Topic: AHLS building deterioration
started by: minnow
Posted by minnow on Feb. 11 2004,2:38 pm
"Councilor Jeff Fjelstad walked through the building about a year ago and observed broken glass, mold and a ruined stage, he said.Recently, windows have been broken and people have built fires inside, Sparks said.
The city's options include buying the building back but they would probably lose money in the deal.
"(The developer) has been vague about how much he wants," Sparks said."
Check this----->They foolishly give the building to someone from Minneapolis for $1.00, he comes in and takes thousands of dollars of building materials out of it that he can recycle...
Now the city wants it back and he won't say how much he wants for it! So we'll spend thousands, perhaps tens of thousands on legal action.
Does Sparky sound like the kind of guy we want heading up economic development? I don't trust Sparky with money and assets. Now he has access to hundreds of thousands and no one watching the books like a hawk, which is what one needs when SPARKY'S in charge.
Posted by Jesus Juice on Feb. 11 2004,2:58 pm
I had to read this article twice to make sure I really read what I just read (you never know, sometimes the Jesus juice clouds your vision).It certainly does not surprise me, just business as usual in Albert Lea. Chalk another one up for Sparky & his gang of dimwits.
-JJ
-also, isn't it ALHS not AHLS? Great job of proof reading by the trib.
Posted by Frustrated on Feb. 11 2004,4:15 pm
Minnow seems to have hit this one on the head. You'd think competent city officials wouldn't get themselves into such situations and wouldn't let people screw with them like this. Perhaps its time to condemn the old part of the building and force developer to tear it down ASAP. Wonder what he pays in property tax - could also reassess value of what's left. Seems like a large lot next to park and church, near down town and lake, newer addition with pool and courtyard. lots of concrete work. Should call for a ton of property taxes - then could foreclose after taxes not paid. City certainly shouldn't give more than $1 to get it back.
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 11 2004,6:23 pm
I just read the article... that's sad. I went to one of the last concerts in the old high school building, and, in my opinion, the old auditorium is much better acoustically than the one at the new high school. And that's just the very tip of the iceburg on this story. *sigh*
Posted by rosebudinal on Feb. 11 2004,6:32 pm
The state of the building and the sale of it for $1 says all there is to say about Albert Lea, along with the shady buyer, why not take advantage of our foolish "leaders" just when one thinks we couldn't be more of a laughing stock!!!!
Posted by minnow on Feb. 11 2004,6:46 pm
All of this happened...we got in this position because our leaders were not honest with us. They should have told us that purchasing a brand new high school was only part of the economic equation...the other half involves tearing down the old facility. They knew that adding those costs would make you think twice about voting to spend for a new building so they made you believe the building could be fixed up by a investor. If that were true---->then it would've been a good deal to just stay in the old building and just do repairs. Shameful and selfish.
Posted by usmcr on Feb. 11 2004,6:59 pm
Does someone on this board know how this could play out? It is my understanding that the school district has some funds in reserve for demolition. anyone know anything about this? the person who bought this property must have some legal obligations to keep the site secure. which govt. bodies could persue the issue, city or county? it would seem that it would cost a ton of money to completly demolish the site as it is as large or larger than the old packing plant. there also must be a ton of astestos which will need to be disposed of, which in its self could prove costly. has anyone looked to see if any part of the site could be salvaged to be useful in some capacity? this seems like a strange deal, buying it for a dollar, gutting it of any thing of value & then just ignoring the problem. if and when this comes back to haunt the taxpayer it will be a sad day indeed. it would seem that the school district would have some responsability regarding the site. selling it for $1.00 does not seem to be an eqitable solution. this situation seems to be coming to a head & where it is heading is anyones guess!!! 
Posted by rosebudinal on Feb. 12 2004,7:47 pm
Oh, I'll tell you where the head is, it's up their __sses, oops, sometimes its so hard to be a lady regarding these matters 
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Feb. 12 2004,8:30 pm
Here's an idea, why doesn't AL get the old school back and put it up on eBay, lol!Saw that on Good Morning America that some small town actually did that, sold for a decent price I think too. Also got them national attention for the town.
