Topic: Albert Lea lake winter kill
started by: Liberal
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 13 2004,1:50 pm
Albert Lea lake is in the process of a winter kill and the fish have all headed into the channel, the DNR has opened the lake to promiscuous fishing.This might not have happened if they would have put aerators near the channel.
Posted by Madd Max on Feb. 13 2004,2:02 pm
Great Pic 
Are the 2 aerators they do have running? Were are they located ? It looks like the lake improvement people need to get another aerator to better cover the lake. 
It looks like mostly carp in the picture do you see alot of game fish or not?
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 13 2004,2:08 pm
One of the guys that regularly fishes the area mentioned that there were some really big walleyes--more than 10 pounds, carp, sheephead, but no northerns. The carp seem to be doing the best--the walleys the least.One of the guys that works out here--and an avid outdoorsman--said that if you wait too long to turn on aerators, it builds oxygen levels low in the lake, and the aerators turn the "dead", unoxygenated water into the oxygenated zone. Anybody have any verification on this?
I'm sure most of the fish didn't even make it up the shallow channel--leading to a big fish kill on AL Lake itself. Too bad for "Carp World"--but there should be a HUGE turtle population!
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 13 2004,2:09 pm
Here is another picture.
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 13 2004,2:24 pm
My guess is the DNR will want to shut down those aerators near I35 next week to make sure the winter kill is complete including the rough fish. It will probably be up to the county board to make the final decision on shutting them off though.The county should get ahold of that person that nets the carp in the summer and have them get the fish out of that channel at least. Because it is going to stink come spring.
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 13 2004,2:55 pm
Jim, what you heard about the aerators being turned on late and mixing the good with the bad is true. Usually the oxygen closer to the surface goes bad first, and then when the aerators are turned on late the mixing of the surface water and water near the bottom expedites the oxygen depletion and the winter kill.
Posted by LisaMarie on Feb. 13 2004,4:17 pm
So that's what the big hubub at the channel this afternoon was.
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 13 2004,4:21 pm
| Quote |
It looks like mostly carp in the picture do you see alot of game fish or not? |
Fisherman had taken all the walleye out before I got there(but a lot were still looking for walleye to snag). I did see some perch floating on top of the water dead but other than that it was all sheephead and carp. The game fish are probably already dead in the lake and most likely didn't make it to the channel with the carp.
About the aerators, the lake was at its lowest level in at least 15 years and people were already expecting a large winter kill so it's hard to believe that the aerators were turned on late this year.
Rumor is that if we will shut off the aerators and let the lake die completly the DNR has promised to stock fingerlings in the spring but it will be a quite a few years before the lake has any fish worth catching if we do that.
I sure wouldn't want to be the person making the decision on whether or not we shut down the aerators and let the lake die completely.
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 13 2004,5:02 pm
If you know of where a farm drain tile dumps into the lake, go drill a hole and it may fill up with fish. These areas are some of the last areas that were receiving runoff water, and may be where some of the game fish ended up.
Posted by minnow fan on Feb. 13 2004,5:12 pm
| Quote (cwolff @ Feb. 13 2004,5:02:pm) |
| If you know of where a farm drain tile dumps into the lake, go drill a hole and it may fill up with fish. These areas are some of the last areas that were receiving runoff water, and may be where some of the game fish ended up. |
The fish may have 3 eyes (ala The Simpsons) due to farm run off but hey.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 13 2004,6:01 pm
The China Palace should be having fish soup for days 
Posted by GEOKARJO on Feb. 13 2004,6:05 pm
My pic is just as cool
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 13 2004,6:20 pm
*gag* "Fish heads, fish heads, roly-poly fish heads/ Fish heads, fish heads, eat them up - yum!"
Posted by minnow fan on Feb. 13 2004,6:21 pm
You just want to be like the minnow fan don't you Geo? Let me top you once & for all, I could see a mad rush to the DMV to get this one.
Posted by repdan on Feb. 13 2004,11:16 pm
The DNR denied the application for a 2nd aerator. They will be doing a lake survey early next week and may shut off the aerator. If there is a full kill they will re-stock the lake in the spring. This highlights the problems with the DNR's management of the lake. We need to get the dam replaced in order to control the water height.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 13 2004,11:58 pm
Dr Demento Rulz Clovis
Posted by Madd Max on Feb. 14 2004,9:06 am
Good point Dan You are right on course with the dam. I thought that the dam was to be replaced in 04 or 05? Where are we at with that? How much funding can we get from the DNR or the state for a new dam or Due we have to raise the money for the new dam ourselves?
Posted by Clovis on Feb. 14 2004,9:15 am
Looks like we have a big dam problem on our hands.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 14 2004,9:17 am
I would be willing to bet that a new dam, which is important for many reasons including bringing in tourism, will not be built before we buy another library I love books and libraries, but I don't see how that would be built before a new dam
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 14 2004,10:02 am
I don't understand how a new dam would have helped with the low water level A new dam couldn't have raised the water level last summer, only rain could have done that. I agree that a new dam is needed and it's really important but it's needed to draw the lake down in the fall and to minimize the bounce in the spring so our lakeshore will quit eroding.Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me the only way to insure that this won't happen again is to do some limited dredging and/or add more aerators. And if we don't do something about the cause of this kill then what's the point in even restocking? Who's to say we won't have a dry spell 5-6 years from now and have another complete kill?
I wonder why the DNR would even consider stocking fingerlings in a lake that can suffer a complete winter kill?
Posted by Nose for News on Feb. 14 2004,11:21 am
Natural Fish KillsDead and dying fish are an ugly sight. Truth is, most species of fish are relatively short-lived and have a high rate of mortality. Even large fish, too large to be eaten by predators such as bass and pike, experience a death rate of approximately 50% per year. Fortunately, the deaths are usually spread-out over the year and are rarely observed or become a problem except when concentrated as a "fish kill". The condition called "fish kill" occurs when a number of fish in a given body of water die from a specific cause. Most of the time, fish kills are due to natural causes over which we have no control, such as weather. Only occasionally is death directly related to pollution or improper use of herbicides or other chemicals. Only a fraction of the dead fish are ever observed because many decompose on the bottom or are eaten by scavengers such as turtles and crayfish.
Winter kill
Winter kill is the most common type of fish kill. When severe, it has devastating effects on fish populations and fishing quality. Winter kill occurs during especially long, harsh winters. Shallow lakes with excess amounts of aquatic vegetation and mucky bottoms are prone to this problem. The results of a winter kill are seldom noticed until spring when the ice melts. Then the dead fish, often the larger ones, are seen washing up along the edge. Because they require more oxygen, the large fish suffocate and die first. Winter kill begins with distressed fish gasping for air at holes in the ice and ends with large numbers of dead fish which bloat as the water warms in early spring. Dead fish may appear fuzzy because of secondary infection by fungus, but the fungus was not the cause of death.
Actually, the fish suffocated from lack of dissolved oxygen. Trace amounts of dissolved oxygen (measured in parts per million, ppm) are required by fish and all other forms of aquatic life. Even living plants and the bacteria that decompose organic materials on the bottom of the lake require oxygen. As a rule of thumb, the critical level of oxygen is about 2 ppm for most game fish native to warmwater lakes, and levels below 1 ppm for extended periods of time are lethal.
But species of fish vary in their tolerance of low oxygen. Trout are most sensitive; walleye, bass, and bluegill have intermediate sensitivity; and northern pike, yellow perch, and pumpkinseed are relatively tolerant. Bullheads and certain minnows are very tolerant. Lakes prone to periodic winterkill can often be detected from the composition of their fish populations - tolerant species predominate, sensitive species are rare, and prey greatly outnumber predators. Fortunately, usually enough fish survive, either in the lake or in connecting waters, to repopulate the lake in a couple of years. Only for extreme die-offs is fish restocking necessary.
The dissolved oxygen content of water depends primarily on three variables. These are the amount of mixing with the air above the lake, the rate of oxygen production by plants, and the rate of oxygen consumption (respiration) by living aquatic organisms. During periods of prolonged ice cover, the lake is sealed off from the atmosphere and cannot be recharged with oxygenated air. Furthermore, ice and snow reduce the amount of sunlight reaching aquatic plants, thereby reducing photosynthesis and oxygen production. (During photosynthesis, living plants use sunlight energy and carbon dioxide to make plant tissue and dissolved oxygen). Meanwhile, on-going consumption of oxygen depletes the supply of oxygen stored in the lake when the lake froze over. Shallow, productive lakes are at a disadvantage because they have a low storage capacity and high rates of oxygen-consuming decomposition.
