their students are getting the best education possible, and at the same time trying to cut money from the budget, and at the same time attempt to meet testing demands from the state as a result of NCLB.
No different than any other public school district. Some just have a different focus on how they use their funding to educate their students. I've said this before on here, if everything is a priority...nothing is a priority. This especially applies to high schools.
QUOTE
Many schools around the state have started to teach in a way that focuses almost on entirely helping kids pass NCLB tests. Some schools have started to do better, but students in those schools complain that all they're learning how to do is take tests.
I've heard that is happening. What a sad choice those districts are making.
QUOTE
The more research I do, the more satisfied I am with how hard the district is working to balance demands that are coming at them from several different directions.
We've visited the block scheduling issue in the past on here. Do you realize that districts who weren't satisfied with this type of scheduling usually modified the schedule to incorporate year round classes in core academics. District 241 didn't HAVE to go all the way back to a traditional high school schedule because they didn't have enough money. They simply don't share the options they do have with the community so they can be informed and understand.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 11 2007,3:36 am
If the referendum fails, are you going to write the district a check krdjis... Why or why not?
Posted by Common Citizen on Oct. 11 2007,8:58 am
(TameThaTane @ Oct. 11 2007,3:36 am)
QUOTE
If the referendum fails, are you going to write the district a check krdjis... Why or why not?
Good question 3T...
how many of the people that are for this referendum went out and wrote the school a personal check after the last time it wasn't passed?
I'll wait to hear from anyone that is for this referendum to respond that they did, then I'll shut up?
Posted by krdjis on Oct. 11 2007,9:38 am
QUOTE
If the referendum fails, are you going to write the district a check krdjis... Why or why not?
Last year I donated two or three hours each week of volunteer time, teaching chess to kids at the high school. In addition, I purchased all the chess sets they use. It may be a small contribution, but I like to think every little bit makes a difference.
It has been a pleasure discussing the referendum with you all. Many, many great points have been made here. It is really good for the community to have an open forum like this. You've helped me to see much more clearly the "no" arguments and I feel far more able to intelligently defend "yes, yes" position. I also wholeheartedly agree that, there are some issues we need to resolve...that money cannot fix. I'll happily team up with a "no" voter any day to do whatever we can to help make our schools better. See you at the polling booth!
Posted by Common Citizen on Oct. 11 2007,10:25 am
(krdjis @ Oct. 11 2007,9:38 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
If the referendum fails, are you going to write the district a check krdjis... Why or why not?
Last year I donated two or three hours each week of volunteer time, teaching chess to kids at the high school. In addition, I purchased all the chess sets they use. It may be a small contribution, but I like to think every little bit makes a difference.
It has been a pleasure discussing the referendum with you all. Many, many great points have been made here. It is really good for the community to have an open forum like this. You've helped me to see much more clearly the "no" arguments and I feel far more able to intelligently defend "yes, yes" position. I also wholeheartedly agree that, there are some issues we need to resolve...that money cannot fix. I'll happily team up with a "no" voter any day to do whatever we can to help make our schools better. See you at the polling booth!
how many people for the referendum went out and wrote the school a personal check after the last time the referendum failed?
Donating time, is not what Dist. 241 is asking for in this referendum.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 11 2007,11:04 am
TTT & Common Citizen, that's a valid question to ask anyone who believes it's right to vote yes and wrong to vote no. I doubt anyone will answer the question. It's been asked before.
It is ironic that people who say the schools deserve more money are usually the ones that believe the schools are being victimized by NCLB standards, lack of federal/state funding, naughty children and bad parents, too many poor families, ELL students, special ed students, yadda, yadda, yadda. Yet, they typically won't make an INDIVIDUAL choice to give the district THEIR PART of the extra funding the district wants UNTIL EVERYONE else has to.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 11 2007,11:19 am
QUOTE
Last year I donated two or three hours each week of volunteer time, teaching chess to kids at the high school. In addition, I purchased all the chess sets they use. It may be a small contribution, but I like to think every little bit makes a difference.
I think it's commendable that krdjis took the time to teach chess to students at the high school.
And if teaching chess to students helps them in any way to pass the NCLB and math and reading tests, it would have been worth it.
But...it is not the same as donating your money. Right, krdjis? It's easier on the pocketbook, though.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 11 2007,11:39 am
Does anyone have any opinions about the poll count ,where it stands now and the if they think it is representative of the trend for the vote for the referendum? I am new to the forum so I just wonder if you have taken polls before and how they turned out compared to actually was.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 11 2007,11:59 am
Polls are not very accurate because of the fact that some choose to have more than one alias, which doesn't seem right, but it happens. One woman had like 5 or 6 so someone could vote on each alias. Sad but true, although some of the polls have been really good.For instance last year we did a poll on the referendum and it failed by the forum's poll and the voters.
The reason I started the poll on "are you going to vote" is because it was brought to my attention that during "special elections" as this one is, not a lot of people get out to vote and this time it is IMPERATIVE to vote. not just complain or vent, but actually make the effort to vote and not think someone else is going to do it for you.
IMO, The only way I see the referendum being successful for TEAM this time is ONLY IF THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO VOTE NO DON'T GET OUT TO VOTE. TEAM is banking on that, so most important for the NO votes is to make sure they are at the polls on Nov. 6th
Voter turn-out will be a big determining factor this time so please remind people to vote on Nov. 6th. I even have a list of people who said "will you call me that day and remind me so I don't forget" and I'll be callin'
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 11 2007,1:18 pm
Read tonight's paper editorial entitled, "Try seeing school cuts from a student's view" by Alexandra Leland. Her touching story can be related to anyone going to school in Albert Lea. What once was may not be for much longer.
Many of you have posted how people are "using" the students to sucker you in to voting yes. I do not think that is a realistic ploy at all. What it really boils down to is the students. The students are the one's that will be directly affected by the cuts. The students are the one's that will suffer the consequences.
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 11 2007,1:18 pm
VOTE YES!!
Posted by bianca on Oct. 11 2007,1:22 pm
Exactly! That's why we need to vote NO. The grades aren't cutting it. Maybe they need to start working on the core academics and give up some of the other 483 classes they have to offer. Her father is a member of TEAM, correct? Naw, they're not using the students, or their kids for their agenda. Typical TEAM tactics.Show us some proof of what is going to be done, what is going to be cut, how does anyone, even the students know what cuts WILL be made when all you hear from the district is this could be cut.
There was a letter in the editorial last night from a woman that used to live here and said that three of the schools she went to were gone and was disappointed coming back to her hometown for a reunion they had this summer. What a shame, that she felt so compelled to even write about her dissatisfaction this much later.
Everyone has their own heart-wrenching story to tell.
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 11 2007,1:35 pm
Take a deep breath and relax Bianca. I do agree though that cutting classes, making class sizes larger, taking away the sports and even getting rid of precious library time will have nothing but a positive influence for future test scores.
I can compare your solution to the current problem like this - Let's say you have a field of corn. The weather has been great but you have a slight bug issue. Instead of dealing with the bug, you plow under your crop. Problem solved right? (I agree this is a strange analogy, however, yours is too.)
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 11 2007,1:40 pm
Bianca--you need to use the sarcasm sign. Many people might think that you actually MEAN QUOTE
Naw, they're not using the students, or their kids for their agenda
Some people don't pick up on sarcasm well--ridiculing a position by pointing out its inconsistency, saying the opposite of what you REALLY mean.Antiliberal--are you sure you have the right screen name? Voting FOR more government spending, MORE government control, equating more spending with better government, having a small group of people in government define the question, giving us only the choices of voting yes or no, all sound more like big-government liberal positions than an antiliberal.
Maybe you meant UBERLIBERAL--or maybe you are a "Giuliani liberal"--more left than the liberal party?
Posted by bianca on Oct. 11 2007,1:41 pm
Yep, that's almost the same. How about this one: For three years in a row a school district has been failing their AYP reports, they've tried block periods they've tried 7 periods but they still failed.
Instead of looking for solutions, or asking the citizens what they would like to see as far as goals for their schools, the district decided to just ask the people for more money in hopes that the district fairy God mother would magically wave her wand and the problem would be solved.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 11 2007,1:45 pm
Sorry jim, there I go assuming again, that's a bad, bad habit of mine.Bianca--you need to use the sarcasm sign. Many people might think that you actually MEAN
QUOTE
Naw, they're not using the students, or their kids for their agenda
Some people don't pick up on sarcasm well--
So, you understood it to be sarcasm though.....correct?
Posted by katlade on Oct. 11 2007,1:47 pm
What I wonder about is why do some just believe that what the Prescott and the school board are telling us is true. Just because they say they want the ref. to pass "for the kids" doesn't make it true. It is not a good idea for any governing body to increase taxes without being scrutinized. I almost get the idea that some just choose to believe that the money raised from the passing of the ref. will benefit only the students. If only that were the case. There is way more to the story than that.
Challenging authority is not a bad thing.
I do think that the TEAM group has crossed boundaries this time and angered many into going out to vote NO. It is never a good idea to try to shame people to get what you want.
There was a prevoius post about Doctors leaving ALMC because of the shool situation. Does anyone have proof that is the reason or could it be the doctors are not satisfied with how the ALMC is taking care of business. I hear one of the improvements will be to add large screen TVs and fireplaces. I would just be happy to have a good selection of magazines to read from. I don't want to be waiting that long that I need to be watching TV. That is their problem - full waiting rooms.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 11 2007,1:54 pm
Bianca--"Who, ME? Being SARCASTIC?" Antiliberal--In your last analogy, no, you don't plow under your field of corn. If you have had a bug problem for the last 10 years, you change brands to a bug-resistant corn. You ask your neighbors what works for them, then you make choices. The choices might not all be palatable--a bug-resistant seed might result in planting fewer acres (closing an unneeded school) but at least you got to make a choice.
That's the problem with the school referendum. A few people decide how much to spend, and what programs will be funded. No input from the public. After deciding how much money they are going to hit us up for, they call a referendum. They don't tell us WHAT the programs will be that will be funded or cut, and they don't guarantee that the money will actually produce the outcome desired.
The public doesn't vote these referendums down because they are cheap, or they don't care about schools. They vote them down because the incessant demand for more money hasn't produced the desired results, and the public is frustrated because they have no input.
The required action--VOTE THIS TURKEY DOWN and come back with a product the public can support. Don't vote for a bad bill. Develop a dialogue next spring--giving the public time and opportunity to convey what is important to THEM. Let the PUBLIC decide whether to close an unneeded school--THEN call a referendum.
If the school board had come back with a million dollars in cuts, and a million dollars in bonding--it would sail right through--but they continue to over-reach.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 11 2007,1:58 pm
^good post.In the Tribune today there was this little tid-bit on a panelist group:
Dan Dorman, former representative to the Minnesota State Legislature and member of grass-roots organization Parents United for Public Education;
Now there's another group and wouldn't there be some kind of conflict of issue with ALEDA endorsing the referendum when he's in a personal group for it? How unbiased is that? Why can't District 241 ask for a little of what Austin got? Ask Hormel for the money, they gave Austin 2 million.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 11 2007,2:08 pm
(jimhanson @ Oct. 11 2007,1:54 pm)
QUOTE
Bi
That's the problem with the school referendum. A few people decide how much to spend, and what programs will be funded. No input from the public. After deciding how much money they are going to hit us up for, they call a referendum. They don't tell us WHAT the programs will be that will be funded or cut, and they don't guarantee that the money will actually produce the outcome desired.
The public doesn't vote these referendums down because they are cheap, or they don't care about schools. They vote them down because the incessant demand for more money hasn't produced the desired results, and the public is frustrated because they have no input.
That's the problem with the school referendum. A few people decide how much to spend, and what programs will be funded. No input from the public. After deciding how much money they are going to hit us up for, they call a referendum. They don't tell us WHAT the programs will be that will be funded or cut, and they don't guarantee that the money will actually produce the outcome desired.
The public doesn't vote these referendums down because they are cheap, or they don't care about schools. They vote them down because the incessant demand for more money hasn't produced the desired results, and the public is frustrated because they have no input.
Exactly
No accountability
No confidence
No vision
No transparency
No imagination
No logic
Those are some of the reasons to vote no. As far as I am concerned they have not gotten it right yet. I would like to see them make cuts that don't directly affect students but rather directly affect the administration. Right now the cuts seem rather arbitrary.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 11 2007,2:18 pm
Just had the dissatisfaction of going through the fishwrap.At least THREE articles pushing the referendum.
.....and Scott S. are you for real?!
[QUOTE]However you may feel about the Nov. 6, Albert Lea school district levy we at the Albert Lea Tribune have been trying to show both sides of the equation.[/QUOTE]
That's the biggest load of donkey doo-doo I have ever read from that... that.... that ........Arghhhhhh Get over yourself, that is not journalism. Boone obviously needs another call.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 11 2007,2:47 pm
Still working on finding out the law change for next year...could be yet another "unfunded mandate." Here's what I'm being told by my credible source...the qualifications for meeting special ed services may be more dependent upon student grade level achievement. We could be looking at many more students qualifying because the government wants the public schools to start addressing the issue of students NOT performing at grade level rather than the current criteria, which is set up to keep increasing the gap needed to meet the qualifications for help as students progress from elementary to middle school to high school.
Be afraid, be very afraid, of what is going to be happening in the near future if this referendum passes without our district addressing the above issue. I predict one of two things happening; if it's mandated, the cuts prevented from happening with Yes, Yes votes will happen anyway, or two, if it's not mandated the students our district are supposed to serve will have to wait until this referendum is completed so the district can ask for local funding to support it. Things are not going to get any easier for District 241, even if this referendum passes...right now is the time to start concentrating on ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT, not KEEPING THINGS THE SAME.
Posted by Ginkgo on Oct. 11 2007,5:09 pm
Why does some people that are posting seem to think that something is being hidden. Don't you know that every school board meeting is open to the public. How many times have you been there with your ideas on saving money, or helping develope a better education. Do you give imput directly to the six elected school board members? Do you ask for specific information from them, the district, or search the state web site for acurate information. It is so easy for you to sit back and take pot shots, but not do any thing possitive to help change what you think is wrong. Key word is think.Our elected representatives research the details, look at the consequences, and know how the state law controlls a lot that can be done at the local level.
Have you even tried to look beyond the surface level of the AYP? Have you talked to the teachers to find out what is happening and why the results are what they are? Again, it is so easy to critizie and be against, it is a lot harder to be in there trying to effect change and working to help improve the schools. Do you honestly think that teachers are not trying to do the best (sure there are always a few slackers in every area). Most of them I know are dedicated to helping their students be all they can be.
Maybe you should volunteer to help in the grade school, or be part of Americorp at the Junior High School and actually help a kid.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 11 2007,5:45 pm
QUOTE
Why does some people that are posting seem to think that something is being hidden
Hidden is probably not the right term, more like they just won't come out and say what will be cut, rather than "could" get cut and how will the test scores go up.
Peter said that Prescott was going to write an article in the Tribune explaining why the AYP report failed for the third year in a row. I never saw that article so maybe hidden is correct.
QUOTE
Do you ask for specific information from them, the district, or search the state web site for acurate information.
Hey now, where do you think we come up with the best stuff? It's all there in black and white with no spin.
QUOTE
actually help a kid.
We will
by voting no until we're satisfied with the outcome.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 11 2007,5:55 pm
The people who wish to vote no for now are having meetings and you can pm me if you are interested in canvassing, donating, or speaking to citizens to vote No until some solutions are made.Together we can show them that more money to the district without plans in place does NOT mean a better education nor a better community.
Posted by january on Oct. 11 2007,6:19 pm
GinkgoIt can be daunting to any entity when there are a group of educated individuals that have actually gone beyond the District 241 web site and have investigated what is going on with State and Federal mandates.
It is easy to label individuals that do not agree with anothers point of view as "Negative"
Busybee has stated a concern about potential new mandates.
How do you answer her/him ?
And finally, with your reference to volunteering at the school / I think those individuals that help are to be looked up to. They help more than anyone will know.
I will tell you that my husband is far better at helping others than I could ever hope to be. I could never live up to his kind and giving spirit. He spends a lot of time and money helping others.
But as the Bible says. We are not to boast about our giving.
You will never ever hear him say he does anything for anyone, yet I see the good he does.
It is very personal and to strike out at others on this form for expressing their opinion by impying that they are wasting their time instead of helping is just plain mean.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 11 2007,6:26 pm
QUOTE
Why does some people that are posting seem to think that something is being hidden.
Who made claim to that?
QUOTE
Don't you know that every school board meeting is open to the public.
Seriously, do you think it's fair to expect people to only get all the information if and only if they go to a school board meeting?
QUOTE
Do you give imput directly to the six elected school board members?
Been there, done that...didn't work, my thoughts on the philosophy in education, especially beyond elementary goes against the grain.
QUOTE
Do you ask for specific information from them, the district, or search the state web site for acurate information.
Yes. I have learned, however, that the very best information comes from listening to the students district 241 serve.
QUOTE
Again, it is so easy to critizie and be against, it is a lot harder to be in there trying to effect change and working to help improve the schools.
I rarely criticize...I simply want the district to recognize that they have the capablility to make improvements that will affect all students, not just keep things the same for some students.
QUOTE
Do you honestly think that teachers are not trying to do the best (sure there are always a few slackers in every area). Most of them I know are dedicated to helping their students be all they can be.
I've never said that. I believe in teachers...more than not are dedicated to teaching students to learn, but they are only given so much time to do so, especially beyond elementary.
QUOTE
Maybe you should volunteer to help in the grade school, or be part of Americorp at the Junior High School and actually help a kid.
I don't know about the rest of us who expect more in ACADEMICS, but I will consider doing that, or maybe returning back in the education field after my youngest child is in school. I have 4 children, one in highschool (home schooled), one in middle school with LD (I have already started picking up the slack) one in elementary (things are going well there) and one to young for school who needs me to help preprare for school. Right now, my children need me more than anyone else's do.
Posted by january on Oct. 11 2007,6:41 pm
In reference to the Tribune article by Alexandra Leland:First of all what a beautiful and bright girl. Her parents have a lot to be proud of. She certainly is a success story. University of Wisconsin Madison is not easy to get into and she obviously has what it takes.
I have just a couple of questions concerning the article. She stated "Without a successful referendum vote, the majority of the library staff will be cut and the libraries will possibly not even be open during school hours."
That is just a little difficult to fathom. I guess I understand cutting staff but closing the library?
She further notes that if the referendum does not pass Math masters and the science fair will be cut.
All of the small surrounding schools have Math teams and science fairs. They do not look to be eliminated.
Ms Leland states that she is able to skip a year of college due to college classes offered at ALHS.
Post secondary options are offered at all schools in Minnesota. ALHS may have to eliminate their own teachers teaching it at ALHS but those students will have the option of taking those same classes through actual colleges. This will be free to the students.
The difference we are looking at here is that now ALHS has their own teachers teaching college courses. The students stay at ALHS. ALHS continues to get the money for that student as the student is enrolled at ALHS. ALHS wants that.
If ALHS drops the college courses being offered at the High School. ALHS students have the option of taking college classes at any college including Riverland in AL or Austin. Acutally there are many High Schools that offer on-line course for their Juniors and Seniors as well.
You will find students at any of the smaller surrounding schools taking college courses as well.
She further says ..."with the majority of electives on the chopping block..." What electives exactly?
I just think that Albert Lea High School can no longer be all things to all people.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 11 2007,6:51 pm
Bianca,What does voting no to referendum get us?
If we lose what happens?
It just seems we will be further behind and have to catch up!
Is losing really what we want?
Just wondering about your "no for now" methodology.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 11 2007,7:04 pm
QUOTE
"Without a successful referendum vote, the majority of the library staff will be cut and the libraries will possibly not even be open during school hours."
Nobody is proposing to "close the libraries". The Board listed SEVERAL scenarios--demonstrating full or partial closure--note they propose BOTH. From the School Board possible closure site: QUOTE
Eliminate all Library (Media) Staff (specialists, clerks and
books/supplies) ($570 K)
• School Libraries (media centers) would not be available for
students
• Media specialist would not be available to support classroom
instruction on the use of research and technology skills
• Lack of access to materials and media support for the students
would impact achievement
• Lack of access to materials and media support for teachers would
impact achievement and instruction
• No media support for student research
• Teachers would have to deliver all technology and media curriculum
• Media materials would not be maintained and would quickly become
outdated
• Reduced ability to track materials removed from media center
• Teachers would have to run the Media Center creating as many
different individuals using/running checkout machine requiring
staff development and persistent upkeep of the machines
• The purchase of materials would no longer take place, thus
outdating the Libraries/Media Centers in a short time
Eliminate all 6 Library (Media) Clerks ($140 K)
• Media centers (libraries) would not be available to students unless
supervised by the media specialist or the classroom teacher which
will reduce classroom instruction time
• Media specialist (librarian) instructional time reduced
• Limited access to materials and other media services
• Teacher would be accountable for student checkout of media
materials
• Inventory of books and materials along with general organization
and management of the media centers will likely become spread out
and lost when not monitored closely
8/16/2007
10
• Reduced access to library books, materials because librarians would
have to reshelf, repair, process all books and materials
• Eliminate laptop computer checkout to students at high school
• Potential loss of quality media staff and their families to the
community
Reduce Elementary Library (Media) Specialists by 1.0 FTE ($55 K)
• With one Media Specialist(librarian) to be shared among 4 buildings
100% of time would be used to support the integrity of the media
centers, leaving no time for student instruction
• Media specialist(librarian) would not be available to support classroom
instruction on the use of research and media technology skills
• Access to materials and media support for teachers would impact
achievement
o No media support for research
o Teachers would deliver all technology and media curriculum
• Inventory of books and materials will likely become spread out and lost
when not monitored closely
• Potential loss of quality media staff and family to the community
Reduce High School Library (Media) Specialist to .5 and Clerk to .5
($40 K)• Students would have limited access to the media center because of
lack of supervision
• Access to materials and other media services would be very limited
• Media Specialist instruction time and other media services to staff
and students would be limited
• Inventory of books and materials along with general organization
and management of media center will become spread out and lost
when not monitored closely
• Laptop computer checkout program for ALHS students eliminated
• Potential loss of quality media staff and their families to the
community
Reduce district library (media) book and supply budget by 50% ($75 K)
• This would be a short term reduction, as it would be
difficult/impossible to sustain this reduction over time
• Negative overall impact to student achievement, as it’s difficult to
meet all students’ needs when resources become limited
• Resource availability to students would not remain current
books/supplies) ($570 K)
• School Libraries (media centers) would not be available for
students
• Media specialist would not be available to support classroom
instruction on the use of research and technology skills
• Lack of access to materials and media support for the students
would impact achievement
• Lack of access to materials and media support for teachers would
impact achievement and instruction
• No media support for student research
• Teachers would have to deliver all technology and media curriculum
• Media materials would not be maintained and would quickly become
outdated
• Reduced ability to track materials removed from media center
• Teachers would have to run the Media Center creating as many
different individuals using/running checkout machine requiring
staff development and persistent upkeep of the machines
• The purchase of materials would no longer take place, thus
outdating the Libraries/Media Centers in a short time
Eliminate all 6 Library (Media) Clerks ($140 K)
• Media centers (libraries) would not be available to students unless
supervised by the media specialist or the classroom teacher which
will reduce classroom instruction time
• Media specialist (librarian) instructional time reduced
• Limited access to materials and other media services
• Teacher would be accountable for student checkout of media
materials
• Inventory of books and materials along with general organization
and management of the media centers will likely become spread out
and lost when not monitored closely
8/16/2007
10
• Reduced access to library books, materials because librarians would
have to reshelf, repair, process all books and materials
• Eliminate laptop computer checkout to students at high school
• Potential loss of quality media staff and their families to the
community
Reduce Elementary Library (Media) Specialists by 1.0 FTE ($55 K)
• With one Media Specialist(librarian) to be shared among 4 buildings
100% of time would be used to support the integrity of the media
centers, leaving no time for student instruction
• Media specialist(librarian) would not be available to support classroom
instruction on the use of research and media technology skills
• Access to materials and media support for teachers would impact
achievement
o No media support for research
o Teachers would deliver all technology and media curriculum
• Inventory of books and materials will likely become spread out and lost
when not monitored closely
• Potential loss of quality media staff and family to the community
Reduce High School Library (Media) Specialist to .5 and Clerk to .5
($40 K)• Students would have limited access to the media center because of
lack of supervision
• Access to materials and other media services would be very limited
• Media Specialist instruction time and other media services to staff
and students would be limited
• Inventory of books and materials along with general organization
and management of media center will become spread out and lost
when not monitored closely
• Laptop computer checkout program for ALHS students eliminated
• Potential loss of quality media staff and their families to the
community
Reduce district library (media) book and supply budget by 50% ($75 K)
• This would be a short term reduction, as it would be
difficult/impossible to sustain this reduction over time
• Negative overall impact to student achievement, as it’s difficult to
meet all students’ needs when resources become limited
• Resource availability to students would not remain current
This is akin to a "Chinese Menu"--Pick "One from column A, and one from column B". More evidence of "Scare the kiddies"? It's getting close to Halloween!
Posted by Liberal on Oct. 11 2007,8:43 pm
QUOTE
Reduce Elementary Library (Media) Specialists by 1.0 FTE ($55 K)
WTF? $55K for one elementary school librarian? I should have paid more attention to the Dewey Decimal system in school.
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 11 2007,10:59 pm
Yes, it actually does pay to go to college.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 12 2007,12:04 am
It was a nice story from the vice-chairmans daughter of the schoolboard. The problem with it is that there has been no "for sures" mentioned in any district material, so I once again believe that the facts are just not straight from TEAM and their representatives.The district hasn't said they will cut Math Masters, the district hasn't said there will be no more science fairs, and the district never said they would close a library if this referendum doesn't go through.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 12 2007,12:29 am
QUOTE
I just think that Albert Lea High School can no longer be all things to all people.
I think that ALHS can't keep sending the message that they are all things to all students.
IMHO, I think ALHS is a typical "common in society" type of high school. It mostly serves the top 25% and the bottom 25%, which leaves 50% of students to figure things out on their own.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 12 2007,12:31 am
QUOTE
WTF? $55K for one elementary school librarian? I should have paid more attention to the Dewey Decimal system in school.
Posted by whatshappening on Oct. 12 2007,3:29 am
(jimhanson @ Oct. 11 2007,7:04 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
"Without a successful referendum vote, the majority of the library staff will be cut and the libraries will possibly not even be open during school hours."
Nobody is proposing to "close the libraries". The Board listed SEVERAL scenarios--demonstrating full or partial closure--note they propose BOTH. From the School Board possible closure site: Eliminate all 6 Library (Media) Clerks ($140 K)
• Media centers (libraries) would not be available to students unless
supervised by the media specialist or the classroom teacher which
will reduce classroom instruction time
• Media specialist (librarian) instructional time reduced
• Limited access to materials and other media services
• Teacher would be accountable for student checkout of media
materials
• Inventory of books and materials along with general organization
and management of the media centers will likely become spread out
and lost when not monitored closely
8/16/2007
10
• Reduced access to library books, materials because librarians would
have to reshelf, repair, process all books and materials
• Eliminate laptop computer checkout to students at high school
• Potential loss of quality media staff and their families to the
community
The School District and the School Board need to really take a long look at how they present themselves and this issue. They need to give out more concise information on what they feel they need dollar wise, how (in a detailed break down) they plan to use it and why they feel it is best spent that way. If I were to go to a bank and ask for a loan to start or upgrade a business I would have to have a detailed long and short term plan showing how the money was to be used. Along with a projected plan on local trends and need for my product, ect. The lending institution would closely look at this and weigh my projected plans on succeeding vs not and base giving me the $$$ on that. I think we as tax payers have the same right as the bank!! The school district needs to look at and treat themselves as a business- one of educating our children. They need to weigh benefit vs cost of some of the list of items they think this district needs. As a business owner they might not have all the funds they need to do things as THEY want. As such they need then to look at other assets they have and how best to use them. The main product here is of giving the "right" necessary information to the child so they can be a productive successful individual and function in society.
I personally feel most teacher give it their all but they too can only work with what they have. Many give extra "free" hours and $$$ for supplies to help their students as the schools say they really don't have extra funds meet this need completely. This is a common complaint to all schools/ teachers it seems.... Here's some ideas school district/board based on one of your "possible" cuts, remember YOU HAVE GREAT ASSETS- our kids, use them as you teach them!!!!!
[b]Eliminate all 6 Library (Media) Clerks savings- ($140 K) oh my....well what assets do we have to cover this loss? How about letting the school building STUDENTS (supervised by the media specialist) volunteer to come in a day or week before the year starts and learn how to run, check in/out items, replace books , ect. This frees up the media specialist to only the most basic tasks and oh my..... the student learn a new skill, builds self respect, responsibility, and has something to be able to use on a job resume latter. Looks like it could be a win-win for this company. Many will say the kids won't or can't do this but I say BET THEY CAN and will if given the chance!
$$$ for supplies to help their students: Teachers from around the whole area/state could form their own buying co-op and order and buy supplies at wholesale prices, the more you buy the cheaper the price. Yes someone will have to start the group and run the accounts but there could be ways to make it easy after you get the main thing going- Do it as a one time thing at the beginning of the year, all pay x$$$ and get x amount of supplies. This could be a good thing for the district to look in too as to how do they buy their supplies, ect?
Well nuff of that... just some ideas as to how a good business might do things if they had a fixed income. And yes School District 241 YOU DO have a fixed income. I have to say based on the information you have given to me on your cost projection/plans that I have seen so far; that this bank is closed! Please feel free to come back when you have a more detailed business plan.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 12 2007,8:31 am
(Liberal @ Oct. 11 2007,8:43 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Reduce Elementary Library (Media) Specialists by 1.0 FTE ($55 K)
WTF? $55K for one elementary school librarian? I should have paid more attention to the Dewey Decimal system in school.
Does that 55k include health benefits? Maybe I am behind times here, but I did not think that most teachers made that much. They are always complaining about teacher pay so I just assumed. 55k is pretty good pay for Albert Lea, if fact it is on the high end isn't it?
Speaking of health benefits etc. have they proposed any cuts to or increasing the cost of health benefits to employees. If you ask around that seems to be happening quite a bit for other businesses. Insurance companies have recently raised premiums up to 30%.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 12 2007,8:32 am
BTW - how many laptop computers are available for students to check out and take home.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 12 2007,9:46 am
QUOTE
The School District and the School Board need to really take a long look at how they present themselves and this issue. They need to give out more concise information on what they feel they need dollar wise, how (in a detailed break down) they plan to use it and why they feel it is best spent that way. If I were to go to a bank and ask for a loan to start or upgrade a business I would have to have a detailed long and short term plan showing how the money was to be used. Along with a projected plan on local trends and need for my product, ect. The lending institution would closely look at this and weigh my projected plans on succeeding vs not and base giving me the $$$ on that. I think we as tax payers have the same right as the bank!! The school district needs to look at and treat themselves as a business- one of educating our children. They need to weigh benefit vs cost of some of the list of items they think this district needs. As a business owner they might not have all the funds they need to do things as THEY want.
I absolutely agree with you! We as a community; citizens, parents, property & business owners, family, etc... need to ask ourselves if this referendum is the type of business plan that proves a better opportunity will exist for all students to improve in academic achievement. My view is that it does not. Instead, I am being told generalized statements..."Do it for the kids. Support the community. Passing this gives our students the quality of education they deserve." What I value in quality of education is not the same as the districts, but how could it be when only a few are getting to decide the value of each priority and how funding dollars are spent to meet that. For example, I would much rather support a referendum that values getting more students to graduate with a 12th grade or better math achievement level. It is difficult for me to understand that I should support a referendum that states it would be cost effective to contract out custodial services, but the value in continuing to fund that through this referendum is determined by a potential "negative" affect on school pride.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 12 2007,12:05 pm
To continue with your "Bank Loan" analogy:How far do you suppose you would get with your banker if you went in and applied for a loan:
When the banker asks what you want it for, you reply "Oh, nothing, really. I just want to keep things just the way they are. I'm in financial trouble, and I NEED this money for "things". I don't want to give up anything I already have."
When he asks you what you are going to spend the money on, you refuse to tell him.
When he asks what things you are going to cut to repay the loan, you refuse to tell him.
When he asks you what assets you are going to keep, and what you intend to sell, you refuse to tell him.
When he asks how you came to the amount you are requesting, you tell him "My immediate family decided that's how much money we would like to have to continue our lifestyle. Your only involvement is to say Yes or No to my request."
When he asks how you are going to REPAY the loan, you tell him "I'm going to force my NEIGHBORS to pay for it."
Your banker gently suggests that perhaps you don't need his services after all--that you COULD live within your means--cut out some "nice to have" amenities--maybe sell off your condo that is excess to your needs. You respond by telling him that he doesn't care about your kids.
Your banker points out that you have not done what you said you were going to do in the past. In prior years, you said that if you build a new house, that people would think better of you, and want to be your neighbors. That didn't come to pass. He reminds you that you promised that your kids would do better in school if they had a new house--but that didn't come to pass, either. You promised that if you built a new house, that your kids wouldn't be disruptive to traffic in the neighborhood--but they were. You promised SEVERAL times that if you were just given money, that your kids would be smarter, that they would be more 'well-rounded'--that they would 'like themselves better'. None of these came to pass. You are shocked that he no longer believes you.
When the banker turns you down, you curse at him for being an "insensitive lout" "incapable of understanding", and "uncaring"--and vow to come back NEXT year--WITH THE SAME PLAN.
Posted by albertleamom on Oct. 12 2007,1:48 pm
an intresting read< http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/2001/sept01/referendum.shtml >
hope that link works
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 12 2007,1:57 pm
So many parallels with this referendum that it is scary!
Posted by Ginkgo on Oct. 12 2007,5:17 pm
Wow, run a school like a business. There is no comparing the two. A business makes a profit (sometimes a loss) on sales of product or services that they charge for. They can raise prices when they want (sometimes by adding more value). They don't have to beg the public for money. Children are different than products or services. You can run a school efficently as possible. As soon as you start thinking that a child is a product, you are in trouble. A child takes 12 to 13 years in education. The future we are preparing a kindergarden for is therefore 12 to 13 years in the future. We have to prepare students for all fields and occupations, not the narrow focus that business can do. The two are just not the same, it is an analogy that is not valid.The list that the school board published is areas that they are looking at to be able to balance the budget. Last year they made a specific list that they planned to cut if the referendum failed, and they made the cuts. Then you complained that they were treats. Which is it, you can't have it both ways.
Just because you talked to a school board member and they obviously disagreed with you, dosn't mean that they didn't listen. Maybe your case was weak, maybe it would not work, maybe you were wrong. So, do a better job of evidence to support your suggestions. We cannot be experimenting with our childrens education. We can make changes as they are proven. Too often it is the state legislature that makes big changes that crumble against the realities of life. A friend that was a teacher for over 30 years told me that the state had institued 14 different educational programs during her career. Things like "Outcome based Education". Lots of paper work for the districts and teachers, but no long term benefit for the kids.
I said it before, try to help make a difference in a kids life. It can be your own kid. Sit down and help them with their homework. But do something possitive to affect change. Complaining will not make change happen.
Posted by january on Oct. 12 2007,5:36 pm
gingo:Do not preach to others how to spend their time or what you think they should be doing.
You know nothing about the persons posting here and their personal lives.
You are making broad generalizations that do not help your case.
My children are highly educated and very successful.
My oldest has several degrees and went to school and college in Europe. She has had professional positions that have exposed her to some of the most powerful people in the world.
My youngest graduated first in her majors in college and is a successful professional as well.
My children did not graduate from ALHS but elsewhere, so we have a different perspective than many of those individuals whose children have only attended District 241 schools.
Expectations have always been very high for my children.
High expectations do not hurt us, they help us.
There are a group of individuals that want more for our/your children.
We believe District 241 can do better. Better for all children.
We believe District 241 does not have to be a failing district.
If it is negative to have high expectations and believe our children can achieve those expectations than I am very negative.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 12 2007,7:15 pm
QUOTE
The list that the school board published is areas that they are looking at to be able to balance the budget. Last year they made a specific list that they planned to cut if the referendum failed, and they made the cuts. Then you complained that they were treats. Which is it, you can't have it both ways.
Are you implying that EVERYONE has some input into the lists, the priorities and value of importance and how the "Yes" vote is campaigned??? What the board chooses to prioritize and inform the public of is THEIR choice and no one else's.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 13 2007,11:47 am
QUOTE
We cannot be experimenting with our childrens education. We can make changes as they are proven. Too often it is the state legislature that makes big changes that crumble against the realities of life. A friend that was a teacher for over 30 years told me that the state had institued 14 different educational programs during her career. Things like "Outcome based Education". Lots of paper work for the districts and teachers, but no long term benefit for the kids.
That IS one of the problems with public schools--a lot of unproven theories, a lot of experimentations, a different "Theory du jour" every year.The trouble is--those do NOT originate in the State Legislature. I don't think a legislator rises to promote his/her own theory. No, the disproven and discredited theories originate in none other than the NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION.
You've got to ask yourself--"How did we GET this way?" It is from following every feel-good, Politically Correct theory advanced by perhaps the most powerful lobby in the United States--the NEA--with a membership of 2.7 million, and a budget of over $1 BILLION.
THESE are the people that brought us "NEW MATH", "Hate Crimes", "hate art", "self-esteem", "bullying", "revisionist history", massive doping of kids with "ADHD", and sex education for 3rd graders. These are the people that advocated textbooks and curriculae that no longer think it is neccessary to teach English, spelling, "Social Studies", basic arithmetic, or any history earlier than the last 50 years.
The predictable result? Our kids continue to fall in scholastic rankings relative to other countries. They can't do math without a calculator, (many can't make change), have no concept of history or the events that made the world the way it is today (they think History started on their birthday)
, can't spell or construct a coherent sentence (perhaps English should be taught as a FOREIGN language in our schools). In a globalized world, kids do not learn enough about the rest of the world--not only are they not have knowledge of other countries, they are "challenged" to find most countries (or continents) on a globe. They don't know how their government works, have no knowledge of the Constitution (except that they have real or imagined "rights") that they know how to assert. They rail against "Big business"--not even realizing that it is business of ALL sizes that drives our economy.Until we return to proven methods of teaching, and demanding at least MINIMUM standards instead of "feel good" education, education in the U.S. will continue to slide. Caring parents will increasingly make sacrifices and forego the tax money they have already paid into public schools (how sad is THAT--throwing away a product you have already PAID for), and enroll their kids in private schools--now becoming a GROWTH INDUSTRY.
Posted by january on Oct. 13 2007,4:00 pm
Jim Hanson, excellent article.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 13 2007,8:08 pm
QUOTE
Editor’s note: This is the third in a four-part series on the Nov. 6 school levy referendum in Albert Lea.
Imagine, if you will, a school system without the things that enhance the school experience — no extracurricular activities, no sports, no classes outside of the traditional three R’s: reading, ’riting and ’rithmetic.
That could be the picture of the Albert Lea School District if the operating levy referendum fails Nov. 6. Is that a school district that can function? Is that a school district that the community wants to see?
< tribune article >
What can I say? Imagine, if you will, a school system without the things that enhance the school experience — no extracurricular activities, no sports, no classes outside of the traditional three R’s: reading, ’riting and ’rithmetic.
That could be the picture of the Albert Lea School District if the operating levy referendum fails Nov. 6. Is that a school district that can function? Is that a school district that the community wants to see?
< tribune article >
Posted by whatshappening on Oct. 13 2007,11:02 pm
(Ginkgo @ Oct. 12 2007,5:17 pm)
QUOTE
Wow, run a school like a business. There is no comparing the two. A business makes a profit (sometimes a loss) on sales of product or services that they charge for. They can raise prices when they want (sometimes by adding more value). They don't have to beg the public for money. Children are different than products or services. You can run a school efficently as possible. As soon as you start thinking that a child is a product, you are in trouble. A child takes 12 to 13 years in education. The future we are preparing a kindergarden for is therefore 12 to 13 years in the future. We have to prepare students for all fields and occupations, not the narrow focus that business can do. The two are just not the same, it is an analogy that is not valid.
The list that the school board published is areas that they are looking at to be able to balance the budget. Last year they made a specific list that they planned to cut if the referendum failed, and they made the cuts. Then you complained that they were treats. Which is it, you can't have it both ways.
Just because you talked to a school board member and they obviously disagreed with you, dosn't mean that they didn't listen. Maybe your case was weak, maybe it would not work, maybe you were wrong. So, do a better job of evidence to support your suggestions. We cannot be experimenting with our childrens education. We can make changes as they are proven. Too often it is the state legislature that makes big changes that crumble against the realities of life. A friend that was a teacher for over 30 years told me that the state had institued 14 different educational programs during her career. Things like "Outcome based Education". Lots of paper work for the districts and teachers, but no long term benefit for the kids.
I said it before, try to help make a difference in a kids life. It can be your own kid. Sit down and help them with their homework. But do something possitive to affect change. Complaining will not make change happen.
The list that the school board published is areas that they are looking at to be able to balance the budget. Last year they made a specific list that they planned to cut if the referendum failed, and they made the cuts. Then you complained that they were treats. Which is it, you can't have it both ways.
Just because you talked to a school board member and they obviously disagreed with you, dosn't mean that they didn't listen. Maybe your case was weak, maybe it would not work, maybe you were wrong. So, do a better job of evidence to support your suggestions. We cannot be experimenting with our childrens education. We can make changes as they are proven. Too often it is the state legislature that makes big changes that crumble against the realities of life. A friend that was a teacher for over 30 years told me that the state had institued 14 different educational programs during her career. Things like "Outcome based Education". Lots of paper work for the districts and teachers, but no long term benefit for the kids.
I said it before, try to help make a difference in a kids life. It can be your own kid. Sit down and help them with their homework. But do something possitive to affect change. Complaining will not make change happen.
Yes the running of School District 241 IS a business. The profit is a well rounded educated productive child. The investment is long-12 years. The loss is the business taking the funds and using them in a less than cost efficient manner to produce a poor product. Everyone suffers. We as tax payers want that "value" added to our product. We want to see where our $$$ are going, why (in detail) the District is spending our investment the way it is, why they feel it will be of benefit to me the long term investor. Will it add value to the finial product, the child. I want to see not just what they "might" or "plan" to cut but WHY they feel they have to do this.
We ARE being charged for this product- thru taxes, and have the right to expect a good accounting of where our investment (in detail) is being spent. What the short/long term results will be. Is it cost effective...will it add "value" to the majority of the product. If not what is the possible alternatives to make it so.
Do you think by the School District asking for extra funds (taxes) by referendum that they aren't trying to "raise their price" to produce this product- a great education? I see it as YES THEY ARE and I personally feel I as a investor have the right to a full accounting as to how and why they need the extra funds. My funds they are asking me to give over and above. I'm not saying that they don't need them. I just feel I need to see where and why they do. If they can show me that it will be of benefit to the finial product I'm all for it!!! Show me the data is all I'm asking, help me understand so I can make a informed decision on the matter.
I have no problem with programs being cut... the problem is the school board is telling me what they MIGHT do not WHY they are doing it. If a program is not cost effective (to few student use vs cost to produce, then yes it would need to be on the list to cut) but I would like to see the data myself to be able to understand and make a informed decision. If I was a business and I had a product that wasn't giving me the results it should and kept costing me funds I would sure be looking at other options/data to improve it don't you think. We than as a informed public will understand what's at risk and how the decisions are being made by the District. We than can go back to our kids and explain how and why and give examples to them, not just let them hear others tell them that it happened because your grand/parents didn't vote yes and support the referendum. We need to let them know that as a group that even if this referendum did/didn't pass it had to with personal finance/funding and that it's not that the people of this community don't care or support them. Let's make our kids feel secure in the fact we support them and give them other options for places to find programs to meet the needs that the school might not be able to fill at this time. There are lots of other options to fill the elective needs if some programs are cut- even if the referendum passes. Your right we as a community have to fill the gaps. I don't feel I was complaining at all. I was asking the School District for more detailed information to make a informed choice not to just tell me as they have in the past what they "might" or "will have to do" if I don't give them $$$$ at this time. I don't think grand/parent really has a problem with giving the district money if they need it. It's they way they are presenting their case in asking for it. We all have homes, with personal budgets that we have to live within and the kids may even have a allowance. We have to account for our money to know where and why we spend like we do. If we can't make it on what we have we then need to make cuts. Is it to much to ask of the district to tell us how and why they spend ours/theirs like they do?
Posted by january on Oct. 14 2007,1:08 pm
Whatshappening;Tthat is the best post I have read in a long, long time.
Please send in to AL Tribune or be a guest columnist. Or at the very least send into for publication to letters to editor.
Your point is intelligent, informed, and very positive.
It totally dispels the myth that only the pro-referendum folks are "FOR the kids.
Thank you
Posted by bianca on Oct. 14 2007,9:33 pm
Learn=Lets Educate and Accept Responsibilty Now is a group of citizens who want accountability and choice in our spending and education in District 241.We want to turn this bill down this November to revisit next year in order to get choices for our tax dollars and the education of our children and not just accept that a few are making choices that effect all of our students, wants and needs, and not just a few.
If you would like to play a part please pm.
The district has failed the AYP reporting for three years with no goal of what the district is going to do to remedy this. Please take a look at the repercussions for schools that don't make the mark on the fourth and fifth years that are quickly coming up in our case. and the school district continues to gloss right over.
If a Title I school fails to make adequate progress for three consecutive years, (here's where we are now.) the school will also be required to offer “supplemental education services” chosen by parents, including private tutoring. These schools and districts must reserve up to 20 percent of Title I funds to cover the cost of tutoring, transportation and other supplemental services.
If a Title I school fails to make adequate progress for four consecutive years, the district must implement “corrective actions,” such as replacing staff or adopting new curriculum.
If a Title I school does not make adequate progress for five consecutive years, it would be identified for reconstitution. It would be required to set up an alternative governance structure, such as reopening as a charter school or turning operation of the school over to the state.
NCLB resources
Education Minnesota NCLB page
Posted by january on Oct. 15 2007,8:19 am
Bianca:I feel that with "Whatshappenings" post and the philosophy of requiring the Board/Administration to be accountable and let the public know EXACTLY what is going to be cut, changed etc. instead of broad generalizations that tell the public nothing and the name LEARN= Let's Educate and Accept Responsiblity Now, your group is certainly on the right track.
Long gone are the days when Boards and Administration were given free reign.
Long gone are the days when Boards and Administration were not accountable to the tax payers.
No one disputes that TEAM wants positives for the kids.
No one should dispute that what LEARN wants is positives for the kids.
The only difference is that LEARN members are asking for specifics, definitives, potential alternatives (as Whats Happening eluded to in his post).
LEARN members are asking, just like shareholders in a company would for answers.
LEARN has taken this to another level. It is an exceptional learning experience for our kids. We as parents teach our children to ask questions.
We do not want them to blindly follow others.
We and hopefully, our children too, expect accountability and responsiblity.
I believe that as a community we can come together for the sake of the kids and together we can all LEARN !
Posted by january on Oct. 15 2007,1:54 pm
Bianca,I once again am having trouble with my computer and pm. I can receive them but can't seem to get them out to others.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 16 2007,10:17 am
Is it just me or is the propaganda that TEAM has been inundating the public with lately trying to make a correlation with the referendum and the downfall of Albert Lea. Aren't they overstating it a bit.
There have been statements in some of the posts that the lack of funding for the schools is the reason that doctors are not staying at the medical center. Is there any proof of that? I heard that doctors are leaving because of the way that the hospital administration wants to run the medical center.
As far as I am concerned TEAM is using backwards reasoning. We are not going to attract new businesses to Albert Lea because we pass a referendum. People are not going to move here because we pass a referendum. People will move here because we have good paying jobs with benefits. Those good paying jobs are not going to build here if there is not the workforce to support it. So what is the city doing to attract new businesses to Albert Lea? Put up new lights - very dim lights.
I think it it totally unreasonable for TEAM to imply that the referendum will save our city. These issues are the same thing when they wanted the new school and new courthouse and I don't notice any significant changes but here they are again with their hands out for more.
And for somone to suggest that outsourcing janitorial staff would be demoralizing - what exactly do they mean. Maybe they should outsource the administration. And this I know for sure there are several teachers who are not performing to standards set. I am sure everyone who has kids at school knows one or two. While most of the teachers are great not all of them are and I am a firm believer is you do the job you are required to do and to the best of your ability. I don't care if you have a contract, tenure or whatever. Nobody should be able to keep a job that they are unwilling or unable to do. Doesn't work other places and it especially should not allowed in our schools.
What cuts are they proposing to the administration staff - and I mean from top on down?
Posted by busybee on Oct. 16 2007,10:57 am
QUOTE
Learn=Lets Educate and Accept Responsibilty Now is a group of citizens who want accountability and choice in our spending and education in District 241.
And...once again...I know, it's my same old, same old, let's think "outside the box" in educational philosophy concepts...
< Making schools work...KIPP >
Have a great day everyone and remember...Greatness is earned, not given.
Posted by medic on Oct. 16 2007,4:53 pm
If TEAM and 241 are so sure that this is going to save our city, why dont they give us a return on our money when it does nothing? If I buy a product and it does not work I take back and get my money back. Is that not what TEAM and241 are trying to do? Sell us some goods?
Posted by usmcr on Oct. 17 2007,8:17 am
NY shouldn't aid schools spending $64,000/pupil: studyNEW YORK (Reuters) - It's a new twist on the $64,000 question. That's what the richest schools in New York state spend per pupil.
And now the nonprofit Citizens Budget Commission says the state should phase out funds for the wealthiest public schools, or the top 10 percent, some of which spend $64,000 per student -- six times what the bottom 10 percent spend -- in a report released on Tuesday.
Though Democratic Gov. Eliot Spitzer, in his first budget, tried to make school funding more fair, his compromise with the legislature raised how much the richest schools got, according to the report by the Citizens Budget Commission.
All schools got at least a 3 percent increase in their base grants, increasing the total cost to $329 million from $149 million.
The 68 richest school districts raked in $229 million, the nonpartisan group's report said.
"The disparities in local wealth lead to significant per pupil spending inequities," it said, explaining that the richest school districts could do without state dollars because their tax base was 30 times more than the $129,694-per-pupil valuation in the poorest 10 percent of the state's school districts.
New York's $121 billion budget is the nation's third biggest, only topped by the federal government and California. Spitzer noted New York relies on Wall Street for 20 percent of its tax revenues. And banks and brokerages are slashing profit forecasts and thousands of jobs due to the mortgage morass.
Like many states, New York has long struggled to equalize spending between schools, a battle that pits its downtrodden urban and rural upstate areas against the well-to-do suburbs that ring New York City. It was only last year that the state agreed to give New York City billions more dollars to end a long court battle over claims its schools were short changed.
perhaps it is about time for the MN state politicians to step up to the plate & straighten out this funding situation!
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 17 2007,1:42 pm
I wonder why the Tribune hasn't polled people on how they will vote? The last attempt at a referendum, the Tribune did an online poll on their home page.
Posted by Botto 82 on Oct. 17 2007,2:47 pm
Somebody asked them no to?
Posted by katlade on Oct. 17 2007,3:50 pm
Maybe the trib does not want to have the poll trend yes so all the no's will come out in force.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 18 2007,6:07 am
With 2-4 articles on any given day supporting the referendum. The Tribune has decided where they think everyone should stand.I couldn't believe when Schmeltzer had the audacity to print in his article that they were showing both sides. Say what?!
Posted by bianca on Oct. 18 2007,6:37 am
In regard to schools putting up posters, hosting events, or using public schools for other political purposes, each individual school district usually has its own policies regarding political campaigns and activity at the school and the use of school grounds, time, or resources, and those policies are all enforced at the local level.A little research was done on ISD #241’s web site, looking for school board policies that may relate to this issue.
Policy 8020 relates to the “Use of Instructional Settings to Promote Private Interests” and states:
“The School Board affirms its belief that instructional settings shall be totally dedicated to appropriate teaching and learning and such processes shall relate to approved school programs and curricula.
Therefore, it is the policy of the School Board that school employees shall not use instructional settings as a forum to discuss or develop support in the areas of labor disputes, collective bargaining, work stoppages and/or other matters relating to conditions of employment.
The School Board further prohibits disruptive display of buttons, signs, insignia, symbols, or other materials by school employees in school buildings related to labor disputes or conditions of employment since such displays tend to disrupt instruction.”
Now sit down with your child/grandchild/teen co-worker/ and ask them how many assignments they have had or discussions they have had on the referendum in classes. It's just not right.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 18 2007,8:54 am
I received a message recently that all the administrators are right now as the referendum is being decided on negotiating for a 2% salary increase.The person didn't leave their name but has anyone else heard this? And why, if the administration is so concerned about spending and cuts would they even consider this at this time knowing that other employees such as custodians, teachers, etc. "could" possibly (we don't know, mind you, because they speak in "coulds") lose their jobs?
I can't believe the Tribune doesn't report on these types of things. I mean why shouldn't Prescott and company receive 2% more than he already makes. It's not like he's already being paid $20,000 more than the state average for superintendents.
The editorial last night said 500 jobs have been created
yet they didn't specify what they were or how much they pay. Hmmmmm, do you think that information was left out for a reason? Just a thought.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 18 2007,12:43 pm
Bianca,What does voting no to referendum get us?
If we lose what happens?
It just seems we will be further behind and have to catch up!
Is losing really what we want?
Just wondering about your "no for now" methodology.
I am still waiting for an anwer?
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 18 2007,1:14 pm
I don't think voting FOR the referendum is a guarantee of "better education". I don't think that voting against the referendum is "against the kids".
QUOTE
LEARN--"Let's Educate and Accept Responsibility Now" says
We do not think that a flawed bill should be supported--especially a bill that will reach out far into the future. Instead, we would like to turn down a bad bill now, and come up with a better one.
A PROPOSED COMMUNITY DIALOGUE WOULD INVOLVE AT LEAST THE FOLLOWING ITEMS:
A discussion of whether to keep or cut one elementary school. By the Administration's own proposals, keeping an additional school open is a million dollar a year proposition. We have to ask--"What ELSE could we do with that money to achieve excellence?" Taxpayers may very well figure that having an additional school open IS the best use of a million dollars, and if that is the decision, so be it. Taxpayers SHOULD be able to have input.
Comparative choices. Go to the school board website--there are a NUMBER of cost-saving possibilities there. Example: we can save a substantial amount of money by going to contract janitorial services instead of District employees--at no detriment to scholastic achievement. Would we rather have our own janitors, or have our children walking to school? A similar amount of money can be saved by contract secretarial services. Would we rather have our "own" secretaries, or offer additional classes or options?
Priorities. Set the budget, and let the PUBLIC decide the priorities. Nobody wants to see their program cut, but if it comes down to scholastics OR athletics--it should not be hard to make a choice. We owe our children an EDUCATION, not a chance to play sports.
Top down. People making budget cuts usually start at the bottom, and work up. It takes a LOT of cuts at low levels to equal ONE cut at high levels. We don't see much in the way of Administrative cuts.
Guarantees. The Administration has not been forthcoming in what they say they will do with the money--only general platitudes of "improve education" or "maintain programs." There are no guarantees that they will not cut programs if given the money. There are no guarantees that test scores will improve if given the money--their record of delivering on promises is spotty at best. We would like to see the Administration sign a "If you give us this money, HERE is what we will do with it." If they don't produce, their job is on the line.
Options. We feel the Administration has over-reached by requesting over $2 million dollars. The operating budget of the school district (everything except the capital costs of paying for and maintaining schools) is $31,000,000. Two million dollars represents slightly over 6% that needs to be cut--hardly "big cutbacks in programs"--businesses do it all the time. That said, we feel that there is a "middle ground"--after developing a dialogue, setting priorities, considering options, and getting guarantees, perhaps the best thing would be to propose a "Give us One Million in cuts, we'll give you one Million in levy taxes." That is a win for both sides--fiscal responsibility, money to sustain programs, community involvement.
PLEASE don't tell us that this can be accomplished by going to school board meetings. To do so is ONE voice addressing the board. It is of little consequence--their eyes glaze over, they thank us for "input"--then do as they please, anyway. HARDLY a "community dialogue."
We do not think that a flawed bill should be supported--especially a bill that will reach out far into the future. Instead, we would like to turn down a bad bill now, and come up with a better one.
A PROPOSED COMMUNITY DIALOGUE WOULD INVOLVE AT LEAST THE FOLLOWING ITEMS:
A discussion of whether to keep or cut one elementary school. By the Administration's own proposals, keeping an additional school open is a million dollar a year proposition. We have to ask--"What ELSE could we do with that money to achieve excellence?" Taxpayers may very well figure that having an additional school open IS the best use of a million dollars, and if that is the decision, so be it. Taxpayers SHOULD be able to have input.
Comparative choices. Go to the school board website--there are a NUMBER of cost-saving possibilities there. Example: we can save a substantial amount of money by going to contract janitorial services instead of District employees--at no detriment to scholastic achievement. Would we rather have our own janitors, or have our children walking to school? A similar amount of money can be saved by contract secretarial services. Would we rather have our "own" secretaries, or offer additional classes or options?
Priorities. Set the budget, and let the PUBLIC decide the priorities. Nobody wants to see their program cut, but if it comes down to scholastics OR athletics--it should not be hard to make a choice. We owe our children an EDUCATION, not a chance to play sports.
Top down. People making budget cuts usually start at the bottom, and work up. It takes a LOT of cuts at low levels to equal ONE cut at high levels. We don't see much in the way of Administrative cuts.
Guarantees. The Administration has not been forthcoming in what they say they will do with the money--only general platitudes of "improve education" or "maintain programs." There are no guarantees that they will not cut programs if given the money. There are no guarantees that test scores will improve if given the money--their record of delivering on promises is spotty at best. We would like to see the Administration sign a "If you give us this money, HERE is what we will do with it." If they don't produce, their job is on the line.
Options. We feel the Administration has over-reached by requesting over $2 million dollars. The operating budget of the school district (everything except the capital costs of paying for and maintaining schools) is $31,000,000. Two million dollars represents slightly over 6% that needs to be cut--hardly "big cutbacks in programs"--businesses do it all the time. That said, we feel that there is a "middle ground"--after developing a dialogue, setting priorities, considering options, and getting guarantees, perhaps the best thing would be to propose a "Give us One Million in cuts, we'll give you one Million in levy taxes." That is a win for both sides--fiscal responsibility, money to sustain programs, community involvement.
PLEASE don't tell us that this can be accomplished by going to school board meetings. To do so is ONE voice addressing the board. It is of little consequence--their eyes glaze over, they thank us for "input"--then do as they please, anyway. HARDLY a "community dialogue."
LEARN is about community involvement, about making choices, about accountability. I don't see involvement, choices, or accountability in the Administration/TEAM proposal.
Your only choice is to vote YES or NO. In this case, vote NO, and send them back to come back with something better.
Posted by Common Citizen on Oct. 18 2007,1:38 pm
(whatthe @ Oct. 18 2007,12:43 pm)
QUOTE
Bianca,
What does voting no to referendum get us?
If we lose what happens?
It just seems we will be further behind and have to catch up!
Is losing really what we want?
Just wondering about your "no for now" methodology.
I am still waiting for an anwer?
What does voting no to referendum get us?
If we lose what happens?
It just seems we will be further behind and have to catch up!
Is losing really what we want?
Just wondering about your "no for now" methodology.
I am still waiting for an anwer?
I don't get why people believe that $=education=prokids and that $ is only the answer to improving the education of the kids?
If you all care about the kids how about teaching them the definition of fiscal responsibilty and how sometimes you may have to operate within a certain a budget, and by doing this, it is possible to still have a quality education.
Oh wait, we live in a nanny state and we're just drone's...
Posted by busybee on Oct. 18 2007,6:00 pm
QUOTE
What does voting no to referendum get us?
If we lose what happens?
It just seems we will be further behind and have to catch up!
Is losing really what we want?
Just wondering about your "no for now" methodology.
I am still waiting for an anwer?
If we lose what happens?
It just seems we will be further behind and have to catch up!
Is losing really what we want?
Just wondering about your "no for now" methodology.
I am still waiting for an anwer?
Going to switch this a little bit because I know I have already responded to these questions, as have others...please share what you are certain is going to happen in the future of District 241 students if the referendum passes.
What does voting yes to a referendum get us?
If we win what happens?
It just seems we will be further behind and have to catch up!
Is winning really what we want?
Just wondering about your "vote yes now" methodology.
Posted by Spidey on Oct. 18 2007,6:05 pm
I just received a survey phone call asking about my vote on the ref. I questioned him more then he questioned me. This was a call from the "school". Where do the funds come from for these solicitations? Or ... are they volunteers? No answers except that they were calling on the schools behalf.Sorry, not very "newsie", but thought it was interesting never the less.
Anyone else getting these calls?
Posted by medic on Oct. 18 2007,6:28 pm
Busybee, if we dont vote yes now they have to plan on asking again next year. That seems to be their only other plan, I mean thats what 241 leader said last time this got voted down. Their lack of planning has put ALL of A.L. in this position. I hope 241 can LEARN from the mistakes they have made.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 18 2007,8:09 pm
Well I have been wrong before but I think it will pass 60 40. There seems to have been a shift in the past few weeks. In part it seems to be coming as a reaction to the anti letters in the paper. I know most of you hate the paper and thus don't read it but the letters have been interesting. I did not follow the entire letter but on guy seemed to say if more people were pro life we would not need the referendum. Keep up the fine work.
Posted by SimpleLife on Oct. 19 2007,8:23 am
(Spidey @ Oct. 18 2007,6:05 pm)
QUOTE
I just received a survey phone call asking about my vote on the ref. I questioned him more then he questioned me. This was a call from the "school". Where do the funds come from for these solicitations? Or ... are they volunteers? No answers except that they were calling on the schools behalf.
Sorry, not very "newsie", but thought it was interesting never the less.
Anyone else getting these calls?
Sorry, not very "newsie", but thought it was interesting never the less.
Anyone else getting these calls?
They're volunteers, I know a couple of people doing it.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 19 2007,9:56 am
I wonder if the DEMs will announce that they endorse the referendum also?
Posted by samsdad on Oct. 19 2007,12:23 pm
I have seen a "vote yes" ad by Rep. Brown(DFL) in thelocal fish wrap a couple of days ago. I know she use to be a teacher. I guess she got hoodwinked also.
Oh by the by. Did anyone have a pole taker come to your door this week? She didn't appear to like the "no"
response.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 19 2007,12:28 pm
Please, won't you give money to the school district. Administrators making 4 times what you do need more of your money. Please, won't you help the children?snivel snivel...
Posted by bianca on Oct. 20 2007,12:22 pm
Interesting column, but enough already on the guilt strategy. Column: Voting in elections is exercising U.S. freedom
By Tom Ehrhardt, Guest Column
Friday, October 19, 2007 9:21 AM CDT
The Albert Lea Tribune has done an excellent job covering past levy and bond referendums by making sure the public understands the important issues. Though the Tribune has endorsed past school levies, its coverage has been nonpartisan.
Nonpartisan? Are you serious?! On any given day there is AT LEAST 2-4 articles that are pro-referendum.
I have been involved in local referendums as a member of TEAM for the past two levies. Before that I worked on the bond levy for the new high school. My wife, Sally, is a school board member, and I have a seventh-grader at Southwest Middle School. For these and other reasons I have a vested interest in the outcome of this levy. In my opinion, everyone does.
The referendum levies both failed and passed are snapshots of the democratic process. A referendum is a powerful reminder of constitutional rights we have been granted, can exercise and as citizens are responsible for. A levy referendum is a beautiful thing:
With that is our constitutional rights to vote NO. So.... it's not that the citizens of Albert Lea that vote no are non-supportive people that don't like kids? Now TEAM has extended it to "we're not exercising our constitutional 'rights' and therefore are also un-american if we don't vote yes"?
A. I can help organize other people to advocate for passage of a cause I believe in.
B. TEAM can promote our views in newspapers, on the radio, with yard signs and billboards. We can go door to door with our vote Yes Yes message.
C. It’s an educational and spirited eight-week opportunity to meet and engage in discussions with people from different walks of life and with different viewpoints.
D. It’s an opportunity to work toward a common goal.
E. We can see the education of our children is a common good and that we have a tax responsibility and a social responsibility to local education.
Say what?! Didn't you JUST say it was our constitutional right to vote the way we want?
F. Win or lose, we are exercising our freedoms.
This regular exercise illustrates the absolute wonder of our democracy. Hopefully referendums are happening in many other cities and towns around this great country. When citizens become engaged in a campaign or cause it means they are making practical use of our liberties and freedoms. We can collectively look at ourselves and our school system (or candidates or cause) and freely make a choice. Try that in Myanmar, Vietnam, Sudan, Russia, Iran, Niger, North Korea, Tunisia, Yemen, China, Pakistan, Cuba, Nepal, etc., etc., etc.
That is exactly what we are looking for....a choice.
By the way, is Iran voting on a school referendum too? I can't believe they haven't covered that on Anderson Cooper 360.
You can choose to view TEAM’s efforts as propaganda. You can elect to view the efforts of our volunteer school board members as misguided. You can maintain your low opinion of school administrators. You can even imagine teachers and staff feathering their own nests with this levy.
[I]Now THAT's freedom. We can also choose to vote no without TEAM trying to make us feel guilty about OUR vote.
However, when you express opinions like this on the opinion page of the Albert Lea Tribune, please remember they are opinions, not facts. OK?
Ours are opinions but TEAM's are facts?! Seriously? All that we've been asking for are "facts" rather than what "could" happen.
The facts are both large and small business owners in Albert Lea support the referendum levy, even if it means more taxes. The Albert Lea-Freeborn County Chamber of Commerce is again endorsing passage of the levy. Pastors of our churches support it, working people, farmers, retired people, housewives, professionals, local politicians, students and many elderly citizens are in favor of this referendum. Currently they are joined together to campaign for a yes yes vote.
[I]Now you're pulling in religion? Excellent strategy....if all else fails we are also sinners if we "choose" to vote NO.
Someday District 241 may be able to levy taxes the way our townships, city, county, state and federal governments do. Until then I realize the school referendum levy is more valuable to our community because it requires passage by popular vote. The school referendum ensures citizens stay involved in the democratic process. And this is a good thing for our children, our community, our future.
I encourage you to vote yes yes on Nov. 6!
And LEARN encourages you to see through these yactics and send District 241 back to the collective bargaining table by giving the citizens of Albert Lea "choices" rather than threats of what "could" happen by voting NO!!!!
Tom Ehrhardt is on the Coordinating Committee for Together Education Achieves More.
Posted by GEOKARJO on Oct. 20 2007,1:57 pm
QUOTE
Local Referendum Debate Heats Up
(KAAL) -- In just a few weeks voters will head to the polls to vote on a number of issues.
And school referendums for districts that are unable to get enough funding from the state will be a popular one on the ballot...
ABC 6 NEWS Reporter Mary Taing tells us how the referendum debate in one district is heating up.
This will be the third time in five years the pine island school district will try to pass a referendum.
"There are education things that we're not able to do right now because of the facility and overcrowding is definitely contributing to that factor," says Jay Wobig.
The school board is asking for around 39-million dollars in property tax dollars to build a new high school... And update their current buildings to meet today's standards.
But not everyone is willing to fork over the money.
"People should vote no for this referendum because the city cannot afford it and neither can the district," says Charles Schmidt.
A newly formed group called Concerned PI has been very vocal...
Opposing the proposed referendum... And they say because of that they're now being targeted.
The founder of the group says they've been harassed through letters...
And dozens of their vote no signs stolen.... or ripped off.
"Right now I’ve got 4 business men in town who say they would put a sign up but they've been intimidated,” says Brian Hervey.
Steve Thompson.... Who wants the referendum says those on his side, have nothing to do with it.
"Certainly there's no one in our organization that would advocate that, we don't want this to become an us versus them situation because every body's voice needs to be heard," says Thompson.
Both sides say they hope the harassments will stop.
Maybe then... People living nearby will focus on learning more about both sides of the issue...and make an informed decision when they cast their ballot on November.
The Concerned PI group says they've filed a complaint with the sheriff's department regarding the missing signs...and the threats they have received.
(KAAL) -- In just a few weeks voters will head to the polls to vote on a number of issues.
And school referendums for districts that are unable to get enough funding from the state will be a popular one on the ballot...
ABC 6 NEWS Reporter Mary Taing tells us how the referendum debate in one district is heating up.
This will be the third time in five years the pine island school district will try to pass a referendum.
"There are education things that we're not able to do right now because of the facility and overcrowding is definitely contributing to that factor," says Jay Wobig.
The school board is asking for around 39-million dollars in property tax dollars to build a new high school... And update their current buildings to meet today's standards.
But not everyone is willing to fork over the money.
"People should vote no for this referendum because the city cannot afford it and neither can the district," says Charles Schmidt.
A newly formed group called Concerned PI has been very vocal...
Opposing the proposed referendum... And they say because of that they're now being targeted.
The founder of the group says they've been harassed through letters...
And dozens of their vote no signs stolen.... or ripped off.
"Right now I’ve got 4 business men in town who say they would put a sign up but they've been intimidated,” says Brian Hervey.
Steve Thompson.... Who wants the referendum says those on his side, have nothing to do with it.
"Certainly there's no one in our organization that would advocate that, we don't want this to become an us versus them situation because every body's voice needs to be heard," says Thompson.
Both sides say they hope the harassments will stop.
Maybe then... People living nearby will focus on learning more about both sides of the issue...and make an informed decision when they cast their ballot on November.
The Concerned PI group says they've filed a complaint with the sheriff's department regarding the missing signs...and the threats they have received.
< http://www.concernedpi.com/index.html >
Posted by usmcr on Oct. 20 2007,3:49 pm
recieved a call today encouraging us to vote on the referendeum. we informed the caller that we had already vorted by means of the absentee ballot as we will be out of state duning the voting time. i was taken aback when the caller asked how we voted! needless to say our conversation ended at that point!
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 20 2007,4:23 pm
(busybee @ Oct. 18 2007,6:00 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
What does voting no to referendum get us?
If we lose what happens?
It just seems we will be further behind and have to catch up!
Is losing really what we want?
Just wondering about your "no for now" methodology.
I am still waiting for an anwer?
If we lose what happens?
It just seems we will be further behind and have to catch up!
Is losing really what we want?
Just wondering about your "no for now" methodology.
I am still waiting for an anwer?
Going to switch this a little bit because I know I have already responded to these questions, as have others...please share what you are certain is going to happen in the future of District 241 students if the referendum passes.
What does voting yes to a referendum get us?
If we win what happens?
It just seems we will be further behind and have to catch up!
Is winning really what we want?
Just wondering about your "vote yes now" methodology.
Lol. We fall further behind by voting yes. Hope that one makes you sleep better. I guess you have to have some reason to put the screws to kids because you think Prescott and teachers make too much. Or the people who bring up the location of the high school etc. Yup those darn 3rd graders its their fault
Posted by bianca on Oct. 20 2007,5:50 pm
wildjim-So the answers to the questions posed to you are basically "because TEAM says so that's why I'll vote yes".
Typical pro-referendum response. When you don't know the answers to the questions you just resort to "yactics"
Way to go on being informed about your decisions..... if all you think from reading VOTE NO opinions are based on some sort of dislike towards Prescott and the teachers, you haven't been paying attention very well.
Voting NO does not mean that we're trying
QUOTE
to put the screws to kids
. Obviously the VOTE NO side of the issue bases their information on facts and stats and not just "parroting" the words of their TEAM puppet-masters......still waiting for YOUR answers to YOUR questions??? One would think that if a person were to ask certain questions on something, they would have a little more substance and a lot less sarcasm if they truly knew the answers to the questions.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 20 2007,8:22 pm
QUOTE
Lol. We fall further behind by voting yes. Hope that one makes you sleep better.
I am convinced that we gain nothing by voting yes on this referendum. This is about keeping what we have and getting back some of what we lost last year. Hardly anything in the proposed cuts appears to directly affect student ACADEMICS, unless you're worried about things like sports, extra cirricular, electives and bussing. Further, there are no guarantees from the district that everything will be as it once was or that nothing will be cut in the next 7 years if it does pass. How can anyone be sure what the district will be doing when they can't even pin it down so as to inform in better detail what their plan is?
If you or anyone else can show me proof that our students don't need a more focused and rigorous cirriculum in core academics in order to be ready for college or compete in the workforce to make a decent living, please do tell.
If you or anyone else can show me proof that within the next 7 years, No Child Left Behind is not going to require new mandates or make public school districts be more accountable for academic achievement, or if it does happen, the funding will be at 100%, please do tell.
These are the two main concerns I have with the current referendum proposal.
I worry that if this passes, in three years, we're going to be exactly where we are today, especially because of NCLB. It makes absolutely no sense to me when public school districts (ours included) complain about the unpaid mandates from NCLB, the extra costs to impliment AYP goals, like testing, etc... yet they want a referendum to keep things the same without even addressing their own complaint.
IMHO the time has come where we can't continue to assume everything will work out for the best for students just because we pass a referendum. In order for students to have the best opportunity to succeed, we need to focus first on improving core academics in all grades (especially high school). The public school systems in the U.S. has to start moving farther away from the current philosophy towards a new philosophy. I say that because we are still teaching students like we have in years gone by when most anyone could graduate and get a job in the U.S. making a livable wage. Our workforce is not that way anymore...the competition is greater than it ever has been. We need to start preparing our children for that, not ignoring it or trying keep things the same for them.
If District 241 was able to make some "not so fun" choices and ask for local funding to focus on improving academics in our schools, that would be where we could make the biggest difference; for our children and our community. What will bring students here, families here and maybe even businesses, is better than average academics, not "other" stuff. Most every district our size has other stuff...why compete there when we have the potential to be different, to be better, where the majority of others are not.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 20 2007,10:02 pm
Bianca. I believe it was you that brought up the land purchase and I don't think you were even born when the land was aquired
Posted by bianca on Oct. 21 2007,7:10 am
wildjim- you are incorrect on your "beliefs" on some QUOTE
land purchase
. Stick to the facts please, not assumptions or misguided "belief's" I voted for and supported the school in 1997-2000. I still support education, it IS very important. Everyone deserves a good education to make them successful in life. Voting NO means that district 241 and the school board we voted in to convey our best interests need to spend their money and time on what the citizens want as a community vs what a select few want. This is what gets District 241 and TEAM's reasoning in trouble. Start basing your information on facts rather than assumptions and people might be more apt to hear your stance. Unless of course it is yet again, one of your failed attempts at avoiding the questions you posed.
**LEARN to Vote NO for our students successful future and accountability from District 241**
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 21 2007,9:51 am
So it is Tonya Lynch aye? Interesting article in the Trib.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 21 2007,11:25 am
If you thought that letter was interesting wait until my guest column appears this week.LEARN to vote this bill down. Vote NO on November 6.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 21 2007,12:28 pm
Lynch said she and the other members of her group — who wish to remain for the most part anonymous to escape any judgment and repercussions — are citizens who want accountability and responsibility in spending in Albert Lea’s schools. She said the group is made up of parents, business owners and local teachers who are concerned about the way things are going in the community. So you want accountability and every question answered by the school, but you can't even let us know who your group is
Its ok for you to be judge and jury but your group doesn't want to be judged.
It must be nice
Posted by bianca on Oct. 21 2007,12:50 pm
What does any of that have to do with the referendum? And by the way do you care to share your name? If not then why should anyone else? Because YOU said so Where does the judge and jury come from, is it based on anything?
The names of the people in our group is not relevant information. It is their right to stay anonymous rather than risking their jobs if they speak out against their employers.
We haven't asked for the hundred supposed names of TEAM nor should you require ours.
What should be relevant are the issues put before us and the ability for us to go against the status quo as we see fit. If you want to continue to make "pot-shots" rather than debate, that's your perogative.
Regardless of what you think we are standing up for something WE believe in. Our kids, Our community and Our future in a realistic way. Our school is missing the mark, FAILING!! Do tell how passing the referendum is going to assure us academic success. Do you know?
Just because your wife is a teacher and this "could" mean more children for her.... ("could" because the district won't say for sure) to teach next year. There are teachers who are against the referendum, who value their jobs just as much as anyone else. But the more important picture to them isn't whether they are going to have more students or not, it's that the academic part of the equation is not up to par.
Stick to the issues rather than trying to take a stab in the dark.
Oh and by the way, there's still time for you to LEARN to VOTE NO
Posted by Wareagle11B on Oct. 21 2007,1:59 pm
Tonya Lynch brought up some very valid points in her article. She is correct in so many ways and yet the District will not answer those questions that she and others have brought up. So what that members of LEARN wish to remain anonymous. It is imperative to some that their names do not get released as it could cost them trouble in the workplace.One of my issues with this levy referendum is why, as Tonya stated, are they making vague and hazy comments on what COULD be cut rather than being definite on what they WILL cut? Why are they choosing to use some of the more popular classes as examples of what they are looking at cutting instead of those classes that have fewer students on average to cut? Seriously you cannot tell me that every single one of the 450+ classes available at the ALHS are consistently full of students. I would venture that some are "FLUFF" classes made available for some students to pass easier than they would otherwise. How many of those classes are absolutely necessary to life in the real world? Now along with cutting those classes, and the costs of the materials for them, where else can we cut costs? This is but one area where I think we could cut some serious money from the "fat" of our school budget. Others have been suggested by folks like Jim Hanson as well as Tonya Lynch so why not take these suggestions and debate the pros and cons of them?
Tonya very good article. Maybe now someone in the Dist. 241 offices can now step forward and answer them and not use vague and hazy language when doing so.
By the way if anyone cares to know who I am just pm me and I will tell you.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 21 2007,3:30 pm
Here is why. They tell you the exact cuts abd then we here that they are thretening. Announce no cuts then they are hiding something. People use this to justify their no vote. Jim Hanson. You have to be kidding conservative unill he takes the time to learn about an issue (airport). This whole cut a million we will give you a million is bs. What is the data that supports such a simplistic plan?War what class would you cut and when was the last time it ran and when it did how many students were in the class?
Bianca. I will have to see if I can find last weeks paper. I thoight it was your letter that brought up the land purchase. Maybe it was the fine letter that claimed the old school was worth 20 million. Odd that the guy sold it for so little than
Posted by SimpleLife on Oct. 21 2007,3:41 pm
(Wareagle11B @ Oct. 21 2007,1:59 pm)
QUOTE
It is imperative to some that their names do not get released as it could cost them trouble in the workplace.
That would be me. Several of my coworkers are on TEAM, including my direct superior. I'll support LEARN from behind the scenes, thank you very much.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 21 2007,3:47 pm
AND a TEAM member would definitely use their supervisory position to illegally punish a subordinate and both you and I know it. Very telling of who TEAM members really are and what they're really about. Agree with me or I'll illegally punish you.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 21 2007,3:53 pm
QUOTE
Jim Hanson. You have to be kidding conservative unill he takes the time to learn about an issue (airport).
Once again, a raving liberal has it backwards. It is KNOWING about aviation that makes me a conservative. You don't find many liberals in aviation--being a pilot is about taking responsibility and accountablility--something rarely found in liberals. Being a pilot means dealing with FACTS as they ARE--not the way you wish things were.
In aviation, we've EXPERIENCED FIRST HAND the worst of government--overstaffing, over regulating, incompetents protecting their government jobs, inability to change or react to the marketplace, bloated bureaucracies. It's called the FAA.
Example: Until only a few years ago, commercial pilots that wore eyeglasses were required to have a second set on their person "In case the first pair were covered with oil or blown away in the slipstream." The FAA finally figured out that jets don't have open cockpits.
For my flight physical THIS year, the FAA finally dispensed with "the ability to discern morse code A and N--the method of flying the "range stations" pre-WW II--and the last of which was decommissioned 27 years ago.
The FAA has been testing the braking action on a Boeing 720B for over 30 YEARS, at a cost of millions of dollars a year for this political plum. Don't you think that they would have found out what they need to know about this airplane in 30 years of testing? The REST of the story--ALL BOEING 720B'S HAVE BEEN RETIRED FOR NEARLY 20 YEARS--EXCEPT THIS ONE!
I have an Airline Transport Rating--allowing me to fly "Commercial" airplanes. What is the difference between an airliner and a "small" airplane? It has to weigh more than 12,500 pounds. How did the FAA come up with that figure? When the FORD TRI-MOTOR WAS CERTIFIED--in 1928!
The FAA wanted to replace their computer systems. TWICE, they went into Request for Proposals--spending billions of dollars. BOTH times, the computers they selected were OUTDATED by the time they got around to purchasing them.
No, like the military--liberalism and aviation don't often see eye to eye--we have to live in the REAL world, not a politicians FANTASY WORLD.
Back on topic--I've identified two ways to save a Million Dollars earlier in the thread--and proposed a "meet you half way" with "give us a Million Dollars in cuts, and we'll give you a million dollars in bonds."
YOU, on the other hand, have proposed NO cuts--you must think that there isn't any fat to cut, and like things just as they are.
Bill Engvall ridicules people who don't think by telling them "Here's your sign!" In this case, let's paraphrase that with "HERE'S YOUR HAT!"
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 21 2007,3:59 pm
^Nice post. You're a libertarian at heart.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 21 2007,4:54 pm
OK, I have asked what a no vote will get me...and that was turned around on me and not answered.I have asked about LEARN and the double standard it seems to be setting and that was not answered.
Here is a couple simpler questions:
Why would I join LEARN?
What steps is LEARN taking to make sure that my child is getting the best education possible?
What does a no vote get my child?
I want to really know more about your group. It can stay as annonymous as you want, but please just answer these couple questions.
You are faced with many people that are on the fence and answering these questions may sway a few votes.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 21 2007,5:16 pm
QUOTE
You're a libertarian at heart.
You are correct--I voted for Perot and for Ventura--if I thought a Libertarian had a chance instead of handing the election to Hillary, I would vote that way.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 21 2007,5:32 pm
Whatthe: The answers to your questions are contained in the previously posted LEARN post (reposted below).The short answer to your questions of
QUOTE
"Why should I join LEARN? What will a no vote get my child? What steps is LEARN taking to make sure that my child is getting the best education possible?"
is THIS--By turning down this referendum AND engaging in the community dialogue we are seeking, YOU get to have a more direct say in how the school district sets priorities. As it is, a FEW people set priorities, tell us how much they will seek in the referendum, and all we get to vote on is Yes or NO. We're not anti-education--we just want a community dialogue on what the COMMUNITY wants. If the community develops a consensus that they COULD save a million dollars by closing an unneeded elementary school, we should do so--but if the decision is to KEEP the school (at extra cost) so be it. Please read through the issues below, and see if YOU would like to have a say on those issues. Unlike the Administration/TEAM that only gives you vague assurances on what they will do with your money, WE have a specific outline--bring these issues up (as opposed to simply talking about DOLLARS), and let the community decide. Most people clamor for responsive and responsible government--here's your chance.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LEARN--"Let's Educate and Accept Responsibility Now" says
We do not think that a flawed bill should be supported--especially a bill that will reach out far into the future. Instead, we would like to turn down a bad bill now, and come up with a better one.
A PROPOSED COMMUNITY DIALOGUE WOULD INVOLVE AT LEAST THE FOLLOWING ITEMS:
A discussion of whether to keep or cut one elementary school. By the Administration's own proposals, keeping an additional school open is a million dollar a year proposition. We have to ask--"What ELSE could we do with that money to achieve excellence?" Taxpayers may very well figure that having an additional school open IS the best use of a million dollars, and if that is the decision, so be it. Taxpayers SHOULD be able to have input.
Comparative choices. Go to the school board website--there are a NUMBER of cost-saving possibilities there. Example: we can save a substantial amount of money by going to contract janitorial services instead of District employees--at no detriment to scholastic achievement. Would we rather have our own janitors, or have our children walking to school? A similar amount of money can be saved by contract secretarial services. Would we rather have our "own" secretaries, or offer additional classes or options?
Priorities. Set the budget, and let the PUBLIC decide the priorities. Nobody wants to see their program cut, but if it comes down to scholastics OR athletics--it should not be hard to make a choice. We owe our children an EDUCATION, not a chance to play sports.
Top down. People making budget cuts usually start at the bottom, and work up. It takes a LOT of cuts at low levels to equal ONE cut at high levels. We don't see much in the way of Administrative cuts.
Guarantees. The Administration has not been forthcoming in what they say they will do with the money--only general platitudes of "improve education" or "maintain programs." There are no guarantees that they will not cut programs if given the money. There are no guarantees that test scores will improve if given the money--their record of delivering on promises is spotty at best. We would like to see the Administration sign a "If you give us this money, HERE is what we will do with it." If they don't produce, their job is on the line.
Options. We feel the Administration has over-reached by requesting over $2 million dollars. The operating budget of the school district (everything except the capital costs of paying for and maintaining schools) is $31,000,000. Two million dollars represents slightly over 6% that needs to be cut--hardly "big cutbacks in programs"--businesses do it all the time. That said, we feel that there is a "middle ground"--after developing a dialogue, setting priorities, considering options, and getting guarantees, perhaps the best thing would be to propose a "Give us One Million in cuts, we'll give you one Million in levy taxes." That is a win for both sides--fiscal responsibility, money to sustain programs, community involvement.
PLEASE don't tell us that this can be accomplished by going to school board meetings. To do so is ONE voice addressing the board. It is of little consequence--their eyes glaze over, they thank us for "input"--then do as they please, anyway. HARDLY a "community dialogue."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
LEARN is about community involvement, about making choices, about accountability. I don't see involvement, choices, or accountability in the Administration/TEAM proposal.
Your only choice is to vote YES or NO. In this case, vote NO, and send them back to come back with something better.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 21 2007,5:53 pm
OK, I have asked what a no vote will get me...and that was turned around on me and not answered.--->People don't exist to serve you now do they?I have asked about LEARN and the double standard it seems to be setting and that was not answered.
Here is a couple simpler questions:
Why would I join LEARN?---->To give TEAM a reality check and let you keep and spend your own money how you see fit. You can spend it directly on your child or write district 241 a check, or spend your windfall on anything you'd like.
What steps is LEARN taking to make sure that my child is getting the best education possible?---->They are allowing you to spend your own money how you see fit. No one is stopping you from putting these tax savings into your child's education.
What does a no vote get my child?---->It'll put a certain amount of dollars in his parents hands this month, next month and every month thereafter for life. This money can be spent on that child not only now, but when he's in college and beyond...every month for life. That's what for life means. For perpetuity...forever.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 21 2007,6:32 pm
3T, naughty, naughty That's not what LEARN is about, you silly rabbit. Jim Hanson has it down pat and you will see that in the LEARN literature.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 21 2007,6:45 pm
I received a call tonight from a parent who was very upset with the Sibley school principal. Apparently the students are not being allowed to play kickball, football etc. at recess, lunchtime. When this parent asked Ross Williams why the kids have to just stand around in a circle outside and not be able to play football his response was "we're afraid they will get hurt."Of course the parent was furious because that's what kids do, she called Tom Ehrhardt from TEAM and told him about this and his response was "Well, you know....if you don't vote yes for the referendum your son could pay as much as $260.00 to play when he gets to the highschool." That's when she called me and said, "they don't care about education, all they care about is sports here, what does my son not getting exercise at recess have anything to do with the football costs at the highschool?!"
Keep talking TEAM you're turning the yes votes over to NO votes by the hourdes.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 21 2007,6:56 pm
Thank you Jim.That is all I wanted.
Now one more question:
Will LEARN go to the Administration/school board and ask for a meeting prior to the referendum vote?