Posted by farouk on Feb. 13 2004,8:17 am
The school district sold the building. At the time of the sale it was said that the school district had a reserve for the demolition of the building. If they sold the building with some language about the new owner having to perform within some specific time and/or standard, calling the new owners about nonperformance might obligate the district to demolish the building. I'm not sure but I think the reserve that was in place for that purpose has been redirected to other needs since the building was successfully sold to this developer. If the building has infact become a hazard to the community, it will cost us to remove it. I don't fault the school district or the city on this one. They employed a regional and a local real estate firm to market the building, who advertised the property. It not like there were lost of offers to buy the property. The offer of a $1 took over a year to get. It was better at the time to take the buck and hope that the building would need to be raised.
Posted by minnow on Feb. 13 2004,8:28 am
No....no it certainly was not!That's one of the main problems with AL. Many people can't understand when they've been hoodwinked.
Posted by farouk on Feb. 13 2004,11:17 am
minnow, since you know better, why don't you take a $1 from the many you have and buy the building. Then you can show us all how wrong we are. There is lots of space for your bike museum. Show us how wrong the school district was for selling the building for a buck. Hell I would love to see the building saved. I'd even go to work full time to get the public library to move in. It is time to demonstrate by example minnow, words are cheep.
Posted by Madd Max on Feb. 13 2004,11:56 am
If the building is in such dire straights and in need of repair with an owner who refuses to fix up his property why shouldn't the city go to court and force the developer to have the building demolished? Why couldn’t they go after the new owner the same way they went after Farmland? If we get stuck wit part of the bill for demolishing the site isn’t that better then getting stuck with the whole bill? The city would then have two large lots open for economic development or housing? 
Posted by minnow on Feb. 13 2004,12:20 pm
Sure! I'll invest one dollar and be liable for a $10,000,000 raising! LOL 
You people aren't mad as much as YeR dumb.
Posted by farouk on Feb. 13 2004,1:38 pm
No guts, "ay"! Why I would bet you could fill the place with tenants with little effort, just on your pleasant personality.Further more, I dought that it will cost $10,000,000 to raise the building if you fail to make a go at it. The asbestos should be easier to get at than the Farmland project, and the mortar in the walls had been loose for some time before the students left. I bet you could have much of it down without much effort.
So where your buck?
Posted by minnow fan on Feb. 13 2004,4:44 pm
I doubt you will be able to buy the dump back for a dollar. Sure the new owner will want much more then that.Here is an idea, make the building into a museum featuring of 30 years of city/county screw ups. Actually, I don't know if the building would even be big enough for that, you might need to add on an addition.
Could have a wall of shame featuring Gabe & Sparky, I think I am on to something here...
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 13 2004,6:12 pm
The building's been out of service for four years. It'd be an investment of many hours and many dollars, but for crying out loud, Minnow, not even close to $10 million. Puh-leeze. Hyperbole won't get us anywhere, nor will complaining about bad mistakes in the past. I'm sure that IF the community could come together for once and make a decision on what could go in the building, and IF people would get off their butts to pitch in and help rather than finding a part of the project to administrate, it'd be a great city center. Keep the old library building for the city offices, and renovate the old high school to hold a performing arts center (with recital/performance space in the old aud - we could definitely use some culture in AL) and the resources of the public library. Anyone up to the challenge?
Posted by minnow on Feb. 13 2004,7:15 pm
How about you...don't you have a dollar? 
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 13 2004,7:42 pm
No, Minnow, I don't. As stated earlier in other posts, I make less than 5% of what you make. It covers the following: food, bills, and my pithy amount that I set aside each month to save up for my expenses for an overseas year-long teaching job. What I DO have is free time. If you donate your dollar(s - I'm optimistic
) to buy back the building, I will donate my free time to plan out uses and contact other interested people.
Posted by minnow fan on Feb. 13 2004,8:01 pm
Clovis-I believe your signature line is in French, are you French?Here is my favorite picture of France...
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 13 2004,8:06 pm
Such a shame. The Eiffel Tower is beautiful in its own way, but I prefer Bretagne, Normandie, and Provence. Plus, Hitler blocks the nice panorama from the Trocadero.
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 13 2004,8:07 pm
And was that a "yes, I'll help" or "no, I'd rather not help" with the ALHS project, minnow fan?