In northern NY, January is usually a critical period and is the best time to check the oxygen content of lakes prone to winterkill. A good midwinter thaw about then often recharges the lake's oxygen supply by means of photosynthesis and melt water. Conversely, a prolonged winter, with continuous snow cover and late ice-out, increases the chance of winterkill.
The only long-term solution for winterkill lakes is to reverse the natural process of filling and enrichment (eutrophication). Dredging or sucking bottom sediments can increase the volume of water, reduce the nutrient-rich sediment, and reduce the growth of nuisance plants. However, such projects are extremely costly, require a site for disposing of the bottom material, and may require a permit. Lake residents can help slow down the rate of eutrophication by keeping all types of plant fertilizers out of the lake.
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 14 2004,11:29 am
Repdan, the dam is the main cause for poor water quality other than the poorly designed runoff drainage system with high phosphorous levels.The dam causes higher static water levels, and the water level cannot flucuate lower and higher naturally as needed to revegetate itself. Dams cause the lighter cleaner water to go over the top, while the heavier sediment laden water gets held up by the dam, allowing sediments to settle onto the lake bottom.
With all of the rough fish mostly dead, now is the time for a severe drawdown on the lake to revegetate the lake. The sun light cannot penetrate dirty cloudy water and sediment depths to germinate seeds for the regrowth of vegetation. By drawing down lake levels, the exposed sediments will compact (consolidate) upon itself upto a foot, and the dormant seeds, which will survive for over a hundred years until conditions are right, will be closer to the substrate surface for germination. Yes, you could gain upwards of a foot of water depth by compacting (consolidating) the sediments.
The new vegetation will act like a filtration system by filtering out sediments, nutrients, and pollutants, and provide very important habitat for fish and wildlife. Vegetation will also provide habitat for invertebrates, which is a very important food source for newly hatched ducklings. Winter killing the minnows in the lake will provide ducks less competition for feeding on invertebrates, otherwise minnows can quickly deplete the invertebrate populations within a lake.
Getting rid of the carp and other rough fish will prevent the vegetation from getting rooted up and sediments from getting resuspended causing turbidity.
Last fall the DNR treated Lake Christina with rotenone to kill all of the fish, while targeting rough fish. The last time this was done on this lake, 97% of the lake revegetated, and over 100,000 canvasback ducks stopped over during the next fall migration to forage on the abundant food source.
Now is the right time for Albert Lea to take advantage of the winter kill off of the rough fish. If you leave water levels at a higher static state, you will not get near the revegetation that could occur with a severe drawdown. Act now!
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 14 2004,11:42 am
Yes Clovis it is a dam big problem Liberal, What would a new dam do? Actually that depends on the dam and accompaning projects. Dredging is one answer, diversion and restoration in the long run is cheaper, they do it routinely out west. Just dig back down to the gravel, (we do have one of the largest gravel bottom lakes in the country) and you create a natural filter again. The problem with dredging is that it just moves a lot of silt around while you are removing bottom. Better than nothing but not efficient. I have attended two different presentations for a great dam design built by a local engineer who really did his homework. He is retired and does not want anything for his design, which the Corps of Engineers is going to adopt for use in other areas, and it will carry away bottom sediment and deepen the lake naturally, especially if the dredging is done. While dredging, and it sounds like that is the decided course by our local committees, you must have excellent flow to maximize the siltage so that it is carried downstream. Then we get the most bang for our bucks. Deeper water with strong flow is far less likely to become suffocating. If I remember my Ecosystem 101 class from college correctly, what is happening to Albert Lea Lake is called eutrification (sp?) which is the filling in of a lake with leaves and natural debris until it is a meadow. However this lake was filled in by man dumping everything from yardwaste and appliances to entire carcasses from the old Wilson plant. Dredging without a new flow control dam won't accomplish much.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 14 2004,11:46 am
Great post, cwolff. Very true in the existing state of this lake.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 14 2004,11:48 am
Several friends went down to "fish"--some coming back with huge walleyes--biggest 9 lbs. Just curious--why couldn't these fish be dropped into Fountain lake? Are they too far gone? (The fish taken are still alive). Why COULDN'T these fish be released above the dam, or dumped into an aerator tank before being released? If someone would organize it, I'm sure a lot of people would volunteer--nobody wants to see fish go to waste. Anybody know the answer?
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 14 2004,11:58 am
Fish fry at the Salvation Army, everyone welcome,dat's the answer Seriously, those things could be done jimhanson, but c'mon, here? First we would have to have a committee, and a study and a outside survey and then it would have to be debated, analyzed and fought over. As soon as the volunteers showed they would start fighting over who should put which fish where and someone would get pushed into the lake. Still, it would be fun to watch all the squabbles.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 14 2004,12:12 pm
People will usually cooperate during natural disasters, tornado's, fires, floods--look at all the people that fill sandbags. If the game fish would survive, I'm sure there would be any number of people that would move them above the dam--but it would take a LEADER--someone to take charge, someone that people respect.Oh, I forgot. Never Mind.
Seriously, still curious, though, would the fish make it?
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 14 2004,12:19 pm
Jim. It's easy enough to find the answer to your question about throwing them back into fountain lake. Just go ask your friends with the walleye how they feel about tossing their fish back into fountain lake after they drug them out of the channel.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 14 2004,12:50 pm
I already had asked the question--and the answers were inconclusive--one said he was going to eat his "because he didn't want it to go to waste". The other was the one that said "why can't these be released into Fountain Lake?" The DNR was present. If they ARE going to completely kill off AL Lake (undecided), why NOT put the fish into Fountain Lake, where the aerators have mitigated fish kills?
It's as though people require "permission" to take action. I don't know that there ISN'T a law against releasing game fish into a lake--but there may be a law against introducing non-game fish.
People have been so conditioned to asking the government permission that they won't take action on their own.
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 14 2004,1:46 pm
Jim, for the DNR to move the fish would require work, and don't forget that it is a little cold out. Also, the pay is the same if they just leave the fish where they are dieing.
Posted by Nose for News on Feb. 14 2004,4:07 pm
DNR winter kill planned to improve Geneva LakeEfforts to reclaim Geneva Lake underway (2004-02-10)
Like an old building that has suffered from years of neglect, Geneva Lake, north of Albert Lea along I-35, is in need of a transformation. And it's getting one. If all goes according to plan, improved habitat conditions will bring abundant wildlife back to Geneva Lake. Yellow perch and sunfish will flourish with improved food and cover.
Last August, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) initiated efforts to restore aquatic habitats in Geneva Lake. By reducing or eliminating large populations of carp and other undesirable fish species, desirable aquatic plants will come back and provide better habitat for wildlife and fish.
"The combined effects of abundant fish such as carp and black bullhead, several years of prolonged flooding, and poor water clarity due to suspended silt and algae blooms have nearly eliminated the once abundant aquatic plants," explained Jeanine Vorland, DNR Area Wildlife Manager at Owatonna,
"As a result, little wildlife visit the lake and desirable fish species are severely limited by competition for food and lack of good quality habitats."
Limiting undesirable fish will help underwater aquatic plants to grow. "Submergent plants generally come back if water clarity improves and they aren't being rooted up by the feeding actions of carp," Vorland said.
Vorland noted that the lake has also lost many acres of emergent plants, such as rushes and cattails that provide important habitat and water quality functions of their own. "These plants are adapted to the natural cycles of drought and most species require exposed lake bottom to grow from seed," Vorland said.
Creating conditions for a fish winterkill is a key first step in the reclamation process. The DNR installed a system of siphons over the dam last fall in order to lower water levels during the fall and winter, making the lake more susceptible to a winterkill, Vorland said.
"Drawdowns mimic the effects of natural drought to rejuvenate shallow lakes," Vorland explained. "And, in this case, the managed drawdown has been assisted by a natural drought." (In anticipation of a winterkill, the DNR opened the lake to liberalized fishing in order to utilize as many fish as possible.)
Unfortunately, Vorland noted, the early snow-free winter allowed sunlight to penetrate the water, creating good oxygen levels. Vorland is hoping the recent heavy snowfall will adequately block sunlight and encourage winterkill conditions.
Lowering the lake also lowers water levels in the lake's inlets so undesirable fish cannot find refuge in adjacent streams. Screens will also be placed at the dam to prevent carp from jumping the dam and returning to the lake from downstream sources.
The water management plan calls for lowering water levels about 18 inches to 2 feet during the growing season to expose bottom soils around the lake margins. The amount of lake bottom exposed will vary from several yards to up to a few hundred yards in the shallow north bay. It is anticipated that water levels will be allowed to recover naturally beginning in mid-to-late summer.