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 21 2007,9:19 pm
So you want dialog. Sounds good jim. How many school board meetings have you been to and asked questions? I am sure you must have been to a team meeting too right? Or were you to busy helping the Elks? But you might be on to something here after all. I thought the airport improvements made sense. But maybe we should just do half of them and you cut the other half. And like the schools not taking credit for cuts from prior years.
Posted by Liberal on Oct. 21 2007,9:48 pm
I was talking to someone today that was telling me about all the budget cuts the School Board made last year. When I asked where the person had heard that they made budget cuts I was told one of the members of TEAM had said it.In case any is wondering about budget cuts made last year here's an article from the Tribune.
QUOTE
School board passes budget without cuts
By Kari Lucin, staff writer
Thursday, June 8, 2006 10:36 AM CDT
Albert Lea schools will scrape through the 2006-2007 academic year without budget cuts, but trouble looms for 2007-2008.
“The board decided to use roughly $973,000 of the existing fund balance so that we didn't have to make budget cuts,” said Finance Manager Mark Stotts. “Our fund balance in the general fund is beginning to dwindle. We've tapped into it for the last three years.”
The school needs a balance in the general fund in order to compensate for unexpected costs such as rising fuel prices and insurance rates.
“As well as a district thinks they can budget, they're never going to predict everything,” Stotts said.
The board did not cut or add any programs for the upcoming school year, setting the budget at $32,561,351 in the general fund. Its revenue is expected to be $31,588,226 in that area.
Minnesota lawmakers will increase the money schools receive per pupil by 4 percent this year, helping the Albert Lea School District stave off cuts.
Though the $4,974 per student the district gets from the state does not form the entirety of
its general fund - the fund the district uses to run day-to-day operations - it does make up about two-thirds of it. Consequently, per-pupil rate increases have a significant impact on the district's budget.
Next year, a large senior class will graduate, causing a loss of 71 kids and a loss of $450,000 from the school's money from the state.
The increase in fuel prices has contributed to the budget crunch, but because some prices were locked into place up to a year in advance, the district had some insulation from rising costs.
“It cost us probably an extra $100,000, $150,000 during the year,” Stotts said.
Contact Kari Lucin at kari.lucin@albertleatribune.com or 379-3444.
Albert Lea Area schools budgeted revenue and expenditures for 2006-2007
Fund Budgeted Revenues Budgeted Expenditures Balance for 2007-2008
General $31,588,226 $32,561,351 $1,841,555
Food Service 1,477,785 1,474,223 163,310
Community Education 836,434 876,175 57,392
Debt Service 2,877,346 2,774,400 1,301,795
Building Construction 11,000 286,000 0
Total $36,790,791 $37,972,149 $3,364,052
Debt service is where the school pays off bonds, and the building construction fund is the remaining money from the bond the school used to build the high school. The general fund is where salaries, utilities and day-to-day operations money comes from.
< http://www.albertleatribune.com/articles/2006/06/08/news/news4.txt >
Posted by Wolfie on Oct. 21 2007,10:31 pm
My vote of no for the referendum is not due to the fact that i dont want my taxes to go up on my house (it wouldnt be that much anyway). As My wife and I do not have any kids, its also not a decision to harm or help their education. It stems from the pure and simple belief that Dist 241 management has mismanaged the monies that they have received, note to mention the mafia like strong arm tactics used to try and get more monies. As a business owner in town I do not care to have anyone know publicly what my stance is on this subject for fear of repercussions from "the powers that be". I already know I am not looked at favorably because of my membership in certain organizations and not others. Why add fuel to the fire. I appreciate the pm's concerning this and I regret I couldn't attend the informational meeting.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 21 2007,10:35 pm
Are you trying to say there were not cuts this year? For a guy that hates the paper you seem to use it as a source a lot.
Posted by Liberal on Oct. 21 2007,10:40 pm
I was actually leaning towards a YES YES vote (or not voting at all), until the conversation today. The person I was talking to just spouted the TEAM propaganda like they were reading from a pamphlet. That coupled with the misinformation about the budget cuts has changed my vote.The School Board could have made budget cuts last year and only used $500K of reserves, then this year they could have used the other $500K and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
QUOTE
For a guy that hates the paper you seem to use it as a source a lot.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 22 2007,11:39 am
I think most people are voting no because of the lack of accountablility and answers given to the people by the board. Which means the administration and board have a bigger problem on their hands than funding. Lack of trust.
And the tactics used are going to back-fire. Blackmail and empty threats are not going to endear someone on the fence to vote yes. And they need to quit telling the kids to go home to tell their parents to vote yes. This is a referendum for the voting public to decide. My children do not tell me how to vote or how to budget my money. That is an adult decision not a 9 year olds decision.
The fact that those voting no feel they need to be anonymous says something doesn't it?
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 22 2007,12:18 pm
QUOTE
I thought the airport improvements made sense. But maybe we should just do half of them and you cut the other half.
Thank you for seeing things my way. The airport cuts have already happened.We cut out the taxiways on the cross runways that the consultants put in.
We cut out the extension of the cross runway--we need a rebuild and extension of the MAIN runway--not the cross runway.
We eliminated the ILS system--a million dollars, in favor of a GPS based approach. While most airports have the ILS, the technology is becoming dated, and there are 9 ILS approaches within 52 miles for the half-dozen or less times that we can't land here. It's NICE to have, but not the best use of our money.
The school system should be run the same--
1. Engage in a discussion of what is REALLY needed.
2. Make comparative choices on what we would RATHER have (a taxiway, or a longer runway?)
3. Discuss OPTIONS.
Other than your ineffective attempt to smear, the school referendum and the airport project have nothing in common.
1. The airport project has been 50 years in the making.
2. Unlike the schools, It is funded 95% by USER fees--those who actually USE airports.
3. The airport doesn't come asking the community for handouts for construction.
4. Like replacing an old car with a new one, the City will spend LESS on their portion of the construction than they will on normal maintenance--and get a much better facility in the bargain.
5. Albert Lea has patiently waited its turn for the reconstruction money until it made SENSE to use it--when the old facility was no longer useable.
6. MN/DOT and the FAA assure accountability.
Other than THAT, they're the same.
Posted by Botto 82 on Oct. 22 2007,4:39 pm
The fear tactic is becoming more prevalent in all sorts of areas within the social experience.News organizations put up tornado footage, point out their resources, and all but tag the promo with, "WXYZ News: Watch us or die!"
It certainly worked on a national level. The Constitution almost scrapped, but we had to, to keep us safe from the terr'rists.
Now TEAM wants you to think that if you don't cough up the cash, your kids' experience at school will be horribly diminished.
Don't fall for it. The LEARN folks are demanding accountability. Get behind 'em. Afterwards, you can still vote as you'd like, but at least you'll be voting from an informed position, as opposed to a frightened one.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 22 2007,5:19 pm
QUOTE
Other than your ineffective attempt to smear,
Exactly, wildjim has proven yet again the yactics that TEAM uses to TRY to sway votes. Unfortunately for TEAM they still, after five years, have not figured out how to play nice and as Detective Friday used to say, "Just the facts, mam".
Nice post Botto.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 22 2007,7:31 pm
Dorman just told the City Council that the ALEDA wished to express that they support TEAM. Anybody else just catch that?
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 22 2007,7:40 pm
So past airport cuts count but not past school cuts. Smile. So Jim what meetings did you go to team or school board?
Posted by Liberal on Oct. 22 2007,7:44 pm
It's hard to catch a school board meeting when they only last 20 or 30 mins. They hardly have time to vote the way admin tells them to in that amount of time.
Posted by FlyguyAL on Oct. 22 2007,8:24 pm
(MADDOG @ Oct. 22 2007,7:31 pm)
QUOTE
Dorman just told the City Council that the ALEDA wished to express that they support TEAM. Anybody else just catch that?
No, he said he just left a meeting of TEAM and wanted to point out that a resolution had been passed in support of the referendum by that mess called Port Authority, Greater Jobs inc., ALEDA.
Vote Yes Yes
Posted by bianca on Oct. 22 2007,10:27 pm
wildjimAnything to add except
QUOTE
your ineffective attempt to smear,
Do tell why you think in your own words if you will what voting yes will get "the children"?
Have you been to a recent pep rally?
I mean, school board meeting for TEAM?Apparently you haven't cared to share much on what you learned if you have in fact gone, do you know the facts or are you just parroting the words of the old great wizard
, I mean superintendent?Stop the smear, put yourself above that and debate your views.
Why will you vote yes, if you are?
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 22 2007,10:51 pm
First time post!!! I wanted to stir the pot as it were, by addressing some common thoughts, with things I remember hearing/thinking/seeing/reading/etc...
"We didn't need a new school" - This sentiment couldn't be more incorrect. What I remember seeing in the old school were classrooms that had to be dusted everyday because the walls were falling on all the shelves. I remember hearing that due to the seven additions to the old building, that 60% of the old school was hallway space (not a good use of an energy budget if you ask me - 60% of the heating going to heat hallways). As for the old school being only 60 years old and comparing that to a house that is 100 years old, try having 1200 students and 100 staff members spend 8 hours a day in your 100 year old house and see how long it takes to deteriorate. By the way... upon a closer look at school funding, the funding for building a new school apparently does not come out of an "operating budget". This referendum is about the operating budget, not the new school.
"We didn't lose good teachers because of pay" I agree. Any teacher worth their salt won't leave solely because of pay! With that said, I don't think the effects of education funding (or the lack of) can be limited to salaries. When class sizes increase, when staff cuts are made, when support staff is cut, the work load for the remaining staff (including teachers, custodians, secretaries, etc...) increases. This leads to lower job satisfaction as the school employees get overwhelmed with duties that were not originally theirs to begin with.
"We could get by with one Principal for two elementary schools" - I grew up in a town like A.L. Thinking back, we would never have accepted the idea that an elementary school shouldn't have their own Principal. That getting by is good enough. I am ashamed to be apart of any conversation that suggests that good enough is good enough whether it be in our personal lives or in our community or in our schools. We all deserve better than "good enough".
Cut sports - Once again I can go back to my childhood (the 80's). My school charged $20.00/sport and had the buy two get one free deal. Now the children in Albert Lea must pay $160.00 at the High school and $65.00 for middle school activities. How can we as a community say that this is OK. We had it much better back in the day. Why do we expect parents to do so much more today.
One more... Teachers are telling their students to get their parents to vote yes - Did I miss something here? I have never heard that teachers are telling their students this. Can anyone site one example? In the classroom is one thing, but I am very cautious about telling someone what they can and cannot say when they are off duty.
OK that's enough for now... except to say I am voting Yes Yes
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 23 2007,12:53 am
^Why? Do you believe if you give the school more money, they will cut fees? You can't be that simple.You can give any amount you want to the district at any time. Aren't you really advocating that others be forced to give with your yes vote?
Posted by busybee on Oct. 23 2007,4:11 am
I just don't get it... QUOTE
"We didn't need a new school" - This sentiment couldn't be more incorrect.
I personally could care less about the old high school and the new high school debate. That issue has nothing to do with my voting decision on this referendum, nor does the courthouse. Please don't assume that everyone who questions this referendum is that materialistic.
QUOTE
When class sizes increase, when staff cuts are made, when support staff is cut, the work load for the remaining staff (including teachers, custodians, secretaries, etc...) increases. This leads to lower job satisfaction as the school employees get overwhelmed with duties that were not originally theirs to begin with.
Do you know what the enrollment status will be for the next 7 consecutive years? How much do you really think the classrooms are going to increase if this doesn't pass? I don't like when they talk about increasing classroom sizes either, but I will tell you this much...if each 1st grade classroom in the district has 18-22 students this year and they can cut a teacher to place 20-24 students in each classroom for 2nd grade next year, they're going to do it, whether or not we pass this particular referendum.
Do a little bit of research and you will find that our district brags about all grades having low per pupil to teacher ratio in the classroom environment. Our district has asked for and recieved extra funding from the state due to declining enrollment. Our district is has lost some 200 students to other districts with only approximately 70 coming in from other districts. How do we fix that problem? It certainly isn't by passing a referendum that gives no opportunity for growth and improvement in ACADEMICS...that is what quality education is about...not custodians, secretaries or the fluff "extras" we WANT students to have. That concept hasn't been working. It hasn't made our community grow, it hasn't improved test scores or achievement of our students and it most certainly doesn't give me a feeling of pride when our district wants to keep things the way they are because this is supposed to be the best we can offer or do under the circumstances. BULL...that's the easy way out and it's not enough for me, for the students or our community. We could do so much more with 2 million than what the district is proposing it be used for.
QUOTE
I am ashamed to be apart of any conversation that suggests that good enough is good enough whether it be in our personal lives or in our community or in our schools. We all deserve better than "good enough".
Where do you get the idea that everyone who disputes the focus of this referendum wants the students to simply get by and that's good enough? Once again...have you done any research? Do you know why by the time students are in our high school a little less than 30% of them perform at or above proficiency level in math? Or that there is a decline in grade level reading proficiency? Is that good enough? These are the types of issues that NEED our attention and if the school district isn't going to address it, I am, because that's what I VALUE the most in quality education. Our students deserve the opportunity and rights to progress through every grade to the best of their ability in core academics. I don't see that as a focus for this referendum, instead, I see things like this....
QUOTE
Cut sports - Once again I can go back to my childhood (the 80's). My school charged $20.00/sport and had the buy two get one free deal. Now the children in Albert Lea must pay $160.00 at the High school and $65.00 for middle school activities. How can we as a community say that this is OK. We had it much better back in the day. Why do we expect parents to do so much more today.
Do you know how much our district spends per student on sports? Do you know where the money comes from to fund school sports? Do you think the state and federal government give funding to schools for sports? Do you know how many students participate in sports...is it all of them? Are sports essential to academic growth? What is the potential of a student to get gainful employment from participation in a sport? How many students will still be able to participate in the school sport they "loved" to do once they are adults and employed? I would venture to say that out of all the football players that have ever graduated from ALHS we probably produced more fisherman and hunters than careered football players with a master's degree.
As a parent, I expect myself to do much more than I thought I'd be expected to. My parents rarely had to help me with my homework, now every night I guide and check over my elementary child and middle school child with their school work and studies, plus, I read to my elementary student and my 3 year old. Add to that, I keep track of my high school aged child with a rigorous and focused home-school program. All my choice because I value their academic achievement, which in turn has helped them to do the same. Why is it this way now, instead of the way it was back in the day...well, employer needs have changed here in the U.S. from back in the 80's and our schools really need to wake up and pay attention to rebuilding their philosophy from developing a "well rounded student" to an improved academic student.
Cutting sports wouldn't bother me a bit. Let the parents of those students who want to participate pay. I have to pay for my children's non-related sports activities. They have no interest in school sports and I'm not expecting everyone else to throw money into one big pot so I can keep my costs as low as possible so I can offer my kids their "opportunity." If people were really to face the facts on the school sports issue, they would realize that passing a referendum in order to keep costs down or prevent cuts is ONLY supporting a specific percentage of students. If the "system" was fair and balanced, we would all throw money into a pot and each student would get to choose a sport of choice and use their portion of the money towards participation. This would mean each student would be allocated the same amount of money and instead of having the district choose what sports are valuable in developing "well rounded students" for them, all students would be allowed an opportunity to pick a sport that is valuable to them.
The end!
Posted by Ned Kelly on Oct. 23 2007,4:59 am
Put the blame where it belongs. The state of Minnesota has reduced funding to schools. The Pawlenty tax cut to the upper income Minnesotans had to come from somewhere. Part came from education, local and college, part came from highways and bridges. Governor Pawlenty made a pledge to the Taxpayers League not to increase taxes. Now we get to drive on pothole filled highways, and are struggling to get our kids educated. I guess we are missing a bridge in the metro area too.......Minnesota a great place to live, pre-Pawlenty..............
.............ned
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 23 2007,8:35 am
BusyBee...Thank you for your questions and input. The answer to almost all of your questions is yes? I do know where school funding comes from.
I do have one request of you BusyBee. I will ask that (being new to this forum, I may not know that this could be asking too much) you do not address only parts of statements and tear them apart. That, I believe is an easy way out.
An example of where you did that includes, but is not limited to:
"QUOTE
"We didn't need a new school" - This sentiment couldn't be more incorrect.
I personally could care less about the old high school and the new high school debate. That issue has nothing to do with my voting decision on this referendum, nor does the courthouse. Please don't assume that everyone who questions this referendum is that materialistic."
I actually wrote ""We didn't need a new school" - This sentiment couldn't be more incorrect. What I remember seeing in the old school were classrooms that had to be dusted everyday because the walls were falling on all the shelves. I remember hearing that due to the seven additions to the old building, that 60% of the old school was hallway space (not a good use of an energy budget if you ask me - 60% of the heating going to heat hallways). As for the old school being only 60 years old and comparing that to a house that is 100 years old, try having 1200 students and 100 staff members spend 8 hours a day in your 100 year old house and see how long it takes to deteriorate. By the way... upon a closer look at school funding, the funding for building a new school apparently does not come out of an "operating budget". This referendum is about the operating budget, not the new school."
In this I didn't assume anyone was materialistic. I also did not say anything about anyone. I simply made an argument that we indeed needed a new school and that this referendum is about the operating budget and not the new school. I would love to hear discussion on those points. Points by the way that have been brought up many times in this forum as reasons to vote no. Your comments asked me to not assume anything about people being materialistic. I have to wonder if you actually read my post.
If you cannot understand what I am saying, then you have lost me.
As for declining enrollment, the money from the state is not enough to fill the void of losing a student. It costs approximately $50,000.00 to $55,000.00 to hire a new teacher. In an elementary class of say 28 (not unreasonable to find this in this district), at the state level of funding per student (approx. $6,000.00), it would take the loss of only 9 students to be forced to cut a teacher. What happens to the other 19 kids. They get put in other classes and class size goes up. In other words, enrollment declines much faster than staff needs do.
You and I may simply have to disagree. I think that this is OK.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 23 2007,8:45 am
OK, Before this becomes a LEARN vs TEAM free for all. We need to consider the children, remember them-the reason everyone is here.Consider this scenario: LEARN wants accountability, which I understand fully. How about people from LEARN meet with people from TEAM so that all of the facts are accounted for and taken care of BEFORE the vote.
It seems that we are wasting valueable time filling in the empty spaces.
Another thought:
LEARN's main problem seems to be the NCLB tests that AL has failed in the last few years.
It seems to me that if our soldiers lost a battle in Iraq, we would not take away their guns and give them knives to continue with the battle. I think that if we lose money now-the battle will just get harder and harder.
What if we pass the referendum and LEARN continues the fight for better scores and more accountability. I would imagine that even people from TEAM want accountability and better scores.
Maybe in the end-we will have a better group focusing on our children-Isn't that what we really all want.
Just a thought!
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 23 2007,9:20 am
Whathe said,QUOTE
OK, Before this becomes a LEARN vs TEAM free for all. We need to consider the children, remember them-the reason everyone is here.
Consider this scenario: LEARN wants accountability, which I understand fully. How about people from LEARN meet with people from TEAM so that all of the facts are accounted for and taken care of BEFORE the vote.
It seems that we are wasting valueable time filling in the empty spaces.
Another thought:
LEARN's main problem seems to be the NCLB tests that AL has failed in the last few years.
It seems to me that if our soldiers lost a battle in Iraq, we would not take away their guns and give them knives to continue with the battle. I think that if we lose money now-the battle will just get harder and harder.
What if we pass the referendum and LEARN continues the fight for better scores and more accountability. I would imagine that even people from TEAM want accountability and better scores.
Maybe in the end-we will have a better group focusing on our children-Isn't that what we really all want.
Just a thought!
Consider this scenario: LEARN wants accountability, which I understand fully. How about people from LEARN meet with people from TEAM so that all of the facts are accounted for and taken care of BEFORE the vote.
It seems that we are wasting valueable time filling in the empty spaces.
Another thought:
LEARN's main problem seems to be the NCLB tests that AL has failed in the last few years.
It seems to me that if our soldiers lost a battle in Iraq, we would not take away their guns and give them knives to continue with the battle. I think that if we lose money now-the battle will just get harder and harder.
What if we pass the referendum and LEARN continues the fight for better scores and more accountability. I would imagine that even people from TEAM want accountability and better scores.
Maybe in the end-we will have a better group focusing on our children-Isn't that what we really all want.
Just a thought!
You make the most sense of anyone on this posting. Good job. Good common sense answer.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 23 2007,11:44 am
(whatthe @ Oct. 23 2007,8:45 am)
QUOTE
What if we pass the referendum and LEARN continues the fight for better scores and more accountability. I would imagine that even people from TEAM want accountability and better scores.
Well said Whatthe.
I think that both TEAM and LEARN are rippable in the sense that TEAM was not questioning school funding until the last couple of months. LEARN has not been out there either trying to analyze the budget until recently.
Just because TEAM or LEARN uses the same words as others from their respective groups doesn't mean they are not telling you the truth.
This forum has many references to either TEAM members or LEARN members using the same "old rhetoric".
I especially like the folks who blast the Super. for coming out the next day after the failed referendum and say that "we will try again next year." What did you expect him to say. They asked for needed money. They didn't get it. The only way to get it is to ask again. Was he supposed to come out and say... "Well that's ok. The community has spoken and we really didn't need the money anyway." Anyone who thought that would happen is not realistic.
The school district, like any other organization that relies on money to do their work, doesn't just decide one day that they need money. They think about it. They consider their options. Then they make the best call they can. And by the way, this wasn't decided by district employees. The people asking for the referendum are school board members. These people were voted in to make these decisions. I am not saying that their decisions are above scrutiny. I am saying that just because school employees support more funding doesn't mean they are not trustworthy.
But I digress. The point is that both TEAM and LEARN need to fight the good fight consistently during the years when there is no referendum. Not just in voting years. Otherwise they both appear disingenuous.
Thank you.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 23 2007,12:02 pm
TEAM doesn't want accountability. Period.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 23 2007,12:16 pm
(FlyguyAL @ Oct. 22 2007,8:24 pm)
QUOTE
(MADDOG @ Oct. 22 2007,7:31 pm)
QUOTE
Dorman just told the City Council that the ALEDA wished to express that they support TEAM. Anybody else just catch that?
No, he said he just left a meeting of TEAM and wanted to point out that a resolution had been passed in support of the referendum by that mess called Port Authority, Greater Jobs inc., ALEDA.
Vote Yes Yes Thanks for the clarification.
QUOTE
he said he just left a meeting of TEAM and wanted to point out that a resolution had been passed in support of the referendum by that mess called Port Authority, Greater Jobs inc., ALEDA.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 23 2007,12:16 pm
There ARE substantial differences between TEAM and LEARN. TEAM wants to TAKE your money--without telling you what they will use it for.
LEARN isn't proposing to take any money--just to have assurances that it will be well spent--to tell us IN ADVANCE where the money is going, not where it was spent.
TEAM and the Administration didn't include the fact that we are ONE YEAR AWAY from required major changes in their "happy fluff" piece mailed out at taxpayer expense. LEARN DID tell you that.
LEARN is on record as supporting keeping an extra elementary school, IF that is the will of the community--but we WOULD like the opportunity to vote on a million dollar proposal. TEAM doesn't give you those chances--all you can do is vote Yes or NO on what THEY propose.
If you are willing to simply accept the decisions of others, vote Yes.
If you believe that community INPUT is vital to our schools, VOTE NO, and tell them to come back with a better proposal.
Like a bad meal, you DON'T have to eat what they put in front of you!
Posted by samsdad on Oct. 23 2007,12:27 pm
Rev. Marin said last night that the school board members give all their salary back to the 241 and evenpay out of their own own pckets to keep the distric going. Is this true ? Guess we don't the referendum.
Posted by Common Citizen on Oct. 23 2007,12:34 pm
(samsdad @ Oct. 23 2007,12:27 pm)
QUOTE
Rev. Marin said last night that the school board members give all their salary back to the 241 and even
pay out of their own own pckets to keep the distric going. Is this true ? Guess we don't the referendum.
pay out of their own own pckets to keep the distric going. Is this true ? Guess we don't the referendum.
What? The school board members get paid for this? I must be ignorant...
double
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 23 2007,12:53 pm
Anyone can write the district a check at anytime for any amount. But TEAM members aren't interested in doing that. This is about forcing your friends and neighbors to pay more forever. They're really interested in dictating how your money is spent. It's no fun to worry about their own money.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 23 2007,1:02 pm
Ned Kelley QUOTE
The Pawlenty tax cut to the upper income Minnesotans had to come from somewhere. Part came from education, local and college, part came from highways and bridges.
We have already SEEN that Minnesota has more highway funds than ever before--so much for THAT meme. Now for your assertion that Pawlenty cut education and helped "the rich".From the State website:
GOVERNOR PAWLENTY SIGNS $24.2 MILLION TAX CUT BILL -- January 30, 2007
~ Quick action allows higher education, teacher expenses and other deductions this year ~
Governor Tim Pawlenty today signed the first bill of the 2007 legislative session – legislation that provides a $24.2 million tax cut for higher education tuition, teacher expenses, and other deductions that will impact 2006 income tax filings for an estimated 170,000 Minnesotans.
Joining the Governor at the Capitol bill signing ceremony were Senate Tax Committee Chair Sen. Thomas Bakk (DFL-Cook), House Tax Committee Chair Rep. Ann Lenczewski (DFL-Bloomington), House Speaker Rep. Margaret Anderson Kelliher (DFL-Minneapolis), House Minority Leader Rep. Marty Seifert (R-Marshall), Rep. Sandy Wollschlager (DFL-Cannon Falls), Rep. Dean Simpson (R-Perham), Senate Minority Leader Sen. Dave Senjem (R-Rochester), and Sen. Julianne Ortman (R-Chanhassen).
“We needed to act quickly so Minnesotans can take advantage of these deductions when they file their taxes this year,” Governor Pawlenty said. “This is a good example of Republicans and Democrats working together to do the right thing for Minnesotans.”
Because Minnesota uses federal taxable income to compute Minnesota tax, changes at the federal level can impact the state income tax paid by Minnesotans. Late last year, the U.S. Congress passed several bills that affected taxes for calendar year 2006 including the Tax Relief and Health Care Act of 2006 that was enacted on December 20, 2006.
The legislation passed unanimously by both the House and Senate matches Minnesota law with the new federal provisions and provides $24.2 million in income tax deductions for taxpayers.
The two largest deductions address educational expenses:
Deduction for tuition and related expenses - $18.3 million - Approximately 110,000 low and middle-income Minnesota taxpayers will be able to deduct higher education tuition and related expenses. The deduction is up to $4,000 if income is less than $65,000 for single filers and $130,000 for those filing joint returns. For incomes between $65,000 and $80,000 (single) and $130,000 and $160,000 (joint), the deduction is up to $2,000.
Deduction for classroom teacher expenses - $1 million - Minnesota K-12 teachers will continue to deduct up to $250 for classroom supplies through an extension of this current provision. Approximately 54,000 Minnesota teachers utilize this deduction.
Other personal and corporate tax deductions that now conform Minnesota tax law with the recent federal changes include:
Tax-free distributions up to $100,000 from an IRA for charitable purposes for taxpayers age 70˝ and older - $775,000
Extend accelerated depreciation for business property on Indian reservations - Individual Income Tax $750,000, Corporate Franchise Tax $600,000
Extend 15-year straight-line cost recovery for leasehold and restaurant improvements - Individual Income Tax $400,000, Corporate Franchise Tax $650,000
Encourage contributions of real property made for conservation purposes - $125,000
Yep, "deductions for the rich" all right. Teachers, low and middle income, elderly, conservation, Indian reservations.
Broad bipartisan support, passed unanimously--but you think it is "for the rich". It took all of about 6 minutes to look this up--you COULD have done the same--but you didn't--you just parroted the "class warfare card".
You obviously don't think there is anything wrong with the State taking in MORE MONEY THAN IT NEEDS (that's a SURPLUS), and not cutting back to realistic levels. Perhaps you would rather go back to when the State was running a DEFICIT--PRE-PAWLENTY?
Even the Red Star has given up on that one!
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 23 2007,1:32 pm
"TEAM doesn't want accountability. Period. "So no middle ground with TTT.
How do you know they do not want accountability?
Have you called them?
Have you attended a meeting?
Have you gone to any school board meetings ever?
LEARN and TEAM should meet and discuss things before the vote.
Remember this is not about LEARN or TEAM, it is about children.
Jim,
This is not a red or blue issue-both sides have already announced the support for the referendum.
Lets quit wasting time on Rhetoric and do what is best for our children.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 23 2007,2:41 pm
QUOTE
LEARN and TEAM should meet and discuss things before the vote.
Are you for real? What, at this point in the game, two weeks from today could possibly be accomplished? The ballots are made, the non-specifics have remained non-specific. Wouldn't it make more sense/cents for us to VOTE NO and take the year to figure out what everyone wants and then together come back NEXT year in a united front to ask for a referendum and how much people are willing to spend?
QUOTE
Remember this is not about LEARN or TEAM, it is about children.
It IS about students, not just a select few but all students. There's the ole "guilt" yactic, it's so apparent that you haven't done your homework on the issues, yet want to try to "convince" people that you know what you are talking about just by saying something so simplistic and TEAM motivated as
QUOTE
We need to consider the children,
What I'm hearing you say is that IF LEARN goes to a school board meeting and speaks to TEAM then LEARN will magically "see the light?!" and change our thinking to agree with TEAM? Come on, do you have ANY idea how much time LEARN has spent on finding credible information? Let me answer that for you.....No....no, you don't. We don't need to honk our own horns in order to help voters be informed on both sides of the issue.
Our paychecks won't go up or down depending on this vote. Our ONLY agenda is about having choices about this community as a whole and our children's education as a whole. We, LEARN, are the ones that do this not just for the students but for our community as a whole.
It wasn't LEARN that spent OUR tax dollars on pro-referendum propaganda. Our copies for our pamphlets, right down to our generic hand-made signs, comes out of our pocket not the taxpayers. Believe me...... we are cost efficient and are trying to lead by example. Thus far in the game it hasn't paid for us in the community or the District to just keep throwing money away for the same stuff. We want better for our tax dollars, the more things stay the same the more things stay the same. That's not working anymore.
If you have been paying attention, the main things we want is a voice in the direction we are going which includes accountability from:
our administration on EXACTLY what will be cut with a yes or no vote,
our school board that we voted in to represent all of the people in our district, not just a few.
our teachers with some sort of guarantees that our students are taught enough information that they do not have to take a remedial Math or Reading class once they get into college.
QUOTE
Lets quit wasting time on Rhetoric
QUOTE
if our soldiers lost a battle in Iraq, we would not take away their guns and give them knives to continue with the battle.
Poor, poor analogy. How about we just stick to our referendum issues?Just a thought.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 23 2007,3:51 pm
(MADDOG @ Oct. 19 2007,9:56 am)
QUOTE
I wonder if the DEMs will announce that they endorse the referendum also?
QUOTE
Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:00 AM CDT
Members of the Freeborn County Democrat-Farmer-Labor Party in attendance at the organization’s meeting last Thursday voted to endorse the Albert Lea School District operating levy, which comes before voters as a referendum Nov. 6.
< yep >
Members of the Freeborn County Democrat-Farmer-Labor Party in attendance at the organization’s meeting last Thursday voted to endorse the Albert Lea School District operating levy, which comes before voters as a referendum Nov. 6.
< yep >
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 23 2007,3:59 pm
QUOTE
Lets quit wasting time on Rhetoric and do what is best for our children.
So.......when YOU support something, (without bothering to cite WHY, other than "it's for the children")it is "best for our children"--and when somebody ELSE makes a point, it is "rhetoric"? QUOTE
Jim,
This is not a red or blue issue-both sides have already announced the support for the referendum.
Lets quit wasting time on Rhetoric and do what is best for our children.
Excuse me, I wasn't addressing you--I was correcting the misinformation Ned Kelly put out. My response wasn't a "red or blue issue" either--just correcting bad information.This is not a red or blue issue-both sides have already announced the support for the referendum.
Lets quit wasting time on Rhetoric and do what is best for our children.
You have a problem with the truth?
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 23 2007,4:31 pm
Are you for real? What, at this point in the game, two weeks from today could possibly be accomplished? I am for real. two weeks is alot of time to come together and start a plan-together.
If everyone wants what is best for our children-then two weeks should be plenty of time to talk and work things out.
I must have misjudged you and the group LEARN. Your response sounds so defensive.
"What I'm hearing you say is that IF LEARN goes to a school board meeting and speaks to TEAM then LEARN will magically "see the light?!" and change our thinking to agree with TEAM? "
No, only a defensive person would see that. It can be the other way around-TEAM can go to LEARN-it really does not matter-what matters is again the children.
I do not think a magic light will turn either group around, but more children first thinking together will bring a "common ground"
I am not a part of either group, but rather a on the fence group trying to understand the thinking of both groups.
You have a problem with the truth?
Jim,
No problem with the truth. I am not supporting something-again just trying to find out about both groups.
Come on, do you have ANY idea how much time LEARN has spent on finding credible information? Let me answer that for you.....No....no, you don't.
Again why all the anger
I was given all the information on line by Jim the other day-remember-It represented what LEARN is all about.
I also found out about TEAM.
I will say that TEAM is not as angry in responding as LEARN.
I hope you will still give a second thought to trying to come together prior to the vote.
It is important to find common ground.
As much as you hate to hear the word children used in this-It really is about them.
Please step back for a minute, breathe, count to ten, and then see if a group meeting could help.
Posted by january on Oct. 23 2007,4:41 pm
Stand 44 and What the:I am not a member of TEAM or a member of LEARN.
Having said that, let me say this.
No one from the Superintendent to the School Board to TEAM members have EVER, EVER discussed No Child Left Behind, Minnesota Comprehensive Assessment, ACT test scores in a meaningful way until LEARN was created.
Nor have they ever discussed the local and national trends toward grade inflation. You know, where teachers give away grades.
You will also note that on the Minnesota Dept of Education web site the state keeps track of standarized test scores and NOT the letter grades children receive in school. WHY?
Because standarized tests is the only real comparison that can be objectively used to compare.
Grades are subjective data and test scores are objective data.
We have heard only excuses from Superintendent Prescott and School Board members why our District FLUNKED NCLB. I would like to ask this: Why then has
USC PASSED
Glenville/Emmons PASSED
Alden/Conger PASSED
Albert Lea FAILED
TEAMs entire campaign is based on vote yes to keep the same quality of education we now have.
Being labeled by the State Of Minnesota as a failing school district is not quality, period!
You can spin it, market it, bake it and shake it....Albert Lea schools failed. ALHS failed 3 years in a row. That is a pattern. You can put fancy words on it, make excuses for it, get large groups of people to follow the rhetoric. But, until we stop enabling we will continue to be a part of the problem.
How can we even consider spending time, energy and resources to have actual college courses taught BY Albert Lea High School mastered teachers at Albert Lea High School when standarized tests are telling each and everyone of us that we have to focus on the core curriculum
Post secondary options is a program available to EVERY high school student in Minnesota.
Students can take college courses while in high school for free. Any student, anywhere.
Many students take post secondary options on-line and they too get it for free.
Alden Conger has post secondary options
Glenville/Emmons has post secondary options
USC has post secondary options
Every one has post secondary options.
Almost 60% of District 241 teachers have their masters. Utilize their education and experience to help those struggling and below average children.
LEARN has done their homework. How do you argue with Dept of Education data? Comparisons to every school in the State of Minnesota ? How do you reconcile outcomes of failure for the past 3 years at ALHS and then rally behind that failure?
Keeping the same quality of education that we currently have is ridiculous.
LEARN members have decided to keep their identities anonymous.
Tonya Lynch in her article stated that some of the group members are teachers.
What exactly do you think would happen to those teachers if their views were made public? What would happen to a businessman if his views were made public?
If one goes against the grain one can suffer consequences.
Economic consequences.
No one is stupid here and that is the first thing on the table.
TEAM should not attempt to "out" anyone. It is a childish tactic.
If LEARN choses to remain anonymous so be it. The most important thing to me is the dialogue.
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 23 2007,4:42 pm
Again, good post whatthe. Anger and negativity is all that Jim Hansen and Bianca posts. Both will be very quick to respond with nasty name calling and low life tactics and yet they encourage others to get involoved with whatever it is they are blowing about at the time. But, the first time you disagree or respond in a way they don't like-there intelligence level shines through.
(you've seen there posts, you know what I mean.)
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 23 2007,4:48 pm
^What's your name?
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 23 2007,4:52 pm
Why?
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 23 2007,5:04 pm
Anti-Liberal QUOTE
there intelligence level shines through.
Are you a product of th Albert Lea School system? Are you currently enrolled in college? I normally wouldn't correct you--but since you want to make an issue of it--perhaps you should have spent more time learning English, Grammar, and Spelling.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 23 2007,5:16 pm
QUOTE
I must have misjudged you and the group LEARN. Your response sounds so defensive.
The response of one is not necessarily representative of all. Everyone has their own way of expressing themselves.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 23 2007,5:23 pm
(january @ Oct. 23 2007,4:41 pm)
QUOTE
Nor have they ever discussed the local and national trends toward grade inflation. You know, where teachers give away grades.
USC PASSED
Glenville/Emmons PASSED
Alden/Conger PASSED
Albert Lea FAILED
TEAMs entire campaign is based on vote yes to keep the same quality of education we now have.
Being labeled by the State Of Minnesota as a failing school district is not quality, period!
You can spin it, market it, bake it and shake it....Albert Lea schools failed. ALHS failed 3 years in a row. That is a pattern. You can put fancy words on it, make excuses for it, get large groups of people to follow the rhetoric. But, until we stop enabling we will continue to be a part of the problem.
How can we even consider spending time, energy and resources to have actual college courses taught BY Albert Lea High School mastered teachers at Albert Lea High School when standarized tests are telling each and everyone of us that we have to focus on the core curriculum
Post secondary options is a program available to EVERY high school student in Minnesota.
Students can take college courses while in high school for free. Any student, anywhere.
Many students take post secondary options on-line and they too get it for free.
Alden Conger has post secondary options
Glenville/Emmons has post secondary options
USC has post secondary options
Every one has post secondary options.
Almost 60% of District 241 teachers have their masters. Utilize their education and experience to help those struggling and below average children.
LEARN has done their homework. How do you argue with Dept of Education data? Comparisons to every school in the State of Minnesota ? How do you reconcile outcomes of failure for the past 3 years at ALHS and then rally behind that failure?
Keeping the same quality of education that we currently have is ridiculous.
LEARN members have decided to keep their identities anonymous.
Tonya Lynch in her article stated that some of the group members are teachers.
What exactly do you think would happen to those teachers if their views were made public? What would happen to a businessman if his views were made public?
If one goes against the grain one can suffer consequences.
Economic consequences.
No one is stupid here and that is the first thing on the table.
TEAM should not attempt to "out" anyone. It is a childish tactic.
If LEARN choses to remain anonymous so be it. The most important thing to me is the dialogue.
USC PASSED
Glenville/Emmons PASSED
Alden/Conger PASSED
Albert Lea FAILED
TEAMs entire campaign is based on vote yes to keep the same quality of education we now have.
Being labeled by the State Of Minnesota as a failing school district is not quality, period!
You can spin it, market it, bake it and shake it....Albert Lea schools failed. ALHS failed 3 years in a row. That is a pattern. You can put fancy words on it, make excuses for it, get large groups of people to follow the rhetoric. But, until we stop enabling we will continue to be a part of the problem.
How can we even consider spending time, energy and resources to have actual college courses taught BY Albert Lea High School mastered teachers at Albert Lea High School when standarized tests are telling each and everyone of us that we have to focus on the core curriculum
Post secondary options is a program available to EVERY high school student in Minnesota.
Students can take college courses while in high school for free. Any student, anywhere.
Many students take post secondary options on-line and they too get it for free.
Alden Conger has post secondary options
Glenville/Emmons has post secondary options
USC has post secondary options
Every one has post secondary options.
Almost 60% of District 241 teachers have their masters. Utilize their education and experience to help those struggling and below average children.
LEARN has done their homework. How do you argue with Dept of Education data? Comparisons to every school in the State of Minnesota ? How do you reconcile outcomes of failure for the past 3 years at ALHS and then rally behind that failure?
Keeping the same quality of education that we currently have is ridiculous.
LEARN members have decided to keep their identities anonymous.
Tonya Lynch in her article stated that some of the group members are teachers.
What exactly do you think would happen to those teachers if their views were made public? What would happen to a businessman if his views were made public?
If one goes against the grain one can suffer consequences.
Economic consequences.
No one is stupid here and that is the first thing on the table.
TEAM should not attempt to "out" anyone. It is a childish tactic.
If LEARN choses to remain anonymous so be it. The most important thing to me is the dialogue.
January,
You have asked a lot of $64,000.00 questions. I will do my best to answer the ones I can, but please check on the data yourself as I am doing this from what I know.
I have heard the school board members, principals, and the Superintendent all speak to NCLB and MCA's. I have found it to be meaningful when i have spoken with them. I have seen the data not only from the district website or district documents, but also from the state website. What the district is doing to improve in on the MCA's is incredible in my opinion, but change comes slowly. As for the ACT, I cannot speak with authority on that. I do remember that Minnesota has consistently ranked very well in education nationally (top 5 for most years I head the data).
As far as grade inflation goes, I don't know so much that it is an intentional thing. I remember being graded on tests and homework assignments. We had very few group projects or presentations when I was in school. It was the standard "sit and get" school. Now their seems to be a huge emphasis on how things are taught as brain research tells us that students learn in different ways and that teachers need to consider things like "Multiple Intelligences". I think the fact that so many grades are group grades, students are 1)producing better projects (working in teams works and prepares them for real life work) is more common and thus better grades. I don't think teachers sit around and discuss how to raise their students grades by lowering the bar (at least I hope not).
I agree with you about the importance of standardized test. Well put!
Understanding NCLB and not passing NCLB is a complicated issue. I agree that the school needs to pass. With that said, at the high school, kids are given the MCA tests in the spring. These are the tests that the school is graded on for passing or failing. These tests have not mattered yet to the students. They don't need to pass them to graduate... yet. This is changing, but for the past few years the school district has been in a transition for the BST's to the MCA's. I know for a fact that many of the students taking the MCA's, knowing that they do not affect the kids one bit, have simply put their name on their test and that was it. There is no way that they could pass without taking the test, but these test scores of zero count against the school for passing or failing. In short, the MCA's are not yet an accurate reflection of how the school is performing.
Sorry.. I have to go now, but I may get back to this.
Posted by january on Oct. 23 2007,6:05 pm
Tonya Lynch' guest column article in the Tribune today was informative, persuasive, on point. As a tax payer it certainly gives me pause.
Posted by medic on Oct. 23 2007,6:31 pm
As a tax payer, does it not give everybody pause when 241 leader goes on TV and just says, we'll just ask again next year. Please dont forget he was asked, what now and that was his response. Is he not the head person for 241. Has anyone asked TEAM about that yet. They have not come to my house yet. Would any TEAM member like to answer this. You have had since last time this did not pass to think of an answer, would sure like to hear it.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 23 2007,6:49 pm
LEARN to vote NO this year.
Posted by january on Oct. 23 2007,9:00 pm
Stand 44It states on the State of Minn Education website that District 241 AYP: NOT making Adequate Yearly Progress: Needs Improvement.
And I quote " Once identified for improvement, schools must develop two year school improvement plans designed to improve each subgroups achievement. Title I schools must offer public school choice. If schools do not make AYP after one year of being in School Improvement they continue for a second year with their school improvement plans. Title I schools must offer supplemental services such as tutoring. In addition to school choice to economically disadvantaged students. Schools not making AYP for two years after entering school improvement will be identified for corrective action. "
(In my own words), Corrective Action call for changes. Some changes may include: replacing school staff, adopting a new curriculum, decreasing school level management authority and extending the school day or year. After one year and no improvement the next sanction level goes to Restructuring
(In my own words), Restucturing involves at least one of the following
#1 replacing all or most school staff who are relevant to the failure to make AYP
#2 Contract with a management company to operate the school.
#3 Reopen the school as a public charter school
#4 Other major restructuring actions that involve significant changes to staffing and governance.
Noteworthy here is that the bar is raised every year in No Child Left Behind performance mandates.
Simply said the test gets harder each year.
This District is required to have an improvement plan, assess it and implement it. The State of Minn Ed offers help to Districts like ours for ways to conceive and implement a corrective plan.
As you can see from the above progressive sanctions we have a lot to lose, if we continue to fail.
Minnesota Comprehensive Test II are tests that measure students progress toward academic standards and meets the requirements of NCLB. They are used to determine AYP.
Basic Skills Tests are being changed to the GRAD test and these are tests students need to pass in order to graduate.
ACT are college entrance tests that most schools in our area of the country require prior to college acceptance/admittance.
Minnesota led the nation in ACT composite scores this year. ALHS composite scores this year were once again below State average. Being below state composite scores is a pattern.
It has been estimated that a 30% higher grade is given today as compared to 1990 in the US. Grade inflation is rampant everywhere.
A corner stone of the most successful schools is that high achievement is an expectation for every student.
It starts from the top.
The mantra from TEAM has been Vote yes to keep the same quality of education that we now have.
Sally Ehrahardt, in her tribune article, has continually singled out 3 groups of students that she blames for our school district not passing NCLB: poor students, hispanic students and special education studens.
These are the 3 predominately targeted groups in NCLB.
Instead of utilizing a strategy to blame these most vulnerable among us how about if we try to help them.
No Child Left Behind is a both highly debated and hated issue.
For years all Administrators and Board members had to say was that we have a really good school system.
Look at all the stuff we have.
Look at all the classes we offer.
Of course it is quality. We have 5 or 6 or 7 Valadictorians.
Everyone here is getting A's and B's.
No doubt about it the top students in any school anywhere will succeed. No debate there.
A truly great school is measured by how we help and treat those that need our help the most
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 23 2007,10:10 pm
(january @ Oct. 23 2007,9:00 pm)
QUOTE
Minnesota led the nation in ACT composite scores this year. ALHS composite scores this year were once again below State average. Being below state composite scores is a pattern.
January,
I like your thinking. It isn't simply a "they are wrong, we are right" approach to this discussion. I really do appreciate that.
Let me ask you about the ACT scores.
I like sports so please allow me to use a sports analogy. If an athletic team finished in 6th place in their conference of 10 teams, that would be below average. But let's say that the 5 teams above them in their conference were the top five teams in the state. Would you be asking for changes in the coaching staff?
Minnesota is as you explained the tops in ACT scores, a standardized test of academic achievement. If a school is below average in Minnesota, it is still quite likely that they are far above average nationally. Not every school can be in the top half. It is even harder to do so in a state that excels the way Minnesota does.
I asked our state representative about school funding and why the cities schools get so much more of our tax dollars than schools like Albert Lea. She explained that the way the formula is written, all schools are eligible for that money in theory, but the formula favors the cities schools as they are the only ones who meet certain requirements for that money. I don't have the numbers, but I do know that legislators from the metro area outnumber those from the rural areas. This great disparity in funding may continue for a long time.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 23 2007,10:17 pm
(medic @ Oct. 23 2007,6:31 pm)
QUOTE
As a tax payer, does it not give everybody pause when 241 leader goes on TV and just says, we'll just ask again next year. Please dont forget he was asked, what now and that was his response. Is he not the head person for 241. Has anyone asked TEAM about that yet. They have not come to my house yet. Would any TEAM member like to answer this. You have had since last time this did not pass to think of an answer, would sure like to hear it.
My question for anyone who was offended or even surprised by his statement is this... What should he have said?
The school district was asking for money they believed they needed. They didn't get it. What was he supposed to say? What could he have said that would have appeased all those that worked hard on the referendum effort and that wouldn't have offended you?
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 23 2007,10:57 pm
(january @ Oct. 23 2007,4:41 pm)
QUOTE
How can we even consider spending time, energy and resources to have actual college courses taught BY Albert Lea High School mastered teachers at Albert Lea High School when standarized tests are telling each and everyone of us that we have to focus on the core curriculum
Almost 60% of District 241 teachers have their masters. Utilize their education and experience to help those struggling and below average children.
LEARN members have decided to keep their identities anonymous.
Tonya Lynch in her article stated that some of the group members are teachers.
What exactly do you think would happen to those teachers if their views were made public? What would happen to a businessman if his views were made public?
Almost 60% of District 241 teachers have their masters. Utilize their education and experience to help those struggling and below average children.
LEARN members have decided to keep their identities anonymous.
Tonya Lynch in her article stated that some of the group members are teachers.
What exactly do you think would happen to those teachers if their views were made public? What would happen to a businessman if his views were made public?
January,
I wanted to get back to some of your thoughts from earlier.
The classes that are taught for college credit are American Government, American History, European history, and Science courses like Biology and physics. English courses that study the renaissance (the course is called humanities) and the classics. Calculus, and I think even a Family and Consumer science class. I know I am not listing them all, but by and large these college in the schools courses are what most would consider core curriculum. Also, if ALHS didn't offer these course, many more students would go Post Secondary and ALHS would lose more students. More importantly, these students would miss out on valuable high school experiences that do not come out of a textbook. There is more to a student than gaining curriculum knowledge. There is also social and emotional learning that occurs.
No one, and I mean no one has ever asked me what the second article of the Constitution is about. However, I have had to, many times in my adult life had to deal with emotional situations, times when I needed to work extra hard to get things done, and many times work with others. None of this came out of a curriculum or textbook. However, I can look back and be assured that my experiences in the social realm from high school and my experiences in athletics and extra curricular areas have served me well. By the way, the article of the Constitution describes the Executive Branch. I learned that in high school but nobody really cares about that.
I remember hearing a nationally renowned coach give a seminar one time. He started by saying that the first "law of education is 'When the student is ready, the teacher will appear'". Simply put, teachers cannot teach students who are not ready to learn. People in general need to have their needs met before they can reach what Bloom has listed on his taxonomy (Sophomore - psychology). These needs include social and emotional needs. I am not a tree hugger, and I am not a bleeding heart liberal. I do consider myself to be a realist.
One other point about the college in the schools courses. Some of the students are ready for more of a challenge than just the basics. These courses allow the district to meet student's needs where they are at the high end.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 23 2007,11:07 pm
(january @ Oct. 23 2007,4:41 pm)
QUOTE
What exactly do you think would happen to those teachers if their views were made public? What would happen to a businessman if his views were made public?
If one goes against the grain one can suffer consequences.
If one goes against the grain one can suffer consequences.
Opps! I forgot to address this one.
What would happen??? I would hope that there could be a professional discussion. I would hope that we can trust the people around us in our places of employment to agree to disagree, agreeably.
I coached a few different sports teams in other towns. One rule of thumb for a coach was the following: If you get a letter or a phone call, either positive or negative, and the person doesn't have the courage of their convictions to put their name on it, throw it out.
Now this forum is totally different in my eyes. This forum was designed to allow for a person's id to be kept out. I have been quoted in the paper on a number of issues and numerous times. In a newspaper, it is only right to put your name on your ideas. I was astonished that the paper printed the information that they did without names.
Kudos to Tanya Lynch for stepping up and leading by putting her name out there. If you want to be against something and not have anyone know who you are, post it here. The paper should include names. Otherwise how can they verify the facts.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 24 2007,1:06 am
QUOTE
The point is that both TEAM and LEARN need to fight the good fight consistently during the years when there is no referendum. Not just in voting years. Otherwise they both appear disingenuous.
Whoa...hold your horses. If there wasn't a "special" referendum vote coming up, we wouldn't even be having this much discussion about the quality of education of the schools in our district. I probably care more than most on here about the philosophy of education, so I have indeed noticed how often people want to discuss or debate the issue during any year. Try discussing it with people during an election year. Try discussing it when there's a sheriff's campaign. Take a look at the hits on the "There goes the Country Club" and compare it this one.
Although I completely agree with this part of your statement"...need to fight the good fight consistently...
I disagree with TEAM and LEARN needing to be the majority ones fighting for the children of our community. We ALL need to be responsible and accountable for the fight.
As most of you already know, I am very passionate about our schools meeting and exceeding academic excellence in all grades. Where we still need the greatest amount of improvement is in our high school. I will not back down on that because it has and always will be my personal belief that our U.S. public high school system has not caught up to the needed demand of graduating students with the greatest potential to actively participate in a competitive work force.
This was a problem that was already becoming increasingly apparent when I was in college earning my degree in education. The problem isn't going away on it's own, it has only gotten worse and 99% of the time the majority of school districts want to continue down the same path, where everything is a priority in high school, so nothing actually is. That's where I see ALHS.
Realistically, if I had to point a finger or blame towards anyone for a lack of building accountability in our high school academic structure, it wouldn't be the teachers, it wouldn't be the school staff, the school board, TEAM or even the administration, it would be our community. We're the ones who buy into the philosophy of a "well rounded high school student." We're the ones who expect special ed, ELL, and free & reduced lunch students to drag down everyone else. We're the ones who think high school students don't care about academic excellence. We're the ones who think the problem is uncaring parents. And, most of all, we're the ones who think every student at ALHS is capable of putting in 16 hours a day fullfilling their obligations being prepared for school by 8:00 a.m., putting in a full school day, after or before school hours of participation in an extra cirricular activity, homework, studying, church, planning for their future, family, friends, volunteer, community involvement and maybe even a job. So, if they can't do all of this and be in the top 25% of their class, we blame them, their parents, their attitudes, their income, their environment outside of school, their language, and their disability.
But, when you look at the facts, the actual facts, approximately 60-70% of high school students are not tapping into special ed or extra cirricular school activities use of funds. Essentially, over half of our high school students are getting less out of their education dollars. It's the "rob Peter to pay Paul" scenario used in the allocation of per pupil spending.
Obviously, certain things are a need and a law for our high schools to provide for certain students, however some things aren't a need, no matter how others attempt to help me understand the justification for it.
It's ironic that we rarely complain about our elementary student achievements and rarely place blame outside the grade school environment for the percentage of students who don't meet or exceed in academics like we do at the high school level. We want them to have the environment to focus mainly on learning and it shows. How is it possible that we can go from having a higher number of students performing at or above grade level in elementary, then suddenly we lose 20%-50% of those students in high school? Can we afford to blame it on everything outside of the high school learning environment anymore? I don't think so.
The Federal Government and our State Government are waking up to what students NEED in order to be prepared for global economy competition. Their focus is ACADEMICS. Our State Government even recognizes the imperative need to improve and impliment more rigorous cirriculums and core academic focus in our high schools.
As of July, 2007 the MDE has set some goals. These are; Goal: Improve student achievement/prepare students to compete in a global economy, Goal: Closing the achievement gap, Goal: Improve teacher quality
"Minnesota has a proud history of leading the nation when it comes to student achievement.
While it might be easy to rest on our past success, tomorrow holds new challenges. If Minnesota and its job providers are going to stay competitive and continue to use technology to solve some of the biggest challenges facing our world, we need to start preparing our students to compete globally. The Minnesota Department of Education (MDE) is dedicated to taking our students from nation-leading to world competing.
New job growth in professional and high-tech
industries will demand an extra 10,500 college
graduates per year.
The number of college graduates retiring from the
Minnesota workforce will grow from 9,000 to 25,000
per year."
Further, the MDE has data available. For example in 2006, students in the state were at 79% proficiency in 3rd grade math and 28% proficiency in 11th grade math. By the year 2010, they'd like to see 81% of 3rd graders and 59% of 11th graders at proficiency level. By 2012, 94% and 79%.
In 2006 the percentage of students tested with ACT and who were college ready was 28%. By 2014 the MDE has determined a goal of 82% of students needing to be college ready.
What is District 241's potential to meet these goals? Oddly, when you look at the AYP results from 2006 to 2007 our schools declined, with only two schools missing the mark in 2006 and three in 2007. (The high school didn't make AYP in both 06 & 07.) The most interesting part of this is there was NO increase in proficiency level attainment from 2006 and 2007. Two years to meet the exact same level...how could we possibly add another school to our "not making it list?"
PLEASE pay attention folks because the criteria for students perform sufficienty to make AYP is going to increase each year and the probability of the consequences becoming more stringent is not too far away either. These are some HUGE challenges for our schools to meet over the next 7 years.
Finally, tossing the blame at the federal & state government for inadequate funding is not going to solve the problem. I agree, it should be better and one important thing to remember is those funding dollars are not for the "extra's" outside of academics. So, I have difficulty swallowing the concept that the reason for the current district blunder is only about inadequate funding, it is also about wanting funds for things that do not directly impact academic achievement levels. I don't believe there's absolutely nothing that could be cut, reduced, changed, or increased in order to improve academics.
Jim's idea speaks volumes about the potential for improvement in our district. It's not rocket science to know that a community could unite together and do figure out what's best for students with the opportunity to make some choices in selecting priorities. Example: If we could close an elementary school and save a million, we could have the option to choose local funding of 1 million for "wants" and another million for some extra help for students and teachers in core academic classes at the high school. Thus, a 2 million dollar referendum to support our kids and our community with a much better potential of providing a quality education that gives students more of what they NEED.
IMHO, we as a community have no right to sit back and place the blame on anyone other than ourselves for not paying attention to the changes that have occured from 60, 40, 20, even 5 years ago until today in the actual usable value of a high school diploma students receive.
When nothing changes, things remain the same...that's what this referendum says to me.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 24 2007,1:56 am
QUOTE
My question for anyone who was offended or even surprised by his statement is this... What should he have said?
IMO, it would have been more appropriate to say something to the affect of the people have spoken....this next year we'll have to go back to the table to see what the taxpayers would be more willing to agree upon. We'll need to try to work on a plan that will be more taxpayer friendly but still get the educational needs met within the school.
QUOTE
I was astonished that the paper printed the information that they did without names.
They shouldn't, as you said. But sometimes the Tribune and/or editor leans toward one side of an issue so much so that anything goes. A lot of the Tribs advertising costs are at stake here so they can't tip the applecart too much.
QUOTE
I can look back and be assured that my experiences in the social realm from high school and my experiences in athletics and extra curricular areas have served me well.
I have no doubt that this may well be true of a lot of people. IMO, this is even further proof that the district has got to give the taxpayers choices. Not everyone feels that higher fees for those that choose to play sports is unreasonable.
If you average out the number of students who are in a school sport vs those that are not you will find that a lot of our tax dollars are going to a select few. Another thing the school seems to leave out is that there are waivers for students to get their fees paid, this may not seem relevant but IMO it is. They put it to the public that many may not be able to afford these fees thus not be able to play, when that isn't exactly the case. They would come across as more credible if they gave all of the information rather than leaving some out.
QUOTE
'When the student is ready, the teacher will appear'".
I bet you can remember your favorite teachers also. I think the reason people remember their favorite teachers are that they taught in a way that sparked an interest to learn thus making them ready. Teachers play a vital role in everyone's life, a good teacher really does and can plant that seed. It is a teachers job to teach everyone, not just those willing to learn. I'm sure it gets frustrating at times, but it is their job that they chose hopefully knowing that any jobs aren't always going to come easy.
QUOTE
Now their seems to be a huge emphasis on how things are taught as brain research tells us that students learn in different ways and that teachers need to consider things like "Multiple Intelligences".
Thanks for your input. I look forward to more of your posts. IMO, your posts are opinions that a lot of people feel. The main thing for voters to do is find out information on what they are voting for by asking questions and going to different sources to find credible information.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 24 2007,2:04 am
QUOTE
No one, and I mean no one has ever asked me what the second article of the Constitution is about. However, I have had to, many times in my adult life had to deal with emotional situations, times when I needed to work extra hard to get things done, and many times work with others. None of this came out of a curriculum or textbook. However, I can look back and be assured that my experiences in the social realm from high school and my experiences in athletics and extra curricular areas have served me well. By the way, the article of the Constitution describes the Executive Branch. I learned that in high school but nobody really cares about that.
I am happy for you that your high school experiences in athletics and extra curriculars were productive. It is great to hear that you made the most of your 4 years in high school. I am also glad that you can remember something you learned in high school even though you don't find that as valuable. What is valuable is that you have the ability to write fluently, communicate effectively, comprehend and interpret written information, create your own opinion and express it, etc...all of which I bet you learned in your school years in core academic classes, including high school. Now tell me, how are your math skills?
You and I are on two opposite sides of the fence when it comes to the value of high school sports and extra cirricular activities in high school. I'm going to try my best not to ramble on as much as I do, so here's my theory. It is not logical to assert that students in high school will learn most everything about how to deal with things as an adult in 4 years of high school participation in sports or extra cirricular activities. These are as you said, "experiences." Experiences many high school students don't participate in, but that doesn't mean they are not going to learn how to deal with things as an adult.
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 24 2007,10:09 am
It is funny to me that someone who is the "voice" of LEARN was fired from the school district. Is this true Bianca??
Posted by bianca on Oct. 24 2007,10:31 am
ANTILIBERAL- Once again with your ad hominus abusive spew. Do you have anything of relevance to add ever? You might want to get your rumors / false allegations from a different source but from what you have posted in the past my guess is that this is another FAILED attempt by you to TRY to discredit myself and/or LEARN.For someone who tries to act like she is so positive you sure like to spew a lot of venom and now apparently rumors can be added to your list of unredeeming qualities. Do you honestly think I would be the voice of LEARN if I had been fired?
Get a grip.Sorry to disappoint you but I've never been fired from the school, the district or any other job in my life. How about you? Nevermind, that was sarcasm.
I'm sorry if you have some personal problem with me but just try, for the sake of trying, to stick to the issue of this thread. You've convinced me that you like to get the last word in, so have at it. I have no time for your childishness so if you would like to debate without juvenile behavior I'll be more than willing, but only if you can supply proof for anything you post in the form of for or against the referendum, otherwise I won't be playing your little bait and hook game.
Otherwise IMO, you've just discredited yourself with your false accusation. Good day.
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 24 2007,10:39 am
I merely heard through the grapevine and wanted clarification. I thought that was odd that someone heading up one side of the school board issue had past, bad relations with the school district in the form of employment.
So, thank you for the clarification.
Posted by Liberal on Oct. 24 2007,11:16 am
QUOTE
Editorial: How will baby boomers vote?
After voters rejected a levy increase last year that resulted in $1.1 million in Albert Lea School District cuts, a survey was taken.
According to the Tribune article last year there were no cuts made and instead a million dollars was taken from reserves.
I guess that's why we call it the fishwrap, and why the preacher and City Manager say not to trust the paper.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 24 2007,11:33 am
Bianca QUOTE
If you average out the number of students who are in a school sport vs those that are not you will find that a lot of our tax dollars are going to a select few.
Good point. There are 3589 students in the District. I'll have to make some assumptions here--you can put your own numbers on them.
Very few Elementary students play non-intramural sports--take them out of the equation--that leaves 1739 students in grades 7-12.
Very few middle school kids play non-intramural sports--but lets say for the sake of argument that they comprise 10% of the total--or 56 kids.
There are 1177 kids in high school. Half of them are girls--588 each.
Even with mandated equal participation opportunities, boys play most competitive sports in high school--lets weight that as 70% boys, 30% girls.
Assume that 30% of high school boys (176) play AT LEAST ONE non-intramural sport, and 10% of girls (58).
That means that on any given year, about 290 kids (8%) will be playing non-intramural sports. MANY kids will be going out for MORE than one sport. (As a "reasonableness test" of my assumptions, I went back to the District cuts for last year--by looking at their projected raises in fees for participation, and for families, it would seem that their numbers indicated 239 individuals--but it is unknown whether that included marchng band.)
IF that is the case, if we take the $403,000 athletic operating budget and divide by 290 participants, that comes to $1390 per participant.
I'm NOT advocating that all sports should be shut down--just looking into how much it costs per participant--relative to Bianca's post. The $1390 per participant SEEMS very high--but I can believe it. As stated, I've had to make some assumptions, but the figures seem to stand up. If anybody has any different figures, I'd like to see them. This is just a first try to gain insight into costs per pupil.
For those that say that "sports are necessary to build a well-rounded individual"--why not play INTRAMURAL sports? How does playing other schools make a "more well-rounded individual?
Posted by canvasback on Oct. 24 2007,11:59 am
Now I am confused . I pay fees for my kids to participate, I pay for uniforms, warm-ups etc. in most cases. The booster clubs (which are great in this town) pick up the tab for just about everything else, including but not limited to bus service...so. what am I missing? Parents volunteer for many things....what am I missing??
Posted by Botto 82 on Oct. 24 2007,11:59 am
Compare the Nielsen ratings for FOX NFL Sunday and Nova on PBS and you'd start to get a handle on it.
Posted by january on Oct. 24 2007,12:56 pm
Stand 44I have read with interest several of your posts. You have researched your subjects well. I appreciate that.
Looking at the big picture it is paramount that every one from the Superintendent to the Principals to the students to he taxpayers understand that NCLB mandates provide very specific sanctions for those schools not meeting AYP.
District 241 did not meet AYP and as a failing district are in Needs improvement status.
Sanctions will affect every area of this district.
So whose problem is that? It is everyones problem!!!
Like you said, "Understanding NCLB and not passing NCLB is a complicated issue. " Complicated or not it is a reality. And that reality is here, it is now.
ALHS has failed 3 years in a row. The tests (exception this year) are getting more difficult.
Let's get serious here. You make reference to the students that simply put their name on the tests and refuse to do anything more.
Whose problem is that? When the students themselves do not take it seriously and support it themselves how can anyone possibly expect taxpayers to support a system that allows this?
You have just made the best possible argument for those smaller more controllable schools.
Is that why Alden/Conger passed
Glenville/Emmons passed?
USC passed?
Do the smaller schools have better control of their students? Do their students take these tests more seriously? Is it filtered down to the students from the Administration that this is not a joke?
And further, I agree with you that similar to Bloom, Maslow determined that basic functions had to be met before higher level functions such as self actualization could be found.
I get the connection. How can a teacher effectively teach a student who slept all night in a freezing cold house, or did'nt have food to eat or electricity to do their homework or were afraid of getting beat up by someone.
Nothing is perfect. We live on earth, not heaven. We deal in realities and those are plentiful and challenging for everyone of us in every walk of life.
I suggest that the teachers or Administrators or whomever you are talking to study up on KIPP. It gives a encompassing picture of poor stuggling students/schools that have become models of success. And while reading page after page, I noted that the one thing that turned failure to success was this "Every child will meet your expectations" Every child walking through the door is a child of God. No child can help who or what circumstance they were born to.
And by the way, I am a tree hugger and a liberal.
Providing college in the classroom is a wonderful thing if schools can do this. But once again post seconary options are available at all schools. Students often spend part of their day at the college and part of their day at the high school. Several students receive instruction on line. Both provide for time within the school for socialization, clubs, organizations and sports.
Have you or anyone you know considered contacting Riverland or Mankato (example) and co-sponsor a course on tutoring? Top students could receive college credits for tutoring those failing students?
Talk about a win win situation.
Real life experiences.
When my child applied to Notre Dame they asked about special things she had done and they were looking very specifically into volunteerism.
You will find that instead of the "white bread well rounded good at everything, captain of everything" Ivy League schools are looking at students that focused more on one or two things they did very well.
Another suggestion may be to have students go to Nursing Homes, Assisted Living facilites, Day Care Centers, adopt a grand parent or a child and partner with them for a class.
This would not only be credit for the student and an excellent resume builder, it would be a way to bring our community together.
And finally I too want to address those individuals that have decided for what ever reason to remain anonymous. I respect their right.
I also believe it removes every stigma, bias, pre-judgement.
You do not know me. You know only the words I write.
I do not know you. Only the words you write.
Whether you are one or many, I am receiving a single unified message.
Posted by ANTILIBERAL on Oct. 24 2007,1:56 pm
January you write eloquently and I appreciate your posts. You are obviously very intelligent and well informed. You should be the voice of LEARN.
Excellent posting.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 24 2007,1:57 pm
College has changed a lot since I went. Because of grade inflation, grades no longer matter as much. Straight A's are not enough. Today schools want much more than grades. I worked 30-40 hours per week all through 9-12 grade and got no credit for it. In today's world it would mean much more as it should. I'm a workaholic now, but only for myself. I'm on target to bring home about $20k per month this year...that's take home pay... after taxes and SS... for all you newbies. Greed is the best motivator.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 24 2007,1:58 pm
January....Once again... Did you already know about KIPP schools or did you learn about them from the link I put on this thread?
Posted by busybee on Oct. 24 2007,2:06 pm
QUOTE
Now I am confused . I pay fees for my kids to participate, I pay for uniforms, warm-ups etc. in most cases. The booster clubs (which are great in this town) pick up the tab for just about everything else, including but not limited to bus service...so. what am I missing? Parents volunteer for many things....what am I missing??
Aren't teachers also the coaches of our high school sports? Could that be what's missing?
Posted by busybee on Oct. 24 2007,2:44 pm
QUOTE
I'm a workaholic now, but only for myself.
Yeah, there's nothing worse than being a workaholic for someone else...
QUOTE
I'm on target to bring home about $20k per month this year...that's take home pay... after taxes... for all you newbies.
Grossed over a million a few years back...just too bad that I didn't have any say over the take home pay spending...
Posted by bianca on Oct. 24 2007,4:05 pm
Wow, those puppets have did it again. Now it's the baby boomers fault but.......they can redeem themselves if they vote yes and show that they aren't selfish afterall. [U]Editorial: How will baby boomers vote?[/U]
Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:32 AM CDT
After voters rejected a levy increase last year that resulted in $1.1 million in Albert Lea School District cuts, a survey was taken.
If you speculated, you would think the age groups that voted against the proposed levy last year were elderly folks and young adults. Not so.
The survey found that the age group with the highest percentage of no voters was 45 to 60 — the baby boomers.
That’s surprising, considering how good they had it. Their parents grew up in the Great Depression, fought in World War II and gave generously to the education of their many children. The Greatest Generation knew it is an American tradition for one generation to pay for the education of the next generation. That’s how the system works.
Now that baby boomers’ children are in college or beyond and now that baby boomers are empty-nesters, apparently they don’t want to pay for the education of the next generation, according to the survey results.
But it really isn’t surprising if you believe that baby-boomers here are just like baby-boomers all over the United States. There are countless media reports that say the boomers have a reputation of being selfish. National surveys even show volunteerism percentages are higher among older and younger generations than baby boomers.
We think this reputation is wrong here. Baby boomers in Albert Lea are very much part of the community and are found volunteering most everywhere, including in the schools. The baby boomers in Albert Lea on Election Day have an opportunity to prove the national trends incorrect by voting in favor of the school levy.
Indeed, even if we look at the levy for selfish reasons, homeowners stand to lose home values by not supporting schools — try selling your house when parents don’t want to move here — and companies are less inclined to locate here — try attracting quality labor with bad schools. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Most local voters don’t like the funding situation the state government has left local school districts in. If you don’t like the situation for school funding, blame the state leaders, vote the bums out, but don’t hurt the local kids. Don’t be selfish. Vote to support your schools on Nov. 6.
Are they for real? Just can't seem to shake that "blame thing" they got going on. Those darn selfish baby boomers
Posted by medic on Oct. 24 2007,4:47 pm
Stand44 thanks for your post and giving me a quote. As far as what would make me happy with what Prescott had to say.. I guess their are many things he could have said, but he siad their plan was to ask again next year, not, we'll go back to the table and crunch some numbers, not maybe we'll have to trim the fat from the top. Let me ask you this. If you went to get a loan and they said not now, would you say I'll see you next year or what do I have to do to get this loan? Our would you just scare the loan officer and tell him his/her kids are going to suffer? Is that not what is brining done by 241?
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 24 2007,4:54 pm
Wow, those puppets have did it again. Why so spiteful against anyone that is not for LEARN.
I think that Busy Bee, January, and others have posted some great information for LEARN, but you just seem to be so bitter.
Can you have a civil discussion without either a. Having the last word or b. ridiculing the other. It would go a long way in showing people that LEARN is not just another Tonya Lynch gripe.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 24 2007,5:21 pm
It would be interesting to see what the demographics of last year's vote actually IS. "Most likely to vote no"? By what percent? If the 45-60 year olds voted no, and we assume the fixed-income 60+ voted no--that only leaves the younger voters to vote yes--those who have not yet experienced the reality of high property taxes.
QUOTE
Indeed, even if we look at the levy for selfish reasons, homeowners stand to lose home values by not supporting schools — try selling your house when parents don’t want to move here — and companies are less inclined to locate here — try attracting quality labor with bad schools.
It has apparently skipped their notice that the "quality labor" argument has failed to attract additional businesses. They may not have considered that high taxes may have kept some businesses from locating in the area--or homeowners from also locating here. Just yesterday, I heard from a buyer that decided to purchase a fairly expensive house in the Alden Conger school district, rather than here--because of a substantial difference in taxes. We thank him for being a part of the community--deciding to locate in the local area--but wish he could have lived within the school district.Do you suppose that those who talk about the "quality of life" of higher taxes avoid buying items made in Mexico, China, or India? Do you suppose they even CONSIDER that self-imposed taxes not only drives business from the State of Minnesota, but drives business overseas? How about trying LOW TAXES to bring business, investment, and families? "Good schools and a good jail" hasn't exactly been an effective sales pitch.
QUOTE
The Greatest Generation knew it is an American tradition for one generation to pay for the education of the next generation. That’s how the system works.
Puh-LEEZ! According to "History of Minnesota School Taxation" null< My Webpage > QUOTE
The chief initial effect was to shift the primary source of education funding from
the property tax to state taxes, thereby reducing disparities in property tax rates.
Spending disparities were essentially fixed in place at the 1971 level.
The property tax referred to here was the PERSONAL property tax--everything you owned. the property tax to state taxes, thereby reducing disparities in property tax rates.
Spending disparities were essentially fixed in place at the 1971 level.
The effect here is--when the tax was shifted to the State, the first "boomers" would have been 16--by the time it was implemented in 1973, the first boomers would be OUT of high school, and the biggest "boom" would have been substantially through.
The "Greatest Generation" DID make sacrifices to put "boomers" like us through school--but you know--most of us didn't play more than one sport--we rarely took "after school" extracurriculars. We didn't have our own cars--MOST families didn't have a SECOND car. Most kids WORKED at some job, or around the farm after school. We didn't demand much from the school system or the taxpayers, either.
Am I advocating going back to that time? No, but spare us the guilt trip of the "inter-generational compact."
Posted by Ginkgo on Oct. 24 2007,5:21 pm
The two things that made my daughters high school experience and education beyond the academics was Dance Team and Year Book. This is where she learned the skills of goals, teamwork, commitment, leadership (she was editor of the year book, and captain of the the dance team) and how to work with people that do not have the same committment that she did. All school activities like sports, dance, music, etc. can help students need for activity, enrich the experience of High School, give some a reason to stay and finish their high school education, make important memories for life. We had that opportunity, I would be sad that we would take that away from the future generation.Albert Lea schools are not failures. That term is never used by the department of education. The goal set for 2014 is that every student achieves proffiency in a test in math and reading. It is not a predictor of success in life, or that they will remember this information, just that they passed the test at one point in time. It is really a benchmark to see if they are progressing, and that the schools are progressing. Albert Lea students as a whole have passed the AYP every year. There have been subgroups that have not. In last springs testing it was a handfull of one of these subgroups that did not pass. Why?, that is what the school is assesing this fall (would have helped if the information had of been given before the school year started) and developing a plan to bring these children up to the level. The bench mark is an artifical goal set to help make a straingt line progress to achieve the goal for 2014. To make a comparison, Adrian Peterson of the Vikings only rushed for less than a 100 yards this last week, whereas he rushed for 224 some yards the week before. Does that mean he failed? No, does it mean that the goal for 1600 yards this year (or 100 per game) impossible, or less likely? If he does not reach 1600 yards this year, will he have failed. It is a goal.
The students in Albert Lea in comparison to other states testing (as done in the fall) are usually above most other states that use the same test. Our schools are doing a great job. Could they do better, or course they could. Will reducing the budget by $2 million dollars help them reach the goals? I doubt it. What will. Maybe you could help, since you have so many great ideas. Maybe you should show us the way. But don't withold the funding untill you have the new way proven. Almost 100 schools this year are seeking additional funding to keep the schools going. What do you know that all of them don't. For heaven's sake share it with the School Board members so they can change it unstead of complaining in this back water complaining session.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 24 2007,5:24 pm
QUOTE
Our would you just scare the loan officer and tell him his/her kids are going to suffer?
Awesome anology.
Thanks for the giggle!
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 24 2007,5:32 pm
January. Does USC test the percentage of special ed kids as 241? A few years back the answer was no. And I don't think there is still a firm stanard but it is getting tighter as the feds learned that some districts were avoiding all kids being tested. Have you looked at the special ed numbers in Alden and Glenville? Maybe we shoild refuse to take the high cost kids untill we are fully compensated for the cost?
Posted by busybee on Oct. 24 2007,5:53 pm
QUOTE
Wow, those puppets have did it again.
Why so spiteful against anyone that is not for LEARN.
Why so spiteful against anyone that is not for LEARN.
Spiteful? I guess I didn't interpet that statement as spiteful.
IMHO, that editorial is a prime example of some sick behavior.
The article is rude and disrespectful to people in the age group of 45-60 in our community.
It torque's me off that anyone would think it's appropriate to target a specific group in our community and state that their votes last year was made because they are SELFISH individuals!
If there's any selfish behavior being shown here, it's this editorial with the use of a specific group of people in our community in order to shame them into voting yes.
And...for me, my opinon has nothing to do with it not appearing to be LEARN supportive.
Posted by medic on Oct. 24 2007,6:49 pm
If I remember right, was it not the SS guard and the whole Hitler group that tried to force people into see things their way? Or the mob making an offer you can't refuse. Either way it was follow us or else. Is this not the same thing TEAM and 241 are doing? Your kids are going to suffer if you don't vote yes. Your city will suffer if you don't vote yes. 241 and the city have failed us, take a look at the numbers. Less kids going to school, less kids making the grade, no high paying jobs coming to the city. All points around us seem to be growing but we are not. May I point out the Farmland sie still is empty!! Is there a job in Albert Lea that will start lets say 25 people out at over 10.00 and hour with full bennifits? And if there is has this company been here for over 10 years? Look north, look east, I bet you can find this with in less the 40 miles of here. Why not here. Why should we be muscled into another dream of 241 and the city. Show us something for our money, instead of "we'll just ask again nxt year." Or we want to make the Farmland site a drawing point for A.L. The city is going no where, if i were there would be something on the Farmland site. Look how fast the new drug store went up. Nothing coming in and taxes going up, I guess I see the number of kids in 241 still going down given the track record of the last 5 years. So what does that do for my taxes when 241 needs more money when they flush this one away should they win. If thing remain the same we'll end up paying more again before this levy is paid for. Sorry this went a bit long.
Posted by january on Oct. 24 2007,6:56 pm
Busybee:Yes, I read the articles that you had on here for KIPP.
That is where I got the info. For the life of me I cannot find that posting.
Please re-enter it in a new post so that newcomers will be able to read it. It is wonderful.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 24 2007,7:45 pm
Newbee question...Forgive my ignorance, but what does IMO and ... I don't remember, was it IMOH... what do these stand for?
Posted by Glad I Left on Oct. 24 2007,7:52 pm
IMO = In My OpinionIMHO = In My Honest Opinion
Google any acronyms you don't understand and you can find it out pretty quickly.
Posted by Botto 82 on Oct. 24 2007,7:52 pm
IMO = In my opinionIMHO = In my humble opinion
Posted by january on Oct. 24 2007,7:52 pm
Stand 44I believe IMO stands for" in my opinion" and IMHO stands for " in my humble opinion". I think that is correct
Posted by january on Oct. 24 2007,7:57 pm
Wildjim:According to the MN Dept of Ed site, Special Education percentages for each individual district are:
Albert Lea................17%
Glenville/Emmons....15%
USC.........................15%
Alden/Conger..........18%
Posted by Liberal on Oct. 24 2007,8:20 pm
(january @ Oct. 24 2007,7:57 pm)
QUOTE
Wildjim:
According to the MN Dept of Ed site, Special Education percentages for each individual district are:
Albert Lea................17%
Glenville/Emmons....15%
USC.........................15%
Alden/Conger..........18%
According to the MN Dept of Ed site, Special Education percentages for each individual district are:
Albert Lea................17%
Glenville/Emmons....15%
USC.........................15%
Alden/Conger..........18%
Next you'll be telling us that those schools also have minority and low income students.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 24 2007,8:26 pm
JimMaybe I mised your answer but which Team or board meeting were you at to ask questions and spark dialog. Oh I forgot Ms Lynch said is is too late to work with anyone. Too bad more people had not read medics posts. This was not unknown
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 24 2007,8:28 pm
(jimhanson @ Oct. 24 2007,11:33 am)
QUOTE
Good point. There are 3589 students in the District. I'll have to make some assumptions here--you can put your own numbers on them.
Very few Elementary students play non-intramural sports--take them out of the equation--that leaves 1739 students in grades 7-12.
Very few middle school kids play non-intramural sports--but lets say for the sake of argument that they comprise 10% of the total--or 56 kids.
There are 1177 kids in high school. Half of them are girls--588 each.
Even with mandated equal participation opportunities, boys play most competitive sports in high school--lets weight that as 70% boys, 30% girls.
Assume that 30% of high school boys (176) play AT LEAST ONE non-intramural sport, and 10% of girls (58).
That means that on any given year, about 290 kids (8%) will be playing non-intramural sports. MANY kids will be going out for MORE than one sport. (As a "reasonableness test" of my assumptions, I went back to the District cuts for last year--by looking at their projected raises in fees for participation, and for families, it would seem that their numbers indicated 239 individuals--but it is unknown whether that included marchng band.)
IF that is the case, if we take the $403,000 athletic operating budget and divide by 290 participants, that comes to $1390 per participant.
Very few Elementary students play non-intramural sports--take them out of the equation--that leaves 1739 students in grades 7-12.
Very few middle school kids play non-intramural sports--but lets say for the sake of argument that they comprise 10% of the total--or 56 kids.
There are 1177 kids in high school. Half of them are girls--588 each.
Even with mandated equal participation opportunities, boys play most competitive sports in high school--lets weight that as 70% boys, 30% girls.
Assume that 30% of high school boys (176) play AT LEAST ONE non-intramural sport, and 10% of girls (58).
That means that on any given year, about 290 kids (8%) will be playing non-intramural sports. MANY kids will be going out for MORE than one sport. (As a "reasonableness test" of my assumptions, I went back to the District cuts for last year--by looking at their projected raises in fees for participation, and for families, it would seem that their numbers indicated 239 individuals--but it is unknown whether that included marchng band.)
IF that is the case, if we take the $403,000 athletic operating budget and divide by 290 participants, that comes to $1390 per participant.
Jimhanson
Some of your numbers are close, such as 1700+ secondary students. If your number 1177 high school kids is accurate, and I believe that it probably is or is close, add in the 450+ middle school kids and you are in the ball park. Well done.
As for middle school athletics, you shot quite low. If you attend simply the football games, you will see about 25 7th graders, and about 30 8th graders (sorry I don't have the total numbers, but I know that each grade has two teams of about 13+ kids). Then you can look at the 20 + girls that play volleyball, the 20 or so girls playing tennis, the 10+ kids running cross country and you have a pretty good chunk of kids. In the winter you will have four basketball teams (each with about 20 kids, 2 girls teams, and two boys teams), a wrestling team (which I cannot speak intelligently about), and we don't even count the hockey kids yet. In the spring is baseball, softball, boy's tennis, and the big one, track and field. I don't know about junior high golf (if there are teams or not). Now, many of the same kids participate in more than one sport, but many are also only interested in basketball or wrestling. Other students act as student managers and learn and practice organizational skills.
If my numbers are even close to being accurate, and I have watched all the fall sports except Cross Country (no home meets), then we are looking at about 105 students minimum just in the fall. That's a pretty good percentage of the school when you consider it is only one season and there are two still to come.
As for why we play other towns and not intramural, I truly do not know how to explain it if you don't know. It's about competition with others, it's about loyalty and supporting your town, it's about, it's about, it's about (ad nauseam), and yet it's about so much more that comes from the heart and the gut. I can't explain it, but I know it when I see it and more importantly I know it when I feel it.
I also disagree with your 70-30% break down of boy's v. girls. Once again I don't have the numbers, but come to think of it you were just grasping at straws as well. Have yo seen the number of girls on the dance team? The Volleyball courts are full. I think they had 37 girls out for tennis this fall. Girl's Soccer is obviously popular. The real numbers may actually show that we have more girls playing sports than boys. I know that the Girl's track team is far bigger than the boys.
I know some students personally (I won't say a lot, because I don't know that many students well) that do not participate because they cannot afford the fee of $160.00. When I explained to them that arrangements can be made through grants and such, these students have too much pride to ask for money. I find that to be both admirable that they want to be responsible for themselves, and sad that they do not participate.
Jim, while I disagree strongly with your numbers on participants, I would like to say that education is not something we ever see the full fruits of like buying a TV. When I buy a TV I know what I will get for my money. Education doesn't work that way. It may be years later that something that happened in high school clicks in an individual and that one moment that a teacher or coach didn't even consider a magnificent moment changes a life and makes all the costs worthwhile. It could be as simple as a compliment on one play that the kid remembers. I had a fairly decent basketball career. I attribute a lot of my life successes to my having to struggle to be good at basketball. When I look back at why I ever started liking basketball, I have to point to the one moment a jr.. high coach stopped practice to have all the players watch me shoot a lay-up because I did it correctly. He said "I want you all to watch how ****** shoots a lay-up. That's the way it's done boys". I'm sorry but you can't tell me extra-curricula's can't change a life.
P.s.... This is for everyone. I really like it when we keep it friendly. No one is going to change my mind on the referendum. I know what I know and I know what I think. I am certain that this is true of pretty much everybody here. I am not trying to change anyone's mind because most of us are here because we have an opinion to share. This entire thread is great when we show respect for everyone's opinion not matter how differently we view their thoughts. Keep it coming. This is great entertainment. Thank you.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 24 2007,8:28 pm
Or maybe I just want to learn. Why are albert leas special ed costs so much higher per student than thoses schools?
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 24 2007,8:29 pm
Or maybe I just want to learn. Why are albert leas special ed costs so much higher per student than thoses schools?
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 24 2007,8:34 pm
Or maybe I just want to learn. Why are albert leas special ed costs so much higher per student than thoses schools?I will check the site but my guess is Alden and Glenville might have higher hispanic numbers in part because of lower cost housing.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 24 2007,8:37 pm
(bianca @ Oct. 24 2007,1:56 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
My question for anyone who was offended or even surprised by his statement is this... What should he have said?
IMO, it would have been more appropriate to say something to the affect of the people have spoken....this next year we'll have to go back to the table to see what the taxpayers would be more willing to agree upon. We'll need to try to work on a plan that will be more taxpayer friendly but still get the educational needs met within the school. :dunno:
There was an extensive survey of a section f the community done. I am not certain who paid for it. The group that was hired to conduct the survey identified (I think) 309 very specific individuals. A person who was identified was called no less than 9 times before they were replaced on the list. From that survey, the data showed at which levels the community would support a referendum. So I think think the community was asked in (maybe non-democratic) way how much they would support in order to be tax payer friendly.
QUOTE
I can look back and be assured that my experiences in the social realm from high school and my experiences in athletics and extra curricular areas have served me well.
I have no doubt that this may well be true of a lot of people. IMO, this is even further proof that the district has got to give the taxpayers choices. Not everyone feels that higher fees for those that choose to play sports is unreasonable.
I understand that well. I just wish it wasn't so high ($160/sport. Ouch!)
QUOTE
'When the student is ready, the teacher will appear'".