Posted by BS Fighter on Feb. 13 2004,8:23 pm
| Quote (Clovis @ Feb. 13 2004,6:12:pm) |
| nor will complaining about bad mistakes in the past. |
That's BS Clovis. Complaining loudly is the only weapon BS Fighters have against a very inept and idiotic local government that consistently does stupid things like selling a building to a unknown outsiders trusting that person to do the right thing. BS Fighter says "Sweep them out of office, and start fresh" Maybe an IQ test should be required of all candidates first.
Thank you.
[color=crimson][/color]
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 13 2004,8:26 pm
I meant simply that complaining alone does no good. You can complain all you want to someone, but you'd also better have a good plan for solving the problem.But I agree with you, B.S. Fighter. The locals should have gotten in writing what the buyers were planning to do with the building rather than trusting the buyers' "good nature."
Posted by minnow on Feb. 13 2004,8:42 pm
"You can complain all you want to someone, but you'd also better have a good plan for solving the problem."---->That's like saying the defendent in a criminal case must not only prove he didn't do it, he must prove who did!
We are paying them to take care of this stuff. Now you're saying we must do their work too...
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 13 2004,8:47 pm
But if you want the government to take actions that are significantly different from their past actions, then you may have to do a little legwork. If you don't, then you leave it up to them to continue in the half-assed manner of governing against which you rail so heartily and loudly. You're paying the money to support the officials, and you have the right and the OBLIGATION to speak out and present plans of action if you do not agree with their patterns of action.
Posted by cpu_slave on Feb. 14 2004,1:46 pm
| Quote |
| I don't fault the school district or the city on this one. They employed a regional and a local real estate firm to market the building, who advertised the property. |
You may not fault them, but I do. Look, they paid this real estate firm close to $25,000 if I remember correctly, and yes there were offers (I myself even offered a $1 but they did not like the terms I wanted). They let the building go without any clue as to what the buyer was going to do, other than gut the thing for anything worth salvaging. Before the building was sold, I was throwing out ideas left and right about a community center, library and beautiful auditorium but like anything else in this town, all of it fell on deaf ears. Now the building has suffered from neglect and a buyer who for $1 came in and stripped anything of value from it and is basically giving the finger back to the city. If it ends up that the city has to take it back and deal with it, there better be a lawsuit against the current 'owner' and any other idiot involved in this deal (real estate broker, and the city-school district individuals who approved this scam!)
Posted by farouk on Feb. 16 2004,8:01 am
cpu, if you still have your buck, I've got 2 Canadian taped to the door of the frig that I would donate. Maybe we could develope a "smoke free zone" in the building. Hell I bet their are plenty of adults that would pay to relive the memories of smoking a quick one in the johns of that building.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 16 2004,4:07 pm
It sure was a pretty school when they closed it. I did not understand it then, and I don't now. Oh, well, water under the bridge. My old school was older than this one and I went back to visit and it is still going strong today. I thought it was sad that people with financial interests in the new school, mounted such a strong campaign for it under the guise of the town becoming irrelevant if we did not build one, scaring the population into buying a new one. There are a lot of older schools in the state doing just fine. Now it is a mess, and it needs tearing down, and I don't think that any official that was in office, or working for this city when all of that occurred, in particular the $1.00 sale, should still be here working or serving and I hope the citizens of AL finally say, that is enough, get them all out of here
Posted by cpu_slave on Feb. 16 2004,5:27 pm
| Quote |
| cpu, if you still have your buck, I've got 2 Canadian taped to the door of the frig that I would donate. |
Only problem now is that after the current 'owner' gutted the place for anything worth stripping out, that place would need buckets of money just to get it back to the condiction it was in when the city-school district sold it for $1. (-$24,999 after real estate broker fees) I simply can not imagine the stupidity (then and now) that those responsible seem to have when it comes to that building. Like I said before, that place was not in the 'terrible shape' that everyone made it sound when they decided that they needed a new school building. The city should simply take it back and refurb it for thier new library as well as a community center with possible office space. I mean, what does it really say about our city and our leaders when we can not even do anything about the old school? If ANY taxpayer cash goes to demolish this building, or to try to forclose and turn around and sell it to another shady 'developer', then the lawsuits will start to fly!
