Topic: Ammo
started by: Self-Banished
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 13 2013,5:36 am
I'm sure a few of the posters here have been trying to buy ammo, just practice stuff. There is practically nothing on the shelves. Any opinions as to why??? 
Posted by grassman on Mar. 13 2013,5:45 am
It has now been determined that ammo kills people, not guns.Today I swung my front door wide open and placed my
shotgun right in the doorway. I set down 6 shells, and even placed
it in my wheelchair.
I then left it alone and went about my
business. While I was gone, the mailman delivered my mail, the
neighbor boy across the street mowed the yard, a girl walked her
dog down the street, and quite a few cars stopped at the stop
sign right in front of our house.
After about an hour, I checked on
the gun. It was still sitting there right where I had left it. It hadn't
rolled itself outside. It certainly hadn't killed anyone, even with the
numerous opportunities it had been presented to do so. In fact, it
hadn't even loaded itself.
Well you can imagine my surprise, with
all the media hype about how dangerous guns are and how they
kill people. Either the media is wrong, and it's the misuse of guns
by PEOPLE that kills people, or I'm in possession of the laziest
gun in the world.
Alright, well I'm off to check on my spoons. I
hear they're making people fat.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 13 2013,5:48 am
^ I'm sure Rosie would be grateful.
Posted by amyzone on Mar. 13 2013,6:46 am
Self Banished you are at least 6 months behind. Ammo is at a new low. It's because of a little thing called supply and demand. Apparently Mr. Obama has decided that all governmental departments are to buy ammunition, like the IRS and DHS as well as many many others. They are stockpiling ammo like crazy so the masses can't. Here is one theory on what is going on...
< http://www.wnd.com/2013/02/why-is-government-stockpiling-guns-ammo/ >
Should have gone to the Wells Gun Show. You could have stocked up on some there, depending on what you were looking for of course.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 13 2013,7:52 am
(amyzone @ Mar. 13 2013,6:46 am)
QUOTE
Self Banished you are at least 6 months behind. Ammo is at a new low. It's because of a little thing called supply and demand. Apparently Mr. Obama has decided that all governmental departments are to buy ammunition, like the IRS and DHS as well as many many others. They are stockpiling ammo like crazy so the masses can't.
Here is one theory on what is going on...
< http://www.wnd.com/2013/02/why-is-government-stockpiling-guns-ammo/ >
"I think it’s worth recalling here that just over a year ago both houses of Congress unwisely passed the defense reauthorization bill that killed the concept of habeas corpus – legislation that authorized the president to use the U.S. military to arrest and indefinitely detain American citizens without charge or trial.
That legislation would empower a lame-duck Obama to use all of the power of the federal government – constitutional and unconstitutional – to target his political enemies."
Here is one theory on what is going on...
< http://www.wnd.com/2013/02/why-is-government-stockpiling-guns-ammo/ >
"I think it’s worth recalling here that just over a year ago both houses of Congress unwisely passed the defense reauthorization bill that killed the concept of habeas corpus – legislation that authorized the president to use the U.S. military to arrest and indefinitely detain American citizens without charge or trial.
That legislation would empower a lame-duck Obama to use all of the power of the federal government – constitutional and unconstitutional – to target his political enemies."
Wow. Not the Hope and Change we were thinking of, is it?
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 13 2013,8:50 am
Yes Amy, the question may be 6 months behind but I'm not.One of the oddities I noticed is .22 ammo on the shelves is as rare as Libs with valid opinions. Why .22 ammo?
Posted by Grinning_Dragon on Mar. 13 2013,9:05 am
Since .22 ammo is cheap to begin with, most people are buying that in large amounts to target practice with.I have been considering buying an .17HMR rifle, the ammo is cheap and plentiful down here.
The other issue is, why are ammo companies fulfilling orders to the govt when they can make way more money selling to the people, then what ever is left over the govt can buy.
If I was an ammo company I would fill orders to the masses before I would fill orders to DHS, FBI, etc.. The people need ammo more so than the govt.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 13 2013,9:32 am
^ Tell that to Federal Cartridge. 
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 13 2013,11:21 am
There are companies realizing the government snatch and doing something about it. They have been on a four year buying spree. This is the same government that is trying its damnest to impost gun control, all while buying up virtually every gun and box of ammo produced. My hopes are the ammunition companies will follow suit.
< Join the Fight >
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 13 2013,11:24 am
^ I've seen the list and it grows more impressive everyday but we need some of the big boys to play this game too. Glock, Sig, S&W etc would get some attention quick.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 13 2013,12:58 pm
These companies listed are only refusing to sell to the state and local municipalities. They need to go the next mile-the federalis.QUOTE
I've seen the list and it grows more impressive everyday but we need some of the big boys to play this game too. Glock, Sig, S&W etc would get some attention quick.
Send them a petition letter:
QUOTE
To:
Glock, Inc.
SIG SAUER, Inc.
Smith & Wesson
Springfield Armory
We are in the midst of an increasing number of negative impacts on our 2nd Amendment Rights.
As you are aware, the political landscape dealing with gun control has caused outrage across the nation. States such as NY have already passed very restrictive legislation that takes many rights away from law abiding citizens such as myself.
In the recent weeks, many firearms and ammunition manufacturers have come forward and made public statements that they will no longer be selling or shipping their firearms and accessories to any Goverment, Law Enforcement or First Responders that are located in the states that have passed these new, very restrictive gun laws. Their stance on these laws is simple; if the citizens of that state or area cannot legally own certain firearms and accessories, then the Government, Law Enforcement and First Responders should not have access to them either, under the new legislation. These companies include: Olympic Arms, Inc., York Arms, Cheaper Than Dirt, Templar Custom, LaRue Tactical, MidwayUSA, as well as many others.
This list is sure to grow over the coming weeks, and I encourage you to follow their lead and take a stand with us to fight for the rights of every single law-abiding citizen of the United States of America.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope that you will join our fight and stand beside us.
Sincerely,
(your name)
Glock, Inc.
SIG SAUER, Inc.
Smith & Wesson
Springfield Armory
We are in the midst of an increasing number of negative impacts on our 2nd Amendment Rights.
As you are aware, the political landscape dealing with gun control has caused outrage across the nation. States such as NY have already passed very restrictive legislation that takes many rights away from law abiding citizens such as myself.
In the recent weeks, many firearms and ammunition manufacturers have come forward and made public statements that they will no longer be selling or shipping their firearms and accessories to any Goverment, Law Enforcement or First Responders that are located in the states that have passed these new, very restrictive gun laws. Their stance on these laws is simple; if the citizens of that state or area cannot legally own certain firearms and accessories, then the Government, Law Enforcement and First Responders should not have access to them either, under the new legislation. These companies include: Olympic Arms, Inc., York Arms, Cheaper Than Dirt, Templar Custom, LaRue Tactical, MidwayUSA, as well as many others.
This list is sure to grow over the coming weeks, and I encourage you to follow their lead and take a stand with us to fight for the rights of every single law-abiding citizen of the United States of America.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope that you will join our fight and stand beside us.
Sincerely,
(your name)
U.S. Headquarters
SIG SAUER, Inc.
18 Industrial Drive
Exeter, NH 03833
Smith & Wesson
2100 Roosevelt Avenue
Springfield, MA 01104
Springfield Armory
420 West Main St.
Geneseo, Il. 61254
GLOCK, Inc.
6000 Highlands Parkway
Smyrna, GA 30082
Posted by Common Citizen on Mar. 13 2013,8:41 pm
(Grinning_Dragon @ Mar. 13 2013,9:05 am)
QUOTE
The other issue is, why are ammo companies fulfilling orders to the govt when they can make way more money selling to the people, then what ever is left over the govt can buy.
How can ammo companies make more money selling to the public instead of the government. Have you seen what the feds are willing to pay for a toilet seat?
Posted by Grinning_Dragon on Mar. 13 2013,9:06 pm
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 13 2013,8:41 pm)
QUOTE
(Grinning_Dragon @ Mar. 13 2013,9:05 am)
QUOTE
The other issue is, why are ammo companies fulfilling orders to the govt when they can make way more money selling to the people, then what ever is left over the govt can buy.
How can ammo companies make more money selling to the public instead of the government. Have you seen what the feds are willing to pay for a toilet seat?
That is toilet seats.
People use ammo more than the average moron govt agency.
I guess the only entity that uses the most would be the military.
I have been trying to find a chart I had seen years ago that showed ammo bought and used by groups, it showed the average joe, the military, FBI, etc. the only draw back of the chart was that it included all calibers and was not broken down, I just remember seeing the average citizen wasn't too far behind the military in ammo usage and the fed gov was way down on the list.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 13 2013,10:20 pm
At what point do the Obamunists chime in and call anyone questioning this kooks?
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 14 2013,6:22 am
There was a guy on armslist.com yesterday asking for $80 for a brick of .22.
Posted by Common Citizen on Mar. 15 2013,9:37 am
(Botto 82 @ Mar. 13 2013,10:20 pm)
QUOTE
At what point do the Obamunists chime in and call anyone questioning this kooks?
Maybe they realize they were duped after voting for Obummer for a second term just like they were duped about Obamacare.
The libs here would buy oceanfront condos in the desert if Obama was peddling it.
Posted by irisheyes on Mar. 15 2013,11:03 am
Botto:QUOTE
At what point do the Obamunists chime in and call anyone questioning this kooks?
No reason to call anyone names for questioning this. It's when the chalk board comes out and the question turns into an assertion about birth certificates and FEMA camps that the kookery takes shape.
There was a South Park episode that covered this kind of thing pretty good. The Cartman character turns the school announcements into a Glenn Beck type show. He makes all kind of nutty assertions, and then defends himself saying he's only asking questions. "Is Wendy a whore, I don't know, I'm just asking questions. She killed all the Smurfs, or didn't she? I'm asking questions!!"
CC:
QUOTE
Have you seen what the feds are willing to pay for a toilet seat?
A toilet seat and a hammer don't cost that much, but when the media or pundits are done showing a snippet of accounting including spare parts, logistics, engineering guys, contractors, stuff they don't put on the books that gets added to everything else, you can watch it balloon. < CNET > < Snopes: $200 Hammer > < Straight Dope > < Wiki: Project on Government Oversight >
^We could make cuts in all those things that add up to those costs, but than those same pundits would claim the libs "gutted the military" and aren't supporting the troops.
QUOTE
Maybe they realize they were duped after voting for Obummer for a second term just like they were duped about Obamacare.
Nope, we just didn't want to have Gordon Gekko running the country and his sidekick ending Medicare. I mean, do you trust a guy that thinks Wall Street tycoons and corporations should pay less taxes than factory workers and teachers? I don't.
As for Obamacare, there's been a mandate in elections and polls asking for reform for decades. Conservatives decided they didn't care, the status quo was better for them. Although what would be best for some is the status quo with more limitations on lawsuits.
Can't be suing the rich for silly things like sponges left by surgeons and such! Damn victims always seeking indemnity.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 15 2013,12:17 pm
Thomas Drake speaking about the terrifying direction the government has been heading:< http://www.c-span.org/ >
NSA Whistleblower Discusses Intelligence Community
Maybe someone can post the video when it comes on youtube.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 15 2013,12:39 pm
I challenge anyone here to show how any of this moves us closer to living better. I always assumed that we, as a nation, would move towards policy and governance that took us further away from the horrors of what we did in the past, like condoning slavery, or forced relocation and mistreatment of native Americans, or even the interment of Japanese Americans in the Second World War. Given our current course, I can only imagine a dystopian future. If freedom is to ultimately prevail, we have to do a lot more than we're doing now.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 15 2013,1:15 pm
Botto, I'd have to say we are in a lot of trouble if people don't start paying attention to what has been happening, and don't start realizing the implications. Things are not going to magically get better. I can't imagine what things will be like for our children and grandchildren. That Thomas Drake speech was short but very clear on how drastically things have changed in just the last ten years.
People need to start thinking.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 15 2013,1:32 pm
We now live in the era of the Convenient Event. 9/11 was a convenient event, insofar as enacting Draconian surveillance laws, not to mention an excuse to invade a country that had nothing to do with it. It was amazing how quickly the Patriot Act was thrown together shortly thereafter.Likewise, Sandy Hook was a convenient event, the perfect storm to justify disarming the public.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 15 2013,1:50 pm
Think of how the media reported on the wiretapping of phones, and how upset people were about it. - Look at how that's grown, to where the government can snoop on all communications and doesn't even need a warrant. Our reaction? - "Eh, so what."Most people just want to ignore the fact that the government can arrest any American citizen at any time, strip that person of all rights, and not have to show proof of anything to anyone.
Killing American citizens overseas without having to show proof of anything to anyone.
Terrifying.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 15 2013,5:16 pm
The bigger question is, when does this all start to add up enough for the public, (which is always being duped by the media) to figure out what the final answer to this arms/ammo puzzle? An administration who is opposed to guns and the Constitution. A few hell-bent congress people looking for gun control or worse and a V.P. who thinks the answer to home security is a double barreled 12 gauge.While the gun owners and NRA members worry about gun control and gun bans, the government has been up until now, quietly buying up ammunition, reloading supplies and armored vehicles. Shutting down private gun dealers and stocking up on full automatic assault rifles just as Joe Public starts to realize that the Senate Judiciary Committee passes a ban on assault style semi auto guns on a party line 10-8 vote. Granted, it stands little chance of passing the full Senate, but is it nothing more than a distractor?
I'd like to hear why the DHS whose purpose is to keep our borders secure from terrorist and those who would come into this country illegally would need all this. They only operate within the border of the United States. What does DHS need with 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition, many of them hollow points which are banned by the Geneva Convention and not used by the military? For what use does DHS buy 1000's of < armored assault vehicles >? Where will the Office of Fatherland Security use thousands of < bullet resistant checkpoint booths >?
QUOTE
An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child of this great nation. We must take steps to ensure our domestic security and protect our homeland
Posted by Common Citizen on Mar. 16 2013,10:15 am
QUOTE
Nope, we just didn't want to have Gordon Gekko running the country and his sidekick ending Medicare. I mean, do you trust a guy that thinks Wall Street tycoons and corporations should pay less taxes than factory workers and teachers? I don't.
You're too much.
Do you even realize the impact those Wall Street "tycoons" and corporations have on this country? We wouldn't even be able to have this discussion if it weren't for corporations and investors.
I realize that wealthy people and corporations are the bogeymen in your life but at what point do you look around your own house and see how Corporate America has touched your life and how you yourself contributed to those evil corporations because of it.
QUOTE
As for Obamacare, there's been a mandate in elections and polls asking for reform for decades. Conservatives decided they didn't care, the status quo was better for them. Although what would be best for some is the status quo with more limitations on lawsuits.
Libs were just as culpable for not addressing the rising costs of health care. Obamacare was not a mandate. It was shoved down our throats in the dark of the night by the very same people that can't put a budget together.