I bet you can remember your favorite teachers also. I think the reason people remember their favorite teachers are that they taught in a way that sparked an interest to learn thus making them ready. Teachers play a vital role in everyone's life, a good teacher really does and can plant that seed. It is a teachers job to teach everyone, not just those willing to learn. I'm sure it gets frustrating at times, but it is their job that they chose hopefully knowing that any jobs aren't always going to come easy.
Great point here. I agree that great teachers can get to kids and get them fired up. For me it was the mono-toned math teacher. I do agree with you on this. My hope for every child is that they have at least one teacher like that. However I don't think that any teacher reaches all kids.
I tried adding my responses in with your response. I hope this works.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 24 2007,8:43 pm
Or maybe I just want to learn. Why are albert leas special ed costs so much higher per student than thoses schools?I will check the site but my guess is Alden and Glenville might have higher hispanic numbers in part because of lower cost housing.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 24 2007,8:49 pm
Liberal. Dept of ed site intereting. Thanks. I see I was wrong about hispanic students. Did you check out the graduation rate link? Glenville is blank AC has a really low target for special ed graduation. I wonder what's up?
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 24 2007,8:50 pm
(medic @ Oct. 24 2007,4:47 pm)
QUOTE
Stand44 thanks for your post and giving me a quote. As far as what would make me happy with what Prescott had to say.. I guess their are many things he could have said, but he siad their plan was to ask again next year, not, we'll go back to the table and crunch some numbers, not maybe we'll have to trim the fat from the top. Let me ask you this. If you went to get a loan and they said not now, would you say I'll see you next year or what do I have to do to get this loan? Our would you just scare the loan officer and tell him his/her kids are going to suffer? Is that not what is brining done by 241?
Medic. First of all, your Icon scares the crud out of me.
Second... you have a good analogy with the bank loan bit. I know Dr. P a little, and he is a very passionate man. I believe that he said what was on his mind and it didn't come across they way anyone would like. That being said I was not surprised by it at all. Dr. P is a good man and loves kids and education. I think he takes it hard when things don't go in the direction he wishes when it comes to education. Maybe the thing to do is to mention how much that quote hurt peoples perceptions of our district's admin and that maybe he should have two statements ready for election night so he doesn't offend so many this time around.
By the way... I might scare the loan officer as I get pretty passionate when things don't go my way either. It takes me a day or two to calm down. I however have the luxury of being able to say no to interviews thank God.
Posted by january on Oct. 24 2007,8:52 pm
Ginkgo:First of all I understand your being proud of your daughters accomplishments. I have heard some pretty terrific things about several of the extra-curriculars at ALHS. No doubt about it, those things add to our experiences, memories and our character.
Secondly, you are correct. Albert Lea Schools are not failures. They failed to make AYP. A noun and a verb are very different things indeed.
However, I do disagree with the tone of your letter concerning the application and results of Minnesota Comprehensive tests in Math and Reading.
It is certainly more serious than you gloss over.
It is also the tests that measure the students progress toward academic standards to meet requirements of NCLB.
Other sanctions are possible if this does not get successfully addressed.
I listed the sanctions' progression in a previous post.
Most recent results showed Reading proficiency results for Albert Lea to be 62% and the State average was 66%.
Math proficiency results for Albert Lea were 52% and the State average was 60%. Below state averages.
I do not consider that to be quality. Why would we want to keep the same quality that we now have when we are below State averages?
You mentioned that the majority of students passed but ...there have been subgroups that had not.
I am not sure that you understand what the No Child Left Behind philosophy is.
It means No Child will be left behind.
It means we have to help those children that have special needs, special circumstances.
It means we look at the challenges, assess it, develop a plan and implement that plan.
It means that if we do not take this very seriously and with the help of the State change it, serious consequences will follow.
It really is not just a benchmark as you put it. It is not an imaginary goal as you put it to help Minnesota achieve its goal of being totally proficient in 2014 and go beyond NCLB.
And finally, I think I have come up with some pretty darn good ideas that could be looked into.
Once again, why not have a collaborative effort between say Riverland and Minnesota State U at Mankato and ALHS to develop a college level course that can be provided at ALHS where the top students can tutor those children in "subgroups" for college credit?
Why not have a college level course at ALHS where students can partner with Nursing Homes, Assisted Living Facilities , the Hospital, Social Service Agencies, County and City Government, businesses, industries or Daycare Centers where students can partner with the specific entity and either tutor, teach, learn, etc. for college credit, real life experience and goodwill
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 24 2007,8:54 pm
(january @ Oct. 24 2007,12:56 pm)
QUOTE
&Stand 44
I have read with interest several of your posts. You have researched your subjects well. I appreciate that.
Looking at the big picture it is paramount that every one from the Superintendent to the Principals to the students to ;he taxpayers understand that NCLB mandates provide very specific sanctions for those schools not meeting AYP.
District 241 did not meet AYP and as a failing district are in Needs improvement status.
Sanctions will affect every area of this district.
So whose problem is that? It is everyones problem!!!
Like you said, "Understanding NCLB and not passing NCLB is a complicated issue. " Complicated or not it is a reality. And that reality is here, it is now.
ALHS has failed 3 years in a row. The tests (exception this year) are getting more difficult.
Let's get serious here. You make reference to the students that simply put their name on the tests and refuse to do anything more.
Whose problem is that? When the students themselves do not take it seriously and support it themselves how can anyone possibly expect taxpayers to support a system that allows this?
You have just made the best possible argument for those smaller more controllable schools.
Is that why Alden/Conger passed
Glenville/Emmons passed?
USC passed?
Do the smaller schools have better control of their students? Do their students take these tests more seriously? Is it filtered down to the students from the Administration that this is not a joke?
And further, I agree with you that similar to Bloom, Maslow determined that basic functions had to be met before higher level functions such as self actualization could be found.
I get the connection. How can a teacher effectively teach a student who slept all night in a freezing cold house, or did'nt have food to eat or electricity to do their homework or were afraid of getting beat up by someone.
Nothing is perfect. We live on earth, not heaven. We deal in realities and those are plentiful and challenging for everyone of us in every walk of life.
I suggest that the teachers or Administrators or whomever you are talking to study up on KIPP. It gives a encompassing picture of poor stuggling students/schools that have become models of success. And while reading page after page, I noted that the one thing that turned failure to success was this "Every child will meet your expectations" Every child walking through the door is a child of God. No child can help who or what circumstance they were born to.
And by the way, I am a tree hugger and a liberal.
Providing college in the classroom is a wonderful thing if schools can do this. But once again post seconary options are available at all schools. Students often spend part of their day at the college and part of their day at the high school. Several students receive instruction on line. Both provide for time within the school for socialization, clubs, organizations and sports.
Have you or anyone you know considered contacting Riverland or Mankato (example) and co-sponsor a course on tutoring? Top students could receive college credits for tutoring those failing students?
Talk about a win win situation.
Real life experiences.
When my child applied to Notre Dame they asked about special things she had done and they were looking very specifically into volunteerism.
You will find that instead of the "white bread well rounded good at everything, captain of everything" Ivy League schools are looking at students that focused more on one or two things they did very well.
Another suggestion may be to have students go to Nursing Homes, Assisted Living facilites, Day Care Centers, adopt a grand parent or a child and partner with them for a class.
This would not only be credit for the student and an excellent resume builder, it would be a way to bring our community together.
And finally I too want to address those individuals that have decided for what ever reason to remain anonymous. I respect their right.
I also believe it removes every stigma, bias, pre-judgement.
You do not know me. You know only the words I write.
I do not know you. Only the words you write.
Whether you are one or many, I am receiving a single unified message.
I have read with interest several of your posts. You have researched your subjects well. I appreciate that.
Looking at the big picture it is paramount that every one from the Superintendent to the Principals to the students to ;he taxpayers understand that NCLB mandates provide very specific sanctions for those schools not meeting AYP.
District 241 did not meet AYP and as a failing district are in Needs improvement status.
Sanctions will affect every area of this district.
So whose problem is that? It is everyones problem!!!
Like you said, "Understanding NCLB and not passing NCLB is a complicated issue. " Complicated or not it is a reality. And that reality is here, it is now.
ALHS has failed 3 years in a row. The tests (exception this year) are getting more difficult.
Let's get serious here. You make reference to the students that simply put their name on the tests and refuse to do anything more.
Whose problem is that? When the students themselves do not take it seriously and support it themselves how can anyone possibly expect taxpayers to support a system that allows this?
You have just made the best possible argument for those smaller more controllable schools.
Is that why Alden/Conger passed
Glenville/Emmons passed?
USC passed?
Do the smaller schools have better control of their students? Do their students take these tests more seriously? Is it filtered down to the students from the Administration that this is not a joke?
And further, I agree with you that similar to Bloom, Maslow determined that basic functions had to be met before higher level functions such as self actualization could be found.
I get the connection. How can a teacher effectively teach a student who slept all night in a freezing cold house, or did'nt have food to eat or electricity to do their homework or were afraid of getting beat up by someone.
Nothing is perfect. We live on earth, not heaven. We deal in realities and those are plentiful and challenging for everyone of us in every walk of life.
I suggest that the teachers or Administrators or whomever you are talking to study up on KIPP. It gives a encompassing picture of poor stuggling students/schools that have become models of success. And while reading page after page, I noted that the one thing that turned failure to success was this "Every child will meet your expectations" Every child walking through the door is a child of God. No child can help who or what circumstance they were born to.
And by the way, I am a tree hugger and a liberal.
Providing college in the classroom is a wonderful thing if schools can do this. But once again post seconary options are available at all schools. Students often spend part of their day at the college and part of their day at the high school. Several students receive instruction on line. Both provide for time within the school for socialization, clubs, organizations and sports.
Have you or anyone you know considered contacting Riverland or Mankato (example) and co-sponsor a course on tutoring? Top students could receive college credits for tutoring those failing students?
Talk about a win win situation.
Real life experiences.
When my child applied to Notre Dame they asked about special things she had done and they were looking very specifically into volunteerism.
You will find that instead of the "white bread well rounded good at everything, captain of everything" Ivy League schools are looking at students that focused more on one or two things they did very well.
Another suggestion may be to have students go to Nursing Homes, Assisted Living facilites, Day Care Centers, adopt a grand parent or a child and partner with them for a class.
This would not only be credit for the student and an excellent resume builder, it would be a way to bring our community together.
And finally I too want to address those individuals that have decided for what ever reason to remain anonymous. I respect their right.
I also believe it removes every stigma, bias, pre-judgement.
You do not know me. You know only the words I write.
I do not know you. Only the words you write.
Whether you are one or many, I am receiving a single unified message.
January,
It's tough to argue with you when I agree with most of your points and the ones I disagree with are still valid.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 24 2007,8:59 pm
Liberal. Dept of ed site intereting. Thanks. I see I was wrong about hispanic students. Did you check out the graduation rate link? Glenville is blank AC has a really low target for special ed graduation. I wonder what's up?
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 24 2007,9:03 pm
Hey everybody!!!! Great day at the thread! it's only 9:03 and I can get on with the rest of my evening. Good discussion everyone. I look forward to tomorrow's rounds. Thank you.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 24 2007,9:16 pm
(busybee @ Oct. 24 2007,1:06 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
The point is that both TEAM and LEARN need to fight the good fight consistently during the years when there is no referendum. Not just in voting years. Otherwise they both appear disingenuous.
Whoa...hold your horses. If there wasn't a "special" referendum vote coming up, we wouldn't even be having this much discussion about the quality of education of the schools in our district. I probably care more than most on here about the philosophy of education, so I have indeed noticed how often people want to discuss or debate the issue during any year. ...
IMHO, we as a community have no right to sit back and place the blame on anyone other than ourselves for not paying attention to the changes that have occured from 60, 40, 20, even 5 years ago until today in the actual usable value of a high school diploma students receive.
When nothing changes, things remain the same...that's what this referendum says to me.
BusyBee,
First off, thank you for your great input! Second... wow! Where do I start?
Much of what you said I agree whole heartily with. I just didn't say it as well as you. When I stated that TEAM and LEARN need to fight the good fight each year and not just in election years, what I meant was what you said when you wrote "we as a community have no right to sit back and place the blame on anyone other than ourselves for not paying attention to the changes that have occured from 60, 40, 20, even 5 years ago until today in the actual usable value of a high school diploma students receive."
It really does bother me that we only have this discussion in the community around referendum time. I am new to AL.com so maybe it is discussed here more frequently, but in the community we just let the days pass.
I think someone stated in this thread that TEAM doesn't care about accountability. I do not believe that one bit. I am pro referendum. I have worked on behalf of TEAM. I have spoken to the leaders of TEAM a lot. These are not unreasonable people. These are people who do not want to see a cut in funding. I think that given a week or two after all the referendum work is complete, that these people would love to start to evaluate what needs to be done to improve the quality of education in our community. That they would encourage the start of a community organization that supports education, education funding solutions, and yes accountability.
With that said, while going door to door, I was pleased to hear so many parents compliment how well prepared their child was for college. On one occasion, the parent was pleased to find out that her daughter would be allowed to skip a year of Math that is usually needed for the science field she is majoring in as she had been tested out of those courses. Mom couldn't believe the time and money they saved. She kept going on an on about the quality math teachers her daughter had at ALHS. It was quite a refreshing conversation.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 24 2007,9:20 pm
I just got around to reading the editorial. What a bunch of bias news writers?I can't believe that every writer at the Tribune is a 'yes, yes' man. Isn't there one writer there with the courage to write a rebuttal to their editor? I mean in their own words and beliefs, not just quoting other people. With all the staff and guest writers and not one of them willing to speak out against the powers that be at the Tribune?
What would Boone Pulbishing think?
bni@boonenewspapers.com
Posted by busybee on Oct. 24 2007,9:56 pm
Here you go January...< KIPP >
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 25 2007,12:57 am
(MADDOG @ Oct. 24 2007,9:20 pm)
QUOTE
I just got around to reading the editorial. What a bunch of bias news writers?
I can't believe that every writer at the Tribune is a 'yes, yes' man. Isn't there one writer there with the courage to write a rebuttal to their editor? I mean in their own words and beliefs, not just quoting other people. With all the staff and guest writers and not one of them willing to speak out against the powers that be at the Tribune?
What would Boone Pulbishing think?
bni@boonenewspapers.com
I can't believe that every writer at the Tribune is a 'yes, yes' man. Isn't there one writer there with the courage to write a rebuttal to their editor? I mean in their own words and beliefs, not just quoting other people. With all the staff and guest writers and not one of them willing to speak out against the powers that be at the Tribune?
What would Boone Pulbishing think?
bni@boonenewspapers.com
Maddog
Biased new writers don't write editorials. Editorials are opinions.
My guess is that if you write Boone with that they will judge you to be uninformed.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 25 2007,7:49 am
Are you for real? What, at this point in the game, two weeks from today could possibly be accomplished?-Tonya Lynch Does anyone know if LEARN and TEAM have gotten together?
With all the good dialogue going on it would make sense to have a group meeting and make a plan. The children really need the groups to find a middle ground that will help all.
Jim and Tonya-are you willing to step forward and meet with TEAM ( or Have TEAM meet with you) either way.
Republican party, Democratic party, Chamber, Paper, City, TEAM, Hospital, ALEDA all are backing the referendum. I have to think that they are all not puppets (Tonya's word)-It would seem a good idea to maybe get together with some of these groups and strategically talk about the future.
Again-Just a thought!
Posted by Liberal on Oct. 25 2007,8:08 am
The people in LEARN would have to be stupid to trust TEAM with knowing who they are. Look how many TEAM supporters have personally attacked LEARN supporters on this forum.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 25 2007,8:50 am
The time is getting close for the vote and I hope that vote does not ruin any relationships that we have with friends, family and neighbors. We all have a right to express our opinions on why we are voting the way we are. Nobody should be attacked on their concern for children because of how they will vote. Nobody should attack someone's intelligence for how they choose to vote. We all have our own reasons for voting how we will vote and should be respected. At least we have all looked into the issues and based our vote on what we feel is best.
We all have our own personal situations and have to vote accordingly and should not be attacked.
No matter how the vote turns out we will all have to live with it so we should all be able to stay civil and agree to disagree. But keep out personal attacks. Usually backfires anyway.
Happy Voting.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 25 2007,9:03 am
The time is getting close for the vote and I hope that vote does not ruin any relationships that we have with friends, family and neighbors. We all have a right to express our opinions on why we are voting the way we are. Nobody should be attacked on their concern for children because of how they will vote. Nobody should attack someone's intelligence for how they choose to vote. We all have our own reasons for voting how we will vote and should be respected. At least we have all looked into the issues and based our vote on what we feel is best.
We all have our own personal situations and have to vote accordingly and should not be attacked.
No matter how the vote turns out we will all have to live with it so we should all be able to stay civil and agree to disagree. But keep out personal attacks. Usually backfires anyway.
Happy Voting.
GREAT POST!
Posted by bianca on Oct. 25 2007,9:55 am
whatthe-QUOTE
What, at this point in the game, two weeks from today could possibly be accomplished?
I'll try to explain this based on my opinion, I'm not giving up with that idea but it works both ways. TEAM knows who I am, they know who jim is. I don't know about Jim but I've not received one phone call with this offer so I am led to believe they feel this would not work THIS year either.
It's 12 days before we vote, the ballots are made and votes have been made from absentee voters. It can't change in 12 days, no matter how much you wish it could be. There are just tooooo many issues to get figured out in 12 days. I'm sorry if you don't like that answer but we'll just have to go from here until after the election.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 25 2007,9:56 am
(MADDOG @ Oct. 24 2007,9:20 pm)
QUOTE
I just got around to reading the editorial. What a bunch of bias news writers?
I can't believe that every writer at the Tribune is a 'yes, yes' man. Isn't there one writer there with the courage to write a rebuttal to their editor? I mean in their own words and beliefs, not just quoting other people. With all the staff and guest writers and not one of them willing to speak out against the powers that be at the Tribune?
What would Boone Pulbishing think?
bni@boonenewspapers.com
I can't believe that every writer at the Tribune is a 'yes, yes' man. Isn't there one writer there with the courage to write a rebuttal to their editor? I mean in their own words and beliefs, not just quoting other people. With all the staff and guest writers and not one of them willing to speak out against the powers that be at the Tribune?
What would Boone Pulbishing think?
bni@boonenewspapers.com
Maddog
Biased new writers don't write editorials. Editorials are opinions.
My guess is that if you write Boone with that they will judge you to be uninformed.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 25 2007,10:06 am
QUOTE
Look how many TEAM supporters have personally attacked LEARN supporters on this forum.
Unfortunately this is becoming more and more true. I was told yesterday that this fellow had put his NO sign in the back of his truck and as soon as he did it a woman drove past and "flipped him off". Maybe this is why voting has to be done behind a curtain, so to speak.
QUOTE
Republican party, Democratic party, Chamber, Paper, City, TEAM, Hospital, ALEDA all are backing the referendum.
I posted on this in another thread but I think it needs repeating as long as this was brought up here now.
QUOTE
If you were to check out the names on rosters of these "groups" I can guarantee you that the same names would appear on numerous groups.
Take for example our home town boy Dan Dorman, he would make ALEDAS list, the republican list, the Chambers list and TEAMS list, possibly more.
Many people believe in Dan, proven by ALEDAS choice, they think that since he went to St. Paul he has the answers, connections and etc to all, when in fact he is no different than you or I as far as the fact that we all want the best for our kids. We just have different ways to get there.
Take for example our home town boy Dan Dorman, he would make ALEDAS list, the republican list, the Chambers list and TEAMS list, possibly more.
Many people believe in Dan, proven by ALEDAS choice, they think that since he went to St. Paul he has the answers, connections and etc to all, when in fact he is no different than you or I as far as the fact that we all want the best for our kids. We just have different ways to get there.
Posted by Botto 82 on Oct. 25 2007,10:29 am
Has TEAM even made an attempt at itemizing their needs? Or is "We want..." supposed to be good enough?What good ol' boy network is running this TEAM thing, anyway? Is that the mentality? Vote with us or you get flipped off (or worse)? WTF?
Posted by katlade on Oct. 25 2007,10:56 am
It does appear that the TEAM supporters are using some questionable tactics. I really have not heard anything about those supporting a no vote using the same tactics. Has anyone else heard anything? Like I said before - usually it backfires. I sure hope we don't have dueling planes with banners on voting day again. Seems kind of a waste. Anyone voting that day will already have made up their mind.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 25 2007,2:07 pm
Stand 44--thanks for your input--and thanks for your civility. I mentioned in the first line in the post that I would have to make some assumptions--and asked for corrections. The numbers for high school and middle school came from the District.QUOTE
As for middle school athletics, you shot quite low. If you attend simply the football games, you will see about 25 7th graders, and about 30 8th graders (sorry I don't have the total numbers, but I know that each grade has two teams of about 13+ kids). Then you can look at the 20 + girls that play volleyball, the 20 or so girls playing tennis, the 10+ kids running cross country and you have a pretty good chunk of kids. In the winter you will have four basketball teams (each with about 20 kids, 2 girls teams, and two boys teams), a wrestling team (which I cannot speak intelligently about), and we don't even count the hockey kids yet. In the spring is baseball, softball, boy's tennis, and the big one, track and field. I don't know about junior high golf (if there are teams or not). Now, many of the same kids participate in more than one sport, but many are also only interested in basketball or wrestling. Other students act as student managers and learn and practice organizational skills.
If my numbers are even close to being accurate, and I have watched all the fall sports except Cross Country (no home meets), then we are looking at about 105 students minimum just in the fall. That's a pretty good percentage of the school when you consider it is only one season and there are two still to come.
I was counting non-intramural participants. Are these intramural (within the school) or outside competitions? If my numbers are even close to being accurate, and I have watched all the fall sports except Cross Country (no home meets), then we are looking at about 105 students minimum just in the fall. That's a pretty good percentage of the school when you consider it is only one season and there are two still to come.
QUOTE
As for why we play other towns and not intramural, I truly do not know how to explain it if you don't know. It's about competition with others, it's about loyalty and supporting your town, it's about, it's about, it's about (ad nauseam), and yet it's about so much more that comes from the heart and the gut. I can't explain it, but I know it when I see it and more importantly I know it when I feel it.
YOU may feel it--others obviously do not. I don't believe that it is the responsibility of the taxpayers to provide a "good feeling" for kids about their school. The educational experience itself should teach kids that they can't always have what they want--simply because they WANT it. It should also teach kids COMPARISONS--if the choice is between better academics and athletics--academics should win--hands down. Is there a physical fitness benefit from athletics? Yes--but that can be satisfied by intramural competiton or even the dreaded "gym class". If Albert Lea dropped from the "Big Nine", who would notice? Who, outside some small towns in southern Minnesota, even KNOWS what the "Big Nine" IS?QUOTE
I also disagree with your 70-30% break down of boy's v. girls. Once again I don't have the numbers, but come to think of it you were just grasping at straws as well. Have yo seen the number of girls on the dance team? The Volleyball courts are full. I think they had 37 girls out for tennis this fall. Girl's Soccer is obviously popular. The real numbers may actually show that we have more girls playing sports than boys. I know that the Girl's track team is far bigger than the boys.
I take issue with your "grasping at straws" characterization. I said right away I would have to make some assumptions--and nobody has given better numbers. Do so, and we'll run with them--but you have to start SOMEWHERE. I'm sure there is a "Title IX" number somewhere showing participation--but I have to believe that girls participation is lower.Nobody disputes that one moment can be life-changing, and nobody I have heard of is for getting rid of all sports. The District shows examples of cost savings by eliminating specific sports--that might also be achieved in a cutback on those sports. It also shows the cost savings by going to intramural sports only, and dropping "Big Nine" competition. Kudos to the District for putting those numbers out there.
My wish--that we could actually MAKE those comparisons--would you rather have "Big Nine" sports, for example, or make kids walk two miles to school. The District has made its choice--it elected to keep the sports program intact and to make kids walk to school--inflicting maximum pain on the kids and parents to pressure for a new referendum. Now it wants MORE money to restore the bussing.
Maybe the District figures they are making "More well-rounded students" by giving them the "opportunity" to get exercise while walking to and from school.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 25 2007,2:47 pm
Stand 44--Your comments set me to thinking of alternatives.My objection to non-intramural sports is that they compete with academics for school district dollars. They are a big part of our budget, and favor a relatively few people. They are not preparing students for a career--the chances of a student making it in the pro leagues is minimal.
That said, I do agree that alternate activities do have value. I also agree that some kids can't afford to play sports.
As far as extra-curricular activities, there are a NUMBER of other, lesser-known activities that may or may not get funded by the school district. Someone mentioned Danceline and Yearbook. There might be value in a photography club, computer club, chess club, debate, etc. Personally, I'd like to see an aviation activity--Des Moines has an Aviation High School (kind of like FAME for the performing arts). It's a red-hot job market right now.
How to fund all of these activities? I could go along with a $100 per year stipend per pupil--for every year they are in the school district--and it could be accrued. Example: A student that has been in the district since Kindergarten gets to 10th grade. They would have $1100 to spend towards their extracurriculars--pretty good support.
The advantages:
1. Kids have the money to spend on extracurriculars on the things THEY want.
2. The money is distributed evenly to ALL kids with ALL interests--not just to "jocks".
3. It enables MORE activity choices.
4. Unpopular program? The kids don't "buy" it.
5. An incentive for kids to stay in the District--instead of open enrolling elsewhere.
6. An incentive for families to STAY here.
7. Well defined costs for the school district--they KNOW what is going to be spent--3589 kids=$358,900.
8. No more arguing about what is/is not important.
9. We don't have this argument every time a referendum comes up.
10. An incentive for families to LOCATE here.
11. It's a good teaching tool--having kids make CHOICES in life, instead of "I WANT". Want more than your budget allows? You have a choice--either cut back, or pay more.
You can adjust the numbers up or down--but it seems to make more sense than the "pick a number out of mid-air" or "but that's the way we've ALWAYS done it" that we are doing now.
Wouldn't that be more fair?
Posted by january on Oct. 25 2007,5:32 pm
Jim Hanson that is one of the best ideas I have heard of to date. Good thinking!!! Giving the students a stipend and allowing them to spend it on the acitivities they chose to pursue creates wonderful life lessons as well.
And the aviation activity. The University of North Dakota has a top program. It is cold, it is really cold in the Winter plus they have awesome hockey but students from the world attend to major in Aviation Science.
It is science based, it is technology based, it would be another school community parnering compact.
Now that would bring students here!!!
And along with the ideas of creating college courses for students to take designed to tutor struggling students.
I have always felt that this forum was a wonderful source of information. I know and have heard the rumblings that the people who post here are just negative. Of course there are negative people everywhere.
But some of the best and most innovative ideas have started here.
Posted by january on Oct. 25 2007,5:36 pm
Busybee:Thanks for the KIPP link. I sincerely hope that Stand 44 takes a look at it because it has such wonderful information.
He/she are indeed a positive individual who I think believes that most people just want someone to really listen to what they have to say.
Posted by january on Oct. 25 2007,5:53 pm
Stand 44You had previously posted a response to the ACT composite results. I believe you used a sports analogy to explain why you felt the ALHS students did well.
Here are the results:
2006-2007 ACT Composite results and comparisons
ALHS....................................21.8
STATE...................................22.5
U.S.......................................21.2
Posted by january on Oct. 25 2007,6:13 pm
TEAM wants to meet with LEARN. I agree with Bianca, it is much too late for that.
LEARN has thought their strategy through. VOTE NO now and use the year to study, investigate, compare, and come up with real, workable solutions. Revisit this next year.
That really does sound reasonable to me.
Posted by medic on Oct. 25 2007,6:18 pm
I wonder if LEARN would get to use Brookside also. I thought I read that somebody posted 241 own policy that said it is not be used for things like, well like what TEAM is using it for. 44, thanks for your post, but to split hairs a bit. Is that not why he gets paid what he does. Prescott id the head of 241. Somebody in that position gets paid to be in front of the camera, gets paid to answer the the hard questions. When it comes down to it we pay his wages and he got paid to say what he said that night. Maybe we need to pay someone else for that spot, someone who can answer these qustions when asked. Just a thought.
Posted by JeffJimenez on Oct. 25 2007,6:41 pm
Activities stipend?? Not a bad idea. Your a wise man JimHanson.
Posted by JeffJimenez on Oct. 25 2007,6:44 pm
Activities stipend?? Not a bad idea. Your a wise man JimHanson.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 25 2007,6:49 pm
Medic. When did you ask him a question that he would not answer? Several pages back I suggested that ms Lynch should call and ask to use Brookside for a meeting. I would think they would let her use it. The post about the use policy seems to be about labor negociations
Posted by Botto 82 on Oct. 25 2007,7:08 pm
Jim, the stipend idea is nothing short of brilliant.Good thinking!
Posted by medic on Oct. 25 2007,8:59 pm
wildjim I do not belive I said I asked him "the" question. He was asked by KAAL out side of the goverment center on what is the next step for 241. That is where he said "we'll ask again next year", now here we are. I have to say one thing. He did keep his word! About TEAM and Brookside. TEAM relates the are not working for 241 but are not a number of them getting checks from 241. I do belive that the tribune said it is made up of employees, among others. So I wonder if I wanted a free place to hold a meeting on lets say the pros and cons of lets say Alden over Albert Lea school stats. Would I have the same chance to have a building, lights, heating and cleaning all for free??
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 25 2007,10:37 pm
(jimhanson @ Oct. 25 2007,2:07 pm)
QUOTE
Who, outside some small towns in southern Minnesota, even KNOWS what the "Big Nine" IS?
I take issue with your "grasping at straws" characterization.
My wish--that we could actually MAKE those comparisons--would you rather have "Big Nine" sports, for example, or make kids walk two miles to school. The District has made its choice--it elected to keep the sports program intact and to make kids walk to school--inflicting maximum pain on the kids and parents to pressure for a new referendum. Now it wants MORE money to restore the bussing.
I take issue with your "grasping at straws" characterization.
My wish--that we could actually MAKE those comparisons--would you rather have "Big Nine" sports, for example, or make kids walk two miles to school. The District has made its choice--it elected to keep the sports program intact and to make kids walk to school--inflicting maximum pain on the kids and parents to pressure for a new referendum. Now it wants MORE money to restore the bussing.
I wish I knew how to separate your statements like you do mine so that I could address them more effectively.
I do know some students who transfered in to AL that cited the opportunity to play in the Big Nine as one of the deciding factors (maybe not THE factor, but one of many factors the families considered. We also have coaches that have come here from smaller schools and smaller conferences because of the opportunity to compete in the Big 9. In a sport like boys basketball, Albert Lea has 6 players go on to play in college in just the past four years. And we don't fair well in the competition in the Big Nine. However, college coaches appreciate the experience these kids get playing in the Big Nine. I have to admit that when I first came to AL, I didn't realize how important and how well respected the Big Nine is.
I apologize for the "Grasping at straws" comment. You're right. It was a shot. I am sorry.
You and I are simply going to have to agree to disagree on the importance of competitive athletics. I absolutely believe that if we cut our sports you will see a mass exodus of students from AL to other schools. And once again, school funding drops at a much faster rate than staffing needs when students leave our district. Losing these kids would only hurt the district.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 25 2007,10:44 pm
(jimhanson @ Oct. 25 2007,2:47 pm)
QUOTE
Stand 44--Your comments set me to thinking of alternatives.
My objection to non-intramural sports is that they compete with academics for school district dollars. They are a big part of our budget, and favor a relatively few people. They are not preparing students for a career--the chances of a student making it in the pro leagues is minimal.
That said, I do agree that alternate activities do have value. I also agree that some kids can't afford to play sports.
As far as extra-curricular activities, there are a NUMBER of other, lesser-known activities that may or may not get funded by the school district. Someone mentioned Danceline and Yearbook. There might be value in a photography club, computer club, chess club, debate, etc. Personally, I'd like to see an aviation activity--Des Moines has an Aviation High School (kind of like FAME for the performing arts). It's a red-hot job market right now.
How to fund all of these activities? I could go along with a $100 per year stipend per pupil--for every year they are in the school district--and it could be accrued. Example: A student that has been in the district since Kindergarten gets to 10th grade. They would have $1100 to spend towards their extracurriculars--pretty good support.
The advantages:
1. Kids have the money to spend on extracurriculars on the things THEY want.
2. The money is distributed evenly to ALL kids with ALL interests--not just to "jocks".
3. It enables MORE activity choices.
4. Unpopular program? The kids don't "buy" it.
5. An incentive for kids to stay in the District--instead of open enrolling elsewhere.
6. An incentive for families to STAY here.
7. Well defined costs for the school district--they KNOW what is going to be spent--3589 kids=$358,900.
8. No more arguing about what is/is not important.
9. We don't have this argument every time a referendum comes up.
10. An incentive for families to LOCATE here.
11. It's a good teaching tool--having kids make CHOICES in life, instead of "I WANT". Want more than your budget allows? You have a choice--either cut back, or pay more.
You can adjust the numbers up or down--but it seems to make more sense than the "pick a number out of mid-air" or "but that's the way we've ALWAYS done it" that we are doing now.
Wouldn't that be more fair?
My objection to non-intramural sports is that they compete with academics for school district dollars. They are a big part of our budget, and favor a relatively few people. They are not preparing students for a career--the chances of a student making it in the pro leagues is minimal.
That said, I do agree that alternate activities do have value. I also agree that some kids can't afford to play sports.
As far as extra-curricular activities, there are a NUMBER of other, lesser-known activities that may or may not get funded by the school district. Someone mentioned Danceline and Yearbook. There might be value in a photography club, computer club, chess club, debate, etc. Personally, I'd like to see an aviation activity--Des Moines has an Aviation High School (kind of like FAME for the performing arts). It's a red-hot job market right now.
How to fund all of these activities? I could go along with a $100 per year stipend per pupil--for every year they are in the school district--and it could be accrued. Example: A student that has been in the district since Kindergarten gets to 10th grade. They would have $1100 to spend towards their extracurriculars--pretty good support.
The advantages:
1. Kids have the money to spend on extracurriculars on the things THEY want.
2. The money is distributed evenly to ALL kids with ALL interests--not just to "jocks".
3. It enables MORE activity choices.
4. Unpopular program? The kids don't "buy" it.
5. An incentive for kids to stay in the District--instead of open enrolling elsewhere.
6. An incentive for families to STAY here.
7. Well defined costs for the school district--they KNOW what is going to be spent--3589 kids=$358,900.
8. No more arguing about what is/is not important.
9. We don't have this argument every time a referendum comes up.
10. An incentive for families to LOCATE here.
11. It's a good teaching tool--having kids make CHOICES in life, instead of "I WANT". Want more than your budget allows? You have a choice--either cut back, or pay more.
You can adjust the numbers up or down--but it seems to make more sense than the "pick a number out of mid-air" or "but that's the way we've ALWAYS done it" that we are doing now.
Wouldn't that be more fair?
I have to say that this is an incredibly creative idea. It made me smile.
The first question of course is where do we get an extra $25,00.00 for the 250 1st graders or $250,000.00 over 10 years.
Also, at what point do we raise to adjust for inflation.
Otherwise, I kind of like the solution you have suggested. It may however be like changing the electoral college. We don't know what the problems of something like this would be.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 25 2007,10:48 pm
(january @ Oct. 25 2007,6:13 pm)
QUOTE
TEAM wants to meet with LEARN.
I agree with Bianca, it is much too late for that.
LEARN has thought their strategy through. VOTE NO now and use the year to study, investigate, compare, and come up with real, workable solutions. Revisit this next year.
That really does sound reasonable to me.
I agree with Bianca, it is much too late for that.
LEARN has thought their strategy through. VOTE NO now and use the year to study, investigate, compare, and come up with real, workable solutions. Revisit this next year.
That really does sound reasonable to me.
Only one question looking back. The referendum was voted down last year. How much studying did learn do in the past year in the form of going to board meetings, budget presentations, or simply looking at the actually budget?
Posted by bianca on Oct. 25 2007,10:48 pm
Do you mean more than the 22% that already transfer out of our district vs the 6% that transfers in? There's already a big percentage leaving, shouldn't we be asking why?The thing about the athletics is that no one knows what will be cut, if they will be cut or if the fees will go up because District 241 hasn't said. Also what hasn't been said is that if this referendum passes every sport will stay and none wil have increased fees. Everything is "could"
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 25 2007,10:55 pm
(Botto 82 @ Oct. 25 2007,7:08 pm)
QUOTE
Jim, the stipend idea is nothing short of brilliant.
Good thinking!
Good thinking!
I found a flaw in Jim's stipend suggestion. Please remember That my original response was quite positive, and I still find it interesting.
What happens if a student doesn't use it. Is it a use it or lose it so as to encourage participation or could they take the money and run?
Second, what about the kid that transfers in in 9th grade or the kid that transfers out?
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 25 2007,11:04 pm
(medic @ Oct. 25 2007,8:59 pm)
QUOTE
I have to say one thing. He did keep his word! About TEAM and Brookside. TEAM relates the are not working for 241 but are not a number of them getting checks from 241. I do belive that the tribune said it is made up of employees, among others. So I wonder if I wanted a free place to hold a meeting on lets say the pros and cons of lets say Alden over Albert Lea school stats. Would I have the same chance to have a building, lights, heating and cleaning all for free?????
First off, teachers and other school employees should be aloud to fight on behalf of a cause that they have dedicated their life to, namely education. So when TEAM states that they are not working for 241, I believe that what they are saying is that the district isn't paying them to go to TEAM meetings and work for the referendum. These staff members are there of their own accord.
Second, I think it is going a bit too far to assume that TEAM has not filed a Facilities Request Form and that they have not paid fee to reserve the rooms they have used. TEAM has received donations from community members and local business's. I am certain they can afford what the cost is to reserve a room every monday night. If you think I am wrong on this, you can check it out. They meet at 6:30 on Monday's at Brookside.
Finally, if you wanted to hold a meeting comparing the schools you mentioned, I would find it hard to believe that 241 would decline an invitation to discuss those stats.
Sorry if I seem a little punchy. I am in kind of a mood tonight.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 25 2007,11:12 pm
(bianca @ Oct. 25 2007,10:48 pm)
QUOTE
Do you mean more than the 22% that already transfer out of our district vs the 6% that transfers in? There's already a big percentage leaving, shouldn't we be asking why?
The thing about the athletics is that no one knows what will be cut, if they will be cut or if the fees will go up because District 241 hasn't said. Also what hasn't been said is that if this referendum passes every sport will stay and none wil have increased fees. Everything is "could"
The thing about the athletics is that no one knows what will be cut, if they will be cut or if the fees will go up because District 241 hasn't said. Also what hasn't been said is that if this referendum passes every sport will stay and none wil have increased fees. Everything is "could"
Does anyone here know why these students are leaving.
I started to brainstorm and here are a few thoughts.
I have had the opportunity to stand in front of a few classes over the years and I have noticed that kids do seem to come and go. Some move in and just a quickly as they came, they are gone again. Citing moving near family or getting a new job.
Some parents, me included believe that the class size in AL has gotten too big their comfort level. Will my kids attend AL? Yes, but the class size is a concern of mine. This could explain why kids switch to places such as Alden and Glenville.
I even knew a kid who played football here in AL through 9th grade. He then transfered to Alden to play as he thought he would get more opportunity to play. After one year in Alden he transfered back realizing he wasn't getting more opportunities and that he liked the classes better in AL. He did eventually graduate from AL.
I was in the school one day when a girl and her mom walked passed me in the entrance. The girl was crying. I asked the teacher standing there why she was crying. She had come to school that day not knowing that mom was pulling her out and that they were moving back to Texas. I find it hard to believe that mom got up that morning and just decided that AL education was unsatisfactory and that they needed to move to Texas.
My point is that the reason kids transfer out may not simply be the quality of education they receive.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 26 2007,12:44 am
I wish prescott would talk about who leaves and who open enrolls in. Many of those who leave need to make a fresh start
Posted by busybee on Oct. 26 2007,2:56 am
QUOTE
How to fund all of these activities? I could go along with a $100 per year stipend per pupil--for every year they are in the school district--and it could be accrued. Example: A student that has been in the district since Kindergarten gets to 10th grade. They would have $1100 to spend towards their extracurriculars--pretty good support.
The advantages:
1. Kids have the money to spend on extracurriculars on the things THEY want.
2. The money is distributed evenly to ALL kids with ALL interests--not just to "jocks".
3. It enables MORE activity choices.
4. Unpopular program? The kids don't "buy" it.
5. An incentive for kids to stay in the District--instead of open enrolling elsewhere.
6. An incentive for families to STAY here.
7. Well defined costs for the school district--they KNOW what is going to be spent--3589 kids=$358,900.
8. No more arguing about what is/is not important.
9. We don't have this argument every time a referendum comes up.
10. An incentive for families to LOCATE here.
11. It's a good teaching tool--having kids make CHOICES in life, instead of "I WANT". Want more than your budget allows? You have a choice--either cut back, or pay more.
The advantages:
1. Kids have the money to spend on extracurriculars on the things THEY want.
2. The money is distributed evenly to ALL kids with ALL interests--not just to "jocks".
3. It enables MORE activity choices.
4. Unpopular program? The kids don't "buy" it.
5. An incentive for kids to stay in the District--instead of open enrolling elsewhere.
6. An incentive for families to STAY here.
7. Well defined costs for the school district--they KNOW what is going to be spent--3589 kids=$358,900.
8. No more arguing about what is/is not important.
9. We don't have this argument every time a referendum comes up.
10. An incentive for families to LOCATE here.
11. It's a good teaching tool--having kids make CHOICES in life, instead of "I WANT". Want more than your budget allows? You have a choice--either cut back, or pay more.
Jim...I guess this is a good time to tell you that great minds think alike!
From my posting (#440) on this thread...
QUOTE
If people were really to face the facts on the school sports issue, they would realize that passing a referendum in order to keep costs down or prevent cuts is ONLY supporting a specific percentage of students. If the "system" was fair and balanced, we would all throw money into a pot and each student would get to choose a sport of choice and use their portion of the money towards participation. This would mean each student would be allocated the same amount of money and instead of having the district choose what sports are valuable in developing "well rounded students" for them, all students would be allowed an opportunity to pick a sport that is valuable to them.
I sure am grateful for people like you, let's "speakers from the heart" know that not everyone understands ideas presented in that way. Dang...I'm not sure I can get used to YOU having something like this over on me!
Great post on this issue Jim!
Posted by busybee on Oct. 26 2007,3:21 am
QUOTE
My point is that the reason kids transfer out may not simply be the quality of education they receive.
My high schooler transfered out for two reason's, academics and desire to participate in an alternate to a "school" sport.
Always been a top notch student, A's & B's, never a behavior problem either. My child just wanted the same opportunity as other kids who participate in a school supported sport and not suffer academically for it.
Unless you have a "non-conforming to high school sports motivated child" you could not possibly understand how difficult it is to be in high school and not be punished for it. The way the system is set up, even an above average academic achiever, with focus and an awesome attitude, will be forced out because the "breaks" and "extra priviledges" are only allowed to the "conforming to high school sports motivated child." There are no exceptions, there are no options to work it out, if it's not their sport, it doesn't matter...
Posted by busybee on Oct. 26 2007,3:36 am
QUOTE
Finally, if you wanted to hold a meeting comparing the schools you mentioned, I would find it hard to believe that 241 would decline an invitation to discuss those stats.
I have an idea...if you're so sure the response will be accomodating...how about you go to the district and tell them you're against the referendum, have become a voice of LEARN and reserve a room at Brookside for anti-referendumists.
Seriously, no set ups...no telling...I have to prove to a couple of people that they're wrong about this. Role play the situation in "real form." That's about the only way I think you could validate your claim that there would be no problems.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 26 2007,9:37 am
If anyone would like a LEARN sign put in their yard please pm your address to me, we don't have a lot but I would like to get some out on Bridge street Frank Avenue, Clark st, Fountain st., Main st. some busier roadways along with anyone who feels their neighborhood would be a good place to get noticed. Thanks for your support.Also watch for our pamphlet this weekend and next weekend, very good information in a small package.
More to come as the time grows near
If you live on the outskirts, please find out where you need to go to vote as this is a special election and your voting places may have changed.
Also remember that those who are writing letters to the editor I believe the last day to submit before the election is November 1.
Please remember to vote November 6, don't count on someone else to do it for you.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 26 2007,11:29 am
Stand 44 QUOTE
I have to say that this is an incredibly creative idea. It made me smile.
The first question of course is where do we get an extra $25,00.00 for the 250 1st graders or $250,000.00 over 10 years.
Also, at what point do we raise to adjust for inflation.
We use the PRESENT level of funding for athletics. No more, no less. Nobody can claim that their favorite program is "underfunded"--it is revenue neutral. Kids can "spend" it any way they want.The first question of course is where do we get an extra $25,00.00 for the 250 1st graders or $250,000.00 over 10 years.
Also, at what point do we raise to adjust for inflation.
Inflation adjustment--yes, that should be taken into account. The $100 per student per year was just an illustration.
QUOTE
What happens if a student doesn't use it. Is it a use it or lose it so as to encourage participation or could they take the money and run?
Second, what about the kid that transfers in in 9th grade or the kid that transfers out?
Yes, it is "use it or lose it". I don't think ANYONE would FORCE kids to take an activity they weren't interested in. One of the enumerated POSITIVES was that it is an incentive for kids NOT to "open enroll" OUT of the District, that it is an INCENTIVE for parents not to relocate as they would lose it, and that is an incentive for parents to LOCATE here--far more than a new school. If athletics is the thing you claim it to be, then this program should be bringing people in DROVES!Second, what about the kid that transfers in in 9th grade or the kid that transfers out?
What about the kid that transfers into the system in 9th grade? He/she STILL gets $400 in "activities credits" at no charge--not too bad!
QUOTE
It may however be like changing the electoral college.
Nah--it's not like it requires a Constitutional Amendment. Since it is revenue neutral, all that would be required is adoption of the policy by the School Board. Keeping track wouldn't be difficult--append it to the student records that are kept anyway. This would be incredibly EASY to implement, compared to each activity lobbying for more money every year.The possible negatives? Some activities would wither away due to lack of support by the students themselves. That isn't a BAD thing--it is the reality of the marketplace--if you don't have a marketable product that people will BUY, or don't make the case for the usefulness of your product, it's GONE. That is a good thing--and teaches a valuable lesson to students. Look at how companies advertise to get people to buy they products. Can you imagine the same thing in school? It would be much like college recruiting--"Hey, Jimmy! We really could use you in Marching Band (or wrestling, or cross country). Why not come over here, you will be a superstar on our team!"
All we need is the WILL to NOT CONTINUE DOING THINGS AS THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN DONE--the WILL to CHANGE.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 26 2007,11:50 am
QUOTE
All we need is the WILL to NOT CONTINUE DOING THINGS AS THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN DONE--the WILL to CHANGE.
Posted by Ginkgo on Oct. 26 2007,12:31 pm
If the referendum does not pass, then the school district will have to cut $2 million to live within it's budget. They have to live within their budget every year, it is required by law. The charge can not be that they need to live within their budget, but what amount that budget should be. Reasonable people can disagree. I happen to believe that we need the additional amount to have at least what we have now. None of us would agree on every program or extra activities that are offered. But we can not have exactly what we personally want because we have to compromise, or we would not have anything. In a demacracy the majority gets to have it their way, but it is still a group decision.The same will happen for this referendum. I troubles me is not the small number of people that attack each other because it is just immature behavior. What troubles me is the refusual to agree on the facts, and who has the facts. Or even worse is the selective use of facts, or misrepresenting the facts.
Budget figures from the school are auidited by the state. The school board members are all elected by the public in an open and fair election. If they are representing you, and they have studied the issues and situation far deeper and broader than almost all of us, why do you not believe them when they say the school needs this referendum? Do you really believe they are lying to us? If this is what you think, then you need to run or get someone to run that you will believe.
The other thing that bothers me is the use of the NCLB and the AYP results to misrepresent the facts. Obiviously you do not understand what the facts mean when you say that the school has failed. The facts are that the "All Students" category has always met the benchmark for AYP. People have been taking the smaller groups that have not made their AYP as an excuse to say the schools failed. If you really take the time to study the facts you would see that it is a very small amount of children that did not pass the AYP, and than only a few higher scores by 4 or 5 kids would have changed the results. Besides that the figures are only benchmarks to help the schools progress towards the long term goal for 2013-2014 school year.
Again I say, you can open the conversation with any school board member instead of here. They are the ones that can make the changes you want. It does not happen by osmosis. If you have questions, or hear rumers, ask them for the facts.
Posted by albertleamom on Oct. 26 2007,1:01 pm
just a comment.. I wonder why the dist if we have no money didn't use the old yard signs from last year instead of having new ones made up. My neighbor still has one from last year in his garage? they say the same thing...
Posted by JeffJimenez on Oct. 26 2007,1:37 pm
I saved mine. Now I have two!! Good post Ginko!!
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 26 2007,1:53 pm
Q-Look how many TEAM supporters have personally attacked LEARN supporters on this forum. Tonya response-Unfortunately this is becoming more and more true. I was told yesterday that this fellow had put his NO sign in the back of his truck and as soon as he did it a woman drove past and "flipped him off". Maybe this is why voting has to be done behind a curtain, so to speak.
Tonya gots some splaining to do!
All quotes from Tonya Lynch-leader of LEARN since the start of this string:
*Until the school can come up with teachers that actually want to teach, and the progress is seen and not just talked about I will be voting NO.
*My opinion: Behrends and Mathiason both need to go on the county board anyone would be better than those two.
*The same with the city council, get rid of Simonson's "yes" men. IMO, Rasmussen, Olson and Marin aren't doing anybody any favors. Brooks goes back and forth but he listens to his constituents. The problem he has is that he wants everyone to get their way and not everyone can.
* And the Mayor......I still have yet to figure THAT one out. He stunk as a city council member so how did he get to be Mayor?
*Whoopy ding-dong TEAM golf clapped, now they can start writing their tax write-offs with all that money wasted on trying to manipulate people and students to vote a certain way.
*With YOUR support, we hope to continue to bleed you for every last dollar you have,With YOUR money to help brainwash the public
*I'm so tired of hearing about how overburdened these teachers are with more students. They CHOSE this occupation, nobody says it is going to be easy, but it was/is a choice that they made and if they don't love to teach and feel rewarded to see the success in their students that they were part of then those are the ones that should not be teaching our students. It shouldn't just be about the students report card it should also be about the teachers report card, if they can't teach or do the job up to state standards then move on.
*People such as yourself with your stone-age thinking is what reflects poorly on this community and definitely one more reason I will continue to vote NO.
*Simple Math people. Oh, that's right we're not "proficient in Math"
--------------
* I wonder if the school would let us meet at the Brookside Education Center in say.... room 132?
*I can't imagine that TEAM will miss that opportunity to prey on the vulnerable adults there with their "let's do it for the kids and the community" mantra.
*Ken Peterson aka peter, had the guts to come on here and post but when called out on the NCLB testing we haven't heard anything back from him. That in itself, speaks volumes to me.
*(TEAM= Teachers and Employees who Abhor money Management.)
*The fact of the matter is TEAM is like a group of highschool groupies getting together for their little "let's get together, k?" meetings to sell a very big bag of M&M's just to see if they can top last years sales.
*This isn't about finding solutions it's about a bunch of people thinking they are the "popular pack" and because of who they are or what they do they're going to try to get a yes vote whether the educational institute is held responsible or not. It's all about "saving face" after not being able to get any return for all of THEIR sacrifice for 5 years now.
*Oh Good Grief....yet more puppets on a string. Come on Dan, we know you read the forum and all you can chirp is the same old song and dance. IT HAS NOT BROUGHT JOBS YET....hello?
TEAM has always answered my questions civil.
It is for this reason that I will trust TEAM with my vote of YES, YES.
Posted by january on Oct. 26 2007,2:31 pm
What the:Funny thing about Tonya. She has guts. She investigates. She digs, digs, digs.
She is the one person in this whole referendum thing that has stuck her neck out farther than anyone.
You may not always agree with her. I may not always agree with her. BUT......
She has the courage of her convictions.
You obviously can't sway her, because it is the principle of the thing with her.
You take pot shots at her.
How weak and inferior those tactics are sir.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 26 2007,2:33 pm
why do you not believe them when they say the school needs this referendum? Because they're biased. They wouldn't even be on the board if they didn't think we should be spending more. You can't be serious.
Do you really believe they are lying to us? yes!
They cherry pick the data to support their biased position. Even Stevie Wonder can see it.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 26 2007,3:12 pm
(albertleamom @ Oct. 26 2007,1:01 pm)
QUOTE
just a comment.. I wonder why the dist if we have no money didn't use the old yard signs from last year instead of having new ones made up. My neighbor still has one from last year in his garage? they say the same thing...
I drove by house the other day with an old sign up. After taking a closer look somebody stuck those letters/numbers you buy at Wal-Mart to put on your mailbox etc. Right in the middle of the old referendum sign were the letters NO.
Guess someone found a good use for an old sign.
Posted by medic on Oct. 26 2007,4:04 pm
(Stand44 @ Oct. 25 2007,11:04 pm)
QUOTE
(medic @ Oct. 25 2007,8:59 pm)
QUOTE
I have to say one thing. He did keep his word! About TEAM and Brookside. TEAM relates the are not working for 241 but are not a number of them getting checks from 241. I do belive that the tribune said it is made up of employees, among others. So I wonder if I wanted a free place to hold a meeting on lets say the pros and cons of lets say Alden over Albert Lea school stats. Would I have the same chance to have a building, lights, heating and cleaning all for free??
?First off, teachers and other school employees should be aloud to fight on behalf of a cause that they have dedicated their life to, namely education. So when TEAM states that they are not working for 241, I believe that what they are saying is that the district isn't paying them to go to TEAM meetings and work for the referendum. These staff members are there of their own accord.
Second, I think it is going a bit too far to assume that TEAM has not filed a Facilities Request Form and that they have not paid fee to reserve the rooms they have used. TEAM has received donations from community members and local business's. I am certain they can afford what the cost is to reserve a room every monday night. If you think I am wrong on this, you can check it out. They meet at 6:30 on Monday's at Brookside.
Finally, if you wanted to hold a meeting comparing the schools you mentioned, I would find it hard to believe that 241 would decline an invitation to discuss those stats.
Sorry if I seem a little punchy. I am in kind of a mood tonight.
If TEAM is getting money from people, why dont they in return give it to 241 in a lump some? Is that not what TEAM/241 want is more money? Seems dum to go and get money to have a meeting. I guess I do understand that 241 gets this in the end no matter what.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 26 2007,4:25 pm
(jimhanson @ Oct. 26 2007,11:29 am)
QUOTE
The possible negatives? Some activities would wither away due to lack of support by the students themselves. That isn't a BAD thing--it is the reality of the marketplace--if you don't have a marketable product that people will BUY, or don't make the case for the usefulness of your product, it's GONE. That is a good thing--and teaches a valuable lesson to students. Look at how companies advertise to get people to buy they products. Can you imagine the same thing in school? It would be much like college recruiting--"Hey, Jimmy! We really could use you in Marching Band (or wrestling, or cross country). Why not come over here, you will be a superstar on our team!" :D
All we need is the WILL to NOT CONTINUE DOING THINGS AS THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN DONE--the WILL to CHANGE.
All we need is the WILL to NOT CONTINUE DOING THINGS AS THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN DONE--the WILL to CHANGE.
Ok Jim... YOu keep me coming back for more.
Is it your belief that athletics should be revenue neutral?
Posted by january on Oct. 26 2007,4:34 pm
Ginkgo: You are the one person I really want to talk to here.
You stated "What troubles me is the refusal to agree on the facts , who has the facts or even worse the selective use of the facts or misrepresenting the facts"
Further "The other thing that bothers me is the use of the NCLB and the AYP results to misrepresent. The facts are that the "All Students" catagory has always met the benchmark for AYP. People have been taking the smaller groups that have not made their AYP as an excuse to say the schools failed. If you really take the time to study the facts you would see that it is a very small amount of children that did not pass the AYP, and than only a few higher scores by 4 or 5 kids would have changed the outcome. Besides that the figures are only benchmarks to help the schools progress towards the long term goal for 2013-2014 school year"
THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS SIR
I , like many other posters, investigate, research and study from several different sources. I have been on the District 241 web many times but prefer the Minnesota Dept of Education web for the majority of my needs.
From reading your post you do not understand MCA II testing and NCLB mandates.
MCA II are state tests that measure students progress toward academic standards and meet the requirements of the federal NCLB mandates. These tests also are used to determine Adequate Yearly Progress.
In a nut shell.
First, the State of Minnesota has Minnesota Comprehensive Assessment II tests.
Second, the federal government says that states have to show they are complying with the FEDERAL NO Child Left Behind requirements and how do they do it? They use this same test ......Minnesota Comprehensive Assessment II test. The results are used to determine Adequate Yearly Progress.
Thirdly, the "benchmarks" you are talking about are indeed a path towards the long term goal instituted by Governor Pawlenty to make sure that all students can pass the basics and be prepared for the very competitive future by 2014.
Now let us look at No Child Left Behind, the FEDERAL LEGISLATION.
The goal of NCLB is exactly what it states.
No child will be left behind.
The Federal Government determined that certain groups of students were consistently being "left behind", specifically, English as a second language, special education and poor students.
NCLB goal is to close the achievement gap. So that poor people, disadvantaged people, non-english speaking people and special needs people would all have the same goals and outcomes as anyone else.
An old way of thinking was that these above groups could not meet the same goals as everyone else.
The new way of thinking is that every child is reachable, teachable and will meet your expectations.
You said, "people are taking the smaller groups that have not made AYP as an EXCUSE to say the schools failed.
You need to know that the NCLB federal mandates state, that taking the smaller groups that have not made AYP is not an excuse, it is the law.
This legislation is looking very specifically at those groups.
For you to flippantly remark that it is just a few kids that screwed it up, but the majority did pass is likened to not understanding the philosophy of the legislation
It sir, is not just a benchmark. It is a strict federal requirement and ask the Superintendent, School Board Members, Administration, if you do not believe me.
Go to the Minnesota Dept of Education website if you don't believe me.
Because Halvorson is a Title I school, and because Halvorson failed to meet NCLB mandates it is now listed as AYP : NO- NEEDS IMPROVEMENT.
They have been identified as a school that needs improvement and they must now develop a 2 year school improvement plan. If after the 2 years they still have not passed AYP, progressive steps occur in a 4 step process. The steps are progressive and they go from making an improvement plan to getting rid of all Administration and having a management company come and run the school or even having the State Of Minnesota take over the running of the school.
I did not decide this, the Federal Government did.
Sir, the people that are either glossing over the facts or trying to use the sub-groups such as special ed, english as a second language and poor students to frivilously say "well everyone else passed only just a few of a little tiny sub-group didn't" is either ignorant or really manipulative.
You state in your posting to ask a school board member for information.
Unfortunately, Sally Ehrhardt did write a piece in the newspaper where she too seemed to blame these subgroups for not making adequate yearly progress. She did not appear to have a grasp on the NCLB mandates and echoed a popular sentiment that the NCLB was the problem itself. It sounded so much like a child "Look at all the other people that didn't pass, it's not just me"
And to answer an above question concerning if I believe the school board members.
Yes I do. I think they are good people.
I do think that perhaps one or two have misinterpreted or misunderstood the NCLB legislation.
So I decided to investigate further and study up on it myself.
Posted by medic on Oct. 26 2007,4:35 pm
(Ginkgo @ Oct. 26 2007,12:31 pm)
QUOTE
If the referendum does not pass, then the school district will have to cut $2 million to live within it's budget. They have to live within their budget every year, it is required by law. The charge can not be that they need to live within their budget, but what amount that budget should be. Reasonable people can disagree. I happen to believe that we need the additional amount to have at least what we have now. None of us would agree on every program or extra activities that are offered. But we can not have exactly what we personally want because we have to compromise, or we would not have anything. In a demacracy the majority gets to have it their way, but it is still a group decision.
The same will happen for this referendum. I troubles me is not the small number of people that attack each other because it is just immature behavior. What troubles me is the refusual to agree on the facts, and who has the facts. Or even worse is the selective use of facts, or misrepresenting the facts.
Budget figures from the school are auidited by the state. The school board members are all elected by the public in an open and fair election. If they are representing you, and they have studied the issues and situation far deeper and broader than almost all of us, why do you not believe them when they say the school needs this referendum? Do you really believe they are lying to us? If this is what you think, then you need to run or get someone to run that you will believe.
The other thing that bothers me is the use of the NCLB and the AYP results to misrepresent the facts. Obiviously you do not understand what the facts mean when you say that the school has failed. The facts are that the "All Students" category has always met the benchmark for AYP. People have been taking the smaller groups that have not made their AYP as an excuse to say the schools failed. If you really take the time to study the facts you would see that it is a very small amount of children that did not pass the AYP, and than only a few higher scores by 4 or 5 kids would have changed the results. Besides that the figures are only benchmarks to help the schools progress towards the long term goal for 2013-2014 school year.
Again I say, you can open the conversation with any school board member instead of here. They are the ones that can make the changes you want. It does not happen by osmosis. If you have questions, or hear rumers, ask them for the facts.
The same will happen for this referendum. I troubles me is not the small number of people that attack each other because it is just immature behavior. What troubles me is the refusual to agree on the facts, and who has the facts. Or even worse is the selective use of facts, or misrepresenting the facts.
Budget figures from the school are auidited by the state. The school board members are all elected by the public in an open and fair election. If they are representing you, and they have studied the issues and situation far deeper and broader than almost all of us, why do you not believe them when they say the school needs this referendum? Do you really believe they are lying to us? If this is what you think, then you need to run or get someone to run that you will believe.
The other thing that bothers me is the use of the NCLB and the AYP results to misrepresent the facts. Obiviously you do not understand what the facts mean when you say that the school has failed. The facts are that the "All Students" category has always met the benchmark for AYP. People have been taking the smaller groups that have not made their AYP as an excuse to say the schools failed. If you really take the time to study the facts you would see that it is a very small amount of children that did not pass the AYP, and than only a few higher scores by 4 or 5 kids would have changed the results. Besides that the figures are only benchmarks to help the schools progress towards the long term goal for 2013-2014 school year.
Again I say, you can open the conversation with any school board member instead of here. They are the ones that can make the changes you want. It does not happen by osmosis. If you have questions, or hear rumers, ask them for the facts.
Fact: Prescott is on record saying our plan is to ask again next year. That is a fact. Look it up. He is on record telling the public what the next step is. Please tell where this is not a statement of fact, and please dont tell me he was caught off guard and did not know what to say. He is the guy in charge of 241 and gets a dollar or two to do what he does.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 26 2007,4:54 pm
Ginko--thank you for your thoughful post(s). You have elevated the level of discussion. QUOTE
They have to live within their budget every year, it is required by law.
If they have to live within their budget every year, are they not INTO the budget for THIS year already--and if the referendum is NOT approved, will be out of their budget?QUOTE
The charge can not be that they need to live within their budget, but what amount that budget should be.
We are in agreement--THIS is what the allowable expenses for the budget is--make your programs fit. That means setting priorities. The school board, on their own site, lists where cuts can be made--and $2 million dollars out of $31 million is hardly "draconian"--businesses do it every day. The Administration has also made CHOICES in what is cut--for example, they mention cutting school transportation for students UNDER 2 miles, yet they have elected to keep contract janitors and secretarial staff, rather than use contract people. EITHER one would restore the bus service, but they obviously believe that having janitors OR secretaries as District employees is more important than making kids walk to school. This is just WRONG--and I feel it is intended to inflict maximum pain on students and parents.There has been no dialogue about cutting one of the elementary schools--some say that we have one school too many, and that the luxury of having the extra school is costing us about $1 million dollars a year. We SHOULD have an open discussion on that issue--the community may very well decide that the extra school is a luxury they would not mind paying for, but at least it would have been CONSIDERED. As it is, a few people decide WHAT we "should" have, and our only option is to vote Yes or NO. That isn't much of a choice. Tell the Administration to come back with something better.
I've laid out the "Cut one million, we'll give you a million" idea--cutting 3% is even easier. I've laid out where I would make the cuts--others may have other priorities--but 3% is easy. As one educator put it--"No, the EASIEST way to cut a million dollars is the extra school--ONE SHOT."
Another former teacher (who for obvious reasons must remain anonymous) says "Make them TELL you what they are going to do with the money. Don't accept vague promises that this money will make everything better, make them TELL you which programs will be enabled and which will be cut." This fits with the premise you and I have both expressed of "this is the budget, make it fit."
There IS an alternative to just throwing money at the problem. I'll admit that throwing money at the problem is easier than actually WORKING at solving the problem, but if past voting records are considered, most people don't believe that the Administration has done all it can to spend taxpayer money wisely.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 26 2007,5:14 pm
(jimhanson @ Oct. 26 2007,11:29 am)
QUOTE
The possible negatives? Some activities would wither away due to lack of support by the students themselves. That isn't a BAD thing--it is the reality of the marketplace--if you don't have a marketable product that people will BUY, or don't make the case for the usefulness of your product, it's GONE. That is a good thing--and teaches a valuable lesson to students. Look at how companies advertise to get people to buy they products. Can you imagine the same thing in school? It would be much like college recruiting--"Hey, Jimmy! We really could use you in Marching Band (or wrestling, or cross country). Why not come over here, you will be a superstar on our team!" :D
All we need is the WILL to NOT CONTINUE DOING THINGS AS THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN DONE--the WILL to CHANGE.
All we need is the WILL to NOT CONTINUE DOING THINGS AS THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN DONE--the WILL to CHANGE.
Ok Jim... YOu keep me coming back for more.
Is it your belief that athletics should be revenue neutral?
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 26 2007,5:22 pm
(albertleamom @ Oct. 26 2007,1:01 pm)
QUOTE
just a comment.. I wonder why the dist if we have no money didn't use the old yard signs from last year instead of having new ones made up. My neighbor still has one from last year in his garage? they say the same thing...
The school board does not pay for any yard signs. This is a TEAM expense. Their money comes from donations from the community. The school district cannot tell you which way to vote. They can only tell you why they think they need the money
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 26 2007,5:40 pm
QUOTE
Is it your belief that athletics should be revenue neutral?
Look at the post. It is my belief that we should spend the SAME on athletics as we do now--no more, no less. We just need a more equitable way to distribute it. Here is my original post QUOTE
We use the PRESENT level of funding for athletics. No more, no less. Nobody can claim that their favorite program is "underfunded"--it is revenue neutral. Kids can "spend" it any way they want.
If you would rather use the term "budget neutral", go ahead. Either way, nobody is being "penalized."
Posted by busybee on Oct. 26 2007,6:02 pm
QUOTE
The other thing that bothers me is the use of the NCLB and the AYP results to misrepresent the facts. Obiviously you do not understand what the facts mean when you say that the school has failed. The facts are that the "All Students" category has always met the benchmark for AYP. People have been taking the smaller groups that have not made their AYP as an excuse to say the schools failed. If you really take the time to study the facts you would see that it is a very small amount of children that did not pass the AYP, and than only a few higher scores by 4 or 5 kids would have changed the results. Besides that the figures are only benchmarks to help the schools progress towards the long term goal for 2013-2014 school year.
Personally, I think what you write is a minimizing of NCLB and AYP.
It is important that our district does the most and offers the best opportunities for ALL students in ALL sub-groups to be at the highest level of academic achievement possible. We don't even need NCLB to choose that path...we could always choose improvement goals over keeping things as they are.
The fact is, our district is in needs improvement status sanctions. (a Level 3) You can find that if you research on the MN Dept of Ed for a download called "Schools Not Making AYP2007." In that download is a tab for looking up districts not making AYP.
This is where our district is. Blaming certain sub-groups by pushing that on the community instead of seeking community support for district wide improvement in academic achievement for ALL students, is not what I would consider a wise decision of our district. Nothing changes for the better if all we do is blame others.
I'm not ignorant to the flaws of NCLB. I see them, I dispute them, but I do not dispute the message that NCLB sends in accountability of public schools to push forward towards higher academic achievement of all students.
I find it difficult to blame certain sub-groups for 77% of students at ALHS in 11th grade not performing at a proficient math level...grade level.
I want to address this specific statement of your post, ".....If you really take the time to study the facts you would see that it is a very small amount of children that did not pass the AYP, and than only a few higher scores by 4 or 5 kids would have changed the results...."
I would suspect that every student in the largest sub-group was able to give scores with points values.
It is important to recognize that as students progress from elementary to middle school to high school the achievement gap increasingly becomes larger. With that comes lower achievement expectations and less opportunity for supportive measures in academics. Research math and reading scores between our schools and you will see what I'm referring to.
For example, a student who recieves special ed instruction/title I in elementary may not qualify in middle school. If they're on the line in middle school, they will for sure not qualify in high school. In looking at the percentages for math that I posted above I think that proves the reality of how this works.
As the testing becomes more difficult, I question if the higher achievers will be able to continue carrying the whole group. Will we make it through to 2014 for the federal government goals & 2016 for state goals?
It's downright scary to think that 23% of students at ALHS being at grade level in math is sufficient, let alone acceptable.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 26 2007,6:11 pm
(TameThaTane @ Oct. 26 2007,2:33 pm)
QUOTE
why do you not believe them when they say the school needs this referendum?
Because they're biased. They wouldn't even be on the board if they didn't think we should be spending more. You can't be serious.
Do you really believe they are lying to us? yes!
They cherry pick the data to support their biased position. Even Stevie Wonder can see it.
Because they're biased. They wouldn't even be on the board if they didn't think we should be spending more. You can't be serious.
Do you really believe they are lying to us? yes!
They cherry pick the data to support their biased position. Even Stevie Wonder can see it.
I agree that school board members are biased in favor of education. However, school board members can also be biased towards education in ways other than "give us more money". These are the people that were elected. They are in the room and have to make the decisions.
Someone voted for these people. Others ran against them and lost. It would seem that they have, at one time or another received the school district's voters blessings to make these decisions.
Besides, no one blasted them as bias when they cut the Liberians to half time in all elementary schools and to less than half time at the middle school or when they cut library support staff that left school libraries closed for a period of time at the start of the school year as the support staff needed time to get caught up with their duties. No one blasted the board as bias when they raised activity fees, and then raised them again the next year. No one blasted them as biased when they went from two assistant principals and three counselors at the high school to no assistant principals, three deans and one counselor. No one called them bias when they cut the assistant coaches for all sports causing the boosters to pay for the coaches they needed. No one called them bias when they cut a phy ed teacher this year or decreased the amount of music teachers at the secondary level asking one person to teach orchestra to all secondary students and yet get paid at less than full-time. And finally, no one called them biased when they cut custodial staff that now leaves classrooms with garbage cans unemptied for an extra day and floors unswept.
The cuts have been made. You may believe that there are more to be made or that emplyees need to work harder for less pay. I simply disagree with that.
You can check all this. I stand behind the data I am picking.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 26 2007,6:16 pm
(medic @ Oct. 26 2007,4:04 pm)
QUOTE
If TEAM is getting money from people, why dont they in return give it to 241 in a lump some? Is that not what TEAM/241 want is more money? Seems dum to go and get money to have a meeting. I guess I do understand that 241 gets this in the end no matter what.
Because the $10-$20 Thousand dollars to run a successful referendum campaign wouldn't fill a $2 million dollar hole very well.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 26 2007,6:21 pm
(jimhanson @ Oct. 26 2007,5:40 pm)
QUOTE
&sp
QUOTE
Is it your belief that athletics should be revenue neutral?
Look at the post. It is my belief that we should spend the SAME on athletics as we do now--no more, no less. We just need a more equitable way to distribute it. ;Here is my original post QUOTE
We use the PRESENT level of funding for athletics. No more, no less. Nobody can claim that their favorite program is "underfunded"--it is revenue neutral. Kids can "spend" it any way they want.
If you would rather use the term "budget neutral", go ahead. Either way, nobody is being "penalized."OK
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 26 2007,6:48 pm
BusyBee,You seem to know a bit about NCLB. Therefore, you might want to speak to the local expert on NCLB. This person is paid a handsome amount of money to know all the ins and outs of NCLB and all the requirements and such. Her name is Judy Knudtson. I offer these warnings if you choose to speak with her. 1) make sure you have plenty of time. She loves data and loves to talk about it. 2) Be ready for the "there is no easy way to explain NCLB comment".
Now for some thoughts. I like to use sports analogies. In the late 80's my basketball team made the state tournament. In our first game we were beaten in overtime. Every position on that team (the guards, forwards, and centers) all tried their absolute best. The centers however were the only players not to shoot 60% or better from the Free-throw line (I was the starting center). Now one group of players didn't reach the goal for the team to be successful... in a sense we had failed as we had certainly failed to win. Despite all this, no one ever called us as a team, school or community failures.
Yes, the district is listed as a failing school. Yes it is because one subgroup didn't meet AYP. I disagree however with the label of a "Failing District" when there is so much that is positive. In addition, all schools except Lakeview are addressing the area where the district failed (one subgroup in math only) by mandating that all teachers strive to improve math scores in some manner in their classroom. Lakeview chose a reading goal as that is the only area where their school didn't make AYP.
Bottom line the lable of "Failing school district may be accurate according to NCLB, but I hope you agree that one position on the team doesn't reflect the greatness of the other players.
As for the 11th graders passing at 22%. Please! Please! Please! remember that these kids have been tested from here until Christmas and the MCA-II's that you refer to DO NOT COUNT FOR THE STUDENTS THAT TOOK THEM! What motivation is there for these kids? The only schools in the Big 9 that passed more than 70% of their 11th graders in math we Mayo and Century and they didn't play by the rules (an honest mistake that they will correct next year). Otherwise, Albert Lea scored better than Austin and Winona and was close to about 3 other schools in the % of students that passed.
I will gladly stand with you in your criticism of the school when the 11th graders do not pass and they needed to. Until the tests count, I really don't care about the 11th grade math test. As far as NCLB goes, the High school does not need to meet those standards as they do not recieve any title I monies.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 26 2007,7:35 pm
QUOTE
Besides, no one blasted them as bias when they cut the Liberians to half time in all elementary schools and to less than half time at the middle school or when they cut library support staff that left school libraries closed for a period of time at the start of the school year as the support staff needed time to get caught up with their duties. No one blasted the board as bias when they raised activity fees, and then raised them again the next year. No one blasted them as biased when they went from two assistant principals and three counselors at the high school to no assistant principals, three deans and one counselor. No one called them bias when they cut the assistant coaches for all sports causing the boosters to pay for the coaches they needed. No one called them bias when they cut a phy ed teacher this year or decreased the amount of music teachers at the secondary level asking one person to teach orchestra to all secondary students and yet get paid at less than full-time. And finally, no one called them biased when they cut custodial staff that now leaves classrooms with garbage cans unemptied for an extra day and floors unswept.
Why would they? Not every student utilizes all this. Other than music, I can't see anything in those cuts/reductions that directly impact student academics in a negative way. Even with that, not every student utililzes the music programs or the school library beyond elementary school.
I think those were some pretty wise choices.
I have nothing against our school board members and appreciate all of the time they put in.
The issue I have always had is the philosophy of our public education system. We have to change our philosophy in order to set better priorities in academics, especially at the high school levels. Today is what we need to be dealing with in order to plan for tomorrow with-in our high schools, not staying caught up in the past.
Actually, I have a lot of faith in what the school board will do, even if this referendum fails.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 26 2007,10:03 pm
(busybee @ Oct. 26 2007,7:35 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Besides, no one blasted them as bias when they cut the Liberians to half time in all elementary schools and to less than half time at the middle school or when they cut library support staff that left school libraries closed for a period of time at the start of the school year as the support staff needed time to get caught up with their duties. No one blasted the board as bias when they raised activity fees, and then raised them again the next year. No one blasted them as biased when they went from two assistant principals and three counselors at the high school to no assistant principals, three deans and one counselor. No one called them bias when they cut the assistant coaches for all sports causing the boosters to pay for the coaches they needed. No one called them bias when they cut a phy ed teacher this year or decreased the amount of music teachers at the secondary level asking one person to teach orchestra to all secondary students and yet get paid at less than full-time. And finally, no one called them biased when they cut custodial staff that now leaves classrooms with garbage cans unemptied for an extra day and floors unswept.
Why would they? Not every student utilizes all this. Other than music, I can't see anything in those cuts/reductions that directly impact student academics in a negative way. Even with that, not every student utililzes the music programs or the school library beyond elementary school.
I think those were some pretty wise choices.
I have nothing against our school board members and appreciate all of the time they put in.
The issue I have always had is the philosophy of our public education system. We have to change our philosophy in order to set better priorities in academics, especially at the high school levels. Today is what we need to be dealing with in order to plan for tomorrow with-in our high schools, not staying caught up in the past.
Actually, I have a lot of faith in what the school board will do, even if this referendum fails.
I appreciate your faith in our school board. I don't know all the members, but the few I know are very good and honest people.
I of course have a question for you. Do you think that school librarians have no impact on academics?
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 26 2007,10:06 pm
(busybee @ Oct. 26 2007,7:35 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Besides, no one blasted them as bias when they cut the Liberians to half time in all elementary schools and to less than half time at the middle school or when they cut library support staff that left school libraries closed for a period of time at the start of the school year as the support staff needed time to get caught up with their duties. No one blasted the board as bias when they raised activity fees, and then raised them again the next year. No one blasted them as biased when they went from two assistant principals and three counselors at the high school to no assistant principals, three deans and one counselor. No one called them bias when they cut the assistant coaches for all sports causing the boosters to pay for the coaches they needed. No one called them bias when they cut a phy ed teacher this year or decreased the amount of music teachers at the secondary level asking one person to teach orchestra to all secondary students and yet get paid at less than full-time. And finally, no one called them biased when they cut custodial staff that now leaves classrooms with garbage cans unemptied for an extra day and floors unswept.
Why would they? Not every student utilizes all this. Other than music, I can't see anything in those cuts/reductions that directly impact student academics in a negative way. Even with that, not every student utililzes the music programs or the school library beyond elementary school.
I think those were some pretty wise choices.
I have nothing against our school board members and appreciate all of the time they put in.
The issue I have always had is the philosophy of our public education system. We have to change our philosophy in order to set better priorities in academics, especially at the high school levels. Today is what we need to be dealing with in order to plan for tomorrow with-in our high schools, not staying caught up in the past.
Actually, I have a lot of faith in what the school board will do, even if this referendum fails.
I appreciate your faith in our school board. I don't know all the members, but the few I know are very good and honest people.
I of course have a question for you. Do you think that school librarians have no impact on academics?
Posted by bianca on Oct. 26 2007,10:15 pm
My question to Stand44 was it a necessary cut that had to be made or was there something else that could've been cut in it's place? That's what we are asking? What kind of cuts are going to be the less detrimental to school academics and just give us a choice on them.I know many of the school board members and they are very nice people but that doesn't mean we necessarily agree on everything. I think people have got to start researching things outside of District 241's site if they really want unbiased information on what is best for our children's education. That doesn't mean we are "traitors" of some kind by not be educated on information ourselves, hopefully it means that we all can work together to make the best out of the continuing lack of funds every year.
We need to figure out why 22% are transferring out of the school district without assuming we know why, and work on that. If we have such an outstanding educational institute, this should not be happening.
One of the excuses given for this included a crying child that got taken out of school to move back to Texas. How does anyone know that the reason wasn't that they just couldn't afford to live here anymore? I'm sorry if that "stings" a little but it is a reality, we can't just assume. We need FACTS to move ahead.
I have talked to numerous elderly people that really want to vote for this but they just can't afford the hike, even if it is $10.42 mo.
Posted by january on Oct. 27 2007,9:10 am
Stand 44:I think Busybee knows MORE than a bit about NCLB and AYP. She knows a whole lot!!!
I think TEAM underestimated people this time when they campaigned. Just because the District and the Board glossed over test scores does not mean the public did not read between the lines.
Yesterday on KATE radio the program featured Superintendent Prescott, Ken Peterson from the school board and TEAM representatives.
Many questions were about test scores. In fact I tried several times to get through and was unable due to the busy lines.
Darryl said that he was really surprised by the interest the public has shown in this referendum.
I do not know how this thing will come out and I have no gauge to determine as I am not canvassing District 241 households and quizzing folks to confirm that magic number of 5000 YES votes.
I do know that substance is relevant.
I do know that no matter how this thing unfolds none of us will ever go back to the way it once was.
And that is a good thing.
Posted by january on Oct. 27 2007,9:27 am
Stand 44:In your post of Oct 26th, 2007 @ 6:11 pm you stated and I quote "And finally no one called them biased (school board) when they cut custodial staff that now leaves classrooms with garbage cans unemptied for an extra day and floors unswept."
According to the Minnesota Dept of Education website under General Fund Expenditures per student by program this is what is quoted:
OPERATIONS MAINTENANCE AND OTHER
ALHS...................................$1245.00
District.................................$997.00
State....................................$769.00
Seems to me that we are paying for a service above and beyond what the average cost in the State is.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 27 2007,9:27 am
QUOTE
You seem to know a bit about NCLB. Therefore, you might want to speak to the local expert on NCLB. This person is paid a handsome amount of money to know all the ins and outs of NCLB and all the requirements and such. Her name is Judy Knudtson. I offer these warnings if you choose to speak with her. 1) make sure you have plenty of time. She loves data and loves to talk about it. 2) Be ready for the "there is no easy way to explain NCLB comment".
Did you automatically "assume" that I don't know Judy Knudtson so you thought throwing her name out there would surprise me or something?
I like Judy, always have. She's always been extremely motivated, caring and mindful of her role in the district. I appreciate her dedication, even her dedicated comment, "there is no easy way to explain NCLB comment," because she's right.
QUOTE
Now for some thoughts. I like to use sports analogies. In the late 80's my basketball team made the state tournament. In our first game we were beaten in overtime. Every position on that team (the guards, forwards, and centers) all tried their absolute best. The centers however were the only players not to shoot 60% or better from the Free-throw line (I was the starting center). Now one group of players didn't reach the goal for the team to be successful... in a sense we had failed as we had certainly failed to win. Despite all this, no one ever called us as a team, school or community failures.
Is that honestly the message your hearing from people who don't support the referendum as it is or from NCLB academic goals?
What I hear as the message is...
Improving academics in reading, math, science and technology WILL increase the potential for more students to be college ready and generate a greater understanding of the need as future ADULTS to be competitive in a global economy and workforce.
You and I can sit all day and dispute about the defects in the process of NCLB, AYP, the achievement gap, test scores, special ed, ell, free & reduced lunches, kids attitudes, poor parenting and on and on. That will NOT change the intended goal of the message. The message is we CAN improve, we WILL do better.
Life is full of failures and successes. We can be grateful for both...greatness is earned, not given.
QUOTE
Yes, the district is listed as a failing school. Yes it is because one subgroup didn't meet AYP. I disagree however with the label of a "Failing District" when there is so much that is positive. In addition, all schools except Lakeview are addressing the area where the district failed (one subgroup in math only) by mandating that all teachers strive to improve math scores in some manner in their classroom. Lakeview chose a reading goal as that is the only area where their school didn't make AYP.
If the presentation is "give us the money to keep things as they are or we could cut all of these things," do you think that is a positively informed message that they're actually going to plan for & impliment goals towards academic improvements in the schools?
QUOTE
As for the 11th graders passing at 22%. Please! Please! Please! remember that these kids have been tested from here until Christmas and the MCA-II's that you refer to DO NOT COUNT FOR THE STUDENTS THAT TOOK THEM! What motivation is there for these kids? The only schools in the Big 9 that passed more than 70% of their 11th graders in math we Mayo and Century and they didn't play by the rules (an honest mistake that they will correct next year). Otherwise, Albert Lea scored better than Austin and Winona and was close to about 3 other schools in the % of students that passed.
So, I guess you believe we can't build anything better in academics at ALHS? That's too bad if you do.
As far as motivations, look to the district and the community for making this about "sports, extra curriculars, clean schools," ect... We lead, they will follow by example.
QUOTE
I will gladly stand with you in your criticism of the school when the 11th graders do not pass and they needed to. Until the tests count, I really don't care about the 11th grade math test. As far as NCLB goes, the High school does not need to meet those standards as they do not recieve any title I monies.
Well, someone other than you cares. Jeesh, even the MN Dept of Ed cares!
Yes, I know ALHS is not a Title I school. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be exploring new & improved methods to increase academic achievement of ALL the students there.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 27 2007,9:34 am
I do know that no matter how this thing unfolds none of us will ever go back to the way it once was. And that is a good thing.
Agreed
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 27 2007,11:56 am
JanuaryThose numbers are interesting. Do you know if the district is high this year or have they been for a number of year? You might also want to look at the dollars spent on admin costs. Say what you want about how much Dave makes the overall admin costs are low and have been for at least the last six years.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 27 2007,1:08 pm
(bianca @ Oct. 26 2007,10:15 pm)
QUOTE
My question to Stand44 was it a necessary cut that had to be made or was there something else that could've been cut in it's place? That's what we are asking? What kind of cuts are going to be the less detrimental to school academics and just give us a choice on them.
I know many of the school board members and they are very nice people but that doesn't mean we necessarily agree on everything. I think people have got to start researching things outside of District 241's site if they really want unbiased information on what is best for our children's education. That doesn't mean we are "traitors" of some kind by not be educated on information ourselves, hopefully it means that we all can work together to make the best out of the continuing lack of funds every year.
We need to figure out why 22% are transferring out of the school district without assuming we know why, and work on that. If we have such an outstanding educational institute, this should not be happening.
One of the excuses given for this included a crying child that got taken out of school to move back to Texas. How does anyone know that the reason wasn't that they just couldn't afford to live here anymore? I'm sorry if that "stings" a little but it is a reality, we can't just assume. We need FACTS to move ahead.
I have talked to numerous elderly people that really want to vote for this but they just can't afford the hike, even if it is $10.42 mo.
I know many of the school board members and they are very nice people but that doesn't mean we necessarily agree on everything. I think people have got to start researching things outside of District 241's site if they really want unbiased information on what is best for our children's education. That doesn't mean we are "traitors" of some kind by not be educated on information ourselves, hopefully it means that we all can work together to make the best out of the continuing lack of funds every year.
We need to figure out why 22% are transferring out of the school district without assuming we know why, and work on that. If we have such an outstanding educational institute, this should not be happening.
One of the excuses given for this included a crying child that got taken out of school to move back to Texas. How does anyone know that the reason wasn't that they just couldn't afford to live here anymore? I'm sorry if that "stings" a little but it is a reality, we can't just assume. We need FACTS to move ahead.
I have talked to numerous elderly people that really want to vote for this but they just can't afford the hike, even if it is $10.42 mo.
Are we sure that 1 in 5+ kids are leaving (22%) or was it 22 kids. If the 22% is correct, what is the 22%? Is it 22% have left or is it that our class sizes is down 22%? There is a difference. 22% leaving means just that... that they left. A drop in class size of 22% means that we simply, for a number of reasons have 22% less kids (i.e. kids leaving, home schoolers, low childbirth rate, an increase in jobs in other areas such as the metro, and aging population, etc...).
And the crying child was not an excuse for anything, it was just one incident. I remember when I was in middle school, my friends Ted and Terry T (twins) were moving and they all knew it well in advance. That way they could say goodbye. That apparently didn't happen with this kid.
Now you suggest a wonderful idea. We need to figure out why this 22% is leaving (if that is in fact the case). I just have a tough time voting no when I still have more to learn. Yes I don't know everything. The people on the board know much more than me. They are asking for money. They asked last year (2006) to avoid a large cut. They didn't get it. They are asking again this year (2007). If we are going to assume that they just want more money and that there is more cuts to be made, my question is why didn't they ask for more money in 2005, or 2004, or 2003 when the state government froze school funding?