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Feb. 14 2004,5:16 pm
I don't think the DNR would encourage any type of restocking like that because it would be hard to tell what was being thrown into Fountain. All we need is some wise-a$s throwing in exotic species or some of those monster carp that could reproduce and destroy Fountain's habitat for native fish. On the Miss. they are talking about putting up electrified barriers to stop the spread of some kind of Asian carp that someone decided to release into the river at some point.
I went down to harvest (it really isn't fishing) early today and it was pretty packed. got about half of a 5 gallon bucket of nice size perch and 1 northern. I think the northern are still making their way up the channel because we were getting them on the south side of the second bridge after the dam.
Lots of people spear fishing down there. Lots of Dads teaching their sons how to spear fish.
Definately some of the largest carp I have ever seen down there. Under this fishing law, you can harvest rough fish (i.e. carp, suckers, etc) and openly sell them. Might be some money to be made if you could find a buyer and figure out how to get a refer. truck to get them to the customer that wouldn't take more than you make.
If you decide to go down there, brig a good net and at least hip waders, the shore and ice edge is pretty crowded.
Posted by repdan on Feb. 14 2004,11:14 pm
I hope to get some state funding for a new dam this session, but if not we should be prepared to foot the bill. An adjustable height dam would have helped keep the water level up. If you go look at the current dam you can see the problem. The bounce is going to be harder to control since the Shellrock on the other side of the dam tends to back up.
Posted by minnow on Feb. 14 2004,11:39 pm
You'd have to be mad to eat any fish out of the sewer. Test one and see for yourself. The lake is nothing more that a sewer.
Posted by Nose for News on Feb. 15 2004,12:47 am
"I hope to get some state funding for a new dam this session, but if not we should be prepared to foot the bill." repdanMN Shoreland Management Resource Guide
The DNR inspects all private and public dams and associated structures and administers a grant program to local governments that provides up to 50% of the cost to repair locally owned dams.
< http://www.shorelandmanagement.org/depth/rivers/18.html >
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 15 2004,7:32 am
| Quote |
| "Drawdowns mimic the effects of natural drought to rejuvenate shallow lakes," Vorland explained. |
If we did not have a useless dam in the way, nature would naturally revert to lower water levels to rejuvenate shallow lakes. But man needs to have dams in place, so that they can let water out of the lake when they think it is the best time, and then they call it "mimicing the effects of a natural drought." Man has decided that they know best when to have a drawdown compared to Mother Nature.
This is why Minnesota lakes are in terrible shape, because of mismanagement. All lakes with dams have their water levels higher than they should, and all the interrelated delicate ecosystems are disrupted because they are not fully understood. Man also likes high water so that the waves can crash onto the shoreline and erode sediments into the lake.
Water levels are suprisingly usually managed for a single species, and not for all species. At Heron Lake, we manage for one species, and that species needs the water levels raised in the fall to be able to run a motor boat to their favorite hunting spot.
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 15 2004,7:33 am
| Quote |
An adjustable height dam would have helped keep the water level up. If you go look at the current dam you can see the problem. |
The channel is not wide enough to control the bounce of that big lake. So we need to build a very long curved dam that is adjustable to draw down the lake during years when we have high water conditions in the fall. That way it will stop the lake from running out of its banks and washing the shore away during the spring thaw when the water can't get down the river fast enough.
During dry years like this last year the dam would not be used in the fall to draw down the lake because lake levels are already so low that there is/was a danger of a winter kill. The new dam might increase the depth of the lake over many years by flushing silt from the bottom of the lake through the lower gates. But it certainly can't put water in the lake during a dry year.
I'm not a big advocate of dredging because I'm old enough to remember the dredge rusting in the channel after fountain lake was dredged and Albert Lea lake was ignored. And I'm sure that if dredging is done again we will start with fountain lake and who knows if we will ever get farther than the channel. But if we don't want another winter kill like this then we need to get some depth in that lake and like Cwolff pointed out this is a perfect time to do a drawdown. We have no big reproducing fish in the lake right now so lets draw it down to a channel in the middle and get a blade in there and make a couple deep holes for the fish and let the silt consolidate. If we have an explosion of cat tail on the south side of the lake then we can deal with that problem later, but let's not be stupid and restock a dead lake, wait for the fish to get to reproducing size and then draw down the lake or suffer another winter kill.
We need to clearly identify the source of this problem and not go off half cocked attacking a different but equally important problem.
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 15 2004,7:59 am
| Quote |
| The channel is not wide enough to control the bounce of that big lake. So we need to build a very long curved dam that is adjustable to draw down the lake during years when we have high water conditions in the fall. That way it will stop the lake from running out of its banks and washing the shore away during the spring thaw when the water can't get down the river fast enough. |
Liberal
The reason lakes are not able to handle bounces is that the lakes are held full of water. There is very little room for water during rain storm events. All water entering the lake would absolutely cause more shoreline ersosion and cause more flooding. If lakes did not have dams, the water levels would be low enough to handle some of the storm water runoff.
Liberal, without a dam some years water conditions will be very low and yes the fish will die, but in order to have a healthy lake you must learn to take the good years with the bad years. You cannot expect and demand to have excellent fishing conditions every year, otherwise you would be putting your fishing priorities ahead of the health of the lake, which is exactly what is happening on many of Minnesota's lakes where man's priorities are put ahead of the health of lakes.
A curved dam is not going to increase your channel size. The down stream channel is controlling your flow. You would have to widen the channel itself to get more water flowage. The DNR has told me several times when I have requested to remove a dam that it would not make any difference since the outlet channel controls the flow not the dam. My response was that if the outlet channel controls the flow, then why do we need a dam to control the flow?
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 15 2004,8:35 am
We have no choice about the channel size because the narrow spot in the channel is a bridge with a well traveled county road running over it. I think that's why they talked of building a curved dam with gates on the bottom to wash silt underneath.I understand you would like to see the lakes revert back to their natural state and most of us know that winterkills are just a part of the natural process of shallow lakes. But what we're really looking to accomplish here in Freeborn County is turning Albert Lea lake into more of a recreational lake complete with good fishing and winterkills don't fit into that plan. Also like most residents I have no problem putting good fishing in front of the health of the lake because most people judge the health of a lake by the size of the fish you can catch in it anyways. And it's hard to convince someone that all the fish dying in your lake is really just a sign of a good healthy lake.
I do agree with you that the dam is the cause of most of the silt in our lake. But because the dam has filled the lake with silt if we remove it now Albert Lea lake would become a giant marsh.
Posted by Mamma on Feb. 15 2004,10:17 am
I have a question for you sportsmen out there. What on earth is a guy going to do with a pickup box full of fish? I know that the gov. doesn't recommend eating more than a couple a week. Why are they digging around in the dying fish looking for trophy size walleye? Are they going to have them mounted with a plaque on them that says "netted dying fish from Albert Lea Lake? Why because they are free, would a sane person want to take more than they could possibly use? I guess I just don't understand the mentality.
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Feb. 15 2004,10:19 am
But all of this aside, if the channel were made deep enough to accommodate the barrage of silt that would be flushed from upstream as well as extra water capacity, a lot of these problems could be lessened or even avoided all together. A wider channel would be nice, but that would require more construction than a deeper channel. But again we are right back to where we started months ago on this topic, these are prairie lakes and were never meant to last forever, only with proper management can these lakes continue to survive.Now my next question is how on earth would a new dam be able to raise the lake level during a dry spell without lowering the level somewhere else? Doesn't anyone understand the simple cause and effect of dams? if you restrict the flow via a damn, then anything downstream will get lower (the water level), not stay the same.
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Feb. 15 2004,10:24 am
Some people are going crazy with collecting fish, but most are not taking more than they can eat/clean. Like myslef, the fish I harvested will be feeding 6 people tonight. I just wish someone would start collecting all those carp and sell them before AL has an odor problem that is going to be beyond belief.
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 15 2004,12:48 pm
| Quote |
| Also like most residents I have no problem putting good fishing in front of the health of the lake because most people judge the health of a lake by the size of the fish you can catch in it anyways. |
Saying that you do not care about the health of the lake is the same as saying you do not care about your own health or the health of your children.