Obamacare focuses on access rather than costs and quality. Notice I didn't say "ease of access". The government effectively took over 1/6th of our economy with the stroke of a pen in a socialist like fashion. And I will argue that that is not what the people had in mind when they wanted more affordable health care.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 16 2013,11:02 am
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 16 2013,10:15 am)
QUOTE
Do you even realize the impact those Wall Street "tycoons" and corporations have on this country? We wouldn't even be able to have this discussion if it weren't for corporations and investors.
This is the kind of brainwashed thinking that keeps us distracted from and mired in the mess we find ourselves in.
Why keep bailing these 'Too Big to Fail' types out? Surely, if capitalism was working as it should, left to its own devices, these corrupt bastards would fail, and new corporations and banks would take their place.
Trickle-down economics does not work. That has been proven time and time again. Too bad our diminishing middle class can't see that.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 16 2013,7:06 pm
^ and I ask this most sincerely, then what would you suggest?
Posted by Moparman on Mar. 16 2013,7:29 pm
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 16 2013,10:15 am)
QUOTE
You're too much.
Do you even realize the impact those Wall Street "tycoons" and corporations have on this country? We wouldn't even be able to have this discussion if it weren't for corporations and investors.
I realize that wealthy people and corporations are the bogeymen in your life but at what point do you look around your own house and see how Corporate America has touched your life and how you yourself contributed to those evil corporations because of it.
Do you even realize the impact those Wall Street "tycoons" and corporations have on this country? We wouldn't even be able to have this discussion if it weren't for corporations and investors.
I realize that wealthy people and corporations are the bogeymen in your life but at what point do you look around your own house and see how Corporate America has touched your life and how you yourself contributed to those evil corporations because of it.
Blah, blah, blah... The CEO and invester impact on this country is nothing compared to the impact of working/middle class. Open your eyes and realize that when CEO's and a few fat cat investors are making all the money the country is in the crapper, as compared to when the working/middle class segment is prosperous so is the country.
And your right corporate America does touch everyone's lives, unfortunately that touch is getting more and more negative everyday.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 16 2013,7:31 pm
^ they're the ones the write my "paycheck"
Posted by grassman on Mar. 17 2013,7:54 am
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 16 2013,7:31 pm)
QUOTE
^ they're the ones the write my "paycheck"
And you dance on their lap.
WASHINGTON — The Chamber of Commerce’s lead immigration negotiator said Friday he’s hoping for a deal soon with the AFL-CIO on a new temporary worker program, but the sides are still apart on important details.
The issue has emerged as perhaps the toughest obstacle to completion of comprehensive immigration legislation taking shape on Capitol Hill. Senators working on the bill gave the Chamber and the AFL-CIO the job of helping negotiate an agreement on the temporary worker issue.
Randy Johnson, the chamber’s senior vice president for labor, immigration and employee benefits, told reporters at a briefing that points of contention include wages and the overall number of visas in the new program. He said the chamber sought 400,000 new visas for temporary workers while the AFL-CIO’s opening number was much lower, in the low five figures.
Johnson said the chamber and AFL-CIO are still talking, but much of the negotiating work has now been kicked up to Sens. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., and others in the bipartisan Gang of Eight, which is trying to complete a bill in time to release it once Congress returns from a two-week recess in early April. In addition to the temporary worker issue, the bill would aim to secure the border, strengthen workplace enforcement and provide an eventual path to citizenship for the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants in the U.S.
“Having been through this I wouldn’t say it’s taking longer than expected, but it’s been difficult,” Johnson said of talks with labor. “The next week-and-a-half will tell the tale.”
Andrea Zuniga DiBitetto, legislative representative for the AFL-CIO, said the labor group remains “absolutely committed, we are committed to working on comprehensive immigration reform, committed to citizenship and committed to honoring our agreement to come to agreement with the chamber.”
The question of temporary workers has traditionally produced a stark divide between business and labor, with business seeking a large, low-cost supply of workers, and labor opposed to any guest-worker program that could threaten American laborers and produce questionable working conditions.
The issue contributed to the failure of the last serious attempt at immigration reform in 2007, and Schumer and Graham sought to head off such an outcome this time around by asking chamber President Tom Donohue and AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka to work together.
The talks have progressed in fits and starts. Last month the two sides agreed on broad principles, which was more progress than in the past but no guarantee of a final deal. Johnson said he’d hoped to be able to announce a deal Friday, but the groups couldn’t get there.
Current programs for temporary workers in the U.S. are woefully inadequate to meet demand, business leaders say. There is a small visa program for seasonal, short-term, low-skilled workers but it only offers 66,000 visas a year. Meanwhile there are numerous industries — hotels, construction and nursing homes among them — that operate year-round and have labor shortages but no good way to sign on foreign workers. These industries and others end up employing large numbers of illegal workers.
The new visa program the chamber and AFL-CIO envision would fill that void. Separately, Senate negotiators are working on programs for high-tech and agricultural workers.
Johnson said workers coming in on the new lower-skilled visa program would not be tied to one employer, as short-term-worker visa holders now are, but would be able to move from one job to another. That’s seen as an important detail for the workability of such a program. The cap on the number of visas would also fluctuate according to demand.
Other unresolved details in the business-labor negotiations include the legal status of the workers coming in on the new visas. The AFL-CIO says all the workers should be able to petition for permanent resident visas that would allow them eventual citizenship, but the chamber says not all of the workers may be eligible for permanent residency.
The chamber and AFL also have agreed to create a new federal bureau to inform Congress and the public about labor supply issues, but the role of that entity remains unclear. The AFL-CIO had pushed for a commission with authority to determine labor market needs, while the chamber has argued that businesses themselves were best suited to make such determinations.
Separately Friday, there were signs of progress from a House bipartisan group that’s been meeting in secret to write an immigration bill. Most attention has focused on the Senate because it’s expected to act first, but Democrats in the House group met Thursday to brief House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, while the group’s Republicans met Friday with House Speaker John Boehner.
Through spokesmen, both leaders praised the group’s efforts.
The House group is now expected to unveil its legislation sometime in April, though details remain unclear, including the shape of any path to legal status or citizenship for illegal immigrants.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 17 2013,9:17 am
So the unions are going to approve an international chapter, how special for them. I'm sure they'll continue to provide that "quality" worker.
Posted by Moparman on Mar. 17 2013,8:30 pm
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 16 2013,7:31 pm)
QUOTE
^ they're the ones the write my "paycheck"
Well I earn my "paycheck". I get paid a very descent wage with benefits, and my company still makes a profit off of my labor. I make money, they make money which means we both have money to spend which in turn keeps the economy going. If one side stops making money....well you can see where that has gotten us.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 17 2013,10:25 pm
^ people that actually beleive in profit, there is hope. 
Posted by grassman on Mar. 18 2013,5:19 am
We all believe in profit. What has happened to this country though is that most believe in outrageous profit or nothing. 
Both Republicans and Democrats say concern about the middle class is at the heart of the ongoing, vituperative debate over taxes, entitlements and fiscal discipline, but the political spat never seems to honestly address the gaping and growing class divide in the United States. As politicians in Washington, D.C., slam each other over competing budget priorities, most avoid facing up to the disturbing question behind all the numbers: Is the American Dream temporarily stalled or permanently kaput?
Last Sunday, Parade magazine presented its annual survey “What People Earn,” an exercise guaranteed to appall and infuriate readers as they compare their own salaries with the likes of Brad Pitt and LeBron James. The story is pretty much the same every year; entertainers and athletes rake in tens of millions while secretaries and forest rangers scrape by on $35,000 to $40,000.
Sure, it seems a little insane that 19-year-old Justin Bieber makes $55 million – $6,261 an hour – while his high school music teacher probably struggles to pay the mortgage on his house, but the difference between what superstar entertainers earn and what undervalued educators are paid has always been ridiculous. The economics of Hollywood are abnormal. They may say something about our warped values, but they have never been representative of the entire economy – at least not until now.
It is more telling that Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz made close to $30 million last year while a typical 20-something barista at one of his coffee shops cannot find a better job, even with a college degree at the top of her resumÈ, and so lives at home with mom and dad. CEOs and bankers and hedge fund managers are the new superstars of the economy. In many industries, the few men at the top make a hundred times the income of the guys and gals on the factory floor or in the office cubicles. And this is not because the men and women with the lower salaries fail to work hard enough.
Economics columnist Jon Talton recently did a rundown of the facts about today’s American economy. Among his findings:
• Worker productivity has increased nearly 23 percent since 2000, but hourly wages rose a pitiful 0.5 percent in that period.
• Taking a longer view back to 1973, productivity is up by 80 percent between now and then, but pay is only up by 11 percent.
• People at the bottom of the wage scale are earning less now than similar workers in 1979.
• Employees in the middle of the wage scale are getting 6 percent more than in 1979, but all that increase happened in the 1990s.
• High earners, meanwhile, are making 37 percent more than back in the 1970s and the much-talked-about folks in the top 1 percent have enjoyed a 131 percent increase in earnings.
It is bad enough that we are going back to the income disparities of the 19th century’s Gilded Age, but Talton, like many other observers of the U.S. economy, notes that modern America is also becoming more stratified. We are moving toward the “Downton Abbey” society of the waning British Empire and away from the anyone-can-make-it-big America of the 1950s and ‘60s. The United Kingdom of 2013 has greater social mobility than the USA. In fact, it is now easier for the average German, Japanese or Dane to rise through the income ranks than it is for the average American. And, if you are undereducated or mired in poverty, you are almost certainly stuck where you are – and the same goes for your children.
This is not the country we like to think we are and it is not the country our political leaders are willing to admit they have helped create. Thirty years of catering to Wall Street, big business and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce has not boosted the American economy the way it was meant to do. Yes, the financial industry and giant corporations are awash in wealth, but they are not hiring more workers, they are not paying better pay, they are not enhancing benefits, they are not sharing the wealth. On the contrary, the typical American is working much harder for worse compensation. He or she is paying a bigger share of the health care bill and has no pension plan waiting at the end of the line.
This is an all-American crisis bigger than the deficit or the War on Terror, but no one seems ready to take it on.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 18 2013,5:32 am
(grassman @ Mar. 18 2013,5:19 am)
QUOTE
We all believe in profit. What has happened to this country though is that most believe in outrageous profit or nothing.
Not all believe in profit, some like a lot of our politicians believe in control.
Outrageous profit? What do you consider outrageous? This is subjective. If you think a profit margin is out of line? Then don't buy or work for or whatever the case
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 18 2013,12:21 pm
Our economy was likened to a parable about 10 hungry people and 10 candy bars. We give 9 of the candy bars to the first person. Then we divide the remaining candy bar into 10 pieces, and give 9 of those to the next person. We divide what's left among 6 more people, and don't give anything to the last two people, and tell them they need to get their share from the seven that are sharing that last candy bar.Life may be tough, Buttercup, but it is made even more so by a small elite who get to rewrite the rules to favor them. There's your fugging control. The super-rich control everything, but you're okay with that control. When the little people back control of a different kind, something along the lines of leveling the playing field, then you get all upset.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 18 2013,2:44 pm
AMMO-1.6 billion rounds bought by the DHS. 2717 armored vehicles bought and are converting them to urban vehicles to be used domestically. For what purpose? Are they going to pass out the ammo to all the agents for target practice? That would be close to 30,000 rounds per agent. Why does the DHS feel they need this much firepower? Who or what are they afraid of? An invasion?
Does anyone on the side of gun control want to tell us? Why are these starting to show up in Hometown, USA?
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 18 2013,4:01 pm
(Botto 82 @ Mar. 18 2013,12:21 pm)
QUOTE
Our economy was likened to a parable about 10 hungry people and 10 candy bars. We give 9 of the candy bars to the first person. Then we divide the remaining candy bar into 10 pieces, and give 9 of those to the next person. We divide what's left among 6 more people, and don't give anything to the last two people, and tell them they need to get their share from the seven that are sharing that last candy bar.
Life may be tough, Buttercup, but it is made even more so by a small elite who get to rewrite the rules to favor them. There's your fugging control. The super-rich control everything, but you're okay with that control. When the little people back control of a different kind, something along the lines of leveling the playing field, then you get all upset.
Life may be tough, Buttercup, but it is made even more so by a small elite who get to rewrite the rules to favor them. There's your fugging control. The super-rich control everything, but you're okay with that control. When the little people back control of a different kind, something along the lines of leveling the playing field, then you get all upset.
This is all very simple, if you don't like your lot in life then change it.
You're not required to go through life always being the sheep.
Posted by Moparman on Mar. 18 2013,8:17 pm
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 18 2013,5:32 am)
QUOTE
(grassman @ Mar. 18 2013,5:19 am)
QUOTE
We all believe in profit. What has happened to this country though is that most believe in outrageous profit or nothing.
Not all believe in profit, some like a lot of our politicians believe in control.
Outrageous profit? What do you consider outrageous? This is subjective. If you think a profit margin is out of line? Then don't buy or work for or whatever the case
It's pretty simple, outrageous profit includes shipping jobs and money out of the country, it includes compensating someone tens of millions for utterly failing at their job, it includes undercompensating other employees for their contributions. Nobody has a problem with a profit margin, it's the means used to achieve that profit that is becoming more and more outrageous.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 18 2013,11:32 pm
^ and so is our gov taxation policies.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 19 2013,10:39 am
(MADDOG @ Mar. 18 2013,2:44 pm)
QUOTE
AMMO-
Does anyone on the side of gun control want to tell us? Why are these starting to show up in Hometown, USA?
Does anyone on the side of gun control want to tell us? Why are these starting to show up in Hometown, USA?
Sorry, this video doesn't have the old embed code option.
< http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NHsGEy-vfLk >
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 19 2013,4:37 pm
And another one. They're going to have no choice but to give some sort of explanation soon MadDog. And the mainstream media better start coming up with explanations on why it wasn't informing people of the NDAA and these DHS purchases.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 19 2013,4:55 pm
< http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013...02.html >
< http://www.politifact.com/texas...ng-many >
< http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp >
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 19 2013,5:10 pm
(Liberal @ Mar. 19 2013,4:55 pm)
QUOTE
< http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013...02.html >
< http://www.politifact.com/texas...ng-many >
< http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp >
Yeah, the DHS bought over one and a half billion bullets to save by buying in bulk. haha, I just KNEW you'd come up with that weak explanation. Not many are dumb enough to believe that weakbutt excuse.
Save money, buy in bulk. Then "OMG we don't have any money, we have to put most of our border agents on furlough. The borders aren't going to be safe, we're in danger. We don't have any money, we have to release illegal immigrants from lock-up."
Here, you keep this lib
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 19 2013,6:35 pm
Your Snopes article does not even mention the ammo purchase by DHS. You're very good at calling people names and throwing out info that does nothing to debunk most of the things that are brought up in this forum. You're also very good at avoiding acknowledging that fact. You must think nobody else in the forum is paying attention?
QUOTE
"Liberal threw a link into the forum and called someone crazy. Even though the article had very little or nothing to do with the most valid points, he must be right!"