Once again, I don't know as much about it as they do. They were hired (elected ) to make these decisions. I feel comfortable trusting them. Now, had someone appeared at a forum to dispute the claims made by these elected officials, I would have heard that with an open mind as well. That didn't happen. I think having both sides in the same room would be incredibly beneficial so that everyone's questions could be answered whether we like the answers or not. And it wasn't that there wasn't an opportunity for that to happen. It just didn't happen, for whatever reasons. I would have loved to hear answers to some of the questions here that were not asked at these forums. I think it would have furthered the debate.
because of this I have two objections to "no votes" based on there are other things the district can do. One objection is... I never heard these suggestions at any of the forums, and the second objection is that the board didn't wake up one morning and say "let's threaten the school district today". So my objection is... Where were all these questions and suggestions from this thread during the last 5 years. The referendum didn't sneak up on us.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 27 2007,1:24 pm
(january @ Oct. 27 2007,9:10 am)
QUOTE
Stand 44:
I think Busybee knows MORE than a bit about NCLB and AYP. She knows a whole lot!!!
I think TEAM underestimated people this time when they campaigned. Just because the District and the Board glossed over test scores does not mean the public did not read between the lines.
Yesterday on KATE radio the program featured Superintendent Prescott, Ken Peterson from the school board and TEAM representatives.
Many questions were about test scores. In fact I tried several times to get through and was unable due to the busy lines.
Darryl said that he was really surprised by the interest the public has shown in this referendum.
I do not know how this thing will come out and I have no gauge to determine as I am not canvassing District 241 households and quizzing folks to confirm that magic number of 5000 YES votes.
I do know that substance is relevant.
I do know that no matter how this thing unfolds none of us will ever go back to the way it once was.
And that is a good thing.
I think Busybee knows MORE than a bit about NCLB and AYP. She knows a whole lot!!!
I think TEAM underestimated people this time when they campaigned. Just because the District and the Board glossed over test scores does not mean the public did not read between the lines.
Yesterday on KATE radio the program featured Superintendent Prescott, Ken Peterson from the school board and TEAM representatives.
Many questions were about test scores. In fact I tried several times to get through and was unable due to the busy lines.
Darryl said that he was really surprised by the interest the public has shown in this referendum.
I do not know how this thing will come out and I have no gauge to determine as I am not canvassing District 241 households and quizzing folks to confirm that magic number of 5000 YES votes.
I do know that substance is relevant.
I do know that no matter how this thing unfolds none of us will ever go back to the way it once was.
And that is a good thing.
I am thoroughly confused by your last statement.
Posted by medic on Oct. 27 2007,2:41 pm
44 your right this did not sneak up on us. I guess if one had time to attend all the scholl board meetings and what not we would have seen this coming a lot better. But I thought we had people "a board" that was suppose to make this all better. Maybe if 241 would have sold the old high school instead of giving it away they would have had more money. I wonder if the new high school still has A.L. Electric on staff for the numbers of issues the new school has. I thought when we got taxed for the new school this was going to fix everything. It has not. The dist. has made many of mistake's. Including paying 1 cent of the bill for the new school. It looks like blind carpenters built it. Carpet seems that a blind man could see. Look at the stairs, the metal runners are not close to being level. I understand there is/was a leaking issue from the roof. Bruce Olson even told us on a tour for the first 2 years it was to small, but Bruce told us numbers are going to fall after that and it is going to be just fine then. They new we were losing students and that was before the new scholl was done! Maybe they'll just ask again next year.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 27 2007,3:02 pm
QUOTE
because of this I have two objections to "no votes" based on there are other things the district can do. One objection is... I never heard these suggestions at any of the forums,
By Forums, I take it you meant debate at the school board level. One person, or even a small group has little power when addressing an elected board. There is no mandate for them to even consider a suggestion or request. An analogy can be drawn to the State or National political process--most people are not galvanized into action until a position is staked out by one party or the other. In any case, it matters not a lot WHEN the debate occurs, just that it DOES occur.QUOTE
and the second objection is that the board didn't wake up one morning and say "let's threaten the school district today".
I won't use the word "threaten", but the referendum WAS considered last year, notice was sent this summer to teachers (but not to the general public) to expect it. I checked the date that the referendum was announced to the public this year--September 5--only 2 MONTHS from the date announced until voting date. Nobody can deny that it hasn't been a LIVELY couple of months!
QUOTE
So my objection is... Where were all these questions and suggestions from this thread during the last 5 years. The referendum didn't sneak up on us.
No, it didn't sneak up on us. A review of the Tribune back issues shows that referendums were held in 2001, 2002, 2006, and now 2007. They are the same issues, and the same proposals. The referendum DIDN'T "sneak up on us"--on the very next day after the defeat last year, they announced that they would just bring it back this year. Why do they have to keep bringing it back? Because there have been few fundamental changes in the school district budget over the years.
The only choices presented to the public is whether to vote Yes or NO. We shouldn't have to vote for a bad bill. Kill it, and tell the Administration to come back with something BETTER.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 27 2007,3:08 pm
Let's try something POSITIVE. Please go to the School Board link for budget reduction null< My Webpage > and see if there are ANY areas you think can be cut. There are $5 million in cuts available there--identify where YOU think we can make cuts.Don't be afraid to make PARTIAL cuts--you don't have to cut an entire program, for example.
If you are feeling ambitious, take it to another level. Make it your mission to cut a MILLION DOLLARS out of the budget.
Should be an interesting exercise.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 27 2007,4:04 pm
(busybee @ Oct. 27 2007,9:27 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
You seem to know a bit about NCLB. Therefore, you might want to speak to the local expert on NCLB. This person is paid a handsome amount of money to know all the ins and outs of NCLB and all the requirements and such. Her name is Judy Knudtson. I offer these warnings if you choose to speak with her. 1) make sure you have plenty of time. She loves data and loves to talk about it. 2) Be ready for the "there is no easy way to explain NCLB comment".
Did you automatically "assume" that I don't know Judy Knudtson so you thought throwing her name out there would surprise me or something? :frusty:
I like Judy, always have. She's always been extremely motivated, caring and mindful of her role in the district. I appreciate her dedication, even her dedicated comment, "there is no easy way to explain NCLB comment," because she's right.
QUOTE
Now for some thoughts. I like to use sports analogies. In the late 80's my basketball team made the state tournament. In our first game we were beaten in overtime. Every position on that team (the guards, forwards, and centers) all tried their absolute best. The centers however were the only players not to shoot 60% or better from the Free-throw line (I was the starting center). Now one group of players didn't reach the goal for the team to be successful... in a sense we had failed as we had certainly failed to win. Despite all this, no one ever called us as a team, school or community failures.
Is that honestly the message your hearing from people who don't support the referendum as it is or from NCLB academic goals?
What I hear as the message is...
Improving academics in reading, math, science and technology WILL increase the potential for more students to be college ready and generate a greater understanding of the need as future ADULTS to be competitive in a global economy and workforce.
You and I can sit all day and dispute about the defects in the process of NCLB, AYP, the achievement gap, test scores, special ed, ell, free & reduced lunches, kids attitudes, poor parenting and on and on. That will NOT change the intended goal of the message. The message is we CAN improve, we WILL do better.
Life is full of failures and successes. We can be grateful for both...greatness is earned, not given.
QUOTE
Yes, the district is listed as a failing school. Yes it is because one subgroup didn't meet AYP. I disagree however with the label of a "Failing District" when there is so much that is positive. In addition, all schools except Lakeview are addressing the area where the district failed (one subgroup in math only) by mandating that all teachers strive to improve math scores in some manner in their classroom. Lakeview chose a reading goal as that is the only area where their school didn't make AYP.
If the presentation is "give us the money to keep things as they are or we could cut all of these things," do you think that is a positively informed message that they're actually going to plan for & impliment goals towards academic improvements in the schools?
QUOTE
As for the 11th graders passing at 22%. Please! Please! Please! remember that these kids have been tested from here until Christmas and the MCA-II's that you refer to DO NOT COUNT FOR THE STUDENTS THAT TOOK THEM! What motivation is there for these kids? The only schools in the Big 9 that passed more than 70% of their 11th graders in math we Mayo and Century and they didn't play by the rules (an honest mistake that they will correct next year). Otherwise, Albert Lea scored better than Austin and Winona and was close to about 3 other schools in the % of students that passed.
So, I guess you believe we can't build anything better in academics at ALHS? That's too bad if you do.
As far as motivations, look to the district and the community for making this about "sports, extra curriculars, clean schools," ect... We lead, they will follow by example.
QUOTE
I will gladly stand with you in your criticism of the school when the 11th graders do not pass and they needed to. Until the tests count, I really don't care about the 11th grade math test. As far as NCLB goes, the High school does not need to meet those standards as they do not recieve any title I monies.
Well, someone other than you cares. Jeesh, even the MN Dept of Ed cares!
Yes, I know ALHS is not a Title I school. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be exploring new & improved methods to increase academic achievement of ALL the students there.
I agree that you and I could sit all day and discuss.
I care about real measurement. Not some test that kids are supposed to care about just because their teacher tells them to. Maybe you think if our teachers tell the kids to eat their veggies, maybe they will automatically start liking broccoli. You and I both know it doesn't work that way.
Once again... I am perfectly ok with waiting to judge the district when the students who take the tests actually have a stake in passing the tests.
As far as my suggestion that you speak with Judy K, You seemed a little snippy that I did assume you knew Judy. Is there anyone else I should be assuming you know?
My point was, is, and will remain that I am OK with criticism that the staff has some measure of control over. I stated earlier that I had the opportunity to administer the MAke-UP MCA-II's. I also explained that some of the kids simply made sure their name was correct and handed it in. In the spring of 2009, I might be able to say something that will get a kid to rethink just turning in a test that isn't complete. For now, the kids have the better response and I am not smart enough to be able to explain to a student why it is in his/her best interest to take a four hour test for the fun of it.
As for NCLB, I believe that AL Public Schools would try to improve whether or not NCLB was there or not. I believe that teachers want to be better at their jobs. I believe that being good at what one does leads to higher job satisfaction. I also believe that calling a school failing simply because it doesn't meet all the goals (13 out of 14) set by 535 people 2000 miles away is a little ridiculous.
By the way... Not only do I believe that the goals of NCLB are unrealistic, I believe that the law itself is unconstitutional as well as teh department of ed, and all laws Congress makes in the realm of education.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 27 2007,4:43 pm
School District Property Tax InformationDistrict State
Average Home value 91,108.95 178,972.00
Average School District
Property Tax per Home 291.23 556.00
Average School District Property 319.65 311.00
Tax per $100,000 of Home Value
after Credits
**So if we take the $319.65 a year that we pay now and add $10.42 a month IF the referendum passes that would make our yearly average school district property tax on $100,000.00 house:
$449.65 a year for just the school district portion of the property taxes? Is that correct?
And if so, does TEAM put that in their pamphlet or do they just put the "it will just increase your taxes by 10.42 a month."
The reason I ask this, and I am asking to make sure this is the case, is that $10.42 doesn't seem like very much a month BUT $449.65 a yr is SIGNIFICANT.
The 10.42 a month without adding that it would ultimately cost a taxpayer $449.65 a yr. is very misleading
Posted by bianca on Oct. 27 2007,4:47 pm
stand44I am looking for the thread where I posted the percentages transferring out vs transferring in, bear with me. I want to answer your question but I also want it to be correct and have a source.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 27 2007,5:05 pm
QUOTE
By the way... Not only do I believe that the goals of NCLB are unrealistic, I believe that the law itself is unconstitutional as well as teh department of ed, and all laws Congress makes in the realm of education.
Nonetheless it IS a gauge, what would be a better indicator of success or failure for all students?
QUOTE
I also explained that some of the kids simply made sure their name was correct and handed it in.
Tell me that you don't think this has ALWAYS happened with some students with these 4 hour tests? I remember this happening when I was in school 34 years ago taking these state tests. I was a A, B, student and I even did this, because they were so long and tedious that at the end you just start filling things in blindly. I would hope that any type of results would take that into consideration.
QUOTE
In the spring of 2009, I might be able to say something that will get a kid to rethink just turning in a test that isn't complete.
I can't see this happening, IMO, there will always be the kids that do this. The district and state I'm pretty sure would take this into consideration.
QUOTE
Until the tests count, I really don't care about the 11th grade math test.
IMO,This is truly a very sad statement from any parent to make regarding any students tests. I hope this isn't the feeling of TEAM members. What do you care about as a gauge of success for an 11th grade math test?
Posted by january on Oct. 27 2007,5:41 pm
BiancaAccording to the Minnesota Dept of Ed web the numbers for District 241 are: students transferring into this District are 124 and the students transferring out are 220
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 27 2007,5:41 pm
Good call Bianca. That's a whopping 33% increase! Make no mistake about it. TEAM is asking for a 33% increase in school taxes....YIKES!
Posted by january on Oct. 27 2007,5:56 pm
Wildjim:To answer your question I do not know.
I do not know exactly what encompasses "Administative Costs" in District 241, do you?
Does every District calculate it the exact same way?
Does every District use the same jobs with the same titles to calculate?
I ask this because I worked at a place where we too had Federal and State mandates governing our work.
Depending upon the title of an individual, the facility had the ability to move staff salaries around so that the budget was calculated a certain way.
I think too job descriptions may play a role in this.
Example: a couple of years back the Glenville/Emmons schools' superintendent was also the principal of the high school, a teacher, a coach. He had many jobs there.
The same is true for the Alden/Conger district.
I understand that these Districts are smaller but I think you get the idea.
Why don't you tell us how it works here.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 27 2007,6:19 pm
thanks january for the numbers, I had seen that also on their site but I know I posted about this previously and a couple of LEARN members asked me about it also. Thanks for helping to clear it up. I can't find it so, it must be a mistake, I must have the figures confused with something else but that's no excuse when a group is trying to get legitimate info out. sorry if this caused confusion. I'm glad stand questioned it so we could look into it. I "stand " corrected
IMO, I actually like when people ask things like this so these numbers can be proven or laid to rest, that's the nice thing about the forum.....you better have your ducks in a row or you will be shot down
Always a good idea to post sources or links.Thanks 3T- did you like that one
It is quite a significant number and I could see where the elderly on fixed incomes would have trouble with this, even when they do want to support it.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 27 2007,6:35 pm
Yes, TEAM makes it sound like it's only a $100 increase per $100K of home value, ...ain't no biggie...but it's a whopping 33% increase above and beyond existing taxes! Yowza! Hrmmm, I wonder why don't they tell us they'd like a 33% increase in school taxes.
No, I don't wonder...I know why...
Posted by FlyguyAL on Oct. 27 2007,7:34 pm
QUOTE
That means voters can vote no, yes no, or yes yes.
< http://www.albertleatribune.com/articles/2007/10/28/news/news3.txt >
< http://www.albertleatribune.com/articles/2007/10/28/news/news3.txt >
The way I read the ballot question there is another option, no no. I have talked with others about this and all agree no no is an option.
Unless I have missed something and a no vote on the first question counts as a no vote on the second. I don't think I have.
Looking at the Tribune poll a no only vote would be the equivalent to no yes because even though you voted no for the first question the second would also pass.
I'm not saying no no will be my vote. That is between the ballot and me.
But, when the Tribune is trying to inform people and the information is wrong it bothers me.
Of course if I'm wrong please let me know.
Posted by Spidey on Oct. 27 2007,8:11 pm
(FlyguyAL @ Oct. 27 2007,7:34 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
That means voters can vote no, yes no, or yes yes.
< http://www.albertleatribune.com/articles/2007/10/28/news/news3.txt >
< http://www.albertleatribune.com/articles/2007/10/28/news/news3.txt >
The way I read the ballot question there is another option, no no. I have talked with others about this and all agree no no is an option.
Unless I have missed something and a no vote on the first question counts as a no vote on the second. I don't think I have.
Looking at the Tribune poll a no only vote would be the equivalent to no yes because even though you voted no for the first question the second would also pass.
I'm not saying no no will be my vote. That is between the ballot and me.
But, when the Tribune is trying to inform people and the information is wrong it bothers me.
Of course if I'm wrong please let me know.
If you vote no on the first part - the second part automatically fails. Therefore, there is no voting on the second part, so the paper reported this correctly.
Posted by Spidey on Oct. 27 2007,8:18 pm
I have not seen the LEARN signs in yards at all, so I don't even know what they look like or what they say. Can someone post a picture of one on here? Everytime I go out I make a point to try and find one, but so far nothing.
Posted by january on Oct. 27 2007,8:49 pm
In response to your last post. I am stunned.
I believe we have far deeper problems than I had ever imagined.
You yourself stated and I quote "I care about real measurement not some test that kids are supposed to care about just because their teacher tells them to"
You said you administered the make-up MCA II's, so you are part of the District 241 staff.
Don't you think if that is your attitude that attitude is going to filter down to the students?
You said you like sports.
Isn't motivation a prime characteristic of a winning team/coach.
Take a look at Hoosiers. That coach believed his team could win the State Championship. That coach motivated his team. He was also strict, consistent, and driven. He had expectations of his players and set the goal high. He believed they would meet those expectations and they did.
He made those players play hard and seriously at every practice even if that practice was just practice and didn't really count like a real game would.
He didn't say to those players "I care about real measurement not some practice that the players are supposed to care about just because I told them to.
They mirrored his vision for them.
And he worked with each and every player, even the player that was not at all talented on the court. Remember he stood at the 2 point line and flipped the ball into the basket underhanded.
He told that player, we are counting on you, you can do it and that player got the winning points so that the team would be able to go to State.
Attitude and motivation start at the top
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 27 2007,9:06 pm
(Spidey @ Oct. 27 2007,8:18 pm)
QUOTE
I have not seen the LEARN signs in yards at all,
Got one in my yard, but then , you know, I"m just negative.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 27 2007,10:09 pm
I put a sign on a womans yard the other day, per her request, and she said,"ok, if I have this up my house isn't going to get spray painted is it?" I wonder how many other people are afraid to show support to LEARN because of that. She said, "some of these people are getting vicious."I had just had our pamphlets printed and I gave her a couple, within an hour she called me and said, "I want more of those to pass out, these are really good.
I'm going to pass them out whenever I have a chance. There's a lot of people that are voting this thing down that are upset with TEAM" I thought we did a good job on them too, thanks guys and gal,
but I'm partial The pamphlets are yellow as I'm sure you will see them around and have a lot of pertinent facts and things to think about before November 6th.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 27 2007,10:16 pm
spidey- I don't think you will miss them if they are in a yard, they are taller and on a vibrant yellow foam poster board. I'm still getting them out to areas that have a lot of traffic.Shoreland is peppered with TEAM signs so don't look for any LEARN signs there, I don't want to get in a contest of who can put more signs up in a neighborhood, it's been more the middle class or elderly that have requested them.
Posted by MAKER on Oct. 27 2007,10:19 pm
Maybe this was brought up in an earlier post, but do you think more people would have been happier if all the $$ spent on the Main Street Lighting and the new Island bridge could have done more for the community if it was spent on the school? Then maybe there wouldn't need to be a referendum or wouldn't have to ask for so much.
I keep hearing that the lighting was supposed to bring people into town, and that a great school system will too.
I think $$ spent on the school would bring people and businesses into Albert Lea faster than lights and an island bridge.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 27 2007,10:27 pm
Bianca,We have kids not only passing Trig tests, geometry test, calculus test, but also earning college credit for Math while in high school (these courses are evaluated by college staff). Many of our graduates get to college (sorry I don't have any supporting numbers, but I have spoken with a number of grads over the years) and test out of math. I am certain that more than 22% of our 11th graders could pass this test if they felt it was worth their time.
What do I consider a good test of their knowledge you ask? How about a math teacher that had to earn a college degree, and in some cases a masters degree in Mathematics making a professional judgement that the students in their class can meet the expectations that they have set for the students.
I agree, kids have been doing this (blowing off tests) since you and I were in school. But not until recently did we call these schools "failing schools" and threaten to withhold money because of it. What happens when these students blow off these tests in 2014 when all must meet the requirements? I received a great education from my school district when I grew up. As far as I know all the students in my classes had the same opportunity to achieve same as me. My parents held no position of power. My father was a turkey farmer. My mother was a part time nurse. I received no special educational opportunities. The difference between me and the kids blowing off tests, IMO, is that my parents made me (taught me to) care. The only thing I ever worried about in school is that I might not do well and my parents would be disappointed or in some instances mad.
I do strongly disagree that NCLB is a "gauge...of success or failure for all students". It is no such thing. If it were a gauge of success or failure for every STUDENT, then they would put the names of the failing students in the paper. It is a gauge of success or failure for school districts, and not a good one at that. It is possible to have every student in every subgroup but one ace these tests. In the sub group that didn't have everyone ace these test, they could have enough not try (and that number can be a relatively low number), and fail, and the school would be listed as failing. IN the case of Albert Lea, that may mean that 1125 students could ACE the test and have less that 20 not pass causing AL Schools to be labeled as Failing.
I would be happy if the label of "Failing school" was taken out and schools used the data for improvement only. These test (when they count for the students) can be great tools to demonstrate where a school needs improvement. Instead, of pointing to where improvement is needed, they have become a tool for the community to point the finger of disappointment at the school. This is where people have posted that they cannot support a school districts attempt to maintain when the school is labeled a failing school. This use of these tests in no way helps our children, our schools, or our community.
Posted by FlyguyAL on Oct. 27 2007,10:29 pm
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 27 2007,10:33 pm
(FlyguyAL @ Oct. 27 2007,7:34 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
That means voters can vote no, yes no, or yes yes.
< http://www.albertleatribune.com/articles/2007/10/28/news/news3.txt >
< http://www.albertleatribune.com/articles/2007/10/28/news/news3.txt >
The way I read the ballot question there is another option, no no. I have talked with others about this and all agree no no is an option.
Unless I have missed something and a no vote on the first question counts as a no vote on the second. I don't think I have.
Looking at the Tribune poll a no only vote would be the equivalent to no yes because even though you voted no for the first question the second would also pass.
I'm not saying no no will be my vote. That is between the ballot and me.
But, when the Tribune is trying to inform people and the information is wrong it bothers me.
Of course if I'm wrong please let me know.
I know that in the past, if a person voted on anything, but did not vote on the referendum question, their ballot counted as a "no". So if you only vote "no" I am almost certain that you do not need to vote on question 2. If you vote yes on question 1 and do not vote on question 2, I believe question 2 will be counted as a "no".
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 27 2007,10:48 pm
(january @ Oct. 27 2007,8:49 pm)
QUOTE
In response to your last post.
I am stunned.
I believe we have far deeper problems than I had ever imagined.
You yourself stated and I quote "I care about real measurement not some test that kids are supposed to care about just because their teacher tells them to"
You said you administered the make-up MCA II's, so you are part of the District 241 staff.
Don't you think if that is your attitude that attitude is going to filter down to the students?
You said you like sports.
Isn't motivation a prime characteristic of a winning team/coach.
Take a look at Hoosiers. That coach believed his team could win the State Championship. That coach motivated his team. He was also strict, consistent, and driven. He had expectations of his players and set the goal high. He believed they would meet those expectations and they did.
He made those players play hard and seriously at every practice even if that practice was just practice and didn't really count like a real game would.
He didn't say to those players "I care about real measurement not some practice that the players are supposed to care about just because I told them to.
They mirrored his vision for them.
And he worked with each and every player, even the player that was not at all talented on the court. Remember he stood at the 2 point line and flipped the ball into the basket underhanded.
He told that player, we are counting on you, you can do it and that player got the winning points so that the team would be able to go to State.
Attitude and motivation start at the top
I am stunned.
I believe we have far deeper problems than I had ever imagined.
You yourself stated and I quote "I care about real measurement not some test that kids are supposed to care about just because their teacher tells them to"
You said you administered the make-up MCA II's, so you are part of the District 241 staff.
Don't you think if that is your attitude that attitude is going to filter down to the students?
You said you like sports.
Isn't motivation a prime characteristic of a winning team/coach.
Take a look at Hoosiers. That coach believed his team could win the State Championship. That coach motivated his team. He was also strict, consistent, and driven. He had expectations of his players and set the goal high. He believed they would meet those expectations and they did.
He made those players play hard and seriously at every practice even if that practice was just practice and didn't really count like a real game would.
He didn't say to those players "I care about real measurement not some practice that the players are supposed to care about just because I told them to.
They mirrored his vision for them.
And he worked with each and every player, even the player that was not at all talented on the court. Remember he stood at the 2 point line and flipped the ball into the basket underhanded.
He told that player, we are counting on you, you can do it and that player got the winning points so that the team would be able to go to State.
Attitude and motivation start at the top
A couple responses.
I didn't say I worked for the school district. I said I administered the make up tests.
Quite a few differences between Hoosiers and MCA-II's:
1) The kids in Hoosiers had the same goals as the coach, not because he was their coach, but because they had chosen to be there. They also had overwhelming community support (I wonder what the 11th grade students at ALHS would say if they were surveyed about the level of support they feel coming from this community when it comes to their academics).
2) That was like 300 years ago, ok not quite, but it might as well have been. When Norman Dale disciplined a player, the parent backed up the coach. When the kid quit the team, the dad brought the kid back and made him apologize in front of a crowd. We live in much different times. I know of a coach who almost got sued in AL for not playing a kid. Have you ever heard of a teacher getting blasted by a parent because their child isn't learning? If you want to see that happen to a coach, pick a day and attend a game. It happens almost every night that there is competition. IMHO it is the kids that struggle the most that get some of the least support from their parents (in the form of taking responsibility rather than blaming the schools. Ask a teacher what the problem is with conferences, and I bet they agree that the kids that could benefit the most form Parent-Teacher conferences have parents that do not show up).
3) Teachers in District 241 can and do work individually with the students. I have seen it. From my observations, I get very frustrated as those students with the least ability get IMO more than their fair share of attention leaving the middle ground students to fend for themselves. I am not saying that they do not need more help or that they shouldn't get more help. It is where ths line is drawn that frustrates me.
4) Attitudes that filter down... once again... parents have had these kids for 16 or 17 years. These individual teachers may have had these kids for 7 months. Who do you think should be instilling this positive attitude in the kids? Not much a teacher can do when the kid does not come in with motivation.
5) Attitude and motivation do start at the top. However, we all have free will. A child can choose to be motivated in other ways. If it does start at the top, here is a hierarchy of a school system:
1. Community
2. School Board
3. Superintendent
4. Administration
5. Teaching staff
6. Support Staff
7. Students
Who is at the top? What message does the community want to send on Nov. 6 that will motivate these kids to do well on these tests? What message will be given to help these students believe that these test, in fact education, is important to this community?
Posted by Spidey on Oct. 27 2007,10:56 pm
(bianca @ Oct. 27 2007,10:16 pm)
QUOTE
spidey- I don't think you will miss them if they are in a yard, they are taller and on a vibrant yellow foam poster board. I'm still getting them out to areas that have a lot of traffic.
Shoreland is peppered with TEAM signs so don't look for any LEARN signs there, I don't want to get in a contest of who can put more signs up in a neighborhood, it's been more the middle class or elderly that have requested them.
Shoreland is peppered with TEAM signs so don't look for any LEARN signs there, I don't want to get in a contest of who can put more signs up in a neighborhood, it's been more the middle class or elderly that have requested them.
How hard would it be to add a PDF or Word file onto this forum with the flyer? Also a picture of the sign would be good. November 6 will be here before you know it and there isn't a lot of time to get these out to everyone. I would think this would be a good venue and besides that I would like to see them. I'm sure others would too.
I wasn't insinuating that you get into a contest.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 27 2007,11:34 pm
JanuaryI don't have all the answers. But my understanding is that there are accounting guidlines but the districts don't all account for things the same way. But the concerns you have about the admin costs could be said about the maint numbers u posted. But you most hold thigs that support your view to a different standard.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 28 2007,7:59 am
spidey-I didn't mean anything like that with my post, I was just explaining where they could be seen. You seem a little defensive, what gives?
I've mentioned numerous times that I am computer illiterate, the signs are homemade. I don't have a digital camera to upload a photo and I have no idea about a pdf file thingamajig.
Maybe Maddog can post
Posted by Spidey on Oct. 28 2007,8:41 am
(bianca @ Oct. 28 2007,7:59 am)
QUOTE
spidey-
I didn't mean anything like that with my post, I was just explaining where they could be seen. You seem a little defensive, what gives?
I've mentioned numerous times that I am computer illiterate, the signs are homemade. I don't have a digital camera to upload a photo and I have no idea about a pdf file thingamajig.
Maybe Maddog can post
I didn't mean anything like that with my post, I was just explaining where they could be seen. You seem a little defensive, what gives?
I've mentioned numerous times that I am computer illiterate, the signs are homemade. I don't have a digital camera to upload a photo and I have no idea about a pdf file thingamajig.
Maybe Maddog can post
Sorry, not defensive at all. I was up late last night so maybe I came off that way.
I was just thinking this would be a good place to put them for others to see. Do you have the flyer on your computer? If so, you could send it to me.
Posted by january on Oct. 28 2007,3:22 pm
Stand 44: I read an interesting story and I shorten, change, paraphrase and quote due to length
In summary the story is about a poor Hispanic student who was not doing well academically.
He was failing everything.
A meeting was set up to find out why. (the meeting was set up not by his mother but by friends of his mother as the mother worked for these friends caring for their child)
The meeting was led by a guidance counselor and several of the students' teachers attended. .
The counselor proceeded to spend most of the time ciriticizing and challenging the student about his academic apathy.
The meeting quickly moved into dueling accusations about the student and his classroom habits.
The students science teacher joined the chorus "This student is the problem" suggesting that there were no other explanations for his poor prerformance.
Stating , he does not do his homework. He does not pay attention in class. He doesn't make an effort.
Then his English teacher joined the chorus of criticism. Her primary interest was in absolving herself saying "I don't fail students, they fail themselves".
No one explicitly said "The student can't learn. Their complaint was that he won't learn and the underlying message was we have done all we can and its' his fault.
Or substitute:
His communities fault
Or his single mothers fault
Or his socio-economic station in life' fault
Or his minority status station in life' fault
Or the environment he lives in fault
"The biggest barrier to academic success is not the baggage kids carry into the classroom but the core beliefs adults carry in."
Mike Feinberg co-founder of KIPP said it best
"We have two options. We can shrug our shoulders and sit there and say 'What can we do about it?'. It is because of families. It is because of the community. It is because of their former schools or teachers, or because of society. Or we can say you know what it might be someone elses problem, but now it is ours and we need to do something about it."
The shocking post where you relayed from your own personal experience that students at ALHS took the MCA II make-up tests signed their name and handed them in blank and then your even more shocking admission that you really couldn't blame them because the tests didn't count anyway was a wake-up call for me.
I repeat, we have far deeper problems than I ever imagined.
I called my sister who has small children. I told her what ever you do....do not send those kids to District 241.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 28 2007,4:17 pm
Spidey-The signs will be shown on KAAL at the 10:00 broadcast. Let's see how much is edited out, I put in a few plugs for albertlea.com for information.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 28 2007,5:38 pm
Look for our trifolds:LEARN…LET’S EDUCATE AND ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY NOW is a group of citizens who want accountability and choice in our spending in District 241.
Turn this bill down in order to create the best quality in District 241 education. Let’s revisit it next year so we can all be part of prioritizing the choices available for our children’s education with our tax dollars. We believe it is time to move forward in our efforts and become a community of educators, rather than depending on a few to make the choices that effect our children’s education.
LEARN does not think this referendum should be supported—especially a flawed bill that will reach far out into the future. We are not simply searching for “no” votes, we are concerned for the future of our students and community.
A Proposed Community Dialogue
As it is, a few people decide what is “best” and our choice is limited to voting Yes or No on their measure. We believe opening a community dialogue is necessary so we can discuss issues to determine the priorities, needs and wants of our schools.
A community dialogue would involve at least the following items:
Keep or cut an elementary school: By District 241’s Administration’s own proposals, keeping an additional school open is a million dollar a year proposition. We have to ask, ”What ELSE could we do with that money to achieve excellence?” Taxpayers may very well figure that having an additional school open IS the best use of a million dollars, and if that is the decision, so be it. Taxpayers SHOULD be able to have input.
Comparative choices: On the school board website—there are a NUMBER of cost-saving possibilities. For example, we can save a substantial amount of money by going to contract janitorial services instead of district employees—at no detriment to students. Would we rather have our own janitors, or have our children walk to school?
Priorities: Set the budget, and let the PUBLIC decide the priorities. No one wants to see any “extra” program cut. However, if it comes down to ensuring that adequate academic needs are met and improving—it should not be hard to make that choice. Academic excellence comes first.
Top down: People making budget cuts usually start at the bottom, and work up. It takes a LOT of janitorial wages to equal one administrator’s salary.
Guarantees: The Administration has given no guarantees that they will not cut programs if given the money and/or that achievement levels will improve. We would like to see the Administration make a solid commitment that states, ”If you give us this money, this is what we will do.
Options: We feel the Administration has over-reached by requesting 2 million dollars. We feel that there is a “middle ground” attainable by next year. By developing a dialogue, setting priorities, considering options, and getting guarantees. Perhaps the best thing would be to propose a “Give us One Million in cuts, we’ll give you One Million in levy taxes.”
That is a win for both sides—fiscal responsibility, money to sustain programs, community involvement, while meeting our obligations to student academic progression.
No Child Left Behind
Our district has failed the Annual Yearly Progress goal in the No Child Left Behind testing for three years in the core subjects of Reading and Math. There appears to be no stated goals of what the district remedies will be.
Consequences for not making AYP by sanctions…
Year 1-Offer school choice
Year 2-Provide supplemental services
Year 3-Needs Improvement
Year 4-Corrective action
Year 5-Restructuring or take over
FACT: NCLB is not going to disappear. Each year the target benchmark increases on accountability for academic success. 100% proficiency is expected for our district & schools by 2016.
FACT: There was not an increase in the target benchmark for the past two years, however District 241 added another school in not making AYP in the second year.
FACT: Albert Lea High School has failed AYP two years in a row.
FACT: District 241 is currently sanctioned as a district in “needs improvement” status.
We need to push ahead for academic success and away from consequences.
Our Community
District 241, TEAM, The Chamber, ALEDA, and the Albert Lea Tribune have consistently stated that passing referendums makes good schools and increases community growth. We have heard this reason many times and in 1997 we voted for the 35 million dollar referendum.
According to the census bureau, Albert Lea’s population is 17,758 people. In 2000, when the new high school opened the population was 18,356. From 2000 to 2007 Albert Lea is at a NEGATIVE population growth of -3.26 percent. We have lost 598 people.
Unfortunately for our community, the school district referendums are not an absolute given toward academic success or community growth and prosperity. Obviously, we need a better plan for local school funding so our schools will in fact be more attractive to others. How could we accomplish this?
ACADEMIC AWARENESS
The following percentages is from the Minnesota Department of Education website. This is currently where District 241 rates when looking at a combination of all testing measures.
ALHS math, not proficient, 77.06%
DISTRICT math, not proficient, 48.55%
STATE (MN), not proficient, 41.28%
ALHS reading, not proficient, 44.7%
DISTRICT math, not proficient, 33.96%
STATE (MN), not proficient, 31.63%
Not only do we need to raise our proficiency district wide, we believe it is essential to recognize and focus SPECIFICALLY on how academics at our high school will be improved.
The aesthetics of the high school are excellent—anyone contemplating moving here will be pleased with the new school building. Investigating in-depth high school academic achievement in reading & math certainly tells a different story.
The future of students, our community and our state depend upon graduates who are prepared for college. We don’t think passing a referendum to keep things the same will suffice.
The Referendum Campaign
The Administration/TEAM has mailed and distributed pro-referendum material. Students are being prompted, "have your parents vote for the referendum, or we may have limited classes next year,” etc. The District invites people to meet with TEAM in the SCHOOL FACILITIES (a tacit approval of TEAM, and an advantage not afforded to anti-referendum advocates). The district allows pro-referendum posters and signs in the schools. This hardly seems "fair and balanced," especially when the majority of campaign expenses is paid for by taxpayers.
These types of issues were submitted to the Minnesota Attorney General’s office. Their opinion specifically states, “the public funds entrusted to the board belong equally to the proponents and opponents of the proposition, and the use of the funds to pay not just for the presentation of facts only, but also to persuade the voters to side with one position, only, is NOT a proper use of public funds.”
As parents we teach our children to ask questions and to make comparative decisions. As children grow up, they have to realize that they can't have EVERYTHING they want, simply because they say so. Choices must be made. We do not want them to blindly follow others.
We all EXPECT accountability and responsibility. We believe that as a community we can come together for the sake of the kids and together we can all LEARN--Let's Educate and Accept Responsibility NOW!
Don’t accept a flawed bill. You have rights to more choices than Yes or NO. Vote it down, and let’s do it RIGHT!
Contact: T. Lynch
B. Bashans
Paid for by the members of LEARN
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 28 2007,7:09 pm
(bianca @ Oct. 28 2007,5:38 pm)
QUOTE
Look for our trifolds:
LEARN…LET’S EDUCATE AND ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY NOW is a group of citizens who want accountability and choice in our spending in District 241.
Turn this bill down in order to create the best quality in District 241 education. Let’s revisit it next year so we can all be part of prioritizing the choices available for our children’s education with our tax dollars. We believe it is time to move forward in our efforts and become a community of educators, rather than depending on a few to make the choices that effect our children’s education.
LEARN does not think this referendum should be supported—especially a flawed bill that will reach far out into the future. We are not simply searching for “no” votes, we are concerned for the future of our students and community.
A Proposed Community Dialogue
As it is, a few people decide what is “best” and our choice is limited to voting Yes or No on their measure. We believe opening a community dialogue is necessary so we can discuss issues to determine the priorities, needs and wants of our schools.
A community dialogue would involve at least the following items:
Keep or cut an elementary school: By District 241’s Administration’s own proposals, keeping an additional school open is a million dollar a year proposition. We have to ask, ”What ELSE could we do with that money to achieve excellence?” Taxpayers may very well figure that having an additional school open IS the best use of a million dollars, and if that is the decision, so be it. Taxpayers SHOULD be able to have input.
Comparative choices: On the school board website—there are a NUMBER of cost-saving possibilities. For example, we can save a substantial amount of money by going to contract janitorial services instead of district employees—at no detriment to students. Would we rather have our own janitors, or have our children walk to school?
Priorities: Set the budget, and let the PUBLIC decide the priorities. No one wants to see any “extra” program cut. However, if it comes down to ensuring that adequate academic needs are met and improving—it should not be hard to make that choice. Academic excellence comes first.
Top down: People making budget cuts usually start at the bottom, and work up. It takes a LOT of janitorial wages to equal one administrator’s salary.
Guarantees: The Administration has given no guarantees that they will not cut programs if given the money and/or that achievement levels will improve. We would like to see the Administration make a solid commitment that states, ”If you give us this money, this is what we will do.
Options: We feel the Administration has over-reached by requesting 2 million dollars. We feel that there is a “middle ground” attainable by next year. By developing a dialogue, setting priorities, considering options, and getting guarantees. Perhaps the best thing would be to propose a “Give us One Million in cuts, we’ll give you One Million in levy taxes.”
That is a win for both sides—fiscal responsibility, money to sustain programs, community involvement, while meeting our obligations to student academic progression.
No Child Left Behind
Our district has failed the Annual Yearly Progress goal in the No Child Left Behind testing for three years in the core subjects of Reading and Math. There appears to be no stated goals of what the district remedies will be.
Consequences for not making AYP by sanctions…
Year 1-Offer school choice
Year 2-Provide supplemental services
Year 3-Needs Improvement
Year 4-Corrective action
Year 5-Restructuring or take over
FACT: NCLB is not going to disappear. Each year the target benchmark increases on accountability for academic success. 100% proficiency is expected for our district & schools by 2016.
FACT: There was not an increase in the target benchmark for the past two years, however District 241 added another school in not making AYP in the second year.
FACT: Albert Lea High School has failed AYP two years in a row.
FACT: District 241 is currently sanctioned as a district in “needs improvement” status.
We need to push ahead for academic success and away from consequences.
Our Community
District 241, TEAM, The Chamber, ALEDA, and the Albert Lea Tribune have consistently stated that passing referendums makes good schools and increases community growth. We have heard this reason many times and in 1997 we voted for the 35 million dollar referendum.
According to the census bureau, Albert Lea’s population is 17,758 people. In 2000, when the new high school opened the population was 18,356. From 2000 to 2007 Albert Lea is at a NEGATIVE population growth of -3.26 percent. We have lost 598 people.
Unfortunately for our community, the school district referendums are not an absolute given toward academic success or community growth and prosperity. Obviously, we need a better plan for local school funding so our schools will in fact be more attractive to others. How could we accomplish this?
ACADEMIC AWARENESS
The following percentages is from the Minnesota Department of Education website. This is currently where District 241 rates when looking at a combination of all testing measures.
ALHS math, not proficient, 77.06%
DISTRICT math, not proficient, 48.55%
STATE (MN), not proficient, 41.28%
ALHS reading, not proficient, 44.7%
DISTRICT math, not proficient, 33.96%
STATE (MN), not proficient, 31.63%
Not only do we need to raise our proficiency district wide, we believe it is essential to recognize and focus SPECIFICALLY on how academics at our high school will be improved.
The aesthetics of the high school are excellent—anyone contemplating moving here will be pleased with the new school building. Investigating in-depth high school academic achievement in reading & math certainly tells a different story.
The future of students, our community and our state depend upon graduates who are prepared for college. We don’t think passing a referendum to keep things the same will suffice.
The Referendum Campaign
The Administration/TEAM has mailed and distributed pro-referendum material. Students are being prompted, "have your parents vote for the referendum, or we may have limited classes next year,” etc. The District invites people to meet with TEAM in the SCHOOL FACILITIES (a tacit approval of TEAM, and an advantage not afforded to anti-referendum advocates). The district allows pro-referendum posters and signs in the schools. This hardly seems "fair and balanced," especially when the majority of campaign expenses is paid for by taxpayers.
These types of issues were submitted to the Minnesota Attorney General’s office. Their opinion specifically states, “the public funds entrusted to the board belong equally to the proponents and opponents of the proposition, and the use of the funds to pay not just for the presentation of facts only, but also to persuade the voters to side with one position, only, is NOT a proper use of public funds.”
As parents we teach our children to ask questions and to make comparative decisions. As children grow up, they have to realize that they can't have EVERYTHING they want, simply because they say so. Choices must be made. We do not want them to blindly follow others.
We all EXPECT accountability and responsibility. We believe that as a community we can come together for the sake of the kids and together we can all LEARN--Let's Educate and Accept Responsibility NOW!
Don’t accept a flawed bill. You have rights to more choices than Yes or NO. Vote it down, and let’s do it RIGHT!
Contact: T. Lynch
B. Bashans
Paid for by the members of LEARN :thumbsup:
LEARN…LET’S EDUCATE AND ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY NOW is a group of citizens who want accountability and choice in our spending in District 241.
Turn this bill down in order to create the best quality in District 241 education. Let’s revisit it next year so we can all be part of prioritizing the choices available for our children’s education with our tax dollars. We believe it is time to move forward in our efforts and become a community of educators, rather than depending on a few to make the choices that effect our children’s education.
LEARN does not think this referendum should be supported—especially a flawed bill that will reach far out into the future. We are not simply searching for “no” votes, we are concerned for the future of our students and community.
A Proposed Community Dialogue
As it is, a few people decide what is “best” and our choice is limited to voting Yes or No on their measure. We believe opening a community dialogue is necessary so we can discuss issues to determine the priorities, needs and wants of our schools.
A community dialogue would involve at least the following items:
Keep or cut an elementary school: By District 241’s Administration’s own proposals, keeping an additional school open is a million dollar a year proposition. We have to ask, ”What ELSE could we do with that money to achieve excellence?” Taxpayers may very well figure that having an additional school open IS the best use of a million dollars, and if that is the decision, so be it. Taxpayers SHOULD be able to have input.
Comparative choices: On the school board website—there are a NUMBER of cost-saving possibilities. For example, we can save a substantial amount of money by going to contract janitorial services instead of district employees—at no detriment to students. Would we rather have our own janitors, or have our children walk to school?
Priorities: Set the budget, and let the PUBLIC decide the priorities. No one wants to see any “extra” program cut. However, if it comes down to ensuring that adequate academic needs are met and improving—it should not be hard to make that choice. Academic excellence comes first.
Top down: People making budget cuts usually start at the bottom, and work up. It takes a LOT of janitorial wages to equal one administrator’s salary.
Guarantees: The Administration has given no guarantees that they will not cut programs if given the money and/or that achievement levels will improve. We would like to see the Administration make a solid commitment that states, ”If you give us this money, this is what we will do.
Options: We feel the Administration has over-reached by requesting 2 million dollars. We feel that there is a “middle ground” attainable by next year. By developing a dialogue, setting priorities, considering options, and getting guarantees. Perhaps the best thing would be to propose a “Give us One Million in cuts, we’ll give you One Million in levy taxes.”
That is a win for both sides—fiscal responsibility, money to sustain programs, community involvement, while meeting our obligations to student academic progression.
No Child Left Behind
Our district has failed the Annual Yearly Progress goal in the No Child Left Behind testing for three years in the core subjects of Reading and Math. There appears to be no stated goals of what the district remedies will be.
Consequences for not making AYP by sanctions…
Year 1-Offer school choice
Year 2-Provide supplemental services
Year 3-Needs Improvement
Year 4-Corrective action
Year 5-Restructuring or take over
FACT: NCLB is not going to disappear. Each year the target benchmark increases on accountability for academic success. 100% proficiency is expected for our district & schools by 2016.
FACT: There was not an increase in the target benchmark for the past two years, however District 241 added another school in not making AYP in the second year.
FACT: Albert Lea High School has failed AYP two years in a row.
FACT: District 241 is currently sanctioned as a district in “needs improvement” status.
We need to push ahead for academic success and away from consequences.
Our Community
District 241, TEAM, The Chamber, ALEDA, and the Albert Lea Tribune have consistently stated that passing referendums makes good schools and increases community growth. We have heard this reason many times and in 1997 we voted for the 35 million dollar referendum.
According to the census bureau, Albert Lea’s population is 17,758 people. In 2000, when the new high school opened the population was 18,356. From 2000 to 2007 Albert Lea is at a NEGATIVE population growth of -3.26 percent. We have lost 598 people.
Unfortunately for our community, the school district referendums are not an absolute given toward academic success or community growth and prosperity. Obviously, we need a better plan for local school funding so our schools will in fact be more attractive to others. How could we accomplish this?
ACADEMIC AWARENESS
The following percentages is from the Minnesota Department of Education website. This is currently where District 241 rates when looking at a combination of all testing measures.
ALHS math, not proficient, 77.06%
DISTRICT math, not proficient, 48.55%
STATE (MN), not proficient, 41.28%
ALHS reading, not proficient, 44.7%
DISTRICT math, not proficient, 33.96%
STATE (MN), not proficient, 31.63%
Not only do we need to raise our proficiency district wide, we believe it is essential to recognize and focus SPECIFICALLY on how academics at our high school will be improved.
The aesthetics of the high school are excellent—anyone contemplating moving here will be pleased with the new school building. Investigating in-depth high school academic achievement in reading & math certainly tells a different story.
The future of students, our community and our state depend upon graduates who are prepared for college. We don’t think passing a referendum to keep things the same will suffice.
The Referendum Campaign
The Administration/TEAM has mailed and distributed pro-referendum material. Students are being prompted, "have your parents vote for the referendum, or we may have limited classes next year,” etc. The District invites people to meet with TEAM in the SCHOOL FACILITIES (a tacit approval of TEAM, and an advantage not afforded to anti-referendum advocates). The district allows pro-referendum posters and signs in the schools. This hardly seems "fair and balanced," especially when the majority of campaign expenses is paid for by taxpayers.
These types of issues were submitted to the Minnesota Attorney General’s office. Their opinion specifically states, “the public funds entrusted to the board belong equally to the proponents and opponents of the proposition, and the use of the funds to pay not just for the presentation of facts only, but also to persuade the voters to side with one position, only, is NOT a proper use of public funds.”
As parents we teach our children to ask questions and to make comparative decisions. As children grow up, they have to realize that they can't have EVERYTHING they want, simply because they say so. Choices must be made. We do not want them to blindly follow others.
We all EXPECT accountability and responsibility. We believe that as a community we can come together for the sake of the kids and together we can all LEARN--Let's Educate and Accept Responsibility NOW!
Don’t accept a flawed bill. You have rights to more choices than Yes or NO. Vote it down, and let’s do it RIGHT!
Contact: T. Lynch
B. Bashans
Paid for by the members of LEARN :thumbsup:
how much better did any community group (TEAM OR LEARN) make our schools in this past year after a failed referendum? I am certain that we will see this same effort. I simply don't buy the "vote it down and the fix it" approach.
One question... How will less funding for our schools help raise test scores, disadvantaged kids, or the school district do it's job better.
I get that some people on this thread and in the community are not thrilled about education in dist 241. Reducing budgets for teaching supplies, or staff will not help raise test scores or help our disadvantaged kids.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 28 2007,7:14 pm
Wow. Learn wants to out source the janitors. I wonder if the union busting idea will go very far. I am surprised learn thinks the janitors are over paid.
Posted by Stand44 on Oct. 28 2007,7:19 pm
(january @ Oct. 28 2007,3:22 pm)
QUOTE
Stand 44:
I read an interesting story and I shorten, change, paraphrase and quote due to length
In summary the story is about a poor Hispanic student who was not doing well academically.
He was failing everything.
A meeting was set up to find out why. (the meeting was set up not by his mother but by friends of his mother as the mother worked for these friends caring for their child)
The meeting was led by a guidance counselor and several of the students' teachers attended. .
The counselor proceeded to spend most of the time ciriticizing and challenging the student about his academic apathy.
The meeting quickly moved into dueling accusations about the student and his classroom habits.
The students science teacher joined the chorus "This student is the problem" suggesting that there were no other explanations for his poor prerformance.
Stating , he does not do his homework. He does not pay attention in class. He doesn't make an effort.
Then his English teacher joined the chorus of criticism. Her primary interest was in absolving herself saying "I don't fail students, they fail themselves".
No one explicitly said "The student can't learn. Their complaint was that he won't learn and the underlying message was we have done all we can and its' his fault.
Or substitute:
His communities fault
Or his single mothers fault
Or his socio-economic station in life' fault
Or his minority status station in life' fault
Or the environment he lives in fault
"The biggest barrier to academic success is not the baggage kids carry into the classroom but the core beliefs adults carry in."
Mike Feinberg co-founder of KIPP said it best
"We have two options. We can shrug our shoulders and sit there and say 'What can we do about it?'. It is because of families. It is because of the community. It is because of their former schools or teachers, or because of society. Or we can say you know what it might be someone elses problem, but now it is ours and we need to do something about it."
The shocking post where you relayed from your own personal experience that students at ALHS took the MCA II make-up tests signed their name and handed them in blank and then your even more shocking admission that you really couldn't blame them because the tests didn't count anyway was a wake-up call for me.
I repeat, we have far deeper problems than I ever imagined.
I called my sister who has small children. I told her what ever you do....do not send those kids to District 241.
I read an interesting story and I shorten, change, paraphrase and quote due to length
In summary the story is about a poor Hispanic student who was not doing well academically.
He was failing everything.
A meeting was set up to find out why. (the meeting was set up not by his mother but by friends of his mother as the mother worked for these friends caring for their child)
The meeting was led by a guidance counselor and several of the students' teachers attended. .
The counselor proceeded to spend most of the time ciriticizing and challenging the student about his academic apathy.
The meeting quickly moved into dueling accusations about the student and his classroom habits.
The students science teacher joined the chorus "This student is the problem" suggesting that there were no other explanations for his poor prerformance.
Stating , he does not do his homework. He does not pay attention in class. He doesn't make an effort.
Then his English teacher joined the chorus of criticism. Her primary interest was in absolving herself saying "I don't fail students, they fail themselves".
No one explicitly said "The student can't learn. Their complaint was that he won't learn and the underlying message was we have done all we can and its' his fault.
Or substitute:
His communities fault
Or his single mothers fault
Or his socio-economic station in life' fault
Or his minority status station in life' fault
Or the environment he lives in fault
"The biggest barrier to academic success is not the baggage kids carry into the classroom but the core beliefs adults carry in."
Mike Feinberg co-founder of KIPP said it best
"We have two options. We can shrug our shoulders and sit there and say 'What can we do about it?'. It is because of families. It is because of the community. It is because of their former schools or teachers, or because of society. Or we can say you know what it might be someone elses problem, but now it is ours and we need to do something about it."
The shocking post where you relayed from your own personal experience that students at ALHS took the MCA II make-up tests signed their name and handed them in blank and then your even more shocking admission that you really couldn't blame them because the tests didn't count anyway was a wake-up call for me.
I repeat, we have far deeper problems than I ever imagined.
I called my sister who has small children. I told her what ever you do....do not send those kids to District 241.
January,
Feel free to keep harping on my views on tests that should be as irrelevant to our perception of our schools as they are to our 11th graders that don't have to pass them. If you find tests that students don't try on or care about to be important, I cannot help it. If you want to fault a school that has students that succeed greatly in math classes, from algebra to calculus because they don't pass a test the kids rightly see as irrelevant, that is up to you. I trust the teachers to teach them math. I trust that they do this well for the vast majority of students. I trust that like so many before them, that the students that don't get it in high school will eventually get it. I am not even the least bit concerned. I am interested in helping kids in the classroom, helping their teachers have the tools they need to better educate my children, and Yes I am interested in standardized test scores, but not until they matter to the students.
I am done with this thread on 11th grade standardized test. Let's address this again when this years 10th graders have to pass them to graduate. I am certain that when 60% plus pass at that time, that you will be the first top say "Wow!!! or school has really improved from the 22% a couple years ago. We should pass a referendum for this spectacular school".
Posted by january on Oct. 28 2007,7:51 pm
Stand 44:Funny thing about the Trig/Calculus, Chemistry, Advanced Algebra, Physics, and college courses you talk about that are offered at ALHS;
USC.......Alden/Conger.......Glenville/Emmons all have students that "succeed greatly" in these courses as well.
They have graduates that test out of classes or take post secondary options so these students also have completed their freshman and sophomore years in college. They also have students that take college courses on line.
BUT they manage to make Adequate Yearly Progress so my guess is..... the students at the above schools do take their tests seriously.
This conversation is over on my end as well.
I simply could not trump the LEARN tri-fold information that was posted above your post.
Like it, hate it, snub it, ignore it, rationalize it, minimalize it....NCLB......MCAII.......AYP is not going away.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 28 2007,8:29 pm
If I read the state website right. Not all of the high school did not fail. It looks like special ed and hispanic speakers. AC does not have to test them since they don't have enough in the group.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 28 2007,8:34 pm
Glenville does not test hispanics and made the special ed target with alt method?
Posted by bianca on Oct. 28 2007,8:40 pm
wildjim- you may need to read it again. There are parts of this explained in the website under subgoups I believe.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 28 2007,8:47 pm
Alhs math all passed. Hispanic and special ed not met.Seems clear.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 28 2007,8:50 pm
I stand corrected math glenville hig all met but special did not.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 28 2007,8:58 pm
And check out Austin. They did not have to report hispanic? And Special ed failed. Hmmm
Posted by busybee on Oct. 29 2007,1:12 am
alhs tested 275 students. So, I'm supposed to be "okay" with 64 students making an effort & 211 not giving a rip? That's the best we can do? It hardly makes sense to say that when a little over half of these same 211 students were passing in grade school & middle school. QUOTE
Alhs math all passed. Hispanic and special ed not met.
Seems clear.
Seems clear.
Since when could that make sense? 1% of alhs students are ell and 14% are special ed. I suppose you could include the 28% free & reduced lunchers as the ones who bring down the scores too. So, what's left is 32% of the 275 students not caring so the 23% could pass!
How in the world do the other schools in the district get over 1/2 of their students to pass? Luck? I guess some just expect others to believe that once students get to high school, they "flip" the switch from on to off. Couldn't have anything to do with the philosophy of high school education...the one that sends the message "this is the time for independence, if students don't "catch on" there's something wrong with them, their parents, their economic status etc... The students who struggle simply don't care and they don't try, so there's no point in giving in to that crap. Students are against us."
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 29 2007,8:43 am
BusybeeSlow down. The seems clear was a reference to Bianca saying I was not reading the website right. I am not saying we can not do better. But comparing ALHS with schools that don't have the numbers to test in the same areas seems wrong. As does bashing the district and staff and then trying to starve them of needed resouces.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 29 2007,2:04 pm
QUOTE
Editorial: Online poll shows levy support
Have you visited the Quick Vote at AlbertLeaTribune.com?
As of this morning, 313 had voted and the supporters of the school levy that appears on the Nov. 6 ballot in Albert Lea seem to be winning.
Of the votes, 76.4 percent stood in favor of option C. 18.5 percent supported option A, and only 5.1 percent liked option B. < Poll >
Have you visited the Quick Vote at AlbertLeaTribune.com?
As of this morning, 313 had voted and the supporters of the school levy that appears on the Nov. 6 ballot in Albert Lea seem to be winning.
Of the votes, 76.4 percent stood in favor of option C. 18.5 percent supported option A, and only 5.1 percent liked option B. < Poll >
Posted by katlade on Oct. 29 2007,4:01 pm
Has anyone displaying a LEARN sign in their yard received any backlash from neighbors and/or friends? I sure hope we all don't live in a community that doesn't respect the views of others and their right to voice them in any way they please. Sure is not a good lesson for any of our children if this fundamental right is not respected.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 29 2007,4:25 pm
I certainly hope that isn't the case either, katlade. I haven't heard of any of that but I know that people have told me that they were leary of putting a sign up because of that. Those are usually the ones that have asked for pamphlets to distribute rather than posting a sign which is alright too. Any type of "NO" support is appreciated even if it is just simply talking to a friend or neighbor.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 29 2007,4:41 pm
QUOTE
wildjim-
[QUOTE]As does bashing the district and staff and then trying to starve them of needed resouces.
[QUOTE]As does bashing the district and staff and then trying to starve them of needed resouces.
"bashing"? I think you might have that confused with TEAM and the Tribune and yourself(that is if you aren't already a TEAM player)
So far it's the ESL, Free/reduced lunches, and special ed that are bringing the AYP reports down, that's the only thing they've come up with besides stand44 saying the report doesn't matter (which was a new one). The tribune called the baby booomers selfish, and TEAM player Tom Ehrhardt saying that it is our "social" responsiblity and our "tax" responsibility to vote yes after saying it was our freedom to choose how to vote
QUOTE
trying to starve them of needed resouces.
That's exactly what I am doing, starving the school district
Where do you come up with these interesting verbs?maddog-
Thanks for posting the poll when I just voted at 3:29 there were 352 votes and the no was already up to 24%.
Anyone that wants to vote..... you have to click on Albertleatribune.com and then it's on the bottom left hand sign. I couldn't get to the poll part by just clicking on your link, maddog.
Do you think when the no votes go way up on their poll that the editor will write that the no votes are in the lead? By the forums "unofficial" poll the no's are in the lead, I can't believe they didn't write about that in the paper
I'll be very surprised if this referendum passes this year, people just can't afford to vote yes on "coulds".
VOTE NO NOVEMBER 6th
Tell the district that We want MORE for our students, our community, and our future. Don't just settle. Get out and vote.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 29 2007,4:53 pm
"bashing"? I think you might have that confused with TEAM and the Tribune and yourself(that is if you aren't already a TEAM player)No, I think you may be confused on who is the basher
Tonya responses-Unfortunately this is becoming more and more true. I was told yesterday that this fellow had put his NO sign in the back of his truck and as soon as he did it a woman drove past and "flipped him off". Maybe this is why voting has to be done behind a curtain, so to speak.
Tonya gots some splaining to do!
All quotes from Tonya Lynch-leader of LEARN since the start of this string:
*Until the school can come up with teachers that actually want to teach, and the progress is seen and not just talked about I will be voting NO.
*My opinion: Behrends and Mathiason both need to go on the county board anyone would be better than those two.
*The same with the city council, get rid of Simonson's "yes" men. IMO, Rasmussen, Olson and Marin aren't doing anybody any favors. Brooks goes back and forth but he listens to his constituents. The problem he has is that he wants everyone to get their way and not everyone can.
* And the Mayor......I still have yet to figure THAT one out. He stunk as a city council member so how did he get to be Mayor?
*Whoopy ding-dong TEAM golf clapped, now they can start writing their tax write-offs with all that money wasted on trying to manipulate people and students to vote a certain way.
*With YOUR support, we hope to continue to bleed you for every last dollar you have,With YOUR money to help brainwash the public
*I'm so tired of hearing about how overburdened these teachers are with more students. They CHOSE this occupation, nobody says it is going to be easy, but it was/is a choice that they made and if they don't love to teach and feel rewarded to see the success in their students that they were part of then those are the ones that should not be teaching our students. It shouldn't just be about the students report card it should also be about the teachers report card, if they can't teach or do the job up to state standards then move on.
*People such as yourself with your stone-age thinking is what reflects poorly on this community and definitely one more reason I will continue to vote NO.
*Simple Math people. Oh, that's right we're not "proficient in Math"
--------------
* I wonder if the school would let us meet at the Brookside Education Center in say.... room 132?
*I can't imagine that TEAM will miss that opportunity to prey on the vulnerable adults there with their "let's do it for the kids and the community" mantra.
*Ken Peterson aka peter, had the guts to come on here and post but when called out on the NCLB testing we haven't heard anything back from him. That in itself, speaks volumes to me.
*(TEAM= Teachers and Employees who Abhor money Management.)
*The fact of the matter is TEAM is like a group of highschool groupies getting together for their little "let's get together, k?" meetings to sell a very big bag of M&M's just to see if they can top last years sales.
*This isn't about finding solutions it's about a bunch of people thinking they are the "popular pack" and because of who they are or what they do they're going to try to get a yes vote whether the educational institute is held responsible or not. It's all about "saving face" after not being able to get any return for all of THEIR sacrifice for 5 years now.
*Oh Good Grief....yet more puppets on a string. Come on Dan, we know you read the forum and all you can chirp is the same old song and dance. IT HAS NOT BROUGHT JOBS YET....hello?
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 29 2007,5:19 pm
If I have bashed anyone then I am sorry because we can all see the world from a different view. Please don't read something in to my posts that is not there. I never said the AYP is not important. I don't feel like I understand them enough. But to claim that schools x y and z passed when either they did not or did not have enough kids to require seperate testing is at best misleading. Sorry if you don't like the word starve but that is what I see
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 29 2007,6:22 pm
(bianca @ Oct. 29 2007,4:41 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
wildjim-
[QUOTE]As does bashing the district and staff and then trying to starve them of needed resouces.
[QUOTE]As does bashing the district and staff and then trying to starve them of needed resouces.
"bashing"? I think you might have that confused with TEAM and the Tribune and yourself(that is if you aren't already a TEAM player)
So far it's the ESL, Free/reduced lunches, and special ed that are bringing the AYP reports down, that's the only thing they've come up with besides stand44 saying the report doesn't matter (which was a new one). The tribune called the baby booomers selfish, and TEAM player Tom Ehrhardt saying that it is our "social" responsiblity and our "tax" responsibility to vote yes after saying it was our freedom to choose how to vote
QUOTE
trying to starve them of needed resouces.
That's exactly what I am doing, starving the school district
Where do you come up with these interesting verbs?maddog-
Thanks for posting the poll when I just voted at 3:29 there were 352 votes and the no was already up to 24%.
Anyone that wants to vote..... you have to click on Albertleatribune.com and then it's on the bottom left hand sign. I couldn't get to the poll part by just clicking on your link, maddog.
Do you think when the no votes go way up on their poll that the editor will write that the no votes are in the lead? By the forums "unofficial" poll the no's are in the lead, I can't believe they didn't write about that in the paper
I'll be very surprised if this referendum passes this year, people just can't afford to vote yes on "coulds".
VOTE NO NOVEMBER 6th
Tell the district that We want MORE for our students, our community, and our future. Don't just settle. Get out and vote.QUOTE
I couldn't get to the poll part by just clicking on your link, maddog.
Sorry, the link was to the editorial the paper wrote. QUOTE
Do you think when the no votes go way up on their poll that the editor will write that the no votes are in the lead? By the forums "unofficial" poll the no's are in the lead, I can't believe they didn't write about that in the paper
If they had printed the guest article I wrote and sent to them ten days ago, I mentioned the Forum poll. Whatever your vote will be, remember to locate your polling place. November 6th is just a week away.
Posted by hymiebravo on Oct. 29 2007,6:52 pm
I have a suggestion for all the educators in AL that are trying to get more money...Figure out how to get that Watershed tax reconfigured in such a way that it takes that money and uses it for other things like education.
I mean thats what was posted here... that thats the way everywhere else does it. Wasn't it ?
Can that be done or not ?
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 29 2007,7:09 pm
QUOTE
If they had printed the guest article I wrote and sent to them ten days ago, I mentioned the Forum poll.
The Tribune asks for an article, then sets an unrealistic deadline--then refuses to print it even a week later. I guess they were too busy choosing which "Yes--Yes" letters to print. I defended them for a while--I thought there was hope. These are the same people that publish the EXCELLENT Southern Minnesota magazine--a quality product.
But I guess it's easier to write about local towns, wine, and your advertisers than it is to take an editorial stand for fairness. I suggest they stick to writing about non-controversial items. If you want NEWS and OPINION--get it elsewhere.
Posted by medic on Oct. 29 2007,7:24 pm
Kinda sounds like FEMA!
Posted by january on Oct. 29 2007,8:41 pm
I read this article in the Star Tribune yesterday. It is long but well worth the read. LEARN you are not alone.Next month, voters across the state will be asked to pay more taxes for their local schools. The money is proposed to pay for a variety of things, from everyday operating expenses to buildings to improved technology.
These are important votes for all Minnesota employers and their employees. Companies of all sizes and types need the best individuals to compete in a global market. Parents want to ensure that their children can compete for jobs. The Minnesota Chamber of Commerce, as the states largest business advocacy organization, has a keen interest that schools have the resourses necessary to meet our workforce needs.
That's why we encourage voters to ask the logical question BEFORE casting ballots: What are the districts goals for the additional dollars in terms of measureable results in student achievement?
Newspaper stories across the state have carried the foreboding message to "Vote Yes" or our childrens education will suffer. And they proceed to detail the ramifications of a "No " vote such as larger classes, outdated curricula and texts, and fewer teachers and support staff.
All these elements may be important to teaching our children. But, frankly, we're not sure for two reasons. First, most business people are not education experts. Secondly, today's world economy and diverse school poplulation say that the business community and voters should not prescribe any one learning approach: lower class sizes for example for any school.
We should leave the strategies to our teachers, encouraging them and giving them the flexibility to do what works. School leaders should make the cases for their referendums in terms of measureable student results. Districts will benefit most and make the strongest cases for passage if they focus their campaigns on clear, achievement goals. Most districts unfortunately are silent on this.
The Crookston School District provides a shining exception in its "Annual Report on Curriculum, Instruction, and Student Achievement." As noted in the Crookston Daily Times, the report contains 2007-2008 goals for student achievement that are "unprecidented in their specificity."
For example, the district amis to narrow the achievement gap in reading by 3% on next springs tests for Hispanics and students eligible for free and reduced lunches. The district identified the strategies to reach all its goals and the report is posted on its website.
And if goals are not met? "Then we will have to take another look at what we are doing." the Crookston Times quoted Ione Swenson, the districts curriculum assessment and staff development director "It's always a work in progress"
Crookston is not seeking a referendum But you can bet its chances for passage would be greatly enhanced by its efforts to tell the entire communitywhere the district is headed on achievement.
A discussion of school funding is incomplete without acknowledging that declinging enrollment is at the root of many districts troubles. Schools are largely funded on head count and its admittedly a tricky equation. A drop of say 60 students and the accompanying reduced state aid cannot be recouped by simply eliminating two kindergarden sections. The drops in student numbers are likely scattered throughout all grades with rarely a large enough block to eliminate an entire classroom section.
At the same time, with our graying population, declining enrollments are a fact of life. It is neither practical nor fiscally sustainable to pay schools more money for education with fewer students. And so, we're back to setting local goals for student achievement. By focusing on results, districts have the flexibility to deal with their enrollment and diversity issues. We should not presume that a solution that works in one district will succeed n another.
School districts should make a pact with their communities. Share with us what achievement results the new local money will buy and how progress will be measured and reported. Set goals for educational achievement within each community, and we'll be the first in line to vote yes.
This article was written by William Blazar and he is a senior vice president of public affairs and business development at the Minnesota Chamber of Commerce.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 29 2007,9:55 pm
I would not put too much stock in either on line poll. Not sure of all the details, but had dinner out tonight and ran in to a guy that was none to happy about Learn plastering cars at church yesterday so now he voting yes for sure.
Posted by january on Oct. 29 2007,9:59 pm
I truly believe that there are leaders that care. I also believe that Superintendent Prescott, I have talked to him once, is a kind, caring person.
I remember calling him with a concern and he gave me plenty of time to talk, listened intently and told me how he would handle the situation. He was true to his word. I could tell he is a man of integrity.
It is kinda like Donald Trump says. "It is nothing personal, it's business"
Same here.
As a person I just want the best thing for the kids, school, community. As a very informed voter, we simply cannot ignore NCLB-MCA II and AYP. We have to address our short comings. We have to.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 29 2007,10:24 pm
JanuaryI am with you.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 30 2007,2:00 am
QUOTE
Slow down. The seems clear was a reference to Bianca saying I was not reading the website right. I am not saying we can not do better. But comparing ALHS with schools that don't have the numbers to test in the same areas seems wrong
I don't get into comparing to other schools much either. We'll never have an exact match. It is interesting when you run across schools with less per pupil funding, but higher scores, though...how do they do it?
Comparing our district against itself is productive as is comparing to the state average of all high schools.
I have posted on here more than once the differences in the math scores from elementary to middle to high school.
For some reason we lose between 25-40% of our passing students in high school math compared to our other schools. I challenge anyone to come up with better answers than the "usual" to explain why this would occur.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 30 2007,2:46 am
QUOTE
No, I think you may be confused on who is the basher
Is this about you and bianca?
I specifically take issue with you assuming that bianca is the voice/leader of LEARN. I get the impression that anyone who chooses to voice their opinion with or without choosing to affiliate themselves to LEARN has that right.
I merely see what you are doing is attempting to discredit LEARN because you don't like one person who has chosen to speak out for the group, students, community and referendum choices. That's not fair to any other members of LEARN.
Please don't come back with an attitude that you are justified in what you are doing because of what you don't like about her. If you honestly care about the students of our district, then you wouldn't want to be concentrating on bianca, you'd be explaining why you would like to see it pass. Like I said, this isn't about you.
Lastly, if any of you could make an honest effort to get past your belief that anyone/group who opposes the referendum is against the admin. TEAM, students and community you would actually see that LEARN is NOT proposing NEVER giving in to referendum.
LEARN wants to see an improved referendum. What exactly is so wrong with that?
I have posted on here many times that I would be interested in a referendum that could reflect both the district cutting back on something the district could save money on and then passing the 2 million referendum and putting whatever they cut towards academic improvement.
I have quickly learned that many who are pro-referendum honestly believe there isn't one single thing that could be reduced or cut within our district in order to make even a 100,000 dollars more available to increase our district's PUBLIC academic scores.
The way I see it, our students are worth an amount of local funding monies, no matter how small, to increase academic support. It frightens me when I hear others assuming that the money budgeted for that is always enough to meet the academic needs and achievement of our students. Further, the district is the victim theory doesn't do a darn thing to help our students. It's a cop out.
You want to see improvement in quality for the future...you plan for it. Improving on academics as a community with the district is our best option. We have nothing different from any other community or schools...but we should if we honestly are looking at contributing to the future of both.
Posted by Common Citizen on Oct. 30 2007,9:28 am
(wildjim @ Oct. 29 2007,9:55 pm)
QUOTE
ran in to a guy that was none to happy about Learn plastering cars at church yesterday so now he voting yes for sure.
Basing your decision on having a flyer stuck to your windshield?
That's the lamest thing I've ever heard. Thank God our childrens' futures are in the hands of such deep thinkers on this subject.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 30 2007,10:14 am
(january @ Oct. 29 2007,9:59 pm)
QUOTE
I truly believe that there are leaders that care.
I also believe that Superintendent Prescott, I have talked to him once, is a kind, caring person.
I remember calling him with a concern and he gave me plenty of time to talk, listened intently and told me how he would handle the situation. He was true to his word. I could tell he is a man of integrity.
It is kinda like Donald Trump says. "It is nothing personal, it's business"
Same here.
As a person I just want the best thing for the kids, school, community. As a very informed voter, we simply cannot ignore NCLB-MCA II and AYP. We have to address our short comings. We have to.
I also believe that Superintendent Prescott, I have talked to him once, is a kind, caring person.
I remember calling him with a concern and he gave me plenty of time to talk, listened intently and told me how he would handle the situation. He was true to his word. I could tell he is a man of integrity.
It is kinda like Donald Trump says. "It is nothing personal, it's business"
Same here.
As a person I just want the best thing for the kids, school, community. As a very informed voter, we simply cannot ignore NCLB-MCA II and AYP. We have to address our short comings. We have to.
Some people have exactly the opposite experiences with Dr. Prescott. That is why we all have to vote what we think is best. And our vote is private if we choose and should be respected by all for or against.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 30 2007,2:07 pm
Letter to the editor--tomorrow is the last day to get them in. The Tribune may not print them all--so here's mine where EVERYBODY can see it.LEARN=Let's Educate and Accept Responsibility Now.
Contrary to your article of Oct. 28, there ARE substantial differences between TEAM and LEARN.
TEAM wants to TAKE your money--without telling you what they will use it for.
LEARN isn't proposing to take any money--just to have assurances that it will be well spent--to tell us IN ADVANCE where the money is going, not where it was spent. Tell us what programs will stay, and which will be cut if you receive more money. Don't give us more generalities. Be specific.
TEAM and the Administration didn't include the fact that we are ONE YEAR AWAY from required major changes in their "happy fluff" piece mailed out at taxpayer expense. LEARN DID tell you that.
TEAM and the Administration tells us that we need the money to "keep what we have." LEARN says "what we have isn't good enough, we want BETTER." The Administration SHOULD be expected to do better on nearly every educational yardstick.
LEARN is on record as supporting KEEPING an extra elementary school, IF that is the will of the community--but we WOULD like the opportunity to vote on a million dollar proposal. TEAM doesn't give you those chances--all you can do is vote Yes or NO on what THEY propose. We deserve more choices than that.
LEARN is not anti-referendum--in fact, we wish there was a referendum every year, in order to keep alive a dialogue on the education process. Voting on on a 7-year plan is too far out into the future--and nobody is accountable on a plan that long. Having a referendum every year would hold people accountable for what they promised to do with the money. We don't have that accountability now.
If you are willing to simply accept the decisions of others, vote Yes.
If you believe that community INPUT is vital to our schools, VOTE NO, and tell them to come back with a better proposal.
Finally--if you want accountability, you have to DO something about it--you have to VOTE. The pro-referendum people will be out in force--this will pass UNLESS you vote NO and ask them to come back with something better.
Like a bad meal, you DON'T have to eat what they put in front of you!
Posted by january on Oct. 30 2007,2:08 pm
Busybee:Just curious.
Remember they said the current referendum is going to run out in June. Right?
TEAM and the pro-referendum folks want us to vote for this thing and say YES on November 6th, 2007, Right?
LEARN proposes that we vote this bad bill down on November 6th 2007 so that we can have more time to come up with a good bill. Right?
Well according to my calculations, IF the referendum bill is voted down November 6, 2007 and the current referendum runs out in June, technically, community discussion and all parties can come together for 8 months to work out a good referendum bill.
There can be special times for referendums such as in August. Right?
So I can't figure out the problem here.
It would be a win win for us to vote this bad bill down now and then take the time to all get together and come up with a good workable plan. I think.
Just wondering what other folks thought. ?
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 30 2007,2:09 pm
I saw this sign 2 miles south on Co.Rd. 18 (South Broadway)
Posted by january on Oct. 30 2007,2:12 pm
Oh ya, the current money would be there through June of 2008 so if we had the special referendum in August 2008, that is just 2 months without the extra 2 million bucks and during those months the kids are not even in school anyway.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 30 2007,2:51 pm
I drove by a Diamond Jo billboard today--it said that every high school graduate of Worth County received nearly $5,000 in scholarship money. That's laudable.Then I started thinking--"If spending money on SCHOOLS is as important as Administration/TEAM says, we don't stand a chance!
If schools are THAT important--all those mythical doctors that are avoiding coming here because of our failing schools would go 15 miles south to live.
Or maybe TEAM is using the failed "if we don't build it, they won't come" scare tactic again. Hey, it fooled the people ONCE, why not again?
Which is it, TEAM? Do we have good schools (after all, you want to keep the status quo) or do we have failed schools, (the reason that all of these doctors are not locating here). Which one is it--you can't have it BOTH ways.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 30 2007,4:12 pm
all those mythical doctors Do mythical doctors only work on republicans that believe in mythical weapons of mass destruction?
Posted by january on Oct. 30 2007,4:39 pm
What theI would appreciate it if you would not digress, degrade and cheapen this discussion. I understand that there is Freedom of Speech and of the Press but most of us are interested in facts, data, current events surrounding the referendum issue and that majority do not attempt to smear others or make snide stupid comments.
The trifold phamplets that LEARN has been distributing to District 241 voters is stellar.
Their articles in the paper were really good as was their interview on TV
Issue after issue is really on point.
I may not always agree with Bianca but she does investigate, research, dig up, and she is certainly not afraid to go up against anyone or anything.
She does have the courage of her convictions.
Instead of droning on and on with list of quotes, in child-like way to discredit a person, why don't you tell us in detail exactly what TEAM is going to do about the failing test scores and the fact that District 241 is in improvement status as we speak?
By the way I am not a member of either TEAM or LEARN. I have no financial, employment, or any other vested interest in passing this referendum. I simply am a person that wants the best for these kids.
Posted by Ginkgo on Oct. 30 2007,5:09 pm
What can't you understand about attracting business to Albert Lea. No one has said that the New High School and quality education will bring new business, only that it is one of the starting point that is important to business and their employees when excepting a job in a community. When the head of Chamber of Commerce, Director of the Community Development corporation, The Director of the Convention and Visitor Bureau and the Administrator of the Albert Lea Medical Center all say that it is important, and they are the ones talking to prospective businesses and employees then you will not even listen to facts.I asked Dr Prescot (the superintendent) about the use of the schools for TEAMS, and he said that any group can use the schools. There are different classifications of use (I did not ask about fees), but any organization that wants to help the school or promote education can use the school rooms free.
If you believe the schools are failing because they did not meet every category of NCLB AYP (Annual Yearly Progress) then you do not understand what AYP means. It is a fact - and you can check it out on the Minnesota Education Web site - that the Albert Lea District #241 has passed the "All Students" (that is the group that includes all students together) has passed the AYP every year since testing started in 2003.
What you don't seem to understand (or care about understanding) is what the AYP means. The state never uses the word "Failing or Failure" because that is not what it is or means. "Needs Improvement" is more closely the terms to use, and if you study carefully the results of the test, you would see that it is mostly the group identified as "Hispanic" and "Special Needs" that have not meet their benchmark for that year. Each year to the year 2013-2014 the benchmark increases, meaning a larger percentage of students need to pass the test to stay on target to reach the ultimate goal of 100% of kids passing the test. As we get closer to that year you will see that most schools will not meet the AYP goal because not all students are capable of passing. Working towards the goal is great, helping each kid reach their own potential is great, but not everyone has the native ability to pass. That does not mean that the school is not doing a good job, or that the kid is a failure, or will not succeed in school, career or life. Not everyone is capable of passing Calculus or Organic Chemisty, or can be a Doctor, or Lawyer, or whatever.
The other area of complaint is the Administration being to top heavy. Compared to other districts of our size we spend less on Administration. Smaller schools would naturaly spend more because of the number of students, and larger schools would spend less because of a larger base. Comparing to business - the national average of supervisor to worker is 1 to 9. One supervisor to every 9 workers. The national average for schools is 1 to 25. Albert Lea is 1 to 50. So they are doing better. Could more be cut . . . part of the possible cuts are in the administration area (as we have done likewise in several past year budgets). Will this hurt the students . . . no one knows for sure, but someone will have to pick up the jobs they will not be doing. The NCLB alone has created more work for the Administration. Having to beg for more funding also takes their time and effort. As far as pay goes, what could a person with a PHd and 30 years of experience make in business. Starting MBA right out of college are being paid $55,000 plus benefits at Target. Starting teachers with masters are starting far less than that.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 30 2007,5:11 pm
Whathe--I was talking about all of the doctors that TEAM members keep telling us won't move to town because of the lack of good schools. I was going to use apocryphal, but decided that a more common word like mythical would make a good substitute. Perhaps mythical was not the correct word. Which of these would you rather use? QUOTE
allegorical, chimerical, created, fabled, fabricated, fabulous, fairy-tale, false, fanciful, fantasy, fictitious, fictive, folkloric, imaginary, invented, legendary, made-up, mythic, mythological, nonexistent, pretended, storied, supposititious, traditional, unreal, untrue, visionary, whimsical
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2007 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: apocryphal
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: questionable
Synonyms: counterfeit, doubtful, dubious, equivocal, fake, false, fictitious, inaccurate, mythical, spurious, unauthenticated, ungenuine, unsubstantiated, untrue, unverified, wrong
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2007 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: apocryphal
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: questionable
Synonyms: counterfeit, doubtful, dubious, equivocal, fake, false, fictitious, inaccurate, mythical, spurious, unauthenticated, ungenuine, unsubstantiated, untrue, unverified, wrong
We keep hearing that these doctors won't move to town because of the bad schools--but we don't hear abouot doctors that are LEAVING because of bad schools. C'mon, TEAM. You can't have it BOTH ways.
Then TEAM tells us that they want $2 million dollars to keep things as they are. If schools are so bad that "doctors" won't move to town, who would want to keep things as they are?
If we already HAVE good schools, and TEAM wants to keep things as they are, why aren't doctors moving here?
Once again, TEAM is telling two different stories.
Or maybe, like the story of "The dog that didn't bark"--"The Doctors that won't move" is just that--a story.
Posted by Whiskero on Oct. 30 2007,5:14 pm
Ginkgo, that is precisely all this town has heard through the last years--if we build a new school, the businesses will come; if we build a new library, the businesses will come; if we build a new gov. center the businesses will come--if we put in this expensive lighting, it will light the corridor for new businesses to come.Don't even try to tell us that you have not heard these words, over and over again, thru the years!
Posted by medic on Oct. 30 2007,5:16 pm
(wildjim @ Oct. 29 2007,9:55 pm)
QUOTE
I would not put too much stock in either on line poll.
Not sure of all the details, but had dinner out tonight and ran in to a guy that was none to happy about Learn plastering cars at church yesterday so now he voting yes for sure.
Not sure of all the details, but had dinner out tonight and ran in to a guy that was none to happy about Learn plastering cars at church yesterday so now he voting yes for sure.
Wildjim, I hope your not a teacher with the in to thing! About the LEARN sign's I seen one today that was ripped down from a yard.
Posted by MADDOG on Oct. 30 2007,5:30 pm
(medic @ Oct. 30 2007,5:16 pm)
QUOTE
About the LEARN sign's I seen one today that was ripped down from a yard.
Do you remeber where it was at?
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 30 2007,5:58 pm
Wiskero--"If they build it they will come". Reminds me of the term "Cargo Cult". Here's an example from Wikipedia QUOTE
The classic period of cargo cult activity, however, was in the years during and after World War II. The vast amounts of war matériel that were airdropped into these islands during the Pacific campaign against the Empire of Japan necessarily meant drastic changes to the lifestyle of the islanders, many of whom had never seen Westerners or Japanese before. Manufactured clothing, medicine, canned food, tents, weapons and other useful goods arrived in vast quantities to equip soldiers — and also the islanders who were their guides and hosts. With the end of the war the airbases were abandoned, and "cargo" was no longer being dropped.
In attempts to get cargo to fall by parachute or land in planes or ships again, islanders imitated the same practices they had seen the soldiers, sailors and airmen use. They carved headphones from wood, and wore them while sitting in fabricated control towers. They waved the landing signals while standing on the runways. They lit signal fires and torches to light up runways and lighthouses. The cultists thought that the foreigners had some special connection to their own ancestors, who were the only beings powerful enough to produce such riches.
In a form of sympathetic magic, many built life-size mockups of airplanes out of straw, and created new military style landing strips, hoping to attract more airplanes. Ultimately, though these practices did not bring about the return of the god-like airplanes that brought such marvelous cargo during the war, they did have the effect of eradicating the religious practices that had existed prior to the war.
Over the last seventy-five years most cargo cults have petered out. Yet, the John Frum cult is still active on the island of Tanna, Vanuatu. And from time to time, the term "cargo cult" is invoked as an English language idiom, to mean any group of people who imitate the superficial exterior of a process or system without having any understanding of the underlying substance.
The islanders in the Pacific thought that all they had to do to regain prosperity was to go through the motions of building an ersatz facility, and prosperity would soon be theirs.
In attempts to get cargo to fall by parachute or land in planes or ships again, islanders imitated the same practices they had seen the soldiers, sailors and airmen use. They carved headphones from wood, and wore them while sitting in fabricated control towers. They waved the landing signals while standing on the runways. They lit signal fires and torches to light up runways and lighthouses. The cultists thought that the foreigners had some special connection to their own ancestors, who were the only beings powerful enough to produce such riches.
In a form of sympathetic magic, many built life-size mockups of airplanes out of straw, and created new military style landing strips, hoping to attract more airplanes. Ultimately, though these practices did not bring about the return of the god-like airplanes that brought such marvelous cargo during the war, they did have the effect of eradicating the religious practices that had existed prior to the war.
Over the last seventy-five years most cargo cults have petered out. Yet, the John Frum cult is still active on the island of Tanna, Vanuatu. And from time to time, the term "cargo cult" is invoked as an English language idiom, to mean any group of people who imitate the superficial exterior of a process or system without having any understanding of the underlying substance.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 30 2007,6:00 pm
MedicWow you really got me with that one. I will have to review your posts for any errors in grammer.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 30 2007,6:04 pm
QUOTE
Wildjim, I hope your not a teacher with the in to thing! About the LEARN sign's I seen one today that was ripped down from a yard.
QUOTE
Do you remeber where it was at?
One was on Frank Hall Drive, snapped right off the stakes. There was also one on Columbus. That's just too bad that it has to come to that. Very, very sad.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 30 2007,6:11 pm
(january @ Oct. 30 2007,2:12 pm)
QUOTE
Oh ya, the current money would be there through June of 2008 so if we had the special referendum in August 2008, that is just 2 months without the extra 2 million bucks and during those months the kids are not even in school anyway.
I hope you are kidding. This referendum would impact taxes payable 2008. An August referendum, which I am not sure you can hold, would impact taxes payable 09. If I were Medic I guess I would need to insert a line about hoping you are not.....
Posted by MAKER on Oct. 30 2007,6:11 pm
Reminds me of the whole Jean Eaton thing and her sign ordeal!
Posted by hymiebravo on Oct. 30 2007,6:24 pm
Sign "ordeals" are as old as signs I'm sure. lolCould just be a random act of vandalism/violence/stupidity too.