Still, I would like to hear what people would like to see done with the space, anyone have some positive ideas?
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 16 2004,6:01 pm
This is a copy of a PM "conversation" I recently had with another Forum member:I've weighed in on this before--look under the "library" threads. About 3 years ago, and again about a year ago, some private citizens looked at what could be done with the school. The old school library is one of the newer sections of school, and COULD stand alone. A better idea, in my mind, is to do exactly what you said--a community/performing arts center.
One of the objections to utilizing the auditorium is "there's no dedicated heating and AC system", or "run a boiler just to heat the auditorium?". Another is "you'd have to have a janitorial staff dedicated to just one building".
Putting the library on the North side (where business education and Shop were taught) would be possible--the floors were built for Shop equipment, or are on concrete. It is also proximate to the auditorium, AND, would connect the auditorium with the newest section--the offices. You would think the offices would be desireable--right downtown, good parking at the demolished site or in the park.
There is more than enough space to include an Arts center--look what Owatonna did with the old "State School Orphanage"--or what Sioux Falls did with their old High School--half is a community center/arts center, the other half is an Exploratorium--hands-on science and discovery experience for kids, complete with IMAX theatre. The Center even has dinners and catered events there, and in 2000, when I interviewed the Director), they drew OVER 200,000 visitors--kids from other communities, bus tours, reunions, etc!
You might consider saving the gymnasium--not that old--there is a need for large indoor play/display space--the schools are charging an increasing rate for space. Having the buildings tied together provides the "critical mass"--a large enough complex to utilize the HVAC system, and to justify a full-time maintenance person.
One of the common criticisms of Albert Lea is that "there's nothing to do". Where WOULD you put on a concert--the high school gym? Great accoustics! How small town is THAT? We have no good venue for the performing arts, OR for touring companies.
One other enhancement--the auditorium would have a full-time tenant. Albert Lea Community Theatre plays to capacity houses--but since their season is short, the building costs are eating them up. Better to make them tenants of the larger auditorium, and charge them rent.
There ARE uses for the school, and they are uses that benefit the entire community. It would become a focal point--and the inclusion of the library makes it all possible. Compare the costs of renovation there with the possible benefits of "restoring downtown"--various plans have been promulgated for at least 40 years--all unsuccessful. This would be a better investment.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 16 2004,11:35 pm
Sounds great Jim, ever though of running for mayor? Sounds like you do a lot of research and have common sense. I agree that it would be great to do all the things you said, but how bad has the developer stripped it? Is it salvagable still?
Posted by cea on Mar. 22 2004,4:53 am
Hello all,I have to step in on this one and kill a few rumors... I have spend an extensive amount of time in the old building over the last 6 months and have found a few things to be not true.
The fires that have "destroyed" the school consisted of a bottle rocket that scorched a 2"X4" area of carpet on the ground floor of the building. The smell of burnt carpet still lingers in the small office that this "blaze" took place in, but its not a total loss; one might be able to open a window and save the building.
Nothing has been taken from the building, when the school sold the contents of the building (desks, chairs, computer, other junk) that was the last time anything has been removed from the building.
This building can still be saved.
In my opinion if someone wanted to they could walk in tomorrow flip a few switches and have it operating as it was 4 years ago. I have no reason to think that this building could not function with a little creativity, some paint, and public support.
Again this is my first hand experience, take it how you want.
I do not in any way own the building.
I do not represent the landowner.
but I am trying to saving an area of the building that will never be replaced..
John H.
Posted by farouk on Mar. 22 2004,8:08 am
Does the community have a buck to save this building?
Posted by MrTarzan on Mar. 22 2004,5:40 pm
That is encouraging news cea. I hope it is true and that it has not been stripped. What is the owner planning to do with it then? That still becomes the question.
Posted by minnow on Mar. 22 2004,6:17 pm
Interesting cea. Do you mean the walls aren't "crumbling" like Paul Sparks would have us believe? Why do you suppose Paul Sparks lied? Was it to make his decision to sell it for $1.00 more palatable to the public and make himself look better?