Posted by Moparman on Mar. 19 2013,6:47 pm
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 18 2013,11:32 pm)
QUOTE
^ and so is our gov taxation policies.
Yes they are! And you can thank your "heros" and "leaders" that send jobs overseas and keep wages stagnant thereby killing a good chunk of the tax base.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 19 2013,8:35 pm
(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 19 2013,5:10 pm)
QUOTE
haha, I just KNEW you'd come up with that weak explanation.
Nope, I'd say it's just < selective choices to disprove > you. As a few say around here, the internet can help you believe whatever < bias > you want.
Then you wait to see how many other mainstream media outlets pick up the same info.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 19 2013,9:55 pm
QUOTE
throwing out info that does nothing to debunk most of the things that are brought up in this forum.
It's not my job to debunk your conspiracy crap, but I do feel obligated to point out that us sane folk on this forum think you're a complete nut.
If so many are paying attention to this forum then why do so few agree with your crazy posts?
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 19 2013,10:09 pm
(Moparman @ Mar. 19 2013,6:47 pm)
QUOTE
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 18 2013,11:32 pm)
QUOTE
^ and so is our gov taxation policies.
Yes they are! And you can thank your "heros" and "leaders" that send jobs overseas and keep wages stagnant thereby killing a good chunk of the tax base.
So the "patient" is bleeding, so like the old physicians cure you bleed the patient some more?
This is a free country ('least it is for a little while longer) if a person or company decides it wants to move, be it for whatever reason, labor, logistics, economics(including taxes) it can.(unless you're Boeing and get completely hosed over by the NLRB)
Your "heroes"'are the ones driving business away, choking growth.
Then again, this would reduce to another union debate.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 19 2013,10:13 pm
(Liberal @ Mar. 19 2013,9:55 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
throwing out info that does nothing to debunk most of the things that are brought up in this forum.
It's not my job to debunk your conspiracy crap, but I do feel obligated to point out that us sane folk on this forum think you're a complete nut.
If so many are paying attention to this forum then why do so few agree with your crazy posts?
Because we don't want a "beat down" from the highly pious one?
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 19 2013,10:19 pm
(Liberal @ Mar. 19 2013,9:55 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
throwing out info that does nothing to debunk most of the things that are brought up in this forum.
It's not my job to debunk your conspiracy crap, but I do feel obligated to point out that us sane folk on this forum think you're a complete nut.
If so many are paying attention to this forum then why do so few agree with your crazy posts?
Really? Then how come you're the only "sane" person on this forum who says anything out in the open?
And it's a good thing it's not your job to debunk my conspiracy crap, because to be honest, you completely suck at it.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 19 2013,10:22 pm
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 19 2013,10:13 pm)
QUOTE
(Liberal @ Mar. 19 2013,9:55 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
throwing out info that does nothing to debunk most of the things that are brought up in this forum.
It's not my job to debunk your conspiracy crap, but I do feel obligated to point out that us sane folk on this forum think you're a complete nut.
If so many are paying attention to this forum then why do so few agree with your crazy posts?
Because we don't want a "beat down" from the highly pious one?
Must not question authority. Any problems with any event or government story? - Just shut up about it.
That's a shame.
Liberal's a good little American.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 19 2013,10:32 pm
How is it "conspiracy crap" when a sitting senator acknowledges it?
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 20 2013,12:45 am
Try to keep up. The conspiracy isn't about the ammo purchase, it's about the intended target of the ammo that is being purchased.Did a senator agree with crazy Rosalind, or did a senator just mention the ammo purchase?
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 20 2013,5:24 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 20 2013,12:45 am)
QUOTE
Try to keep up. The conspiracy isn't about the ammo purchase, it's about the intended target of the ammo that is being purchased.
Did a senator agree with crazy Rosalind, or did a senator just mention the ammo purchase?
Did a senator agree with crazy Rosalind, or did a senator just mention the ammo purchase?
Roz just has enough "big swingin'" to call what she sees.
So why is the SSA buying ammo in that quantity? Now I realize that every gov office has armed officers but why is the social security office bulking up that much?
Not only is the gov buying all this ammo they are also buying the firepower to go with it. Even with the buying frenzy in the civilian sector I'm seeing an influx of gov trade in guns, lots of Sig Sauers. I'm hearing numbers like 7K plus in firearm purchases for the DHS and SS.
Not only guns and ammo but assault vehicles too.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 20 2013,6:27 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 20 2013,12:45 am)
QUOTE
Try to keep up. The conspiracy isn't about the ammo purchase, it's about the intended target of the ammo that is being purchased.
Did a senator agree with crazy Rosalind, or did a senator just mention the ammo purchase?
Did a senator agree with crazy Rosalind, or did a senator just mention the ammo purchase?
All I've been saying is why are they loading up on so much ammo. Homeland Security: Protection of the Homeland. Why do they need that much ammo in America? Why not give an explanation? Their lack of explanation makes a lot of people wonder. That feeble reason you posted makes it even worse.
The government has been doing way too much Un-American things in the last decade or so.- Actually, I think the government has been that way for several decades, it's only because of the internet it's becoming more obvious and easy to find out.
Why am I, or anyone, who questions the fact that the Executive Branch now has the power to indefinitely detain any American citizen for whatever reason they see fit, strip the citizen of rights, and the government doesn't even have to show proof of anything to anyone, considered crazy?
Why is it crazy to ask why the mainstream national media has barely even mentioned something that big?
Why is it crazy to question why journalists and whistleblowers are being harassed and arrested in ever increasing numbers? Why is it crazy to ask why the mainstream national media has barely even mentioned something that big?
There's a lot more that the government has done in the last decade, but those two things alone should have people thinking, and at least talking about where this country is heading.
Everyone has the right to question the actions of our government. More and more people every day are realizing that this country is in a lot of trouble. Problems are not going to fix themselves. And if this government is "of the people, for the people and by the people" then the mainstream national news and government better start being a lot more honest and transparent with us.
You say I'm crazy. Well I say you are crazy for not even allowing honest decent discussions on any topic you deem unworthy. You are a bully, and you are only trying to keep people from trying to work together to try and figure out what is going on.
SB
QUOTE
Not only is the gov buying all this ammo they are also buying the firepower to go with it. Even with the buying frenzy in the civilian sector I'm seeing an influx of gov trade in guns, lots of Sig Sauers. I'm hearing numbers like 7K plus in firearm purchases for the DHS and SS.
Remington is another one. And now the government is redacting information on their purchases. Without Congress knowledge and consent.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 20 2013,8:31 am
Redacting info, do tell.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 20 2013,8:35 am
(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 20 2013,6:27 am)
QUOTE
Why am I, or anyone, who questions the fact that the Executive Branch now has the power to indefinitely detain any American citizen for whatever reason they see fit, strip the citizen of rights, and the government doesn't even have to show proof of anything to anyone, considered crazy?
Why is it crazy to ask why the mainstream national media has barely even mentioned something that big?
Why is it crazy to ask why the mainstream national media has barely even mentioned something that big?
Maybe he still wants to be a good little soldier and not question anything. Or maybe it's just to mind-shattering to admit that this administration is about as destructive to Constitutional ideals as the last one was.
I know another guy (my nickname for him is Libbie) who refuses to believe that Obama could ever do anything that any unbiased scholar of all things Washington would find alarming.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 20 2013,9:02 am
(Botto 82 @ Mar. 20 2013,8:35 am)
QUOTE
(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 20 2013,6:27 am)
QUOTE
Why am I, or anyone, who questions the fact that the Executive Branch now has the power to indefinitely detain any American citizen for whatever reason they see fit, strip the citizen of rights, and the government doesn't even have to show proof of anything to anyone, considered crazy?
Why is it crazy to ask why the mainstream national media has barely even mentioned something that big?
Why is it crazy to ask why the mainstream national media has barely even mentioned something that big?
Maybe he still wants to be a good little soldier and not question anything. Or maybe it's just to mind-shattering to admit that this administration is about as destructive to Constitutional ideals as the last one was.
I know another guy (my nickname for him is Libbie) who refuses to believe that Obama could ever do anything that any unbiased scholar of all things Washington would find alarming.
We're conditioned to think America is home of the free and that our government is the best and most honest on earth. The lying corrupt media is how things have been able to get as bad as they are, by perpetuating that myth. Your career and reputation is ruined if you step out of line. Harassed, smeared and arrested. Yay America. From government, to media, to citizens. - It's trickle-down BS.
SB
QUOTE
Redacting info, do tell.
Here's one listing. It's for a contract with Federal Cartridge Company. Contract amount: $4,643,040.00
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
Then there was a no bid contract with Heckler and Koch. Some are saying it's a contract worth $4.5 million.
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...cview=0 >
There's one with Remington for $1.5 million, I haven't been able to find a link on that one yet.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 20 2013,10:03 am
HK's ? Awfully fine firearm, had one at one time, very expensive. So Glocks, Sigs and S&W's are not good enough for our gov. Employees anymore?Federal just got done about a year ago revamping about 200k square feet in property they just aquired for a dist. ctr. This also freed up similar space for inceased production.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 20 2013,10:06 am
I'm amazed at how suddenly 9-11 and the Iraq war BSgarbage is finally getting traction. Media finally starting to give it front page attention instead of burying or ignoring it. Top people bailing on Bush and Cheney left and right. In the last year there are so many websites putting information together to help people piece together all the crap that was thrown at us in the last ten years. Here's one of those articles:
< http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013...ow.html >
Why shouldn't we question what the heck our government is up to? They've only gotten more powerful, secretive and more abusive to anyone who questions the poo they keep shoveling.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 20 2013,10:44 am
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 20 2013,10:03 am)
QUOTE
HK's ? Awfully fine firearm, had one at one time, very expensive. So Glocks, Sigs and S&W's are not good enough for our gov. Employees anymore?
Federal just got done about a year ago revamping about 200k square feet in property they just aquired for a dist. ctr. This also freed up similar space for inceased production.
Federal just got done about a year ago revamping about 200k square feet in property they just aquired for a dist. ctr. This also freed up similar space for inceased production.
I don't know anything whatsoever about guns. I got a BB gun from the Easter Bunny when I was in 6th grade. I would line up cans, make my own little targets, set up a big line of clothes pins on the clothes line to shoot at. A year or two later I was in the front yard setting up some cans and noticed a squirrel in the tree. The thought came into my head that I could be a hunter. Shot it, it fell out of the tree, I ran over all excited, saw it shivering all little and scared and hurt, and I started bawling hysterically. My father runs out of the house thinking I had shot my eye out or something, sees the squirrel and tells me I have to finish it. I begged him to take it to a vet, he said no. Told me again I had to finish it. I begged him to do it, he said no, that I had to do it myself. - Meanie. I don't know if I actually did, I was crying so hard I couldn't see anything, but I shot, handed him the gun and never touched it, or any other gun again.
I'm a wuss.
Yeah, so I know nothing about guns. Is it unusual for them to be using HK's?
Posted by pepi la pew on Mar. 20 2013,10:49 am
The way this GOV. is being run, HILTER could do just as good this IDIOT in the W/H reminds me of him.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 20 2013,10:57 am
(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 20 2013,10:44 am)
QUOTE
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 20 2013,10:03 am)
QUOTE
HK's ? Awfully fine firearm, had one at one time, very expensive. So Glocks, Sigs and S&W's are not good enough for our gov. Employees anymore?
Federal just got done about a year ago revamping about 200k square feet in property they just aquired for a dist. ctr. This also freed up similar space for inceased production.
Federal just got done about a year ago revamping about 200k square feet in property they just aquired for a dist. ctr. This also freed up similar space for inceased production.
I don't know anything whatsoever about guns. I got a BB gun from the Easter Bunny when I was in 6th grade. I would line up cans, make my own little targets, set up a big line of clothes pins on the clothes line to shoot at. A year or two later I was in the front yard setting up some cans and noticed a squirrel in the tree. The thought came into my head that I could be a hunter. Shot it, it fell out of the tree, I ran over all excited, saw it shivering all little and scared and hurt, and I started bawling hysterically. My father runs out of the house thinking I had shot my eye out or something, sees the squirrel and tells me I have to finish it. I begged him to take it to a vet, he said no. Told me again I had to finish it. I begged him to do it, he said no, that I had to do it myself. - Meanie. I don't know if I actually did, I was crying so hard I couldn't see anything, but I shot, handed him the gun and never touched it, or any other gun again.
I'm a wuss.
Yeah, so I know nothing about guns. Is it unusual for them to be using HK's?
No Roz, you're not a wuss, just human.
I think some of special forces over the years have used HK but as far as humdrum DHS? Social Security? Probably some nice lobbying from the importer or the kraits themselves.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 20 2013,12:06 pm
(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 19 2013,5:10 pm)
QUOTE
Yeah, the DHS bought over one and a half billion bullets to save by buying in bulk.
Yeah, they needed them for training. From the Huffington link
QUOTE
Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga . The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.
Wow, that's a lot of rounds for just one facility. Just when the military is being forced to cut back readiness training because of the sequester. Maybe they need all that ammo for the < zombie apocalypse >?
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 20 2013,12:08 pm
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 20 2013,10:57 am)
QUOTE
No Roz, you're not a wuss, just human.
Ditto.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 20 2013,2:41 pm
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 20 2013,10:57 am)
QUOTE
I think some of special forces over the years have used HK but as far as humdrum DHS? Social Security? Probably some nice lobbying from the importer or the kraits themselves.
When I had heard about the first big contract for hollow point bullets, I checked into them. I don't understand why that powerful and damaging ammo is necessary.
And some people say that cheaper regular bullets are used for training, others say the hollow points are used. So which is it.
QUOTE
Wow, that's a lot of rounds for just one facility. Just when the military is being forced to cut back readiness training because of the sequester.
I always just figured that when different agencies train, they provide their own ammunition. Maybe these big places supply them and different agencies purchase while there? When Albert Lea police held a couple day training camp for assault weapons awhile back I wonder if they supplied the ammo or if the other police that showed up for it brought their own. Maybe Dan Belshan can fill that in for us.
MADDOG, thanks for that zombie link! I can't wait to show my oldest daughter. I go next door to her house every Sunday and we watch The Walking Dead together. Big fans lol. We've been working on a small food/supply stash just in case anything is to happen. -We jokingly call it our "Zombie Apocalypse Stash".
After seeing how people suffered after Katrina and Sandy it's a good idea to have a stash to see your family through for awhile just in case some sort of disaster hits.
Did you see the story about Homeland Security doing a zombie apocalypse drill?- Everyone is a zombie fan nowadays!
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 20 2013,3:09 pm
(MADDOG @ Mar. 20 2013,12:06 pm)
QUOTE
Maybe they need all that ammo for the < zombie apocalypse >?
Just occurred to me. Maybe that's why the bullets are such powerful hollow-points!
Just kidding, just kidding. Calm down people.