Like say for example something like pumkin smashing.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 30 2007,6:31 pm
That's what I'm hoping for as long as they were just home-made signs, maybe some kids thought that other kids made them and were just screwin' around The one on Frank Hall Drive is by Halverson school, so who knows.
Posted by january on Oct. 30 2007,6:37 pm
Jim:Read the article and it was good. Please explain the part about the "happy fluff" I did not understand what you meant.
Thanks
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 30 2007,6:43 pm
I challenge Mark Ciota to name just one. Not two, not three, not four or five, just ONE applicant, one prospective doctor who will state in writing he didn't except a job in Albert Lea because not enough tax money is spent on schools. He can't. Not even one. NOT EVEN ONE.
Same old tired argument rehashed over and over again. If we just spend this...that will happen. Total and complete self serving BS and an insult to any intelligent thinking citizen. Mark Ciota is deliberately insulting our intelligence. A salesman, he's not. That's my job.
Posted by medic on Oct. 30 2007,6:55 pm
Wildjim, thanks for the advice. Never said I was a perfect, my crap does stink, and I put my pants on one leg at a time. You seem to have a lot of answers for things and I have learned some from you. Please forgive my error's in grammer, I'm just a product of 241. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find more wrong with my post. I myself would take a look at my spelling. If you and I are both from 241 then the problem goes back long before the new school! As far as if you were me... Anytime you want to step up and try to be me, give it a try.
Posted by medic on Oct. 30 2007,7:01 pm
Sorry, as for the sign that I seen down, it was on Hawthorne street. Maybe the school being so near has something to do with it, or maybe just kids. Funny how I have not seem the same thing with TEAM signs around town. Kinda makes you think?
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 30 2007,7:45 pm
From Wildjim QUOTE
Medic
Wow you really got me with that one. I will have to review your posts for any errors in grammer.
Would that be GRAMMAR? Wow you really got me with that one. I will have to review your posts for any errors in grammer.
January--"happy fluff" was a kinder sarcasm--a comment on the "spin" the district put on in their "newsletter" mailed out at taxpayer expense. I guess I should have expected it--EVERY incumbent uses the power of the office to put their best foot forward, but I found the following statement particularly egregious
" State law" did NOT mandate that District #241 publish how to join TEAM--OR their meeting schedule, OR the fact that it is in school buildings, OR their telephone number.
"State law" did NOT mandate that a picture would be run with the caption
QUOTE
"Your approval will help continue athletic and academic success"
THAT is "spin"."State Law" did NOT mandate that the statement
QUOTE
District 241 receives less money than State average, area schools"
While they correctly point out that Albert Lea receives less money than Glenville or Alden, they neglect to point out that if this is approved, they will receive MORE from levies than any Big Nine school district, except Winona. "State Law" did NOT mandate that the statement
QUOTE
Achieving--85 Albert Lea High SChool students won a variety of regional, state, and national competitions or awards including 20 FFA and 24 band students.
(the last two catagories included over HALF of the awards received--and no mention of what the awards were FOR) If they were truly looking to recognize the recipients of the awards, they would have published the recipients names, and what the awards were FOR. That's "happy fluff"."State Law" did NOT mandate the statement
QUOTE
"Albert Lea Area Schools are a vital part of the community in many ways"
above a photo of unidentified students. THAT is "happy fluff"--something obvious, but was there a point in that statement somewhere?"State Law" did NOT mandate the statements
QUOTE
Achieving--the vast majority of students pass the Adequate Yearly Progress tests" or "Two elementary schools received four stars on the state Adequate Yearly Progress tests in 2006"
Wouldn't you EXPECT that the vast majority of students pass the AYP tests? That would be like saying "I'm a safe driver, because I almost always get to my destination without getting in a wreck." THAT's "Happy Fluff"--what's the point of those statements?All in all, the "Mandated" mailing at taxpayer expense was a huge commercial for the passage of the referendum. Look at Bianca's questions to the Minnesota Attorney General--and their response. I don't think it passes the "smell test" for being neutral on the issue--and it appears that the Attorney General agrees.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 30 2007,7:54 pm
^AMEN
Posted by january on Oct. 30 2007,8:17 pm
Gingko:You said "If you believe the schools are failing because they did not meet every catagory of NCLB AYP then you do not understand what AYP means."
No one on this site has said this, but you.
Sir, from the Minnesota Dept of Education website and I quote.
"If your school has a "NO " in ANY catagory it did not meet adequate yearly progress.
I am unsure how to explain it any other way.
Busybee knows this stuff better than anyone else on here so perhaps she can explain it better than I.
Posted by medic on Oct. 30 2007,8:48 pm
Great post Jim. Thanks for pointing out my mistake, and also my point! Keep up the good work. The facts you point out are great and your information is solid. Keep up the good work.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 30 2007,10:26 pm
Taking down signs is bush league. For or against people should be able to express their views.
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 30 2007,10:33 pm
And, one side shouldn't be able to use the school and other public resources. We don't pay taxes to support one political position over another.
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 31 2007,12:13 am
Thanks for the spellng help Jim. Hey, that reminds me did your ever post which school board meeting you were at to ask questions and offer your views?
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 31 2007,12:36 am
Why? Must a person attend these meetings in order to be credible or something?
Posted by busybee on Oct. 31 2007,12:57 am
QUOTE
What can't you understand about attracting business to Albert Lea. No one has said that the New High School and quality education will bring new business, only that it is one of the starting point that is important to business and their employees when excepting a job in a community. When the head of Chamber of Commerce, Director of the Community Development corporation, The Director of the Convention and Visitor Bureau and the Administrator of the Albert Lea Medical Center all say that it is important, and they are the ones talking to prospective businesses and employees then you will not even listen to facts.
What can't you understand that we've always ONLY been at the starting point!
What can't you understand that we've LEARNed our community, children, local businesses etc... NEED a POSITIVE GOAL to ACHIEVE together.
What can't you understand that spending MONEY on something WITHOUT a positive goal is only a "shot in the dark and nothing more."
What can't you understand WE CAN NOT CONTINUE TO BELIEVE WE WILL SURVIVE BY SPENDING MONEY ON HOPING FOR A BETTER FUTURE!
What can't you understand that what brings people to communities and helps local businesses is having something unique...a vision...a mission to do something that other communities are NOT paying attention to.
What can't you understand that this referendum will do NOTHING more than what has already been done...supporting it is not an improvement...it will only be proof that we strive to be like everyone else.
What can't you understand that people won't come here just because we might decide to support our schools with MONEY only!
Money alone is not the answer to everything.
QUOTE
I asked Dr Prescot (the superintendent) about the use of the schools for TEAMS, and he said that any group can use the schools. There are different classifications of use (I did not ask about fees), but any organization that wants to help the school or promote education can use the school rooms free.
That was really nice of you to find out. LEARN has already been told this, however NO ONE who says they're saying it's okay has role played themselves as a LEARN member when they asked.
QUOTE
If you believe the schools are failing because they did not meet every category of NCLB AYP (Annual Yearly Progress) then you do not understand what AYP means. It is a fact - and you can check it out on the Minnesota Education Web site - that the Albert Lea District #241 has passed the "All Students" (that is the group that includes all students together) has passed the AYP every year since testing started in 2003.
Well, that's now how I read the file on the MDE. We are on the list of DISTRICTS that did not meet AYP in 2007, 2006 & 2005. That means DISTRICT 241 is in "needs improvement status." Does that mean I think our district is a failure...NO...it means I want our district to get off that list and onto the passing AYP list.
If I'm going to be told by other members of this community, the district & team etc... that I am obligiated to support spending money on our "schools" and "quality in education" than I'm choosing to say I want some of this money to be spent on IMPROVING academics so more students will pass as I know this is going to get tougher as the years progress to be a quality district with quality schools.
Besides, what in the world is wrong with wanting to spend some money on a referendum for "more academics?"
QUOTE
What you don't seem to understand (or care about understanding) is what the AYP means. The state never uses the word "Failing or Failure" because that is not what it is or means. "Needs Improvement" is more closely the terms to use, and if you study carefully the results of the test, you would see that it is mostly the group identified as "Hispanic" and "Special Needs" that have not meet their benchmark for that year. Each year to the year 2013-2014 the benchmark increases, meaning a larger percentage of students need to pass the test to stay on target to reach the ultimate goal of 100% of kids passing the test. As we get closer to that year you will see that most schools will not meet the AYP goal because not all students are capable of passing. Working towards the goal is great, helping each kid reach their own potential is great, but not everyone has the native ability to pass. That does not mean that the school is not doing a good job, or that the kid is a failure, or will not succeed in school, career or life. Not everyone is capable of passing Calculus or Organic Chemisty, or can be a Doctor, or Lawyer, or whatever.
What's interesting is from 2006 to 2007 there was NO INCREASE in AYP, yet District 241 added another school as not meeting AYP from 2006 to 2007. Same achievement goals both years, yet instead of going forward, we take one step back.
That doesn't say to me that our schools are failing, rather, it's a concern that our district isn't as "fine tuned" as it should be. I believe they NEED more support (funds) so they can pursue developing an improved learning environment/cirriculum/staff support etc...sooner than if they didn't have the funding for that.
As I said before, no one can survive on hope alone. Passing this referendum and "hoping" the district has all they need to deal with NCLB and our own state's goals for the future of Minnesota students certainly isn't a guarantee of anything better.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 31 2007,1:08 am
QUOTE
Hey, that reminds me did your ever post which school board meeting you were at to ask questions and offer your views?
That's quite an anology you've been spewing towards Jim.
How about you share what school board meeting you've attended and challenged the board in a belief they had that you didn't. Tell us how you got them to see it YOUR way and IMPLIMENT the change YOU thought would be best for students.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 31 2007,9:23 am
Medic--YOU didn't make the mistake--Wildjim did, while attempting to correct you. That's what makes it so funny! Wildjim
QUOTE
Thanks for the spellng help Jim. Hey, that reminds me did your ever post which school board meeting you were at to ask questions and offer your views?
Using that analogy:You would have to attend the State Legislature or Congress to have an opinion on their dealings.
You would have to be an NFL quarterback in order to watch or have an opinion on football.
You would have to be a member of the Armed Forces to have an opinion on Iraq.
You would have to be a NASCAR driver in order to drive your car.
You would have to be a farmer and grow your own food to have an opinion on the farm program.
You would have to be an oilman, miner, or nuclear engineer to have an opinion on energy policy.
Is that sarcastic enough for you?
Or is your basic premise flawed? Some things STINK, and the answers are readily apparent. You don't have to shovel **** to recognize manure.
Posted by albertleamom on Oct. 31 2007,9:31 am
I for one think the LEARN signs are great! I've seen a few and i smile when i see one. Thanks to all you who have worked so hard on this!
Posted by JeffJimenez on Oct. 31 2007,10:41 am
Regardless of your views, get out and VOTE next Tuesday. Every vote counts and is important.Though I don't agree with LEARN and will be voting YES, YES on Tuesday, I have to applaud Tonya for her efforts. It takes a lot of guts to put yourself in that position where people can take shots at you. I also realize there are other people that support LEARN but she was the only one that put her name out there.
In a nutshell, it is a good thing that our community wants what is best for our kids' education. We just have different views on how it should be accomplished.
Posted by whatthe on Oct. 31 2007,10:52 am
January stated-I would appreciate it if you would not digress, degrade and cheapen this discussion. I understand that there is Freedom of Speech and of the Press but most of us are interested in facts, data, current events surrounding the referendum issue and that majority do not attempt to smear others or make snide stupid comments. Medic--YOU didn't make the mistake--Wildjim did, while attempting to correct you. That's what makes it so funny!
Jim states-
Using that analogy:
You would have to attend the State Legislature or Congress to have an opinion on their dealings.
You would have to be an NFL quarterback in order to watch or have an opinion on football.
You would have to be a member of the Armed Forces to have an opinion on Iraq.
You would have to be a NASCAR driver in order to drive your car.
You would have to be a farmer and grow your own food to have an opinion on the farm program.
You would have to be an oilman, miner, or nuclear engineer to have an opinion on energy policy.
Is that sarcastic enough for you? Or is your basic premise flawed?
Some things STINK, and the answers are readily apparent. You don't have to shovel **** to recognize manure.
I am glad we are sticking to the subject
The sad truth is all the information is out and the only thing left is bashing each other-it is sad, but it will happen. It will be over signs, rhetoric,etc.
I wish the vote would be today to end all of the bashing.
Posted by Liberal on Oct. 31 2007,10:54 am
A older member of LEARN was putting pamphlets on cars last night and some middle aged punk blocked his car in and told him that he was lucky he didn't put one of those on his car. When the LEARN member asked, "Why?" the middle aged punk said that if he would have then he would have kicked his ass. Then the TEAM supporter talked about how he was also a Tony Trow supporter. At that point the LEARN member was getting in his car and the punk got out of his vehicle and said "That's right run away."The police were called and it was handled very quietly over their computers so I didn't catch the license plate number or the person's address, but I can guarantee if he would have put one hand on my father I would have come to his house and beat him like a dog.
Another classy TEAM member.
Posted by ICU812 on Oct. 31 2007,11:12 am
(Liberal @ Oct. 31 2007,10:54 am)
QUOTE
A older member of LEARN was putting pamphlets on cars last night and some middle aged punk blocked his car in and told him that he was lucky he didn't put one of those on his car. When the LEARN member asked, "Why?" the middle aged punk said that if he would have then he would have kicked his ass. Then the TEAM supporter talked about how he was also a Tony Trow supporter. At that point the LEARN member was getting in his car and the punk got out of his vehicle and said "That's right run away."
The police were called and it was handled very quietly over their computers so I didn't catch the license plate number or the person's address, but I can guarantee if he would have put one hand on my father I would have come to his house and beat him like a dog.
Another classy TEAM member.
The police were called and it was handled very quietly over their computers so I didn't catch the license plate number or the person's address, but I can guarantee if he would have put one hand on my father I would have come to his house and beat him like a dog.
Another classy TEAM member.
What kind of car, what color?
Posted by katlade on Oct. 31 2007,11:12 am
It just goes to show that you can inform the public without spending alot of money for fancy signs etc. I bet you can educate kids without all the bells and whistles too. In fact all the bells and whistles can sometimes be more of a distraction than education tools.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 31 2007,11:26 am
QUOTE
In a nutshell, it is a good thing that our community wants what is best for our kids' education. We just have different views on how it should be accomplished.
Exactly!
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 31 2007,12:40 pm
JimTry to keep up. Medic posted that he hoped I was not a teacher since I used ran in to rather than ran into. I then then posted something my error and perhaps I should review his posts for spelling and grammer. You then pointed out my spelling error.
By the way, can you help me understand the meaning of the word anology, according to busybee I am spewing one at you?
Posted by Liberal on Oct. 31 2007,12:49 pm
QUOTE
What kind of car, what color?
Red minivan (maybe a Caravan), the jerk was middle aged, dark hair, tall and thin. He was wearing a leather jacket and slacks, and his wife was a "heavy set" blonde.
Posted by katlade on Oct. 31 2007,1:14 pm
There are several people that I know that will not put signs in their yard or publically state that they will not vote for yes for the referendum because of the retalitory remarks and actions of TEAM supporters. What the hell are they trying to teach our children anyway? It sure isn't American History or Civics. I representative from TEAM better make a comment on this soon. I am waiting.
Posted by The Game on Oct. 31 2007,2:51 pm
Dont hold your breath, here is one womans dealing with another school board...The public school district has officially demanded that parent Sandra Tetley remove what it says is libelous material from her Web site or face a lawsuit for defamation.
Tetley received a letter Monday from the district’s law firm demanding she remove what it termed libelous statements and other “legally offensive” statements posted by her or anonymous users, and refrain from allowing such postings in the future. If she refuses, the district plans to sue her, the demand letter states.
Tetley said she’ll review the postings cited by David Feldman of the district’s firm Feldman and Rogers. She’ll consider the context of the postings and consult attorneys before deciding what to delete.
“If it’s not worth keeping in there, I’ll take it out,” she said. “If in fact it is libelous, I have no problem taking it down.”
Libel Or Opinion?
Feldman said Tetley’s Web site — < www.gisdwatch.com > — contained the most “personal, libelous invective directed toward a school administrator” he’s seen in his 31-year career.
“It is not the desire of the School District, the Board, or this Firm to stifle free expression or inhibit robust debate regarding matters pertaining to the operation of the public schools,” Feldman wrote in the demand letter. “This is solely about the publication of materials that clearly go beyond that which is legally and constitutionally encouraged and permitted, and into the realm of what is legally offensive and actionable.”
Feldman cited 16 examples of what he says are libelous postings. Half were posted by Tetley; the other half were posted by anonymous users.
The postings accuse Superintendent Lynne Cleveland, trustees and administrators of lying, manipulation, falsifying budget numbers, using their positions for “personal gain,” violating the Open Meetings Act and spying on employees, among other things.
Tetley said the postings were opinions only.
“Everyone deserves to have their opinion,” she said. “I don’t think they have a right to make me, or anyone else, take down criticisms of them off the Web site. They’re not going to force us to take off our opinions because we have no other place to go.”
Tetley said she had not removed any of the postings as of late Tuesday.
Rare Move
One legal expert said the district’s move to sue Tetley is rare and unlawful. Under the 1964 Supreme Court case New York Times v. Sullivan, government entities cannot sue for libel — any court would toss out the “threatening” suit as being inconsistent with U.S. law, said Sandra Baron, executive director of New-York based Media Law Resource Center. She called the district’s potential lawsuit an intimidation tactic and a waste of taxpayer dollars.
Feldman said the district is only asking Tetley to remove a small percentage of postings on her site that he says accuse trustees and administrators of breaking the law. They’re not trying to shut down the blog or eliminate postings, he said.
“How can that be threatening or initmidating?” he said. “There’s a tremendous amount of dialogue, if you will, on that Web log that we’re not touching with a pole ... What we leave is this huge field of free expression and discourse. There’s debate and then there’s libel. Debate all you want, criticize all you want, but don’t accuse people of committing crimes when you have absolutely no evidence to support that.”
More than 130 registered users post on Tetley’s site. Since trustees threatened legal action, more people have been visiting the site and posting, Tetley said. She said she planned to post Feldman’s letter on the site.
“People are very tired of what this type of government is doing,” Tetley said. “They are using our money to silence us.”
The law firm monitored the site for months before trustees took action. Board President David O’Neal said the postings deter potential employees from working at the district.
Tetley and her group, Galveston Alliance for Neighborhood schools, has long criticized the district for reconfiguring its middle schools, closing elementary schools, meeting in executive sessions some claimed were illegal, refusing to divulge the contents of a letter from a civil rights consultant and for issuing a budget forecast that was off by $10 million.
The district’s controversial reconfiguration, to go into effect in 2008-09, prompted Tetley to start the site.
It’s often difficult to prove a public official has been libeled. Aside from proving the libelous statements are damaging, public officials must also prove actual malice. Actual malice means knowing a statement is false or having reckless disregard for the truth.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 31 2007,3:21 pm
Good article Game, thanks for posting. I don't think people realized that you can speak your "opinion" on forums, which is what makes a good forum.Did anyone see Schmeltzers pro-referendum editorial? My dad always calls him schnauzer
because of his name. I think his editorials/ bought and paid for opinion of his membership to the Chamber are what give the Tribune the endearing "fishwrap" name.Everyone has undoubtedly seen how lop-sided the Tribune has been in printing pro-referendum stuff throughout this two months. Last I knew a good newspaper was supposed to be unbiased.
Maybe they would get more subscribers if Schmeltzer wasn't such an easy mark. The Chamber knew exactly what they were doing with his membership and then sweetened the deal with his little award they gave him
Too bad he doesn't realize that he's just a pawn in THEIR chess game.**On that note, remember the last day for submitting letters to the editor regarding the referendum is tomorrow.**
Posted by katlade on Oct. 31 2007,3:24 pm
Well, hopefully people can see through these TEAM and TEAM supporters tactics and vote their conscience. All that LEARN is asking for is accountablility. Nothing wrong with that. Everybody should be held accountable for their actions. I am not so sure that all of our elected Dist 241, city and county officials have quite grasped that concept yet.
Posted by medic on Oct. 31 2007,5:14 pm
I have more questions. Teachers have told the kids during class to talk to parents about what could happen if we dont vote yes. They did this last year also. 1) what are they teaching the kids, a 3rd grader should not have this put in his/her lap. 2) If they can tell the kids this during education time why has LEARN not been given the same and equal chance? Also my LEARN sign was removed by someone today!PS. this post may not be perfect
Posted by bianca on Oct. 31 2007,5:22 pm
medic-Sorry to hear about the sign. I will bring you another.
Posted by jimhanson on Oct. 31 2007,6:01 pm
Sometimes, it's hard to understand exactly the point a writer is trying to make. Consider the "Guest column" in today's paper--someone that is obviously confused. Here's an excerpt:QUOTE
The question needs to be raised if our school board and administration are doing all they can to keep and inspire the shareholder’s support. I don’t believe they are. We have operated under an administrative-led leadership for a long time and it is failing. Is it inconceivable to believe that our district leaders could serve us best by embracing a district community-led leadership?
I have identified six areas that could be addressed immediately with a plan of action.
1. Transparency. We own the district, there is no place for secrecy. One example: All district salaries and perks are public information. Publish them. Transparency creates trust.
2. Setting priorities. Speak to the shareholders all the time, not only at referendum time. What is determined to be important by this district community? Find out! Do not expect that to happen at the school board meetings unless you plan to be more welcoming. District community-based priorities create community pride.
3. Goal setting. When the district communities priority list is evaluated, goals should be publicly stated for each area of school business; buildings, education, athletics, music, art, etc. This will create a venue for people to decide when and how they can use their resources and talents to help contribute. Goals set and met create respect.
4. Accountability. Take the state and federal standards seriously, they are the only yardsticks we are measured by. Political and personal problems with the set standards should be fought on your own time. Example: Do not tell a group of 11th-graders that a test does not matter. That is equivalent to informing teens you’d like to waste two hours of their time, then blaming them for not performing.
5. Policy. Policy is binding. Any area of school district business that does not have policy yet established must have policy written. Policy creates fairness and equity, it also protects against misinterpretation.
6. Dialogue, positive and negative discussion needs to occur. Leaders cannot react to every critical comment with defensiveness and personal attack. Welcome dialogue. Seek it out. It is the cornerstone of growth. There is nothing more negative than a fear of dialogue or change, rotting in the status quo when it is failing. Dialogue creates a clear direction.
I am a believer in fostering community pride, in this case district community pride. This district community must embrace the fact that we own the school district, and decide if it is acceptable that the business we are running is failing. The school board and the administration must embrace the fact that shareholders and consumers have lost faith and it is their responsibility to possibly change entirely their leadership approach.
Once established, the power of district community pride can and will inspire all of us to want to be the best we can be. Ultimately, full district community support will minimize the flighty and irresponsible budget stances of our state and federal governments.
In conclusion, I guess each one of us is, in some capacity, responsible for the quality of our education. What will you choose to do? I am voting yes! yes! and will continue to encourage change.
Karen Blumer Smed graduated from Albert Lea High School in 1977. After living in Europe, she moved back to Albert Lea in 1995. She is the mother of a freshman and a senior.
I have identified six areas that could be addressed immediately with a plan of action.
1. Transparency. We own the district, there is no place for secrecy. One example: All district salaries and perks are public information. Publish them. Transparency creates trust.
2. Setting priorities. Speak to the shareholders all the time, not only at referendum time. What is determined to be important by this district community? Find out! Do not expect that to happen at the school board meetings unless you plan to be more welcoming. District community-based priorities create community pride.
3. Goal setting. When the district communities priority list is evaluated, goals should be publicly stated for each area of school business; buildings, education, athletics, music, art, etc. This will create a venue for people to decide when and how they can use their resources and talents to help contribute. Goals set and met create respect.
4. Accountability. Take the state and federal standards seriously, they are the only yardsticks we are measured by. Political and personal problems with the set standards should be fought on your own time. Example: Do not tell a group of 11th-graders that a test does not matter. That is equivalent to informing teens you’d like to waste two hours of their time, then blaming them for not performing.
5. Policy. Policy is binding. Any area of school district business that does not have policy yet established must have policy written. Policy creates fairness and equity, it also protects against misinterpretation.
6. Dialogue, positive and negative discussion needs to occur. Leaders cannot react to every critical comment with defensiveness and personal attack. Welcome dialogue. Seek it out. It is the cornerstone of growth. There is nothing more negative than a fear of dialogue or change, rotting in the status quo when it is failing. Dialogue creates a clear direction.
I am a believer in fostering community pride, in this case district community pride. This district community must embrace the fact that we own the school district, and decide if it is acceptable that the business we are running is failing. The school board and the administration must embrace the fact that shareholders and consumers have lost faith and it is their responsibility to possibly change entirely their leadership approach.
Once established, the power of district community pride can and will inspire all of us to want to be the best we can be. Ultimately, full district community support will minimize the flighty and irresponsible budget stances of our state and federal governments.
In conclusion, I guess each one of us is, in some capacity, responsible for the quality of our education. What will you choose to do? I am voting yes! yes! and will continue to encourage change.
Karen Blumer Smed graduated from Albert Lea High School in 1977. After living in Europe, she moved back to Albert Lea in 1995. She is the mother of a freshman and a senior.
Transparency, priorities, goal-setting--accountability, stated policy, and dialogue--when you get your LEARN brochure in the mail, revue it--these are the EXACT SAME THINGS that LEARN is asking for.
The writer seems to be a little confused. She ADMITS that the present system is a failure, then says she is going to vote for MORE OF THE SAME!
YOU don't have to be confused. Thanksgiving is coming Vote this turkey of a bill DOWN, and tell the Administration/TEAM to come back with something BETTER.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 31 2007,6:21 pm
EXACTLY what I thought when I read that today. I couldn't believe it, then she has the audacity to say that SHE thought of these. Woooo-Hoooo she's cuckoo for cocoa-puffs or somethin' Almost word for word from the LEARN brochures we've been handing out since last Friday, but then says vote yes. Zoinks! It was wayyyyy too funny Nothin' like some good ol fashion plagiarism to spice things up.
Posted by bianca on Oct. 31 2007,6:45 pm
Here is LEARN's pamphlet:LEARN=Let’s Educate and Accept Responsibility Now is a group of citizens who want accountability and choice in our spending in District 241.
In order to create the best quality in District 241 education, we need to involve the community voters and the district in a collaborative effort to decide the use of best local tax dollars. We believe it is time to move forward in our efforts and become a community of educators, rather than depending on a few to make the choices that effect our children’s needs and wants in education.
The district has failed the Annual Yearly Progress report in the No Child Left Behind testing for three years in the core subjects of Reading and Math. There appears to be no stated goals of what the district remedies will be. Over the next year taxpayers could unite with District 241 to address the issue of NCLB to better serve student progress. We need to push ahead for academic success and away from “reconstitution.”
District 241, TEAM, The Chamber, ALEDA, and the Albert Lea Tribune have consistently stated that passing referendums makes good schools and will bring people in along with better jobs, which will create community growth. We have heard this since 1997 when we voted for the 35 million dollar referendum. According to the census bureau, Albert Lea’s population is 17,758 people. In 2000, when the high school opened
The population was 18,356. From 2000 to 2007 Albert Lea is at a NEGATIVE population growth of -3.26 percent. We have thus lost, not gained 598 people.
Unfortunately for our community, contrary to these assertions, the school district’s referendums are not an absolute given toward community growth and prosperity. It is LEARN’s belief that if we as community educators along with District 241 take a year to focus together on what’s best toward building educational progress in our schools, putting focus on student academics first, our schools will in fact be more attractive to others. The aesthetics of the high school are excellent—anyone contemplating moving here will already be pleased with the new school building. Investigating in depth to high school academic achievement, however, tells a different story. We would like to explore ideas that would focus SPECIFICALLY how academics at our high school will improve.
At this time, LEARN does not think the referendum should be supported—especially a bill that will reach out far into the future. No votes typically stem from people not having a voice in referendum agenda choices before a vote. Together, as community educators, we could participate in building prideful goals in our district and schools that would have people going to vote next year with confidence in their decision.
A proposed community dialogue would involve at least the following items:
A discussion of whether to keep or cut one elementary school: By District 241’s Administration’s own proposals, keeping an additional school open is a million dollar a year proposition. We have to ask,”What ELSE could we do with that money to achieve excellence?” Taxpayers (community educators) may very well figure that having an additional school open IS the best use of a million dollars, and if that is the decision, so be it. Community educators SHOULD be able to have input.
Comparative choices: On the school board website—there are a NUMBER of cost-saving possibilities. For example, we can save a substantial amount of money by going to contract janitorial services instead of district employees—at no detriment to scholastic achievement. Would we rather have our own janitors, or have our children walk to school?
Priorities: Set the budget, and let the PUBLIC decide the priorities. No one wants to see any “extra” program cut. However, if it comes down to ensuring that adequate academic needs are met and improving—it should not be hard to make that choice. Academic excellence comes first.
Top down. People making budget cuts usually start at the bottom, and work up. It takes a LOT of janitorial wages to equal one administrator’s salary.
Guarantees. The Administration has given no guarantees that they will not cut programs if given the money and/or that test scores will improve. We would like to see the Administration make a solid commitment that states…”If you give us this money , this is what we will do and this is how we plan to improve progress.”
Options. We feel the Administration has over-reached by requesting over $2 million dollars. We feel that there is a “middle ground” attainable by next year. By developing a dialogue, setting priorities, considering options, and getting guarantees, perhaps the best thing would be to propose a “Give us One Million in cuts, we’ll give you one million in levy taxes.” That is a win for both sides—fiscal responsibility, money to sustain programs, community involvement and while meeting our obligations to student academic progress.
Referendum literature is mailed out with taxpayers money, so we as taxpayers have the right to hear more than one side. The Administration/TEAM has mailed out pro-referendum material. We feel opponents to the referendum should be afforded the same opportunity.
The Minnesota Attorney General’s office states that when a school board uses public funds to advocate for one side only of a referendum issue without giving the other side the same opportunity to use public funds to present their side, this has been held to be improper. “the public funds entrusted to the board belong equally to the proponents and opponents of the proposition, and the use of the funds to pay not just for the presentation of facts only, but also to persuade the voters to side with one position, only is NOT a proper use of public funds.”
LEARN wants what is best for students and will not resort to involving students or use their learning environment to push our goals on the voters. LEARN does not advocate for hanging materials in any District 241 school building as we see this environment as educational and separate from political referendum voting choice. We take issue with:
The 32 POTENTIAL cuts individually hung on each side of the junior high cafeteria.
Pro-referendum postcards addressed to children who haven’t even learned to read yet. LEARN believes this District list of future students is to be solely used for its educational purpose for pre-school screening and kindergarten enrollment. We believe taxpayers are more intelligent than this and view the use of students to achieve goals of adults is unacceptable. LEARN would like to take this to another level.
Creating a community of educators, setting goals, budgeting, and determining choices in the election process itself could be an exceptional learning experience for our kids. A community of educators will encourage children to ask questions and to make comparative decisions. As our children grow in our community, they will realize that we can’t have everything we want all the time. Choices must be made as priorities need to be met. A community of educators can model for our children a leadership that is accountable and responsible. We believe that as a community we need to come together to set an example of cohesiveness where everyone makes a difference and not just a few. Together we can all grow and LEARN—Let’s Educate and Accept Responsibility NOW!
Contact: Brian Bashans 373-8647
Tonya Lynch 377-8712
Paid for by Learn supporters on their own behalf
Posted by hymiebravo on Oct. 31 2007,8:09 pm
QUOTE
Transparency, priorities, goal-setting--accountability, stated policy, and dialogue--when you get your LEARN brochure in the mail, revue it--these are the EXACT SAME THINGS that LEARN is asking for
Yep sort of like the Republican presidential candidates in the last two elections. Use the other sides platform knowing good and well your aren't going to follow it.
Of course that confused the helk out of the Dems and they haven't seemed to know who they are ever since.
So I guess I would have to commend whomever wrote that for patterning their strategy after something that has worked and been sucsessful.
I would be peed off if I were the School people.
All these calls for acountabilty meanwhile every other Tom, Dick and (Insert female name of choice here) on the public dole and in public service in AL and Freeborn County seem to do whatever the helk they want to do with no real accountabilty to anyone.
Posted by january on Oct. 31 2007,8:27 pm
What I think the Guest Columnist did today was to reach an even broader public with the message. And I quote "Accountability. Take the state and federal standards SERIOUSLY, they are the only yardsticks we are measured by.
POLITICAL AND PERSONAL PROBLEMS WITH THE SET STANDARDS SHOULD BE FOUGHT ON YOUR OWN TIME.
Example: Do not tell a group of 11th graders that a test does not matter. That is equivalent to informing teens you'd like to waste two hours of their time, then blaming them for not performing."
Jim, you said the Tribune probably won't publish your letter. So this letter did summarize in a revealing way flaws and potential solutions with the current system.
Although I understand she advocates a yes vote.
She also advocates for changes, continual dialogue, respect of all persons involved.
She comes down harder than anyone else I've read on the leadership. She does not like the current administrative leadership model we have now and wants to move toward a district community led leadership model.
That is what LEARN has advocated.
She at least does not mimic almost every other article I have read with the Vote Yes to keep the same quality of education that we have now mantra.
I think perhaps the only difference between her views and LEARN'S views is that she will vote yes and work to change within the system and LEARN wants a NO vote so that the Board and Administration is forced to sit down and look at community input and really make the needed changes.
Posted by busybee on Oct. 31 2007,10:23 pm
At the high school has been the biggest push lately...kids are hearing that they'll be going to a 4 week day next year and all sports and music programs will be cut. Most of the parents who have talked to me about this say their child is reporting teachers are telling the kids this and to encourage mom, dad and other family members to vote yes, yes. And there is the 32 cuts hanging on both sides of the wall at SW. What I'd like to know is how the kids learn the reason for them being there in the first place...considering there is no other information than the cuts? Staff perhaps?
What exactly is the purpose of schools to share with students all the losses they believe they should be aware of?
Do they do this for every other type of election? With presidents, govenors, local elections?
How about we let our schools decide which President our students should be telling their parents & family to vote for based upon that person's political platform in education. How about we let them encourage our students to tell others to vote yes for a govenor canidate and not the other because they'll lose the funding for a 5 day school week or sports & music.
Would we allow the above to happen in our schools? Or would we rather if our schools felt so compelled to direct the ADULT voting public in a certain direction by involving the students that they not only let them know about the potential losses, but also reassure them that even if a certain canidate were to be elected, it will be okay and our community and the district will work together to come up with a plan that works either way?
I think it's rather odd that in one post on here someone talked about how tacky it was that LEARN pamphlets were put on vehicle windows at a church. Yet, I've heard from some parents that last evening at the concert, that people paid $7.00 to attend, were given a piece of paper with "VOTE YES, YES upon leaving and there was also referendum information placed on vehicle windshields while they were watching the concert.
All I can say is I am really disappointed about how this has been going, especially for the children of our community. There are two choices, vote for it to pass or vote for it to fail. Yet, there is the constant bombarding of literature, people, newspaper articles, etc...showing only one side...the if we don't pass this the children will suffer. Hello! Is this what we want our children to believe, the only way they will be safe & secure in their education is, if and only if, everyone votes yes, yes.
BECAUSE of the type of campaigning done by the pro-referendum side, the message our children will get if it fails is they are going to lose everything important to them. I have never seen such a blatant disgreguard for the feelings of the children in our community. They should NOT be having to worry about ADULT issues...my gosh, they're only children!
Posted by TameThaTane on Oct. 31 2007,10:43 pm
That's just so wrong, but it'll backfire. A FOUR day school week! And the angels sang!
The children rejoiced!
Posted by Common Citizen on Oct. 31 2007,11:17 pm
Interesting BB. My daughter, who attends Sibley, just came home and said that very thing, about the 4 day school week, and that she was told this by two teacher's from the district.hmmmm....
Posted by wildjim on Oct. 31 2007,11:29 pm
Jim How does one revue a piece of paper?
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 01 2007,12:30 am
If it doesn't pass and they don't go to a 4 day week, do we get to sue?
Posted by ICU812 on Nov. 01 2007,9:34 am
< Link to story >QUOTE
Higher taxes, better schools? No
School taxes are almost twice as high in Lino Lakes as they are in Forest Lake.
So, is the education twice as good?
Not even close. The school districts have similar classes, buildings and test scores. But a study by the nonpartisian Citizens League and the Pioneer Press shows that school tax rates vary greatly - with the quality of education affected slightly, if at all.
Metro area voters will decide the fates of 25 school levies Tuesday involving $245 million in taxes. School officials say the levies are worthwhile, paying for buildings, smaller classes or new technology.
But although the money helps, experts say voters who believe higher local taxes automatically mean better education are kidding themselves.
"You can pass referendums until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean you're funded properly," said Bob DeBoer, who analyzed the 2006-07 tax rates for the Citizens League.
In fact, high local taxes can be a sign of low total spending. Homeowners sometimes have to pay higher taxes to try to compensate for shortfalls in revenue from other sources, such as local businesses or the state.
The variation in taxes to homeowners is based on several factors:
-- Local taxes are only 17 percent of a typical school's budget. Major gains for a school district's budget come from improvements in state funding, not in local taxes.
-- Got malls? Schools can be crippled by a shortage of nearby stores, industries and offices. Businesses
generate far more taxes than homes - so an all-residential neighborhood is a high-tax neighborhood.
-- The rich pay more in taxes, which tends to lower them for everyone else. Areas without million-dollar homes have to impose higher tax rates to raise the same amount of money.
-- School expenses vary. For example, a school district with older teachers will pay far more in salaries and pension costs. Some schools pay more for security than others.
The Spring Lake Park District had the biggest tax-rate increase this year - 21 percent. The biggest reduction was 13 percent, in the West St. Paul-Mendota Heights-Eagan district.
In the east metro area, the Centennial district had the highest local tax rate, and Forest Lake had the lowest. The extremes are even greater when considering the whole metro area - highest-tax Chanhassen charges taxpayers three times more than lowest-tax Mound.
Experts say student achievement is affected by factors schools can't control, such as the income and education of the parents. Other factors can sap the money that can boost test scores, such as high costs for special education, special classes for immigrants or school security.
But the fact remains that by school-shopping, parents can give their children the same education for half the taxes.
"It's difficult when someone says, 'Why should we come there and pay high taxes?' " said Centennial superintendent Roger Worner.
His district has the highest tax rate in the east metro area, yielding about $1,270 from a $250,000 home. Yet it spends less on education than the metro average - about $9 million less than if it taxed at the rate of neighboring Roseville, according to Worner.
Roseville is blessed with a large mall and other businesses that pour millions into its tax coffers. But the Centennial district is "property poor," with mostly houses. "We have one strip mall, virtually a Burger King and a Wal-Mart," said Worner.
So Roseville spends more on education, but local homeowner taxes are lower. Centennial spends less, but has higher local taxes.
Likewise, the Forest Lake district has nearly identical test scores as Centennial. Its voters have approved about 18 percent more money in referendums than Centennial's.
Yet taxes there are roughly half as much, because Forest Lake has businesses that Centennial does not. The tax capacity - the amount that can be raised - is $7,400 per pupil in Forest Lake versus $4,300 in Centennial.
Various state programs try to equalize this discrepancy, and only partly succeed. The state can't be trusted as a partner, Worner said.
In 1993, the state agreed to pay for half of new buildings in certain "property poor" districts. It was relatively easy to pass levies for the cost of half of the buildings, said Worner.
But the payments were tied to property values, and when home values soared during the housing bubble, state payments dropped. Today, the state is paying for 8 percent of building costs, and in two years the state won't pay at all.
That will leave local taxpayers to pay for the remainder of the 20-year mortgage, said Worner.
Making the spurious connection between high taxes and high test scores is common among home buyers, said Mike Noonan, president of the Home Builders Association of the Twin Cities and division president of Rottlund Homes.
High taxes can in some cases attract families, said Noonan. That's because when taxpayers vote to increase their taxes, home buyers often see it as a sign of strong support for schools.
"It shows the progressive nature of a population," said Noonan. "They are willing to ensure that facilities are appropriate."
Noonan said that even where tax discrepancies are large, they don't trigger migrations. Variations of several hundreds of dollars per year don't cause much concern, especially when compared with location, price of homes and quality of schools.
"I don't think average citizens know what they pay. It's virtually invisible. It's paid mostly by the state," said Noonan.
In the high-tax Centennial district, Worner is proud of what his staff is doing with a budget that's relatively puny through no fault of their own.
"It is staggering, the taxes people are paying," said Worner. "We need them to support the school."
Last year, said Worner, the Centennial teaching staff set its priorities. The No. 1 goal had nothing to do with curricula or teaching - but finding partners to help sue the state for the money he says it owes Centennial.
He jokingly fantasizes about boosting his tax base by seizing malls from his neighbors.
"We need to declare war and have an incursion," said Worner. "Hey, I am just kidding."
Bob Shaw can be reached at bshaw@pioneerpress.com or 651-228-5433.
School taxes are almost twice as high in Lino Lakes as they are in Forest Lake.
So, is the education twice as good?
Not even close. The school districts have similar classes, buildings and test scores. But a study by the nonpartisian Citizens League and the Pioneer Press shows that school tax rates vary greatly - with the quality of education affected slightly, if at all.
Metro area voters will decide the fates of 25 school levies Tuesday involving $245 million in taxes. School officials say the levies are worthwhile, paying for buildings, smaller classes or new technology.
But although the money helps, experts say voters who believe higher local taxes automatically mean better education are kidding themselves.
"You can pass referendums until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean you're funded properly," said Bob DeBoer, who analyzed the 2006-07 tax rates for the Citizens League.
In fact, high local taxes can be a sign of low total spending. Homeowners sometimes have to pay higher taxes to try to compensate for shortfalls in revenue from other sources, such as local businesses or the state.
The variation in taxes to homeowners is based on several factors:
-- Local taxes are only 17 percent of a typical school's budget. Major gains for a school district's budget come from improvements in state funding, not in local taxes.
-- Got malls? Schools can be crippled by a shortage of nearby stores, industries and offices. Businesses
generate far more taxes than homes - so an all-residential neighborhood is a high-tax neighborhood.
-- The rich pay more in taxes, which tends to lower them for everyone else. Areas without million-dollar homes have to impose higher tax rates to raise the same amount of money.
-- School expenses vary. For example, a school district with older teachers will pay far more in salaries and pension costs. Some schools pay more for security than others.
The Spring Lake Park District had the biggest tax-rate increase this year - 21 percent. The biggest reduction was 13 percent, in the West St. Paul-Mendota Heights-Eagan district.
In the east metro area, the Centennial district had the highest local tax rate, and Forest Lake had the lowest. The extremes are even greater when considering the whole metro area - highest-tax Chanhassen charges taxpayers three times more than lowest-tax Mound.
Experts say student achievement is affected by factors schools can't control, such as the income and education of the parents. Other factors can sap the money that can boost test scores, such as high costs for special education, special classes for immigrants or school security.
But the fact remains that by school-shopping, parents can give their children the same education for half the taxes.
"It's difficult when someone says, 'Why should we come there and pay high taxes?' " said Centennial superintendent Roger Worner.
His district has the highest tax rate in the east metro area, yielding about $1,270 from a $250,000 home. Yet it spends less on education than the metro average - about $9 million less than if it taxed at the rate of neighboring Roseville, according to Worner.
Roseville is blessed with a large mall and other businesses that pour millions into its tax coffers. But the Centennial district is "property poor," with mostly houses. "We have one strip mall, virtually a Burger King and a Wal-Mart," said Worner.
So Roseville spends more on education, but local homeowner taxes are lower. Centennial spends less, but has higher local taxes.
Likewise, the Forest Lake district has nearly identical test scores as Centennial. Its voters have approved about 18 percent more money in referendums than Centennial's.
Yet taxes there are roughly half as much, because Forest Lake has businesses that Centennial does not. The tax capacity - the amount that can be raised - is $7,400 per pupil in Forest Lake versus $4,300 in Centennial.
Various state programs try to equalize this discrepancy, and only partly succeed. The state can't be trusted as a partner, Worner said.
In 1993, the state agreed to pay for half of new buildings in certain "property poor" districts. It was relatively easy to pass levies for the cost of half of the buildings, said Worner.
But the payments were tied to property values, and when home values soared during the housing bubble, state payments dropped. Today, the state is paying for 8 percent of building costs, and in two years the state won't pay at all.
That will leave local taxpayers to pay for the remainder of the 20-year mortgage, said Worner.
Making the spurious connection between high taxes and high test scores is common among home buyers, said Mike Noonan, president of the Home Builders Association of the Twin Cities and division president of Rottlund Homes.
High taxes can in some cases attract families, said Noonan. That's because when taxpayers vote to increase their taxes, home buyers often see it as a sign of strong support for schools.
"It shows the progressive nature of a population," said Noonan. "They are willing to ensure that facilities are appropriate."
Noonan said that even where tax discrepancies are large, they don't trigger migrations. Variations of several hundreds of dollars per year don't cause much concern, especially when compared with location, price of homes and quality of schools.
"I don't think average citizens know what they pay. It's virtually invisible. It's paid mostly by the state," said Noonan.
In the high-tax Centennial district, Worner is proud of what his staff is doing with a budget that's relatively puny through no fault of their own.
"It is staggering, the taxes people are paying," said Worner. "We need them to support the school."
Last year, said Worner, the Centennial teaching staff set its priorities. The No. 1 goal had nothing to do with curricula or teaching - but finding partners to help sue the state for the money he says it owes Centennial.
He jokingly fantasizes about boosting his tax base by seizing malls from his neighbors.
"We need to declare war and have an incursion," said Worner. "Hey, I am just kidding."
Bob Shaw can be reached at bshaw@pioneerpress.com or 651-228-5433.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 01 2007,9:58 am
Either way, pass or fail, I'd like the district, schools, educational staff & team members to have more accountability when it comes to involving students and their learning environment/school related activities in referendum campaigning. No matter how I look at this, I disagree with it and it's not because I'm not happy with the lack of academic attention in the proposed referendum. Even though all these pro-referendum adults think they are justified in pushing the referendum at every possible opportunity...it still takes the focus off the children.
Maybe it gives some parents/family/community members a "warm fuzzy feeling" when they are handed pro-referendum literature upon the arrival at a school picnic or school related event, or parents when they go in to attend their child's conference, or hearing children express fear in losing out if the referendum fails because of what they've heard/saw from the adults actively involved in their academic environment. Whether or not one agrees or disagrees, children should NOT be used in this way.
LEARN has brought up the point that the use of a school building is not afforded to anti-referendumists. People take issue with that and assert that the same opportunity does in fact exist.
However, no one has given a thought to why LEARN has NOT been at any schools, has not been at any school related activities to push their views about how our schools and community could work together to create an improved referendum and desires to see greater focus on academics and accountability.
Could it be from that "warm fuzzy feeling" pro-referendumists have that they believe they're justified in preventing, complaining, and threatening of the anti-referendumists? Could it be LEARN doesn't want students involved in watching conflicts between adults?
LEARN has given a great amount of committment toward protecting the children of our community from exactly what they disagree with...involving them in political ADULT issues.
And for those of you who wonder where LEARN has been until now...I think it's been here all along, it's just many will do anything to keep them from communicating their ideas in a group form to the community.
This has never been about LEARN attacking anyone, it has been about LEARN wanting to see our entire community come together to share different ideas in quality of education, set goals together and plan for the long term affects on our community and the students our district serves.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 01 2007,10:04 am
Great article ICU812.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 01 2007,10:10 am
QUOTE
kids are hearing that they'll be going to a 4 week day next year and all sports and music programs will be cut. Most of the parents who have talked to me about this say their child is reporting teachers are telling the kids this and to encourage mom, dad and other family members to vote yes, yes.
QUOTE
there is the constant bombarding of literature, people, newspaper articles, etc...showing only one side...the if we don't pass this the children will suffer. Hello! Is this what we want our children to believe, the only way they will be safe & secure in their education is, if and only if, everyone votes yes, yes.
QUOTE
the message our children will get if it fails is they are going to lose everything important to them.
This is just soooo not right on sooo many levels.
QUOTE
some middle aged punk blocked his car in and told him that he was lucky he didn't put one of those on his car. When the LEARN member asked, "Why?" the middle aged punk said that if he would have then he would have kicked his ass..
This man that was verbally and almost physically attacked was my 67 year old father. And yes, those of you that don't know, Liberal's father also. Excuse me for thinking this is getting ridiculous and completely out of hand.
For Gods sake, Give TEAM the money if their supporters are going to turn into thugs over it, is this the community our children should be proud of?? Is this how we show our children we stand for something we believe in?? There were many kids/adults that witnessed this. I am both ashamed and disgusted in this community I grew up in for the poor behavior that is being displayed in front of or spoken to our children/our students.
QUOTE
Not sure of all the details, but had dinner out tonight and ran in to a guy that was none to happy about Learn plastering cars at church yesterday so now he voting yes for sure.
Details? It is completely legal to put information on car windshields as long as you do no harm to the vehicle. Call ALPD to verify. The last I knew everyone is able to go to any church unless that has changed. IMO, the problem with this particular church, Trinity Lutheran, is that the clergy thinks he IS God rather than just a worker of God.
I received a phone call Sunday afternoon from this Lutheran minister, Curtis Zeske, screaming in my ear that he EXPECTED me to go in front of his congregation this Sunday and apologize for the pamphlets that someone from LEARN had put on windshields. I told him there would be NO WAY that I would do that. Then he continued screaming then that he EXPECTED a written apology from me on behalf of LEARN on his desk by Monday morning at 8:00 am which he would then have published in the paper and then he HUNG UP on me.
QUOTE
I was told yesterday that this fellow had put his NO sign in the back of his truck and as soon as he did it a woman drove past and "flipped him off". Maybe this is why voting has to be done behind a curtain, so to speak
QUOTE
Also my LEARN sign was removed by someone today!
Now that I'm finally posting about some of the things that I didn't want to bring up I would also like to bring up something I was told by someone at the Trib. He/she
emailed me and told me that the Trib had received numerous people complaining about the Trib printing my guest article.
The principal at Hawthorne school even cancelled her subsription because SHE was so upset with the FACTS that I wrote. Apparently now she has taken matters into her own hands because the students at Hawthorne have been painting YES YES on the teachers windows for two days. Plus there have been three LEARN signs broken off in that area.
QUOTE
if any of you could make an honest effort to get past your belief that anyone/group who opposes the referendum is against the admin. TEAM, students and community you would actually see that LEARN is NOT proposing NEVER giving in to referendum.
* If anyone gets a chance to read the newspaper Jolinda Schreiber, who is a school board member, had a terrific letter to the editor in last nights paper. It essentially reminded us to be nice to each other, share with others the blessings we have and to keep learning by asking questions.
I won't be voting yes on the referendum but just from that one letter and because I know she is sincere in this regard she will continue to get my vote for the school board. That is the kind of letters we should've been seeing from both sides. We're still going to live in this community when this is over and it will be very sad if there are hard feelings over the way a person chooses to vote.
She is a great example of how this campaign should be going rather than the terrible turn that it took.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 01 2007,10:18 am
ICU812 agreed, great article. Busybee great post on remaining to take the high road
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 01 2007,10:20 am
I'd like to have a referendum EVERY year.Look at the discussion this has caused. Wouldn't it be nice to have this kind of involvement EVERY year?
If we had a referendum every year, problems would be taken care of IMMEDIATELY. As it is, this referendum will be pushed out 7 years. (The good thing--some of the kiddies that have been terrorized in school into telling their parents that they HAVE to vote for this, or their world will come to an end--will be taxpayers THEMSELVES--IF they aren't driven out of the community by those same high taxes that they were stampeded into promoting!)
If we had a referendum every year, we would have INSTANT ACCOUNTABILITY. Voters could come back the next year, and tell the Administration "You told us last year that if we gave you the money, test scores would go up--they didn't. You told us last year that __extracurricular activity wouldn't be cut--it was. You told us last year that if we gave you the money, kids wouldn't have to walk to school--they are. You told us last year that if we gave you the money, it would attract high-paying jobs to town--it hasn't. We aren't going to give you any more money until you fix your problems." As it is--in 7 years, most of the current administration will be retired--no longer accountable. And we will have to start educating a NEW administration.
If this passes--those in the Administration are set for the rest of their careers.
One more item--if we had an annual referendum, everybody could just keep their yard signs--think what a cost savings THAT would be!
Posted by bianca on Nov. 01 2007,11:24 am
Guest columnist apparently can't read the AYP reports of the NCLB but wants to explain it like a football game. Column: Look, Albert Lea Area Schools are not failing
By Bradford Wedge, Guest Column
Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:33 AM CDT
Some people have mistakenly labeled Albert Lea Area Schools as failing in educating our children because the results on the Minnesota Comprehensive Assessments put the district on the Annual Yearly Progress list as part of the No Child Left Behind Act.
It is probably because they do not understand what AYP and NCLB measure and what the test results mean. They seem to want to use these results as an excuse to punish the schools by withholding funding.
Somehow they think that with less funding the schools can somehow make children do better on these tests. The following may help you understand these results better. It is a complicated system, with lots of measurements and reporting, and a lot of breakouts of groups.
NCLB was passed by Congress in 2001 in an effort to close the achievement gap between minority students and the majority students, to set higher standards and to hold schools accountable.
The goal set in the NCLB Act is that 100 percent of students pass the test in 2013-2014, regardless of their learning challenges or native abilities (probably an impossible goal for most schools and districts unless you live in Lake Wobegon and all your students are above average). Each state wrote its own NCLB plan and set their own passing standard for their state tests in reading and math (there is no federal standard).
Minnesota, because of our historical excellence in education, has set higher standards and designed more difficult tests than most other states.
To make “adequate yearly progress” toward the requirement in NCLB that 100 percent of students will pass the state tests by 2013-2014, Minnesota has set yearly benchmarks. These benchmarks identify the percentage of students, of each school (Lakeview, Hawthorne, Southwest, etc.), each group, and the district as a whole, that must pass on each test. This is what the AYP represents.
The AYP is similar to a football halfback that needs to run for at least 100 yards per game to reach 1,000 yards for the 10-game season. Just because the halfback does not reach 100 yards in any one game it does not mean that he will not reach the 1,000 yard mark for the season (because the individual game goal is just an artificial benchmark for the progress towards the real goal of a 1,000-yard season).
And it certainly does not mean that he is a failure, or that he is not making progress towards the goal (every yard does count toward the goal). Each year the testing bar for the students is raised, and the schools need to meet the new higher level benchmark to meet the long-term goal in 2013-2014.
The Minnesota Department of Education does not use the word “failure,” because that is not what the benchmark represents. Instead Minnesota chooses to use the word “watch” (or “needs improvement”) in whatever area that a school, a group or the district’s students do not meet the year’s benchmark.
If an individual school, or if the district does not meet all the student group goals for two years in a row, they then analyze the problem, write a plan to solve the problem and bring those students up to the benchmark. The “needs improvement” status is part of the law, but its purpose is to help schools and districts. It is not meant as a punishment to the school (or district or an indictment of any group). It is a warning that some areas need additional effort and resources to close the achievement gap in reading and math for particular students.
The NCLB Act named the nine specific groups of students on which the AYP status is based. This helps the school or district target the group that has not met their AYP target goal to help these students and close the achievement gap. The nine groups are: all students, white students, black students, Hispanic students, Asian and Pacific Islanders students, special education students, American Indian students, limited English proficient students, and free-and-reduced-price-lunch students. To report results as a group a school is required to have at least 20 students in that group.
Under this system, if any one of the nine grouping areas does not meet the benchmark set for that year, the whole system is placed on the “watch” list. This is what has happened in Albert Lea:
2003 — In the first year of testing, all schools and all district groups and the district met their AYP benchmark.
2004 — The “all students” group of the district met its AYP benchmark. The district level “Hispanic” group did not meet its reading and math AYP, and the district level, the “limited English proficient” group did not meet its reading AYP. At the middle school, the “Hispanic” group did not meet the reading and math AYP, and the “special education” group did not meet their reading and math AYP. All other groups and schools met their AYP.
2005 — The “all students” group of the district met their AYP benchmark. The high school “free-and-reduced-lunch” group did not meet its AYP in math. All other groups and schools met their AYP. All the groups that did not meet its AYP in 2004 met AYP in 2005 (a success). Remember this required that a higher percentage of students pass the test.
2006 — The “all students” group of the district met their AYP benchmark. At the district level two groups did not meet their AYP: the “Hispanic” group in math, and the “free-and-reduced-lunch” group in math. At Hawthorne school the “Hispanic” group did not meet their AYP in math. At the high school two groups did not meet their AYP: the “Special Education” group did not meet AYP in reading, and the “Free & Reduced Lunch” group did meet AYP in math (the second year this group did not meet their AYP). All other groups and schools met their AYP
2007 — The “all students” group of the district met their AYP benchmark. At the district level only one group did not meet their AYP, the “Hispanic” group in math (the second year this group did not meet their AYP). At the high school two groups did not meet their AYP: the “special education” group did not pass their AYP in math, and the “Hispanic” group did not pass their AYP in math (notice that the “Free Lunch group that had not made AYP the last two years, did pass this year). At Halverson the “Hispanic” group did not pass their AYP in math, and the “special care” group did not pass their AYP in reading and math. At Lakeview the “special education” group did not pass their AYP in reading. All other groups and schools passed their AYP.
Sometimes we tend to focus only on the negative, those groups that did not meet the AYP benchmark. But we should also focus on the positive to get a more complete picture — in each year of testing, most of our students met the AYP benchmarks (only a handful did not). The district level “all students” group met their AYP in all five years. You cannot say the system is failing because a few groups need improvement. The majority are succeeding in District 241 based on the AYP over five years of testing (and that is a fact).
Statewide the smaller schools seem to be doing better than the larger schools, but this is partly because they do not have 20 students in each of the nine groupings (less diversity of backgrounds). Therefore they only have an AYP result in the “all students” group and have been reaching the benchmarks just like our “all students” group has.
After a group or the district has not met the AYP benchmark for two years in a row, the district has to develop a improvement plan on how it will help teachers help these students meet the AYP benchmark. This is what is occurring now for the high school (the current tests do not count for graduation at the high school now, so students are not as invested in passing as they will when it becomes a requirement next year) and at Halverson.
This is good, because our district now looks at specific groups and even specific students to see how or what can be changed or added to help these students. This takes time and person power to isolate the problem that needs to be addressed, calculate a plan to address it and then implement it. What is it exactly that will help each child learn and how many different ways does information need to be presented so that every child can understand?
If a group has not passed the test one year, the students not only have to pick up what they missed or did not understand, but they have to learn all the new material that will be tested in order to pass the next year’s test (and the district has to have a larger percentage of the children pass, regardless of their learning challenges). If teachers are faced with a student that needs extra time and effort and have more students in their classroom because the referendum fails, it will even be harder to help these students catch up.
So you can see that District 241 is mostly succeeding and improving. I know of one bilingual volunteer that is putting action into his concern for the schools and better education for the children of our community by volunteering to help Hispanic children, struggling to learn English, with their math. Maybe there is a positive way you can help with leaving “no child left behind.”
Bradford D. Wedge is an Albert Lea resident, a member of Together Education Achieves More and a supporter of public schools.
***Are they getting this spon fed to them from the district because this is not what is put on the Mn Dept of Ed site?
Does either side know where their information is coming from, because they are not putting their source in there?
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 01 2007,12:10 pm
The MEA got to the Red Star Tribune, too. 
< Link to Article >
QUOTE
We think people saw the impact of the failed levy last year," said Belle Plaine Superintendent Kelly Smith. "Our emphasis has been on trying to bring some of [the cuts] back."
Districts have started painting dire pictures of what will happen if this round of levy questions is also rejected by voters tired of property-tax increases.
Districts have started painting dire pictures of what will happen if this round of levy questions is also rejected by voters tired of property-tax increases.
They must have a copy of Scare Tactics for Dummies.
Posted by katlade on Nov. 01 2007,12:25 pm
when is a rep from TEAM going to come out with a statement condemning the behaivor of it's supporters against the supporters of LEARN? And when is the Tribune going to do a story about some of these rather underhanded tactics used by TEAM, school district employees and administration.BTW - if the administration is looking for a pay increase are they really worried about the education needs of our kids or do they have their own personal agenda? Somebody better start asking these questions and getting some answers because I personally find it appalling. And is sounds like the minister screaming at Bianca needs to have a talk with God.
I would like to know why this referendum is even a subject during classes. The teachers are supposed to be teaching the kids not advising them how their parents should vote. And this behaivor being exhibited - what is that teaching our kids. You can get what you want if you scream, threaten, blackmail, scare, and accuse others of not caring for thier kids. Oh yeah these people are really worried about the education of our children. They are really getting a good education. Shame on these people. And breaking LEARN signs. Hope someone gets caught and prosecuted. My guess is that if this becomes more public voters might figure that District 241 may not have the best ability to decide what is best for anyone.
It is a damn good thing we have the forum - if only to keep people informed of what is really going on out there. Not like the Tribune is going to cover it.
Posted by hymiebravo on Nov. 01 2007,12:36 pm
Reactions to that last letter.Kind of wordy. I can't imagine the Average AL Tribune reader actually reading that whole thing but you never know...lol
What I got out of it was that AL schools are doing fine except for that pesky government mandate thing. The only people that aren't passing the standards tests in AL are the ones that the whole NCLB thing was designed for. lol
But they didn't fail. The AL schools that
is.
I don't really see how they can change the problems they have wether the referendum passes or not.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 01 2007,1:09 pm
Apparently the bias from the Trib got to someone. There is a HUGE sign in front of the Trib that almost covers the side of the building that says among other things to vote no.The sign is huge. I was driving by trying to read what it said when a policeman pulled up behind it and went inside the Trib.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 01 2007,2:22 pm
Annual Yearly Progress Report one more time for Mr. Wedge.If you are not making AYP then a school is not making yearly progress. Do we want to stay where we are or do we want to make progress? It is JUST that simple no matter how TEAM spins it.
HALVERSON ELEMENTARY Not Making AYP
HAWTHORNE ELEMENTARY Making AYP
LAKEVIEW ELEMENTARY Not Making AYP
SIBLEY ELEMENTARY Making AYP
ALBERT LEA SENIOR HIGH Not Making AYP
SOUTHWEST MIDDLE Making AYP
ALBERT LEA AREA LEARNING CNTR. Making AYP
Now this report card can also be broken into subgroups and reading and math reports which we've posted on here. This can be verfied once again by going to the Mn. Dept. of Ed. website and clicking on schools report cards.
I still have no idea what Mr. Wedge's source is but how can I if he doesn't cite it.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 01 2007,2:40 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 01 2007,1:09 pm)
QUOTE
Apparently the bias from the Trib got to someone. There is a HUGE sign in front of the Trib that almost covers the side of the building that says among other things to vote no.
The sign is huge. I was driving by trying to read what it said when a policeman pulled up behind it and went inside the Trib.
The sign is huge. I was driving by trying to read what it said when a policeman pulled up behind it and went inside the Trib.
Is it YELLOW?
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 01 2007,2:40 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 01 2007,1:09 pm)
QUOTE
Apparently the bias from the Trib got to someone. There is a HUGE sign in front of the Trib that almost covers the side of the building that says among other things to vote no.
Let's just say I hope no one takes any letters off the sign. Especially if they're going to run for anything.
I'm sure glad there's no bias here on the forum. Where any opinion is welcome. As long as it agrees with yours.
Posted by hairhertz on Nov. 01 2007,2:42 pm
Educator Wedge doesn't need to state his sources, he's an expert. NOT!. TEAM is coming off as arrogant bullies. Sad.
Posted by katlade on Nov. 01 2007,3:25 pm
(Replicant @ Nov. 01 2007,2:40 pm)
QUOTE
(bianca @ Nov. 01 2007,1:09 pm)
QUOTE
Apparently the bias from the Trib got to someone. There is a HUGE sign in front of the Trib that almost covers the side of the building that says among other things to vote no.
Let's just say I hope no one takes any letters off the sign. Especially if they're going to run for anything.
Funny. I almost forgot about poor Gracie.
Posted by Liberal on Nov. 01 2007,3:52 pm
QUOTE
I'm sure glad there's no bias here on the forum. Where any opinion is welcome. As long as it agrees with yours.
Are you suggesting that we should all have the same opinion here?
Posted by january on Nov. 01 2007,4:07 pm
I would like to respond to Mr. Wedge, who does not understand the philosophy of No Child Left Behind and paints a misleading picture of the "all students" sub group. Mr. Wedge first of all, No Child Left Behind, became law in 2001. Its' goal is just what it states "No Child Will Be Left Behind"
Back in the day, we too had standarized testing. Right? Historically, the white non-poor kid without special needs passed for the most part. Hey, schools could say, we are helping a big bunch of the kids cause they are doing OK. So if we are helping this big bunch of kids, you may ask what is the problem? (That was the old way of thinking).
President Bush and various leaders became concerned that poor students, special education students and English as a second language students lagged far behind and were not passing the testing hence, they were the ( children that were being left behind.)
To close the achievement gap this legislation divided groups of students taking the tests into 9 different catagories. Upon evaluation of testing results the assessment showed that "all students" catagory was not an issue or a problem at all. But the 3 often sited catagories were/are. For you to imply that we are successful and wonderful and great and good because we did not fail in that catagory is a misinformation of the facts..
The three most often cited children that get left behind are poor students, special education students and English as a second language students.
The "all students" catagory is one that of course we are passing and we should just like every other school . Those students are of course part of the tesing process. But the huge focus in this legislation is those 3 groups that have been consistently left behind.
Defining success based on average student progress has long masked achievement gaps and left the most vulnerable behind. Mr. Wedge, your article demonstrates that you do not understand this progressive approach to evaluation. ( Or the new way of thinking. )
You may want to read material on KIPP schools that Busybee has provided for us. Please find wonderful information on the web about NCLB and the achievement gap.
Do yourself a favor and get your own information on this subject. You will certainly understand it better and not sound like you are trying to rationalize your points.
Mr. Wedge this is no longer 1970 or 1980 or 1990 we live in a progressive world and we cannot continue to be mirred in the way things once were.
Attempting to find excuses and place the blame on the testing assessment tools themselves really does very little but pits philosophy against philosophy. And what does that do for the students?
It has to cause confusion.
District 241 is NOT making adequate yearly progress.
ALHS is NOT making adequate yearly progress
Lakeview is NOT making adequate yearly progress
Halvorson (Title I ) is NOT making adequate yearly progress.
There is an incredible amount of time and energy being utilized to gloss over real issues and problems.
I guess I just plain don't get it.
There really is no need for some big marketing campaign. Big groups of people on this side and big groups of people on that side.
The facts always stand on their own merit.
Like Dr. Phil has said "First you have to admit you have a problem"
Minimalize it, ignore it, rationalize it , say it just ain't so ' ONLY enables it.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 01 2007,4:24 pm
January--what a great response! PLEASE--go to the Tribune site and submit it as a letter to the editor! The deadline is today.
SOMEBODY need to rebutt the "official party line." You have done so eloquently and elegantly.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 01 2007,4:46 pm
(Replicant @ Nov. 01 2007,2:40 pm)
QUOTE
(bianca @ Nov. 01 2007,1:09 pm)
QUOTE
Apparently the bias from the Trib got to someone. There is a HUGE sign in front of the Trib that almost covers the side of the building that says among other things to vote no.
Let's just say I hope no one takes any letters off the sign. Especially if they're going to run for anything.
I'm sure glad there's no bias here on the forum. Where any opinion is welcome. As long as it agrees with yours.
As opposed to the Tribune?
Engstrom must be waiting until after 5:00 today for the email I sent him.
Posted by medic on Nov. 01 2007,5:45 pm
Just put in two signs to replace the one somebody took out! It's sad teachers are telling kids how to vote instead of what they need. It makes you wonder if they get the money, how are they going to use it. They dont have it now and it seems they are teaching our kids how to vote. It seems to me that, that time could be used for math and reading. I guess what I'm getting at is, if this really for the kids, why would a teacher of a 3rd or 4th grade student put a child into this mess. Kinda puts the whole " it's for the kids" thing into the ground.
Posted by katlade on Nov. 01 2007,5:52 pm
(medic @ Nov. 01 2007,5:45 pm)
QUOTE
Just put in two signs to replace the one somebody took out! It's sad teachers are telling kids how to vote instead of what they need. It makes you wonder if they get the money, how are they going to use it. They dont have it now and it seems they are teaching our kids how to vote. It seems to me that, that time could be used for math and reading. I guess what I'm getting at is, if this really for the kids, why would a teacher of a 3rd or 4th grade student put a child into this mess. Kinda puts the whole " it's for the kids" thing into the ground.
But how can we get the word out that this is what is going on?
Posted by medic on Nov. 01 2007,6:26 pm
If they are taken down again I'll file a police report and with some luck that would make it into the tribune.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 01 2007,6:35 pm
Busybee. We may be on the same page on something. Can you tell when learn requested the use of a building and was turned down? Who made the decision?
Posted by medic on Nov. 01 2007,6:53 pm
Question? If a teacher is on the clock at lets say 1000 am and they are in a classroom "teaching" and they bring up to the kids how their parents should vote. Not only being wrong, is it not against 241 P&P? Also if they are making this class time, a sounding board to the kids. Can LEARN come in on class time and have the same equal amount of time to 'TEACH" the kids? Fair is fair right? I would dare someone to tell me this is not going on now, and that they did not do it last year!
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 01 2007,7:15 pm
Try agumbel@kaaltv.com.
Posted by january on Nov. 01 2007,7:34 pm
JimIt is too late to submit to Tribune. But hey I figure this site is pretty popular too. Did you see how many folks have visited it?
It is being watched by thousands of people...so the message is getting out.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 01 2007,7:58 pm
Sorry january, the deadline was 5:00. It sounds like the columns are filled already.QUOTE
Engstrom must be waiting until after 5:00 today for the email I sent him.
Tim Engstrom did respond back to me before that by the time index, but sometimes even the email can be slow.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 01 2007,9:00 pm
What message is that? Drove by Mal's house tonight. The sign is bright enough to get a tan as one drives by. I guess he is saying that you don't need to read to look a porn, so why should he be made to pay for someone's kids education. Up tell now I've been riding the fence, not wanting higher taxes is an easy vote! A no brainer. But one read of both sides of this sign, it will be yes, yes just for good old Mal!
Posted by bianca on Nov. 01 2007,9:09 pm
Alfy Packer-That is just so not right. It's your right to vote as you like but wouldn't it be better to base your vote on facts rather than controversy? At least that is what I am hoping for. People that will vote on facts, and not behaviors.
Posted by Liberal on Nov. 01 2007,10:24 pm
I was talking to a friend tonight that said essentially the same thing. He was on the fence until he saw the sign at the Malevator, now he says he's voting yes.
Posted by Common Citizen on Nov. 01 2007,10:32 pm
^^You know what I think... to sway any decision you make for the kids just because you can't stand a particular person in the community is idiotic and not very intelligent and I'll even add, childish. We're suppose to be the grown ups here.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 01 2007,11:09 pm
QUOTE
^^You know what I think...
to sway any decision you make for the kids just because you can't stand a particular person in the community is idiotic and not very intelligent and I'll even add, childish. We're suppose to be the grown ups here.
to sway any decision you make for the kids just because you can't stand a particular person in the community is idiotic and not very intelligent and I'll even add, childish. We're suppose to be the grown ups here.
AMEN!
Posted by busybee on Nov. 02 2007,12:26 am
QUOTE
Busybee. We may be on the same page on something. Can you tell when learn requested the use of a building and was turned down? Who made the decision?
I didn't say that specifically, so why are you asking this specific question?
What I was specifically saying is LEARN isn't into competing for the use of school buildings, students, their learning environment, school related events, etc... because it would be a poor choice and the District/Admin/Schools/Staff/Team all believe they OWN that right and the justification of their behaviors in order to WIN! It's all about power & control as far as I am concerned.
LEARN cares most about the STUDENTS and also everyone in the community having a voice in helping to determine goals cruicial in quality of education and improving the reflection it has on our community. The mission of LEARN is not a WIN at all costs by utilizing all "potential environments" involving students to the extent the other side has.
It doesn't have to cost our students anything...their time or their feelings of fear... in order to offer them security and beliefs in their schools and community to support them. LEARN has proved that.
How much do you think has been spent on campaigning for Yes, Yes referendum votes? I wonder what that money COULD have been spent on instead? Maybe sports, music, keeping a librarian...
Further, LEARN hasn't went out of their way to cause problems for the "other side," the other side came looking for them. This is why I assert the "power & control" statement. After all, the LEARN side hasn't challenged them on what they think they OWN as campaigning property rights, just their tactics. However, some from the "pro" side have challenged flyers on car windshields, signs in yards and refuse to buy the local newspaper for their printing LEARN's concept.
Greatness is earned, not given.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 02 2007,12:42 am
(bianca @ Oct. 31 2007,6:21 pm)
QUOTE
EXACTLY what I thought when I read that today. I couldn't believe it, then she has the audacity to say that SHE thought of these. Woooo-Hoooo she's cuckoo for cocoa-puffs oGood thing only one group bashes.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 02 2007,1:02 am
(busybee @ Nov. 02 2007,12:26 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Busybee. We may be on the same page on something. Can you tell when learn requested the use of a building and was turned down? Who made the decision?
I didn't say that specifically, so why are you asking this specific question?
What I was specifically saying is LEARN isn't into competing for the use of school buildings, students, their learning environment, school related events, etc... because it would be a poor choice and the District/Admin/Schools/Staff/Team all believe they OWN that right and the justification of their behaviors in order to WIN! It's all about power & control as far as I am concerned.
LEARN cares most about the STUDENTS and also everyone in the community having a voice in helping to determine goals cruicial in quality of education and improving the reflection it has on our community. The mission of LEARN is not a WIN at all costs by utilizing all "potential environments" involving students to the extent the other side has.
It doesn't have to cost our students anything...their time or their feelings of fear... in order to offer them security and beliefs in their schools and community to support them. LEARN has proved that.
How much do you think has been spent on campaigning for Yes, Yes referendum votes? I wonder what that money COULD have been spent on instead? Maybe sports, music, keeping a librarian...
Further, LEARN hasn't went out of their way to cause problems for the "other side," the other side came looking for them. This is why I assert the "power & control" statement. After all, the LEARN side hasn't challenged them on what they think they OWN as campaigning property rights, just their tactics. However, some from the "pro" side have challenged flyers on car windshields, signs in yards and refuse to buy the local newspaper for their printing LEARN's concept.
Greatness is earned, not given.
Maybe it is because I am used to some people post that learn was not afforded the use of a classroom for a meeting only to find out later that that means something else. If you don't believe either group should use a building say that. Don't say learn was not afforded the use.
How much money has been spent? Don't know but since team uses donated money I don't care. People can choose to spend ther money on this if they want.
And do you really think all people who are voting yes are members of team? What happened to liberals dad is wrong. But how do you know it was a member of team that confronted him?
Posted by caseynielsen on Nov. 02 2007,2:16 am
Why is it worded "vote yes for the tax increase"? That sounds a bit biased............. Anyway, from what I gather, it's too late to send in a letter to the editor. Is that correct? If so, that's very unfortunate, being as I just submitted a letter online about an hour ago.
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 02 2007,2:35 am
I don't know Casey. But, I'm going to go out on a limb here. Because voting yes will increase your school taxes by about 33%?
Posted by caseynielsen on Nov. 02 2007,2:56 am
Increase my school taxes by about 33%? Please elaborate.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 02 2007,3:00 am
QUOTE
Good thing only one group bashes.
You're correct, wildjim, that wasn't very nice but neither was someone using plagiarism to get the other parties view across, using kids to get their views across, threatening an older man to get their views across, busting off political signs to get their views across, a lutheran minister screaming and demanding things to get his views across, and/or any of the guest columns that have made false "claimes" but not supported their "claims" with FACT.
QUOTE
Don't know but since team uses donated money
Here you are incorrect. The district 241 pamphlets that were sent out were sent out on taxpayers funds( which is printed by the way in small print on the back of the pamphlet) that asks for a yes vote is close to $5000.00. I believe there were at least two of these, jimhanson scanned one on here and I have another one. That's at least $10,000.00 right there.
QUOTE
Can you tell when learn requested the use of a building and was turned down? Who made the decision?
I know that when I went to the school and asked Dr. Prescott for their mailing list of property owners/taxpayers that TEAM was afforded I was told that I would have to go to the courthouse and pay $326.60 for the list. But I could have gone to church offset and been charged $700.00 for the school districts list that church offset and the district has on their computers I chose the courthouse and it took from Friday until Monday to get the list. When we did get it it was on 1900 pieces of paper that we would've had to go through because anyone that even has an acre of land that is not even being used is on that list and there are many duplicate names. After we got the 1900 pieces of paper and took it to church offset to print and send we were then told that the paper was worthless and were asked if we just wanted to have them put it in their recycling box.
QUOTE
What happened to liberals dad is wrong. But how do you know it was a member of team that confronted him?
Because he and his wife both said they were.
QUOTE
Why is it worded "vote yes for the tax increase"? That sounds a bit biased
How is that biased if that is what you are doing? If you vote yes, yes your property taxes just for the District 241 portion will go from $319.00 on a $100,000.00 house to $444.00 a year. That is not biased, that is a fact.
QUOTE
to sway any decision you make for the kids just because you can't stand a particular person in the community is idiotic and not very intelligent and I'll even add, childish. We're suppose to be the grown ups here.
cover your eyes wildjim because IMO, I have to agree that this is a poor poor basis for casting a yes vote and I have a very hard time believing these people "were on the fence" until then. If that is the case then we as a community are in more trouble then just the referendum vote.
Posted by caseynielsen on Nov. 02 2007,3:15 am
(bianca @ Nov. 02 2007,3:00 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Why is it worded "vote yes for the tax increase"? That sounds a bit biased
How is that biased if that is what you are doing? If you vote yes, yes your property taxes just for the District 241 portion will go from $319.00 on a $100,000.00 house to $444.00 a year. That is not biased, that is a fact.
Well, it could say "vote yes for children" or "vote yes for students." It's biased, just like the current "vote yes for the tax increase," but it is also a FACT.
By the way, umm... nice icon? Right. Very creative. (/sarcasm)
Posted by bianca on Nov. 02 2007,3:18 am
What proof do you have that it will be used solely for the students/children? They haven't supplied any of that information.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 02 2007,3:26 am
QUOTE
By the way, umm... nice icon? Right. Very creative.
Thank you. I will be voting NO at this time and it will be because I want MORE than we presently have for the students and for the children.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 02 2007,3:31 am
Do you mind if I ask you how old you are, are you old enough to vote this year? And if you are, where are you finding out information on the referendum? Are you a student at District 241?
Posted by caseynielsen on Nov. 02 2007,3:42 am
If you would take a moment to look at my profile, since I am not afraid to hide who I am and don't choose to go anonymous as many of the users of this site do, I am 18. I graduated in June, and my absentee ballot has been mailed in. I was a member of the Student Advisory Group to the School Board during high school and was heavily involved in discussion with school board members about this referendum and the one before it.
I read the Tribune when I get a chance to pick it up from home (when I get a chance to go there, anyway) or have time to read it online.
I've been reading this forum, although I question much of what is posted here.
Posted by caseynielsen on Nov. 02 2007,3:45 am
(bianca @ Nov. 02 2007,3:26 am)
QUOTE
Thank you. I will be voting NO at this time and it will be because I want MORE than we presently have for the students and for the children.
Your philosophy really doesn't make sense. If this referendum fails, there will be much, much, much LESS for our students and for the children.
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 02 2007,4:11 am
Won't their parents have more money? Money they won't have to pay in taxes this year, next year and every year thereafter for the rest of their life. And can't this money be used by parents as they see fit? And can't these parents use this money to spend on there children's education if they so choose?
Posted by busybee on Nov. 02 2007,7:32 am
QUOTE
Maybe it is because I am used to some people post that learn was not afforded the use of a classroom for a meeting only to find out later that that means something else. If you don't believe either group should use a building say that. Don't say learn was not afforded the use.
How much money has been spent? Don't know but since team uses donated money I don't care. People can choose to spend ther money on this if they want.
And do you really think all people who are voting yes are members of team? What happened to liberals dad is wrong. But how do you know it was a member of team that confronted him?
How much money has been spent? Don't know but since team uses donated money I don't care. People can choose to spend ther money on this if they want.
And do you really think all people who are voting yes are members of team? What happened to liberals dad is wrong. But how do you know it was a member of team that confronted him?
I have been saying that I believe neither group should use school buildings, ect...
No where have I said LEARN has been refused the use of a specific "classroom." Maybe they have...I don't know.
But there have been NO OFFERS either. I know...no one needs to be accountable for their behaviors or spending, except LEARN, in your opinion.
How about you answer me this, which I have brought up before, HOW DOES TEAM GET THE MAILING LIST TO SEND OUT POSTCARDS TO CHILDREN NOT IN SCHOOL YET?
When LEARN asked for a list...what did they get? NOTHING!
I know that Team uses donations and can you for a fact prove that the district doesn't offer donations of money or information to help them push for the passing of this referendum?
Think about it.
Do you think every person who is going to vote No is a member of LEARN? Just because you think people would only be considering a No vote is because of LEARN, doesn't mean everyone else has that same conclusion.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 02 2007,8:27 am
I found this article interesting.QUOTE
There they go again.
Written by Phil Krinkie
Whenever our friends on the left are confronted with thoughts they don’t like, their first reaction is not to engage in discussion but rather attack the person expressing a differing view.
On September 14th I was invited to address about 100 school board members and administrators brought together by Schools for Equity in Education. First let me give executive director Brad Lundell some kudos for asking me to speak and offering his membership a different view of public education. That’s what I provided the group – some out-of-the-box thinking about education.
John Fitzgerald of the progressive “think” tank Minnesota 20/20 echoed the “thinking” of the left on my remarks in a piece “thoughtfully” titled, “The Ugly Truth.”
“The contrast is stark: Progressives want to help children get the education they deserve while conservatives would throw students overboard to save a few pennies on their taxes.” In his words, I “bared the heartless, ugly truth about conservative thought.”
Unfortunately, according to Fitzgerald, the “ugly truth” boils down to trying to prove I am not a nice guy. In fact, in nothing I’ve read or heard from the left, has there been any substantive discussion of my remarks. Unfortunately, nobody seems to have gotten beyond calling my remarks “heartless and ugly” and actually addressed the points that I tried to make.
I asked why if the University of Minnesota can provide quality education with class sizes of 100-200, why can’t high schools? Of course, the left immediately extrapolated that remark into “Krinkie wants ALL school classes to be 200 kids.” You’d expect more from thoughtful educators.
Think about it. Teachers and administrators are complaining about class sizes of 40 kids. But in virtually any subject, there is introductory and factual material that can be delivered in lecture format and more difficult and subtle material that requires personal involvement of a teacher and class discussion. If you look at the data from international comparisons of student achievement, the United States has some of the smallest class sizes and some of the poorest test results.
Reducing class sizes is by far THE most expensive school reform we can engage in, and it might be worth it if it produced results. But the evidence suggests just the opposite. A Hoover Institution study actually showed a negative effect of reducing class size. International comparisons back that conclusion up. Teacher quality, not quantity is a much better predictor of student performance, and yet the education establishment fights every attempt to reward better teachers.
The bigger land mine I set off was openly discussing the failure of our current special education policies, which are too focused on “mainstreaming” kids with severe disabilities that make it nearly impossible to adequately educate them in a normal classroom setting. This hurts both the special needs child and in some situations impedes progress of other students.
Instead, shouldn’t special education be “special”—actually aimed at improving the performance of the students it is intended to help? Mainstreaming children with severe disabilities or tendencies toward disrupting the classroom setting is not improving anyone’s educational opportunities. Students, who require around the clock nursing care, should not be placed in a regular class setting.
One music teacher described to me her anguish at having to keep a severely autistic child in her classroom, despite the fact that the child was so distraught that she screamed throughout the hour. Such a policy serves nobody well; neither the autistic child who is in genuine distress, nor the other students who cannot learn music with one of their classmates screaming nonstop.
I grew up with a brother who had severe physical disabilities. Everyday, my mother and father had to make difficult decisions about his care and education based on reality and practicality – Mom and Dad were not “ugly and heartless.” They were making decisions based upon the best interests of all their children. It just didn’t make sense to pretend that my brother’s needs were no different than anyone else’s, because in fact they were.
The point of all this is that when discussing education, the left will inevitably defend a broken system before it considers what might really be best for all students. The “ugly truth” is education left would rather continue to spend more or your tax money than invest its own time in out-of-the-box thinking connected to the reality of providing quality education in the context of competing resources.
< Phil Krinkie >
Written by Phil Krinkie
Whenever our friends on the left are confronted with thoughts they don’t like, their first reaction is not to engage in discussion but rather attack the person expressing a differing view.
On September 14th I was invited to address about 100 school board members and administrators brought together by Schools for Equity in Education. First let me give executive director Brad Lundell some kudos for asking me to speak and offering his membership a different view of public education. That’s what I provided the group – some out-of-the-box thinking about education.
John Fitzgerald of the progressive “think” tank Minnesota 20/20 echoed the “thinking” of the left on my remarks in a piece “thoughtfully” titled, “The Ugly Truth.”
“The contrast is stark: Progressives want to help children get the education they deserve while conservatives would throw students overboard to save a few pennies on their taxes.” In his words, I “bared the heartless, ugly truth about conservative thought.”
Unfortunately, according to Fitzgerald, the “ugly truth” boils down to trying to prove I am not a nice guy. In fact, in nothing I’ve read or heard from the left, has there been any substantive discussion of my remarks. Unfortunately, nobody seems to have gotten beyond calling my remarks “heartless and ugly” and actually addressed the points that I tried to make.
I asked why if the University of Minnesota can provide quality education with class sizes of 100-200, why can’t high schools? Of course, the left immediately extrapolated that remark into “Krinkie wants ALL school classes to be 200 kids.” You’d expect more from thoughtful educators.
Think about it. Teachers and administrators are complaining about class sizes of 40 kids. But in virtually any subject, there is introductory and factual material that can be delivered in lecture format and more difficult and subtle material that requires personal involvement of a teacher and class discussion. If you look at the data from international comparisons of student achievement, the United States has some of the smallest class sizes and some of the poorest test results.
Reducing class sizes is by far THE most expensive school reform we can engage in, and it might be worth it if it produced results. But the evidence suggests just the opposite. A Hoover Institution study actually showed a negative effect of reducing class size. International comparisons back that conclusion up. Teacher quality, not quantity is a much better predictor of student performance, and yet the education establishment fights every attempt to reward better teachers.
The bigger land mine I set off was openly discussing the failure of our current special education policies, which are too focused on “mainstreaming” kids with severe disabilities that make it nearly impossible to adequately educate them in a normal classroom setting. This hurts both the special needs child and in some situations impedes progress of other students.
Instead, shouldn’t special education be “special”—actually aimed at improving the performance of the students it is intended to help? Mainstreaming children with severe disabilities or tendencies toward disrupting the classroom setting is not improving anyone’s educational opportunities. Students, who require around the clock nursing care, should not be placed in a regular class setting.
One music teacher described to me her anguish at having to keep a severely autistic child in her classroom, despite the fact that the child was so distraught that she screamed throughout the hour. Such a policy serves nobody well; neither the autistic child who is in genuine distress, nor the other students who cannot learn music with one of their classmates screaming nonstop.