If so, why is Sparky lying to us...isn't that uncool and improper from a public official? It doesn't sound like the guy who's picture is posted on billboards to me...sounds more like a liar and theif.
Posted by collector on Mar. 22 2004,7:01 pm
When did Paul Sparks sell it for $1? Wasn't it the school district that sold it? Another 4 pages of innuendo about damage inside and being stripped of salvageable material. Anyone have firsthand knowledge of that to make those claims? You now have someone that has seen it and says it isn't so. Who are the sources that started this diatribe? Like most of the threads here, page after page of chatter blaming someone else for things that turn out to be rumor. Thanks cea for having some first hand knowledge. Amazing how the thread stopped after some real truth is announced. Not any fun to express opinions on things that didn't happen.
Posted by minnow on Mar. 22 2004,7:06 pm
It is more proof that Paul Sparks is a teller of non truths and is not to be trusted with money and assets. Sparks has been lone power broker for so long in the land of the uninformed, that he can't even tell himself what is right and wrong anymore.
Posted by hoosier on Mar. 22 2004,7:09 pm
I have been gone from the forum for a while, someone please explain this to me. We sold the building for 1 dollar, now they think they might have to buy it back? But for more than the 1 dollar it was bought for? If the city council approves paying any more than 1 dollar for it we should start a recall on everyone of the idiots. where in the hell do we get these people that run for office in this town?
Posted by The Advocate on Mar. 22 2004,7:58 pm
Collector, you are wrong. Communicating the way we do on this forum is not the same as speaking to someone face to face when non-verbal expressions are observable, when inflections in voice are obvious, and all forms of the process both verbal and non-verbal are instantaneous. This forum does share a wealth of information for the most part and like all areas of society we too, come into contact with people that get just half a story, want only the gossip, or those folks that really have something truthful and worthwhile to say. Because responses are not immediate one needs to look at this element a little differently than face to face exchanges. I think the truth is spoken very frequently here and you do not like that. Dissention is not condusive to the status quo and you obviously are a proponent for business as usual. Most people know the truth when they hear it.
Posted by collector on Mar. 22 2004,8:03 pm
Again Sparks gets blamed for selling it for 1 dollar and maybe buying it back. Where are the real facts? WHO SOLD IT? My understanding it was all the school district, not the city. Who put it up for sale? Who hired the realtor? Who finalized the deal? Wasn't it the school district alone? I am not a fan of Sparks, but give it up when he wasn't the one who started this whole mess or the rumors that started this thread. Like a lot of the threads it is all page after page of rumor. Check out the topics. Accident by Trails anyone know what happened? There is real factful piece. Is that the best news we can find? Or how about the posts that Culvers is coming, then some other truthsayer says no it isn't coming. Arbys is coming, but wont say where. Old Navy? For Gods sake get some facts and talk intelligently. Kind of like Roseanne Roseanna Danna talking intelligently and then whent he truth comes out she always said "Never mind". That is similar to the posts here. Once someone with real knowledge gives the facts, most of the rumor mongers stop posting about that topic and move to the next one.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 22 2004,8:38 pm
Here's where the rumors of the damage started. It's from an article in the Albert Tribune about a council meeting.| Quote |
The building, which as been vacant for more than four years, was sold to a Twin Cities developer. The building was sold for $1 in hopes a new owner would utilize it to the benefit of the community, according to City Manager Paul Sparks. But he has not and weather and under-use has led to its demise. Councilor Jeff Fjelstad walked through the building about a year ago and observed broken glass, mold and a ruined stage, he said. Recently, windows have been broken and people have built fires inside, Sparks said. The city's options include buying the building back but they would probably lose money in the deal. "(The developer) has been vague about how much he wants," Sparks said. Or they could try to gain the right to demolish it, which could include taking legal action, according to City Attorney Steve Schwab. A similar process was used to take down the deteriorated Farmland Foods building last year < building deterioration concerns city council > |
Posted by MrTarzan on Mar. 22 2004,8:40 pm
Your argument is self-defeating collector. Why should we listen to you then, by your own argument? This threads starter said that Feldstedt said, that should be good enough. Who is cea? I never heard of him before today. He might be the guy that bought the building for a dollar. You might be Sparks. I don't know. That is the fun of a forum. You have to sort it out and see what you believe. This is not a legitimate place of news often, but it can be when no one else reports what is happening. BBS boards, always have been this way, and always will be.