Everyone knows regular plain ole bullets work quite well on zombies.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 20 2013,4:53 pm
(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 20 2013,2:41 pm)
QUOTE
Did you see the story about Homeland Security doing a zombie apocalypse drill?- Everyone is a zombie fan nowadays!
It goes a little farther than that. The UASI (Urban Area Security Intitiative) has received billions of dollars since the creation of the DHS. Now you know where the MRAPs are going. Anyway, Senator Dr. Tom Coburn released an oversight report, “Safety at Any Price: Assessing the Impact of Homeland Security Spending in U.S. Cities" requesting the Senate look into loose spending habits of the DHS.
On your zombie apocalypse drill:
QUOTE
One notable training-related event that was deemed an allowable expense by DHS was the HALO Counter-Terrorism Summit 2012. Held at the Paradise Point Resort & Spa on an island
outside San Diego, the 5-day summit was deemed an allowable expense by DHS, permitting first responders to use grant funds for the $1,000 entrance fee. Event organizers described the location for the training event as an island paradise: “the exotic beauty and lush grandeur of this unique island setting that creates a perfect backdrop for the HALO Counter-Terrorism Summit. This luxury resort features over 460 guestrooms, five pools, three fantastic restaurants overlooking the bay, a world-class spa and state-of-the-art fitness center. Paradise awaits…”
The marquee event over the summit, however, was its highly-promoted “zombie apocalypse” demonstration.
Strategic Operations, a tactical training firm, was hired to put on a “zombie-driven show” designed to simulate a real-life terrorism event. The firm performed two shows on
Halloween, which featured 40 actors dressed as zombies getting gunned down by a military tactical unit. Conference attendees were invited to watch the shows as part of their education in emergency response training. Barker explained
that, “the idea is to challenge authorities as they respond to extreme medical situations where people become crazed and violent, creating widespread fear and disorder.
According to the firm’s public relations manager, the exercise was brought about “utilizing Hollywood magic,” and setup in a “parking lot-sized movie set [with] state-of the-art structures, pyrotechnic battlefield effects, medical special effects, vehicles and blank-firing weapons.” Barker added, however, “"This is a very real exercise, this is not some type of big costume party.”
outside San Diego, the 5-day summit was deemed an allowable expense by DHS, permitting first responders to use grant funds for the $1,000 entrance fee. Event organizers described the location for the training event as an island paradise: “the exotic beauty and lush grandeur of this unique island setting that creates a perfect backdrop for the HALO Counter-Terrorism Summit. This luxury resort features over 460 guestrooms, five pools, three fantastic restaurants overlooking the bay, a world-class spa and state-of-the-art fitness center. Paradise awaits…”
The marquee event over the summit, however, was its highly-promoted “zombie apocalypse” demonstration.
Strategic Operations, a tactical training firm, was hired to put on a “zombie-driven show” designed to simulate a real-life terrorism event. The firm performed two shows on
Halloween, which featured 40 actors dressed as zombies getting gunned down by a military tactical unit. Conference attendees were invited to watch the shows as part of their education in emergency response training. Barker explained
that, “the idea is to challenge authorities as they respond to extreme medical situations where people become crazed and violent, creating widespread fear and disorder.
According to the firm’s public relations manager, the exercise was brought about “utilizing Hollywood magic,” and setup in a “parking lot-sized movie set [with] state-of the-art structures, pyrotechnic battlefield effects, medical special effects, vehicles and blank-firing weapons.” Barker added, however, “"This is a very real exercise, this is not some type of big costume party.”
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 20 2013,5:39 pm
Wow, I didn't know they went to that big of an extravagance for the drill. Some reports have said that a sponsor paid for the whole thing, other reports say that each officer paid a fee and that's how it was paid for, still other reports say taxpayer money was used. So which is it for real? Why is it so freakin hard to find out the truth about almost everything.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 20 2013,7:00 pm
< Safety at Any Price: Assessing the Impact of Homeland Security Spending in U.S. Cities > by Sen. Coburn. You'll find this item on pages 24-25
Posted by Moparman on Mar. 20 2013,7:02 pm
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 19 2013,10:09 pm)
QUOTE
(Moparman @ Mar. 19 2013,6:47 pm)
QUOTE
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 18 2013,11:32 pm)
QUOTE
^ and so is our gov taxation policies.
Yes they are! And you can thank your "heros" and "leaders" that send jobs overseas and keep wages stagnant thereby killing a good chunk of the tax base.
So the "patient" is bleeding, so like the old physicians cure you bleed the patient some more?
This is a free country ('least it is for a little while longer) if a person or company decides it wants to move, be it for whatever reason, labor, logistics, economics(including taxes) it can.(unless you're Boeing and get completely hosed over by the NLRB)
Your "heroes"'are the ones driving business away, choking growth.
Then again, this would reduce to another union debate.
Who said anything about unions?
Yes this is a free county. Companies can do whatever they want. But just because you can does not mean you should.
As with everything if just one small part grows out of control eventually you get an abomination that is not sustainable and eventually dies.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 20 2013,9:46 pm
(MADDOG @ Mar. 20 2013,7:00 pm)
QUOTE
< Safety at Any Price: Assessing the Impact of Homeland Security Spending in U.S. Cities > by Sen. Coburn. You'll find this item on pages 24-25
Thanks Maddog, can't wait to read it. grrr stupid computer isn't behaving again. I click your link and get a blank page. I went to Coburn's website and clicked his link and nothing happens. I put the title of his report in search, find the pdf link for it but get a blank page again. Does it say anything else about the cost of that training seminar? It had to cost more than $1,000 an officer. So I'm wondering who paid for the rest of that event.
And does anyone know if hollow point bullets are used in training and target practice, or are less expensive regular bullets usually used? I've been trying to find that out for a long time now. Different people give different answers, it'd be really nice to know which is true.
Posted by irisheyes on Mar. 21 2013,1:17 am
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 20 2013,10:03 am)
QUOTE
HK's ? Awfully fine firearm, had one at one time, very expensive. So Glocks, Sigs and S&W's are not good enough for our gov. Employees anymore?
You're assuming it's for pistols. I believe some agencies have used the MP5 (Heckler & Koch) for SWAT teams. Secret Service and FBI have used those weapons for a long time.
Pepi la pew
QUOTE
The way this GOV. is being run, HILTER could do just as good this IDIOT in the W/H reminds me of him.
Seriously? Pepi, the guy who always complains about the Jews, you're playing the Nazi-card on Obama? Oh, the irony.
Roz:
QUOTE
When I had heard about the first big contract for hollow point bullets, I checked into them. I don't understand why that powerful and damaging ammo is necessary.
Hollow points are not more powerful than FMJ (full metal jacket). When it comes to power it's just the chamber (9mm, .45, .38, etc.) and the grain (weight). JHP (jacketed hollow point) expands on impact though. So most people who carry use them.
QUOTE
And does anyone know if hollow point bullets are used in training and target practice, or are less expensive regular bullets usually used?
I don't know whether the agencies train with them or not, but often regular shooters do. It's not a bad idea. I've target practiced with hollow points and FMJ, and if one jams on you due to ammo it'd be best to learn on the range.
As for price, they make cheap hollow points just like they make cheap FMJ.
S.B.
QUOTE
Not only guns and ammo but assault vehicles too.
"Assault vehicles"? You guys are usually the ones who attack people for saying "assault" weapons. Years ago I was watching one of those cop shows where the DEA was busting a dealer in Texas. They borrowed one of those same trucks from out of state for the search warrant.
You ever seen local drug task force vehicles that the SWAT team will use? It's paramilitary type stuff: tactical guns, trucks that look like armored bank trucks, camo uniforms, etc. If McCain or Romney were doing the same thing they'd get a pat on the back from conservatives for "keeping us safe," just like Bush did.
For civil liberties, I'll give my quick plug for the < ACLU website >. You can join, donate, or subscribe. They question Obama just like they did Bush, defend Rush's right to privacy, and sue the DOJ for violating civil liberties regardless of whether the Administration is republican or democrat.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 21 2013,5:37 am
^ oh Irish, you assume too much yourself. All of the manufacturers I mentioned make an assault rifle(except Glock) and all are used by the US.H&K makes the G36 that is used by the US
The Sig SG 553 is used by the DEA
S&W makes a variant of the AR 15/M16
Glock does not make an assault rifle but they do have that nasty little G18 that is a fully auto pistol.
Thing is that H&K is an awfully expensive weapon and there are less costly weapons and here's one for Mopar, made in the US.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 21 2013,5:42 am
(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 20 2013,9:46 pm)
QUOTE
(MADDOG @ Mar. 20 2013,7:00 pm)
QUOTE
< Safety at Any Price: Assessing the Impact of Homeland Security Spending in U.S. Cities > by Sen. Coburn. You'll find this item on pages 24-25
Thanks Maddog, can't wait to read it. grrr stupid computer isn't behaving again. I click your link and get a blank page. I went to Coburn's website and clicked his link and nothing happens. I put the title of his report in search, find the pdf link for it but get a blank page again. Does it say anything else about the cost of that training seminar? It had to cost more than $1,000 an officer. So I'm wondering who paid for the rest of that event.
And does anyone know if hollow point bullets are used in training and target practice, or are less expensive regular bullets usually used? I've been trying to find that out for a long time now. Different people give different answers, it'd be really nice to know which is true.
Most likely Roz, they train with what they carry.
If I were to own any guns I would probably carry hollow points.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 21 2013,6:12 am
It just seems to me that regular bullets would stop a person just as well as hollow points, but do far less damage. - I don't care what anyone says, I am a wuss.And these hollow points DHS ordered from ATK don't sound like they'd be cheap.
Dang, I didn't know hollow points were so popular with people!
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 21 2013,7:36 am
^Seems like a terrible waste of a tasty looking melon. When defending yourself with a handgun there are two things to consider, shot placement (hitting center mass) and stopping power, hollow points will give you more stopping power.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 21 2013,9:04 am
IrishEyesQUOTE
You're assuming it's for pistols. I believe some agencies have used the MP5 (Heckler & Koch) for SWAT teams. Secret Service and FBI have used those weapons for a long time.
It's too bad they redacted info on that purchase. They redacted how many guns they've been using from that company and how many agents have been using them. Redacted the purchase amount but they assure us it will be a good and fair price.
Why isn't congress saying anything about the censoring of purchases that has been happening?
SB I agree, that's a tasty looking melon. Freakin huge too, I wonder what kind it is. Looks way bigger than the honeydews we get around here.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 21 2013,9:12 am
HAHA. DHS needs to invest in new sharpies. I just found out if you download their redacted file and zoom in on the amount per year you can see through their block. It's $900,000 per year. They did a better job on the number of firearms and agents though.- I can't see through those redactions.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 21 2013,9:27 am
(irisheyes @ Mar. 21 2013,1:17 am)
QUOTE
Hollow points are not more powerful than FMJ (full metal jacket). When it comes to power it's just the chamber (9mm, .45, .38, etc.) and the grain (weight). JHP (jacketed hollow point) expands on impact though. So most people who carry use them.
There can be some huge differences in SP, HP and FMJ rounds depending on their uses. In urban situations (home defense) SP and HP rounds will likely have less collateral damage than a FMJ. These rounds tend to mushroom or fragment upon impact rather than pass through an object. If you're defending yourself in your home, you are responsible for where that round goes even if it passes through an exterior wall into the house next door.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 21 2013,10:06 am
Some say hollow point bullets are prohibited by the Geneva Convention, others say they aren't. It's another thing that's proving very difficult to find the truth about. So I'm working on reading the Act myself. Just the little bit I've skimmed through so far has me wondering. Do the Geneva Convention rules not apply to the US? Because it seems we've violated a whole lot of the rules over in the middle east in the last decade.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 21 2013,10:29 am
^ this I would not doubt.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 21 2013,10:34 am
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 21 2013,10:29 am)
QUOTE
^ this I would not doubt.
It's disgusting SB. In just the little bit I have been looking into some of these things, I'm already to quit because it's very disturbing. I'd like to privately send you a couple links, if you don't mind, so you can see what our government knowingly did.
Posted by Common Citizen on Mar. 22 2013,6:35 am
(Botto 82 @ Mar. 16 2013,11:02 am)
QUOTE
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 16 2013,10:15 am)
QUOTE
Do you even realize the impact those Wall Street "tycoons" and corporations have on this country? We wouldn't even be able to have this discussion if it weren't for corporations and investors.
This is the kind of brainwashed thinking that keeps us distracted from and mired in the mess we find ourselves in.
Why keep bailing these 'Too Big to Fail' types out? Surely, if capitalism was working as it should, left to its own devices, these corrupt bastards would fail, and new corporations and banks would take their place.
Trickle-down economics does not work. That has been proven time and time again. Too bad our diminishing middle class can't see that.
That doesn't mean I believe in the "too big to fail" policy or that I am ignorant to the fact there are some corporations and ceo's that have less than honest intentions.
I would like to think trickle down economics does work. If I am making more money, I am more likely to eat out which supports the restaurant industry and its employees. With out my money walking though the door, there wouldn't be anything to support the owner, who then supports its employees.
That's about as elementary of an example as I can use to describe what I think about trickle down economics.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 22 2013,9:33 am
(MADDOG @ Mar. 18 2013,2:44 pm)
QUOTE
AMMO-
Why are these starting to show up in Hometown, USA?
Why are these starting to show up in Hometown, USA?
And why are military drills being conducted in so many towns and cities. These big military vehicles and even helicopters. Why now? They never did training on the streets of towns and cities before. Don't they have fake city type areas for training? Isn't the old style of training good enough anymore?
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 22 2013,10:19 am
< America's War Within >
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 22 2013,1:16 pm
(MADDOG @ Mar. 22 2013,10:19 am)
QUOTE
< America's War Within >
Even little Janesville got a military vehicle.
QUOTE
ANESVILLE — It’s not pretty but, hey, it’s free. The Janesville Police Department has scored a $38,000 used military MP1025 utility truck, better known as a Hummer, simply by asking for it.
Janesville received the Hummer through a Guard program started in 1993 to provide surplus items to law enforcement agencies for use in counter-drug investigations.
In 1997 guidelines were amended to provide law enforcement groups with free equipment for any law enforcement need.
Ulmen said the Janesville Police Department already has dipped into the program well for items such as tactical gear, night-imaging equipment and weaponry — M-16 and M-14 rifles and .45-caliber semi-automatic pistols.
“Literally, you can get anything. Heck, you could get a helicopter,” Ulmen said.
Janesville received the Hummer through a Guard program started in 1993 to provide surplus items to law enforcement agencies for use in counter-drug investigations.
In 1997 guidelines were amended to provide law enforcement groups with free equipment for any law enforcement need.
Ulmen said the Janesville Police Department already has dipped into the program well for items such as tactical gear, night-imaging equipment and weaponry — M-16 and M-14 rifles and .45-caliber semi-automatic pistols.
“Literally, you can get anything. Heck, you could get a helicopter,” Ulmen said.