I grew up with a brother who had severe physical disabilities. Everyday, my mother and father had to make difficult decisions about his care and education based on reality and practicality – Mom and Dad were not “ugly and heartless.” They were making decisions based upon the best interests of all their children. It just didn’t make sense to pretend that my brother’s needs were no different than anyone else’s, because in fact they were.
The point of all this is that when discussing education, the left will inevitably defend a broken system before it considers what might really be best for all students. The “ugly truth” is education left would rather continue to spend more or your tax money than invest its own time in out-of-the-box thinking connected to the reality of providing quality education in the context of competing resources.
< Phil Krinkie >
Posted by january on Nov. 02 2007,8:32 am
Casey:Read with interest your posts. Glad you are in college. You will be exposed to a new and exciting world. I graduated from ALHS seems like a hundred years ago. My major in college was sociology.
I came from small town USA and for the first time in my life I was exposed to ideas that were different than what I had been taught in High School and social situations that were different than what I had been exposed to at home.
My life before college was pretty sheltered. In college, a new world opened up to me and that was the beginning of a journey in this life of discovery that changed not my core and basic beliefs but my understanding and acceptance that thinking differently or looking at alternatives is part of what being human is about.
I learned that I didn't always agree with others, but I understood and respected their right to have a different opinion, view, outlook.
It is commendable that you post and you proudly sign your name.
Many posters, myself included, do not feel they are able to do that. I know what my reasons are but I do not know what anyone elses reasons are.
Because it is a policy of this board that people can anonymously post I respect that decision.
In referring to the referendum, as we have both read many of the posters are having bad things happen to them personally because of their views.
I do not want anyone to take this to any other level.
It is commendable to own your opinion. It is not always prudent or realistic to do so.
The referendum debate has become something that I never envisioned. People have become almost militant in their stances. I have heard personally that people do not want to speak out publicly for fear of reprisals such as losing their jobs.
That, Casey just is not right. People have an absolute right to their beliefs and opinions. People have died for those rights and the First Amendment to the Constitution guarantees it.
And, finally, remember in times of controversy there have always been those dissenting persons or entities such as the underground press that anonymously helped educate and inform the masses and eventually changed the course of policies, laws, our way of life.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 02 2007,8:40 am
QUOTE
Education Funding - Is it ever enough?
By Phil Krinkie
It has only been eight short weeks since state lawmakers left the Capitol at the end of the 2007 regular session. During the budget debate there was the usual back forth regarding K-12 education funding. When the debate ended and the final budget was approved there was an additional $794 million appropriated for schools bringing the 2008-2009 K-12 funding total to $13.7 for the biennium: an increase from the last biennial total of more than 8%.
BUT IT WASN’T ENOUGH!
In a recent Star Tribune interview, the new president of the 70,000 member state teachers’ union, Tom Dooher, when asked if the 2007 legislative appropriation was enough he stated, “it really wasn’t.” The real question that one has to ask is, “Is it ever enough?” The simple answer, I’m afraid, is “NO.”
Since 1996 K-12 education funding has increased 172% with combined state and local revenues now exceeding $7 billion per year. Over the same time period student enrollment has shown little increase. The result of which is that education spending has jumped from $5,189 per student in 1996 to $8,768 per student in 2008; and that’s not even including federal dollars! So even though K-12 spending has increased by over $3 billion since 1996, local school districts still claim it isn’t enough.
Recently, the Brooklyn Center school district claimed that it will be facing $350,000 in budget cuts for next year and will ask voters to raise property taxes despite four consecutive losses at the polls for increased referendum funding. But Brooklyn Center isn’t alone. Numerous other school districts are going to the voters to raise property taxes this fall as well.
Another example is the White Bear Lake school district which will be asking voters to approve a 75% increase in per pupil funding. If voters don’t ok the $12.5 million a year levy, the school district said it may close up to five schools and make large-scale layoffs.
The list of Twin Cities school districts that will likely be asking voters to increase property taxes this fall include Stillwater, Edina, Anoka-Hennepin, Bloomington, Robbinsdale, Burnsville, Osseo and Minnetonka. Some experts estimate that up to one-third of Twin Cities school districts will hold levy referendums this fall. And despite the fact that voters rejected over 60% of the ballot questions in 2006, most school districts appear unabashed and are forging ahead to ask voters to raise their property taxes in order to feed the beast. But even if school district levy requests reach past approval levels of 60% or 70%, will it be enough? I think not.
Regardless of what happens with school district levies this fall, I’m sure when the legislature reconvenes in February 2008 there will be a loud cry for additional education funding.
But what is the likely outcome of the 2008 session? The same actors on the same stage will act out yet another education funding melodrama next spring, with the cries that more money is needed for the same broken K-12 system.
Let’s face it Minnesota taxpayers are being fleeced. They are paying billions of dollars, more and more each year, for basically the same education service they received 20 years ago. This is not to say that teachers and administrators are doing a bad job – but rather they are doing the same job. The successful economic model of the 21st century is based on innovation and competition, and our public school system today has neither. That doesn’t mean our education system isn’t changing, it just isn’t changing to meet the demands of today’s information age.
If we want a 21st century education system, we need real change: that means no more automatic pay increase for teachers; no more “prep time” for the same old lesson plan; no tenure for K-12 teachers – but rather a system that is based on rewarding results. In the end, the Legislature is unlikely to make any of these changes and will merely add additional dollars to the existing K-12 funding formula, and the cycle of “it is not enough” will start all over again.
< Phil Krinkie >
By Phil Krinkie
It has only been eight short weeks since state lawmakers left the Capitol at the end of the 2007 regular session. During the budget debate there was the usual back forth regarding K-12 education funding. When the debate ended and the final budget was approved there was an additional $794 million appropriated for schools bringing the 2008-2009 K-12 funding total to $13.7 for the biennium: an increase from the last biennial total of more than 8%.
BUT IT WASN’T ENOUGH!
In a recent Star Tribune interview, the new president of the 70,000 member state teachers’ union, Tom Dooher, when asked if the 2007 legislative appropriation was enough he stated, “it really wasn’t.” The real question that one has to ask is, “Is it ever enough?” The simple answer, I’m afraid, is “NO.”
Since 1996 K-12 education funding has increased 172% with combined state and local revenues now exceeding $7 billion per year. Over the same time period student enrollment has shown little increase. The result of which is that education spending has jumped from $5,189 per student in 1996 to $8,768 per student in 2008; and that’s not even including federal dollars! So even though K-12 spending has increased by over $3 billion since 1996, local school districts still claim it isn’t enough.
Recently, the Brooklyn Center school district claimed that it will be facing $350,000 in budget cuts for next year and will ask voters to raise property taxes despite four consecutive losses at the polls for increased referendum funding. But Brooklyn Center isn’t alone. Numerous other school districts are going to the voters to raise property taxes this fall as well.
Another example is the White Bear Lake school district which will be asking voters to approve a 75% increase in per pupil funding. If voters don’t ok the $12.5 million a year levy, the school district said it may close up to five schools and make large-scale layoffs.
The list of Twin Cities school districts that will likely be asking voters to increase property taxes this fall include Stillwater, Edina, Anoka-Hennepin, Bloomington, Robbinsdale, Burnsville, Osseo and Minnetonka. Some experts estimate that up to one-third of Twin Cities school districts will hold levy referendums this fall. And despite the fact that voters rejected over 60% of the ballot questions in 2006, most school districts appear unabashed and are forging ahead to ask voters to raise their property taxes in order to feed the beast. But even if school district levy requests reach past approval levels of 60% or 70%, will it be enough? I think not.
Regardless of what happens with school district levies this fall, I’m sure when the legislature reconvenes in February 2008 there will be a loud cry for additional education funding.
But what is the likely outcome of the 2008 session? The same actors on the same stage will act out yet another education funding melodrama next spring, with the cries that more money is needed for the same broken K-12 system.
Let’s face it Minnesota taxpayers are being fleeced. They are paying billions of dollars, more and more each year, for basically the same education service they received 20 years ago. This is not to say that teachers and administrators are doing a bad job – but rather they are doing the same job. The successful economic model of the 21st century is based on innovation and competition, and our public school system today has neither. That doesn’t mean our education system isn’t changing, it just isn’t changing to meet the demands of today’s information age.
If we want a 21st century education system, we need real change: that means no more automatic pay increase for teachers; no more “prep time” for the same old lesson plan; no tenure for K-12 teachers – but rather a system that is based on rewarding results. In the end, the Legislature is unlikely to make any of these changes and will merely add additional dollars to the existing K-12 funding formula, and the cycle of “it is not enough” will start all over again.
< Phil Krinkie >
Posted by busybee on Nov. 02 2007,8:50 am
Maddog...great article find!
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 02 2007,8:58 am
This is really good. Prepared by the Minnesota Education League Foundation. < Getting Results >< Kids First >
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 02 2007,8:59 am
(busybee @ Nov. 02 2007,8:50 am)
QUOTE
Maddog...great article find!
Thanks. Their site has been done.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 02 2007,9:20 am
january-Great post to casey, very well put. I probably would have been a little more understanding if I wouldn't have received this pm from casey
QUOTE
what an interesting find. yes, everyone, let's feel bad for the old man who was putting signs on peoples' cars, TOUCHING THEIR PROPERTY, at an ORCHESTRA concert- a school function, and expect someone-probably a parent of a child in orchestra or choir- to not get mad about it! what's getting "ridiculous and completely out of hand" is LEARN putting this bullshit on peoples' vehicles and even existing as a group in the first place. it's people like you that are ruining the future of children.
Disclaimer: This is the kind of stuff these kids/18 yo are being told. This was the concert that TEAM was handing slips out to on their way out that said vote yes, yes.
This was a concert open to the public, not on school grounds and the pamphlets that were distributed were parked cars by the hospital and central park.
And the couple in the van, was only that a couple in a van with no children in the car to see the mans poor behavior. Thank goodness.
...and why would I post what this previous student of ALHS pm'd me? Because this is the stuff that comes up anytime people speak out against something. I really don't mind personal attacks, if I did, I would've quit advocating for change in this community a long time ago. I posted this because they should be ashamed of themselves for trying to "shut people up for speaking any opinion other than their own."
For the many that have tried to "shut me up" because my name is out there (by choice) through various unacceptable means, I am here to stay and this sort of behavior only makes me more empowered to stay the course and stick to my convictions.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 02 2007,9:39 am
Thanks Tim for the chance to speak for LEARN: In todays Tribune for the out of towners or those that don't get the paper.Column: There are many ways to acquire information
By Tonya Lynch, Guest Column
Friday, November 2, 2007 9:06 AM CDT
To the members of the school board who have recently wrote in to the Albert Lea Tribune expressing their thanks to the citizens who voted them in, you are welcome. Thank you for taking the time to inform us through articles in the newspaper, television, radio, public meetings, service club and group presentations, Internet and direct mailings on the facts.
The trouble about facts is that they can’t speak for themselves. No matter how many times TEAM or our school board members say that citizens need factual information and profess to want citizens to know factual information, they still haven’t informed the public on what is actually fact and what are only claims.
Instead, they contend that the only way a citizen could be informed about our upcoming vote is either to talk to them directly, attending a school board meeting or by going to the district homepage. Why is it or what is it that makes them think that they are the only place and the only people to contact in order to get facts on education?
How many articles have been written supporting the referendum? My estimate is at least two to four articles on any given day. Where are the facts that they speak of? They “claim” that supporting a referendum could show potential businesses, physicians, teachers and etc. that the city supports our schools thus creating more jobs and bringing in more families.
Fact: In 1997 we showed our support by voting in the building of a new high school and in 2000 we opened our doors to a beautiful new high school. The census population in Albert Lea that year was 18,356. In 2007 our population estimate is 17,758. We have lost an estimated 598 people.
The source of this information is the U.S. Census Bureau and can be verified by calling or going online.
Fact: Albert Lea High School has failed Annual Yearly Progress two years in a row.
This can be verified by going to the Minnesota Department of Education and looking at District 241’s report card on the No Child Left Behind link.
Fact: Every school district is required by state law to send direct mailings with factual information to each homeowner. However, the district is not able to present facts that only persuade the voters to side with one position.
This can be verified by going to the Minnesota Attorney General’s office and submitting a question or by calling directly.
Claim: It is our social responsibility and our taxable responsibility to vote for this levy.
Source: Tom Ehrhardt, Albert Lea Tribune guest column
Verified by: ?
Claim: Baby boomers in Albert Lea are a selfish group.
Source: Albert Lea Tribune editorial
Verified by: ?
Claim: If the community does not replace this levy and increase the level of per pupil funding, many wonderful student programs will be cut. Our ability to prepare students for their next stage in life would be greatly impaired.
Source: Albert Lea Area School District 241 newsletter
Verified by: ?
Claim: Local funding needed for quality education
Source: Albert Lea Area School District 241 newsletter
Verified by: ?
Claim regarding the opponents’ group: It is easy to make comments, some anonymous, with little or no information to support the statements. It was stated that they plan to educate the public, but I am not sure what source of information will be utilized.
Source: Ken Petersen, Albert Lea Tribune guest column
Unfortunately for our community, the school district referendums are not an absolute given toward academic success or community growth and prosperity this has been proven with verifiable facts.
Here’s your assignment TEAM: Focus on what we all want for our students, our community and our future without blaming citizens who have the right to vote no. We have a right as part of this community to want better than what we’ve been told repeatedly over the years. Let’s educate and accept responsibility now!
Posted by Wareagle11B on Nov. 02 2007,9:46 am
No matter what gets cut from the District 241 curriculum the bottom line, as my wife would say, is that they will still get the education required by MN law. If this means that school district punishes the parents by punishing the kids and cutting out the more popular activities this is unfortunate but it is to be expected. The district will do just that and because of people like Tonya and Brian Bashans, and others less in the spotlight, the kids will suffer for the sake of revenge. BTW I am very proud of these 2 people as well as the others who are taking a stand in favor of LEARN.Casey I suggest you, as my old drill instructor would say, get your head out of your 4th point of contact. TEAM puts all sorts of misleading information on the walls at Southwest and yet nothing is done by the district to bring it down. TEAM members attend school functions and hand out literature and ask how parents are going to vote and again the school district does nothing to stop this type of activity. The Game's daughter, she is only 2 by the way, receives a letter encouraging support for the referendum. The Game wasn't the only one who's child, UNDER the age of 5, received one of these letters. Guess what Casey........THE DISTRICT DID NOTHING TO STOP IT!!!! All of these activities are at best despicable and at worst highly illegal.
If you wish to place the blame on the ruining of our children's future then look in the proper direction and blame the district for their lack of foresight after last years failure as well as their lack of open minds in finding other ways to resolve this funding issue.
As for the older man and the issue of the aggressiveness of the other gentleman. (I use the word gentleman very lightly in regards to the younger dumba$$ btw) The younger man was wrong for being so aggressive. A simple statement of his dissatisfaction would have been just fine. Instead he apparently let the testosterone flow and felt he was man enough that he could kick this older mans butt if the need arose. Nice move jacka$$.
Oh yeah and in case you haven't already figured it out yet Casey I am voting NO 1X since a second NO vote will not be needed and yes I have 2 children in school here in AL.
Posted by katlade on Nov. 02 2007,9:56 am
(caseynielsen @ Nov. 02 2007,3:45 am)
QUOTE
(bianca @ Nov. 02 2007,3:26 am)
QUOTE
Thank you. I will be voting NO at this time and it will be because I want MORE than we presently have for the students and for the children.
Your philosophy really doesn't make sense. If this referendum fails, there will be much, much, much LESS for our students and for the children.
I don't think you are following what is being said. We have questions about what cuts will be made and if the referendum passes what will the extra money be spent on. It is obviously more complicated than that but there is no accountability as to what is being cut, what is not being cut or what extra funds will be spent on. There are some broad statements but I think we are looking for more of a line by line explanation of why they choose the cuts that they do. We can all understand the concept that starting with the higher costs and looking for cuts that can be made and working down makes sense. The district doesn't get that concept. They is not rhyme or reason to what cuts they are suggesting and no explanation to why.
Not only is voting yes a vote for higher property taxes - that is a given and why we vote. But remember it is not only homeowners but renters, and customers that will be looking at increases.
As far as the quality of education - I think the quality of education can be mantained at a high level without all the bells and whistles. Obviously building a new high school did not make the kids learn any better than they did before. In fact why don't we take a look at Minnesota schools and prove to me that the kids attending newer schools have better scores than those attending older schools.
If anyone is an accountant or controller they will understand the concept of budgets. Everyone has to live within their budget and when the budget changes you need to make adjustments not get more credit. Costs are rising for everyone and what about our older citizens who can barely make ends meet as it is. Heating costs are rising along with groceries, home insurance etc.And guess what Social Security is going up a whopping $24.00 a month. What about those folks?
We live in a small town that is not growing like asthey would like it to grow and evidently this referendum is the answer to everything. Or so they say. Many don't believe that. It is much more complicated than that.
What we want is more transparency, less of the doomsday attitude and accountability so we can all feel comfortable about voting yes. There are many more issues involved here but these are just a few.
But I can tell you this if the referendum supporters don't quit the intimidating behaivor and start teaching during class instead of telling the students how their parents should vote this town is going to have more problems than we do now.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 02 2007,10:01 am
QUOTE
what's getting "ridiculous and completely out of hand" is LEARN putting this bullshit on peoples' vehicles and even existing as a group in the first place. it's people like you that are ruining the future of children.
Saying that LEARN doesn't have a "right to exist"? That's the thinking some of the Moslem leaders have towards Israel--"No right to exist".Or from the Nazi's--"Vee haff the 'final solution'".
I took only a short period of time before Nielson rushed in to prove the accuracy of the observations of Mr. Krinkie, as posted by MADDOG
QUOTE
Unfortunately, according to Fitzgerald, the “ugly truth” boils down to trying to prove I am not a nice guy. In fact, in nothing I’ve read or heard from the left, has there been any substantive discussion of my remarks.
Only personal attacks.Mr. Nielson also echoes the NEA/Administration/TEAM meme with this quote from Mr. Krinkie's article.
QUOTE
“The contrast is stark: Progressives want to help children get the education they deserve while conservatives would throw students overboard to save a few pennies on their taxes.” In his words, I “bared the heartless, ugly truth about conservative thought.”
Congratulation, Mr. Nielson--you have been properly "indoctrinated". As January has once again so gently pointed out--now that you are getting out into the real world, perhaps your eyes will be opened.
The "scare the kiddies" tactic of TEAM might lead people to question whether their acronym stands for "Terrorize Every Adolescent Mind."
The IRONY of TEAM getting kids to endorse the new school and the multiple referendums is that THOSE FORMER STUDENTS will still be paying for them (assuming they return to the community that spent the money to educate them, and are not driven off by the high taxes they asked for from their own parents) long after we are gone.
OR--will they simply not return? Have you ever heard the old saying of "He voted to turn the County 'dry', then left?"
Posted by january on Nov. 02 2007,10:20 am
Thank you Bianca for your last post and the information that is going on behind the scenes. How can anyone know what they don't know? All I can say is it is a sad day for our community, the families here and their children to witness some of what has been going on in the name of what is right and just.
Shame on each and every person that has been a part of this.
My children were raised to respect others, all people even those that held different beliefs and opinions.
As I have said in the past, I may not always agree with Biance but she has guts and the courage of her convictions. Good for you.
I may be older than dirt but by gosh I know right from wrong and this is just not right!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by FlyguyAL on Nov. 02 2007,10:54 am
About a week ago I asked about the voting options of no, yes no, and yes yes. I thought no no should be an option too but was told that voting no for the first question would automatically count as a no for the second. So I asked the Secretary of State Office and here is there response.QUOTE
SUBJECT: Vote Tallying for Contingent Multiple School District Ballot Questions
Thank you for contacting the Office of the Minnesota Secretary of State with your concerns. As I understand it you have questions regarding voting on multiple contingent school district ballot questions.
Minnesota Statutes §204C.21 provides the procedure used by the Election Judges for counting ballots on Election Night:
“204C.21 COUNTING BALLOTS; PILING SYSTEM.
Subdivision 1. Method. The election judges shall take all the ballots of the same kind and
count the votes cast for each office or question, beginning with the first office or question on the
ballot. They shall make one pile of the ballots for each candidate who received votes for that
office, or one pile for the "Yes" votes and one pile for the "No" votes on a question. They shall
make a pile of totally defective ballots and a pile of totally blank ballots. They shall make a pile of ballots that are not totally defective but are defective with respect to the office or question being counted and a pile of ballots that are not totally blank but are blank with respect to the office or question being counted. After the separation into piles, the election judges shall examine each pile and remove and place in the proper pile any ballots that are found in the wrong pile. The
election judges shall count the totally blank and totally defective ballots and set them aside until
the counting is over for that ballot. The election judges may pile ballots crosswise in groups of
25 in the same pile to facilitate counting. When their counts agree, the election judges shall
announce the number of ballots in each pile, and shall write the number in the proper place
on the summary statements.
The election judges shall then return all the counted ballots, and all the partially defective or
partially blank ballots, to the original pile to be separated and counted in the same manner for
the next office or question.
Subd. 2. More than one candidate to be elected; piling. Where more than one candidate is
to be elected to an office, the votes for that office shall be counted and canvassed in the manner
provided in subdivision 1 as far as practicable.
Subd. 3. Primary. At a primary the election judges shall first separate the partisan ballots
by major political party and then count the votes for each office as provided in subdivision 1.
The nonpartisan primary ballots shall be counted separately after the partisan primary ballots
have been counted.”
As you will notice the votes for each question are tallied separately. After each tally is complete all the partially marked ballots are put back in the pile and the ballots are divided out and tallied for the next question. As a result if you voted “No” on the first question it does not get counted as a “No” vote on subsequent questions. You need to vote on each question if you want your vote to count on each question. Whether the second question is considered is based on the totals for the first question. Each voter is entitled to vote on each question
I hope that this information is helpful. If you have any questions please let me know.
Brad Anderson
Election Administrator
Office of the Minnesota Secretary of State
Thank you for contacting the Office of the Minnesota Secretary of State with your concerns. As I understand it you have questions regarding voting on multiple contingent school district ballot questions.
Minnesota Statutes §204C.21 provides the procedure used by the Election Judges for counting ballots on Election Night:
“204C.21 COUNTING BALLOTS; PILING SYSTEM.
Subdivision 1. Method. The election judges shall take all the ballots of the same kind and
count the votes cast for each office or question, beginning with the first office or question on the
ballot. They shall make one pile of the ballots for each candidate who received votes for that
office, or one pile for the "Yes" votes and one pile for the "No" votes on a question. They shall
make a pile of totally defective ballots and a pile of totally blank ballots. They shall make a pile of ballots that are not totally defective but are defective with respect to the office or question being counted and a pile of ballots that are not totally blank but are blank with respect to the office or question being counted. After the separation into piles, the election judges shall examine each pile and remove and place in the proper pile any ballots that are found in the wrong pile. The
election judges shall count the totally blank and totally defective ballots and set them aside until
the counting is over for that ballot. The election judges may pile ballots crosswise in groups of
25 in the same pile to facilitate counting. When their counts agree, the election judges shall
announce the number of ballots in each pile, and shall write the number in the proper place
on the summary statements.
The election judges shall then return all the counted ballots, and all the partially defective or
partially blank ballots, to the original pile to be separated and counted in the same manner for
the next office or question.
Subd. 2. More than one candidate to be elected; piling. Where more than one candidate is
to be elected to an office, the votes for that office shall be counted and canvassed in the manner
provided in subdivision 1 as far as practicable.
Subd. 3. Primary. At a primary the election judges shall first separate the partisan ballots
by major political party and then count the votes for each office as provided in subdivision 1.
The nonpartisan primary ballots shall be counted separately after the partisan primary ballots
have been counted.”
As you will notice the votes for each question are tallied separately. After each tally is complete all the partially marked ballots are put back in the pile and the ballots are divided out and tallied for the next question. As a result if you voted “No” on the first question it does not get counted as a “No” vote on subsequent questions. You need to vote on each question if you want your vote to count on each question. Whether the second question is considered is based on the totals for the first question. Each voter is entitled to vote on each question
I hope that this information is helpful. If you have any questions please let me know.
Brad Anderson
Election Administrator
Office of the Minnesota Secretary of State
So you can and probably should vote no no, if you are so inclined.
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 02 2007,1:01 pm
If you vote NO and *blank*, it would appear your ballot is defective.Brilliant.
Remember to vote NO / NO
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 02 2007,1:17 pm
(busybee @ Nov. 02 2007,7:32 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Maybe it is because I am used to some people post that learn was not afforded the use of a classroom for a meeting only to find out later that that means something else. If you don't believe either group should use a building say that. Don't say learn was not afforded the use.
How much money has been spent? Don't know but since team uses donated money I don't care. People can choose to spend ther money on this if they want.
And do you really think all people who are voting yes are members of team? What happened to liberals dad is wrong. But how do you know it was a member of team that confronted him?
How much money has been spent? Don't know but since team uses donated money I don't care. People can choose to spend ther money on this if they want.
And do you really think all people who are voting yes are members of team? What happened to liberals dad is wrong. But how do you know it was a member of team that confronted him?
I have been saying that I believe neither group should use school buildings, ect...
No where have I said LEARN has been refused the use of a specific "classroom." Maybe they have...I don't know.
But there have been NO OFFERS either. I know...no one needs to be accountable for their behaviors or spending, except LEARN, in your opinion.
How about you answer me this, which I have brought up before, HOW DOES TEAM GET THE MAILING LIST TO SEND OUT POSTCARDS TO CHILDREN NOT IN SCHOOL YET?
When LEARN asked for a list...what did they get? NOTHING!
I know that Team uses donations and can you for a fact prove that the district doesn't offer donations of money or information to help them push for the passing of this referendum?
Think about it.
Do you think every person who is going to vote No is a member of LEARN? Just because you think people would only be considering a No vote is because of LEARN, doesn't mean everyone else has that same conclusion.
Let's see. First you post that learn was not afford the use of a school. To which I would have agreed with you was wrong had it been true. No you post that there were no offers and that is the districs fault? Look back far enough and you will find I suggested that bianca ask for a room anx even though I don't support a no vote I would have supported her right to use a room.
Then you seem to imply that I think learn is the only group that needs to be accountable. You are basing this on? I really have no problems with anything learn has done. I may agree but I don't think they have done anything wrong. I don't know who has acess to what list but I would come down on the side of making the list, assuming it is a district list open to both sides. And based on past posts and resulting facts later being different, who was asked for a list?
Can I offer for a fact that the district does not donate money? Only that anyone can acess there financial info. I would be surprised if they did but without looking I think it is wrong for you to imply it. The transfer of information? I would say yes but I don't know if that is prohibitted. I know at service clubs there is generally Dr Prescott and a TEAM member so the team member can answer and advocate for a yes vote. Then you post that I think the only reason people would consider a no vote. I did not say that nor do I think that. There were many people voting no before learn was formed. My point was just because someone behaves poorly don't assume they are a member of team or learn. Most people are members of neither.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 02 2007,1:23 pm
(busybee @ Nov. 02 2007,7:32 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Maybe it is because I am used to some people post that learn was not afforded the use of a classroom for a meeting only to find out later that that means something else. If you don't believe either group should use a building say that. Don't say learn was not afforded the use.
How much money has been spent? Don't know but since team uses donated money I don't care. People can choose to spend ther money on this if they want.
And do you really think all people who are voting yes are members of team? What happened to liberals dad is wrong. But how do you know it was a member of team that confronted him?
How much money has been spent? Don't know but since team uses donated money I don't care. People can choose to spend ther money on this if they want.
And do you really think all people who are voting yes are members of team? What happened to liberals dad is wrong. But how do you know it was a member of team that confronted him?
I have been saying that I believe neither group should use school buildings, ect...
No where have I said LEARN has been refused the use of a specific "classroom." Maybe they have...I don't know.
But there have been NO OFFERS either. I know...no one needs to be accountable for their behaviors or spending, except LEARN, in your opinion.
How about you answer me this, which I have brought up before, HOW DOES TEAM GET THE MAILING LIST TO SEND OUT POSTCARDS TO CHILDREN NOT IN SCHOOL YET?
When LEARN asked for a list...what did they get? NOTHING!
I know that Team uses donations and can you for a fact prove that the district doesn't offer donations of money or information to help them push for the passing of this referendum?
Think about it.
Do you think every person who is going to vote No is a member of LEARN? Just because you think people would only be considering a No vote is because of LEARN, doesn't mean everyone else has that same conclusion.
Let's see. First you post that learn was not afford the use of a school. To which I would have agreed with you was wrong had it been true. No you post that there were no offers and that is the districs fault? Look back far enough and you will find I suggested that bianca ask for a room anx even though I don't support a no vote I would have supported her right to use a room.
Then you seem to imply that I think learn is the only group that needs to be accountable. You are basing this on? I really have no problems with anything learn has done. I may agree but I don't think they have done anything wrong. I don't know who has acess to what list but I would come down on the side of making the list, assuming it is a district list open to both sides. And based on past posts and resulting facts later being different, who was asked for a list?
Can I offer for a fact that the district does not donate money? Only that anyone can acess there financial info. I would be surprised if they did but without looking I think it is wrong for you to imply it. The transfer of information? I would say yes but I don't know if that is prohibitted. I know at service clubs there is generally Dr Prescott and a TEAM member so the team member can answer and advocate for a yes vote. Then you post that I think the only reason people would consider a no vote. I did not say that nor do I think that. There were many people voting no before learn was formed. My point was just because someone behaves poorly don't assume they are a member of team or learn. Most people are members of neither.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 02 2007,2:05 pm
Wildjim, all you have been able to do is offer educated guesses to some of my questions, yet you don't seem to want to accept any of my educated guesses to your questions. The writing is on the wall as far as I am concerned...LEARN is much more respectful and mindful in the choices they have made in campaigning.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 02 2007,2:45 pm
Wareagle11B, thanks for the compliment on the LEARN efforts. It seems like everyone else in the group have been able to do so much more than I have been able to contribute, though.Because of fear of retribution from employers, neighbors, co-workers and customers, the majority of the people involved in the LEARN effort have had to remain anonymous.
With some luck at the polls next Tuesday, some of these people will be able to slowly reveal themselves.
In some ways it reminds me of the Norwegian resistance in WWII. When Germany occupied Norway, people wanted to rise up against the Germans, but were afraid to because they thought their number were so few.
The women started knitting red caps and scarfs for their families who would be against the Nazi to recognize each other. The Dutch did the similar thing. Soon when families went out, they found that there were so many more people who were wearing red.
The resistance was formed and...well, you know the rest.
Be sure to VOTE on Tuesday.
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 02 2007,2:50 pm
(Liberal @ Nov. 01 2007,3:52 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
I'm sure glad there's no bias here on the forum. Where any opinion is welcome. As long as it agrees with yours.
Are you suggesting that we should all have the same opinion here?
Of course not. I am suggesting that anytime an opinion is involved, there is bias. Actually, in looking at the definitions, most views expressed here tend more toward bias than opinion.
< Opinion > "1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal."
< bias > "a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice."
However, it seems like if someone expresses their "opinion" on the forum, it's their God-given right, their right to free speech.
But God forbid that a newspaper express an opinion. That there's bias in spades.
Regardless, I've said before I've given up any pretense thinking many
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 02 2007,3:58 pm
Replicant--you are correct--we aren't going to change people's opinion. Read my signature line on the bottom of the post. You are also correct that this Forum--for better or worse, IS a microcosm of the community--the same talk you would hear if you were a mouse in the corner at any cafe or social gathering. Wildjim--There is no denying the fact that the Administration DID send out the meeting time, contact person, and telephone number in their "neutral" flyer--at taxpayer expense.
There is no denying that the 6-page Administration flyer sent out at taxpayer expense DID have a decidedly pro-referendum bent to it.
There is no denying that the administration/TEAM work the speaking circuits together.
To maintain that the Administration is objective or neutral would "strain the bounds of credulity."
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 02 2007,4:33 pm
Well I guess we are at the point that nobody is changing anybodies opinion, we are just cementing the opinions we have. So lets see who turns out the vote. It is sad that voter turnout in this country has slumped to the point that a 60% turnout is thought to be a good turn out. Thank Mal for helping me make up my mind. If I am still alive come Tuesday, I will vote "yes", "yes" to screw the rich! Thank you for making that clear to me that is what I'll be doing!
Posted by caseynielsen on Nov. 02 2007,4:34 pm
"January"- Thanks for the kind words, good to know someone has them around here. I am considering a major in Sociology myself. Although college does open lots of doors, I must make a point that I may have been less "sheltered" in high school than I am now, but I was involved with SAG, attended school board meetings, and worked on campaigns and volunteered for political parties and people.I understand it is allowed to remain anonymous on this site, but it does not seem very noble of people to do that. If you have an opinion, you shouldn't be afraid to say who you are and hide.
"Bianca"- This is what I'm being told? Wow, nice way to put it. I suppose I am being "told" that since I am away at college and not home in Albert Lea to witness these horrendous actions, but I am not ignorant. I realize TEAM was passing out information after the concert. That would have been the noble thing of LEARN to do. They could have stood on the other side of the door, passing out information. Then, at least people would have a choice whether they got a pamphlet or info, instead of it being forced on them. But instead, members of LEARN chose to wait until after the concerts started, when they thought everyone would be inside the concert or gone from the first concert already. Way to be sneaky about it.
"Wareagle11B"- Yes, children may still get the "education required by MN law," but it's not going to be good education. Activities will be cut and studies have shown that children not involved in school activities (okay folks, don't yell at me, I'm not going to take the time to look at the facts but we've all heard this before
) are more likely to be involved in crime and such.Is it illegal to send a letter to a 2 year old? Please tell me where the information for that law can be found.
"If you wish to place the blame on the ruining of our children's future then look in the proper direction and blame the district for their lack of foresight after last years failure as well as their lack of open minds in finding other ways to resolve this funding issue." What is there left to do?! The citizens of Albert Lea let students down by not passing the referendum, and that could happen again this year. Governor Pawlenty does not have his priorities straight and is not providing enough funding to schools. George W. Bush does not have his priorities straight and is not providing enough funding to schools. Is the school district supposed to magically find a huge amount of money? Where would they find it?
You have children in the Albert Lea school district? Do you not care about their futures? I find it extremely disturbing that you, and anyone who has children in the school district, is voting no. Your children are your future. Maybe when they come home and start complaining about how horrible school is, if, IF the referendum doesn't pass, you will realize the mistake you made by voting no.
"katlade"- Choosing cuts is a very complicated issue, trust me. I was a member of Student Advisory Group during high school, and we got to discuss possible cuts with school board members a bit. They provide a bit of an explanation on their web site (http://albertlea.k12.mn.us/district/Referendum-2007.htm), but no final decisions have been made yet.
"jimhanson"- Yes, maybe I got a bit fired up, but I am worried for my brother's future.
"busybee"- "LEARN is much more respectful and mindful in the choices they have made in campaigning." Ah, a jokester. I guess if you consider putting things on peoples' windshields during an orchestra and choir concert (which could be cut if the referendum doesn't pass, making this situation even more rude) and risking breaking or damaging their personal property more respectful than standing outside the concert passing out information, giving people a choice as to whether they want an information or not instead of having it forced upon them.........
"Replicant"- "I'm sure glad there's no bias here on the forum. Where any opinion is welcome. As long as it agrees with yours. " Haha. I like that.
Posted by caseynielsen on Nov. 02 2007,4:35 pm
(Alfy Packer @ Nov. 02 2007,4:33 pm)
QUOTE
Well I guess we are at the point that nobody is changing anybodies opinion, we are just cementing the opinions we have. So lets see who turns out the vote. It is sad that voter turnout in this country has slumped to the point that a 60% turnout is thought to be a good turn out. Thank Mal for helping me make up my mind. If I am still alive come Tuesday, I will vote "yes", "yes" to screw the rich! Thank you for making that clear to me that is what I'll be doing!
You are voting "yes, yes" because of Mal Prinzing? I am not sure how I feel about the reasoning, but at least you're voting "yes, yes." And yes, the present voter turnout is a sad thing.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 02 2007,5:00 pm
Bb Yes I am guilty of not buying everything I read. Also guilty of not reading into posts things that are not there. Also not able to tell you for certain the district has not given money to TEAN yet you imply they have. Guilty of not condeming a large group(tean) over the actions of a few without knowing if they are part of the group. Willing to condem the poor behavior anyway. And not too surprised that a small group (and small size does not make them bad) learn has not demonstrated poor behavior. You?
Posted by Ginkgo on Nov. 02 2007,5:18 pm
You claim that it is a Fact that District 241 is not making AYP. That is not a fact at all. There are only parts of District 241 subgroupings that have not made their AYP. In every year since 2003 when the tests were first given the districts "All Students" subgrouping as passed. Most of the subgroups that have not met their AYP are in "Special Education" and the "Hispanic" subgroup. The state never uses the term "failure" because that is not what the NCLB, the State of Minnesota, or the AYP mean. You need to study the law and how it is applied, and study in detail the 52 to 54 groupings and what the AYP means. Some subgroups not meeting AYP does not mean the school is failing. There are only two times that a subgroup has not met their AYP two years in a row. Most of the times when a subgroup did not meet the AYP one year, they did meet it the next year. Those are the real facts. You are trying to distort the truth about the AYP. That is wrong, or you just do not understand it. Read the article in the AL Tribune on Thursday, then let's talk.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 02 2007,5:22 pm
QUOTE
Is it illegal to send a letter to a 2 year old? Please tell me where the information for that law can be found.
No--but obviously SOMEONE was able to get the screening information from the school district, and send a letter "to the kid" (parents)--a non-so-transparent attempt to influence them by telling them that "something" (non-specific) MAY be cut. QUOTE
The citizens of Albert Lea let students down by not passing the referendum, and that could happen again this year. Governor Pawlenty does not have his priorities straight and is not providing enough funding to schools. George W. Bush does not have his priorities straight and is not providing enough funding to schools.
Bianca is wrong, Busybee is wrong, WarEagle is wrong, katlade is wrong, Pawlenty is wrong, Bush is wrong, and the citizens of Albert Lea are wrong--but you are right. We've been through this before--school funding went UP under Pawlenty, school funding went UP under Bush (not that either of them can appropriate money--if you were paying attention in Civics class, you know that only Congress can do that). Sorry if they didn't appropriate as much money as you would LIKE, but that's reality. How much IS enough?
QUOTE
Is the school district supposed to magically find a huge amount of money? Where would they find it?
LEARN isn't against the referendum, it isn't against schools, it isn't against children, it is against the FAILED PROCESS and lack of choices. A few people decide how much money to go for, and all the voter has for choices is NO, Yes, and Yes. Those aren't very palatable. How about making CHOICES and setting PRIORITIES? How would YOU make the District ACCOUNTABLE--they haven't done well in that department.QUOTE
Maybe when they come home and start complaining about how horrible school is,
Hey, that's what kids DO. School is ALWAYS horrible. Look at the rhetoric for the school construction referendum--kids described the school as "ancient" and "falling down"--"afraid to go down the halls for fear of something falling on them."QUOTE
risking breaking or damaging their personal property more respectful than standing outside the concert passing out information
It's not illegal to place pamphlets--so any judgement anyone makes about morality is their own opinion. Break something on the vehicle? Then there is a legitimate complaint.It will all be over soon--until the NEXT referendum--and you can bet there WILL be one.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 02 2007,5:31 pm
QUOTE
I realize TEAM was passing out information after the concert. That would have been the noble thing of LEARN to do.
Noble? How and why is that? Noble is going to an orchestra concert and threatening people that IF they don't vote yes,yes they have a 50/50 chance that they could or could not see their kid in concert next year?They have said NOWHERE that orchestra WILL be cut. Notice the next time you are out that it is completely legal to put flyers on windshields. Perfectly legal and done all the time.
The difference, none of our stuff has been done on school grounds. We didn't go to parent/child picnics and bother our families during their "family time" with their kids at a school function to pass our pamphlets out or to ask how someone will vote and/or their name. How NOBLE is that? There's many more examples but if you go back through the thread you can read them yourself. Then you may also want to go back and look up the definition of the word noble.
QUOTE
Then, at least people would have a choice whether they got a pamphlet or info, instead of it being forced on them.
Forced on them? hmmmm, would that be like TEAM forcing their pamphlet at my house with two LEARN signs in the yard?
QUOTE
I guess if you consider putting things on peoples' windshields during an orchestra and choir concert (which could be cut if the referendum doesn't pass, making this situation even more rude) and risking breaking or damaging their personal property
This is just plain silly, it would be the same as TEAM pushing their pamphlet into my screen door risking breaking or damaging my personal property.
You are not here, correct? So you are getting your information spoon-fed to you. Have you gone to any other place other than District 241 to find information on the referendum? Do you realize that TEAM and the District passing out pro-referendum materials paid for by taxpayers is ILLEGAL? Do you realize that staff telling the students how to vote or getting them to paint vehicles on school time is a direct violation of THEIR OWN school board POLICY?
Nothing, not one thing has been done that is improper or disrespectful in any way, shape or form that LEARN has done. And I offer this suggestion: to be an informed voter you have to read both sides, not just listen to what you've been told. And it might also be a good idea for you to remember that to earn respect you must respect others when making a point. Otherwise most people will just tune you out once the name-calling or poor language begins. Vote yes yes, that is your right but your taxes aren't going up, you won't feel the pinch some will feel and even though that is a REAL concern for many on fixed incomes, the other piece is that District 241 needs to tell us WHAT will be cut, not WHAT COULD be cut such as your orchestra comment.
The truth of the orchestra outcome is in district 241/TEAM dialogue "could" be cut but LEARN is saying don't say "could" before we vote, tell us exactly what you WILL BE CUTTING if it doesn't pass.
Another thing, casey, don't tell us what is best for our children? Us, that have children have that on our minds every waking hour regardless of what you think.
District 241 NEEDS to make improvements on their Math and Reading scores, that's a FACT. It may not be important to you but as a parent it is to me. I would rather have my child/student be educated in school. If he/she needs to play an instrument and IF it gets cut that isn't going to stop them from playing. There's too much of an interest, people would just come up with a different plan. But we don't have to worry about that yet because as I said the district won't concretely say it will be dropped If you have a crystal ball and you can see into the future please tell us before Tuesday what POSITIVELY WILL BE CUT, not what "could be cut" because we have heard that for two months now.
You should as a voter get all the facts before you vote but as long as you already voted maybe you can do that next time.
Posted by medic on Nov. 02 2007,5:52 pm
FACT: Teachers are TELLING kids to tell parents how to vote. FACT: They did this last year. FACT: When it is 1000am and they are telling our kids this, THEY ARE ON THE CLOCK! THAT IS WHAT 241 IS PAYING FOR!!!! FOR THEM TO TEACH THIS STUFF THE LAST TWO YEARS... Wildjim, or anyone else, tell me this is and has not been done. It has being going on the last two years. Instead of filling my 8 year old with this they should do what they are getting paid for not this SS Guard s#%t. I wonder if TEAM AKA 241 have their way, all no voters are going to have to have an arm band on??? PLEASE DO NOT FORGET THE PLAN WAS TO ASK AGAIN THIS YEAR!!!!!
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 02 2007,6:11 pm
And your proof that team is handing out something paid for by tax dollars is?
Posted by medic on Nov. 02 2007,6:37 pm
MY PROOF... IS MY SON COMING HOME FROM SCHOOL TELLING ME THAT THE TEACHER SAID, IF YOUR PARENT'S DO NOT VOTE YES I'M GOING TO BE OUT OF A JOB!!!!!!! ONE HELL OF A JOB OF TEACHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT, IS WHAT YOU ARE SOME DAMN PROUD OF VOTING YES/YES FOR. SO SAD YOU CAN BE BOUGHT FOR SO LITTLE. THEY TELL YOU AND YOU FOLD. FACT: YOU HAVE BEEN BOUGHT. FACT: THIS IS BEING DONE AND PEOPLE ARE BEING PAID BY 241 FOR THIS. AGAIN A TEACHER SAID THIS TO A CLASS DURING SCHOOL. FACT: AT THIS TIME HE/SHE WAS BEING PAID TO TEACH!
Posted by busybee on Nov. 02 2007,7:06 pm
QUOTE
You claim that it is a Fact that District 241 is not making AYP. That is not a fact at all. There are only parts of District 241 subgroupings that have not made their AYP. In every year since 2003 when the tests were first given the districts "All Students" subgrouping as passed. Most of the subgroups that have not met their AYP are in "Special Education" and the "Hispanic" subgroup. The state never uses the term "failure" because that is not what the NCLB, the State of Minnesota, or the AYP mean. You need to study the law and how it is applied, and study in detail the 52 to 54 groupings and what the AYP means. Some subgroups not meeting AYP does not mean the school is failing. There are only two times that a subgroup has not met their AYP two years in a row. Most of the times when a subgroup did not meet the AYP one year, they did meet it the next year. Those are the real facts.
You are trying to distort the truth about the AYP. That is wrong, or you just do not understand it.
You are trying to distort the truth about the AYP. That is wrong, or you just do not understand it.
This has been answered over and over again on here.
Chew on this a little bit....NCLB = AYP = Tests = Scores = Total Points = Total Points Per Subgroup = Closing the achievement gap = Accountability for EVERY SUB GROUP = NO GROUP IS LEFT BEHIND
You can slap this around all you want...but...it is about closing the achievement gap and EVERYONE benefits from a goal like that!
I take great issue with your acting like it's no big deal...that it's just those special ed kids and hispanics that don't achieve high enough scores to earn their sub-group the points needed to for AYP because the group total earned points is enough.
It does matter.
It should matter to EVERYONE who is voting on this referendum because the sub-group scores affect the "all group" student scores.
Can anyone ASSUME that the NOT sub-grouped scores will continue to earn enough points to support the sub-group scores, so the "all students group" can meet AYP?
Remember the goal also is improving all scores...not just sub-groups.
The AYP target increases every year.
Remember the state of MN's goal is the same and includes preparing students to be college ready and be able to compete in a gloabl economy.
Can we assume it will be as easy to meet the AYP mark in 3 years?
5 years?
7 years?
How strongly do you feel about assuring those high school math scores with only 23% of students being proficient currently?
Will it be enough to blame it on the sub-groups?
Will it be enough to blame it on students who are believed to only care about writing their name on the test?
Will it be enough to blame the flaws of NCLB and AYP?
Will it be enough to pass this referendum rather than looking into the issue and letting the community decide if we should come up with a plan to allow more funding to improve our approach to high school math?
Can we be certain that somthing won't need to be cut 4 years down the road to develop & impliment programs to bring up the high school math scores?
Will it matter then if we pass a referendum now?
Posted by The Coach on Nov. 02 2007,8:08 pm
On Ch. 2's Almanac tonight, Sean Kershaw from the Citizen's League was a guest to discuss school funding and referendums. They are trying to present the information that citizens' want, and are looking for input too.Their website has school funding info by district, so am passing that along.
< http://www.citizensleague.org/ > is their main site.
< http://www.map150.org/schoolreferendum > is the direct link to the referendum info.
You can put in one or more districts to compare.
They also have other property tax info.
Posted by january on Nov. 02 2007,9:45 pm
Ginkgo: Busybee explained the test scores to you in a easy clear way.
I get that it is difficult for a lay person to understand.
So here is an illustration for you DIRECTLY taken from the Minnesota Dept of Education website.
DIST 241 NOT MAKING ADEQUATE YEARLY PROGRESS
Halvorson Elementary NOT making adequate yearly progress
Lakeview Elementary NOT making adequate yearly progress
Albert Lea High NOT making adequate yearly progress .
The rest of the schools did make adequate yearly progress.
I repeat if there is a failure of any subgroup then the school failed to make adequate yearly progress. Just like Halvorson, Lakeview, ALHS and District 241 did.
I have never quite understood why The Administration and School Board have not just come out to the voters and said. "We've had some pretty big challenges with some of this new fangled standarized testing and we just need to do better. We didn't meet AYP in a couple cases and we need to change that. Here is how we plan to improve but if you have any other suggestions please feel free to contact us anytime, anyplace, anywhere. We could sure use your help even if it is just your vote of confidence. "
Seems so simple and straight forward to me.
Posted by hairhertz on Nov. 03 2007,2:03 am
January 
wow, great statement, full of common sense and concise, too.
Posted by forsure on Nov. 03 2007,8:39 am
In all honesty, I will be glad when this is over and done with. I am tired of the threats and scare tactics being used to get a yes vote. I am tired of the people calling my home asking me how I will vote! Increasing the taxes does not cure the performance of either the teachers or the students! The jobs in the community are low paying, people young and old cannot afford to pay more taxes! People do not move to a community just for education folks! They move to take on a job or career that can support their family. Until Albert Lea decides to allow businesses that pay employees a decent living wage instead of all the minimum wage jobs here now, people will not move here! Oh, and by the way- My kids said the pledge of allegence in school and " IN GOD WE TRUST".
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 03 2007,9:08 am
In case some or most of you missed the warm fuzzy interview with Ken Peterson and TEAM member Margie Thorn on KSMQ a coulpe of weeks ago, here's a link. Click on the < District 241 Referendum >I think that's what you would call TEAMwork.
Posted by Santorini on Nov. 03 2007,10:02 am
It has been very entertaining reading about this referendum business online, in the paper, even on the radio & TV. I am NOT from this district but I did graduate from Albert Lea & I do live in the area.From my vantage point, as an outsider, I see a group, TEAM, passionate about their cause & seems to have used virtually any means to be heard.
Along comes an opposing viewpoint, LEARN, & this TEAM's defenses go up.
Objectively speaking, it seems (by letters-to-the-editor, guest columns) both groups want the same thing..what is best for the kids, however, the difference seems to be the definition of quality education.
It seems TEAM wants to continue along the same course while LEARN wants more and better.
Interestingly, I have not read anything from LEARN's postings, letters, etc. that attack "the person" rather than question the issue, whereas, TEAM has waged war against those not having the same view point as them.
The question of facts seems to be at the forefront of this battle.
TEAM's facts (I've seen the brochure & ads & the orchestrated interviews) are very loose at best, but it seems LEARN has searched the state for stats & no one can sugar coat those.
This has been fun to track this referendum & hats off to LEARN for maintaining composure & not falling prey to "cutting down" the messenger but sticking to the facts.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 03 2007,10:34 am
Coming from someone neutral to this referendum, I think I would have to take that as a compliment to LEARN.
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 03 2007,10:43 am
TEAM will win because, sadly most voters are not as intelligent and insightful as you are. Many old folks "do as they're told"...Well, if they need it.... If they're told to pay more taxes they feel it is their duty as good citizens to do as they're told. The experts (TEAM) obviously know what's best and they should just shut up and be good machines and just do what they're told.
This is also the reason telemarketing scammers love the area. Scammers from FL, New York and overseas will tell you that alll you need to do is get an elderly person on the phone and you can TELL them to give you their bank account number and other info and they'll do it.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 03 2007,10:54 am
MedicI assume you spoke with the principal about your concerns? If the facts are correct I would say that the teacher was over the line. But keep in mind kids listen to what is going on in the community including the home. If you don't think this topic is going to end up in schools you kidding yourself. I sure hope no one is reading this site or even talking about this, on either side, while on the clock. Smile.
If you think TEAM does not want a better education system then we have now they are getting there message out. But if this fails we will be putting in hunreds of dollars per child less than Alden and Glenville if you really believe that is somehow going to improve our schools I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you. Cash only
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 03 2007,11:35 am
QUOTE
if this fails we will be putting in hunreds of dollars per child less than Alden and Glenville if you really believe that is somehow going to improve our schools I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.
Glenville IS $384 higher than Albert Lea. What are you after--BRAGGING RIGHTS? "Come to Freeborn County--OUR taxes are higher than anybody elses"?Alden's taxes are not "hundreds of dollars more--they are $6 more. Big deal.
Owatonna and Austin spend less per student. With your thinking, we should have a whole lot of people moving from those cities to ours BECAUSE WE SPEND MORE THAN THEY DO.
LEARN simply thinks that the money can be spent smarter and better. The TEAMSTERS believe that THROWING MONEY AT THE PROBLEM will make everything all better. Sure--and having Mommy "kiss it all better" is effective, too.
LEARN has identified areas that can be cut--not to SAVE money, but to make BETTER CHOICES ON WHAT TO DO WITH THAT MONEY. Example: I have yet to hear from a TEAMSTER why it is a better choice to make kids walk to school, rather than hire a custodial service to replace District janitors.
LEARN offers choices. The only "choices" offerred by the Administration/TEAM is "Yes" or "NO." This isn't Florida--people should be able to handle more choices than yes or no. If you DON'T have the capability of making more than that simple choice, want OTHERS to dictate how things will be run, how much tax they will take from you, and a continuation of failed policy--you SHOULD vote yes. The Administration/TEAM won't give you a choice.
If you demand BETTER for our kids, if you want your TAX DOLLARS TO WORK AS HARD AS YOU DO, if you want a choice, if you want accountability, then just vote NO. Tell them to do as they did last year when the referendum was rejected, but next time DON'T COME BACK WITH THE SAME OLD THING, COME BACK WITH SOMETHING BETTER!
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 03 2007,11:56 am
TEAM is certainly getting the word out to vote yes, yes. I've heard ads on the local radio station and even on the 6:00 channel six news last night.It's too bad that with all the assertiveness and force that TEAM is projecting on the voting public, that they didn't use all that money and energy to just aim a little higher towards the same goal that LEARN has.
Of course, if they did, they would not have likely had the district administration backing them like they have done.
Posted by Wareagle11B on Nov. 03 2007,12:02 pm
(caseynielsen @ Nov. 02 2007,4:34 pm)
QUOTE
"Wareagle11B"- Yes, children may still get the "education required by MN law," but it's not going to be good education. Activities will be cut and studies have shown that children not involved in school activities (okay folks, don't yell at me, I'm not going to take the time to look at the facts but we've all heard this before ) are more likely to be involved in crime and such.
Is it illegal to send a letter to a 2 year old? Please tell me where the information for that law can be found.
"If you wish to place the blame on the ruining of our children's future then look in the proper direction and blame the district for their lack of foresight after last years failure as well as their lack of open minds in finding other ways to resolve this funding issue." What is there left to do?! The citizens of Albert Lea let students down by not passing the referendum, and that could happen again this year. Governor Pawlenty does not have his priorities straight and is not providing enough funding to schools. George W. Bush does not have his priorities straight and is not providing enough funding to schools. Is the school district supposed to magically find a huge amount of money? Where would they find it?
You have children in the Albert Lea school district? Do you not care about their futures? I find it extremely disturbing that you, and anyone who has children in the school district, is voting no. Your children are your future. Maybe when they come home and start complaining about how horrible school is, if, IF the referendum doesn't pass, you will realize the mistake you made by voting no.
) are more likely to be involved in crime and such.Is it illegal to send a letter to a 2 year old? Please tell me where the information for that law can be found.
"If you wish to place the blame on the ruining of our children's future then look in the proper direction and blame the district for their lack of foresight after last years failure as well as their lack of open minds in finding other ways to resolve this funding issue." What is there left to do?! The citizens of Albert Lea let students down by not passing the referendum, and that could happen again this year. Governor Pawlenty does not have his priorities straight and is not providing enough funding to schools. George W. Bush does not have his priorities straight and is not providing enough funding to schools. Is the school district supposed to magically find a huge amount of money? Where would they find it?
You have children in the Albert Lea school district? Do you not care about their futures? I find it extremely disturbing that you, and anyone who has children in the school district, is voting no. Your children are your future. Maybe when they come home and start complaining about how horrible school is, if, IF the referendum doesn't pass, you will realize the mistake you made by voting no.
Casey if u can show me that the School District will maintain the status as it is now and that they will not cut anything should the referendum pass then perhaps I will change my thinking and vote Yes/Yes. However since the District has offered vague and hazy statements as to what they will do either way then I am choosing to vote the way I am.
As it stands my children are receiving a quality education and neither of them are involved in anything extracurricular such as sports. This is by there choice not mine or Mom's.
The district is required to maintain a certain level of education for the kids. This is mandated by the NCLB act as well as State Statutes. This standard will be maintained whether or not the referendum passes. The district has, for the past 2 years anyway, failed to maintain the level as dictated by the NCLB. Furthermore the district has failed to follow the mandates of that act by informing the parents. I never saw a letter stating the info that is required by NCLB from the district. Why are they hiding this fact Casey? Why did they spend $30,000 or more to switch to a 7 period day when they were in a financial crunch? Why is one of the topics being discussed the switching back to a 4 or 6 period day and possibly cutting out 1 day to make it a 4 day school week? My stepson has stated that a 4 day week for him is no issue to any of the kids. The are throwing out topics that make no sense Casey and in the end they show us that they have no fiscal sense by making some of the choices they have made.
One more thing. I never said that it was illegal to send out a letter to a 2 year old. I said that at worst it was criminal but at best it is despicable. They did this because we all know what happens to mail we see as junk. It gets put into file 13 and never read. Sending it to a 2 year old will arouse the curiosity of the parents and they will look at it. Personally this is a tactic that only a desperate person, or persons, would use and apparently District 241 and/or TEAM is feeling desperate enough to use them.
Casey LEARN has some very valid points and none of the facts they bring to the table can be disputed. TEAM/District 241 however fail to bring these facts to the table and discuss them and what can be done to fix these issues before we pass another referendum. The District failed to plan after last years failure and instead Dr. Presott is on record as saying that it would be brought up again this year. Proper Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance as an author I have read would say.
Posted by Swede on Nov. 03 2007,12:36 pm
This thread has probably already answered my questions, but I need some last minute input. I’m still on the fence, but leaning to vote yes and no on Tuesday. My concern with the referendum boils down to a few questions:1. What is the logic of a seven year funding cycle? Why not three or four?
2. Has the board/administration assured the voters they will not ask for an additional referendum during the seven year period?
3. What sort of lobbying has the administration and board done during the past year to the state legislature to improve state funding of schools?
4. What sacrifices (wage freeze, wage limit increase) have the school employees offered as their part?
5. What is the total seven year referendum dollar amount?
6. Has the board/administration assured us that they will reduce the tax amount during the seven year period if the state grants improved school funding?
I would appreciate an objective answer to each question.
Posted by Santorini on Nov. 03 2007,1:29 pm
As I stated, I am new to this website.I read more rhetorical letters-to-the-editor in Fri. Nov. 2 addition. It will never cease to amaze me. These people JUST DON'T GET IT.
It's not about shifting governmental costs--micromanagement--or the price of pizza!
The fact is the Minnesota Department of Education Website lists that District 241 has failed to make adequate yearly progress. There are 3 schools in the district that have also failed to make adequate yearly progress. This is failure. I don't know how else you spell it.
Plus, I haven't seen ANY attempt by anyone to TEAM together to address this real issue or the corrective measures planned to rememdy it.
I am NOT in team--I am NOT in learn--I'm not even from this district, but I did graduate from A.L. and it pains me to see this district torn.
Yes, districts all over the state are having the same problem. But not ALL of them. I would think this community would rally together in support of meeting adequate yearly progress instead of being labeled as failing adequate yearly progress.
In addition, a comment was made in an editorial regarding the ACT and North Dakota. I don't care about North Dakota, what I do care about and Kathy Neibuhr pointed this out in her editorial, is that AL was below state averages on the ACT's. They didn't even make state averages on THIS test. What is going on??
People need to take their blinders off.
There is a crisis in the US educational system. Attempts are being made by the likes of Bill and Melinda Gates, Warren Buffet, even Oprah to address and request change. If people like this, with no vested interest, are recognizing faults you know the problem is real.
If I were to vote, I would vote NO NO until they come back with a plan of improvement.
Further, will somebody PLEASE teach these kids how to count change back instead of dumping it in my hand because a machine said to!!
Posted by busybee on Nov. 03 2007,1:38 pm
Swede,1. I honestly don't know anything other than it doesn't make sense to me either.
2. No.
3. How can I state this as objectively as I can? This is tough, but I'll give it a try. The District does offer the percentage comparisons with other districts & the state, showing they spend less than others. Yet it is not clear to me how many admin. positions our district supports compared to those others. It could very well be that our district supports more single positions and other districts have consolodated two positions into one, thus increasing their percentages on spending.
4. I can't answer that...sorry.
5. A read on how the referendum is explained & campaigned. < Albert Lea Journal >
6. No.
Posted by january on Nov. 03 2007,1:48 pm
Everyone:With almost 50,000 hits and or postings on this one site I see one thing very clearly.
No matter what happens on Tuesday...pass or fail....
The Board and the District will HAVE to address test scores.
This was NEVER brought out before or even during this referendum campaign in any meaningful way.
LEARN has been so very effective in bringing out this most important issue.
No matter how much money TEAM has to buy ads, billboards, brochures, etc. There is not enough money in the world to slow this steam engine down.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 03 2007,2:59 pm
QUOTE
1. What is the logic of a seven year funding cycle? Why not three or four?
You're right.QUOTE
2. Has the board/administration assured the voters they will not ask for an additional referendum during the seven year period?
You're kidding, right?QUOTE
3. What sort of lobbying has the administration and board done during the past year to the state legislature to improve state funding of schools?
I think Robin Brown (groan, Dem) pushed hard for increased funding this year. I think I remember reading something to the effect that Ken Peterson and Brown were at the legislature this past spring. Here's bills introduced by Brown last session. < Brown authored bills >
QUOTE
4. What sacrifices (wage freeze, wage limit increase) have the school employees offered as their part?
Many school employees belong to state unions. Education Minnesota (merger of MTF and MEA) is one of the largest unions in the state with over 70,000 members and affiliated withthe NEA and AFL-CIO. As far as administration--?? They may be set to go request pay raises, but all I've heard is speculation about that.QUOTE
5. What is the total seven year referendum dollar amount?
See Busybee's response. QUOTE
6. Has the board/administration assured us that they will reduce the tax amount during the seven year period if the state grants improved school funding?
My first reaction would be, , but if they did, they are sure keeping quiet about it.Does anyone know if this seven year bond does indeed have a sunset?
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 03 2007,3:00 pm
(jimhanson @ Nov. 03 2007,11:35 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
if this fails we will be putting in hunreds of dollars per child less than Alden and Glenville if you really believe that is somehow going to improve our schools I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.
Glenville IS $384 higher than Albert Lea. What are you after--BRAGGING RIGHTS? "Come to Freeborn County--OUR taxes are higher than anybody elses"?Alden's taxes are not "hundreds of dollars more--they are $6 more. Big deal.
Owatonna and Austin spend less per student. With your thinking, we should have a whole lot of people moving from those cities to ours BECAUSE WE SPEND MORE THAN THEY DO.
LEARN simply thinks that the money can be spent smarter and better. The TEAMSTERS believe that THROWING MONEY AT THE PROBLEM will make everything all better. Sure--and having Mommy "kiss it all better" is effective, too.
LEARN has identified areas that can be cut--not to SAVE money, but to make BETTER CHOICES ON WHAT TO DO WITH THAT MONEY. Example: I have yet to hear from a TEAMSTER why it is a better choice to make kids walk to school, rather than hire a custodial service to replace District janitors.
LEARN offers choices. The only "choices" offerred by the Administration/TEAM is "Yes" or "NO." This isn't Florida--people should be able to handle more choices than yes or no. If you DON'T have the capability of making more than that simple choice, want OTHERS to dictate how things will be run, how much tax they will take from you, and a continuation of failed policy--you SHOULD vote yes. The Administration/TEAM won't give you a choice.
If you demand BETTER for our kids, if you want your TAX DOLLARS TO WORK AS HARD AS YOU DO, if you want a choice, if you want accountability, then just vote NO. Tell them to do as they did last year when the referendum was rejected, but next time DON'T COME BACK WITH THE SAME OLD THING, COME BACK WITH SOMETHING BETTER!
Jim my post said "if this fails". Are you under the mistaken impression that the existing referendum will still be in place? It won't be and before you or someone goes down the then how come they did not ask for less see last years vote. So if this fails we will have hundreds less than if it passes. Multiply 800 per kid times 20 kids per class, which is a low number of kids, and you get 16,000 dollars per class less than
Glenville. And that is going to somehow help?
Posted by medic on Nov. 03 2007,4:49 pm
To answer your question Wildjim. YES and I got the same let's hug and eat lunch answer I got the last two times from her. She won't even follow 241 on policy on things so I'm done going to that well. Kinda like 3 strikes and your out. Thats why I said a number of posts back that they should cut all but 1 princ. and see how much that would save. Maybe then at leat all the schools would have the same operating order, for better or worse.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 03 2007,5:28 pm
MedicNo matter what the outcome is next week I would encourage you to contact a board member and ask to be on next meeting schedule and take it to the board. Posting here while not hurting anything won't bring about change to your issue.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 03 2007,5:57 pm
(Swede @ Nov. 03 2007,12:36 pm)
QUOTE
This thread has probably already answered my questions, but I need some last minute input. I’m still on the fence, but leaning to vote yes and no on Tuesday. My concern with the referendum boils down to a few questions:
1. What is the logic of a seven year funding cycle? Why not three or four?
2. Has the board/administration assured the voters they will not ask for an additional referendum during the seven year period?
3. What sort of lobbying has the administration and board done during the past year to the state legislature to improve state funding of schools?
4. What sacrifices (wage freeze, wage limit increase) have the school employees offered as their part?
5. What is the total seven year referendum dollar amount?
6. Has the board/administration assured us that they will reduce the tax amount during the seven year period if the state grants improved school funding?
I would appreciate an objective answer to each question.
1. What is the logic of a seven year funding cycle? Why not three or four?
2. Has the board/administration assured the voters they will not ask for an additional referendum during the seven year period?
3. What sort of lobbying has the administration and board done during the past year to the state legislature to improve state funding of schools?
4. What sacrifices (wage freeze, wage limit increase) have the school employees offered as their part?
5. What is the total seven year referendum dollar amount?
6. Has the board/administration assured us that they will reduce the tax amount during the seven year period if the state grants improved school funding?
I would appreciate an objective answer to each question.
Good questions. I will give you may view but I would encourage you to call a board member and or show up at a public meeting. I believe the district has one scheduled for Monday night but I am not sure of time and place.
1. Most districts have 5 or 10 year levies in place. Unless state and federal fuding really improves or underfunded mandates (or a combination of the two) are reduced the seven year levy makes some sense. I believe the some board members wanted ten years and some five.
2 and 6
I believe the way this works assuming it passes is the board can levy up to the 925 (the limit escapes me at the moment) each year. If funding gets lots better they would not have to. One thing that does not get talked about is that several times in the past the state has increased funding by paying for part of the levy. For example paying for the first 200 of levy and reducing the levy in place by 200 to avoid double dipping.
3. Not sure how active they are but a great question to ask them.
4. The numbers I have seen look like the ten year average is about 3 percent a year. Jim Hanson's wife I believe teaches so he may have a better answer.
5. Total dollars will vary by enrollment since it is levied per kid. If enrollment goes down the total goes down.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 03 2007,8:38 pm
MaddogI keep reading about all the research learn has done and yet you think it is a bond referendum. Good grief, get the basics down please.
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 03 2007,9:14 pm
QUOTE
. Total dollars will vary by enrollment since it is levied per kid. If enrollment goes down the total goes down.
Can you speculate why this is so?
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 03 2007,9:52 pm
No speculation required. The levy is not a fixed amount. It is a dollar amount per kid so if enrollment goes up the total dollars increase if enrollment goes down the total amount goes down. Most propert taxes are based on value and a specific levied amount.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 03 2007,10:14 pm
Just to bring a little perspective you may want to check out minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/08/29/aypreport/ "More than one in every three minnesota schools failed to make sufficient gains....
We can do better but I fail to see how failing to fund schools helps or how condemning our schools as some outlayer is helping.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 03 2007,10:28 pm
< FAQ >
Posted by busybee on Nov. 03 2007,11:13 pm
< Govenor's Budget Agenda for Education >If you have excel you should be able to click on the link at the bottom of the page..."How much your district would receive under the Govenor's budget?"
From what I can tell, District 241 will get a 3.7% increase in 2007-08 school year and a 2.3% increase in 2008-09 school year with a total increase for two school years at 6.1%.
Posted by forsure on Nov. 03 2007,11:21 pm
BusyBee, Do you work outside the home??? You seem to have more posts than anyone here.
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 03 2007,11:26 pm
^Are you bragging or complaining?
Posted by busybee on Nov. 03 2007,11:52 pm
QUOTE
BusyBee, Do you work outside the home???
I most certainly do. I'm a professional BUMble bee.
Believe it or not, but I also work inside the home too.
QUOTE
You seem to have more posts than anyone here.
Possibly on this particular thread, I might, but overall, I doubt it. Do you have an issue with the amount of posts I make or were you just commenting?
Posted by busybee on Nov. 03 2007,11:54 pm
QUOTE
^Are you bragging or complaining?
Was that my question or Forsure's?
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 04 2007,1:22 am
What do you think ^ means?Beep beep...here comes the TEAM short bus.
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 04 2007,4:31 am
(TameThaTane @ Nov. 04 2007,1:22 am)
QUOTE
What do you think ^ means?
Beep beep...her comes the TEAM short bus.
Beep beep...her comes the TEAM short bus.
You rode one of those Special Ed short buses, didn't you?
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 04 2007,7:46 am
(Swede @ Nov. 03 2007,12:36 pm)
QUOTE
This thread has probably already answered my questions, but I need some last minute input. I’m still on the fence, but leaning to vote yes and no on Tuesday. My concern with the referendum boils down to a few questions:
1. What is the logic of a seven year funding cycle? Why not three or four?
2. Has the board/administration assured the voters they will not ask for an additional referendum during the seven year period?
3. What sort of lobbying has the administration and board done during the past year to the state legislature to improve state funding of schools?
4. What sacrifices (wage freeze, wage limit increase) have the school employees offered as their part?
5. What is the total seven year referendum dollar amount?
6. Has the board/administration assured us that they will reduce the tax amount during the seven year period if the state grants improved school funding?
I would appreciate an objective answer to each question.
1. What is the logic of a seven year funding cycle? Why not three or four?
2. Has the board/administration assured the voters they will not ask for an additional referendum during the seven year period?
3. What sort of lobbying has the administration and board done during the past year to the state legislature to improve state funding of schools?
4. What sacrifices (wage freeze, wage limit increase) have the school employees offered as their part?
5. What is the total seven year referendum dollar amount?
6. Has the board/administration assured us that they will reduce the tax amount during the seven year period if the state grants improved school funding?
I would appreciate an objective answer to each question.
Swede,
I will try and answer the best I can.
1. What is the logic of a seven year funding cycle? Why not three or four?
The district completed a survey that help them determine the amount that could pass and the length that could pass. That data suggested both the $ amount they are asking for and the length of time.
2. Has the board/administration assured the voters they will not ask for an additional referendum during the seven year period?
No. They really shouldn't do this IMO. The referendum is based on a consistent funding from the state legislature (I do not know what %). This was also true of the last referendum. When the state froze education spending for two years, the Districts goals for education took a hit. In other words, they had a good plan, the state didn't do what was expected, and the district got into financial crisis.
3. What sort of lobbying has the administration and board done during the past year to the state legislature to improve state funding of schools?
I cannot give you specifics, but I know that in past years when Dan Dorman was the STate Rep, the Supt was able to report many conversations with Dorman. I would guess that with our current State Rep being a teacher, that the Admin probably has her ear.
4. What sacrifices (wage freeze, wage limit increase) have the school employees offered as their part?
What sacrifices do people want? When cuts are made, the staff does their best to still provide the same level of services by overloading the teachers and other staff with work that was previously spread-out and manageable. I guess I see their sacrifice as having an additional 60 students every day compared to last year (Approx 90 last year to 150 today). I am not for increasing anyones workload, I don't care where they are employed, and not giving them compensation for that.
5. What is the total seven year referendum dollar amount?
Sorry I do not know this.
6. Has the board/administration assured us that they will reduce the tax amount during the seven year period if the state grants improved school funding?
I don't think so. It has been discussed that if the tax base increases locally, that that an individuals taxes will go down.
I know that this isn't as objective as you want, but you would probably need a bean counter from the state to offer an totally objective view.
I would like to address Jim's comment about Glenville's referendum not being hundred's of dollars higher as it is only $6.00 different. That is currently correct. However, if this referendum doesn't pass, Glenville's will be hundreds of dollars more that AL as AL will not have a referendum in place after next june.
For those that want to vote no and then vote again in august, no problem except that all the cuts will be made in April or may and staff will lose their jobs, and it will be awfully difficult to hire anyone a week before school starts if a referendum passes in August.
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 04 2007,7:54 am
If the student population is declining, why is it you'd like the funding to increase? Shouldn't the budget have taken into consideration that the state funding can be "inconsistent".
I have to budget for inconsistencies all the time. Why shouldn't the district?
Posted by bianca on Nov. 04 2007,8:15 am
QUOTE
BusyBee, Do you work outside the home??? You seem to have more posts than anyone here.
forsure-
Why does it have to come to this? Why does it matter how many posts a person makes when they are truly passionate about this? His/her information is correct, he/she most often gives you links to be informed. Is there something you find threatening in that?
If TEAM has done one thing this referendum it has broken community spirit. THEY HAVE DONE THIS. They have shown that by manipulating people they can get their way. You can TRY to blame a few or you can look at the reality of this. There has been nothing but poor, poor behavior by these supposed professionals. These students, especially in elementary and in junior high should not have been part of this.
Every day I hear something that is just sooo wrong. I have never been ashamed of this community. This is my hometown, a beautiful town, with what I thought were great Minnesota nice people. What I've been shown in the last two months is that if you stand up for something you believe in that goes against the grain of "status quo" they will make you pay.
These supposed "great" educators, administrators, principals, TEAM members, board members have done the most unethical things. Many have been posted on here, this is reality folks.
The superintendent, TEAM, board members broke the law. IT IS ILLEGAL IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA TO SEND YES YES MATERIAL ON THE TAXPAYERS EXPENSE WITHOUT SHOWING THE OTHER SIDE. But hey, that's only according to the attorney general. They did break the law, granted I'm sure many of them weren't aware that they were doing this at first and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt in this. But they did do it and not one person has come forward and said that this was wrong.
Let's all vote yes yes and show them they can use any tactic it takes to get their way, even if it means breaking the law.That shouldn't matter as long as people get their music and their sports. Correct? How wrong is that?
And here's the beauty of it, THEY HAVE NEVER CAME OUT AND SAID IT WOULD BE CUT. tHEY JUST LET THE CITIZENS THINK THE WORST. Can you sit back and think for a moment how many people would be wanting their jobs, and their heads, IF they cut music and/or sports rather than an administrators job?
Here's another thing, according to THEIR RULES (our school board), they are not supposed to be taking time from EDUCATION to get THEIR political agenda across yet everyday people come on here and tell you it is being done. Vote yes yes and show them this should be allowed.
Political signs, it is illegal to take down or destroy political signs, whether they are hand-made or factory made. Yet it is being done everyday. Yesterday a woman told me that hers had been knocked down in her FRONT YARD and there were thirty-five pieces of hand-written paper thrown on her yard that said vote yes yes.
By all means vote yes yes and tell them this is an effective way to get their point across.
If this were just a few occurrences over this past two months we could speculate that this is just a few people doing this, but the reality is, that even the supposed professionals are doing it.
Do you know how many pamphlets we have put up in neutral zones, such as grocery stores, nursing homes, apartments (NOT the schools) right next to the TEAM posters so people could get BOTH sides only to come back and have the LEARN pamphlet ripped down and the TEAM poster still there.
This is "for the kids" ? NOT MINE!! District 241 you have a lot more to worry about than making excuses for the FAILING AYP reports, you are poor, poor examples to our students and children that this adult behavior is acceptable.
......and YEP, THAT'S JUST MY OPINION.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 04 2007,8:31 am
Yup, its for the kids. We like them dumb, and lacking in educational opportunities. For those who have the time and ability to home school that might not be the case, but bianca it is not just a 241 issue. It is a state issue. With the state failing to fund the increase cost of education it falls to the school districts. So if you do not want to fund the district, cuts will be made. It is that simple. Your argument that it is no, no because 241 doesn't have it perfect doesn't cut it. No, No means cuts tomorrow and coming back next year with a perfect referendum with a political agenda more to your liking will not change that. Yes, Yes might not be perfect but it doesn't accelerate the erosion of our schools. Now for Mal, if that means SCREW the RICH, so be it!
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 04 2007,8:43 am
(TameThaTane @ Nov. 04 2007,7:54 am)
QUOTE
If the student population is declining, why is it you'd like the funding to increase?
Shouldn't the budget have taken into consideration that the state funding can be "inconsistent".
I have to budget for inconsistencies all the time. Why shouldn't the district?
Shouldn't the budget have taken into consideration that the state funding can be "inconsistent".
I have to budget for inconsistencies all the time. Why shouldn't the district?
Because it only takes 9 students at the state level of fnding to pay for a teacher. Thus when the district loses 9 students, their are between 9-31 students that still need a teacher. In short, the finances of declining student enrollment drop disproportionately greater than staffing needs.
As for the district not preparing for state legislative irregularities, they did. They planed for these by having a reserve fund. However, the districts crystal ball told them that the state would give some money every year. The crystal ball didn't predict a two year freeze.
Posted by forsure on Nov. 04 2007,9:05 am
Busybee, that was just a comment.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 04 2007,9:06 am
(Alfy Packer @ Nov. 04 2007,8:31 am)
QUOTE
Yup, its for the kids. We like them dumb, and lacking in educational opportunities. For those who have the time and ability to home school that might not be the case, but bianca it is not just a 241 issue. It is a state issue. With the state failing to fund the increase cost of education it falls to the school districts. So if you do not want to fund the district, cuts will be made. It is that simple. Your argument that it is no, no because 241 doesn't have it perfect doesn't cut it. No, No means cuts tomorrow and coming back next year with a perfect referendum with a political agenda more to your liking will not change that. Yes, Yes might not be perfect but it doesn't accelerate the erosion of our schools. :deadhorse:
Now for Mal, if that means SCREW the RICH, so be it!
Now for Mal, if that means SCREW the RICH, so be it!
Excellent!!!
AND this is probably the way our Republican Governor (who I actually like and voted for) wants it. Putting the responsibility on the local level is a Republican viewpoint. I agree with the political people around town. Dem's should vote yes as Education funding is their issue. Rep's should vote yes as local control is their issue. Both political parties should be all over this.
Posted by peachtart on Nov. 04 2007,9:33 am
will someone post the voting places,,,we usally vote at the city hall, not sure if its the same for this or not..sometimes we have gone to the methodist church also.
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 04 2007,9:40 am
False.The district isn't being efficient enough and can't manage the budget properly and here's the reason.
We have educators controlling the budget. Teachers move to principles and principles move up to administrators and so on.
These are educators, not business people. The worse possible people you could possibly have managing a multimillion dollar budget. Put these guys in charge of any company and it'd go bankrupt so fast it'd make your head spin.
We need CEO's and CFO's running the finances and educators educating.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 04 2007,9:47 am
QUOTE
We like them dumb, and lacking in educational opportunities.
Apparently because that is what you are paying for with yes yes. Nothing changes if nothing changes.
QUOTE
it is not just a 241 issue.
In our referendum it is. The state is not always going to be there, what makes you think this is the only referendum we would get a chance to vote yes too?
Can you tell me what is going to be cut? Just one person tell me for a fact that something is going to be cut and then site your source. Not a very hard assignment for someone who wants this referendum to pass.
QUOTE
Yes, Yes might not be perfect but it doesn't accelerate the erosion of our schools.
Really? In what sense? Why not set your sights for more rather than what we have? Why can't we want perfect if we are paying for it and not the state? IMO, that's a lame excuse for a vote but it is your vote.
QUOTE
Thus when the district loses 9 students, their are between 9-31 students that still need a teacher.
Students from other districts who attend school in this district: 124
Students from this district who attend school in another district: 220
This is just at the senior highschool, how much money are we losing there?
Then what do you plan to do about this? yes yes means everything stays the same and right now if everything stays the same, students are leaving. There are twice as many students who leave this district than what we bring in. That's a pretty high goal to reach for, more of the same
Which equates in your book to less money. Why does less mean more to you?Yes, yes is folding in to what you have been told, all the statistics and facts from other than Dustrict 241 tells a different story.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 04 2007,10:06 am
Combined polling places for November 6 Special ElectionThe Clarks Grove Municipal Building=City of Clarks Grove, Bath, Bancroft and Hartland townships
The Hollandale Municipal Building =City of Hollandale, Geneva, Newry, Moscow and Riceland townships.
The Hayward Community Hall=City of Hayward, Oakland and Hayward townships.
The Brookside Education Center= Ward I and Ward IV
Halverson Elementary School= Ward VI, Albert Lea and Freeman townships
The United Methodist Church=Wards II, III, V, City of Manchester, City of Twin Lakes, Manchester, Pickerel Lake and Nunda townships.
Vote Tuesday, November 6
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 04 2007,10:11 am
Even USC is asking for a levy increase. They are at 642 and want to go to 1000 per student.wow, if we are to believe some posters, the city government is bad, same for the county, and the school district, and the watershed, and now the medical center is under question on another thread. If a person really believed that I have a hard time understanding why they even stay here? Perhaps there is something happening in their personal lives that makes them so bitter?
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 04 2007,10:18 am
the city government is bad,---->I am not a thiefsame for the county, ----->Gabe, Springborg, Behrends
and the school district, ---->Gimme gimme gimme---I can't control the money
and the watershed, ---->I won't tax you....yes I will, fooled ya!
and now the medical center is under question on another thread. ---->That'll be $79 for that aspirin please
It's not thinking their bad. It's called checks and balances. If it were up to you you'd never question anything and they'd rob you blind.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 04 2007,11:20 am
QUOTE
Even USC is asking for a levy increase.
Speaking of USC.....
QUOTE
To save the knowledge bowl program, Stuerman said, a volunteer came forward and offered to raise the money needed.
Imagine all the money TEAM has spent, that could have went to something like this
QUOTE
Perhaps there is something happening in their personal lives that makes them so bitter?
When all else fails, by all means, attack the person/poster, now that's a good arguement
TEAM has done it the last two months so I guess I can't blame a yes man for trying what apparently is going to work for them.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 04 2007,11:53 am
(TameThaTane @ Nov. 04 2007,9:40 am)
QUOTE
False.
The district isn't being efficient enough and can't manage the budget properly and here's the reason.
We have educators controlling the budget. Teachers move to principles and principles move up to administrators and so on.
These are educators, not business people. The worse possible people you could possibly have managing a multimillion dollar budget. Put these guys in charge of any company and it'd go bankrupt so fast it'd make your head spin.
We need CEO's and CFO's running the finances and educators educating.
The district isn't being efficient enough and can't manage the budget properly and here's the reason.
We have educators controlling the budget. Teachers move to principles and principles move up to administrators and so on.
These are educators, not business people. The worse possible people you could possibly have managing a multimillion dollar budget. Put these guys in charge of any company and it'd go bankrupt so fast it'd make your head spin.
We need CEO's and CFO's running the finances and educators educating.
Larry Kellogg is the Districts Business Manager. He isn't an educator. Due to his numerous years of experience he is considered at minimum an expert on educational funding, and at most one of the best around. Mark Stotts was here before him. He also was an expert on education funding and so much so that he was heavily recruited out of that position year in and year out. He waited until it was the right time for his family to move to a new job. I agree that teachers should teach and business people should run the business. I am certain that you would agree that most of the teacher bashing that goes on here (the explaining of what should be taught and how poor a job the district is doing) is not coming from educators. I hope you disagree with all this bashing.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 04 2007,12:36 pm
bianca...QUOTE
If this were just a few occurrences over this past two months we could speculate that this is just a few people doing this, but the reality is, that even the supposed professionals are doing it.
Another problem I am noticing is with the high school students.
I have learned quite a bit from listening to high school students thoughts/feelings about the referendum, and by also inquiring of parents, grandparents & other familly members if their student has expressed an opinion either way.
It doesn't come as much of a surprise to me when I heard from students who are actively involved in extra curricular activities, they feel very passionate about the referendum. So, passionate in fact that if any family member has considered the "opinion" of LEARN they get angry with them. If the family members do support the referendum, there is not any problems, of course.
On the flip side, high school students not involved in any extra curriculars...they basically have no opinion either way. Their family members are mostly concerned about their taxes, not academic achievement or extra curriculars.
And, a couple of high school students would be thrilled with a 4 day school week and their parents see the con's and some PRO's in that happening.
So, can I make a speculation on not only adults destroying LEARN materials, but also high school students? Yes, I can. In fact did have the priviledge of talking with a high school student who bragged about destroying a LEARN sign in someone's yard. Why? Because this student doesn't want to lose the extra curricular activity that has been threatened if this referendum doesn't pass.
Yet, one can find statistic after statistic and study after study how the U.S. high school system is failing our students ACADEMICALLY. Failing to prepare them for college. Falling behind on native born PhD graduates. Of every 100 ninth-graders, only 68 graduate high school on time and only 18 make it through college on time, according to the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education.
Once in college, one in four students at four-year universities must take at least one remedial course to master what they should have learned in high school, according to government figures.
Initiatives by the President, the Govenors of our country, our state department of education, U.S. Department of Finance, businesses, colleges and stakeholders to begin high school reform.
What have I heard as initiatives towards high school reform from District 241, TEAM, the School Board and Pro-referendumists....NOTHING FOR THE NEXT 7 YEARS except placing the BLAME everywhere else.
It amazes me that none of the above don't desire to recognize how crucial it is to focus on IMPROVING ACADEMICS for students at ALHS and help the community and students progress forward in that type of goal, instead of keeping things the same. I shouldn't HAVE to ask any of these people/groups to make some difficult decisions at this point in time, instead of keeping things the same for the next 7 years.
I'd much rather hear a high school student brag about destroying a sign because they wanted to protect academics rather than extra-curriculars. But what can I expect...they are only responding to what the adults are teaching them to value the most about their educational opportunities.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 04 2007,12:42 pm
QUOTE
I am certain that you would agree that most of the teacher bashing that goes on here (the explaining of what should be taught and how poor a job the district is doing) is not coming from educators. I hope you disagree with all this bashing.
Teacher bashing? I haven't seen any specific teacher "bashed", with the exception of the "paths for peace professor" on a different thread.I don't think people are unhappy with TEACHERS, just the PROCESS.
Teachers are as much victims here as students. Teachers are mandated to teach every Politically Correct theory du jour that comes along--"diversity", "new math", "revisionist history", every "special" history month, and every "inclusionary" mandate that anyone thinks should be heaped upon the educational system. It is a wonder that teachers have any time at all for teaching basic education!
Where does this mandate come from? Part of it comes from Congressional and State mandates--politicians caving in to (as much as I dislike the term) "special interests"--advocates for the NEA point of view. Part of the problem comes from the NEA--the teacher's union--perhaps the most powerful lobby in the U.S.--a union advocating for a constant barrage of new but untried ideas.
Is it any wonder that private schools and home schools consistently turn out better students? Is it any wonder that school districts that form "magnet schools" and "charter schools" usually show significant improvement? These schools are PUBLIC schools--with a different budget and curriculum. What are these schools, except stylized ways of avoiding mandates?
If you are really interested in educational reform, see this entry on charter schools. You will see that many of the principles espoused by LEARN are found in charter schools. null< My Webpage >
Following the "New but not neccessarily improved" curriculum advocated by the NEA (and the legislators they support) has been a recipe for disaster--in effect, dumbing down the masses in the name of Political Correctness.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 04 2007,12:53 pm
BiancaYou may want to check out the wall in the high school that lists donors. Or maybe stop by the outdoor classroom and read the sign.