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 15 2004,1:06 pm
I didn't say that I don't care about the health of the lake. I just think that your idea of a healthy lake and my idea of a healthy lake are probably a little different. Minnow,
There is nothing wrong with eating fish out of Albert Lea lake. The only restriction is that the DNR recommends limiting your intake of carp over 20" to once a week. (unless you're a pregnant woman)
< Albert Lea Lake information report > Scroll down to "Meal Advice for the General Population"
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 15 2004,1:30 pm
I agree more with your idea of a healthy lake Liberal. The best protection for it in the long run is making it a lake that people love to use and will be willing to spend on. I don't understand why everyone keeps saying that restoring it involves keeping it shallow. When it was first "discovered" and surveyed, was'nt the average depth 14 feet? Maybe Ed Shannon can clarify that. I know that it did have a gravel bottom with clams and everything normal balance. If we are really going to restore the lake, should'nt it be dug out to the natural gravel bottom? Then the depth should be 14 feet, should'nt it? The lake was full of game fish then. Ole1, it clearly stated in the paper that the DNR liberal fishing DID NOT include commercial equipment, so that is probably why none has arrived. You are probably correct that it should have been not only allowed, but sought after. Surely the DNR has a list of commercial companies allowed to operate here, but they are government employees and not likely to take any extra steps not required.
Posted by minnow on Feb. 15 2004,1:35 pm
Of course you all know that I've been right about everything thus far.He you go: Now listen very carefully.
There will ne NO measurable changes in that lake in our lifetime, no matter what we do to it or how much money we throw in it.
period.
Time will, of course, prove me correct again.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 15 2004,1:51 pm
Minnow,I could agree with you because of what I perceive to be a paralysis on the part of local government, and polarization of the voting populace on what is the best plan, but if something is to actually be put into plan, regardless of which plan, it will change. None of the top three plans I have seen in the local press, (those which have enough backing that they might make it to reality) are going to fail to make an impact. It is the degree of impact that seperates the plans, and I hope the most effecient is the one adopted, whichever that is determined to be. I don't want to see more money wasted like with the school, and the rusty old dredge mentioned earlier.
Still, I remember standing on the shores of Lake Erie as a youth when the lake was dead and we went there to start picking up garbage. Today it is a thriving fishery, so it can be changed in our lifetime easily. If you are saying it is because of all the arguing, you may be right, but not because doing something won't change it. It will.
Posted by Madd Max on Feb. 15 2004,2:03 pm
Question:Do we as Citizens have the right to speak at the Watershed board meeting? If we do then maybe we had better start speaking up. Lets start fixing the problem. If we need a new dam Then lets find the monies and get a new dam built,if we are going to draw down, well it looks like as good as time as any. I am sick and tired of the lipservice we all get Lets get involved and fix the problem It will only make the quality of life better here for all of us and our children and grandchildren.
Let leave the area better then our fore fathers left it for us 
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 15 2004,2:14 pm
Amen Mad Max, AmenWhen are the meetings anyway?
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Feb. 15 2004,9:13 pm
I didn't mean for commercial harvesting of the rough fish, I was hoping a few private people might want to cash in on the idea, although not many people have access to a refer truck real readily. Transport would probably be the biggest problem.
Posted by guppie on Feb. 15 2004,9:20 pm
just keep scooping, just keep scooping...
Posted by minnow fan on Feb. 15 2004,9:29 pm
| Quote (Mamma @ Feb. 15 2004,10:17:am) |
| I guess I just don't understand the mentality. |
It is the Albert Lea mentality.
"What, you mean these fish are FREE? WOW!!! Hey bubba, pull the truck over here, free fish!!!"
Posted by minnow on Feb. 15 2004,10:06 pm
LOL Exactly...you must know Albert lea...LOL 
Posted by rosebudinal on Feb. 15 2004,10:47 pm
They are just making sure all life form is dead in Albert Lea, including the fish. Or at least brought down to a population of 12,000!!!!!
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 15 2004,11:21 pm
"Fish are friends, not food" - Finding Nemo
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 16 2004,6:21 am
Madmax, ask to be put on the watershed agenda to speak about the dam, otherwise if it is already on the agenda and the board is discussing the dam, ask the chairman during the meeting if you could say a few words about the subject. You may have to make your request to be on the agenda at least 7 days prior to the meeting date.
Posted by Tiger on Feb. 16 2004,9:06 am
I did hear of one guy that is going to mount one of the fish he "caught." I would not want a fish that I netted to be hanging on my wall. Half the fun of having a fish mounted is the story that goes with it. Will this guy tell the grandkids about the "fight" this fish put up? Something I heard over the weekend, DNR= Department of Negative Results
Posted by minnow fan on Feb. 16 2004,9:27 am
DNR = Damn near Russia
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 16 2004,3:58 pm
I hear it is bringing in "Sportsmen" from Iowa and all over southern MN. Finally the lake is bringing in tourists, and we did'nt even have to do anything or spend anything. Looks like all the feet draggers were right after all.
Posted by iowegian on Feb. 17 2004,4:33 pm
I saw a few really nice bullheads (we like to come up to MN to catch those) but I wouldn't eat them out of your lake where you've had raw sewage dumps for years.
Posted by Tiger on Feb. 17 2004,4:38 pm
We are having Northern fillets on the grill tonight. Can't wait!
Posted by MADDOG on Feb. 17 2004,5:35 pm
The DNR recommended to the county that they turn off the areators in Albert Lea Lake today. Even the watershed board wanted that. They need to get as comlete of a winter kill as possible before deciding what next to do such as poisoning the lake or adding more areators. The DNR has told the county they will agressively restock the lake in the spring, but the city/county needs to decide what needs to be done so this hopefully doesn't happen again. I believe they said with 2,000,000 walleye fingerlings.
Posted by minnow on Feb. 17 2004,6:20 pm
Grilled fillets are aweful.... Use a little clean oil in a thick non-stick pan and don't forget the Kraft tarter sauce!I've been living on Paul Newman sauce lately...mmmm...It's about half Hy-Vee's price at Wallices World! Hehe...Thanks Walmart!
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 17 2004,6:35 pm
Thanks to Commissioner Belshan that company that harvests the carp out of Albert Lea lake during the summer showed up this morning with their gear and started collecting the carp. They'll be here taking the live fish and the dead ones until the 29th when the liberalized fishing rules end. I talked to commissioner Belshan last friday and relayed that suggestion to him from the smartest guy in the county(my dad) and commissioner Belshan jumped right on it and got everyone going last friday. And thanks to him we may all be able to enjoy the outdoors this summer without the smell of rotting carp.
That's exactly how local govt. should work and the rest of those jerks should learn from the example Belshan sets. He didn't have to make those calls, he could have just stood around at the dam looking like a slack jawed moron with the rest of them or worse he could have given us lip service about how St. Paul will save us from this happening again this session when we get funding for the magic water producing dam.(I wonder why we didn't try to get that magic dam funded last session before every fish in our lake was dead.)
Also the DNR has recommended that we shut off the aerators and try to kill the whole lake and they will stock aggressively in the spring with something like 6-7 million walleye fingerlings (about 2500 per acre?) and some catchable fish. It seems the DNR dropped the ball on this and they know it, there was an emergency request for an aerator submitted some time last year and it's just sitting on someones desk right now. So they know this is a disaster that they could have avoided.
Don Sorenson was also at the county commisioner meeting today asking them to consider a really good idea. He suggested taking the dams out of Fountain lake and Albert Lea lake and just flushing the entire watershed down to Iowa(just like one big toilet)
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Feb. 17 2004,6:36 pm
And here I always thought fish were food, not friends! lol!Iowegian, where do you think all of that sewage went after it flowed down stream? Straight down the Shellrock into Iowa.
Posted by Madd Max on Feb. 17 2004,8:02 pm
| Quote (Liberal @ Feb. 17 2004,6:35:pm) |
| Thanks to Commissioner Belshan that company that harvests the carp out of Albert Lea lake during the summer showed up this morning with their gear and started collecting the carp. I St. Paul will save us from this happening again this session when we get funding for the magic water producing dam.(I wonder why we didn't try to get that magic dam funded last session before every fish in our lake was dead.) |
I for one would like to say
Good Job Dan B
Does anyone know the Bill number in the House or Senate for the bill for a new dam to be built , If so I for one would like to track that Bill. If there is a bill? If their isn't then I would say that anyone that cares and wants a new dam put in had better write and e-mail Rep. Dan Dorman and Sen. Dan Sparks telling them that we as voters in their district want a bill brought to the House and Senate floor for funding to replace the Dam on Albert Lea Lake. If they won't write a bill then they will have to answer to us when up for re-election
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 17 2004,8:35 pm
Dan and Dan for the Dam I agree that Dan Belshan gets kudos for his quick action getting the commercial guys out here.