< http://mankatofreepress.com/local...-Hummer >
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about Lou Dobbs or Fox news, just listen to what he is saying. I wish they wouldn't be pointing fingers at only Obama and making this partisan, but just think about the other things they are saying.
And
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 22 2013,1:42 pm
Ignore the source, just believe what they're saying?
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 22 2013,5:07 pm
^ yep, I suppose we should go to snopes.
Posted by grassman on Mar. 22 2013,5:16 pm
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 22 2013,6:35 am)
QUOTE
(Botto 82 @ Mar. 16 2013,11:02 am)
QUOTE
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 16 2013,10:15 am)
QUOTE
Do you even realize the impact those Wall Street "tycoons" and corporations have on this country? We wouldn't even be able to have this discussion if it weren't for corporations and investors.
This is the kind of brainwashed thinking that keeps us distracted from and mired in the mess we find ourselves in.
Why keep bailing these 'Too Big to Fail' types out? Surely, if capitalism was working as it should, left to its own devices, these corrupt bastards would fail, and new corporations and banks would take their place.
Trickle-down economics does not work. That has been proven time and time again. Too bad our diminishing middle class can't see that.
That doesn't mean I believe in the "too big to fail" policy or that I am ignorant to the fact there are some corporations and ceo's that have less than honest intentions.
I would like to think trickle down economics does work. If I am making more money, I am more likely to eat out which supports the restaurant industry and its employees. With out my money walking though the door, there wouldn't be anything to support the owner, who then supports its employees.
That's about as elementary of an example as I can use to describe what I think about trickle down economics.
Would you also like to believe in the Easter Bunny? Trickle down does not work. Greed takes over. Why do you think the top earners have seen such a enormous rise in profit while the lower is stagnant? Are you even paying attention?
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 22 2013,7:26 pm
(Liberal @ Mar. 22 2013,1:42 pm)
QUOTE
Ignore the source, just believe what they're saying?
How can you not see how corrupt and destructive our government is? How can you not care? And how the hell can you trust them even a little bit anymore.
The whole world knows how bad our government is, and the whole world is finally fed up with it. Finally American citizens are realizing it too and are getting fed up with it as well.
QUOTE
The Last Letter
A Message to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney From a Dying Veteran
To: George W. Bush and Dick Cheney
From: Tomas Young
I write this letter on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq War on behalf of my fellow Iraq War veterans. I write this letter on behalf of the 4,488 soldiers and Marines who died in Iraq. I write this letter on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of veterans who have been wounded and on behalf of those whose wounds, physical and psychological, have destroyed their lives. I am one of those gravely wounded. I was paralyzed in an insurgent ambush in 2004 in Sadr City. My life is coming to an end. I am living under hospice care.
I write this letter on behalf of husbands and wives who have lost spouses, on behalf of children who have lost a parent, on behalf of the fathers and mothers who have lost sons and daughters and on behalf of those who care for the many thousands of my fellow veterans who have brain injuries. I write this letter on behalf of those veterans whose trauma and self-revulsion for what they have witnessed, endured and done in Iraq have led to suicide and on behalf of the active-duty soldiers and Marines who commit, on average, a suicide a day. I write this letter on behalf of the some 1 million Iraqi dead and on behalf of the countless Iraqi wounded. I write this letter on behalf of us all—the human detritus your war has left behind, those who will spend their lives in unending pain and grief.
I write this letter, my last letter, to you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney. I write not because I think you grasp the terrible human and moral consequences of your lies, manipulation and thirst for wealth and power. I write this letter because, before my own death, I want to make it clear that I, and hundreds of thousands of my fellow veterans, along with millions of my fellow citizens, along with hundreds of millions more in Iraq and the Middle East, know fully who you are and what you have done. You may evade justice but in our eyes you are each guilty of egregious war crimes, of plunder and, finally, of murder, including the murder of thousands of young Americans—my fellow veterans—whose future you stole.
Your positions of authority, your millions of dollars of personal wealth, your public relations consultants, your privilege and your power cannot mask the hollowness of your character. You sent us to fight and die in Iraq after you, Mr. Cheney, dodged the draft in Vietnam, and you, Mr. Bush, went AWOL from your National Guard unit. Your cowardice and selfishness were established decades ago. You were not willing to risk yourselves for our nation but you sent hundreds of thousands of young men and women to be sacrificed in a senseless war with no more thought than it takes to put out the garbage.
I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much less to the United States. I did not join the Army to “liberate” Iraqis or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to implant what you cynically called “democracy” in Baghdad and the Middle East. I did not join the Army to rebuild Iraq, which at the time you told us could be paid for by Iraq’s oil revenues. Instead, this war has cost the United States over $3 trillion. I especially did not join the Army to carry out pre-emptive war. Pre-emptive war is illegal under international law. And as a soldier in Iraq I was, I now know, abetting your idiocy and your crimes. The Iraq War is the largest strategic blunder in U.S. history. It obliterated the balance of power in the Middle East. It installed a corrupt and brutal pro-Iranian government in Baghdad, one cemented in power through the use of torture, death squads and terror. And it has left Iran as the dominant force in the region. On every level—moral, strategic, military and economic—Iraq was a failure. And it was you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, who started this war. It is you who should pay the consequences.
I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11. Had I been wounded there I would still be miserable because of my physical deterioration and imminent death, but I would at least have the comfort of knowing that my injuries were a consequence of my own decision to defend the country I love. I would not have to lie in my bed, my body filled with painkillers, my life ebbing away, and deal with the fact that hundreds of thousands of human beings, including children, including myself, were sacrificed by you for little more than the greed of oil companies, for your alliance with the oil sheiks in Saudi Arabia, and your insane visions of empire.
I have, like many other disabled veterans, suffered from the inadequate and often inept care provided by the Veterans Administration. I have, like many other disabled veterans, come to realize that our mental and physical wounds are of no interest to you, perhaps of no interest to any politician. We were used. We were betrayed. And we have been abandoned. You, Mr. Bush, make much pretense of being a Christian. But isn’t lying a sin? Isn’t murder a sin? Aren’t theft and selfish ambition sins? I am not a Christian. But I believe in the Christian ideal. I believe that what you do to the least of your brothers you finally do to yourself, to your own soul.
My day of reckoning is upon me. Yours will come. I hope you will be put on trial. But mostly I hope, for your sakes, that you find the moral courage to face what you have done to me and to many, many others who deserved to live. I hope that before your time on earth ends, as mine is now ending, you will find the strength of character to stand before the American public and the world, and in particular the Iraqi people, and beg for forgiveness.
A Message to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney From a Dying Veteran
To: George W. Bush and Dick Cheney
From: Tomas Young
I write this letter on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq War on behalf of my fellow Iraq War veterans. I write this letter on behalf of the 4,488 soldiers and Marines who died in Iraq. I write this letter on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of veterans who have been wounded and on behalf of those whose wounds, physical and psychological, have destroyed their lives. I am one of those gravely wounded. I was paralyzed in an insurgent ambush in 2004 in Sadr City. My life is coming to an end. I am living under hospice care.
I write this letter on behalf of husbands and wives who have lost spouses, on behalf of children who have lost a parent, on behalf of the fathers and mothers who have lost sons and daughters and on behalf of those who care for the many thousands of my fellow veterans who have brain injuries. I write this letter on behalf of those veterans whose trauma and self-revulsion for what they have witnessed, endured and done in Iraq have led to suicide and on behalf of the active-duty soldiers and Marines who commit, on average, a suicide a day. I write this letter on behalf of the some 1 million Iraqi dead and on behalf of the countless Iraqi wounded. I write this letter on behalf of us all—the human detritus your war has left behind, those who will spend their lives in unending pain and grief.
I write this letter, my last letter, to you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney. I write not because I think you grasp the terrible human and moral consequences of your lies, manipulation and thirst for wealth and power. I write this letter because, before my own death, I want to make it clear that I, and hundreds of thousands of my fellow veterans, along with millions of my fellow citizens, along with hundreds of millions more in Iraq and the Middle East, know fully who you are and what you have done. You may evade justice but in our eyes you are each guilty of egregious war crimes, of plunder and, finally, of murder, including the murder of thousands of young Americans—my fellow veterans—whose future you stole.
Your positions of authority, your millions of dollars of personal wealth, your public relations consultants, your privilege and your power cannot mask the hollowness of your character. You sent us to fight and die in Iraq after you, Mr. Cheney, dodged the draft in Vietnam, and you, Mr. Bush, went AWOL from your National Guard unit. Your cowardice and selfishness were established decades ago. You were not willing to risk yourselves for our nation but you sent hundreds of thousands of young men and women to be sacrificed in a senseless war with no more thought than it takes to put out the garbage.
I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much less to the United States. I did not join the Army to “liberate” Iraqis or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to implant what you cynically called “democracy” in Baghdad and the Middle East. I did not join the Army to rebuild Iraq, which at the time you told us could be paid for by Iraq’s oil revenues. Instead, this war has cost the United States over $3 trillion. I especially did not join the Army to carry out pre-emptive war. Pre-emptive war is illegal under international law. And as a soldier in Iraq I was, I now know, abetting your idiocy and your crimes. The Iraq War is the largest strategic blunder in U.S. history. It obliterated the balance of power in the Middle East. It installed a corrupt and brutal pro-Iranian government in Baghdad, one cemented in power through the use of torture, death squads and terror. And it has left Iran as the dominant force in the region. On every level—moral, strategic, military and economic—Iraq was a failure. And it was you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, who started this war. It is you who should pay the consequences.
I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11. Had I been wounded there I would still be miserable because of my physical deterioration and imminent death, but I would at least have the comfort of knowing that my injuries were a consequence of my own decision to defend the country I love. I would not have to lie in my bed, my body filled with painkillers, my life ebbing away, and deal with the fact that hundreds of thousands of human beings, including children, including myself, were sacrificed by you for little more than the greed of oil companies, for your alliance with the oil sheiks in Saudi Arabia, and your insane visions of empire.
I have, like many other disabled veterans, suffered from the inadequate and often inept care provided by the Veterans Administration. I have, like many other disabled veterans, come to realize that our mental and physical wounds are of no interest to you, perhaps of no interest to any politician. We were used. We were betrayed. And we have been abandoned. You, Mr. Bush, make much pretense of being a Christian. But isn’t lying a sin? Isn’t murder a sin? Aren’t theft and selfish ambition sins? I am not a Christian. But I believe in the Christian ideal. I believe that what you do to the least of your brothers you finally do to yourself, to your own soul.
My day of reckoning is upon me. Yours will come. I hope you will be put on trial. But mostly I hope, for your sakes, that you find the moral courage to face what you have done to me and to many, many others who deserved to live. I hope that before your time on earth ends, as mine is now ending, you will find the strength of character to stand before the American public and the world, and in particular the Iraqi people, and beg for forgiveness.
< http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/the_last_letter_20130318/ >
Here, I'll save you the trouble.
< http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/tomasyoung.asp >
Remember some of the things that outraged people and allowed for the beginning of the first Gulf War? Remember being told about Iraqi's tossing babies out of incubators and leaving them to die on the cold floor? Lies. The atrocious things our government (I did not say soldiers) have done over there are war crimes, and our last four presidents, and many in their administrations should be held accountable. Now they are trying to sell the same lies about Syria and Iran.
There is absolutely no reason we should be trusting these people at all.
Posted by grassman on Mar. 22 2013,7:55 pm
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 22 2013,9:10 pm
QUOTE
How can you not see how corrupt and destructive our government is? How can you not care? And how the hell can you trust them even a little bit anymore.
My entire life you kooks have been claiming everything is a conspiracy and I've yet to see one single conspiracy theory proven true. The last time I asked you kooks for an example of a conspiracy that ended up being true and you nuts use the JFK assassination, like it was a proven fact that there was government involvement in the killing.
Do you ever wonder why no intelligent people are conspiracy nuts?
Posted by Common Citizen on Mar. 22 2013,9:42 pm
(grassman @ Mar. 22 2013,5:16 pm)
QUOTE
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 22 2013,6:35 am)
QUOTE
(Botto 82 @ Mar. 16 2013,11:02 am)
QUOTE
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 16 2013,10:15 am)
QUOTE
Do you even realize the impact those Wall Street "tycoons" and corporations have on this country? We wouldn't even be able to have this discussion if it weren't for corporations and investors.
This is the kind of brainwashed thinking that keeps us distracted from and mired in the mess we find ourselves in.
Why keep bailing these 'Too Big to Fail' types out? Surely, if capitalism was working as it should, left to its own devices, these corrupt bastards would fail, and new corporations and banks would take their place.
Trickle-down economics does not work. That has been proven time and time again. Too bad our diminishing middle class can't see that.
That doesn't mean I believe in the "too big to fail" policy or that I am ignorant to the fact there are some corporations and ceo's that have less than honest intentions.
I would like to think trickle down economics does work. If I am making more money, I am more likely to eat out which supports the restaurant industry and its employees. With out my money walking though the door, there wouldn't be anything to support the owner, who then supports its employees.
That's about as elementary of an example as I can use to describe what I think about trickle down economics.
Would you also like to believe in the Easter Bunny? Trickle down does not work. Greed takes over. Why do you think the top earners have seen such a enormous rise in profit while the lower is stagnant? Are you even paying attention?
define 'lower', and what kind of profit should they have? did these so called 'lower' take any risk to deserve the profit? no. they worked a day for days wages...not profit. there's a difference.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 23 2013,12:32 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 22 2013,9:10 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
How can you not see how corrupt and destructive our government is? How can you not care? And how the hell can you trust them even a little bit anymore.
My entire life you kooks have been claiming everything is a conspiracy and I've yet to see one single conspiracy theory proven true. The last time I asked you kooks for an example of a conspiracy that ended up being true and you nuts use the JFK assassination, like it was a proven fact that there was government involvement in the killing.
Do you ever wonder why no intelligent people are conspiracy nuts?
I gave you an example of a conspiracy theory that proved to be true long before you ever asked for an example. In the thread World War III? that Botto started. The CIA helped to overthrow the first elected Iranian official. He wanted to nationalize the country's oil that the British were pretty much stealing. He wanted to work on making his country great for the people.- Couldn't have that now could we.
The whole Iraq conspiracy is (finally) starting to be shoved out into the open. It's amazing me how quickly the truth is finally coming out, from all over the place.
US supplied Saddam with chemical and biological weapons.
The newspaper says a review of a large tranche of government documents reveals that the administrations of President Reagan and the first President Bush both authorized providing Iraq with intelligence and logistical support, and okayed the sale of dual use items — those with military and civilian applications — that included chemicals and germs, even anthrax and bubonic plague.
Congressional investigations after the Gulf War revealed that the Commerce Department had licensed sales of biological agents, including anthrax, and insecticides, which could be used in chemical weapons, to Iraq.
When Iraq used chemical weapons against the Kurds in 1987, there was anger in Congress and the White House. But a memo in 1988 from Assistant Secretary of State Richard W. Murphy stated that "The U.S.-Iraqi relationship is … important to our long-term political and economic objectives."