Looks like learn came up with a buck or two for a mailer and seems to have gotten a mail list to use. And thanks for sending it out!
Posted by bianca on Nov. 04 2007,1:10 pm
wildjim-What exactly is the point you are trying to make?
Do you not agree that the money TEAM has spent on this campaign, even IF the extra-curriculars were cut TEAM would stand for it or do you think they would donate more of their money?
...and I hope you realize that we paid for that thus us knowing the cost it cost District 241 taxpayers. From the county assessors office we got the property owners list. This was $326.60 which I asked for from Mr. Prescott and he didn't give it to me, only TEAM was afforded that opportunity.
Is there something not quite right there either? And you are welcome, LEARN wanted to get our side out to the property owners also.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 04 2007,4:37 pm
That people here can and do donate money to schools. It is hard to dialog with you because you fail to even see the common ground. I think you should have been given a mailing list and use of a room if you asked. But I am still voting yes yes. Assuming the district provided a list as opposed to someone with the list sharing it, there is no taxpayer dollars being spent. Your outlay of 300 dollars means you spent 300 dollars.
Posted by whatthe on Nov. 04 2007,4:44 pm
All quotes from Tonya Lynch-leader of LEARN since the start of this string:*Until the school can come up with teachers that actually want to teach, and the progress is seen and not just talked about I will be voting NO.
*My opinion: Behrends and Mathiason both need to go on the county board anyone would be better than those two.
*The same with the city council, get rid of Simonson's "yes" men. IMO, Rasmussen, Olson and Marin aren't doing anybody any favors. Brooks goes back and forth but he listens to his constituents. The problem he has is that he wants everyone to get their way and not everyone can.
* And the Mayor......I still have yet to figure THAT one out. He stunk as a city council member so how did he get to be Mayor?
*Whoopy ding-dong TEAM golf clapped, now they can start writing their tax write-offs with all that money wasted on trying to manipulate people and students to vote a certain way.
*With YOUR support, we hope to continue to bleed you for every last dollar you have,With YOUR money to help brainwash the public
*I'm so tired of hearing about how overburdened these teachers are with more students. They CHOSE this occupation, nobody says it is going to be easy, but it was/is a choice that they made and if they don't love to teach and feel rewarded to see the success in their students that they were part of then those are the ones that should not be teaching our students. It shouldn't just be about the students report card it should also be about the teachers report card, if they can't teach or do the job up to state standards then move on.
*People such as yourself with your stone-age thinking is what reflects poorly on this community and definitely one more reason I will continue to vote NO.
*Simple Math people. Oh, that's right we're not "proficient in Math"
--------------
* I wonder if the school would let us meet at the Brookside Education Center in say.... room 132?
*I can't imagine that TEAM will miss that opportunity to prey on the vulnerable adults there with their "let's do it for the kids and the community" mantra.
*Ken Peterson aka peter, had the guts to come on here and post but when called out on the NCLB testing we haven't heard anything back from him. That in itself, speaks volumes to me.
*(TEAM= Teachers and Employees who Abhor money Management.)
*The fact of the matter is TEAM is like a group of highschool groupies getting together for their little "let's get together, k?" meetings to sell a very big bag of M&M's just to see if they can top last years sales.
*This isn't about finding solutions it's about a bunch of people thinking they are the "popular pack" and because of who they are or what they do they're going to try to get a yes vote whether the educational institute is held responsible or not. It's all about "saving face" after not being able to get any return for all of THEIR sacrifice for 5 years now.
*Oh Good Grief....yet more puppets on a string. Come on Dan, we know you read the forum and all you can chirp is the same old song and dance. IT HAS NOT BROUGHT JOBS YET....hello?
Then she states: When all else fails, by all means, attack the person/poster, now that's a good arguement
Bianca/Tonya-It is hard to take you serious when you on almost every post you take sharp snides at TEAM and then criticize that they are doing same. It is apparent that both sides are doing it and it will be over on Wednesday.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 04 2007,5:17 pm
whatthe- Is that still the best you can do? First and foremost I am NOT the leader of LEARN my name is out there, but I guarantee you that there are more than just I.
Yep, you posting my quotes is almost the same as vandalism, physical threats, a lutheran minister screaming at me, littering TEAM propaganda, spending at least ten thousand dollars of our taxpayers money without asking thus BREAKING THE LAW, Hawthorne school having the students paint car windows in the school day which is AGAINST the SCHOOL BOARDS OWN RULES, Not "making the grade on the AYP reports, threatening the worst alternatives possible in order to get a yes vote, having students go door to door, (elementary students) and hand out flyers, shall I go on??
You still fail to give any viable stats, proof, etc that this referendum will save our community by bringing in jobs, keeping people here or lift our failing grades.
I found it interesting with the Letters to the Editor from people from out of town. They wanted us to vote on our referendum but if the town was so great why did they leave, when the school in 1997 was going to bring in such prosperity?
Check out the opinion thread under Letter to the Editor, surprising (NOT!) that Prescott would say these kinds of things when asked about them, when all we have gotten from TEAM is a bunch of bogus excuses.
The best home-made sign I've seen yet is: Vote Yes and Save Albert Lea.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 04 2007,5:37 pm
wildjim-...and what you fail to see is that there is most definitely a common ground, otherwise I wouldn't be spending the time and effort in it. I want, and LEARN wants, what is BEST for our children, our future as a community-united, and the most for our money. This referendum does not ensure anything.
QUOTE
Assuming the district provided a list as opposed to someone with the list sharing it, there is no taxpayer dollars being spent.
There's no assuming here. It was printed in black and white on the back of the District 241 newsletter. What don't you understand about that? How can there be dialogue when you refuse to acknowledge things that have been proven?
LEARN, from the beginning has said let's sit down this year after voting the referendum down, possibly something like the community planning the city is doing now, and work together as a community and find out how the taxpayers money will be best spent for the students and the community as a whole.
Do you understand how difficult that could be now when there has been so much deception, underhandedness and their lack of taking responsibility for the wrongs they have committed? Admitting there's a problem is supposed to be the first step to recovery thus making progress
Posted by Liberal on Nov. 04 2007,6:45 pm
Maybe when the vote is over TEAM and LEARN could lobby the state to give ELECTED School Boards the ability to levy taxes just like the APPOINTED watershed boards can. It sure would save a lot of time and fighting, and it would make people pay a lot closer attention to school board elections too.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 04 2007,7:12 pm
What was printed on the back of a newsletter? I am happy to ackknowlede facts when proven. But you and I seem to have a different bar on what are facts and what is something you don't agree with. You must not have noticed I can find lots of things I would do differently than the board but that does not mean I am going to grandstand and hurt the kids in the district
Posted by busybee on Nov. 04 2007,7:47 pm
Bianca, Maddog and others who wish to remain private...thanks for all your hard work and efforts to encourage people in our community to "think outside the box." Thanks to Liberal and others who have created such an awesome place for people to share, contribute and argue about ideas involving education and this referendum.
No matter the outcome, there is no doubt in my mind that LEARN has had an impact, a positive one, even if only a few people had the opportunity to feel empowered to strive toward goals different from what has always been status quo.
For me personally, I'm not going to quit actively pursing and informing people of what I feel is most needed in our district...attention to our high school students and their academic performance outcomes, no matter how the vote turns out.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 04 2007,8:44 pm
Bianca, Maddog, and others who wish to remain private, in essences I think you are offering us a "free lunch". Just vote no, no, and something better will come along. I was with you for quite some time, being that I do not think that a property tax is the best way to fund education. As we have gotten closer to the day we vote, this "free lunch" is looking a little meatless and I am still looking for the bread. If any of you had done anything with the school district, volunteered, or work inside in some capacity, I might be willing to go a little further with you on faith, but you haven't. In the news paper I read Ms. Lynch this and Ms. Lynch that, and although there have been ideas of some merit, I just question where have you been prior to this? That question leads me then to ask, where will you be after the vote? I hope that you don't go away, but I'm not going to count on that by voting No, No and ending up with warm water for lunch.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 04 2007,9:56 pm
Alfy-...and thank goodness not everyone has your mind-set.
I mean afterall, didn't you say previously that you were voting yes because of Mal Prinzing
I might be just offering warm water for lunch but apparently it is more than you are offering or willing to take a stand for.QUOTE
I was with you for quite some time, being that I do not think that a property tax is the best way to fund education.
Forgive me if I find that extremely hard to believe when you posted that Mr. Prinzing singlehandedly changed your mind?
I truly hope others that are on the fence don't use your reasoning.....and then people wonder why this town stays stuck. Once again you don't have to like me as a person. You don't have to like Mr. Prinzing as a person but don't just "settle" based on two people. Look at the whole picture and ask yourself what you, the students, the community is getting from a yes vote and then if you want the same ole same ole it's up to you and the ballot box.
QUOTE
If any of you had done anything with the school district, volunteered, or work inside in some capacity, I might be willing to go a little further with you on faith, but you haven't.
And who "sold you" this side dish?
I worked with District 241, inside District 241 and volunteered for many school activities, fun nights, pancake breakfasts, dances, etc and there's a lot of things that are wrong with the system. Have you?
Posted by busybee on Nov. 04 2007,10:00 pm
QUOTE
As we have gotten closer to the day we vote, this "free lunch" is looking a little meatless and I am still looking for the bread.
Yeah, I guess it is difficult for many to envision a community along with the District, School Board, etc... working together...setting priorities, establishing goals and actively participating in educational outcomes for the betterment of our students and community.
QUOTE
If any of you had done anything with the school district, volunteered, or work inside in some capacity, I might be willing to go a little further with you on faith, but you haven't.
So, unless a person is directly related to education in District 241, they can have no credibility, no inspiration, no involvement in determining anything other than voting on the choices made by a few?
Last I knew, there are more parents, grandparents, business owners, and people in our community than there are District employees, school volunteers etc... These are the stakeholders who invest the most, yet have the least say in what they get to invest in.
Maybe others just don't care to take the time or focus as much as me when it comes to leading a community and our students to value academic achievement FIRST and proving funding for that, BEFORE anything else not specifically relevant is a value of our quality of education.
But, what do I know, I'm only a teacher who has electively chosen not to teach at this time.
QUOTE
That question leads me then to ask, where will you be after the vote?
That is a valid question. And, another valid question would be...where will our community members be? Will they just walk away and have faith that everything will be okay now that it passed? That the improvements in academics will grow & prosper over the next 7 years? Or, if it fails, will community members walk away and wait again until next year, letting those same few decide what the priorities and goals will be next time?
Whether or not LEARN will develop into something more than just a "thorn" in the District's and Team's side, will depend more upon the community than Bianca, Maddog or other members who wish to be private at this time.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,6:42 am
QUOTE
What was printed on the back of a newsletter? I am happy to ackknowlede facts when proven. But you and I seem to have a different bar on what are facts and what is something you don't agree with.
wildjim- you had posted that you have received the LEARN pamphlet and this info was on it but I will address this once again if you would like to try to dispute it. I would be interested to know how TEAM or yes voters condone and/or or excuse this behavior.
District 241 used taxpayers funds to send out a newsletter encouraging a yes vote. This is typed on the back of the newsletter which jimhanson had scanned as proof on this thread. The Minnesota Attorney Generals Office is who says this. What "bar" are "your" facts based on?
The Attorney General states that “the public funds entrusted to the board belong equally to the proponents and opponents of the proposition,” and the use of the funds to pay not just for the presentation of facts only, but also to persuade the voters to side with one position only, is not a proper use of public funds.
Here is another proven fact:
District 241 Policy 8020 relates to the “Use of Instructional Settings to Promote Private Interests” and states:
“The School Board affirms its belief that instructional settings shall be totally dedicated to appropriate teaching and learning and such processes shall relate to approved school programs and curricula. Therefore, it is the policy of the School Board that school employees shall not use instructional settings as a forum to discuss or develop support in the areas of labor disputes, collective bargaining, work stoppages and/or other matters relating to conditions of employment. The School Board further prohibits disruptive display of buttons, signs, insignia, symbols, or other materials by school employees in school buildings related to labor disputes or conditions of employment since such displays tend to disrupt instruction.”
Telling a student that they may not be there the next year if their parents don’t vote yes is using an instructional setting to discuss “a condition of employment.”
QUOTE
I am going to grandstand and hurt the kids in the district
Who is hurting the kids? By the way this campaign was ran, TEAM is who should be ashamed of themselves with getting the kids involved at the elementary level and the junior high. In highschool it could be seen possibly as some kind of learning experience if they are "teaching" both sides.
Now will you be willing to give your facts and not just something you don't agree with on how the kids in the district ARE, not "could" get hurt, going to be hurt in the district from a NO vote? And also if you would give your source, that would be helpful. Thank you.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 05 2007,6:47 am
QUOTE
You must not have noticed I can find lots of things I would do differently than the board but that does not mean I am going to grandstand and hurt the kids in the district
Directly from the district website...
What will happen if the levy referendum fails?
nThe two million dollar reduction process for the 2008-2009 school year, that has already been started, will be completed. The School Board and administration, with input from advisory committees, staff and community, will need to complete this task by March 2008.
We've already cut a million...right?
We have a million to go....right?
Out of 32 potential cuts...this is what is focused on as being cut if it doesn't pass...and saved if it does...from the district website...
What will the money from this referendum be used for?
nReduce class sizes, especially at the lower elementary level
nRestore elementary bussing to the one mile limit
nContinue to improve student academic success in reading, math and science
nKeep the All-Day-Every Day Kindergarten program
nKeep all four elementary buildings open as dictated by enrollment
nKeep our music and athletic programs strong
nKeep student technology up to-date
nAllow our students daily access to our libraries
Seriously, out of 32 cuts/reductions/changes...1 million left...and we can't come up with anything better to IMPROVE our district with a referendum?
Who is grandstanding?
Posted by Madd Max on Nov. 05 2007,8:13 am
I hope that everyone has this much energy this winter when the legislature is in session. We need to send a message loud and clear to the Governor that a lot more needs to be done in the way of funding for education. I want people to remember that there was a good education bill sent to T-Paws desk last spring that he vetoed. Our children and grandchildren deserve a quality education. I also believe that it is time that the federal and state governments when mandating programs like no child left behind be required to fund these programs. Not say you have to do this way, and then refuse to fund the program.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 05 2007,8:17 am
Wildjim & BiancaWould THIS be the envelope mailed to property owners at taxpayer expense, with the TEAM contact information, personnel, and meeting place (the school) and time?
Sorry the scan didn't transfer well to Ikonboard--the paragraph says
QUOTE
"State law requires that this information be mailed first class to every property owner in School District No. 241"
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 05 2007,8:26 am
So the best answer is to say, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!" Might work if your kids are grown, and you don't have any grandkids in the district. Excuse me if I think it looks sallow. I'm not opposed to change, in fact I think that the discussion here would indicate some is warrented. I just question the results that a No! No! vote would produce is in the area's best interest. It does look like shock and aw works all that well elsewhere in the world either, but if you feel it is the best solution for the district, I hope you have a plan for after you get done giving them hell.
Posted by samsdad on Nov. 05 2007,8:40 am
Did anyone see the "Boo Hoo","Sob Sob" Fourm on Ch 6 Yesterday. Completly Team. Everyone else is of no concequence.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,8:46 am
There is absolutely nothing wrong in voting NO. There has been absolutely no proof to indicate something bad will happen. The sky is not falling.
Voting No doesn't mean the kids are going to get hurt, it doesn't mean the community is going to fall apart, it doesn't mean sports will be cut, it doesn't mean music will be cut. There has been nothing to support this claim other than them saying it "could" happen.
I, along with others that are voting no have children/and or grandchildren in the district that we ARE thinking about.
QUOTE
but if you feel it is the best solution for the district, I hope you have a plan for after you get done giving them hell.
That is If wanting them held accountable and taking responsibility for their actions is "giving them hell" in your book.
What would you suggest for a plan?
We already have stated that we want community dialogue and to work together on a plan that will work and come back next year and ask again after other options have been looked at.....Maybe something like the community planning shops the city is doing with citizens to work on what will be most important to the majority for the future of the school, community, local economy, and most of all our students.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 05 2007,8:49 am
So why didn't you get involved last year?
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,8:59 am
Why is it that I continue to answer these questions put forth but you feel you can avoid questions asked of you?I am a single-parent, I was going to school full-time to support my family by becoming a nurse. In my spare time I was part of the Minnesota Parent Leadership Network advocating for mental health needs/special ed services for children and was also on the governors council for Mental Health.
Were you involved last year?
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 05 2007,9:05 am
Yes I am, and no I'm not a TEAM member.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 05 2007,9:16 am
I floated back to the post Jim made some time ago.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 05 2007,9:20 am
Notice to lower right corner.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,9:43 am
What was accomplished while you were working on this last year?What have you worked on that warrants a yes vote?
If the referendum fails...
QUOTE
What would you suggest for a plan?
Posted by This is my real name on Nov. 05 2007,9:45 am
Did anyone notice the flourescent pink pro-referendum signs attached to telephone poles around town (which, by the way is illegal)?There's one on the corner of Fountain and Ermina that reads, "If you're going to vote NO, don't vote at all."
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 05 2007,10:10 am
You are correct. No political sign may be affixed to any government property.QUOTE
"If you're going to vote NO, don't vote at all."
You have got to be kidding. Is there a disclaimer stating who funded this?
Can someone get down and get a picture of this?
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,10:26 am
They are all over affixed to poles, there's one over by the fairgrounds/museum that says:Vote yes to save Albert Lea
(Dire straights)Another one further up on Bridge across from the apartments that says that same thing as this is my real name posted:
If you are voting No, Don't vote at all.
They've been there all weekend. The rules don't apply to everyone, you guys should know that by now.
Posted by GEOKARJO on Nov. 05 2007,10:39 am
(This is my real name @ Nov. 05 2007,9:45 am)
QUOTE
Did anyone notice the flourescent pink pro-referendum signs attached to telephone poles around town (which, by the way is illegal)?
There's one on the corner of Fountain and Ermina that reads, "If you're going to vote NO, don't vote at all."
There's one on the corner of Fountain and Ermina that reads, "If you're going to vote NO, don't vote at all."
Not voting is the same as a yes, yes vote. Just to clarify that.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 05 2007,11:24 am
The same rules apply. Not sure who put them up but I would think that if they are not allowed to be they anyone could take them down. And while I disagree with the don't vote sign I think the person is within their rights to put the sign up.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 05 2007,12:12 pm
QUOTE
I would think that if they are not allowed to be they anyone could take them down. And while I disagree with the don't vote sign I think the person is within their rights to put the sign up.
What kind of convoluted logic is THAT? You ARE a TEAMSTER, aren't you? Letting someone ELSE do the thinking is easier than thinking for yourself.
Posted by katlade on Nov. 05 2007,12:37 pm
Has anyone made a complaint the law enforcement about the signs? If is is illegal it is illegal or are we going to bring to Vicky Simonsen to see if it is illegal? What I would like to know is why the desperation with all these questionable tactics? If they think they have a good campaign and have been clear about the reasons for voting yes you would think they would not have to stoop as low as they have been. As far as I am concerned every teacher that has encouraged students to go home to tell parents how to vote should be disciplined.
I received my pamphlet from LEARN this week-end and it doesn't sound like LEARN was treated fairly in trying to get their point across. What can be done about that?
Posted by busybee on Nov. 05 2007,12:48 pm
QUOTE
They are all over affixed to poles, there's one over by the fairgrounds/museum that says:
Vote yes to save Albert Lea (Dire straights)
Another one further up on Bridge across from the apartments that says that same thing as this is my real name posted:
If you are voting No, Don't vote at all.
They've been there all weekend.
Vote yes to save Albert Lea (Dire straights)
Another one further up on Bridge across from the apartments that says that same thing as this is my real name posted:
If you are voting No, Don't vote at all.
They've been there all weekend.
Yikes...don't vote at all! Nice, how very nice of them to continue proving a point that is so obvious. And people actually believe they are capable of knowing whether or not this is the best referendum we can offer our students, educational staff and community at this time? HELLO! If they don't even think people who have a different vision in this have a right to vote...that clearly says enough.
Has there ever been this much PUSH for a YES, YES referendum, or possibly this much "donated funds"
to cover the expenses? I'm beginning to question if ...LEARN has them just a "little bit" worried.
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 05 2007,1:17 pm
What I’ve concluded about the referendum:I’ve been back and forth on this, but I believe I will vote Yes-Yes, even though I feel school funding is flawed. I am not willing to risk the education of children just because state funding is screwed up, and the Albert Lea district could have approached the referendum question in a more
positive manner (i.e. I don’t like the threat approach more than anyone else.)
Our district is not top-heavy in administration; the cost percentage makes that clear in comparison to other districts.
I really don’t want to see another school closed, I do think we have lost too many of the neighborhood schools (Ramsey, Oakwood, Northside, Hayward, Clarks Grove, Hollandale, etc.) already. Maybe it’s inevitable but I’m not
convinced that time is now.
Although I question how the amounts were arrived at for questions 1 and 2, it would not put us at an inordinate amount of local funding via referendum compared to other districts. Until state funding is fixed, or control is returned to local districts, we have little choice but to add local money. We don't live in a vacuum, especially with open-enrollment.
Although some feel that citizens have no input to the process, it seems there are plenty of opportunities to get involved – attending school board meetings or getting on one of the many committees which are involved. There is in fact a “Budget Advisory Committee” if you read Terri Wichmann’s column on 10/29:
< http://www.albertleatribune.com/article....on3.txt >
If anything, the district perhaps has failed to make clear how much citizen input they do have. The committee that I hear the most about is the one for Curriculum.
I think the LEARN group has raised some valid questions. But I think their input has been discounted due to the “anonymous” aspect, and tying their message to this forum. Like it or not, this forum does have a negative connotation to many folks.
In the end, I think too much is at risk to say no before finding an answer to the funding problem. The risk is causing real damage to the school district and those it serves, that the children.
But we do need to hold the school board and administration to more scrutiny.
Oh, and televise the board meetings on the government access channel.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 05 2007,1:37 pm
Replicant, welcome to my hell. I too did get here easily. As far as the concern over administration pay, that some have raised, I have heard that turnover is in the offing for many of our top administrators. When this should occurs and we go out to find their replacements, we will be force to offer market pay to attract applicants. There fore this is a pay me now or pay me later issue that voting no on this referendum will not make go away, only complicating the process of finding good qualified replacements. None of this is easy to swallow and makes for general distrust. The other thing that I agree with you on is that we will need continued community involvement after the vote goes down.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 05 2007,1:37 pm
JimAre you saying team put them up? If that is the case they should be out there remving them. If they did not why would they be the one required to remove them?
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 05 2007,1:47 pm
Thanks Alfy.As to the signs on the poles, I don't think it "illegal" as they are utility property, not government (assuming the signs are attached to electric poles). It may be against utility policy to attach signs of any kind (including rummage sales or homecoming tiger paws for instance). I think that prohibition goes back to the days when linemen physically climbed poles with spikes on their boots. The concern was that metal objects might be a source for grounding and potential electric shock.
I believe linemen still practice to be able to climb if needed. But it's rarely done anymore with the availability of boom trucks.
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 05 2007,1:54 pm
Alfy, you're so full of BS. These jobs pay plenty, much more than the average income per household. There's never a shortage of people looking for a job and chance to move up. Like we don't pay market rates now? Distrust? I'm going to tell my boss to give me a raise or I won't have any trust!
What a pantload. Stop trying to scare people into paying people more who already make MUCH more than the average salary. There's always less jobs available than people who need them, get real.
KIMT who pays MUCH less than these positions get 500 applications for every opening. New blood would be a good thing. You don't reward people for poor performance. You replace them.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 05 2007,1:56 pm
Busybee I find your remarks to be offensive. Stop with the they and them. If you know it is team then say so. But know so don't guess. Not sure when the don't vote sign went up but it could have been after mal or whoever is paying for it parked his sign outside of. Church yesterday by someone who was offened. Don't know.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 05 2007,1:58 pm
MaddogFirst I don't think a sign needs a disclaimer but if youi are soooo concerned about it there is a guy who has one behind is Hummer without one.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,2:00 pm
QUOTE
(i.e. I don’t like the threat approach more than anyone else.)
Then by all means, cast your vote and show the kids that this type of behavior is ok. Vote yes and show our youth that this is ok.
It's just like last year when the students were on Broadway on the sidewalk playing their instruments with a sign next to them saying "Vote yes or are music could be gone." People voted it down last year, did the music go anywhere?Still absolutely NO PROOF has been presented that our kids WILL suffer if people don't vote yes. NONE.
QUOTE
Our district is not top-heavy in administration
Are you certain about this? Mr. Prescott makes $120,000.00 a year. This is $20,000.00 MORE than the whole state of Minnesota average salary for superintendents.
How do we continue to hire/keep these people at ridiculously inflated salaries? This goes for the city manager, the head of ALEDA, and the county administrator as well, in a town of our size?
What would be interesting to know is how many of you that are going to vote yes this year voted yes last year?
and what is different this year than last year if you voted no last year but choose to vote yes this year?
The issue on the closing of the elementary school isn't just dependent on the referendum passing or not, if there continues to be declining enrollment in which there is supposed to be, the elementary school will have to be closed according to the website.
QUOTE
I think the LEARN group has raised some valid questions. But I think their input has been discounted due to the “anonymous” aspect,
I, of course, have to disagree with this. Why would this have ANY bearing whatsoever on whether or not you vote yes or no? This is such ridiculous thinking, do you know everyone who is on TEAM? Why on earth should this matter? So more people could have been strong-armed, as is what did happen?
I totally disagree with this website bringing negativity to the campaign, have you noticed the number of hits it has gotten since the Tribune has put it into their articles? IMO, it continues to provide citizens with another perspective in order to be informed. It continues to be unbiased and real, anyone can say anything without being censored.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,2:11 pm
wildjim-I noticed you didn't answer my questions after I answered yours.
Here they are again.Who is hurting the kids? QUOTE
Now will you be willing to give your facts and not just something you don't agree with on how the kids in the district ARE, not "could" get hurt, going to be hurt in the district from a NO vote? And also if you would give your source, that would be helpful. Thank you.
Posted by katlade on Nov. 05 2007,2:11 pm
Wasn't Prescott a principal at one of our elementary schools before he was promoted? We did not have to go outside our District to get a sup. did we? So I assume he was given a raise to go along with his promotion. What was he making before the raise and what are principals making right now.
$120,000 - Holy Cow. Does anyone really think that he should be making that much in Albert Lea. I don't care how many degrees the man has. Never mistake education with good common sense.
Personally I will vote no for any referendum until he is gone. He takes no blame or resposiblilty for the problems we have now and if he was on top of things he should have been able to see the trend. He does not want to have to make the unpopular decisions and wants the taxpayers to bail him out. What happens next time. Nothing that was promised about the new school has come to be and there are questions about Dr. Prescotts judgement. I and seriously doubt he has all the students well-beings as his priority. Just the ones that count.
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 05 2007,2:14 pm
Good grief Bianca, quite regurgitating your same old lines everytime someone dares to voice their own opinion.It's getting old. I get what you're saying. But you haven't convinced me to vote no.
BTW, I do know who is in TEAM. They had an ad on the back page of the A section of the Oct. 28 Sunday Tribune. No, I'm not a member. Don't particularly like some of their tactics. But not enough to vote no, because it's not TEAM that will suffer, it is the children.
As for LEARN, I know who 3 of the members are. You, Jim & Maddog. Busybee is involved, but I don't know who she(?) is. For all I know, you are it. I understand some people do feel threatened to speak against publicly. I am sure there are more. So yes, LEARN does have a problem with anonymity. Whether you accept it or not.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 05 2007,2:17 pm
TTT, I did not mean distrust of the administration, although they may have some. I meant that the issue leave us the voters distrusting the reasons for needing a referendum. Now I could be wrong about the school districts admin, but check the ages and the stress levels and I would not be a bit surpised to see a number of them exiting soon.
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 05 2007,2:17 pm
(Liberal @ Nov. 04 2007,6:45 pm)
QUOTE
Maybe when the vote is over TEAM and LEARN could lobby the state to give ELECTED School Boards the ability to levy taxes just like the APPOINTED watershed boards can.
It sure would save a lot of time and fighting, and it would make people pay a lot closer attention to school board elections too.
It sure would save a lot of time and fighting, and it would make people pay a lot closer attention to school board elections too.
I agree with this 100%. This is the crux of the problem.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,2:26 pm
replicant-And you yes-men aren't regurgitating the same ole same ole?
All I am asking for is PROOF that our kids will indeed be hurt more from a No vote than from what has been displayed for them in order to get a yes vote, when you all just keep saying " the kids are the ones who will get hurt." Who gets to define what will hurt them and how they will be hurt?
Not one of you have come back with an answer that prooves that the kids will be hurt, not one.
and another thing replicant, you don't know me, I know that you played a part in not wanting the courthouse as you pm'd me that but other than that you don't know me and I don't know you.
Another beauty of this forum is that you can regurgitate information but don't think for a minute that I am the only one doing it here.
VOTE NO IS for our children.
VOTE YES is NOT for our children, it's just folding to the pressure.
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 05 2007,2:28 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 05 2007,2:00 pm)
QUOTE
It's just like last year when the students were on Broadway on the sidewalk playing their instruments with a sign next to them saying "Vote yes or are music could be gone." People voted it down last year, did the music go anywhere?
Music education did in fact take a hit. No it didn't entirely disappear. I don't have it right in front of me, but middle school music education was severely cut. Not entirely, but scaled back, less individual instruction.
Just like with football, if you're not teaching the fundamentals when they're young, your program in later grades will show the results.
Part of the reason we lost a couple well-regarded instructors, Geneva Fitzsimmons and Gene Schott. Yeah, I know the Fitzsimmons moved because her husband got an admin job somewhere else. But I'm sure their decision was made easier.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 05 2007,2:33 pm
I'm afraid if proof is what you want, you will start getting some coming Wednesday if no is the answer to the referendum. No threat, just the way things will have to play out.Don't ya all love how ridged one gets when called a chicken. Well don't say I didn't try to warn ya if that light that is coming down the tracks you are standing on turns out to be a train.
How did that old Rolling Stones song go: "Here comes your 19th nervous breakdown." I guess that is what you get when one is lacking in pragmatic overtures, and epitaph stating I stood my ground.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,2:34 pm
WHAT?QUOTE
the students were on Broadway on the sidewalk playing their instruments with a sign next to them saying "Vote yes or are music could be gone."
QUOTE
No it didn't entirely disappear.
Thank you.
QUOTE
Part of the reason we lost a couple well-regarded instructors, Geneva Fitzsimmons and Gene Schott.
Yet you say:
QUOTE
I know the Fitzsimmons moved because her husband got an admin job somewhere else
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 05 2007,2:38 pm
In fact, there was a 0.8 FTE reduction at Southwest Middle School after last year's failure. I just checked the district list of cuts, see link page 3.< http://albertlea.k12.mn.us/distric....lan.pdf >
Key words, and I said it myself, it did not ENTIRELY disappear. But it got cut.
As to the Fitzsimmons, again note what you did not quote:
But I'm sure their decision was made easier.
Maybe YOU are just a little bit worried? I merely posted my thoughts, I've pretty much stayed out of it to this point. Didn't direct anything at you specifically. But the moment I DARE to disagree with you, you're dumping hot oil like I'm Hagar the Horrible scaling the castle walls.
I'm a Yes-Man? What a pant load, to borrow a phrase. I feel no more beholden to or strong-armed by TEAM than I feel swept off my feet by you.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,2:41 pm
QUOTE
As to the Fitzsimmons, again note what you did not quote:
But I'm sure their decision was made easier.
But I'm sure their decision was made easier.
Just like you're sure that voting no will hurt the children but you have yet to say how?
Also that position you speak of that was cut, do you know for certain that it wasn't one of the jobs cut due to declining enrollment, which we continue to face?
Not dumping hot oil......this is called a debate. You tell your side and I tell mine. Or am I not to question the great Oz? You yes-men feel you should be able to give your point without expecting a counter-point?..... and what does your signature say? Exactly.
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 05 2007,2:47 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 05 2007,2:41 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
As to the Fitzsimmons, again note what you did not quote:
But I'm sure their decision was made easier.
But I'm sure their decision was made easier.
Just like you're sure that voting no will hurt the children but you have yet to say how?
And you can guarantee they won't?
QUOTE
Also that position you speak of that was cut, do you know for certain that it wasn't one of the jobs cut due to declining enrollment, which we continue to face?
It is listed as a 2007-08 reduction cut as a result of the referendum failure last year, not because of declining enrollment. This is at the top of the document:
Posted by january on Nov. 05 2007,2:51 pm
What the:Once again sir, you are bottom feeding.
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 05 2007,2:53 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 05 2007,2:41 pm)
QUOTE
Or am I not to question the great Oz? You yes-men feel you should be able to give your point without expecting a counter-point?..... and what does your signature say? Exactly.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...er under the grocery bag.
The great OZ has spoken.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,2:57 pm
They've already been hurt by the very people you wish to support. Thus showing the kids that anything goes when you want something bad enough. Reality=That's our future and we're constructing it or destructing it as the case will be.
They have been used for an agenda they should never been part of, so regardless of what you think, the hurt has been done.
What is going to happen if the referendum fails and the sky they have been told that was FOR SURE going to be falling doesn't fall? Do you think they will be able to trust the adults that told them this or will the trust be lost?
Reality= If the referendum does fail, I hope these adults can be big enough to apologize for what they already exposed these kids to. There's a reason people have to wait until they are 18 to vote.
Posted by whatthe on Nov. 05 2007,2:58 pm
Bianca/Tonya states and has a platform based on: “241 needs to tell us WHAT will be cut, not WHAT COULD be cut.” But when put to the following question:
Question: I think the LEARN group has raised some valid questions. But I think their input has been discounted due to the “anonymous” aspect.
Her answer is
Bianca/Tonya: I, of course, I have to disagree with this. Why would this have ANY bearing whatsoever on whether or not you vote yes or no? This is such ridiculous thinking.
So you want the whole truth from administrators, but you cannot even give the whole truth on names from your group. As Jim states “you can’t have it both ways.”
Other great Tonya/Bianca quotes:
“I am both ashamed and disgusted in this community I grew up in.”
“The problem with this particular church, Trinity Lutheran, is that the clergy thinks he IS God rather than just a worker of God.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,3:06 pm
whatthe- aka bottom feederIf you want to quote me why not keep it in the context it was used?
Here's another one:
QUOTE
Why would this have ANY bearing whatsoever on whether or not you vote yes or no?
Would you care to answer that? It might give you something other to do than looking up my quotes and taking them out of context, spin-master w.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,3:28 pm
I believe the magic number for the referendum is that they need 5000 yes votes for it to pass? However, I don't think that if a person chooses not to vote it is automatically a yes vote.Does anyone know that this is not the case?
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 05 2007,3:42 pm
Bianca sorry if I missed a question. What is your question?Looked at the 241 flyer. While I am not an attorney I don't think giving out team info is against the law. But that is my opinion and I understand your opinion. But if I follow your posts, you state it as a fact that 241 is in violation. Do you have a legal opinion or is this just your opinion after looking at the AG's website?
I would think that the district has done the reseach and has a legal opinion as to what they can and can't do.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 05 2007,3:48 pm
(wildjim @ Nov. 05 2007,1:58 pm)
QUOTE
Maddog
First I don't think a sign needs a disclaimer but if youi are soooo concerned about it there is a guy who has one behind is Hummer without one.
First I don't think a sign needs a disclaimer but if youi are soooo concerned about it there is a guy who has one behind is Hummer without one.
You've been just itchin' for a fight all along on this.
Yea, I am a member of LEARN. As you have read, LEARN's views are united, but many of us have different points or should I say, problems with the district; and in some diferent ways. As you have read, some posters point out mostly academic issues and others the financial aspect of this issue.
As you can see by the posting here, a few of us are more passionate about this than the others.
I think most of my posts have been either stating my view or posting an article with a link such as this.
QUOTE
211B.01 Definitions.
Subdivision 1. Application. The definitions in chapter 200 and this section
apply to this chapter.
Subd. 2. Campaign material. "Campaign material" means any literature,
publication, or material that is disseminated for the purpose of influencing voting
at a primary or other election, except for news items or editorial comments by
the news media.
Subd. 5. Disbursement. "Disbursement" means an act through which money,
property, office, or position or other thing of value is directly or indirectly
promised, paid, spent, contributed, or lent, and any money, property, office, or
position or other thing of value so promised or transferred.
Subd. 6. Political purposes. An act is done for "political purposes" when the
act is intended or done to influence, directly or indirectly, voting at a primary or
other election. This does not include news items or editorial comments
published or broadcast by the news media.
211B.02 False claim of support.
A person or candidate may not knowingly make, directly or indirectly, a false
claim stating or implying that a candidate or ballot question has the support or
endorsement of a major political party or party unit or of an organization. A
person or candidate may not state in written campaign material that the
99
candidate or ballot question has the support or endorsement of an individual
without first getting written permission from the individual to do so.
211B.03 Use of the term reelect.
A person or candidate may not, in the event of redistricting, use the term
"reelect" in a campaign for elective office unless the candidate is the
incumbent of that office and the office represents any part of the new district.
211B.04 Campaign literature must include disclaimer.
(a) A person who participates in the preparation or dissemination of
campaign material other than as provided in section 211B.05, subdivision 1,
that does not prominently include the name and address of the person or
committee causing the material to be prepared or disseminated in a
disclaimer substantially in the form provided in paragraph (b) or © is guilty
of a misdemeanor.
(b) Except in cases covered by paragraph ©, the required form of disclaimer
is: "Prepared and paid for by the .......... committee, .........(address)" for
material prepared and paid for by a principal campaign committee, or
"Prepared and paid for by the .......... committee, .........(address), in support
of .........(insert name of candidate or ballot question)" for material prepared
and paid for by a person or committee other than a principal campaign
committee.
© In the case of broadcast media, the required form of disclaimer is: "Paid
for by the ............ committee."
(d) Campaign material that is not circulated on behalf of a particular
candidate or ballot question must also include in the disclaimer either that
it is "in opposition to .....(insert name of candidate or ballot question.....)"; or
that "this publication is not circulated on behalf of any candidate or ballot
question."
(e) This section does not apply to objects stating only the candidate's name
and the office sought, fund-raising tickets, or personal letters that are
clearly being sent by the candidate.
(f) This section does not apply to an individual or association who acts
independently of any candidate, candidate's committee, political
committee, or political fund and spends only from the individual's or
association's own resources a sum that is less than $500 in the aggregate to
100
produce or distribute campaign material that is distributed at least seven
days before the election to which the campaign material relates.
(g) This section does not modify or repeal section 211B.06. < Minnesota Campaign and Finance Board >
Take the time to read through this. These are the procedures required by law to follow.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,3:54 pm
I'm glad you asked wildjim-No, it's not an opinion. Also this is concerning District 241 sending out a flyer on taxpayers expense that encourages a yes vote, not that they talked about TEAM.
This is legal fact from the Director of Government Relations in the Minnesota Department of Education.
Minn. Stat. 211B.09 Prohibited Public Employee Activities
can be found at the attorney generals website if you would like more information on this.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 05 2007,3:55 pm
MD, just one question. I know you are part of LEARN, is your interest children or taxes?
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 05 2007,3:57 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 05 2007,3:54 pm)
QUOTE
I'm glad you asked wildjim-
No, it's not an opinion. This is legal fact from the Director of Government Relations in the Minnesota Department of Education.
Minn. Stat. 211B.09 Prohibited Public Employee Activities
can be found at the attorney generals website if you would like more information on this.
No, it's not an opinion. This is legal fact from the Director of Government Relations in the Minnesota Department of Education.
Minn. Stat. 211B.09 Prohibited Public Employee Activities
can be found at the attorney generals website if you would like more information on this.
Let me add to that for you bianca.
QUOTE
211B.09 Prohibited public employee activities.
An employee or official of the state or of a political subdivision may not use
official authority or influence to compel a person to apply for membership in or
become a member of a political organization, to pay or promise to pay a
political contribution, or to take part in political activity. A political subdivision
may not impose or enforce additional limitations on the political activities of its
employees.
see above link.
An employee or official of the state or of a political subdivision may not use
official authority or influence to compel a person to apply for membership in or
become a member of a political organization, to pay or promise to pay a
political contribution, or to take part in political activity. A political subdivision
may not impose or enforce additional limitations on the political activities of its
employees.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 05 2007,4:03 pm
To show how I vote tomorrow, I will be wearing my I Voted sticker upside down to signify my no vote.
Posted by whatthe on Nov. 05 2007,4:08 pm
What if all yes voters also do that? Then what?Wouldn't it be easier to write no after voted
Posted by january on Nov. 05 2007,4:14 pm
Alfy:Well, if one goes to the Minn Dept of Education website one will see that District 241 superintendent is making about $22,000.00 per year over the average superintendent salary in Minnesota.
The District 241 principals are making roughly $5000.00 over the average principals salaries in Minnesota.
If any teachers are leaving it is noted that District 241 has approximately 65% mastered prepared teachers with a top salary of slightly under $60,000.00.
The average pay in the state is $48,000.00 and the average % of mastered prepared teachers is 48%.
I think I have the stats right. Please go to the Minnesota Dept of Ed web to check it out for yourself if I missed something.
As I see our budget we have a huge huge percentage going to salaries.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,4:15 pm
Replicant-When you post something and there is more after it that may be important you should also post that.
There wasn't a position taken away according to your link:
The SWMS reduction is a .8 FTE decrease spread across the three music teachers within the music dept. so no there wasn't a music teacher that lost their job.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,4:28 pm
Average Administrative Salaries: District 241 State
Superintendents: $121,927 $101,849
Principals:
Elementary: $80,830 $89,684
High School: $90,069 $86,894
***Information collected directly from districts**
< http://education.state.mn.us/ReportC....TYPE=01 >
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 05 2007,4:30 pm
January, I don't know were you found your data, but what I saw was a school district digging deep in reserves to keep programs in place. The data available was a compairson of 04-05 to 05-06 and it doesn't look pretty. Now I would like to see what you have seen so direct me to the exact location on the site please.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,4:32 pm
see above for link^^
Posted by katlade on Nov. 05 2007,4:42 pm
(whatthe @ Nov. 05 2007,4:08 pm)
QUOTE
What if all yes voters also do that? Then what?
Wouldn't it be easier to write no after voted
Wouldn't it be easier to write no after voted
That is what I was going to do. Just watch anyone following you out of Wal-Mart or the grocery store.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 05 2007,4:42 pm
So bianca, I hope you are not saying that you are capable of doing any of these jobs. If you are qualified and capable I quess the question is the money enough? I don't think a compairison to average will get you the answer. How does Albert Lea compair to average? How do the various in Albert Lea duties compair to average? How long has the average administrator been in the possition? And try as I could, no I didn't find the data you have posted but I will accept that you must have found it someplace on the site.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,5:11 pm
Alf-Did you click on my link? Then all you have to do is scroll down, very easy.
QUOTE
So bianca, I hope you are not saying that you are capable of doing any of these jobs. If you are qualified and capable I quess the question is the money enough?
Where and How did you come up with this statement/question from anything I have posted?
QUOTE
How does Albert Lea compair to average?
Shown on the link
QUOTE
How do the various in Albert Lea duties compair to average?
Are you sure you are not a TEAM player? Are you trying to incenuate that Albert lea duties are more grueling than say anywhere in the cities?
QUOTE
How long has the average administrator been in the possition?
Are you thinking that all of our administrators should get more than the average because apparently you think they have more years in than the administrators throughout the state?
I guess I just don't follow your reasoning on this or your questions.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 05 2007,5:13 pm
(Alfy Packer @ Nov. 05 2007,3:55 pm)
QUOTE
MD, just one question. I know you are part of LEARN, is your interest children or taxes?
If I said it wasn't the children, would I be rediculed for not trying to represent the best interest for them?
If I stated it's all about taxes, would you condemn me for not thinking of our future generation?
This thread (and issue) I wasn't even following for the first month and a half. It wasn't even near top priority for me.
I read articles in the paper on line. I saw how TEAM and the administration was attacking this issue and how they once again were using strong arm and fear tactics to force this issue. By this time, I was already forming an opinion of which way I was going to vote, but getting involved--NO.
Then around October 1, I did start reading more. I was contacted by a LEARN member who gave me additional information to read.
They were giving facts and figures with reports and state links to verify. They told me they wished to go a step beyond what TEAM was doing.
They also told me that they wanted people to have both sides of this issue so they could make a more informed decision on their vote. That whether the person voted yes or no matted less as long as people were able to see both sides.
The anonymous part. Many of you do not understand this part. There are employers and business owners. Managers and employees of local businesses involved. And yes, teachers. They are scared of loss of business and or jobs. They fear retribution. This is why so few names have been released as members.
Even more so now, it seems like there is so much anomosity toward anyone associated with LEARN and it ain't coming from anyone but pro referendum people.
No, I can't blame anyone who wishes to support LEARN, but remain in the shadows unknown.
With all the information that was shared to me when I agreed to come to a meeting and listening to what direction they wanted to go. I didn't have any problem with picking up LEARN's cross and help where I have been able to.
All I hope is when people do go to the polls tomorrow, they go with the knowledge they need to make an informed decision based on information given them from two different angles and not because of the fear that TEAM has presented to them.
Posted by medic on Nov. 05 2007,5:50 pm
Thanks MD. For me I'm going no/no for these facts. Teachers are telling our kids how to tell mom/dad to vote on education time. Prescott is on air saying we'll just ask again next year. 241 cannot an has not said, give us this and we can show you and the state a positive. We are not going to fail your kids again. We voted for this new school and they knew the numbers would be falling. These are FACTS. I'm all for my kids and I even voted for the new school. But they have failed all of us. I cannot keep putting money into a failing system. I understand things are tuff all over, they were tuff when we gave 241 a brand new school and nothing has changed.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 05 2007,5:52 pm
Do you see anything on LEARN literature that mentions cutting taxes? Everything on the agenda is about making the best use of the money we ARE spending, setting priorities, asking for accountability, asking for ASSURANCES that the money will be spent to maintain programs, and asking for community INPUT on decisions as large as a million dollars.
What do we hear from TEAM? Vague platitudes about "maintaining programs" with no specifics, statements about "improving our schools" with NO agenda written or expressed.
If you are going to give out $2 million dollars, don't you think you should be told what it is FOR, and what they are going to DO with it? Don't you think you should have some ASSURANCES that they are going to do as they SAID THEY WOULD DO?
Tell the Administration/TEAM that if they want our money, they are going to have to tell us SPECIFICALLY how they are going to make it better--and they had better be RIGHT this time, their jobs depend on it.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 05 2007,6:03 pm
Here's an article I wrote which I was told they didn't have room/time for. A staff writer sent me an email with seven questions I was asked if I would answer. As you can see, the answered email was dated October 19 at 8:09 p.m. It didn't make the initial article so I asked that it be printed at a later date.QUOTE
On Oct 21, 2007, at 5:21 PM, MADDOG wrote:
XXXX,
Thanks for letting me know. It's all right, looks like you had a full article with Tonya.
Just keep it and run it next Sunday, but please run it in its entirely. There will be no misconceptions about what we are trying to get across to people that way. You could have the attachment I sent you as a side statement to the story. TEAM supporters have had many acticles and editorials, I"m sure you have room for other ones too.
Thanks again.
Brian Bashans
Albert Lea, Mn. 56007
(507) 373-8647
MADDOG@web-room.net
On Oct 19, 2007, at 8:09 PM, MADDOG wrote:
Here it is.
You're asking a lot of questions that have big answers. Much of this we have discussed as a group. I think this would be the consensus of LEARN.
1. What is the mission of LEARN and how does it hope to impact the referendum debate?
I think that when a small group of us first met, we were angry at the way the district and TEAM was pushing this referendum, through the use of threats and scare tactics. And not just to the adults in our community, but to peoples' children as well. People just don't like and shouldn't be treated that way. LEARN believes voting down this bad bill is better than voting for a flawed bill. We believe that the citizens have not been given the ample ability to develop a dialogue on the issues. We do not think that a flawed bill should be supported--especially a bill that will reach out far into the future. For example, the administration has told us they can save nearly a million dollars by closing a school. Let's discuss that option.
Afterwards, the people may very well decide they are willing to pay extra to keep an extra school open -or they may decide that money could be better used elsewhere.
We should talk about the ROLE the community wants of the schools. Should we be concentrating on scholastic achievement, or extracurriculars. We should make comparative decisions--is it more important to have public employees as school janitors, or would we rather have kids walk to school? We should have GUARANTEES--have administration tell us what they will or will not do with the money--which programs they will keep or cut. They have told us that "If you give us money, people will move to town and grades will be better"--but those things have not happened. As it is, a few people decide to have a referendum, decide what is important, and decide how much to go for. All we get to do is say Yes or No. The last couple of referendums indicate not so much an unwillingness to spend, as a vote of "no confidence" in the administration.
2. How do you feel the referendum debate has evolved?
See the answer to the first question. The referendum proponents initially said they would make things better if only they had the money--and we gave it to them. They said that people would move to town if only the schools were better--they did not. The debate now is not whether you are "for or against the schools" by throwing money at the problem, the debate now should be about "what kind of schools do we WANT?" Should we focus on scholastics? Should we focus on vocational training? WHAT programs are important to US? Have we eliminated waste wherever possible? Are we demanding guarantees and performance for our money? Is the community being given the opportunity to debate the merits of the issues?
3. What are some suggestions you have for the school district?
BE SPECIFIC. The Administration and TEAM offer wide platitudes about "making education better", "developing a strong workforce", and veiled threats of "keeping programs intact", and "we may have to cut your favorite programs." Who WOULDN'T want those ideals, but those ideals are HARDLY goals. A goal has a specific end point--a goal line--a place where winners and losers can be determined. There is no goal line here--and if there is no goal, how do you measure the effectiveness of programs, people, and spending? We would like to be told EXACTLY how the money would be spent.
If you had an investment advisor that advised you to "invest" in a particular stock, you would monitor the performance of the advisor. You would ask about potential risk and reward. You wouldn't accept vague promises that "it will make you rich" or that "if you invest in this stock, people will want to be around you." If the advisor's pick turned out not to perform, you would get a different advisor. We should accept no less in the accountability of our schools.
4. Why do LEARN members want anonymity?
I talk to a number of people in the community. I can't believe the number of people that tell me "I HAVE to support the referendum in public--I would be branded "against the schools" if I didn't--but I don't believe that higher taxes and more spending is good for attracting businesses and homeowners to the community. In private, I'll vote NO." All of the YES propoganda the community is slammed with creates an environment not as responsive to any other ideas or opinions. Since the district does not keep responsibilities in edoucation separate from politics outside the schools and involve the children in sending their YES message, it creates apprehension in parents, grandparents, etc...to speak anything different in public that may compromise their child's educational environment and attitudes about them. Look at the only unofficial poll on this I am aware of at albertlea.com. It's averaging a 60%-40% against. It's anonymous.
The "social elite" of the community is behind this. Drive through the "nice" sections of town--there are far more TEAM signs there than in the poorer sections. A couple of hundred dollars extra there makes little difference--in the poorer sections, the extra money means that they have to make choices of what to cut.
5. What are some actions you and LEARN members take to get your ideas and mission across?
Unlike TEAM and the Administration, we don't have a big budget for promotion. It's hard to fight the power of public funding-- for example, every household received a propaganda sheet from the District, with the pious statement "State law requires that this information be mailed first class to every property owner in School District #241" Inside the TAXPAYER-PAID brochure are a number of pro-referendum articles--and an invitation to "Attend a meeting of the community committee, TEAM (Together Education Achieves More) with information on their meetings AT BROOKSIDE SCHOOL, and how to contact TEAM. The brochure finishes by stating "This publication is not circulated on behalf of any candidate or ballot question."
The brochure gives tables on "Revenue from local operating levies" and "% of Total General Fund"--but does not give the cost per pupil of education compared to other schools. It also does not discuss scholastic achievement. An error of omission?
Did anyone see any OPPOSITION information there?
Instead, LEARN must rely on educating voters through pamphlets, car folders, letters to the editor, and the Forum on Albertlea.com Just Google Albertlea.com Forum to be connected to see what some members say about the issues.
6. What does LEARN hope to accomplish? 7. How has LEARN contributed to the debate?
All we are asking is for community input to our schools--to open a community dialogue on what our schools SHOULD be. We would like education CUSTOMIZED for OUR community (withing Federal and State guidelines). We would like a say in ranking the relative importance of activities OUTSIDE the core courses--would we rather spend money on staff travel, or add another language, for example? We would like the Administration to tell us WHAT they are going to do with the money, and to GUARANTEE results--let's face it, their track record hasn't been too good to date.
Please don't tell us that we can "attend a school board meeting"-- like most board meetings, eyes glaze over, they thank you for your "input", and that's the last of that. One person can't hold the Administration accountable, but an entire community can.
LEARN--Our goals are all part of our name--Let's Educate and Accept Responsibility Now. Under the Administration/TEAM concept, the only choices you have is voting Yes, NO, or not voting. Tell the Administration to come back with something BETTER, something that incorporates the ideas of the COMMUNITY. Please be sure to vote.
Brian Bashans
17548 749th Ave
Albert Lea, Mn. 56007
(507)373-8647
XXXX,
Thanks for letting me know. It's all right, looks like you had a full article with Tonya.
Just keep it and run it next Sunday, but please run it in its entirely. There will be no misconceptions about what we are trying to get across to people that way. You could have the attachment I sent you as a side statement to the story. TEAM supporters have had many acticles and editorials, I"m sure you have room for other ones too.
Thanks again.
Brian Bashans
Albert Lea, Mn. 56007
(507) 373-8647
MADDOG@web-room.net
On Oct 19, 2007, at 8:09 PM, MADDOG wrote:
Here it is.
You're asking a lot of questions that have big answers. Much of this we have discussed as a group. I think this would be the consensus of LEARN.
1. What is the mission of LEARN and how does it hope to impact the referendum debate?
I think that when a small group of us first met, we were angry at the way the district and TEAM was pushing this referendum, through the use of threats and scare tactics. And not just to the adults in our community, but to peoples' children as well. People just don't like and shouldn't be treated that way. LEARN believes voting down this bad bill is better than voting for a flawed bill. We believe that the citizens have not been given the ample ability to develop a dialogue on the issues. We do not think that a flawed bill should be supported--especially a bill that will reach out far into the future. For example, the administration has told us they can save nearly a million dollars by closing a school. Let's discuss that option.
Afterwards, the people may very well decide they are willing to pay extra to keep an extra school open -or they may decide that money could be better used elsewhere.
We should talk about the ROLE the community wants of the schools. Should we be concentrating on scholastic achievement, or extracurriculars. We should make comparative decisions--is it more important to have public employees as school janitors, or would we rather have kids walk to school? We should have GUARANTEES--have administration tell us what they will or will not do with the money--which programs they will keep or cut. They have told us that "If you give us money, people will move to town and grades will be better"--but those things have not happened. As it is, a few people decide to have a referendum, decide what is important, and decide how much to go for. All we get to do is say Yes or No. The last couple of referendums indicate not so much an unwillingness to spend, as a vote of "no confidence" in the administration.
2. How do you feel the referendum debate has evolved?
See the answer to the first question. The referendum proponents initially said they would make things better if only they had the money--and we gave it to them. They said that people would move to town if only the schools were better--they did not. The debate now is not whether you are "for or against the schools" by throwing money at the problem, the debate now should be about "what kind of schools do we WANT?" Should we focus on scholastics? Should we focus on vocational training? WHAT programs are important to US? Have we eliminated waste wherever possible? Are we demanding guarantees and performance for our money? Is the community being given the opportunity to debate the merits of the issues?
3. What are some suggestions you have for the school district?
BE SPECIFIC. The Administration and TEAM offer wide platitudes about "making education better", "developing a strong workforce", and veiled threats of "keeping programs intact", and "we may have to cut your favorite programs." Who WOULDN'T want those ideals, but those ideals are HARDLY goals. A goal has a specific end point--a goal line--a place where winners and losers can be determined. There is no goal line here--and if there is no goal, how do you measure the effectiveness of programs, people, and spending? We would like to be told EXACTLY how the money would be spent.
If you had an investment advisor that advised you to "invest" in a particular stock, you would monitor the performance of the advisor. You would ask about potential risk and reward. You wouldn't accept vague promises that "it will make you rich" or that "if you invest in this stock, people will want to be around you." If the advisor's pick turned out not to perform, you would get a different advisor. We should accept no less in the accountability of our schools.
4. Why do LEARN members want anonymity?
I talk to a number of people in the community. I can't believe the number of people that tell me "I HAVE to support the referendum in public--I would be branded "against the schools" if I didn't--but I don't believe that higher taxes and more spending is good for attracting businesses and homeowners to the community. In private, I'll vote NO." All of the YES propoganda the community is slammed with creates an environment not as responsive to any other ideas or opinions. Since the district does not keep responsibilities in edoucation separate from politics outside the schools and involve the children in sending their YES message, it creates apprehension in parents, grandparents, etc...to speak anything different in public that may compromise their child's educational environment and attitudes about them. Look at the only unofficial poll on this I am aware of at albertlea.com. It's averaging a 60%-40% against. It's anonymous.
The "social elite" of the community is behind this. Drive through the "nice" sections of town--there are far more TEAM signs there than in the poorer sections. A couple of hundred dollars extra there makes little difference--in the poorer sections, the extra money means that they have to make choices of what to cut.
5. What are some actions you and LEARN members take to get your ideas and mission across?
Unlike TEAM and the Administration, we don't have a big budget for promotion. It's hard to fight the power of public funding-- for example, every household received a propaganda sheet from the District, with the pious statement "State law requires that this information be mailed first class to every property owner in School District #241" Inside the TAXPAYER-PAID brochure are a number of pro-referendum articles--and an invitation to "Attend a meeting of the community committee, TEAM (Together Education Achieves More) with information on their meetings AT BROOKSIDE SCHOOL, and how to contact TEAM. The brochure finishes by stating "This publication is not circulated on behalf of any candidate or ballot question."
The brochure gives tables on "Revenue from local operating levies" and "% of Total General Fund"--but does not give the cost per pupil of education compared to other schools. It also does not discuss scholastic achievement. An error of omission?
Did anyone see any OPPOSITION information there?
Instead, LEARN must rely on educating voters through pamphlets, car folders, letters to the editor, and the Forum on Albertlea.com Just Google Albertlea.com Forum to be connected to see what some members say about the issues.
6. What does LEARN hope to accomplish? 7. How has LEARN contributed to the debate?
All we are asking is for community input to our schools--to open a community dialogue on what our schools SHOULD be. We would like education CUSTOMIZED for OUR community (withing Federal and State guidelines). We would like a say in ranking the relative importance of activities OUTSIDE the core courses--would we rather spend money on staff travel, or add another language, for example? We would like the Administration to tell us WHAT they are going to do with the money, and to GUARANTEE results--let's face it, their track record hasn't been too good to date.
Please don't tell us that we can "attend a school board meeting"-- like most board meetings, eyes glaze over, they thank you for your "input", and that's the last of that. One person can't hold the Administration accountable, but an entire community can.
LEARN--Our goals are all part of our name--Let's Educate and Accept Responsibility Now. Under the Administration/TEAM concept, the only choices you have is voting Yes, NO, or not voting. Tell the Administration to come back with something BETTER, something that incorporates the ideas of the COMMUNITY. Please be sure to vote.
Brian Bashans
17548 749th Ave
Albert Lea, Mn. 56007
(507)373-8647
Posted by busybee on Nov. 05 2007,6:08 pm
This is the most recent report I can find on our district...if anyone can find last years...please post. One thing to remember is the state & federal government fund ACADEMICS and INSTRUCTION realated to ACADEMICS. By looking at this report, you can decide for yourself if you think anything could be cut, reduced, changed or improved and if you think the STATE & FED government has been short changing our district so severely that it has crippled their ability to provide our students quality of education.
< Report to Taxpayers >
Posted by january on Nov. 05 2007,6:16 pm
Wildjim:Of course Bianca does not have a legal opinion. Bianca has stated she works and is going to Nursing School. So she is not an attorney. Nor is she dispensing legal advise without a license.
Wildjim and What the, you folks certainly aren't very transparent are you?
Bait..... as you and many many others have tried but I do not believe the LEARN members will reveal those anonymous persons in their group that have chosen to be anonymous.
I have read it written 15 ways to Sunday from good cop bad cop in every rhetorial way, TEAM is not going to penetrate the LEARN camp.
Just sure of it.
As an outsider looking in, it has not been the testing failures that have received the press but the slate of characters involved in the drama. Not the message but the messengers
The message is the pure message when there are no bias' judgements or prejudice.
Posted by Santorini on Nov. 05 2007,6:25 pm
Does anyone know if public schools are mandated to fund extra curriculars? Music..sports..band??Just curious because how nice it would be if these could be community-based and sponsored by business's thus taking some of the stress off of the academic budget. ?? Just curious.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 05 2007,6:44 pm
I have often thought that would be a good idea too. We do it for the elementary...why not junior high & high school? It used to be that ALHS had bowling as one of their school sports. The costs to parents/students etc... dropped considerably when they quit being affiliated with the high school and went off on their own.
Posted by forsure on Nov. 05 2007,7:35 pm
Maybie we should vote what we were all taught in school"Just say NO" HMMMMMMMM
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 05 2007,7:49 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 05 2007,2:57 pm)
QUOTE
They've already been hurt by the very people you wish to support. Thus showing the kids that anything goes when you want something bad enough.
Reality=That's our future and we're constructing it or destructing it as the case will be.
Reality=That's our future and we're constructing it or destructing it as the case will be.
This is the heart and soul of it, isn't it?
A vague threat about unquantified cuts, and an absolute unwillingness to itemize what the referendum monies will be applied to.
Educators on the taxpayer dime spouting propoganda to kids.
If this goes through, it sends a very bad message.
Posted by Glad I Left on Nov. 05 2007,7:51 pm
QUOTE
It used to be that ALHS had bowling as one of their school sports.
I was on the bowling team my Sr. year.(1992) At that time the bowling team was sponsored by the bowling alley in Owatonna and all of our 'Home' games were in Owatonna.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 05 2007,7:58 pm
totally off subject, but I wanted to clarify so no one tried to accuse me of being less than truthful:QUOTE
Bianca has stated she works and is going to Nursing School.
I am a nurse and working, no nursing school anymore.
But thanks for the defense january. and all the great posts you have contributed to this thread.
Posted by january on Nov. 05 2007,8:23 pm
BiancaSorry about that. Congrats on being a nurse.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 05 2007,8:30 pm
QUOTE
I was on the bowling team my Sr. year.(1992) At that time the bowling team was sponsored by the bowling alley in Owatonna and all of our 'Home' games were in Owatonna.
I know somewhere between 3-5 years ago, you could letter in bowling at ALHS. Now it is not recognized and Holiday Lanes and a couple of awesome coaches (not district related) support the junior varsity & varsity leagues.
Posted by january on Nov. 05 2007,8:31 pm
"They've already been hurt by the very people you wish to support. Thus showing the kids that anything goes when you want something bad enough. ""Reality= That's our future and we're constructing it or destructing it as the case will be.""
Botto 82 states "This is the heart and soul of it, isn't it?"
Yes, it is.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 05 2007,8:51 pm
JanuaryLet me be more direct. I know Bianca is not an attorney but she states as "fact" that the district has spent taxpayer money on the yes vote. Yet what was posted was a district flyer that had team contact information in it, which I don't think would be a violation. So the difference is her claiming she has facts when it turns out they are her opinions.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 05 2007,9:07 pm
I really don't care if members of learn come out of the closet or not. So why you use the word bait I have no idea. I don't buy the fear of losing a job either, I believe they lack the self confidence to do so but again fine by me. But what makes you think that learn members have the market cornered on being concerned about test scores? Just because we don't see it as a reason to vote no?And from what I have read from most of the no no crowd is "we are the only ones who understand test scores and our "facts" are without question". Yet if challaged on a "fact" it tends to be either an opinion or only part of the story. While I still enjoy reading and posting, two posts really got me thinking. The posts ripping the medical center and a United Way fund raiser got me thinking about how sad the lives of some who post here must be. Which is why I think most people refuse to show there true name.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 05 2007,9:11 pm
I can see where Bianca is coming from on this one, Wildjim. From the update...
"The School Board and Superintendent greatly appreciate the work of the community committee, TEAM (Together Education Achieves More). The members of TEAM help provide accurate information about the referendum and they can promote a positive vote, which the Board and Superintendent can not do in most situations. The Board and Superintendent can and will provide information about the referendum and encourage community members to vote. If you want to be part of TEAM, please call Al Arends or Tom Ehrhardt."
Basically, the District is promoting a ballot question when they encourage people to value a certain group of community members as a resource for information when they admit that resource does promote a positive vote.
I'm not an attorney, but that's what I interpret as my fact and a mis-use of funds.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 05 2007,9:24 pm
(wildjim @ Nov. 04 2007,4:37 pm)
QUOTE
That people here can and do donate money to schools. It is hard to dialog with you because you fail to even see the common ground. I think you should have been given a mailing list and use of a room if you asked. But I am still voting yes yes. Assuming the district provided a list as opposed to someone with the list sharing it, there is no taxpayer dollars being spent. Your outlay of 300 dollars means you spent 300 dollars.
There are other ways to get/create lists. TEAM would not have to get a list from the District. I find it hard to believe the District gave them a list when lists are easily acquired in other ways.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 05 2007,9:48 pm
QUOTE
And from what I have read from most of the no no crowd is "we are the only ones who understand test scores and our "facts" are without question". Yet if challaged on a "fact" it tends to be either an opinion or only part of the story.
I have posted over and over again the FACTS directly from the MN Dept. of Ed website. Is this not a credible source in your opinion?
The FACTS prove themselves...basically only 1 school in our district does better than the state average in reading & math, with ALHS significantly lower in math than the state average.
Was it you who said that students in 11th grade don't care enough to do anymore than write their name on the test...so 77% of students not being proficient in math is no biggie because people just don't understand that the scores actually don't mean anything anyway?
That's about all I've heard from anyone who supports the referendum about test scores and where District 241 falls in the line-up in the state.
My theory is...if you want quality in education...than you can't afford to make excuses and throw in the towel because that's when the kids suffer the most.
We could pass a 10 million dollar referendum tomorrow, but if no one is concerned about bringing our district up to state average or above, ALHS math students at least up to state average, the 10 million dollars will get spent, and everything will stay THE SAME.
Staying the same, bringing back the same, is not good enough for me, nor is that good enough for our students and this community.
We can do better.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 05 2007,9:53 pm
QUOTE
There are other ways to get/create lists. TEAM would not have to get a list from the District. I find it hard to believe the District gave them a list when lists are easily acquired in other ways.
So, how did TEAM get my 3 year old's name and address? How about new phone numbers that TEAM has called parents on, who just informed the school at enrollment time of a number change?
That just seems like it is too easy.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 05 2007,10:40 pm
Busybee have I ever posted that the test scores were not facts? But with a third of the schools not making ayp condeming 241 as some failed outlayer is misleading. And nope it was not me that you are quoting. Nor do I think you should throw the towel in. If you took the time to go to any of the meetings I was at you would find that staying the same is not good enough but I don't think we can afford to fund locally what needs to be done so this buys us some time on the hope that federal and state funding improves. I like the promise of NCLB but it is goingto take resources to get there.
I don't know if the district gave them a list or not but it sure looks like they did. And you will find that if they did I would have given on to learn. But I would think the district has the legal opinion as to what they can and cannot do. There is a difference between not liking what the district does and saying it is illegal
Posted by busybee on Nov. 05 2007,10:58 pm
Test scores are test scores, I wasn't talking about AYP. Where our district fits compared to all other districts in the state is important to me and it has nothing to do with NCLB.
If anything, it proves that NCLB isn't as stringent as people believe, considering that all but 1 school in the district is below state average in reading & math.
I've already proven that state funding is increasing over the next two years by 6.1%. Considering the State funds the majority of the educational dollars, that's a pretty good increase. Yet, I don't ever think it will be enough until people realize that the funds given from the state for general education should go there first.
Never should I see that we are below state average on how much we spend per pupil in general education. That's a district issue, not a State funding issue.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 06 2007,7:17 am
BbMost of the times referendums are expressed in an amount per year. But I guess I could say its only $166,000. Both numbers are correct but both leave a false impressioin. Sorry about the test scores vs ayp. I am with you on our need to do better on test scores
I missed your funding post. Will you repost?
I saw some numbers that make the numbers in year 2 look better since the referendum dollars we have in place are removed before the amount of increase is calculated. Which creates a false impression but is accurate.
Posted by samsdad on Nov. 06 2007,7:42 am
Today's the day. GO VOTE!!!
Posted by JeffJimenez on Nov. 06 2007,8:05 am
Yep, get out and Vote. District 241 along with 99 other school districts are facing the same sitution. We will all find out tonight.................
Posted by busybee on Nov. 06 2007,8:26 am
Happy Referendum Vote Day everyone!
Posted by busybee on Nov. 06 2007,8:33 am
Wildjim...the budget is probably back about 10 pages I'm guessing. I don't have time right now to look for it...it's a link and something I could open up on excel...not sure if you have that or not.
Posted by ICU812 on Nov. 06 2007,8:58 am
According to my "inside information" the yes votes are ahead 205-159. Will keep all posted during the day. 207-163 now.
Posted by ICU812 on Nov. 06 2007,9:10 am
Just had a busload of LEARN supporters show up in the ward 5 NO votes are now ahead 275-242. Its gonna be a real horserace all day, stay tuned to Albertlea.com for the latest most accurate voting results, now in realtime.
Posted by ICU812 on Nov. 06 2007,9:22 am
the 9:15 rush in Hayward has netted a lead for the Yes people it is now 315-295. Its gonna be a long day folks, but I will keep you all up to date with the latest tallies, all free all day.......on my way to the Methodist church to get the latest. Wow what a day.
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 06 2007,9:23 am
QUOTE
That means people today can vote “no,” “yes, no,” and “yes, yes.”
Even the Fishwrap got it wrong. They forgot "No, No."
Posted by katlade on Nov. 06 2007,9:29 am
(Botto 82 @ Nov. 06 2007,9:23 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
That means people today can vote “no,” “yes, no,” and “yes, yes.”
Even the Fishwrap got it wrong. They forgot "No, No."
I asked a volunteer if I needed to fill in no twice and she told me I would only have to fill in the first vote. I actually filled in both no's but what is the proper way to fill in the ballot if you want no no? They are informing people that if you want no-no all you have to do is fill in the first no.
The poll places are busy. When I left someone asked my name and I told her. She thought I was Tonya Lynch. She seemed nice so I hope she was a supporter of Learn.
Posted by ICU812 on Nov. 06 2007,9:36 am
Seems to be the YES crowd is widening the gap they now lead 415-362. One culprit suspected and given to me by an election official at an unamed polling location if a flurry of write-in votes. The most popular is a Maybe-Not Sure followed by a Probably-Defiantly Not. I hate to admit it but I never saw the write-in crowd influencing this election but it could...More to follow from my live mobile report.
Posted by january on Nov. 06 2007,9:37 am
I would like to respond to wildjim and the District 241 FAQ. Busybee had a post with FAQ where you could click on and it would take you to the District 241 information.First of all, District 241 failed to make AYP this year. They failed because the group of students that failed last year once again failed this year. All sub-groups must pass to pass AYP. They failed to make AYP. The Administration and people who are the experts on the interpretations of these tests were obviously able to see where they failed last year.
Why were this group of students allowed to fail again this year?
Failing two years in a row, with the same sub-group?
And then adding another school this year to their list of failing to make AYP schools?
The ACT scores that they proudly note is doing the same or better than 3 years ago?
ALHS composite ACT scores have been consistently BELOW STATE COMPOSITE AVERAGES YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR!!!!
In every ACT division test that was taken in the most recent year, ALHS students composite scores were below State composite averages in every single test that was taken.
The students taking this test are the ones doing so voluntarily and going on to college.
The NCLB mandates do NOT apply to this test.
These are real issues and real problems. Address it, analyze it, assess it, act on it, administer it and achieve it.
Posted by GEOKARJO on Nov. 06 2007,9:52 am
So far the voters are those who are not tied to a 6 am to 3:30 pm job I will predict a change in the voting results as soon as the blue coller vote is cast.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,9:53 am
I would also like to respond to wildjim who apparently does not understand the meaning of fact vs opinion. I did not post that envelope or the flyer. What I am referring to and what is fact verified by the Attorney generals office is a newsletter that was mailed out with taxpayer dollars that encouraged a Yes, yes vote. It didn't say much about TEAM, if anything, it was a 6 page district newsletter from District 241.Do you understand the part where I could probably be sued for putting this information in the paper if this wasn't correct
Absolutely, certifiably, without a smidge of a doubt was ILLEGAL. And I wouldn't doubt that this may come up as a court proceeding after the referendum is voted on, not by myself, but there are many people who are angry and financially able to take the district to court. This last paragraph IS an opinion, the preceeding paragraphs are absolutely not opinions. It WAS wrong, no matter how you spin it or TRY to excuse it. WRONG and ILLEGAL.
.....and it would be great if district 241 would acknowledge it and take responsibility for it by making an apology whether the referendum passes or not.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 06 2007,9:54 am
Santorini QUOTE
Does anyone know if public schools are mandated to fund extra curriculars? Music..sports..band??
Just curious because how nice it would be if these could be community-based and sponsored by business's thus taking some of the stress off of the academic budget. ?? Just curious.
This is one of the elements of CHARTER schools--a school district's worst nightmare.Just curious because how nice it would be if these could be community-based and sponsored by business's thus taking some of the stress off of the academic budget. ?? Just curious.
Charter schools are PUBLIC schools, with a defined goal--and often a special curriculum. They are also supported by donations from individuals and businesses. The State/Federal money follows the KID.
QUOTE
Charter schools operate on three basic principles:
Choice: Charter schools give families an opportunity to pick the school most suitable for their child’s educational well-being. Teachers choose to create and work at schools where they directly shape the best working and learning environment for their students and themselves. Likewise, charter sponsors choose to authorize schools that are likely to best serve the needs of the students in a particular community.
Accountability: Charter schools are judged on how well they meet the student achievement goals established by their charter contract. Charter schools must also show that they can perform according to rigorous fiscal and managerial standards. If a charter school cannot perform up to the established standards, it will be closed.
Freedom: While charter schools must adhere to the same major laws and regulations as all other public schools, they are freed from the red tape that often diverts a school’s energy and resources away from educational excellence. Instead of constantly jumping through procedural hoops, charter school leaders can focus on setting and reaching high academic standards for their students.
Choice: Charter schools give families an opportunity to pick the school most suitable for their child’s educational well-being. Teachers choose to create and work at schools where they directly shape the best working and learning environment for their students and themselves. Likewise, charter sponsors choose to authorize schools that are likely to best serve the needs of the students in a particular community.
Accountability: Charter schools are judged on how well they meet the student achievement goals established by their charter contract. Charter schools must also show that they can perform according to rigorous fiscal and managerial standards. If a charter school cannot perform up to the established standards, it will be closed.
Freedom: While charter schools must adhere to the same major laws and regulations as all other public schools, they are freed from the red tape that often diverts a school’s energy and resources away from educational excellence. Instead of constantly jumping through procedural hoops, charter school leaders can focus on setting and reaching high academic standards for their students.
Any wonder why NEA and the school administrations hate them?
Here's a link null< My Webpage >
If the Administration won't offer Choice, Accountability, and Freedom, maybe it's time to offer a Charter school as a Public school alternative.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,10:05 am
I can't believe how many senior citizens are out there voting. It's a nice day for all of them to get out.ICU-812 you are kidding, right? I really am that ditzy on the tallying.
How could you know any numbers by now? Do the judges count the votes individually at the individual polling places or do they take them to a central location to count them?And does anyone know about the 5000 votes thing? Isn't that the number they have to have in order for it to pass?
I am thinking that it doesn't matter which choice is ahead, I thought I had been told that there's a certain number of votes or a certain percentage of people who have to vote yes in order for it to pass. (?)
Does anyone know?
Posted by ICU812 on Nov. 06 2007,10:20 am
Just leaving the Methodist Church and heading to Clarks Grove. So far it looks as if the No crowd is ahead 645-562, according to my latest calls, one more call to make to Halverson for the latest tally. Many thanks to all of the election officials who have helped get me this up to the minute information.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,10:34 am
That's not very nice to toy with us, you had me goin' there for a minute.....ok maybe two minutes.
Posted by GEOKARJO on Nov. 06 2007,10:35 am
QUOTE
If passed, the levy could increase property taxes on a $100,000 home an additional $10.41 per month, according to the Freeborn County assessor.
After the vote is cast, each voter will drop the ballot into a locked ballot box, not to be looked at until the polls close at 8 p.m., Ruud said.
Once the polls close, election judges will unlock the ballot boxes and count the votes for the first question on all ballots by hand. The ballots will then be tabulated again for the second question.
After the vote is cast, each voter will drop the ballot into a locked ballot box, not to be looked at until the polls close at 8 p.m., Ruud said.
Once the polls close, election judges will unlock the ballot boxes and count the votes for the first question on all ballots by hand. The ballots will then be tabulated again for the second question.
How are you getting these numbers?
Posted by ICU812 on Nov. 06 2007,10:43 am
QUOTE
How are you getting these numbers?
Liberal gave me an all access albertlea.com press pass, once the election judges see it they let us open the ballot boxes and count them-I have a crew at every polling place until midnight tonight. Nah, just kidding, it's all electronic for me.
Newest tally has the yes votes back in the lead. 1055 to 1022. She is a close one.
Posted by ICU812 on Nov. 06 2007,10:47 am
And remember folks if you can't get your self up to vote you can go out and buy Levotera, the election enhancement drug.
Posted by GEOKARJO on Nov. 06 2007,11:00 am
I just left the Brookside School and I was voter number 1030
Posted by katlade on Nov. 06 2007,11:08 am
Looks like a good turn-out so far. Any opinions on what that means for a yes-no outcome. I am pretty sure all the perky TEAM cult-I mean- group members were all out there bright and early this a.m. voting yes yes to save our children and village from mediocrity.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 06 2007,11:26 am
I was #112 in Clarks Grove at 9 a.m. I was right behind a van with a "Yes Yes!" on it.
Guess we cancelled each other out.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 06 2007,11:32 am
QUOTE
And remember folks if you can't get your self up to vote you can go out and buy Levotera, the election enhancement drug.
There are SO many possible side connotations to that!
"With Levotera, you can be ready to vote immediately--or up to 36 hours later"
"When the time is right for voting, you'll be ready with Levotera"
"Tell the School Administration or Poll worker if you still are voting more than 4 hours later."
If LeVotera is not right for you, try VOTAGRA. "Viva Votagra!"
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 06 2007,11:42 am
CAUTION: Side effects of Levotra may include, but are not limited to: Keen interest in civic matters, nausea and vomiting at the sight of Al Franken or Hillary Clinton, resposible behavior, and long-term sobriety. Remember to tell your doctor if you have a history of voting DFL, or smoking marijuana. Results may vary.
Posted by GEOKARJO on Nov. 06 2007,11:46 am
< - Watch more free videos >
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,11:54 am
Step away from the tv, boys. You know the commercial way too well. Thanks for the belly laugh.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 06 2007,11:54 am
Thanks for the post Bianca. I was reacting based the the pdf that was posted. So and I am not trying to be a pian, trying to learn and understand, you have a flyer the district sent out the encouraged a yes yes vote and this document was reviwed by the AG and the AG issued an opinion based on their review of the document. If that is right, then the district should be held accountable. I don't know what the penalty is but assuming the facts as laid out above are correct I understand why you are upset. I don't like that either.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,12:11 pm
Thank you for at least acknowledging it. I have very little doubt that the school board was aware of this. I would hope that whoever put the newsletter together didn't really know the laws on that either. I just wish that the district would at least recognize that they do and can make mistakes and then 'fess up to them rather than acting like it never happened. And/or that people who vote no, aren't voting against the students, they really do want responsible and honest communication. I really think the community would start to get some of the trust back again if they would just "stay real"
I just hope we all can work together on solutions that will satisfy more of the community but yet keep academics progressing.
Posted by katlade on Nov. 06 2007,12:44 pm
A poll should be taken on how many parents want to vote No and were scared into voting Yes. I am personally appalled at the militant tactics used by pro referendum supporters and the fact that nobody came out and asknowledged and apologized for this behaivor. Or encouraged them to quit. Teachers should not be allowed to tell students how parents should vote - period -end of story. Why doesn't the trib cover this? Considering some of the irrelevant crap they write stories about I would think that having a group in town pratically bulling voters to vote the way they want would make for a good story. Especially since they some of the same people are the ones we pay to educate our kids. Geez, I think our school system might have some bigger problems than just funding.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 06 2007,1:00 pm
Jim, I'm all for the charter school concept. Bet you can't guess what grades I would be interesting in teaching?
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 06 2007,1:00 pm
It's a catch-22. As soon as educators try to teach ethics, parents are up in arms. "How DARE you try to teach my kid what's right and what's wrong?!?"Don't laugh - I've seen it in action.
So a departure from things ethical would seem logical, almost par for the course.
Posted by Whiskero on Nov. 06 2007,1:01 pm
The guy on Kate Radio just said the turnout for voting has been phenomenal.
Posted by Madd Max on Nov. 06 2007,1:09 pm
Halverson was out of "I Voted" stickers before 9 am
Posted by Madd Max on Nov. 06 2007,1:11 pm
Halverson was out of "I Voted" stickers before 9 am
Posted by Tinker on Nov. 06 2007,1:17 pm
At Halverson at 10:45, they said they had over 300 at that point in time. No, I didn't get a sticker!!!
Posted by Tinker on Nov. 06 2007,1:19 pm
(Botto 82 @ Nov. 06 2007,11:42 am)
QUOTE
CAUTION: Side effects of Levotra may include, but are not limited to: Keen interest in civic matters, nausea and vomiting at the sight of Al Franken or Hillary Clinton, resposible behavior, and long-term sobriety. Remember to tell your doctor if you have a history of voting DFL, or smoking marijuana. Results may vary.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 06 2007,1:23 pm
It does apper that we will have a high voter turn out. Something has people motivated to get out for this special election.I went past Methodist at 11:00 and cars were lined up all the way into the highway. I voted at Halvorson at 10:30. I asked for a "I voted" sticker and was told they ran out of them a "long time ago."
One elected official mentioned to me this morning that 75% of referendums pass on non general election years. I don't know where he got that info from though.
One thing, this referendum has people motivated!
Posted by Replicant on Nov. 06 2007,1:29 pm
(jimhanson @ Nov. 06 2007,11:32 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
And remember folks if you can't get your self up to vote you can go out and buy Levotera, the election enhancement drug.
There are SO many possible side connotations to that!
"With Levotera, you can be ready to vote immediately--or up to 36 hours later"
"When the time is right for voting, you'll be ready with Levotera"
"Tell the School Administration or Poll worker if you still are voting more than 4 hours later."
If LeVotera is not right for you, try VOTAGRA. "Viva Votagra!"
LeVotera -
Vote early and vote often!
Just like they do it in Chicago.
Posted by katlade on Nov. 06 2007,2:00 pm
(MADDOG @ Nov. 06 2007,1:23 pm)
QUOTE
It does apper that we will have a high voter turn out. Something has people motivated to get out for this special election.
I went past Methodist at 11:00 and cars were lined up all the way into the highway. I voted at Halvorson at 10:30. I asked for a "I voted" sticker and was told they ran out of them a "long time ago."
One elected official mentioned to me this morning that 75% of referendums pass on non general election years. I don't know where he got that info from though.
One thing, this referendum has people motivated!
Something has people motivated to get out for this special election.I went past Methodist at 11:00 and cars were lined up all the way into the highway. I voted at Halvorson at 10:30. I asked for a "I voted" sticker and was told they ran out of them a "long time ago."
One elected official mentioned to me this morning that 75% of referendums pass on non general election years. I don't know where he got that info from though.
One thing, this referendum has people motivated!
I wish I knew what the motivation was. It could go eitherway.
I did get a sticker but that was about 8 am. I also got a cup of coffee and donut ball. (after I voted).
Posted by january on Nov. 06 2007,2:04 pm
Congratulations to those people who post here that were LEARN members.No matter which way this thing goes:
Mission accomplished.
The voters are out in droves.
You put fire in their bellies
Information is a powerful thing
The pen truly is mightier than the sword!!!!
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 06 2007,2:18 pm
BiancaAnd you don't have to do it today if you are busy. But will you post the AG opinion please.
Posted by katlade on Nov. 06 2007,2:21 pm
Totally agree I think this if the first time that we have had some really great information that was not one-sided. It was presented in an intelligent ,well-thought, fair manner. Not that I am against anyone making a living but when the guy who runs Pure Pleasures gets his 2 cents worth in he tends to be a bit vulgar and it puts some people off because of what he does for a living. I guess many people would prefer to hear the other side of the story from someone that is in the same position as them and can relate to. LEARN was not really making the issue about money but responsibility and accountability. They were the only ones making that point. The only thing the other side could say was Vote yes if you care for your children. I think it was more complicated than that.
I sure hope it was LEARN that motivated people. They sure presented their position well. You should all be proud.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,3:26 pm
Just came back from picking my child up from school and on the school yard there's a man standing there with a big sign in his hand that says "Election is today vote yes yes"Thanks for posting the nice things about LEARN, I know they all appreciate it and they DID work hard, many sleepless nights looking for true facts and "thinking outside the box" and it was ALL for our kids, our community and our future regardless of the outcome. Good job guys/gals I appreciate your devotion and hard work too.
I noticed in the paper that it is a simple majority that makes/ or breaks the referendum:
If the first question receives a simply majority of votes, it increases the per-student funding from local property taxes from $489 to $869. The funding would be in place for seven years. If it fails to receive a simple majority, the local levy drops to zero.
Also interesting is that there were 850 absentee ballots turned in before the election. Our District is very good at voter turn-out, and that is great that people take part in the process.
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 06 2007,3:55 pm
How can you go from $489 to $869 per student and claim it's only going to add $10 per $100,000 of home value? When this passes it'll make taxes go up way more than that.
Posted by Krusty on Nov. 06 2007,3:56 pm
QUOTE
I know they all appreciate it and they DID work hard, many sleepless nights looking for true facts and "thinking outside the box" and it was ALL for our kids, our community and our future regardless of the outcome.
With this much horse poo being spread around there has to be a pony here someplace.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 06 2007,4:21 pm
Hey, albertleamom. Looking back at you starting the thread on August 21 with you sayingQUOTE
lets see how this is going so far
What do you think now?
< page one >
Posted by medic on Nov. 06 2007,4:53 pm
WIldjim, could you tell me your view on techers telling kids how to tell their parent to vote. May I add this was on tax payer money time. During school. I don't think you have look at this yet, or at least said your point of view on it. Thanks for your input on all of this, it has been fun!
Posted by katlade on Nov. 06 2007,5:07 pm
(medic @ Nov. 06 2007,4:53 pm)
QUOTE
WIldjim, could you tell me your view on techers telling kids how to tell their parent to vote. May I add this was on tax payer money time. During school. I don't think you have look at this yet, or at least said your point of view on it. Thanks for your input on all of this, it has been fun!
What about employers telling employees how to vote? And Girl Scout leaders telling parents of the scouts how to vote in an e-mail? These people need to get some education about the importance of having the right to vote for who and what you want to vote for and it is a secret vote - Duh. Do you think that they might cover that in the schools if the referendum passes?