Posted by danbelshan on Feb. 17 2004,9:57 pm
I don't deserve the credit for the commercial carp conveyor. After hearing Liberal's dad's idea I called Environmental Services and left the message for Andy Henschel, who lined up the people who are getting rid of the fish. Andy's our county water guy, and has really been on top of this whole fishy situation. He's from Emmons--small town guy with a great work ethic--if you see him give him a pat on the back!He'll be on KATE radio tomorrow (1pm?) with Randy Tuchtenhagen--the Randy and Andy Show--talking about the situation.
Aeration fact and spin:
SPIN: There isn't enough oxygen in the water and the fish would have died anyway.
FACT: The DNR has told us the water has good oxygen near the aerators.
SPIN: The county board didn't put enough aerators in.
FACT: The Sportsmens Club and Lake Committee originally asked for 5 aerators for the Lake, and the county board supported that. The DNR only allowed the county to put in 2.
We wanted to put one in the deep channel where the fish congregate. The DNR said no. So one aerator was in about 5 feet of water which turned into 3 feet of ice and 2 of water.
SPIN: Don't blame the DNR, we can't point fingers, we must get along.
FACT: Somebody dropped the ball, and it wasn't the locals.
Opinions: Liberal's dad had a good idea, and when relayed to county staff they did a good job.
My dad used to say, "Too much education without real world experience makes people lose their common sense."
After this week I agree--too much schooling causes problems for fish and the DNR.
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Feb. 17 2004,11:10 pm
Too much schooling also pisses off local fisherman for the next few years.Even though the DNR says it is going to 'aggressively' restock the lake in the spring, you can't think that they can make up for all of the fish that either have been taken or died. Fishing isn't going to be the same in this lake for years.
Not having good local fishing sucks, road trip time!
On the other hand, we are getting rid of a boat load of carp. At least this isn't a total loss.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 17 2004,11:17 pm
Nice to get rid of the loads of carp, now let's try to get rid of the loads of crap around here too
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Feb. 17 2004,11:24 pm
LOL! 
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 18 2004,2:47 pm
I few years ago, I flew Bob Mehsikiomer, host of the TV show Simply Fishing, to film some fishing shows in Canada. While out in the boat, Bob told me about some of his projects. In addition to the TV show, he runs a lure manufacturing business, and like most outdoor personalities, endorses fishing products. He told me about a possible new project called 10,001--after Minnesota's 10,000 lakes plus one. The project consisted of creating a lake from scratch.I asked Bob "why one more lake?" He replied "Minnesota is famous for its lakes, and they have good fishing--but the problem is that they look terrible. Unlike salt water, or clear mountain lakes, even our Northern lakes are cloudy or tannin-stained" (the reason the indians called MN "the land of sky-blue waters"--the black water made a perfect mirror). People are reluctant to swim in the lakes, though the water quality is high, because it LOOKS bad". Mehsikomer proposed making a lake of about 1000 acres, with varying depths, reefs, and bottom structure, and strictly controlling water input and side runoff to maintain water clarity.
I asked what the commercial payoff would be for constructing a lake. He said "Put in pedestrian tubes in the bottom--like the Duluth aquarium or theme parks. "It would be a great tourist attraction. Second, every outboard motor manufacturer, every fishing lure manufacturer, every manufacturer of fishing line or fishing equipment would use the lake as a test site--and like NASCAR, every fisherman would want to see it for themselves. It would be a great tourist draw for the State--showcasing Minnesota's greatest attraction--water-- (and providing a showcase for Minnesota manufacturers). It would be good in the winter season as well--showing that there IS life under the snow-covered lakes (how many times have you explained to warm-weather friends that you can DRIVE on the ice?
Bob may have something there--and what better place to build it than on the major entrance to the State? The cost is cheap compared to $40,000,000 Courthouses and $40,000,000 dredging proposals--or even the Iron Range boondoggles like Iron World or Giants Ridge.
Proposals abound for Albert Lea Lake--drain it, raise it, new dam, turn it into hunting, dredge it. The point is, maybe it would be cheaper to start over!
(only somewhat tongue-in-cheek) Like fixing up an old house or old car, sometimes it is cheaper to start fresh!
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 18 2004,2:59 pm
Those are some great ideas. I hope people will start to listen. Starting fresh, or restoring, no more bandaids and money wasted.
Posted by minnow on Feb. 18 2004,4:46 pm
You're all insane. It's always some pie in the sky...spend, spend, spend, spend...and you'll get a return someday, somehow. Ya, right...don't spend good money chasing bad. It ain't never gonna happen Holmes.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 18 2004,5:00 pm
Minnow--the post was tongue-in-cheek--but it makes more sense than spending $40,000,000--for the Courthouse OR for dredging!
Posted by minnow fan on Feb. 18 2004,5:12 pm
Maybe put the new library underwater?
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 18 2004,5:54 pm
Who is the picture of? Hitler?
Posted by minnow fan on Feb. 18 2004,6:00 pm
| Quote (cwolff @ Feb. 18 2004,5:54:pm) |
| Who is the picture of? Hitler? |
Why yes, yes it is.
Actually, it is not, you see if I recall Hitler was only in power for about 14-15 years, this person has more then double that under his belt!
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 18 2004,6:08 pm
I thought it was the anti-christ? Underwater libraries are way cool. You have my support for the bake sale.
Posted by repdan on Feb. 19 2004,9:56 pm
I would guess that there were lots of people who wanted the Mertins to come in. I talked to the DNR in the morning about that and was told that serveral people had already suggested it. My guess is the Andy H. is the one that called them.Madd Max...read my post a page or 2 back on the dam. It's too bad we could not have tried this sooner but we have spent way to much time fighting with each other and not getting behind a plan.
The Watershed was not my first choice, but it's better than doing nothing for the next 30 years.
Posted by repdan on Feb. 19 2004,9:58 pm
Also, on Friday I spoke with the DNR Deputy Comm. and suggested since they did not give us the permit, if the carp were not harvested it seemed to me they should help with the expense of removing them.
Posted by Cletus on Feb. 20 2004,7:25 am
It looks like Belshan wasn't the only one getting things done last week. I guess we should all be thanking rep. Dan Dorman for everything he did also. And for all the things he plans to do like getting money from the DNR for fish removal and getting money from the state for a new dam.It's great to see another person taking an interest in albert lea lake but it's really too bad that we couldnt get Repdans dam last year and not had all the dead fish. Maybe repdan can get the DNR to pay to clean it up though.
I hope Repdan keeps us posted on the progress of the funding for his new dam.
Good Job Dan!
Posted by repdan on Feb. 20 2004,8:51 am
Cletus,I will keep you posted, it has been a long process but there are lots of lake projects trying for funding, in past years we have had to much fighting in the community we were dead in the water so to speak in St. Paul. There were, and to some point still are some people who make good the enemy of perfect...ie either my way or no way....since there are so many projects the ones with conflict get kicked out first.
Posted by Madd Max on Feb. 20 2004,11:20 am
Keep up the good work repdan Maybe with the winter kill now the citizens here will wake up and start to get on the same page for the betterment of the lake and the quality of life here.
Posted by Navin on Feb. 20 2004,2:27 pm
In reading what Repdan has posted I'm thinking that I must have missed something on the news. Because Repdan sounds like he's pursued funding for lake projects different times in the past and that the projects have all been kicked out right away because of community conflicts and I don't recall ever hearing about them in the Tribune, but that's not surprising.Repdan, can you give us a rundown of lake project funding you've pursued in St. Paul and stuff you plan to pursue? The Tribune hasn't always been the most reliable news source and besides if we get the info right from the source then we know it can't be wrong.
Posted by The Monkey on Feb. 20 2004,2:51 pm
I just heard on on Power 96 that Ron Hunter will have LT. Brian Kuphal Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 20 2004,5:54 pm
Will he sing "Fishheads, Fishheads, rolly polly fish heads, fish heads fishheads eat um up, yum?"
Posted by repdan on Feb. 20 2004,6:21 pm
Navin,I was elected in 1998. Since then, in fact for about 10 years before, there has been no plan to put forward. With out a plan there is nothing to pursue. It has taken a long time to even get where we are today with a plan. The thing has been met to death. I have held at least two public meetings trying to bring the groups together.
I go back to a prior post. The Watershed was not my first choice but it is lots better than doing nothing. Read some of the posts here the rip on it. It's easy to be against something, it is a lot harder to push something.
Part of the problem is that some of the field staff of the DNR have a different vision for the Watershed then do most people. While Gov. Pawlenty and have don't always agree, the DNR is an area where we both think needs to reform. When they want to do something, they just do it, when they are against something, they will meet it to death.