< http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/31/world/main534798.shtml >
The documents show that during this period of renewed U.S. support for Saddam, he had invaded his neighbor (Iran), had long-range nuclear aspirations that would "probably" include "an eventual nuclear weapon capability," harbored known terrorists in Baghdad, abused the human rights of his citizens, and possessed and used chemical weapons on Iranians and his own people. The U.S. response was to renew ties, to provide intelligence and aid to ensure Iraq would not be defeated by Iran, and to send a high-level presidential envoy named Donald Rumsfeld to shake hands with Saddam (20 December 1983).
< http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm >
The departure of the inspectors in 2003 is much more clear-cut: They wanted to keep looking for weapons of mass destruction and reported that Iraq was showing increasing cooperation. But the Bush administration clearly had its own timetable for military action.
From November 2002 through February 2003, the inspection teams conducted more than 760 inspections of 500 sites. Hans Blix, who headed what had been renamed UNMOVIC, reported there was no evidence of active chemical or biological weapons programs or stockpiles.
The IAEA reported no evidence of any kind of reconstituted nuclear weapons program. In a March 2003 appearance before the Security Council, then-IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei (now active in the Egyptian protests) went even further, directly disputing key pieces of evidence that the American administration had touted in its case for war.
< http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-ch..._i.html >
Talking points for the Rumsfeld-Franks meeting on November 27, 2001, released through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), confirm that policy makers were already looking for ways to justify invading Iraq – as indicated by Rumsfeld’s first point, “Focus on WMD.”
Rumsfeld’s notes were prepared in close consultation with senior DOD officials Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith. Among other insights, the materials posted today by the National Security Archive shed light on the intense focus on Iraq by high-level Bush administration officials long before the attacks of 9/11, and Washington’s confidence in perception management as a successful strategy for overcoming public and allied resistance to its plans.
< http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB326/index.htm >
So, we give Saddam weapons of mass destruction - because he's convenient for us, and we don't care that he's killing innocent people with them - because he's convenient for us. As soon as he invades Kuwait (which is not convenient for us because of oil) all of a sudden he's enemy #1. And all the lies they used to sell the first gulf war are finally getting attention.
The US wanted inspectors sent in because they were certain he had chemical and biological weapons. Well gee, of course they knew, they were supplying him with them. Sanctions, war, a million or more Iraqi's dead but Kuwait is safe from him, he's subdued. 2000 Saddam decides to drop the petro-dollar. All of a sudden he's enemy #1 again and the Clinton administration starts calling for regime change. And well, you see from the other info and links posted how antsy the Bush administration was as soon as they got into office.
Some of these things were discovered a couple of years ago, but in just the last few months mainstream media is starting to report on these things in a big way. And Bush people are jumping ship.
But I guess in your eyes the government never does anything wrong unless they admit to it. Unless they admit to anything like they did with Iran it's all just conspiracy kookery.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 23 2013,1:14 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 22 2013,9:10 pm)
QUOTE
My entire life you kooks have been claiming everything is a conspiracy and I've yet to see one single conspiracy theory proven true.
So I'd already given you the one about Iran, here's a few more.
The Tuskegee Experiment
In 1932, the Public Health Service, working with the Tuskegee Institute, began a study to record the natural history of syphilis in hopes of justifying treatment programs for blacks. It was called the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male."
Although originally projected to last 6 months, the study actually went on for 40 years.
The men were never given adequate treatment for their disease. Even when penicillin became the drug of choice for syphilis in 1947, researchers did not offer it to the subjects. The advisory panel found nothing to show that subjects were ever given the choice of quitting the study, even when this new, highly effective treatment became widely used.
< http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm >
Here's another one (apparently black people who already had syphillis wasn't enough)
U.S. government medical researchers intentionally infected hundreds of people in Guatemala, including institutionalized mental patients, with gonorrhea and syphilis without their knowledge or permission more than 60 years ago.
Many of those infected were encouraged to pass the infection onto others as part of the study.
< http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39456324/ns/health-sexual_health/ >
But until it was admitted to, it was just conspiracy kookery.
One of the favorites of conspiracy kooks, The MK Ultra Program:
Around the same time that the 1974 National Research Act was enacted, a scandal arose surrounding the discovery of secret Cold War chemical experiments conducted by the CIA and DOD. The review of these experiments led to the rediscovery of the previously secret 1953 Wilson memorandum and later to the first Supreme Court decision in which comment was made, in dissent, on the application of the Nuremberg Code to the conduct of the U.S. government.
In the summer of 1975, congressional hearings and the Rockefeller Commission report revealed to the public for the first time that the CIA and the DOD had conducted experiments on both cognizant and unwitting human subjects as part of an extensive program to influence and control human behavior through the use of psychoactive drugs (such as LSD and mescaline) and other chemical, biological, and psychological means. They also revealed that at least one subject had died after administration of LSD. Frank Olson, an Army scientist, was given LSD without his knowledge or consent in 1953 as part of a CIA experiment and apparently committed suicide a week later.[75] Subsequent reports would show that another person, Harold Blauer, a professional tennis player in New York City, died as a result of a secret Army experiment involving mescaline.[76]
< http://www.hss.doe.gov/healthsafety/ohre/roadmap/achre/chap3_4.html >
Operation NOrthwoods:
Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.”
< http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/ >
These are a few of the things that were conspiracy kookery until finally admitted to or finally busted. And all the people that talked about these things before they were out in the open were called nuts and kooks.
Hell, people that talk about the MK Ultra program and Operation Northwoods are still called nuts because most people don't know they've been proven.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 23 2013,8:52 am
We've been talking about conspiracy theories that were later proven true for months and didn't even realize it.For years there were people talking about how the US government had terrorist training camps set up. Training, arming and funding terrorists. Anyone who said that was a conspiracy nut. Turns out it was true didn't it?
As soon as 9-11 happened some people said Bush was going to turn this into an excuse to invade Iraq. Some were saying he had intentions of invading Iraq before he even became president. Those people were kooks. Turns out it was true didn't it?
People were saying Bush was lying about Iraq having WMD's. Government whistleblowers spoke out that translators were lying about things Guantanamo prisoners said. Government whistleblowers spoke out about how completely faulty the intelligence "evidence" that said Iraq had WMD's was. They were kooks, their careers ruined and reputations smeared. but it's finally coming out that they were telling the truth.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 23 2013,10:19 am
QUOTE
For years there were people talking about how the US government had terrorist training camps set up. Training, arming and funding terrorists. Anyone who said that was a conspiracy nut. Turns out it was true didn't it?
You need to quit reading Alex Jones. When and where did the US train terrorists at US government training camp?
QUOTE
People were saying Bush was lying about Iraq having WMD's. Government whistleblowers spoke out that translators were lying about things Guantanamo prisoners said.
Bush Sr and Reagan sold WMD's to Iraq, then later Bush Jr. lied and said Iraq had WMD's? Why would Bush Jr. have to rely on translators at all when he just had to ask his father if he sold Saddam any WMDs?
QUOTE
As soon as 9-11 happened some people said Bush was going to turn this into an excuse to invade Iraq.
This is a conspiracy theory in your mind?
Apparently in your mind anyone related to the government does something nefarious and that makes it a conspiracy theory?
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 23 2013,10:59 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 23 2013,10:19 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
For years there were people talking about how the US government had terrorist training camps set up. Training, arming and funding terrorists. Anyone who said that was a conspiracy nut. Turns out it was true didn't it?
You need to quit reading Alex Jones. When and where did the US train terrorists at US government training camp?
QUOTE
People were saying Bush was lying about Iraq having WMD's. Government whistleblowers spoke out that translators were lying about things Guantanamo prisoners said.
Bush Sr and Reagan sold WMD's to Iraq, then later Bush Jr. lied and said Iraq had WMD's? Why would Bush Jr. have to rely on translators at all when he just had to ask his father if he sold Saddam any WMDs?
QUOTE
As soon as 9-11 happened some people said Bush was going to turn this into an excuse to invade Iraq.
This is a conspiracy theory in your mind?
Apparently in your mind anyone related to the government does something nefarious and that makes it a conspiracy theory?
QUOTE
You need to quit reading Alex Jones. When and where did the US train terrorists at US government training camp?
British authorities also thought that militants from overseas were training in the United States to take advantage of America's gun laws, sources told ABCNEWS. The looming question for law enforcement is whether there is a connection between the camp and the al Qaeda terror network.
An investigation by Britain's Scotland Yard led to the discovery of the camp in Marion, Ala. The facility is called "Ground Zero USA."
Bullet-riddled police cars and a school bus with mannequin targets are scattered around the property. Inside a huge shed is an equally macabre scene — shot-up mannequins, male and female, in domestic settings, some with red, blood-like stains on them.
< http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130208&page=1 >
EDITED:
I accidentally copy and pasted from the wrong computer notepad note for the last entry. That's from something else I'm looking into. I am really really sorry about that. This is the one that should have been copy and pasted:
QUOTE
I've never seen people anywhere who could be so quickly trained to use weapons of any kind. They're natural warriors, that made them easy to deal with.
< http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarch...n2.html >
and I'm just going to add this to it:
INTERVIEWER: I mean how did that relationship work, I mean could you talk a little bit about, the sort of the major, major military packages, that were involved with Pakistan in regard to F16s which of course are mostly interested in their fighting in India, weren't they.
(He avoids answering anything about giving Pakistan F16's)
But:
The aircraft order is designated as "Peace Drive I," continuing a long tradition of naming F-16 international sales programs with the word Peace. The program raises the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982.
< http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us...rs.html >
INTERVIEWER: I mean before the invasion of Afghanistan the US had consistently criticized Pakistan over its development of a nuclear deterrent in fact even its human rights record, yet it was willing to give them an easy ride when it came to acting as a conduit for military aid. Why?
(Sounds like Iraq)
< http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarch...n3.html >
*******************
Again:
QUOTE
Bush Sr and Reagan sold WMD's to Iraq, then later Bush Jr. lied and said Iraq had WMD's? Why would Bush Jr. have to rely on translators at all when he just had to ask his father if he sold Saddam any WMDs?
Wow, you are thick. Saddam didn't have much left by the time inspectors went in before the first gulf war. What he did have left he destroyed. Inspectors did find a little bit but nothing significant. It's in their reports. After we invaded Iraq in 03, one of the lies the Bush administration as for the reason for invading was that Saddam had WMD's. They used torture trying to get prisoners to admit to it. Some of the translators gave false translations of some of the interrogations, other translators blew the whistle on that. When the 9-11 commission asked for the videos of the interrogations, they were destroyed. - That is in the 9-11 commission I've already linked to a couple of times. That was one of the reasons some of the commissioners gave for saying they feel they were lied to and that the 9-11 commission investigation was a sham.
They needed "evidence" that there were WMD's in Iraq.
Is it really that difficult for you to realize things or are you just trying to save face and ATTEMPT yet again to win arguements?
QUOTE
QUOTE
As soon as 9-11 happened some people said Bush was going to turn this into an excuse to invade Iraq.
This is a conspiracy theory in your mind?
Yep. And all of the things pointed out already prove that.
QUOTE
Apparently in your mind anyone related to the government does something nefarious and that makes it a conspiracy theory?
Yeah, sure, whatever liberal.
It's nice that the thought of our government deliberately inflicting so much death and destruction doesn't bother you.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 25 2013,10:48 am
Colt CEO speaks out.QUOTE
As a leader of a Connecticut manufacturing business who answers to owners, I can tell you the one question I am asked regularly, "Why does it make sense to stay or grow here?"
For 175 years, Hartford and Connecticut have been our home. The genius and vision of Samuel Colt built a core of manufacturing excellence that helped make Hartford one of the nation's wealthiest cities and ignited the industrial revolution in the Connecticut River Valley. Amazingly, that heritage continues with a substantial firearms industry and a critical mass of skilled craftsman and machining expertise for aerospace and other precision industries that are the envy of the country.
But this tremendous economic advantage is in grave danger. What's most astounding is our advantage is not being taken away — it's being given away.
Colt, for example, manufactures the AR-15 platform rifles in a military version and a very different commercial version. Colt has manufactured the commercial semi-automatic version of the AR (one shot for each trigger pull) since 1963. The AR-15 has evolved into the modern sporting rifle. It is owned and used responsibly by millions of Americans for hunting, target shooting and home defense. This product is the backbone of our business and is very important to us and our customers.
Now Gov. Dannel P. Malloy says that with or without bipartisan consensus, he intends to ban this rifle. But a ban of the most popular semiautomatic rifle in the United States for what are essentially cosmetic reasons would make no one safer and punish a vital Connecticut industry.
Changes are needed to make our communities safer, and there are things we can all agree on to meet this goal. We should focus on keeping firearms out of the wrong hands.
We must strengthen what we know works such as strictly enforcing penalties for those who purchase or possess an illegal firearm. We can build on the existing National Instant Background Checks to bring all appropriate mental health and other records, such as restraining orders, into the system.
We can educate gun owners and enforce laws on the safe storage of firearms in the home (Imagine if the firearms criminally and insanely misused in Newtown had been stored securely.) I have two young children and like so many in our state, I identify with, but can only imagine, the searing pain of those parents who lost children in Newtown. If I thought a ban would make the state and especially its children safer, I could not write these words.
The fact is bans don't work. We tried to ban alcohol nearly 100 years ago, which just drove a regulated activity underground.
I know one thing that the governor's proposed ban will do: It will irreparably damage — if not destroy — the brand of any Connecticut firearms manufacturer.
Our customers are unusually brand-loyal. In many cases, they personally identify with the firearm brand they choose. Although our Connecticut heritage has historically enhanced our brand, that will change overnight if we ban the modern sporting rifle.
As a result Colt, as well as other Connecticut manufacturers such as Mossberg and Stag Arms will see immediate erosion in brand strength and market share as customers migrate to manufacturers in more supportive states. This will have consequences for dozens of Connecticut companies and thousands of workers. Connecticut will have put its firearms manufacturing industry in jeopardy: one that contributes $1.7 billion annually to the state's economy.
Like every other precision manufacturer in Connecticut, Colt is constantly approached by other states to relocate, but our roots here are deep. Colt is and always has been an integral part of a state characterized by hard work, perseverance and ingenuity.
I know, however, that someday soon, I will again be asked why we fight to keep well-paying manufacturing jobs in Connecticut. I will be asked why we should continue to manufacture in a state where the governor would make ownership of our product a felony.
I will be asked these questions and, unlike in the past, there will be few good answers.
Dennis Veilleux is president and CEO of Colt's Manufacturing Co. based in West Hartford. < The Hartford Courant >
For 175 years, Hartford and Connecticut have been our home. The genius and vision of Samuel Colt built a core of manufacturing excellence that helped make Hartford one of the nation's wealthiest cities and ignited the industrial revolution in the Connecticut River Valley. Amazingly, that heritage continues with a substantial firearms industry and a critical mass of skilled craftsman and machining expertise for aerospace and other precision industries that are the envy of the country.