Personally, I am pretty disgusted by it all.
If my employer told me to vote yes I would turn around and ask for a raise large enough to cover my property tax increase. Wouldn't that make many people vote the opposite?
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 06 2007,5:14 pm
If they are "telling them" during class time I am with you.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,5:39 pm
katlade- QUOTE
I did get a sticker but that was about 8 am. I also got a cup of coffee and donut ball. (after I voted).
That was because they found out you weren't Tonya Lynch
I went to vote and got no coffee, no donut balls and not even a sticker. That was 8:45 this morning. I think they saw me comin' "Hide everything" --------------
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,5:42 pm
I agree medic-Thanks wildjim for adding to the conversation, from the other side, with civility.
Posted by JeffJimenez on Nov. 06 2007,5:57 pm
anybody have an update??? BTW, I didn't get a sticker, coffee or a donut. I did get a few hello's though!!
Posted by medic on Nov. 06 2007,5:59 pm
Thanks Wildjim, I was not in the class but...6 other people I talked with said they had kids coming home saying the same thing. So if a class has 20-25 kids in it, and they all came home saying the same thing. How much PR or pushing has been done on taxpayers dime? I hope you dont think I'm/were not for the kids. But it is reasons like the above I cannot vote to keep the same in place. They should not use the kids as a chip, and maybe have an idea place if things fail. Wildjim, thanks again for your input and at least trying to see things from a different point of view. I think which ever the side of the fence you fall you have at least an open mind and can at least listen to a different view of things.
Posted by DrBombay on Nov. 06 2007,6:08 pm
QUOTE
I asked a volunteer if I needed to fill in no twice and she told me I would only have to fill in the first vote. I actually filled in both no's but what is the proper way to fill in the ballot if you want no no? They are informing people that if you want no-no all you have to do is fill in the first no.
The poll places are busy. When I left someone asked my name and I told her. She thought I was Tonya Lynch. She seemed nice so I hope she was a supporter of Learn.
The poll places are busy. When I left someone asked my name and I told her. She thought I was Tonya Lynch. She seemed nice so I hope she was a supporter of Learn.
I asked the same question, I didn't get a real answer, they were too afraid they could be charged with influencing my vote or something. Before when we had the 2 part question, it seemed to specify that it was only necessary to vote on the second question if you voted yes on the first. Anyway, I was a little scared that by voting no no, they might throw out my ballot on a technicality. They would'nt have a sick rule like that...would they???
And......
QUOTE
When I left someone asked my name and I told her. She thought I was Tonya Lynch. She seemed nice so I hope she was a supporter of Learn.
If it was an election official they shouldn't have been asking!
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 06 2007,6:11 pm
Interesting that you brought up the poll. Only 110 people voted in it.
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 06 2007,6:14 pm
Predictions anyone? I am going with 64% yes, 54% yes yes.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,6:26 pm
Really?I have no idea, but IF the yes votes win, my guess would be the gap between yes and no will be much closer than 60/40.
and I would think if people voted for question one they would most likely vote yes for the second as well.
These polls on here usually are more for conversation and debate than anything. As you can see though that this thread alone got over 40,000 views/hits. Obviously not everyone posted but it is and was another avenue to get information.
Posted by hymiebravo on Nov. 06 2007,6:32 pm
7 more posts till 1000 replies after this one.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 06 2007,6:56 pm
(busybee @ Nov. 04 2007,10:00 pm)
QUOTE
So, unless a person is directly related to education in District 241, they can have no credibility, no inspiration, no involvement in determining anything other than voting on the choices made by a few?
I like your thinking on this. I would add that simply because someone is employed doesn't mean that they have no credibility, and no inspiration. In fact, one can get a lot by reading. A person can learn a lot by looking at stats. Education however is a people business and stats may not always be the best judge of what to do.
Posted by Liberal on Nov. 06 2007,7:01 pm
QUOTE
Education however is a people business and stats may not always be the best judge of what to do.
Judge Smails: Ty, what did you shoot today?
Ty Webb: Oh, Judge, I don't keep score.
Judge Smails: Then how do you measure yourself with other golfers?
Ty Webb: By height.
Posted by banquo on Nov. 06 2007,7:05 pm
I voted today at around noon. Tons of old people, way out numbering my age and younger. Wonder how they will vote? Oh yeah, i did get coffee and donut holes. BTW, who paid for that the school dist?
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 06 2007,7:20 pm
(hymiebravo @ Nov. 06 2007,6:32 pm)
QUOTE
7 more posts till 1000 replies after this one.
100 pages of responses. Impressive.
Posted by DrBombay on Nov. 06 2007,7:22 pm
998
Posted by Santorini on Nov. 06 2007,7:42 pm
(Krusty @ Nov. 06 2007,3:56 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
I know they all appreciate it and they DID work hard, many sleepless nights looking for true facts and "thinking outside the box" and it was ALL for our kids, our community and our future regardless of the outcome.
With this much horse poo being spread around there has to be a pony here someplace.
Krusty your intelligence is showing... where did you say you went to school!!!
Posted by cheeba on Nov. 06 2007,7:47 pm
(banquo @ Nov. 06 2007,7:05 pm)
QUOTE
I voted today at around noon. Tons of old people, way out numbering my age and younger. Wonder how they will vote?
Oh yeah, i did get coffee and donut holes. BTW, who paid for that the school dist?
Oh yeah, i did get coffee and donut holes. BTW, who paid for that the school dist?
Yeah I hear ya. I was at Halverson and I didn't see anyone within 30 years of me.
I asked quite a few friends today if they went to vote. They laughed and said no. All I basically heard was "Ahh if it dont pass they will shove it down us again next year. So why even bother voting?"
Hmmm well whatever I voted. Can't complain about the results if I voted and tried.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 06 2007,8:04 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 05 2007,2:26 pm)
QUOTE
Not one of you have come back with an answer that prooves that the kids will be hurt, not one.
Bianca,
you're right! I can't tell you how the kids will be hurt. But the reason I can't is because your definition of "hurt" is so vastly different from mine.
IMO kids get "hurt" when there is insufficient staffing in our school libraries. When 10 students are in line to be receive permission to use a computer while two other students want help finding a resource and yet their is no librarian in the room. The only person in the room is a very capable clerk. When the kids have to come back after school because no one could help them because the library has too many students and not enough professional staff to help.
IMO kids get "hurt" when the middle school band director has to teach all the elementary band students and the middle school band students because our district cannot afford three band directors the way that they do in Austin.
IMO kids get "hurt" when the Humanities teacher at the high school has 40 kids in one class and only has them for 50 minutes a day.
I can go on an on. This by the way isn't what is on the chopping block. This is how it is this year after last springs cuts. If this doesn't pass, it will only get worse.
In what way you may be asking. Why hasn't the board specified what will be cut. I will tell you that I asked the board why they would specify the cuts. Their answer, "it's always been done that way". My response, was I don't want them saying that they are cutting wrestling and then having the basketball parents stay home on voting night because basketball isn't getting cut.
If this passes, I will be congratulating them for having a winning campaign strategy.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,8:16 pm
QUOTE
If this passes, I will be congratulating them for having a winning campaign strategy.
A winning campaign strategy? That says a lot about the difference between you and I. And I hope that I never become as callous as you sound. Their campaign stunk in every which way. They stooped to lower levels than I ever thought possible to get their agenda passed.
One thing is for sure though....
QUOTE
But the reason I can't is because your definition of "hurt" is so vastly different from mine.
and I thank God for that.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 06 2007,8:20 pm
(january @ Nov. 05 2007,4:14 pm)
QUOTE
Alfy:
Well, if one goes to the Minn Dept of Education website one will see that District 241 superintendent is making about $22,000.00 per year over the average superintendent salary in Minnesota.
The District 241 principals are making roughly $5000.00 over the average principals salaries in Minnesota.
If any teachers are leaving it is noted that District 241 has approximately 65% mastered prepared teachers with a top salary of slightly under $60,000.00.
The average pay in the state is $48,000.00 and the average % of mastered prepared teachers is 48%.
I think I have the stats right. Please go to the Minnesota Dept of Ed web to check it out for yourself if I missed something.
As I see our budget we have a huge huge percentage going to salaries.
Well, if one goes to the Minn Dept of Education website one will see that District 241 superintendent is making about $22,000.00 per year over the average superintendent salary in Minnesota.
The District 241 principals are making roughly $5000.00 over the average principals salaries in Minnesota.
If any teachers are leaving it is noted that District 241 has approximately 65% mastered prepared teachers with a top salary of slightly under $60,000.00.
The average pay in the state is $48,000.00 and the average % of mastered prepared teachers is 48%.
I think I have the stats right. Please go to the Minnesota Dept of Ed web to check it out for yourself if I missed something.
As I see our budget we have a huge huge percentage going to salaries.
Cherry Pickin' Season. Let's compare the teacher salaries of PEOPLE who have EARNED Masters Degrees in Albert to the state average of ALL teachers. Hummmm Cherry pie anyone?
Why in the world would any of these stats matter. As for the Supt's salary, how about we compare his salary with schools of like size? To be fair, we can even look at School District's with like enrollment, and a community with a similar tax base.
Oh.... I forgot, doing that would have hurt your argument. My bad.
January, January, January... I can't wait until February.
p.s. as for the band director... yes he did leave for a new job. However, I talked to him the wednesday after last years failed ref and he told me that day that he wouldn't stay here and he definitely wouldn't raise his kids here. I remember thinking that this was a little excessive. It wasn't until spring that he started his job search that led him to interview for jobs all across the country.
Posted by UMC1 on Nov. 06 2007,8:28 pm
"Oh yeah, i did get coffee and donut holes. BTW, who paid for that the school dist?"This was provided by the members of United Methodist Church as a sign of hospitality, has nothing to do with how you voted. Hope all who voted at United Methodist Church enjoyed.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 06 2007,8:28 pm
(jimhanson @ Nov. 05 2007,5:52 pm)
QUOTE
If you are going to give out $2 million dollars, don't you think you should be told what it is FOR, and what they are going to DO with it? Don't you think you should have some ASSURANCES that they are going to do as they SAID THEY WOULD DO? :p
In case you haven't been paying attention, it s to keep the lights on. It would cost a bunch more to help solve any problems, but no one would vote for a greater $$$ amount than the district is asking for.
You are right LEARN doesn't mention anything about cutting taxes.
Simple Yes/No question....
If I told you that the district could guarantee smaller class sizes, higher test scores, and more accountability, but that it would cost twice what they are asking for this year, would you vote YES?
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 06 2007,8:31 pm
(Santorini @ Nov. 05 2007,6:25 pm)
QUOTE
Does anyone know if public schools are mandated to fund extra curriculars? Music..sports..band??
Just curious because how nice it would be if these could be community-based and sponsored by business's thus taking some of the stress off of the academic budget. ?? Just curious.
Just curious because how nice it would be if these could be community-based and sponsored by business's thus taking some of the stress off of the academic budget. ?? Just curious.
Ahhhh. The Mrs. Gerry's Football Potato Heads. I wonder what kind of cheers we could hear on Friday night?
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 06 2007,8:33 pm
(forsure @ Nov. 05 2007,7:35 pm)
QUOTE
Maybie we should vote what we were all taught in school"Just say NO" HMMMMMMMM :cool:
That was for drugs, and the drug problem hasn't gone away.
Posted by forsure on Nov. 06 2007,8:36 pm
This will be interesting!
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 06 2007,8:37 pm
(busybee @ Nov. 05 2007,9:53 pm)
QUOTE
So, how did TEAM get my 3 year old's name and address? How about new phone numbers that TEAM has called parents on, who just informed the school at enrollment time of a number change?
That just seems like it is too easy.
That just seems like it is too easy.
I am an extremely political person with many years in the business. It is as easy as asking someone who know's you. I will not let my best methods out at this time.
Posted by forsure on Nov. 06 2007,8:41 pm
Bianca, I do believe you have ruffled some feathers!
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 06 2007,8:52 pm
(Liberal @ Nov. 06 2007,7:01 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Education however is a people business and stats may not always be the best judge of what to do.
Judge Smails: Ty, what did you shoot today?
Ty Webb: Oh, Judge, I don't keep score.
Judge Smails: Then how do you measure yourself with other golfers?
Ty Webb: By height.
Excellent!!! :D
Posted by january on Nov. 06 2007,9:01 pm
Someone back a few pages asked how he thought some of us felt this thing was going.Polls are closed.
My prediction is that yes, yes will win TODAY
But my prediction is also that LEARN has won over the long haul. You have done what no one before you EVER has.
A group of people took on the powerful, the mighty, the powers that be and they got a substantive message out to the voters. They did it in a thoughtful conscious way. They did it with very little money. They did not bully or strong arm anyone. They let the facts speak for themselves
Their tri-folds were stellar.
Parents, grandparents, concerned citizens know what No Child Left Behind is, they know what Minnesota Comprehensive Test II is, they know what Adequate Yearly Progress is, they know how to get onto the Minnesota Dept of Education website, they know what the ACT scores mean.
The Board and the Administation has no choice but to become much more transparent.
Good job!!!
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 06 2007,9:59 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 06 2007,8:16 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
If this passes, I will be congratulating them for having a winning campaign strategy.
A winning campaign strategy? That says a lot about the difference between you and I. And I hope that I never become as callous as you sound. Their campaign stunk in every which way. They stooped to lower levels than I ever thought possible to get their agenda passed.
One thing is for sure though....
QUOTE
But the reason I can't is because your definition of "hurt" is so vastly different from mine.
and I thank God for that. Good thing you never bash. Sounds like sour grapes. Maybe because Brookside numbers are 2 to 1 yes?
Posted by Liberal on Nov. 06 2007,10:04 pm
60% yes on question #158% yes on question #2
Two polling places left to count
According to KAAL
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,10:16 pm
It's funny how the news stations differ KIMT just said it was too close to call
Posted by wildjim on Nov. 06 2007,10:26 pm
That is too close to call since it has wards 1 and 3 in
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 06 2007,10:32 pm
Parents, grandparents, and concerned citizens should also know that teachers can teach but it doesn't mean that children will learn. The best way to make sure the children you care about learn is to be involved and interested in their progress on a regular basis. A large part of the problem is that many people expect this to happen but show little interest in the mental development of these children, for them the interest is more of a baby sitting relationship. That is until they see the test scores or there is some consequence for a school not meeting AYP. When kids come home wanting to see how what they were taught relates to the world, and those at home haven't a clue, don't care, or won't take the time. many children will take the response as meaning there is little value in learning it. If you don't read to children and have them read to you, but place them in front of tube hoping that they do not disturb you, you shouldn't blame the schools for the child's poor performance on his tests.I am not a teacher, but I have worked with kids after school in many different settings for many years. I can't tell you how many kids don't get any feedback at home, are left to feed themselves what they can find with very little if any parental interaction. It is amazing to see how a little time with some of these children can bring them to life, and disheartening to see potential slide away as they go back into unenriched, and abusive environments.
During the summers I have been camping with groups of kids. Every summer their are kids that are over sugared and out of control. It can take as long as three days of regular some what balanced meals to calm them down so that they can get anything out of the experience. To a person I have been told how much they have enjoyed the experience, and I can't help but think how much more they would have enjoyed it if they had been in shape at the start of the week. How much more every one would have gotten from the week if they had been in better shape at the beginning of the trip.
That being said, it really gets to me that some of you want to play the blame game with the schools for lack of progress when there are so many parents failing to provide environments that would nurture the efforts the schools attempt to provide these children. When all you want is baby sitting, don't expect AYP!
So now when some of our schools failed to meet the NCLB and the AYP, some bright people in this community feel that the solution is to underfund the education system.
Posted by Santorini on Nov. 06 2007,10:32 pm
(Stand44 @ Nov. 06 2007,8:31 pm)
QUOTE
(Santorini @ Nov. 05 2007,6:25 pm)
QUOTE
Does anyone know if public schools are mandated to fund extra curriculars? Music..sports..band??
Just curious because how nice it would be if these could be community-based and sponsored by business's thus taking some of the stress off of the academic budget. ?? Just curious.
Just curious because how nice it would be if these could be community-based and sponsored by business's thus taking some of the stress off of the academic budget. ?? Just curious.
Ahhhh. The Mrs. Gerry's Football Potato Heads. I wonder what kind of cheers we could hear on Friday night?
Stand 44, are you for real??
You are the shining example of why people do not want to be involved in this community. People like you with very little substance find pleasure in ridicule. Does this approach somehow make you feel superior?
It is wonderful that your referendum passed. Now if this referendum for "the kids" will somehow, magically, help them pass their tests all will be happy. Cause remember, in just a couple short years if they don't meet AYP, this referendum won't matter cause another entity will come in to take over your school and everyone involved with NCLB will be left behind.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,10:35 pm
KAAL just said 62% yes58% no
with two wards left.......could be a late night.
Posted by The Coach on Nov. 06 2007,10:43 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 06 2007,10:35 pm)
QUOTE
KAAL just said 62% yes
58% no
with two wards left.......could be a late night.
58% no
with two wards left.......could be a late night.
I heard that too, problem is, 62 + 58 is 120%
Who's running the calculator over there? Botto?
At the beginning of their cast, didn't they report 62% Yes on question 1 and 58% Yes on question 2?
Also noticed that whoever the reporter was didn't have question 1 right, when she was introducing "Dave" Prescott, she said question 1 was to keep the current amount.
Which polling places haven't reported yet? Last year whatever precincts reported last tipped the balance against the referendum, so it isn't over yet by any means.
Posted by Santorini on Nov. 06 2007,10:51 pm
(Alfy Packer @ Nov. 06 2007,10:32 pm)
QUOTE
Parents, grandparents, and concerned citizens should also know that teachers can teach but it doesn't mean that children will learn. The best way to make sure the children you care about learn is to be involved and interested in their progress on a regular basis. A large part of the problem is that many people expect this to happen but show little interest in the mental development of these children, for them the interest is more of a baby sitting relationship. That is until they see the test scores or there is some consequence for a school not meeting AYP. When kids come home wanting to see how what they were taught relates to the world, and those at home haven't a clue, don't care, or won't take the time. many children will take the response as meaning there is little value in learning it. If you don't read to children and have them read to you, but place them in front of tube hoping that they do not disturb you, you shouldn't blame the school the child's poor performance on his tests.
I am not a teacher, but I have worked with kids after school in many different settings for many years. I can't tell you how many kids don't get any feedback at home, are left to feed themselves what they can find with very little if any parental interaction. It is amazing to see how a little time with some of these children can bring them to life, and disheartening to see potential slide away as they go back into unenriched, and abusive environments.
During the summers I have been camping with groups of kids. Every summer their are kids that are over sugared and out of control. It can take as long as three days of regular some what balanced meals to calm them down so that they can get anything out of the experience. To a person I have been told how much they have enjoyed the experience, and I can't help but think how much more they would have enjoyed it if they had been in shape at the start of the week. How much more every one would have gotten from the week if they had been in better shape at the beginning of the trip.
That being said, it really gets to me that some of you want to play the blame game with the schools for lack of progress when there are so many parents failing to provide environments that would nurture the efforts the schools attempt to provide these children. When all you want is baby sitting, don't expect AYP!
So now when some of our schools failed to meet the NCLB and the AYP, some bright people in this community feel that the solution is to underfund the education system.
I am not a teacher, but I have worked with kids after school in many different settings for many years. I can't tell you how many kids don't get any feedback at home, are left to feed themselves what they can find with very little if any parental interaction. It is amazing to see how a little time with some of these children can bring them to life, and disheartening to see potential slide away as they go back into unenriched, and abusive environments.
During the summers I have been camping with groups of kids. Every summer their are kids that are over sugared and out of control. It can take as long as three days of regular some what balanced meals to calm them down so that they can get anything out of the experience. To a person I have been told how much they have enjoyed the experience, and I can't help but think how much more they would have enjoyed it if they had been in shape at the start of the week. How much more every one would have gotten from the week if they had been in better shape at the beginning of the trip.
That being said, it really gets to me that some of you want to play the blame game with the schools for lack of progress when there are so many parents failing to provide environments that would nurture the efforts the schools attempt to provide these children. When all you want is baby sitting, don't expect AYP!
So now when some of our schools failed to meet the NCLB and the AYP, some bright people in this community feel that the solution is to underfund the education system.
It is exactly the point you were attempting to make...why reward poor performance?
Typically, raises are EARNED not handed over.
Might I also suggest perhaps additional diversity training for the teachers, admin., aides, within the school system. This diversity training could aid people, such as yourself, become more familiar with today's plethora of issues facing not only teachers but THE KIDS, and assist YOU with gaining the compassion and motivation needed to help these kids help themselves be successful. Don't ever underestimate a child and his/her abilities, for given the chance they will never cease to amaze you. Plus, you're going on the assumption that all these kids have a home to go to.
Posted by corvetteman on Nov. 06 2007,10:52 pm
From the AL Tribune 10:50 - Three of six polling places have delivered their totals and the Albert Lea school levy seems to be winning on both questions.
On the first question, 2,163 voted yes and 1,347 voted no. That equates to 62 percent in favor of the measure.
On the second question, 2,209 voted yes and 1,419 voted no. That's 61 percent in favor.
Doesn't sound all that close! This includes Brookside
Posted by JeffJimenez on Nov. 06 2007,10:53 pm
Stacy Lillenthal was the reporter from KAAL.
Posted by bianca on Nov. 06 2007,10:57 pm
What's left? Hayward and
Posted by corvetteman on Nov. 06 2007,10:59 pm
Hayward, Hollandale and Brookside are in. Here's HaywardOn the first question, 131 voters voted yes and 111 voted no. Two ballots were blank.
On the second question, 128 voted yes and 112 voted no, with four blank ballots.
Voting at the Hayward Community Hall were be residents of Hayward, Oakland Township and Hayward Township; 244 people voted. The results were tabulated at 9:05 p.m.
Posted by corvetteman on Nov. 06 2007,11:08 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 06 2007,6:26 pm)
QUOTE
These polls on here usually are more for conversation and debate than anything. As you can see though that this thread alone got over 40,000 views/hits. Obviously not everyone posted but it is and was another avenue to get information.
or misinformation as has frequently been the case.
Posted by corvetteman on Nov. 06 2007,11:11 pm
Tuesday, November 6, 2007 11:08 PM CST A fourth polling place has results for the Albert Lea school levy tonight.
People voting at the Clarks Grove polling place favored the levy.
On the first question, 414 voted yes and 335 voted no.
On the second question, 379 voted yes and 365 voted no.
For those keeping score...that's 61% on question 1 and 57% on question 2 with 4 precints in.
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 06 2007,11:31 pm
(The Coach @ Nov. 06 2007,10:43 pm)
QUOTE
(bianca @ Nov. 06 2007,10:35 pm)
QUOTE
KAAL just said 62% yes
58% no
with two wards left.......could be a late night.
58% no
with two wards left.......could be a late night.
I heard that too, problem is, 62 + 58 is 120%
Who's running the calculator over there? Botto?
At the beginning of their cast, didn't they report 62% Yes on question 1 and 58% Yes on question 2?
No, I run this bad boy.
Posted by Santorini on Nov. 06 2007,11:34 pm
(Stand44 @ Nov. 06 2007,8:52 pm)
QUOTE
(Liberal @ Nov. 06 2007,7:01 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Education however is a people business and stats may not always be the best judge of what to do.
Judge Smails: Ty, what did you shoot today?
Ty Webb: Oh, Judge, I don't keep score.
Judge Smails: Then how do you measure yourself with other golfers?
Ty Webb: By height.
Excellent!!!
Group Stand 44,
You got your referendum. Congratulations!
You have been given another chance...don't waste it.
You may not like the score-keeping but Big Brother IS watching you...and he isn't going to go away anytime soon!
Posted by Febreze on Nov. 07 2007,12:36 am
It will be wasted, then in another 2 to 4 years there will be another one.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 07 2007,1:04 am
(Santorini @ Nov. 06 2007,10:51 pm)
QUOTE
Don't ever underestimate a child and his/her abilities, for given the chance they will never cease to amaze you. Plus, you're going on the assumption that all these kids have a home to go to.
I want my kids teacher to have a teaching license. You know. Maybe a k-6 license or a middle school license, or a 7-12 subject license. Even a k12 specialist license. I DO NOT WANT MY TEACHER TO HAVE A SUBSTITUTE PARENT LICENSE. THAT IS MY JOB! Educators have more than enough to deal with. Do we really want them to be acting as parents to our students too?
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 07 2007,1:09 am
(Santorini @ Nov. 06 2007,11:34 pm)
QUOTE
(Stand44 @ Nov. 06 2007,8:52 pm)
QUOTE
(Liberal @ Nov. 06 2007,7:01 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Education however is a people business and stats may not always be the best judge of what to do.
Judge Smails: Ty, what did you shoot today?
Ty Webb: Oh, Judge, I don't keep score.
Judge Smails: Then how do you measure yourself with other golfers?
Ty Webb: By height.
Excellent!!! :D
Group Stand 44,
You got your referendum. Congratulations!
You have been given another chance...don't waste it.
You may not like the score-keeping but Big Brother IS watching you...and he isn't going to go away anytime soon!
Where was Big Brother during 11 of the last 12 months. Oh yeah ... out there ensuring accountability for our school system right?
Posted by busybee on Nov. 07 2007,5:57 am
QUOTE
Where was Big Brother during 11 of the last 12 months. Oh yeah ... out there ensuring accountability for our school system right?
What gives you the right to assert a concept that others haven't cared enough about accountability because you believe you hold the sole definition of what people who want accountability should have been doing for the past year?
The fact is...this referendum should create a thought provoking process and expression from people. One should expect to hear more ideas and opinions than usual when it comes to accountability in our public school system, not only financially, but academically as well.
Passing judgement on others for not expressing themselves EXACTLY the way you think they should have during a specified time frame of the past, or for lack of an involvement level that you EXPECT everyone should have by your definition, is not a valid reason for you to discredit these expressions.
You are not the judge and jury on what qualifies others to express themselves on issues involving education. There are many parents, grandparents, family, business owners and community members that do not "qualify" by your definition, but that hardly equates to them having to give up their rights to express their concerns, ideas and opinions, yesterday, today or tomorrow.
Posted by TameThaTane on Nov. 07 2007,6:01 am
Can we officially close and lock this thread now?
Posted by JeffJimenez on Nov. 07 2007,7:30 am
AMEN!
Posted by busybee on Nov. 07 2007,8:04 am
QUOTE
(Santorini @ Nov. 06 2007,10:51 pm)
Don't ever underestimate a child and his/her abilities, for given the chance they will never cease to amaze you. Plus, you're going on the assumption that all these kids have a home to go to.
I want my kids teacher to have a teaching license. You know. Maybe a k-6 license or a middle school license, or a 7-12 subject license. Even a k12 specialist license. I DO NOT WANT MY TEACHER TO HAVE A SUBSTITUTE PARENT LICENSE. THAT IS MY JOB! Educators have more than enough to deal with. Do we really want them to be acting as parents to our students too?
QUOTE
Don't ever underestimate a child and his/her abilities, for given the chance they will never cease to amaze you. Plus, you're going on the assumption that all these kids have a home to go to.
I want my kids teacher to have a teaching license. You know. Maybe a k-6 license or a middle school license, or a 7-12 subject license. Even a k12 specialist license. I DO NOT WANT MY TEACHER TO HAVE A SUBSTITUTE PARENT LICENSE. THAT IS MY JOB! Educators have more than enough to deal with. Do we really want them to be acting as parents to our students too?
Is it your assumption and interpretation that parents of students who don't make the grade only care about teachers having a babysitting/part-time parenting license?
Is it your assumption that anyone who would make such a positive statement about student abilities and having the right to be seen as deserving of support and opportunites by educators should be negated because of your negative opinion of parents?
Talk about passing the buck.
If YOU would stop blaming everyone else...students, parents, and anyone who attempts to challenge the public educational system as it is, you actually might be able to notice some very unique problems that exist in the educational system that do in FACT affect the achievement of students.
For example, I have made my point very clear on here that I believe it is essential to address the DROP in achievement levels from elementary to high school.
You can attempt to pass the "problem" of acheivement level decline at the high school level on everyone else and claim "helplessness" of educators to do anything different or better because of some over-glamorized failures of everyone but them.
It's always been this way. It was this way when I went to high school, as it was when I attended college and graduated over 15 years ago in the education field, as it was when I was teaching and today as I elect to focus on my children, rather than my career.
The FACT is, this shift in blame is created by the public educational systems philosophy of education. THEY ARE THE LEADERS...STUDENTS, PARENTS, EDUCATORS AND COMMUNITY MEMBERS ARE THE FOLLOWERS.
If there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY in the philosophy of education at the high school level, (or for any grade level achievement without an apparent student disability)if there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY at the district level, if there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY at the board level & curriculum board level, if there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY placed on anyone except parents and students, you can expect NO ACCOUNTABILITY from them either, thus, no improvement, no change, no focus...just the same old same old.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 07 2007,8:07 am
Sorry TTT & Jeff. I have 4 kids who keep me pretty busy...so sometimes it takes me a while to finish my posts and send them.
Posted by albertleamom on Nov. 07 2007,8:13 am
Thanks to all the members of LEARN! You guys did a great job and you should be proud! Do i get a prize for starting the longest thread? ha ha
Posted by bianca on Nov. 07 2007,9:39 am
What a great turnout we can all be proud of. Congratulations District 241, TEAM and the school board. Please continue to keep the students and taxpayers in mind and be able to come through on the promises you have made for the students, the economy and our community as a whole.
I would still like the district to really think about televising the school board meetings for the people who can't make the meetings. A lot of people work nights, this would give the tax payers an opportunity to watch when they can and see the decisions being made. I hope this could be something that could be put into the budget.
IMO,This thread could sometimes get to be heated but I'd like to believe it is/was because we all care so deeply. With caring comes stong emotions and varied opinions. The votes have been totalled and the voters have spoken and now we need to just go from there.
Posted by caseynielsen on Nov. 07 2007,10:07 am
Congratulations TEAM QUOTE
I would still like the district to really think about televising the school board meetings for the people who can't make the meetings. A lot of people work nights, this would give the tax payers an opportunity to watch when they can and see the decisions being made. I hope this could be something that could be put into the budget.
I think that's a really great idea. Have you brought it up to anyone yet?
Posted by january on Nov. 07 2007,10:50 am
BusybeeExcellent post. Your writing is powerful.
Posted by january on Nov. 07 2007,10:52 am
Bianca:That is a really great idea.
Posted by hymiebravo on Nov. 07 2007,12:04 pm
(Alfy Packer @ Nov. 06 2007,10:32 pm)
QUOTE
Parents, grandparents, and concerned citizens should also know that teachers can teach but it doesn't mean that children will learn. The best way to make sure the children you care about learn is to be involved and interested in their progress on a regular basis. A large part of the problem is that many people expect this to happen but show little interest in the mental development of these children, for them the interest is more of a baby sitting relationship. That is until they see the test scores or there is some consequence for a school not meeting AYP. When kids come home wanting to see how what they were taught relates to the world, and those at home haven't a clue, don't care, or won't take the time. many children will take the response as meaning there is little value in learning it. If you don't read to children and have them read to you, but place them in front of tube hoping that they do not disturb you, you shouldn't blame the schools for the child's poor performance on his tests.
I am not a teacher, but I have worked with kids after school in many different settings for many years. I can't tell you how many kids don't get any feedback at home, are left to feed themselves what they can find with very little if any parental interaction. It is amazing to see how a little time with some of these children can bring them to life, and disheartening to see potential slide away as they go back into unenriched, and abusive environments.
During the summers I have been camping with groups of kids. Every summer their are kids that are over sugared and out of control. It can take as long as three days of regular some what balanced meals to calm them down so that they can get anything out of the experience. To a person I have been told how much they have enjoyed the experience, and I can't help but think how much more they would have enjoyed it if they had been in shape at the start of the week. How much more every one would have gotten from the week if they had been in better shape at the beginning of the trip.
That being said, it really gets to me that some of you want to play the blame game with the schools for lack of progress when there are so many parents failing to provide environments that would nurture the efforts the schools attempt to provide these children. When all you want is baby sitting, don't expect AYP!
So now when some of our schools failed to meet the NCLB and the AYP, some bright people in this community feel that the solution is to underfund the education system.
I am not a teacher, but I have worked with kids after school in many different settings for many years. I can't tell you how many kids don't get any feedback at home, are left to feed themselves what they can find with very little if any parental interaction. It is amazing to see how a little time with some of these children can bring them to life, and disheartening to see potential slide away as they go back into unenriched, and abusive environments.
During the summers I have been camping with groups of kids. Every summer their are kids that are over sugared and out of control. It can take as long as three days of regular some what balanced meals to calm them down so that they can get anything out of the experience. To a person I have been told how much they have enjoyed the experience, and I can't help but think how much more they would have enjoyed it if they had been in shape at the start of the week. How much more every one would have gotten from the week if they had been in better shape at the beginning of the trip.
That being said, it really gets to me that some of you want to play the blame game with the schools for lack of progress when there are so many parents failing to provide environments that would nurture the efforts the schools attempt to provide these children. When all you want is baby sitting, don't expect AYP!
So now when some of our schools failed to meet the NCLB and the AYP, some bright people in this community feel that the solution is to underfund the education system.
Yes this coming from the guy who basically said that his vote had been determined by what the guy with the " big Yellow sign " was advocating.
Your right about the other stuff though.
That won't be changed by money though.
Thinking and good ideas are the solution to those sorts of problems.
IMO
Posted by hymiebravo on Nov. 07 2007,12:07 pm
Speaking of which...Isn't the " big yellow sign" basically the harbinger of doom to what ever the message is on it ? lol
Posted by Santorini on Nov. 07 2007,1:35 pm
(Stand44 @ Nov. 07 2007,1:04 am)
QUOTE
(Santorini @ Nov. 06 2007,10:51 pm)
QUOTE
Don't ever underestimate a child and his/her abilities, for given the chance they will never cease to amaze you. Plus, you're going on the assumption that all these kids have a home to go to.
I want my kids teacher to have a teaching license. You know. Maybe a k-6 license or a middle school license, or a 7-12 subject license. Even a k12 specialist license. I DO NOT WANT MY TEACHER TO HAVE A SUBSTITUTE PARENT LICENSE. THAT IS MY JOB! Educators have more than enough to deal with. Do we really want them to be acting as parents to our students too?
Just curious,...then why can your child be given birth control without your knowledge at school? Isn't that the parent's job to parent, as you say, and the school's to teach academics?
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 07 2007,4:03 pm
QUOTE
Yes this coming from the guy who basically said that his vote had been determined by what the guy with the " big Yellow sign " was advocating.
I didn't start out as an advocate for the referendum. I didn't feel that the community need this add tax burden on property. I felt that the State Legislator and the Governor had failed us last session, but was perfectly willing to wait for next session for them to get it right. It wasn't until seeing the message on one of Mal's signs that the cord was struck. About the same time I became aware that we could not wait for another maybe from the state next year, and as unfair as the added property tax may be, it would be less fair for the students in District 241 to not support the referendum. My statement that I made last night was something I have been feeling for years, and choose to write about it after bianca questioned if I did anything with kids. I originally answered only yes, that I did, but after reading how her intention to vote "No, No" was for the kids, I had to let it out.
So to answer you, I did want to vote for the referendum, but just didn't feel that I could live with voting "No, No" after seeing Mal's sign that bemoaned how the referendum was screwing the rich.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 07 2007,4:15 pm
QUOTE
I didn't start out as an advocate for the referendum. I didn't feel that the community need this add tax burden on property. I felt that the State Legislator and the Governor had failed us last session, but was perfectly willing to wait for next session for them to get it right. It wasn't until seeing the message on one of Mal's signs that the cord was struck.
I'm not sure if I should take that as a "flip flop" or you're admitting you voted your emotions.That's O.K., as some would say, admitting your a liberal is the first step.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 07 2007,4:24 pm
No, I vote my priorities and sometime they take time to sort out. Sometimes people getting in your face helps clear the fog!
Posted by katlade on Nov. 07 2007,4:25 pm
(Alfy Packer @ Nov. 07 2007,4:03 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Yes this coming from the guy who basically said that his vote had been determined by what the guy with the " big Yellow sign " was advocating.
I didn't start out as an advocate for the referendum. I didn't feel that the community need this add tax burden on property. I felt that the State Legislator and the Governor had failed us last session, but was perfectly willing to wait for next session for them to get it right. It wasn't until seeing the message on one of Mal's signs that the cord was struck. About the same time I became aware that we could not wait for another maybe from the state next year, and as unfair as the added property tax may be, it would be less fair for the students in District 241 to not support the referendum. My statement that I made last night was something I have been feeling for years, and choose to write about it after bianca questioned if I did anything with kids. I originally answered only yes, that I did, but after reading how her intention to vote "No, No" was for the kids, I had to let it out.
So to answer you, I did want to vote for the referendum, but just didn't feel that I could live with voting "No, No" after seeing Mal's sign that bemoaned how the referendum was screwing the rich.
I guess Mal does not realize that alot of people would like to "screw the rich financially". He is just as bad as the folks using their authority to tell people how to vote or the ones expressing that if you voted no you didn't care about the kids. He didn't help LEARN who were trying to be fair and balanced. As far as I can tell he puts alot of people off which had the opposite affect of what he wanted.
And talk about a vulgar sign. Can't he find a better way to express himself?
Never mind. I don't know what I was thinking.
Posted by january on Nov. 07 2007,6:06 pm
The referendum has passed.The real work for the Admin/School Board begins now.
There are now people that understand standarized testing, ACT scores, Adequate Yearly Progress, Minnesota Comprehensive Assessment II and No Child Left Behind, that a few short weeks ago did not know anything like this existed.
There are people that now know to go to the Minnesota Dept of Education web site as an information center to garner objective data.
I along with countless others will be watching closely test scores, comparisons, etc. especially how this District compares to State averages.
I hope that lessons learned during this pre-referendum debate has enlightened us all to the needs of the kids.
I hope I will never again hear an administrator of the make-up MCA II tests telling the taxpayers that students are merely putting their name down and turning in a blank test and he can't blame them for it.
Take your responsibilities seriously. Be a good steward of this most valuable resource, our children.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 07 2007,10:33 pm
(busybee @ Nov. 07 2007,5:57 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Where was Big Brother during 11 of the last 12 months. Oh yeah ... out there ensuring accountability for our school system right?
What gives you the right to assert a concept that others haven't cared enough about accountability because you believe you hold the sole definition of what people who want accountability should have been doing for the past year?
The fact is...this referendum should create a thought provoking process and expression from people. One should expect to hear more ideas and opinions than usual when it comes to accountability in our public school system, not only financially, but academically as well.
Passing judgement on others for not expressing themselves EXACTLY the way you think they should have during a specified time frame of the past, or for lack of an involvement level that you EXPECT everyone should have by your definition, is not a valid reason for you to discredit these expressions.
You are not the judge and jury on what qualifies others to express themselves on issues involving education. There are many parents, grandparents, family, business owners and community members that do not "qualify" by your definition, but that hardly equates to them having to give up their rights to express their concerns, ideas and opinions, yesterday, today or tomorrow.
Grow UP BB! You and I disagree! That's great! I appreciate other points of view! I f I find things to be hypocritical I say so. If you find them hypocritical, I expect you to say so.
I have found the idea that we should have voted NO and then spend the next year fixing the problem and holding great debate hypocritical as this did not happen in the 11 months since last years failed REF. Why would I think it would happen now. Only in the last month has anyone, with any amount of force, publicly asked for accountability.
I choose to believe that the people from learn didn't just wake up one day and decide accountability was important. I believe that TL (and company) has wanted accountability for a long time. Good for them! I appreciate that more than you can possibly understand. But I also don't fault anyone who finds the efforts of LEARN to be disingenuous as these public efforts came at a time when taxes might be raised. People have said throughout this strand that this REF was coming. Dr. P said so last year. Where was the effort for accountability until just a month or so ago?
As for being the sole holder of a definition or whatever you were trying to say, I am not Daniel Webster. I have never claimed to be Daniel Webster., I hold to no definition as you speak.
Have a nice day!
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 07 2007,10:41 pm
(busybee @ Nov. 07 2007,8:04 am)
QUOTE
I want my kids teacher to have a teaching license. You know. Maybe a k-6 license or a middle school license, or a 7-12 subject license. Even a k12 specialist license. I DO NOT WANT MY TEACHER TO HAVE A SUBSTITUTE PARENT LICENSE. THAT IS MY JOB! Educators have more than enough to deal with. Do we really want them to be acting as parents to our students too?[/quote]
Is it your assumption and interpretation that parents of students who don't make the grade only care about teachers having a babysitting/part-time parenting license?
Is it your assumption that anyone who would make such a positive statement about student abilities and having the right to be seen as deserving of support and opportunites by educators should be negated because of your negative opinion of parents?
Talk about passing the buck.
If YOU would stop blaming everyone else...students, parents, and anyone who attempts to challenge the public educational system as it is, you actually might be able to notice some very unique problems that exist in the educational system that do in FACT affect the achievement of students.
For example, I have made my point very clear on here that I believe it is essential to address the DROP in achievement levels from elementary to high school.
You can attempt to pass the "problem" of acheivement level decline at the high school level on everyone else and claim "helplessness" of educators to do anything different or better because of some over-glamorized failures of everyone but them.
It's always been this way. It was this way when I went to high school, as it was when I attended college and graduated over 15 years ago in the education field, as it was when I was teaching and today as I elect to focus on my children, rather than my career.
The FACT is, this shift in blame is created by the public educational systems philosophy of education. THEY ARE THE LEADERS...STUDENTS, PARENTS, EDUCATORS AND COMMUNITY MEMBERS ARE THE FOLLOWERS.
If there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY in the philosophy of education at the high school level, (or for any grade level achievement without an apparent student disability)if there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY at the district level, if there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY at the board level & curriculum board level, if there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY placed on anyone except parents and students, you can expect NO ACCOUNTABILITY from them either, thus, no improvement, no change, no focus...just the same old same old.
Is it your assumption and interpretation that parents of students who don't make the grade only care about teachers having a babysitting/part-time parenting license?
Is it your assumption that anyone who would make such a positive statement about student abilities and having the right to be seen as deserving of support and opportunites by educators should be negated because of your negative opinion of parents?
Talk about passing the buck.
If YOU would stop blaming everyone else...students, parents, and anyone who attempts to challenge the public educational system as it is, you actually might be able to notice some very unique problems that exist in the educational system that do in FACT affect the achievement of students.
For example, I have made my point very clear on here that I believe it is essential to address the DROP in achievement levels from elementary to high school.
You can attempt to pass the "problem" of acheivement level decline at the high school level on everyone else and claim "helplessness" of educators to do anything different or better because of some over-glamorized failures of everyone but them.
It's always been this way. It was this way when I went to high school, as it was when I attended college and graduated over 15 years ago in the education field, as it was when I was teaching and today as I elect to focus on my children, rather than my career.
The FACT is, this shift in blame is created by the public educational systems philosophy of education. THEY ARE THE LEADERS...STUDENTS, PARENTS, EDUCATORS AND COMMUNITY MEMBERS ARE THE FOLLOWERS.
If there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY in the philosophy of education at the high school level, (or for any grade level achievement without an apparent student disability)if there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY at the district level, if there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY at the board level & curriculum board level, if there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY placed on anyone except parents and students, you can expect NO ACCOUNTABILITY from them either, thus, no improvement, no change, no focus...just the same old same old.
BB,
I don't even know where to begin, so I will just say this. I responded to another persons thought that I took as: schools may be failing because some kids don't have positive home lives to go to, and the school district needs to do more. That may or may not have been the intended message, but that is how I read it. therefore my point is (and was) I DO NOT EXPECT, NOR WANT TEACHERS TO PARENT ANY CHILD BU THEIR OWN!
If you were an educator I am guessing you taught Art. You have a great ability to get CREATIVE with my thoughts.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 07 2007,10:45 pm
(Santorini @ Nov. 07 2007,1:35 pm)
QUOTE
(Stand44 @ Nov. 07 2007,1:04 am)
QUOTE
(Santorini @ Nov. 06 2007,10:51 pm)
QUOTE
Don't ever underestimate a child and his/her abilities, for given the chance they will never cease to amaze you. Plus, you're going on the assumption that all these kids have a home to go to.
I want my kids teacher to have a teaching license. You know. Maybe a k-6 license or a middle school license, or a 7-12 subject license. Even a k12 specialist license. I DO NOT WANT MY TEACHER TO HAVE A SUBSTITUTE PARENT LICENSE. THAT IS MY JOB! Educators have more than enough to deal with. Do we really want them to be acting as parents to our students too?
Just curious,...then why can your child be given birth control without your knowledge at school? Isn't that the parent's job to parent, as you say, and the school's to teach academics?
I don't want my child being given any drugs at school without my consent. That is a parents job. Why would you think i was in favor of such a thing?
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 07 2007,10:51 pm
(january @ Nov. 07 2007,6:06 pm)
QUOTE
The referendum has passed.
The real work for the Admin/School Board begins now.
There are now people that understand standarized testing, ACT scores, Adequate Yearly Progress, Minnesota Comprehensive Assessment II and No Child Left Behind, that a few short weeks ago did not know anything like this existed.
There are people that now know to go to the Minnesota Dept of Education web site as an information center to garner objective data.
I along with countless others will be watching closely test scores, comparisons, etc. especially how this District compares to State averages.
I hope that lessons learned during this pre-referendum debate has enlightened us all to the needs of the kids.
I hope I will never again hear an administrator of the make-up MCA II tests telling the taxpayers that students are merely putting their name down and turning in a blank test and he can't blame them for it.
Take your responsibilities seriously. Be a good steward of this most valuable resource, our children.
The real work for the Admin/School Board begins now.
There are now people that understand standarized testing, ACT scores, Adequate Yearly Progress, Minnesota Comprehensive Assessment II and No Child Left Behind, that a few short weeks ago did not know anything like this existed.
There are people that now know to go to the Minnesota Dept of Education web site as an information center to garner objective data.
I along with countless others will be watching closely test scores, comparisons, etc. especially how this District compares to State averages.
I hope that lessons learned during this pre-referendum debate has enlightened us all to the needs of the kids.
I hope I will never again hear an administrator of the make-up MCA II tests telling the taxpayers that students are merely putting their name down and turning in a blank test and he can't blame them for it.
Take your responsibilities seriously. Be a good steward of this most valuable resource, our children.
Great post until the last two lines.
That person administers a test 1 time, to kids that are vaguely familiar at best and total strangers at worst. What would you have had the person in that role do to get kids to take a 4 hour test that affects them not at all? Seriously. What is the solution to this problem?
Posted by bianca on Nov. 08 2007,7:08 am
QUOTE
That person administers a test 1 time, to kids that are vaguely familiar at best and total strangers at worst. What would you have had the person in that role do to get kids to take a 4 hour test that affects them not at all? Seriously. What is the solution to this problem?
This right here is exactly where the problem lies. Education ALWAYS affects people and ALWAYS matters. IMO,This statement of yours is a "cop out" and I hope you are not educating my students in my family with this kind of "it doesn't matter anyway" mentality.
If there is an obstacle in making a job better don't make someone else figure it out for you or give up on it, figure it out yourself. But the first thing that you have to realize that it is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A "WASTED FOUR HOURS" THAT "DOESN'T MATTER."
Did you ever stop to think that maybe the kids might get that impression from the educators and then really feel like it is a "waste of time" for them? Every test we take in life matters even if we don't like taking them sometimes.
Posted by Alfy Packer on Nov. 08 2007,8:04 am
QUOTE
schools may be failing because some kids don't have positive home lives to go to, and the school district needs to do more.
Get real, that wasn't what was stated or implied. I was asking how can anyone but a
think that test scores will improve, NCLB will work better when funding is reduced below current levels? How does larger class sizes, fewer class offerings, and shuttering school buildings create the improvement needed? Point blank, IT DOESN'T! All could do would be to accelerate the decline. As I saw it this referendum wasn't about doing more, it was about not doing less. When your car averages 20 miles to a gallon, it is foolish to expect it to make that 20 mile trip on less than a gallon of gas. Then there is the hypocrisy of stating one's "NO No" vote was for the children also blew me away.
"Johnny, your school is having problems meeting AYP so I'm going to withhold funding of your education because I love you so much! Study hard now Johnny, Mommy loves you."
The poor test results are a big problem the school district needs to address and improve upon. How ever I was saying that if a parent, grandparent or other interested person are truly interested in helping see that their children are not part of the problem, and aren't being left behind, there are things they can do to improve the odds of success. I guess I further stated that we have some parents in the district who have damaged their children, and the numbers of these children are affecting a number of the schools in our district by being a distraction to the basic mission of these schools.
Posted by ICU812 on Nov. 08 2007,8:34 am
QUOTE
How does larger class sizes, fewer class offerings, and school buildings create the improvement needed? Point blank, IT DOESN'T!
How does SMALLER class sizes, MORE class offerings and school buildings create the improvement needed?
Point blank, IT DOESN'T!
How does throwing more money at schools improve a child education? Because of the increase in funding will Johnny's grades improve, will Mary's grades improve?
Posted by Santorini on Nov. 08 2007,10:18 am
(Stand44 @ Nov. 07 2007,10:33 pm)
QUOTE
(busybee @ Nov. 07 2007,5:57 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Where was Big Brother during 11 of the last 12 months. Oh yeah ... out there ensuring accountability for our school system right?
What gives you the right to assert a concept that others haven't cared enough about accountability because you believe you hold the sole definition of what people who want accountability should have been doing for the past year?
The fact is...this referendum should create a thought provoking process and expression from people. One should expect to hear more ideas and opinions than usual when it comes to accountability in our public school system, not only financially, but academically as well.
Passing judgement on others for not expressing themselves EXACTLY the way you think they should have during a specified time frame of the past, or for lack of an involvement level that you EXPECT everyone should have by your definition, is not a valid reason for you to discredit these expressions.
You are not the judge and jury on what qualifies others to express themselves on issues involving education. There are many parents, grandparents, family, business owners and community members that do not "qualify" by your definition, but that hardly equates to them having to give up their rights to express their concerns, ideas and opinions, yesterday, today or tomorrow.
Grow UP BB! You and I disagree! That's great! I appreciate other points of view! I f I find things to be hypocritical I say so. If you find them hypocritical, I expect you to say so.
I have found the idea that we should have voted NO and then spend the next year fixing the problem and holding great debate hypocritical as this did not happen in the 11 months since last years failed REF. Why would I think it would happen now. Only in the last month has anyone, with any amount of force, publicly asked for accountability.
I choose to believe that the people from learn didn't just wake up one day and decide accountability was important. I believe that TL (and company) has wanted accountability for a long time. Good for them! I appreciate that more than you can possibly understand. But I also don't fault anyone who finds the efforts of LEARN to be disingenuous as these public efforts came at a time when taxes might be raised. People have said throughout this strand that this REF was coming. Dr. P said so last year. Where was the effort for accountability until just a month or so ago?
As for being the sole holder of a definition or whatever you were trying to say, I am not Daniel Webster. I have never claimed to be Daniel Webster., I hold to no definition as you speak.
Have a nice day!
Stand 44,
The BIG BROTHER I was originally referring to is not the local group that was opposed to the passage of the referendum at this time for very obvious reasons...like failing to meet AYP!!! AND is the district truely doing everything they can for ALL kids like EMBRACING diversity rather than using it as an excuse.
The BIG BROTHER I was referring to is the State and Federal Government currently enforcing NCLB and keeping a running total of these FAILURES which none of you can dispute.
Posted by january on Nov. 08 2007,5:50 pm
Stand 44 and Alfy PackardLeadership starts at the top.
Attitude starts at the top.
Academics HAS to be the priority.
Test scores have shown that District 241. Halvorson, Lakeview and ALHS all FAILED to make AYP.
ACT scores this year have shown that students scores were once again below State Averages.
ALHS students are below ACT State Composite Averages year after year after year. There are no sub-groups here to place the blame on.
We hear from the administrator of the make-up MCA II tests and Board member Sally Ehrhardt that the students themselves are to blame for failing to make AYP.
We hear from the administrator of the make-up MCA II tests that the kids just don't care and hand in a blank test and he/she can't blame them. What was that person supposed to do?
We hear the "facts" about how District 241/schools did not sorta, kinda really fail to make AYP because the "all students" section was passed, so we sorta, kinda really think we did sorta, kinda really not that bad.
If that were the case then why is District 241, Halvorson, Lakeview and ALHS all listed as failing to make AYP on the State website? It is a definite, with NO sorta, kinda reallys???
Is it because No Child Left Behind mandates that if one sub-group fails the whole school fails?
I and others on this forum have been talking about the discrepancy in grades vs standarized tests, grade inflation issues, academics and education for years.
In fact, for me personally, I have been investigating this for about 10 years. After assessing all the information accorded us we did something personally and that was open enrolled our child to a smaller surrounding school.
There was a thread on here several months ago where Rep Dan and others had conversation on this very topic.
I was told that if I felt so strongly about it to do something about it. That I needed to take responsibility.
It always surprises then quiets those asking me when I tell them that my child went to a school 20 miles away...one way. We had to buy an extra car. Extra money for gas. Insurance. My child had to get up earlier than many of her classmates living closer. There was inclement weather to contend with. She was captain in 3 sports so there were many a trip to and from in one day.
We were serious about this commitment. Although it was not an easy road it was the right road.
Don't ever let anyone tell you that students in the little schools cannot get the college courses, very challenging curriculums and an all around excellent education just because of their size.
She had many college choices and options. She eventually chose to go where they offered the most academic scholarships. A very large university where she received almost fifty thousand dollars in academic scholarships not based on any financial need/aid but based strictly on academics.
The seriousness of an education was stressed in our home.
But some of her classmates did not have the same commitment from mom and/ or dad at home. Even so the school took great pride in raising the bar high for all its' students. They took their responsiblities seriously. From the superintendent to the principals to the teachers to the office staff to the custodial staff and all fols in between.
They also had a very strong and committed school board.
It has now been several years since she graduated and I will never forget the guidance counselor telling me that one of her fellow graduates, the class valadictorian had finally gotten straight A's there.
He could not remember the last time a student had gotten straight A's. He told me it had been at least 10 to 15 years ago.
So many of us have not only discussed, but investigated, sought out and dug for more and more information from objective souces.
My experiences have taken years and I did not wake up a month ago and decide that this was important and world needs to know.
I have visited the ALHS School Board, although agreed they have to become more transparent, I have written letters to the editors of both the AL Tribune and the Star Tribune as well as officials in the MN Dept of Education.
I will not be condescended to , shined on, spaced off, ridiculed, minimalized because I have something this old age has afforded me.
I don't give a tinkers damn what anyone thinks.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 08 2007,8:12 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 08 2007,7:08 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
That person administers a test 1 time, to kids that are vaguely familiar at best and total strangers at worst. What would you have had the person in that role do to get kids to take a 4 hour test that affects them not at all? Seriously. What is the solution to this problem?
This right here is exactly where the problem lies. Education ALWAYS affects people and ALWAYS matters. IMO,This statement of yours is a "cop out" and I hope you are not educating my students in my family with this kind of "it doesn't matter anyway" mentality.
If there is an obstacle in making a job better don't make someone else figure it out for you or give up on it, figure it out yourself. But the first thing that you have to realize that it is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A "WASTED FOUR HOURS" THAT "DOESN'T MATTER."
Did you ever stop to think that maybe the kids might get that impression from the educators and then really feel like it is a "waste of time" for them? Every test we take in life matters even if we don't like taking them sometimes.
So what your saying Bianca is ... and I want to get this right, so correct me if I am wrong... What you are say is that you don't have any ideas as to what that individual could have done to get a 17 year old student, who has the ability to think for him/herself, to take a 4 hour test seriously when the test has no bearing on his/her life?
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 08 2007,8:16 pm
(Santorini @ Nov. 08 2007,10:18 am)
QUOTE
Stand 44,
The BIG BROTHER I was referring to is the State and Federal Government currently enforcing NCLB and keeping a running total of these FAILURES which none of you can dispute.
The BIG BROTHER I was referring to is the State and Federal Government currently enforcing NCLB and keeping a running total of these FAILURES which none of you can dispute.
Thank you for the clarification. That is definitely a reasonable point.
Posted by Liberal on Nov. 08 2007,8:27 pm
QUOTE
What you are say is that you don't have any ideas as to what that individual could have done to get a 17 year old student, who has the ability to think for him/herself, to take a 4 hour test seriously when the test has no bearing on his/her life?
Maybe we should ask one of the many schools that is making AYP.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 09 2007,2:43 am
QUOTE
I choose to believe that the people from learn didn't just wake up one day and decide accountability was important. I believe that TL (and company) has wanted accountability for a long time. Good for them! I appreciate that more than you can possibly understand. But I also don't fault anyone who finds the efforts of LEARN to be disingenuous as these public efforts came at a time when taxes might be raised.People have said throughout this strand that this REF was coming. Dr. P said so last year. Where was the effort for accountability until just a month or so ago?
My interpretation of your response is you value people who want accountability, except for LEARN as a "whole" group, because they did not ask for accountability until a month before the referendum vote. You see that as suspicious because you think it might have more to do with taxes than accountability in education.
Hopefully I have that interpretation right.
Anything you want to clarify before I respond?
Posted by bianca on Nov. 09 2007,6:40 am
QUOTE
So what your saying Bianca is ... and I want to get this right, so correct me if I am wrong... What you are say is that you don't have any ideas as to what that individual could have done to get a 17 year old student, who has the ability to think for him/herself, to take a 4 hour test seriously when the test has no bearing on his/her life?
Is that REALLY all you got out of that post?
Our students really ARE in trouble. Why don't we all just keep throwing our arms up in the air and say" Well..........it doesn't seem to matter."
Do you honestly believe the only reason citizens in this town voted no was because of increasing taxes? There is an absolutely undeniable roadblock to communication here.
LEARN and the citizens who voted no are not on a "witch hunt" so to speak, you need to try to understand that first.
We were not trying to take teachers jobs and incomes away so they would have to move, we weren't stating educational and political FACTS in order to go against this community that we CHOOSE to live in.
Our campaign was run on expecting responsibility and accountability. You can't possibly think that this whole system is peachy-keen and that "everything will just be fine" now that the vote was Yes Yes, can you?
We all need to stop placing the blame on everyone and everything else and actually stop and look at this picture.
Someone mentioned quite awhile back about students now having a choice of whether they take Algebra or not, what happened there? Why is this not a core subject, which they HAVE to take before graduating? Colleges expect you to have Algebra even to get an AA degree? This shouldn't be a choice, it sure wasn't when we were in school. We had to have Algebra and Geometry BEFORE we graduated. No wonder they struggle with state tests on Math, are they just supposed to learn this through some form of osmosis?
Another thing that I've mentioned before is the thinking from the teachers that correct answers don't matter as long as you show your work
What? .....and then you can't figure out where the problem lies here? It is easier to say, "It should be their choice and if they don't want to learn, we shouldn't have to make them."Here's the deal. It's YOUR job to find a way to get these kids taught even if it becomes frustrating at times with thinking not everyone is listening or paying attention. So why should you waste your time? Because that is YOUR job that you CHOSE and that we are PAYING you for.
Believe me working in the medical field, patients are non-compliant all the time and then family members wonder and want to place blame because their loved ones seem to be getting worse, I do understand this but we can't keep throwing our arms up in the air and go "well..... I tried." Effort, where's the effort? Where's the satisfaction in quitting on these people?
To me it's like a person going to a doctor and saying "there's something wrong with me, but I don't know what it is." The doctor runs a blood test, throws his arms up in the air and says "you're fine there's a few discrepancies but you'll be ok, tests really don't matter anyways. Just make sure you pay on your way out for my time."...........Three months later he sees the obituary. "Tests really don't matter that much."
Posted by busybee on Nov. 09 2007,7:36 am
QUOTE
I don't even know where to begin, so I will just say this. I responded to another persons thought that I took as: schools may be failing because some kids don't have positive home lives to go to, and the school district needs to do more. That may or may not have been the intended message, but that is how I read it. therefore my point is (and was) I DO NOT EXPECT, NOR WANT TEACHERS TO PARENT ANY CHILD BU THEIR OWN!
I still dispute your assertion that parents are expecting teachers to be parents.
I can not argue that some parents don't take the time with their children, or that the home environment can affect the learning process and the attitudes of children towards education.
I disagree that this is an acceptable excuse when children are in the "control" of the public school learning environment.
The responsibility of an educator is not to judge students or make assumptions about a child's academic achievement level and attitude about learning.
The responsibility of educators is to attempt to reach every student possible by offering a learning environment that will develop student desires to apply their abilities and to value education.
QUOTE
If you were an educator I am guessing you taught Art. You have a great ability to get CREATIVE with my thoughts.
Nope, not art.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 09 2007,7:45 am
QUOTE
I will not be condescended to , shined on, spaced off, ridiculed, minimalized because I have something this old age has afforded me.
I don't give a tinkers damn what anyone thinks.
I don't give a tinkers damn what anyone thinks.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 09 2007,9:27 am
Bianca, the following are the two most powerful sentences in your post.QUOTE
We all need to stop placing the blame on everyone and everything else and actually stop and look at this picture.
QUOTE
Our students really ARE in trouble.
You know I agree and view those two sentences as facts that we can no longer ignore.
Now that the referendum has passed, there can only be requests for accountability and recognition of those facts beyond this point.
As everyone has LEARNed from the group LEARN it is difficult to get many to focus on specifics and what could be done to improve, rather than viewing the group or ideas as a threat to what's always been done.
I know where I believe the money should go towards making improvements. Dr. Prescott himself said it's a good thing for the District to be in a position to have extra funds they can put to use.
I was already a little disgruntled when I saw on the district web-site that smaller class sizes, especially at the lower elementary level would be a priority use of the money. And that Dr. Prescott stated the same thing after the referendum passed when he talked about how they might use the extra funds. (Another thing he mentioned was "technology." I think technology is a good choice.)
However, with declining enrollment, with the lower elementary classes already at the 18-23 student range, how much lower can we go and are we actually paying to keep the class sizes low or is it just the way it is?
Don't get me wrong or mis-interpret my statements, I like that students in lower elementary grades having the smaller class sizes. I think for the most part our elementary school environemnts offer students the most potential for success in learning. I like that the upper elementary classes are fairly small too. I like what our middle school offers to keep students who are struggling or need extra help on track.
What I didn't like is hearing over and over again that at ALHS classrooms in core academics are over-crowded and teachers can't teach effectively because of it, the students are sufferering, so please pass the referendum for them and their dire situation.
What I didn't like hearing is people identifying this as a problem, yet no plan with accountability to actually deal with it.
What the students at ALHS don't need is people to blame them, their parents, funding, etc... for this anymore.
Mostly what the students at ALHS don't need is for people to assume the passing of the referendum will indeed address the academic concerns of their learning environment.
The students at ALHS need someone, anyone to get the district to follow through with this issue.
Does anyone out there besides the LEARN group believe the students at ALHS are worth the effort and local funding assuring them an improvement in their academic classroom environments?
Posted by january on Nov. 09 2007,10:20 am
Busybee, Bravo!!!
Posted by busybee on Nov. 09 2007,6:13 pm
Thanks January!Hmmm interesting isn't it...you and I seem to stand alone when it comes to this.
Do you think people actually believe 77% of 11th grade math students NOT being proficient is "no biggie" for ALHS, and 45% of students NOT being proficient in reading is "no biggie" for ALHS, because it's their parents fault or the students fault for not caring?
Yet, when you bring these things up...a month before the referendum...some question why you didn't push for accountability before then.
Bring up assuring accountability for these same issues after the referendum passes, three days later in fact, and what does one get...nothing.
The way I see it, only a very few of us really care about academics at the high school level.
That's sad, so very sad.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 09 2007,7:00 pm
(bianca @ Nov. 09 2007,6:40 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
So what your saying Bianca is ... and I want to get this right, so correct me if I am wrong... What you are say is that you don't have any ideas as to what that individual could have done to get a 17 year old student, who has the ability to think for him/herself, to take a 4 hour test seriously when the test has no bearing on his/her life?
Is that REALLY all you got out of that post?
Yes Bianca.. that is all I got out of your post. I asked a simple question. You continue to divert from the question even in your last post.
I was asked to administer a test. I did not know any of the students I was giving the test to. They didn't know me. I had never seen most of them before. This was a make up test day so teachers needed to be in their rooms and they asked me to admin the test.
So... back to the question. If yo plan on responding to this, please pay attention to the question.
What could an individual who has little to no relationship with these 17 year old kids have done to get them to take a 4 hour test that has no bearing on their lives?
Notice, I am not talking about teachers. I am not talking about test results. I am not asking if the right thing to do is deny fuding that supports programs for kids. I am keeping it simple. What could that person have done to get these kids to take this test seriously?
Posted by january on Nov. 09 2007,7:45 pm
Busybee:Agreed.
I find it so sad that a large group of people some very influential could have made a huge difference here.
And I am not just talking about passing the referendum to get money. I am talking about the message that you just spelled out.
The long term goal......to get Academic achievement back to where it once was at ALHS
11th grade students were......77%..........NOT Proficient in Math and..... 45%...... NOT proficient in Reading.
Anyone can understand that those statistics are horrible. Ignoring it or accepting it are akin to embracing it.
How can a large group of educated people say they want to keep the same quality of education that we currently have?
And on test after test year after year to be below State averages. Where is the pride in that? What happened to us as people?
For the administrator of a make-up MCA II test to care less if the students takes the thing or not, why should any kid give care if no one else cares.
I saw the names of the TEAM members in the paper. Most of the names I saw were highly educated talented people.
Where are they now?
LEARN brought out the problems with the academics and that had never been done before, not publicly and not to such a wide audience.
LEARN came out with some solutions but no one as yet has listened or shall I venture to say, cared.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 09 2007,9:09 pm
QUOTE
Yes Bianca.. that is all I got out of your post. I asked a simple question. You continue to divert from the question even in your last post.
I was asked to administer a test. I did not know any of the students I was giving the test to. They didn't know me. I had never seen most of them before. This was a make up test day so teachers needed to be in their rooms and they asked me to admin the test.
So... back to the question. If yo plan on responding to this, please pay attention to the question.
What could an individual who has little to no relationship with these 17 year old kids have done to get them to take a 4 hour test that has no bearing on their lives?
Notice, I am not talking about teachers. I am not talking about test results. I am not asking if the right thing to do is deny fuding that supports programs for kids. I am keeping it simple. What could that person have done to get these kids to take this test seriously?
I was asked to administer a test. I did not know any of the students I was giving the test to. They didn't know me. I had never seen most of them before. This was a make up test day so teachers needed to be in their rooms and they asked me to admin the test.
So... back to the question. If yo plan on responding to this, please pay attention to the question.
What could an individual who has little to no relationship with these 17 year old kids have done to get them to take a 4 hour test that has no bearing on their lives?
Notice, I am not talking about teachers. I am not talking about test results. I am not asking if the right thing to do is deny fuding that supports programs for kids. I am keeping it simple. What could that person have done to get these kids to take this test seriously?
I know you've been directing this question towards Bianca and I think I could answer your question. I need a little bit more info, though.
How many students?
Describe the physical environment...typical classroom, the cafeteria, meeting room?
What time was the test taken?
Any breaks?
Were the students tired or hungry?
Describe your typical attitude around high school students...positive & upbeat, monotone & even keeled, or reserved & serious.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 09 2007,9:17 pm
(busybee @ Nov. 09 2007,9:09 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Yes Bianca.. that is all I got out of your post. I asked a simple question. You continue to divert from the question even in your last post.
I was asked to administer a test. I did not know any of the students I was giving the test to. They didn't know me. I had never seen most of them before. This was a make up test day so teachers needed to be in their rooms and they asked me to admin the test.
So... back to the question. If yo plan on responding to this, please pay attention to the question.
What could an individual who has little to no relationship with these 17 year old kids have done to get them to take a 4 hour test that has no bearing on their lives?
Notice, I am not talking about teachers. I am not talking about test results. I am not asking if the right thing to do is deny fuding that supports programs for kids. I am keeping it simple. What could that person have done to get these kids to take this test seriously?
I was asked to administer a test. I did not know any of the students I was giving the test to. They didn't know me. I had never seen most of them before. This was a make up test day so teachers needed to be in their rooms and they asked me to admin the test.
So... back to the question. If yo plan on responding to this, please pay attention to the question.
What could an individual who has little to no relationship with these 17 year old kids have done to get them to take a 4 hour test that has no bearing on their lives?
Notice, I am not talking about teachers. I am not talking about test results. I am not asking if the right thing to do is deny fuding that supports programs for kids. I am keeping it simple. What could that person have done to get these kids to take this test seriously?
I know you've been directing this question towards Bianca and I think I could answer your question. I need a little bit more info, though.
How many students?
Describe the physical environment...typical classroom, the cafeteria, meeting room?
What time was the test taken?
Any breaks?
Describe your typical attitude around high school students...positive & upbeat, monotone & even keeled, or reserved & serious.
The classroom had about 20 kids. The school day started at around 8:10 (sorry I don't know for sure. I think they changed it this school year), the test started about 8:30 so these kids had some time to prepare.
It was held in a (i think) social studies classroom with two windows.
I don't think there were any "scheduled" breaks,, but kids could take as long as they wanted so I would guess they could take a break as needed. Also, I know that they were allowed to stand and stretch for a minute every once in awhile.
Attitude... I don't know. It was a spring day (so not homecoming week). I would guess a pretty typical day.
BB, I really appreciate the civility here as I sense you are seriously trying to find a solution. Thank you.
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 09 2007,9:20 pm
(busybee @ Nov. 09 2007,2:43 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
I choose to believe that the people from learn didn't just wake up one day and decide accountability was important. I believe that TL (and company) has wanted accountability for a long time. Good for them! I appreciate that more than you can possibly understand. But I also don't fault anyone who finds the efforts of LEARN to be disingenuous as these public efforts came at a time when taxes might be raised.People have said throughout this strand that this REF was coming. Dr. P said so last year. Where was the effort for accountability until just a month or so ago?
My interpretation of your response is you value people who want accountability, except for LEARN as a "whole" group, because they did not ask for accountability until a month before the referendum vote. You see that as suspicious because you think it might have more to do with taxes than accountability in education.
Hopefully I have that interpretation right.
Anything you want to clarify before I respond?
No that's about it. Only to add.. that people who are in the trenches everyday have more credibility for me.
I feel you setting me up for something
Posted by busybee on Nov. 10 2007,12:49 am
QUOTE
The classroom had about 20 kids. The school day started at around 8:10 (sorry I don't know for sure. I think they changed it this school year), the test started about 8:30 so these kids had some time to prepare.
It was held in a (i think) social studies classroom with two windows.
I don't think there were any "scheduled" breaks,, but kids could take as long as they wanted so I would guess they could take a break as needed. Also, I know that they were allowed to stand and stretch for a minute every once in awhile.
Attitude... I don't know. It was a spring day (so not homecoming week). I would guess a pretty typical day.
BB, I really appreciate the civility here as I sense you are seriously trying to find a solution. Thank you.
It was held in a (i think) social studies classroom with two windows.
I don't think there were any "scheduled" breaks,, but kids could take as long as they wanted so I would guess they could take a break as needed. Also, I know that they were allowed to stand and stretch for a minute every once in awhile.
Attitude... I don't know. It was a spring day (so not homecoming week). I would guess a pretty typical day.
BB, I really appreciate the civility here as I sense you are seriously trying to find a solution. Thank you.
Could be the beginning test time had an affect on student performance.
Some may have been up late with an extra curricular activity, working, schoolwork or visiting via text messages late into the night.
Some may have skipped breakfast. We all know that affects performance.
There isn't anything that can be done by someone administering a test as far as students having a good nights rest.
Since the test was given first thing in the a.m. offering a glass of orange juice & a donut would be beneficial.
A typical classroom setting shouldn't have an impact either way.
Scheduled breaks and the freedom to stand and stretch occassionally would have been good.
A pretty typical day doesn't describe the typical attitude of the test administrator towards high school students.
It is my belief that if anything can be done before the test, during break times and after the test to have "improve the moment, moments" that would be a desirable approach. Humor works really well with high school students if you don't know each other.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 10 2007,7:01 am
QUOTE
Stand44 · Posted on Nov. 09 2007,9:20 pm
(busybee @ Nov. 09 2007,2:43 am)
No that's about it. Only to add.. that people who are in the trenches everyday have more credibility for me.
I feel you setting me up for something
QUOTE
Stand 44
I choose to believe that the people from learn didn't just wake up one day and decide accountability was important. I believe that TL (and company) has wanted accountability for a long time. Good for them! I appreciate that more than you can possibly understand. But I also don't fault anyone who finds the efforts of LEARN to be disingenuous as these public efforts came at a time when taxes might be raised.People have said throughout this strand that this REF was coming. Dr. P said so last year. Where was the effort for accountability until just a month or so ago?
I choose to believe that the people from learn didn't just wake up one day and decide accountability was important. I believe that TL (and company) has wanted accountability for a long time. Good for them! I appreciate that more than you can possibly understand. But I also don't fault anyone who finds the efforts of LEARN to be disingenuous as these public efforts came at a time when taxes might be raised.People have said throughout this strand that this REF was coming. Dr. P said so last year. Where was the effort for accountability until just a month or so ago?
(busybee @ Nov. 09 2007,2:43 am)
QUOTE
My interpretation of your response is you value people who want accountability, except for LEARN as a "whole" group, because they did not ask for accountability until a month before the referendum vote. You see that as suspicious because you think it might have more to do with taxes than accountability in education.
Hopefully I have that interpretation right.
Anything you want to clarify before I respond?
Hopefully I have that interpretation right.
Anything you want to clarify before I respond?
No that's about it. Only to add.. that people who are in the trenches everyday have more credibility for me.
I feel you setting me up for something
No, I'm just trying to understand your position.
Can you explain why TEAM, a combined group of educators, parents & community members can be afforded credibility when looking ONLY look at their message, not the messengers and the time of the message?
Can you explain why LEARN, a combined group of educators, parents & community members can NOT be afforded credibility when looking ONLY at their message, instead of making it about knowing the messengers and putting relevance on a time factor?
What trenches are you talking about? Only teachers who are actively teaching? If so, what grades? What about parents? More parens are in the trenches everyday than you have seemed to want to acknowledge. It appears you would rather label most parents as lacking involvement.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think your opinion is biased because you want to concentrate on labeling, judging and making assumptions about "no, not yet" messengers, rather than taking a non-judgemental stance about the message.
Posted by hairhertz on Nov. 10 2007,9:17 am
More money > more promises > more of the same performanceMy post referendum prediction is that cosmetic adjustments will be made by #241, things will get back to business as usual until the next crisis arises. Then there will be another plea for more money to fix the problem. Etc., etc., etc. >
Posted by This is my real name on Nov. 10 2007,9:36 am
Wasn't there a Tribune article that actually said that they would cancel the referendum if the state funding was restored?I remember reading something like that in the Sunday paper, when they reported on both sides of the issue.
If this happens, WE HAVE to hold them to it. Otherwise, when the referendum expires, they'll want us to fund "lost money" that isn't really lost.
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 10 2007,9:58 am
(january @ Nov. 09 2007,7:45 pm)
QUOTE
11th grade students were......77%..........NOT Proficient in Math and..... 45%...... NOT proficient in Reading.
Not that I'm doubting this, but where did this statistic come from?
Posted by Stand44 on Nov. 10 2007,10:51 am
(busybee @ Nov. 10 2007,12:49 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
The classroom had about 20 kids. The school day started at around 8:10 (sorry I don't know for sure. I think they changed it this school year), the test started about 8:30 so these kids had some time to prepare.
It was held in a (i think) social studies classroom with two windows.
I don't think there were any "scheduled" breaks,, but kids could take as long as they wanted so I would guess they could take a break as needed. Also, I know that they were allowed to stand and stretch for a minute every once in awhile.
Attitude... I don't know. It was a spring day (so not homecoming week). I would guess a pretty typical day.
BB, I really appreciate the civility here as I sense you are seriously trying to find a solution. Thank you.
It was held in a (i think) social studies classroom with two windows.
I don't think there were any "scheduled" breaks,, but kids could take as long as they wanted so I would guess they could take a break as needed. Also, I know that they were allowed to stand and stretch for a minute every once in awhile.
Attitude... I don't know. It was a spring day (so not homecoming week). I would guess a pretty typical day.
BB, I really appreciate the civility here as I sense you are seriously trying to find a solution. Thank you.
Could be the beginning test time had an affect on student performance.
Some may have been up late with an extra curricular activity, working, schoolwork or visiting via text messages late into the night.
Some may have skipped breakfast. We all know that affects performance.
There isn't anything that can be done by someone administering a test as far as students having a good nights rest.
Since the test was given first thing in the a.m. offering a glass of orange juice & a donut would be beneficial.
A typical classroom setting shouldn't have an impact either way.
Scheduled breaks and the freedom to stand and stretch occassionally would have been good.
A pretty typical day doesn't describe the typical attitude of the test administrator towards high school students.
It is my belief that if anything can be done before the test, during break times and after the test to have "improve the moment, moments" that would be a desirable approach. Humor works really well with high school students if you don't know each other.
I agree with all of what yo have said. I think (not sure), that a few years ago the school received some type of small grant or something to provide a breakfast on the morning of the test and bottled water to every student taking the test. The problem here is that this sort of thing takes planning and is probably not available on make-up day.
As far as the break goes, I remember taking the ACT oh so many years ago. Breaks were an important part of that for me. The kids that walked out however, didn't stay long enough to get to a break point.
I guess I am curious to see if kids are still walking out when the test they are taking counts towards graduation.
I still don't believe that 77% of Albert Lea's Jrs. do not possess the skills to pass that test. I believe 77% didn't perform well enough to pass the test, but I don't think it is because they [/I]couldn't[I] pass the test.
Posted by Liberal on Nov. 10 2007,11:15 am
How is it that other schools had no problem getting the kids to take it seriously?Blaming the kids for not trying is as weak as blaming the immigrants, the poor and the handicapped for dragging our tests scores down.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 10 2007,12:16 pm
QUOTE
More money > more promises > more of the same performance
I agree.
Here is how we allocated funds before this referendum issue came into play.
ALHS our WORST PROFICIENCY SCHOOL
General Fund Expenditure per Student by Program
School District State
District Level Administration $263 $263 $376
School Level Administration $377 $384 $369
Regular Instruction $3,195 $3,698 $3,963
Career & Technical Instruction $536 $177 $133
Special Education Instruction $1,337 $1,782 $1,632
Student Activities/Athletics $513 $171 $229
Instructional Support Services $354 $329 $405
Pupil Support Services $234 $176 $239
Operations, Maintenance & Other $1,245 $997 $769
Student Transportation $502 $502 $502
* Subtotal - General Fund Operating Expenditures
$8,556 $8,479 $8,617
Capital Expenditures $253 $283 $453
* Total - General Fund $8,809 $8,762 $9,070
General Fund Revenue per Student Generated By Students Attending This School
School District State
Basic General Education $6,098 $5,394 $5,379
Extended Time $0 $64 $63
Compensatory $190 $350 $349
Limited English Proficiency $11 $31 $46
Sparsity $0 $0 $23
Operating Capital $262 $234 $224
Operating Referendum $657 $588 $638
Other General Education $236 $211 $205
* Subtotal - General Education $7,453 $6,872 $6,927
Special Education $740 $1,024 $976
Title I $17 $119 $129
First Grade Preparedness $0 $0 $9
Other Operating $684 $672 $806
Other Capital Expenditure $57 $57 $226
* Total - General Fund $8,950 $8,744 $9,073
General Fund Revenue by Source
District State
Federal Grants $472 $464
State Aids and Grants $7,632 $7,546
Local Property Tax $300 $545
Student Fees/Admissions $55 $82
Tuition from other Districts $77 $124
Investment Earnings $79 $66
Other Local $130 $249
* TOTAL General Fund $8,745 $9,076
Compare to our BEST PROFICIENCY LEVEL School
< Sibley >
Compare to our HIGHEST # SPECIAL EDUCATION School
< Halverson >
Compare to our middle school
< Southwest >
Posted by busybee on Nov. 10 2007,12:25 pm
QUOTE
Not that I'm doubting this, but where did this statistic come from?
From the MN DEPT OF ED...go to the school you want to look up under AYP - choose analyze your results.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 10 2007,12:33 pm
QUOTE
How is it that other schools had no problem getting the kids to take it seriously?
Blaming the kids for not trying is as weak as blaming the immigrants, the poor and the handicapped for dragging our tests scores down.
Blaming the kids for not trying is as weak as blaming the immigrants, the poor and the handicapped for dragging our tests scores down.
The problem at ALHS is not unique. It's a basic philosophy of education that society, high schools, educators and our governments have been hanging onto for far too long.
Our place in the world has changed and evolved, yet our approach to high school education has not.
So, you are right, we can't blame the students. They are only following their adult leaders.
Posted by hairhertz on Nov. 10 2007,12:47 pm
1. finish regular school after 10th grade; begin college prep or go directly to college once the needed skill levels are effectively demonstrated. Allow students upwards of 3 years to attain skills/attend college.2. finish regular school after 10th grade: begin vocation training the next year. Complete training once skills levels are effectively demonstrated. Allow training to age 21 at public expense.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 10 2007,3:21 pm
Busybee--what is your point in the post comparing expenditures above? There are so MANY issues that your post brings up that it is hard to focus on only one.I see that the cost per student was HIGHEST in our WORST performing school.
I see that our BEST performing school had LOWER expenditures per student--so much for "More money equals better education."
I see that Sibley, an elementary school, had only 92% of the AVERAGE expenditures per student--thousands of dollars less. It appears that once again, elementary is short changed.
Could you elaborate on your point?
Several posters express frustration with LEARN, saying "how can we improve education by cutting funds?"
They have completely missed the point--that the issue is NOT "cutting funds"--it is about having the kinds of schools WE want, about adequate yearly progress, about PRIORITIES. There is money in the school budget for a number of "nice to have" issues, but the Administration CHOOSES to spend it on those issues instead of meeting the charge made to them to teach academics and meet standards.
Most LEARN members are not even against raising taxes--but we ARE against misplaced priorities, waste, and the seeming inability to define the goals that those increased taxes would pay for. LEARN is on record as saying that if the community (as opposed to the Administration) decides to keep an additional school open, so be it. They are also on record as saying--give us a million dollars worth of cuts, and we'll give you a million dollars MORE in levies."
By the way, those "cuts" are not a cut in BUDGET--a better definition of it would be REALLOCATION--the money would still be there--just change where it is spent.
Posted by january on Nov. 10 2007,3:48 pm
Stand 44Liberal is right.
Many, many, many schools passed AYP.......the majority passed.
District 241 FAILED to make AYP as did three individual schools in District 241
77% NOT proficient in Math (11th grade)
45% NOT proficient in Reading (11th grade)
Is horrible.
Can one person from TEAM, Administration or School Board say that is acceptable?
Then WHY in heavens name was this not addressed when it was so public, when people actually listened? When something could have been done about it? When the public could have demanded change?
No, all the public got was more enabling of this, the WORST problem the District has.
All the public got was Board members saying how wonderful everything was and we need to keep the same quality of education that we now have.
We got Sally Erhardt, Board Member give explanation after explanation that she believed it was those "SUB-GROUPS" that caused us to fail AYP.
It was a teeny,weeny, tiny group of students (Special Ed and Hispanic) that are causing the low scores.
We had TEAM members explaining that we really did not do too terribly bad because the "all students" group passed.
We were told to go back and look at how it is calculated and then we can all be enligtened and see that it really is not what is being said by those people that are not in the know.
The referendum passed.
It was never about the money with me
It was about holding the District accountable for your children.
It was about having the publics ear, finally, because it was a hotbed issue and people didn't turn a deaf ear during the referendum campaign. They were engaged.
I know that some of the TEAM members still come on here to look at what is being said.
You can make a difference.
Our kids need you
Posted by january on Nov. 10 2007,4:02 pm
Stand 44,You said that you still don't believe that 77% of Albert Lea's juniors do not have the skills to pass that test. You believe 77% didn't perform well enough to pass the test, but you don't think it is because they couldn't pass the test.
The objective data is the objective data.
77% didn't pass the test.
PERIOD
I guess that is why the Public, the States and the Feds are no longer accepting letter grades as a gauge as to how things are going academically for individual students and schools.
Posted by busybee on Nov. 10 2007,8:16 pm
QUOTE
Busybee--what is your point in the post comparing expenditures above? There are so MANY issues that your post brings up that it is hard to focus on only one.
Just making sure you're still paying attention!
QUOTE
I see that Sibley, an elementary school, had only 92% of the AVERAGE expenditures per student--thousands of dollars less. It appears that once again, elementary is short changed.
And still doing better than the worst performing school in our district.
It's the ENVIRONMENT & the FOCUS of PRIORITIES that increase performance...thus you get the most bang for your buck at the elementary level than at the high school level in ACADEMICS.
Compare the amount spent per student at each school on regular instruction and ALHS has the smallest amount allocated.
And people believe the main source of the problem is lack of state & federal funding to cause over-crowded classrooms in core academic at ALHS along with poor results.
If that isn't excuse enough, than it's the student's fault & the parents fault.
ALHS spends 39% of the state & federal funds on regular instruction.
Sibley spends 50% of the state & federal funds on regular instruction.
ALHS spends 16% on special ed.
Sibley spends 14 1/2 % on special ed.
ALHS spends 7% on additional instruction & pupil support services.
Sibley spends 6% on additional instruction & pupil support services.
ALHS spends 62% of their funds on ACADEMIC instruction.
Sibley spends 70.5% of their funds on ACADEMIC instruction.
The way I figure things, by the time our elementary students reach high school, 30% of them are being under-funded in ACADEMIC instruction.
Posted by jimhanson on Nov. 11 2007,10:40 am
Thank you for verifying--that was my point as well, elementary is shortchanged to give assets to the high school.Maybe if they spent that money in ELEMENTARY, they wouldn't have to do remedial work in high school.
From earlier in the thread, I listed a source where you can look up the student-teacher ratio.
It isn't that we are SHORT of money--it is the DISTRIBUTION of funds that is wrong.
That's a failure of CENTRAL PLANNING. Most governments in the world have adequate assets--but the distribution is where it goes bad. Look at Russia's "central planning"--whether potato crops, tractors produced, automobile allocations--not a good model. For a REAL example of defective "central planning", look at the UN--the people that can't manage to give away powdered milk.
I'm glad you are keeping tabs on them!
Posted by busybee on Nov. 11 2007,12:09 pm
Actually, it's not so much that I think the elementary schools are being short changed in academic instruction, it's the high school students who I believe are the being cheated the most...in ACADEMICS. We have more "needs" here, therefore, we get more funds, we should be using those funds appropriately, especially at the high school level.
Posted by january on Nov. 12 2007,4:53 pm
Busybee:I agree totally. You know what you are talking about.
Like I said, I have been studying this for about 10 years.
We were proactive and did something about what we found.
I sincerely hope that the Admin and School Board will listen to the needs of the High School students.
I hope that someone with the power to help will do just that.
Stand 44 I think I know who you are. You said you were the center of your high school basketball team so you are very tall. You said your state basketball tournament attendance was in the late '80's so I figure you are about 37-38 years old. You said you have taught but eluded that you no longer just teach. You also eluded to an administrative type job but I don't believe you do that at this time. I think you may do something both with the school and with the community in education.
You have the power to help. Please do.