Posted by rosebudinal on Mar. 22 2004,9:46 pm
The best that the Tribune could come up with today for a headline was to resurrect the 10 commandments removal or possibly of it happening from Central Park. It was like they were inviting someone, anyone to say that they were offended by it. Like we don't have enough controversy in this bump in the road town.
Posted by cea on Mar. 22 2004,9:52 pm
My intent was not to muddy the waters about city government.I was just a little disturbed about how people will take any information they can get and twist it until it is the worst possible scenario. It is at that point that any government body almost has to take action. If I held a seat on the counsel and people were calling me; reporting all of these rumors to me, I too would believe it.
The point I am making is, I am not about to point a finger at the city leaders or the landowner. The landowner has good intentions for the building/property/community but everyone is giving him a bad name as well. The city seems to only be representing the people that elected them into office.
That’s my $0.02 worth for today.
Posted by minnow on Mar. 22 2004,9:57 pm
I suspect collector was one of the first to jump on the WMD bandwagon as well and still believes we'll find weapons of mass destruction buried in the desert...
Posted by cea on Mar. 24 2004,4:49 am
After rereading this whole topic again, I came across very harsh.... Sorry about that.P.s. I am not Mr. Sparks either
I'm just a person with a dream to own my own business.
If you want you can call me.... I'm always looking for advice, comments, and suggestions (641) 590-0034
Posted by irisheyes on Mar. 24 2004,6:27 am
| Quote (cea @ Mar. 24 2004,4:49:am) |
| After rereading this whole topic again, I came across very harsh.... Sorry about that. |
I've read all of your posts so far cea, I don't think you're being harsh. Maybe being blunt, but thats okay, most people on here are.
That looks like a Joice, Iowa phone number. Are you looking to start a business on our side of the border?
Posted by collector on Mar. 27 2004,9:35 am
I don't argue with the fact it happened. I argue with the fact of WHO sold the building? Because a quote appears that Sparks says it was sold to a developer for $1 doesn't mean he did it. I also point to the fact that someone again starts rumor that the building is crumbling and falling down. Was it true? Then we all jump on the bandwagon and curse everyone about the shape of the building and what a disgrace. I agree. Just be accurate before spending 4 pages of rumor. In those 4 pages of rumor, what solution was presented? And no Minnow, I don't believe there were WMD and I don't support that effort. Crazy as it seems, I agree in theory with you on many things. Not always crazy (well, maybe a little crazy) about your choice of words, but your theory is not bad. That is the purpose of the forum, agree, disagree, whatever, but do it respectfully. We all have our opinions. Mine is usually not the same as others. Lets sling mud in the right direction. I think others can admit that many times the posts are vicious rumor and people jump on it. BBS from the beginning was not designed to be a place to hash over rumors. Make it serious. Other posts are serious and are good. Keep the crap out.
Posted by The Advocate on Mar. 27 2004,10:38 am
Collector, I have to agree with you that I like the information and not the suppositions of others. Go to the Backroom Deals on this site for some real journalistic explorations. Liberal has done an excellent job of uncovering alledged wrong-doings and possible corruption at the City level, any newspaper reporter in this country could not have done a more comprehensive investigative job. You will find, Collector that there are actual E-mails straight from the main players and I personally would love to know how Paul Sparks is going to get out of this one. Rumors and innuendos are not in this post as the information is either on the record via the City Council meeting or written down in E-mails.
Posted by Nose for News on Mar. 27 2004,10:50 am
More Rumors started at City Hall ? Can anyone show crumbling walls at the Wal-Mart site?Is it hard spewing the party line talking points and trying to remember which empty building your spinning about?
Expensive renovation costs make former Wal-Mart site undesirable for library
By Benjamin Dipman, Tribune staff writer
What to do with the former Wal-Mart site remains undecided, ...
..."The building is not suitable for a library," said City Manager Paul Sparks, citing a dilapidated roof, poor structure and crumbling walls. "It's not in that good of shape. It's got a lot of problems. You will have to rebuild it."...
...If not used for the library, Sparks is unsure of what will happen to the building, nor is he concerned.