But this tremendous economic advantage is in grave danger. What's most astounding is our advantage is not being taken away — it's being given away.
Colt, for example, manufactures the AR-15 platform rifles in a military version and a very different commercial version. Colt has manufactured the commercial semi-automatic version of the AR (one shot for each trigger pull) since 1963. The AR-15 has evolved into the modern sporting rifle. It is owned and used responsibly by millions of Americans for hunting, target shooting and home defense. This product is the backbone of our business and is very important to us and our customers.
Now Gov. Dannel P. Malloy says that with or without bipartisan consensus, he intends to ban this rifle. But a ban of the most popular semiautomatic rifle in the United States for what are essentially cosmetic reasons would make no one safer and punish a vital Connecticut industry.
Changes are needed to make our communities safer, and there are things we can all agree on to meet this goal. We should focus on keeping firearms out of the wrong hands.
We must strengthen what we know works such as strictly enforcing penalties for those who purchase or possess an illegal firearm. We can build on the existing National Instant Background Checks to bring all appropriate mental health and other records, such as restraining orders, into the system.
We can educate gun owners and enforce laws on the safe storage of firearms in the home (Imagine if the firearms criminally and insanely misused in Newtown had been stored securely.) I have two young children and like so many in our state, I identify with, but can only imagine, the searing pain of those parents who lost children in Newtown. If I thought a ban would make the state and especially its children safer, I could not write these words.
The fact is bans don't work. We tried to ban alcohol nearly 100 years ago, which just drove a regulated activity underground.
I know one thing that the governor's proposed ban will do: It will irreparably damage — if not destroy — the brand of any Connecticut firearms manufacturer.
Our customers are unusually brand-loyal. In many cases, they personally identify with the firearm brand they choose. Although our Connecticut heritage has historically enhanced our brand, that will change overnight if we ban the modern sporting rifle.
As a result Colt, as well as other Connecticut manufacturers such as Mossberg and Stag Arms will see immediate erosion in brand strength and market share as customers migrate to manufacturers in more supportive states. This will have consequences for dozens of Connecticut companies and thousands of workers. Connecticut will have put its firearms manufacturing industry in jeopardy: one that contributes $1.7 billion annually to the state's economy.
Like every other precision manufacturer in Connecticut, Colt is constantly approached by other states to relocate, but our roots here are deep. Colt is and always has been an integral part of a state characterized by hard work, perseverance and ingenuity.
I know, however, that someday soon, I will again be asked why we fight to keep well-paying manufacturing jobs in Connecticut. I will be asked why we should continue to manufacture in a state where the governor would make ownership of our product a felony.
I will be asked these questions and, unlike in the past, there will be few good answers.
Dennis Veilleux is president and CEO of Colt's Manufacturing Co. based in West Hartford. < The Hartford Courant >
Conspiracy...what conspiracy?
Kind of reminiscent of another group.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 25 2013,10:51 am
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 25 2013,1:25 pm
You kooks are not smart enough to even understand what a conspiracy theory is. You might not be so stupid if you got your news somewhere other than 2 year old youtube videos.
Posted by Moparman on Mar. 25 2013,2:56 pm
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 22 2013,9:42 pm)
QUOTE
(grassman @ Mar. 22 2013,5:16 pm)
QUOTE
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 22 2013,6:35 am)
QUOTE
(Botto 82 @ Mar. 16 2013,11:02 am)
QUOTE
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 16 2013,10:15 am)
QUOTE
Do you even realize the impact those Wall Street "tycoons" and corporations have on this country? We wouldn't even be able to have this discussion if it weren't for corporations and investors.
This is the kind of brainwashed thinking that keeps us distracted from and mired in the mess we find ourselves in.
Why keep bailing these 'Too Big to Fail' types out? Surely, if capitalism was working as it should, left to its own devices, these corrupt bastards would fail, and new corporations and banks would take their place.
Trickle-down economics does not work. That has been proven time and time again. Too bad our diminishing middle class can't see that.
That doesn't mean I believe in the "too big to fail" policy or that I am ignorant to the fact there are some corporations and ceo's that have less than honest intentions.
I would like to think trickle down economics does work. If I am making more money, I am more likely to eat out which supports the restaurant industry and its employees. With out my money walking though the door, there wouldn't be anything to support the owner, who then supports its employees.
That's about as elementary of an example as I can use to describe what I think about trickle down economics.
Would you also like to believe in the Easter Bunny? Trickle down does not work. Greed takes over. Why do you think the top earners have seen such a enormous rise in profit while the lower is stagnant? Are you even paying attention?
define 'lower', and what kind of profit should they have? did these so called 'lower' take any risk to deserve the profit? no. they worked a day for days wages...not profit. there's a difference.
They only risk their entire income... That's all. If they don't do their job the "lowers" get fired and if they do an outstanding job they get nothing. With golden parachutes, lenient corporate bankruptcy rules, investment loss write offs, don't come crying about all this " risk" being taken. You left out the most important word in your " worked a day for a days wage" and that word is fair.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 25 2013,3:33 pm
Actually, Herr Obama made that statement 4 years ago.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 25 2013,6:48 pm
(Moparman @ Mar. 25 2013,2:56 pm)
QUOTE
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 22 2013,9:42 pm)
QUOTE
(grassman @ Mar. 22 2013,5:16 pm)
QUOTE
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 22 2013,6:35 am)
QUOTE
(Botto 82 @ Mar. 16 2013,11:02 am)
QUOTE
(Common Citizen @ Mar. 16 2013,10:15 am)
QUOTE
Do you even realize the impact those Wall Street "tycoons" and corporations have on this country? We wouldn't even be able to have this discussion if it weren't for corporations and investors.
This is the kind of brainwashed thinking that keeps us distracted from and mired in the mess we find ourselves in.
Why keep bailing these 'Too Big to Fail' types out? Surely, if capitalism was working as it should, left to its own devices, these corrupt bastards would fail, and new corporations and banks would take their place.
Trickle-down economics does not work. That has been proven time and time again. Too bad our diminishing middle class can't see that.
That doesn't mean I believe in the "too big to fail" policy or that I am ignorant to the fact there are some corporations and ceo's that have less than honest intentions.
I would like to think trickle down economics does work. If I am making more money, I am more likely to eat out which supports the restaurant industry and its employees. With out my money walking though the door, there wouldn't be anything to support the owner, who then supports its employees.
That's about as elementary of an example as I can use to describe what I think about trickle down economics.
Would you also like to believe in the Easter Bunny? Trickle down does not work. Greed takes over. Why do you think the top earners have seen such a enormous rise in profit while the lower is stagnant? Are you even paying attention?
define 'lower', and what kind of profit should they have? did these so called 'lower' take any risk to deserve the profit? no. they worked a day for days wages...not profit. there's a difference.
They only risk their entire income... That's all. If they don't do their job the "lowers" get fired and if they do an outstanding job they get nothing. With golden parachutes, lenient corporate bankruptcy rules, investment loss write offs, don't come crying about all this " risk" being taken. You left out the most important word in your " worked a day for a days wage" and that word is fair.
If your work is so excellent go out and start a business and possibly reap the rewards. There's no guarentee you'll be a success, oh wait, you want a safe secure existence? You want to not worry if your business will fail, make a payroll, pay your social insecurity taxes? Pay the vendors, keep the lights on, etc, etc,... Don't want to do all those things and more?
Get a job, be thankful and work for someone.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 25 2013,9:25 pm
Has this one been posted in here yet? I can't remember which ammo orders we've talked about and which is new.100,000 Commercial Leaded Training Ammo (CLTA) Pistol Cartridge .40 caliber 165 Grain, jacketed Hollow point
100,000 Commercial Leaded Training Ammo (CLTA) 9MM 115 GRAIN JACKETED HOLLOW POINT
40,000 Commercial Leaded Training Ammo (CLTA) PISTOL CARTIDGE 9MM BALL 124 GRAIN
< https://marketplace.fedbid.com/fbweb...VXBA0Or >
---------------------------
The DHS Federal Law Enforcement Training Center requires the following items, Brand Name or Equal, to the following:
LI 001: Ammunition, Commercial leaded training ammo (CLTA) Pistol .40 caliber 165 grain, jacketed hollow point (JHP) p/n P40HSTS3G or equal - Brass casing. Quantity of 360,000 rounds - newly loaded unit price per 1000 rounds with FOB Destination., 360, CA;
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
(Now they specify TRAINING Ammo)
Anyone know how many different sites there are for federal business opportunities? I've seen three different ones so far. Just wondering if there are more.
Posted by Common Citizen on Mar. 26 2013,8:21 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 25 2013,1:25 pm)
QUOTE
You kooks are not smart enough to even understand what a conspiracy theory is.
You might not be so stupid if you got your news somewhere other than 2 year old youtube videos.
You might not be so stupid if you got your news somewhere other than 2 year old youtube videos.
QUOTE
The George Soros-funded Obama campaign front group Think Progress has responded to concerns about a DHS arms build-up by claiming the whole issue is a ‘debunked conspiracy theory’.
In an article entitled, OOPS: Fox News Peddles Conspiracy Theory It Already Debunked, the website claims that the, “DHS justified the purchases in a letter to lawmakers,” by explaining, “that it regularly purchases ammunition in bulk to save money and noted that “the 1.6 billion number was misleading because the language of DHS’s purchase said it would need ‘up to’ a certain amount.”
In an article entitled, OOPS: Fox News Peddles Conspiracy Theory It Already Debunked, the website claims that the, “DHS justified the purchases in a letter to lawmakers,” by explaining, “that it regularly purchases ammunition in bulk to save money and noted that “the 1.6 billion number was misleading because the language of DHS’s purchase said it would need ‘up to’ a certain amount.”
I get that they need ammunition to supply certain occupations within the DHS. I also get that ammunition purchases will also be used for training at shooting ranges for qualifications.
My question is why the need for all the hollow points? If what I read is correct, the government is waisting money on allowing these units to train with hollow points instead of FMJ's.
Let's say the DHS story is true. That they purchase in bulk so the supply will last them for the next five years. Don't you find it odd that their decision would affect the supply of the product to civilians? Don't you think with the proper planning the ammo companies would have been better prepared to financially capitalize on both the DHS government contract and civilian orders? This isn't the first rodeo for the ammunition industry. I can't imagine any company not getting enough lead time when government agencies place bulk orders to last them for the next 5 years.
I can understand supply and demand not keeping up during WWII but this is 2013 and our manufacturing technology far exceeds the manufacturing technology of the 1940's.
It doesn't pass the sniff test.
nuff said...
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 26 2013,11:16 am
CC:QUOTE
Let's say the DHS story is true. That they purchase in bulk so the supply will last them for the next five years. Don't you find it odd that their decision would affect the supply of the product to civilians? Don't you think with the proper planning the ammo companies would have been better prepared to financially capitalize on both the DHS government contract and civilian orders? This isn't the first rodeo for the ammunition industry. I can't imagine any company not getting enough lead time when government agencies place bulk orders to last them for the next 5 years.
And it's also affecting the ability of towns and cities police agencies from getting ammo.
In the least, shouldn't Janet Napolitano or Obama get up and respond to these things themselves? -It shouldn't be left to some spokesperson or Soros funded campaign group. They know what a panic this is causing and how it is affecting things. Do they actually want people worried and panic buying? Would they not be able to prove that this is nothing new and that DHS has always purchased this much ammo?
QUOTE
It doesn't pass the sniff test.
I agree, and since they don't want to respond to what is obviously becoming a big situation, then that only forces us to guess as to what is going on. - American citizens shouldn't have to guess.
Do they want us getting wigged out or are they really hiding something?
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 26 2013,11:44 am
From the Hornady website. QUOTE
A Word on Availability
The current politcal climate has caused extremely high demand on all shooting industry products, including ours. Empty retail shelves, long backorders, and exaggerated price increases on online auction sites – all fueled by rumors and conjecture – have amplified concerns about the availability of ammunition and firearms-related items.
If the information you hear doesn’t originate from Hornady Manufacturing, don’t believe it.
Here are some of rumors we’ve heard, and questions we’ve received:
Have you stopped production, or has the government forced you to stop?
Not at all.
Did you stop selling bullets so you could only make loaded ammunition?
Absolutely not.
Since we can’t find your product you must be selling it all to the government.
Nope, less than 5% of our sales are to government entities.
Why can’t you make more? Ramp up production? Turn on all the machines?
We’ve been steadily growing our production for a long time, especially the last five years. We’ve added presses, lathes, CNC equipment, people and space. Many popular items are produced 24 hours a day. Several hundred Hornady employees work overtime every week to produce as much as safely possible. If there is any question about that – please take a tour of the factory. You’ll be amazed at what you see.
We are producing as much as we can; much more than last year, which was a lot more than the year before, etc. No one wants to ship more during this time than we do.
We appreciate everyone’s understanding and patience. We don’t know when the situation will improve, so please bear with us a little longer. And remember, when it comes to Hornady Manufacturing, if you don’t hear it from us, please don’t believe it.
< http://www.hornady.com/support/availability >
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 26 2013,12:01 pm
You're right CC. You don't buy JHP rounds to target shoot. Now I heard that the DHS has bought another 360,000 rounds according to the < FBO. > Just how large of a standing army does the DHS have?
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 26 2013,12:06 pm
Ammo purchase explanation from the Military Times. Of course the kooks will think the Military Times is in on the conspiracy.< http://militarytimes.com/blogs...rry-you >
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 26 2013,12:24 pm
(Liberal @ Mar. 26 2013,12:06 pm)
QUOTE
Ammo purchase explanation from the Military Times. Of course the kooks will think the Military Times is in on the conspiracy.
< http://militarytimes.com/blogs...rry-you >
< http://militarytimes.com/blogs...rry-you >
I'd already read that article, and it only cites a couple of the purchases that talk about the amount of the orders as "up to" a certain amount. Not all of the DHS orders state that. It also doesn't mention how DHS has started redacting public information about these purchases.
So if this is just business as usual, why doesn't someone come out and explain it. Not just explain it, answer questions and show that this is how it's always been done.
Wouldn't they want to clear this up so law enforcement agencies aren't having problems buying their own ammo?
Again, shouldn't Janet Napolitano or Obama see the importance of clearing this up instead of leaving it to a military blog article, campaign funding organization or spokesperson nobody has ever heard of before?
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 26 2013,12:31 pm
QUOTE
So if this is just business as usual, why doesn't someone come out and explain it.
The article explained it, if you're not smart enough to understand it I can't help you.
Posted by Common Citizen on Mar. 26 2013,12:40 pm
The article brings up a few more questions to mind though.QUOTE
An IDIQ, or indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity contract, means that DHS didn’t simply buy 450 million rounds of ammunition at one time. The contract is spread out over a 5 year period, and it’s an upper limit, meaning up-to-90 million rounds of .40 S&W each year from that up-to-450 million round award. DHS could, if they wished, buy 73 million rounds the first year, 84 million the second, and so on. It depends on their needs at the time.