I learned this over Lake Chapaue (sorry I can't spell). Because they could, they came in and pulled the dam without any notice. When I tried to talk to one of the staff members about the politics of that, she came back with a if the people would just stay out of our way......
That reminded me of an old Nixon quote of Politics would be a hell of a business if it wern't for all the damn people..........
Brad Arends described best how they should act. The community is the golfer and they are the caddy helping us making sure we play by the rules of the game, but they should not be the ones calling the shots. We need to follow the rules but if we are doing that they should help us make our goals.
Posted by Montyman on Feb. 20 2004,9:08 pm
Unfortunately, when the legislature gives rulemaking authority to departments (ie DNR, MPCA, HEALTH, DPS, etc...), the departments often seem to make things more difficult for all of us than probably was originally intended by the lawmakers. It's called job security and turf.There's always a way for those departments to 'enforce' their rules in such a way as to make problems for whomever they disagree with or make it easier for those that 'play' by their rules.
What do you think repdan?
Posted by guppie on Feb. 20 2004,11:50 pm
dan did nothing, dan did nothing...keep on digging, keep on digging...
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 21 2004,9:29 am
All this spinning is making me dizzy!| Quote |
I was elected in 1998. Since then, in fact for about 10 years before, there has been no plan to put forward. With out a plan there is nothing to pursue. It has taken a long time to even get where we are today with a plan. |
There have always been plans that's all we've ever done is made plans and never had any money to enact the plans. There was even a lake restoration plan way back in 1975 that fell through because of funding. There were at least two after that and the one that the watershed board is using now was just copied from the existing plan the county already had in place for years.
| Quote |
I will keep you posted, it has been a long process but there are lots of lake projects trying for funding, in past years we have had to much fighting in the community we were dead in the water so to speak in St. Paul. |
If you haven't tried to get any funding yet what were you talking about when you say "the fighting in the community has us dead in the water in St. Paul" and that "this has been a long process?"
| Quote |
since there are so many projects the ones with conflict get kicked out first. |
Once again if you haven't even tried for any money how could "the ones with conflict get kicked out first"?
| Quote |
The thing has been met to death. I have held at least two public meetings trying to bring the groups together. |
You've been in office for 5 years and had two meetings and you say it's been "met to death"? I guess that explains why t's taken almost 30 years to get to where we are today.
Nothing will motivate a politician like a problem in his own backyard and I'm glad you bought a house on Albert Lea lake last year, hopefully in the future you'll put funding lake restoration projects a little higher on your todo list.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 21 2004,11:48 am
Hey Liberal,I agree some of what he says is to say the least confusing, but from what I read he is at least trying to shake-up the status quo. They Hate his tape recorder, therefore I love it. I wonder what would happen if all new people were in there with Dan, would something get done finally?
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 21 2004,12:16 pm
You're confused as to which Dan is which.Repdan is State Representative Dan Dorman.
DanBelshan is County Commissioner Dan Belshan.
DanBelshan is the one with the tape recorder that posted a few page back about fact and spin about the lake. I agree with you about Belshan.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 21 2004,5:45 pm
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, I was, thanks for straightening me out.
Posted by repdan on Feb. 21 2004,10:30 pm
Liberal,I had to lol, any clue where our other house is......hint on a lake. To bad you have not been at either of the lake meetings, but that would have taken some effort.
Perhaps you have missed the whole lakes committe/soul battle.
I would also point out, that if we want the lakes cleaned up we better plan on paying most of the bill ourselves. Is there other money out there? Sure the we need to all be on the same page.
I don't remember seeing you at the local sales tax meeting either.
If you are going to clean house you better get started. The caucus are coming up the first Tuesday in March. I suggest you go to one. The Republican caucus is at the High School, not sure about the DFL and Independence. It's lots harder to step up to the plate then to only point out others "shortcomings"
Posted by repdan on Feb. 21 2004,10:34 pm
Guppie.....While I may not have done anything..but at least I don't hide behind my computer. But I guess Guppie is a good name for you.
Posted by repdan on Feb. 21 2004,10:38 pm
Liberal,Help me pick a plan....the Soul plan, the Lakes Committee plan, the County plan, one of the DNRS six plans. Which one should I have used?
Posted by Montyman on Feb. 21 2004,10:51 pm
Why don't you guys up there in St. Paul repeal some of the 'rules' and 'mandates' that we are all subject to, albeit sometimes unseen, in our everyday lives because of the State government.DNR is only one example of an agency that is just too powerful.
Posted by repdan on Feb. 21 2004,10:58 pm
Monty, thanks you are right. Sorry I did not respond to your first post. There is a growing number of reps and sens that think that rules should sunset after the next session after being written unless approved by the legislature. There is another use of rules by the way, I believe that legislation was passed knowing that the agency would set rules that would have never made it to the floor.
Posted by Montyman on Feb. 21 2004,11:23 pm
repdan:That last sentence of your 10:58 post makes sense in a way if your talking about rules that might, for example, not be politically popular (why, you guys could lose votes if you and you alone set the rules!).
But if a rule clearly goes beyond the original intent of a piece of legislation, it is time for some political a$$-kickin' by the legislature. All I'm saying is, make darn sure that some Commissioner or department head that can make a rule up is not abusing that power, because it is a huge and scary power. Use some common sense.
Aren't Commisssioners appointed by the Governor?
How is that getting things done using common sense?
Look who's running Mn/DOT for thge cripe's sake?
Posted by Madd Max on Feb. 22 2004,1:35 pm
The DFL caucus is at the Union Center, There will be a potluck from 5 to 7 P.M. with meeting starting at 7 P.M. Dan is right that the time is now to get involved. Since I do not get the paper can someone fill me in on when the meetings are for the watershed board (Dates, Times and place) so I can see if I can work it into my schedule to attend these meetings.
Posted by repdan on Feb. 22 2004,2:28 pm
Anyone know about the Independence party?
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 22 2004,3:34 pm
Now that Nader is going to run, (and (NOT under the Green party) where will the Green Party and whatever Nader is going to call himself caucus? In Nader's case, will he have anyone to caucus WITH?
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 22 2004,6:06 pm
Why is it that certain people think that we don't have a right to say anything about an issue or question the "powers that be" unless we are willing to get involved in that issue? | Quote |
I don't remember seeing you at the local sales tax meeting either |
You're right you haven't seen me at any sales tax meetings. But, if there was an anti-local sales tax meeting you'd see me there. I think any local option sales tax is wrong no matter what the reason. And I think they are especially damaging to the state and local govt. when you have one in a county that borders a state that's 1 1/2% lower already. I know people say 1/2 percent isn't much, but, it puts us at 2% disadvantage to Iowa. House Tax Committee chair, Rep. Ron Abrams said it best when he said,"What's best is tax policy that proceeds from an understanding that Minnesota is one state, not a confederation of competing locales. It has succeeded by aggregating its resources and doing things like building roads, providing education and caring for the poor in concert."
| Quote |
To bad you have not been at either of the lake meetings, but that would have taken some effort. |
I wanted to attend but I just couldn't keep up with the grueling schedule of the meetings.
| Quote |
I would also point out, that if we want the lakes cleaned up we better plan on paying most of the bill ourselves. Is there other money out there? |
Go back and read post from Nose for News it mentions a DNR program that helps fund 50% of dams.
I agree with you 100% that we need to pay for this ourselves (through property taxes). But part of the problem with that is we've always had these politicians from St Paul telling us that they are "seeking funding" for lake restoration. If you ask around town most people will tell you that they believe you and other state politicians are trying to get funding for lake restoration projects right now. There are even people that believe the federal govt. may pay for some of it. If we could get politicians to be honest with us about funding then maybe we could change this local attitude that someone else is going to come in here and pay to clean our watershed.
| Quote |
Help me pick a plan....the Soul plan, the Lakes Committee plan, the County plan, one of the DNRS six plans. Which one should I have used? |
Pick the plan that has the greatest possibility of getting us funding for smaller projects that all the plans agree on. Like slowing down the water coming in from Bancroft Creek and setting up silt traps. (If we could have gotten funding for just that one part of the 1975 plan then fountain lake might not be 6 ft deep today.)
Posted by repdan on Feb. 22 2004,9:30 pm
Liberal,You can say anything you want. Seems to me you are a little sensative when someone questions you. You can get involved or not get involved up to you but at least take the time to find out the whole story before commenting.
The DNR does have some programs, but had you been at the meeting at Riverland you would have heard the regional director say that until we are all on the same page we have little or no chance. There are many dams that are in the same shape. In fact, the programs that Local Units of Government can apply for require no action by the legislature after the program is funded. At this point, the Agency scores and ranks programs.