...
City officials have no interest in the building commercially or aesthetically, he said. Though the building is in poor condition, it does not appear to be a threat or violating any codes.
Posted by minnow on Mar. 27 2004,11:36 am
Well, in case you needed any more evidence....Paul Sparks is a chronic liar. We've seen this from him time and time again.Enough is enough. Doesn't Paul Sparks think 26 years is enough?
Posted by MrTarzan on Mar. 27 2004,4:02 pm
Collector I agree with you on most of your points most of the time. However, BBS's have always been a place for rumor, humor, argument and lies. The fun of them is sorting out what is true and debating it. For instance, if someone says that Lake Erie is the largest of the Great Lakes, and you know that not to be true, prove it with a source cited that is reputable. Otherwise take everything with a grain of salt and qualify your response with the sentence "if that is true, then....." and your can still jump in with how you feel without giving credence to faulty information. My first modem was a 3k, so arguments were short and sweet, now that we can even talk and have it typed, they get way more heated. In a public debate, a person can say what they want in an auditorium full of people, as long as they don't mind someone with a cd enclyclopedia making a fool of them.I agree that the information about the condition of the Wal-Mart is suspicious at best. But, I am not a structural engineer.
Posted by minnow on Mar. 27 2004,4:13 pm
"But, I am not a structural engineer."EXACTLY! You nailed it. And that's exactly how Sparky operates. Praying on the citizens ignorance.
Gee...Sparky must be right because he's so much smarter that me...He must know more, he king and I not.
Posted by collector on Mar. 28 2004,9:58 am
I have read that one and it is good. At least it is good credible information with substance. You are right, it deserves to be debated and many feel the same way. I don't support Sparks nor am I in the silent majority on the signs around town. I am not Sparks as Minnow made reference to nor do I work for the city or county. I don't work for the Chamber either. I am not on the Watershed Board. I am not employed by the newspaper. I am not employed by Seabord Farms or any pork producer, or any meat packer at all. I don't own or work for a retail establishment in the city or county. Heck, I don't even work in Albert Lea or Freeborn County for many reasons. I haven't for more than 10 years. I have been a resident in the city all my life. I pay taxes here. I worked in Iowa for awhile, but that isn't any better no matter what Iowegian says in his/her many posts. I have seen businesses come and go. Mostly go. We were prosperous in the 70's with the good manufacturing jobs around here. That is what we need again. I don't claim to have the answers. I don't keep hashing things that can't be changed today. They can be changed when voting comes up for councilors and commissioners. Until then it is all wishful thinking. How do we get everyone out to vote when that time comes? Voter turnout has always been horrible here. That is the true majority.
Posted by Nose for News on Mar. 28 2004,12:47 pm
Oh What A Tangled Web we Weave When We First Practice To DeceiveSpin
| Quote (collector @ Mar. 22 2004,8:03:pm) |
| Where are the real facts? ...the rumors that started this thread. Like a lot of the threads it is all page after page of rumor...... For Gods sake get some facts and talk intelligently... Once someone with real knowledge gives the facts, most of the rumor mongers stop posting about that topic and move to the next one. |
More Spin
| Quote (collector @ Mar. 28 2004,9:58:am) |
| How do we get everyone out to vote when that time comes? Voter turnout has always been horrible here. That is the true majority. |
Voter turnout tops 87 percent in county
By Masaaki Harada, Tribune staff writer Nov 6 2002
Freeborn County's 87.66 percent voter turnout was higher than election officials expected - among the highest for a non-presidential election. In some polling places, voters needed to stay in line even after 8 p.m., and waits of more than an hour were reported at times.
The county's turnout rate put it among the top five out of the state's 87 counties.
County Auditor Dennis Distad attributed the high voter turnout to the fierce competition, especially for local offices.
"We had awfully good candidates for both the city and county," Distad said. "This was also the first time in a long time that the incumbent has not run for sheriff. That could be another factor."
The sudden change on the ballot because of U.S. Senate Paul Wellstone's death did not trigger visible confusion in the vote. Though the separate ballot for the senate election needed to be counted by hand in each precinct, the whole process went off without any significant delay.