For example, I think Conger is going to get some WIF funding this year or next. The legislature funds the program and trys as much a possible not to let power politics play a part. I can take no more or less credit for this funding than can the other 200 legislators.
Like the Watershed, Local Option is not my first choice, in fact I will tell you that the focus on only one funding source has held us back. When I first met with a group of local people on this, I asked them what their plan B was...still no answer.
My first choice of plans? Lake Imporvement District. Like a Watershed but controled by the County. They could draw the lines and asses the tax. They could have had lakeshore owners pay a higher rate than others and left most of the county out all together.
Your comments on the Iowa sales tax are close, but remember that rate is only one part of the tax. We exclude much more and have a higher rate, they have a lower rate but a broader base. I have no idea which one is "higher".
Who is telling you that we are seeking funding. This is the first year that I think we are ready. I was not in office in 1975 so I don't know what happened since then.
Maybe I read your posts wrong, but you seem to be both unhappy that I have not done anything and upset that you feel someone has given you a false sense of doing something.
You are right about the meetings. Read my post about when the DNR does not want to do something, the meet you to death. At the risk of firing you up..there is a growing number of us evil folks in St. Paul trying to take back some control and thus the responsibity.
Abrams is right about taxes, however the cat is already out of the bag on this one. Before the LGA program there were local options all over, the state got rid of them and started the LGA program. Had we never allowed a local option Abrams point would be well taken. However, given that Mankato, Rocherster, MPLS, St Paul, Duluth, and many others have them it does not ring true.
I know of several people who would vote no on the tax but are unhappy because the State is picking winners and losers. It does not pass the smell test that it is good enough for Rochester and Mankato but not us.
Posted by repdan on Feb. 22 2004,9:33 pm
By the way, the answer to our other house was Fountain Lake. I started talking about the Lake Improvement District about the time we moved. I had one lady call me and say now that I am moving off the lake I want to jack up lakeshore property taxes. Then a guy came into my store and said now that I'm going to live on a lake I start caring...a guy can't win with some people....including you Liberal if you read your post on now that I live on the lake.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 23 2004,9:37 am
Repdan--Liberal is becoming more conservative as he gets older, as evidenced by his post| Quote |
| I agree with you 100% that we need to pay for this ourselves (through property taxes). But part of the problem with that is we've always had these politicians from St Paul telling us that they are "seeking funding" for lake restoration. |
If we had just "invested" (good grief, I'm talking like a liberal!)
in the dam, we could have just added it to our own property tax. If we had just done the dam or repairs at the local level, we wouldn't have to appeal to St. Paul for "permission" in the form of a local option sales tax.To paraphrase Will Rogers--"The magic of government is convincing the public that the OTHER guy will pay" (for OUR project). Liberal is right--This project is something that should have been a local project in the first place--the State and Feds should not be involved--holding out the prospect of "free" money. There isn't a compelling reason for State or Federal involvement--this project demonstrates the gross inefficiency of "letting the government do it."
Posted by repdan on Feb. 23 2004,10:55 am
Yup....there are some funds we can tap in to for part of it, but the vast majority of it will come from us.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 23 2004,11:22 am
Finally people are talking correctly, that would have been a much better investment then a new courthouse. Mower county moved into an old mall building,and we could have too. The dam and clean lakes really might attract business, at least bring in tourist dollars, a bigger administration building won't do anything except give the politicians here a palace to gloat about. I still don't see why they could not have moved into the school. Water over the dam now ;)
Posted by Madd Max on Feb. 23 2004,12:57 pm
Does anyone have an idea what the cost would be to replace the dam? Since the DNR conceders All Waters Public Waters are we not forced to work with the DNR in replacing the dam. Also since part of the lake is a game reserve and is a resting spot for migrating waterfowl does or doesn't the federal government have any say into what we do with the lake? Just a few questions I would like to hear answers for.
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 23 2004,2:34 pm
I would HOPE the DNR doesn't lay claim to "all public waters". Does that mean every pothole with a duck landing on it make it a Federal case? If so, that would make the DNR in the land of "10,000 lakes" the biggest bureaucracy in the State, and Federal control over every bit of water.I don't think that is what the framers of the Constitution meant when they said the Federal government had the power to regulate Interstate Commerce--duck flyways!
But then, activist courts have used even more suspect "logic" in asserting Federal power!
Posted by KODIAK on Feb. 23 2004,6:02 pm
This is the funniest damn thing I have seen on this site yet. I have seen people protest and cry out over many subjects here, but it took the fish kill to get the juices flowing. Good!
Posted by Montyman on Feb. 23 2004,8:47 pm
So jimhanson, don't you realize that the DNR IS the biggest bureaucracy in the State?They want control over everything wet, and have a lot of it already under their spell.
Years ago, they even tried to gain control of ALL of the drainage ditches in freeborn county, for example (public and private), but some engineers with common sense (they've passed on, darn it) were able to deter them.
The DNR can be a real MONSTER!
Posted by jimhanson on Feb. 24 2004,10:54 am
Montyman--you are so right. The DNR has less accountability than any State agency I can think of. I had a shrimp boat in Texas--and while I never personally had a run-in with the DNR, their powers were unlimited. Unlike the police, FBI, ATF, or any other agency, they could pull a vehicle over, make a "no-knock" raid, or enter your property on the mere SUSPICION that you had violated game laws.The DNR has broad, autocratic power. In the case of AL Lake, the application originally was for FIVE aerators--denied, no reason given. The application was resubmitted for TWO--no response--sitting on a desk somewhere?
As far as technical expertise in fish and game management, does ANYBODY have any confidence that the DNR USUALLY does the right thing?
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 24 2004,11:14 am
| Quote |
| Does anyone have an idea what the cost would be to replace the dam? Since the DNR conceders All Waters Public Waters are we not forced to work with the DNR in replacing the dam. Also since part of the lake is a game reserve and is a resting spot for migrating waterfowl does or doesn't the federal government have any say into what we do with the lake? Just a few questions I would like to hear answers for. |
Madmax, in 1987 at Heron Lake it cost around $380,000.00 to remodel/rebuild the state dam. The site has a 117 foot channel. We built a dam that does more damage then good.
As far as the management of the lake, lakes in Freeborn County such as Bear, Lower Twin, Geneva, and Upper Twin are designated as "Game Lakes," which requires the DNR to manage these lakes for their primary wildlife use and benefit, particularly for waterfowl and aquatic furbearers. Game lakes require management plans be drafted and approved, and almost always require that periodical drawdowns of lake levels be performed to restore vegetative habitat, usally performed at a minimum of once every 5-10 years. This can only be done with dams that can open and allow water levels to drop to more natural levels to provide for sediment consolidation and exposure to drying conditions. This will allow for seed germination and plant growth which provides a natural filtration system that filters nutrients, sediments, and pollutants, and provides for very important wildlife and fish habitat.
Designate Albert Lea lake as a game lake, and then DNR will more than likely have to remodel/rebuild the dam if it is just currently a fixed crested structure. Is is a fixed crested structure?
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 24 2004,12:40 pm
| Quote |
Discussion of the overpopulation of carp in Albert Lea Lake flowed into the city council meeting Monday as residents requested about $1,000 from the city budget. The money is not for the barrier, but rather to pay for an airline ticket, transportation, food and lodging for a representative from Smith-Root, Inc., an outdoor equipment company, to examine the bodies of water for the possibility of a barrier, which could cost between $300,000 to $600,000, according to Shellrock River Watershed District representative Don Sorensen. < Albert Lea Tribune article > |
Does anyone know why would we put in electric carp barriers that cost between $300K and $600K if there are still carp alive in Albert Lea lake ?
Posted by MADDOG on Feb. 24 2004,12:53 pm
cwulff | Quote |
| Designate Albert Lea lake as a game lake, and then DNR will more than likely have to remodel/rebuild the dam if it is just currently a fixed crested structure. Is is a fixed crested structure? |
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 24 2004,1:16 pm
Maddog, I totally agree! At Heron Lake, the DNR maintains a higher static water level, and they call it managing the lake. The DNR says they need the dam to be able to manage for waterfowl and furbears, since Heron Lake is designated a game lake. The DNR says they need higher water levels and more water surface areas for the fall migration of waterfowl. I say they are full of BS. Historically, Heron Lake use to attract over 700,000 canvasback ducks during the fall migration, this without a dam and with lower water levels. The lake use to be abundant with vegetation. But the ducks do not bother to stop any more where there is no vegetative food or invertebrates. Heron Lake is full of silt and all of the ecosystems have been disrupted to the point where now-a-days we call higher static water levels with pea soup colored water and no vegetation - MANAGEMENT!Today the water management people think that water quanity is more important than water quality. I favor water clarity over water depth any day! People need to understand that the quality of your surface water has a direct correlation with the quality of your ground water!