Distad said, "I take my hat off to election judges in the county. They were super."
The facts don't match the spin
Posted by MrTarzan on Mar. 28 2004,4:34 pm
Hear, hear, Nose for news. I have never experienced better political involvement anywhere in the country, and unlike collector, I have lived all over this country North, South, East and West. The people here are very involved and passionate about politics.
Posted by collector on Mar. 28 2004,5:19 pm
I will give you the last election having large turnout. You can check stats for any other in the past and not find that. Unfortunately, the higher turnout was a huge majority of the residents by those numbers so are we to imply that the candidates elected and their actions now are approved by that same majority? My point is threads such as the county jailer who was fired. How much fact was in that? Many people jumped on that bandwagon with rumors and speculation. The reason it isn't released is privacy laws, but posters put things in here and people take it as fact. The same goes for the thread on Jeff Fjelstad and who he was dating. Same with the rumor of prostitutes run by him. The thread was actually about an unfortunate situation with an employee of which there were facts stated. It then turned to a rumor mill about his side business. Read previous posts. They aren't spin and they aren't meant to deceive. If anyone is deceiving anyone, it is the fact that people spout about the next election to clean house and what a mess we have with elected officials. According to your figures that makes those posts spin as you call it. The majority spoke at the last election. Or are those numbers not accurate?
Posted by minnow on Mar. 28 2004,6:49 pm
I'm certainly not arguing the fact that most Albert Lea voters have been wrong in the past. I mean, just look at the results.
Posted by Nose for News on Mar. 28 2004,8:04 pm
Just Posting the News (sometimes it isn't what we want to hear )collector's answers: Doesn't the government answer the same way when caught in spin ?
Next will we see personal attacks against anyone who presents facts differing from their spin?
This thinking process is very predictable . Many gov officials think the same way.
This is why the internet is giving fits to local gov. They are used to saying anything that sounds good or shuts people up at the time and not used to having the forum residents check it out.
Don't shoot the messengers.
Next time do your namesake collect the facts first ,then post
Welcome to the Forum
Websters
spin:to evolve express or fabricate by processes of mind or imagination ; a yarn
yarn a narrative of adventures; esp: a tall tale
Posted by Navin on Mar. 28 2004,8:39 pm
| Quote |
Unfortunately, the higher turnout was a huge majority of the residents by those numbers so are we to imply that the candidates elected and their actions now are approved by that same majority? |
Right, everybody knows that a large voter turnout means the majority of voters approves of the actions of the local government.
It's a percentage thing. Your argument only works if everyone voted the same way.
That's elementary school logic
Posted by collector on Mar. 29 2004,7:46 pm
Talk about spin. Everyone talks about how many days until they clean house, ie: next election. The results could be the same as the last election. The meaning behind clean house is the voters will overwhelmingly vote to clean things up. According to Nose for News that happened already. Also pointed out that large voter turnout doesn't mean majority approves of the actions. OK, what does large voter turnout prove then? What cleaning house will take place? Again, using the same logic, that statement means nothing will probably change. Unfortunate, but true.
Posted by minnow on Mar. 29 2004,7:53 pm
Well, let me put it this way. If these county clowns aren't swept out, I'm givng up. Yes, that's right...I'll quit posting.If the people don't care enough, I don't either. It'd just be a waste of my time and I'll move on.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 29 2004,8:56 pm
| Quote |
The meaning behind clean house is the voters will overwhelmingly vote to clean things up. |
Actually it means, "To eliminate or discard what is undesirable" you know like Behrends, Springborg and Mullenbach.
| Quote |
Also pointed out that large voter turnout doesn't mean majority approves of the actions. OK, what does large voter turnout prove then? |
It proves that a lot of people turned out to vote and that's all it proves.
If the candidates were elected by a large majority of the votes then you could make an argument that the majority approves of the actions. Even that would be a weak argument because sometimes you find out the person elected was a lying bastard that switches sides after he's elected.
Posted by collector on Apr. 01 2004,9:41 pm
I agree with that. Everyone keeps talking about cleaning house at the next election. It could be a clean house with new people, but they will probably do the same thing. It is a vicious circle. Sad part is the majority spoke at the last election. They will also speak at the next one. This argument can go on forever.