Posted by danbelshan on Feb. 24 2004,2:23 pm
I found it quite interesting that the Shellrock River watershed board would ask the County Board to pay a salesman to come to town to show us what their product can do.Is this the same watershed board that levied $250,000.00 for adm in 2004.($125,000.00 comes in to their coffers June 04 the other $125,000.00 in Nov 04 from property taxes in their Watershed)?
Is this the same watershed board that levied $60,000.00 (special startup levy)?
Is this the same watershed board that borrowed $45,000.00 of the $60,000.00 special startup levy from the county to get going?
Is this the same watershed board that borrowed $50,000.00 in Jan 2004 from the county for two years at 2.5% interest because they said they were short of funds?
Is this the same watershed board that now wants another $1,000.00 from the county for a "consultant" tell them to buy a product made by his company?
Does this mean the whole county will be asked to contribute to the cost ($300,000.00 to $600,000.00 )for improvements in their specific watershed district on a specific lake?
Fact: The other county watershed Turtle Creek is self supporting. Paying for improvements within its own watershed. Taking praise and heat when desisions are made.
Holding public hearings and following state statute in those improvement processes.
Turtle Creek Watershed doesn't come to Hollandale or Austin City Council or County Board begging for money and permission.
I must be mistaken. Surely the watershed board knows their authority and power to tax and spend.
Posted by ICU812 on Feb. 24 2004,2:33 pm
| Quote (Liberal @ Feb. 24 2004,12:40:pm) |
Does anyone know why would we put in electric carp barriers that cost between $300K and $600K if there are still carp alive in Albert Lea lake ? |
So the carp and watershed board will have as nice of a confinement system as the criminals and county have.
Doesnt make sense to me either. Only 1 way to get rid of all the carp out the lake at this point and that is to pull the plug and drain it.
Tax and spend, tax and spend, with no plan in site
Posted by The Monkey on Feb. 24 2004,3:59 pm
Why cant the dan opening be made lower to allow more water flow to go through and oxygenate the water as it moves into AL Lake? Also if there is a bright side to this, it is that the officials did respond quickly and the fish did not gather and reek to high heaven. The animals were able to be harvested and used. Oother bright side to the disaster is that AL Lake will be getting at least 5 million walleye fry this season. In the shallow lake these fry will row quickly and it will be great now that they dont have to compete for food with 300,000 pouds of carp. We do hae to ensure that the carp population is not allowed to grow to the levels that they were allowed to get to. There is no doubt that the lake is over populated with carp and some controlls do need to be put in place. I still believe that 300 to 600 thousand dollars is an huge undertaking and I do worry about the risk to humans and animals when electrical devices are put in water. Just what is the safety rating on those things?
Posted by minnow on Feb. 24 2004,4:22 pm
Nature lives where it can thrive. A dirty green, eutrophiceutrophic ---->Having waters rich in mineral and organic nutrients that promote a proliferation of plant life, especially algae, which reduces the dissolved oxygen content and often causes the extinction of other organisms. Used of a lake or pond.
lake cannot support large amounts of good, clean northern pike and walleye. No amount of money can change an apple into an orange.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 24 2004,6:27 pm
Keep shining the light in danbelshan. There is no where to hide from the truth. I think we should always pay salespeople to try to sell, it is just nice isn't it? I think we should pay $1000 for a Mary Kay rep to come to Albert Lea and show us how to make the lakes prettier too.
Posted by Madd Max on Feb. 24 2004,7:25 pm
Has anyone heard yet on what the DNR is going to do in regards to the aerator out by the freeway bridge? Are they going to shut it off or have they shut it off already? As of last Saturday the Game Warden made it sound like a decision had not been made but would be soon.
Posted by MADDOG on Feb. 25 2004,8:24 am
Max, I was under the impression that a decision was made to shut them off last Thusday. Does anyone know if this has or has not been done?
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 25 2004,8:57 am
When Andy H. was on KATE late last week he said they had shut them off and were hoping for a good kill. He also mentioned that the dissolved O2 levels east of big island were under 1ppm except for one test spot that was at 6ppm, the DNR thought that might be a natural spring feeding that spot. I wonder if there are other springs in the lake that might have kept fish alive?
Posted by Tiger on Feb. 25 2004,9:16 am
Does anyone know what they are going to do with the dead fish floating in the lake and channel. I walked down to the dam on Saturday and the fish that have built up under the main st. bridge is disgusting. Won't this cause a nasty stench come spring if the fish are not removed?
Posted by minnow fan on Feb. 25 2004,11:39 am
| Quote (Tiger @ Feb. 25 2004,9:16:am) |
| Won't this cause a nasty stench come spring if the fish are not removed? |
Yes, it probably will smell just like downtown Austin.
Posted by The Monkey on Feb. 25 2004,2:30 pm
Because the kill was a natural occurance, the DNR will not be involved in clean up operations. Had the kill come from a spill or some other reason than a natural kill DNR would help in the clean up. Most of the fish that have perished will have already been decomposed by the spring thaw. Predators will take care of some of those that wash up on AL Lake shores, however, I do hope the city/county have some clean up plan in place come Ice out or AL could very much smell like Minnows attitude toward Albert Lea and all that happens in Minnesota.
Posted by Waterdog on Feb. 26 2004,7:34 am
What is the plan for the lake? Why does the county need to spend $1000.00 for salesman to come up here to sell us an electronic carp barrier? It seems to me that if the company has a potential customer they should pay their own way up here. How can this barrier fit in with the lake reclamation plan when we don't even know what that plan will be yet? Are the barriers going to protect carp or their fry getting in from everything upstream- like the carp in lakes of Fountain, Chapeau, Pickeral, School Section, and associated ditches and creeks?
I am sure enough carp survived to re-populate the lake faster than what it takes for those 5 million walleye fry to grow up to pre-winterkill sizes, and I think a plan needs to be in order before we start spending money on something that won't work anyway.
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 26 2004,5:35 pm
There was a electrical fish barrier put in the outlet channel of Heron Lake several miles from the lake. Yes, down stream from Heron Lake, so most of the carp recruitment was supposedly coming upstream into Heron Lake. The fish barrier shocks the fish as they swim up stream, and the stunned fish float down stream before they regain their motor skills and again try several times to swim up stream to only get shocked again before they finally turn around and go elsewhere. It has not prevented carp from entering Heron Lake, since there are lots of carp also coming into the lake from the two inlets.
Posted by Liberal on Feb. 26 2004,6:20 pm
| Quote |
The fish barrier shocks the fish as they swim up stream, and the stunned fish float down stream before they regain their motor skills and again try several times to swim up stream to only get shocked again before they finally turn around and go elsewhere. |
That has to be fun watching the stupid unconcious carp float back downstream. Maybe it's worth it afterall since we don't have much to do for excitement I'm guessing that unconcious fish floating down the Shell Rock will be a big draw. In fact I'll bet more people will go check that out than Gabes July Courthouse tour.
Since Sheriff Harig volunteered to be shocked with the new stun gun when they got them maybe we could get Gabe to swim through this when we get it. An unconcious Gabe floating down the Shell Rock with a bunch of carp would certainly draw a crowd.
Posted by cwolff on Feb. 26 2004,9:24 pm
Liberal, oh its great fun! PETAA (People Eating Tasty Amperage Animals) will flock to town for the first few months, but otherwise they will spend a lot of money in town. Just give their national office a call to attend the ribbon cutting ceremony to help pull the electical switch to power the electrical fish barrier.
Posted by MrTarzan on Feb. 26 2004,9:47 pm
I wonder what the electric bill will bill for a constant supply of voltage to a conductor like water? Do you think that maybe we will get soaked another way? Instead of a ribbon cutting ceremony we should make a dummy and call him Sensible Sam and cover him with dollars and burn him to ashes, just like all the rest of our dollars and common sense. $300,000 to $600,000 for a carp fence, when we don't know for sure that there are no carp in the lake now, (not to mention carp eggs)
Give me a break. Just pay me the lesser amount of $300,000, and I will make it my job to stand in the shell rock in hip waders with a mask and a cattle prod and keep them out myself. I'll pay one of our poor unemployed ex-packer workers to take care of the night shift, no better yet two of them (one to hold the flashlight), and at least I'll be creating jobs locally. I mean flying in a salesman and paying his expenses when they would have come for free, let's at least try to pretend we care what we do with taxpayer money