The IDIQ doesn't state that they're not allowed to purchase all at once. The blogger goes on to describe a hypothetical way DHS could purchase the rounds but does not give evidence that that is what they'll do.
QUOTE
Put simply, there’s no way that FLETC is going to actually buy 750 million rounds of ammunition. Given the historical use of ammo at FLETC of approximately 15 million rounds per year or less, it’s probably going to be pretty close to the line items in the PDF linked above which, again, total 63 million rounds over a 5 year time frame.
The blogger again gives his opinion on how the FLETC is going to buy rounds. He even downplays the point that a DHS states they have a contract ceiling of 750 million rounds but that it won't likely happen based on historical purchases and will probably be closer to 63 million rounds. how often to you hear a gov't agency purchasing supplies way below what their allotment is? Usually...never. Or they will lose that budget. If they have a history of making much larger purchasing requests than what they actually buy, I'd say their purchasing officer needs a course in budgeting or they're just incompetent and don't care.
That is quite a difference. In fact that the request is about 12x's higher than what the blogger is claiming will be purchased. Why?
QUOTE
Furthermore, federal agents, including those under DHS, generally use the same ammunition for duty and practice.
This goes back to my previous post. Why do they use costly ammunition to practice?
Good article but it is also filled with a lot of assumptions.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 26 2013,1:13 pm
(Liberal @ Mar. 26 2013,12:31 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
So if this is just business as usual, why doesn't someone come out and explain it.
The article explained it, if you're not smart enough to understand it I can't help you.
So typical of you. Posting an article that doesn't even mention the biggest issues, and then calling someone names for "not understanding the article".
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 26 2013,2:00 pm
QUOTE
how often to you hear a gov't agency purchasing supplies way below what their allotment is? Usually...never. Or they will lose that budget.
Nobody bought anything, it's a request for a quote.
QUOTE
This goes back to my previous post. Why do they use costly ammunition to practice?
Apparently they like to practice with the same ammo they carry, and since it's not their money...
Maybe Faux news can explain it to the bunker dwellers that still don't get it?
< http://mediamatters.org/embed...dhsammo >
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 26 2013,4:02 pm
So first DHS says it's only "up to" a certain amount (even though not all of the orders have an open purchase agreement). And it explains that most of the ammunition is for target and practice shooting. Now it's buying 600,000 more rounds labeled as "training ammo" . < https://marketplace.fedbid.com/fbweb...VXBA0Or >
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...cview=0 >
^Neither of those training ammo orders says "up to".
And like I've already said, since this whole thing is causing such a panic and mess, why wouldn't Napolitano or Obama try to stop panic buying so that police agencies aren't having difficulties getting the ammunition they need? Just keep having unofficial blogs "clear everything up".
Why not show the people who are in a panic the proof of what the spokesperson said. They honestly think people are just going to stop mass purchases of ammunition with the feeble excuses already given? Especially when they say they are so determined to get gun violence under control and are trying to pass legislation to accomplish that.
Doesn't make sense.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 26 2013,5:53 pm
DOD's increased requirements for small and medium caliber ammunitionover the past several years are largely the result of increased weapons
training requirements needed to support the Army's transformation to a
more self-sustaining and lethal force--an effort accelerated after the
terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001--and the deployment of forces to
conduct recent U.S. military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq. Between
fiscal years 2001 and 2005, total requirements for small caliber
ammunitions more than doubled, from about 730 million to nearly
1.8 billion rounds, while total requirements for medium caliber
ammunitions increased from 11.7 million rounds to almost 22 million
rounds.
The 5.56mm rounds--used in the M16 rifle, the standard weapon used by
soldiers--accounted for much of the small caliber increase (see table 2).
< http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2htm...ges=yes >
So DHS agencies use only about 1/5 less ammunition than the entire United States military does? Even when active combat in 2 different countries was happening?
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 26 2013,5:55 pm
DHS responded to Congress but you nuts don't believe anything that doesn't come from the kookosphere.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 26 2013,11:42 pm
(Liberal @ Mar. 26 2013,5:55 pm)
QUOTE
DHS responded to Congress but you nuts don't believe anything that doesn't come from the kookosphere.
DHS reported to the GAO, that the entire CBP budget was $11,254,520 for 2011
CBP ammunition was $13,895,900
ICE: $$5,821,752 Ammunition: $4,505,731
Coast Guard: $10,193,705 Ammunition: $8,442,495
Doesn't list FLETC in this budget authority but from 2004-2007 FLETC was given :
DHS component agency/program: Federal Law Enforcement Training Center;
Fiscal year 2004 budget authority: $191,643;
Fiscal year 2005 budget authority: $226,807;
Fiscal year 2006 budget authority: $304,534;
Fiscal year 2007 budget authority: $275,279.
FLETC Ammo cost
$5,507,057 - 2010
$7,062,254 - 2011
$2,485,045 - 2012
That's a huge huge difference between total budget 2004-2007 to ammo cost 2010-1012
The cost of ammunition for each agency is almost the same, or more, as what it costs to run each agency completely other than ammunition?
Senator Coburn posted the letter from DHS at this link:
< http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...52c9feb >
The 2010-2012 ammunition breakdown is Letter #2.
The explanation from DHS sounds even more like BS than it did before. Compare what the DHS reported was spent to run each agency completely, then compare it to what it says is being spent on ammunition alone. No wonder they only sent him information for the last three years.
2010 Rounds of ammunition DHS purchased: 148,314,825
2011 : 108,664,054
2012: 103,178,200
Current DHS Rounds Inventory: 263,733,362
So if DHS is threatening to start laying off border patrol agents, it released 2,000 illegal immigrants, and planned on releasing 3,000 more this month (until the news broke) then why wouldn't occur to them to use up the inventory they already have instead of ordering more? Supposedly what they hold in inventory is more than they use yearly.
DHS Budget breakdown for each agency 2004-2007:
< http://www.gao.gov/assets/270/266285.html >
DHS Budget breakdown for each agency 2004-2011 (with several agencies left out): Scroll down to page 12.
< http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2htm...ges=yes >
Load of crap.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 27 2013,5:02 am
So alot of this is getting blamed on practice ammo. I can see some wonky administrative type mandating practicing with what you carry. I go to a range more than most people and what I've noticed over the years is that most cops can't shoot very good and this is because they only get to the range on e or twice a year, shoot a box, maybe two of ammo and go home. I'm guessing these gov. types are similar. So why all the ammo?
Why is every manufacturer and importer out? Why is .22 LR so short and going for $65 a brick online, the answers I'm hearing as thin.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 27 2013,5:47 am
QUOTE
Perhaps most strangely, some have cited the purchase of hollow-point ammunition as evidence of the federal government's evil motives. Hollow-points are the defensive ammunition of choice for federal, state and local law enforcement officers across the country, just as they are for private citizens. These attacks are eerily similar to statements made by gun prohibitionists, who spent the much of the '70s, '80s and '90s complaining about "dum dum" bullets. (In fact, the Violence Policy Center's website still exhibits a publication lamenting that federal ammunition law "has no effect on today's generation of high-tech hollow-point ammunition.") The attacks also ignore the fact that federal agents, unlike average taxpayers on more limited budgets, normally train and qualify with their duty ammunition.
As most gun owners will agree, skepticism of government is healthy. But today, there are more than enough actual threats to the Second Amendment to keep gun owners busy. With two key Supreme Court decisions hanging by a one-vote margin, the Justice Department deeply involved in a cover-up of a disastrous Mexican gun smuggling operation, and President Obama touting a ban on popular semi-automatic firearms, there is no need to invent additional threats to our rights.
< http://www.nraila.org/news-is...on.aspx >
Apparently Hornady, Fox News, The Military Times, and the NRA are all in on the conspiracy.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 27 2013,9:42 am
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 27 2013,5:02 am)
QUOTE
So alot of this is getting blamed on practice ammo. I can see some wonky administrative type mandating practicing with what you carry.
Why is every manufacturer and importer out? Why is .22 LR so short and going for $65 a brick online, the answers I'm hearing as thin.
Why is every manufacturer and importer out? Why is .22 LR so short and going for $65 a brick online, the answers I'm hearing as thin.
So I get lucky yesterday and found a few rounds. Two boxes FMJ@$9.95 per box and one box SP@$19.85. Both Winchester which is definitely not my first choice of ammo. Which do you think I'm going to use for target?
SB, no .22LR boxes unless you want birdshot.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 27 2013,10:00 am
QUOTE
Why is every manufacturer and importer out? Why is .22 LR so short and going for $65 a brick online, the answers I'm hearing as thin.
Some of what I've been hearing is because of a shortage of .223/5.56 ammo, guys that use the range frequently are buying and converting their ARs to .22 for < cheaper target shooting >.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 27 2013,10:45 am
Up to 2001 the entire United States military was using approximately 730 million small caliber rounds per year.DHS gives itself room to use 1/5 of what the entire military used to use? Using the words "up to" does not make what they pay any cheaper if they only use a fraction of the "up to" amount specified. It just gives them priority over other buyers if they decide to call the "up to" order in. I understand that DHS buying in bulk and then spreading the ammo across all of it's agencies itself would save money, but the ceiling amount does nothing.
DOD ammunition usage 2001 :
< http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2htm...ges=yes >
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 27 2013,10:56 am
In August they Awarded a $4,643,040.00 contract for .223 Duty Ammuntion.< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
In January they awarded a $45,758.00 contract for 40 Cal, 180 Grain, Jacketed Hollow Point Ammunition. Amount of rounds redacted.
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
Just this week they put up a solicitation for 100,000 more bullets.
4,000- 45 Long Colt
20,000 -45 ACP 230GR JHP
40,000 -22 LONG RIFLE CCI GREEN TAG COMPETITION RIMFIRE AMMUNITION
4,680- 30-30 160 gr. - this is being used for a Government gun. (Odd. Does anyone know what that means?)
The amount for the order is messed up. Looks like 20,ooo for 12 gauge birdshot.
10,000 410 GAUGE #9 WINCHESTER
6,000 357 MAGNUM 180 GRAIN JHP
5,000 7.69X39MM 123 GRAIN
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...cview=1 >
I have no idea what most of these ammunition names mean. It is a definite quantity. No "up to".
Over half a million rounds in just two solicitations for training ammo. No "up to".
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
< https://marketplace.fedbid.com/fbweb...VXBA0Or >
FLETC only operates four facilities in the US. One of those is for use by only the personnel in Washington DC. How many trips a year do all the federal employees make to these 3 facilities to be able to use up that much ammunition?
That's a lot of feds flying around to keep their shooting skills sharp.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 27 2013,12:11 pm
(MADDOG @ Mar. 27 2013,9:42 am)
QUOTE
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 27 2013,5:02 am)
QUOTE
So alot of this is getting blamed on practice ammo. I can see some wonky administrative type mandating practicing with what you carry.
Why is every manufacturer and importer out? Why is .22 LR so short and going for $65 a brick online, the answers I'm hearing as thin.
Why is every manufacturer and importer out? Why is .22 LR so short and going for $65 a brick online, the answers I'm hearing as thin.
So I get lucky yesterday and found a few rounds. Two boxes FMJ@$9.95 per box and one box SP@$19.85. Both Winchester which is definitely not my first choice of ammo. Which do you think I'm going to use for target?
SB, no .22LR boxes unless you want birdshot.
Good score on the $9.95 ammo, from what I'm hearing it's going to be 12-18 months before we start seeing ammo in any quantity.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 27 2013,4:51 pm
A weapons manufacturer who fills government contracts talks to Savage Nation radio. Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 28 2013,5:46 am
(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 27 2013,10:56 am)
QUOTE
In August they Awarded a $4,643,040.00 contract for .223 Duty Ammuntion.
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
In January they awarded a $45,758.00 contract for 40 Cal, 180 Grain, Jacketed Hollow Point Ammunition. Amount of rounds redacted.
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
Just this week they put up a solicitation for 100,000 more bullets.
4,000- 45 Long Colt
20,000 -45 ACP 230GR JHP
40,000 -22 LONG RIFLE CCI GREEN TAG COMPETITION RIMFIRE AMMUNITION
4,680- 30-30 160 gr. - this is being used for a Government gun. (Odd. Does anyone know what that means?)
The amount for the order is messed up. Looks like 20,ooo for 12 gauge birdshot.
10,000 410 GAUGE #9 WINCHESTER
6,000 357 MAGNUM 180 GRAIN JHP
5,000 7.69X39MM 123 GRAIN
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...cview=1 >
I have no idea what most of these ammunition names mean. It is a definite quantity. No "up to".
Over half a million rounds in just two solicitations for training ammo. No "up to".
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
< https://marketplace.fedbid.com/fbweb...VXBA0Or >
FLETC only operates four facilities in the US. One of those is for use by only the personnel in Washington DC. How many trips a year do all the federal employees make to these 3 facilities to be able to use up that much ammunition?
That's a lot of feds flying around to keep their shooting skills sharp.
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
In January they awarded a $45,758.00 contract for 40 Cal, 180 Grain, Jacketed Hollow Point Ammunition. Amount of rounds redacted.
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
Just this week they put up a solicitation for 100,000 more bullets.
4,000- 45 Long Colt
20,000 -45 ACP 230GR JHP
40,000 -22 LONG RIFLE CCI GREEN TAG COMPETITION RIMFIRE AMMUNITION
4,680- 30-30 160 gr. - this is being used for a Government gun. (Odd. Does anyone know what that means?)
The amount for the order is messed up. Looks like 20,ooo for 12 gauge birdshot.
10,000 410 GAUGE #9 WINCHESTER
6,000 357 MAGNUM 180 GRAIN JHP
5,000 7.69X39MM 123 GRAIN
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...cview=1 >
I have no idea what most of these ammunition names mean. It is a definite quantity. No "up to".
Over half a million rounds in just two solicitations for training ammo. No "up to".
< https://www.fbo.gov/index?s...=list&= >
< https://marketplace.fedbid.com/fbweb...VXBA0Or >
FLETC only operates four facilities in the US. One of those is for use by only the personnel in Washington DC. How many trips a year do all the federal employees make to these 3 facilities to be able to use up that much ammunition?
That's a lot of feds flying around to keep their shooting skills sharp.
45 long colt? 30-30? 12ga birdshot? WTF!
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 28 2013,7:32 am
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 28 2013,5:46 am)
QUOTE
45 long colt? 30-30? 12ga birdshot? WTF!
Maybe the birdshot is for hunting with Cheney?
But what does this mean?
QUOTE
4,680- 30-30 160 gr. - this is being used for a Government gun.
I wouldn't have thought anything of it except I've never seen a description like that before. "This is being used for a Government gun." Odd lol. Isn't all this ammunition for Government guns?
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 28 2013,8:39 am
You've got the government figured out now, they have to be up to something buying 4600 rounds of hunting ammo.Good thing we have you internet detectives figuring this stuff out before the government puts us all in FEMA camps using those 4600 rounds of 30-30 ammo.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 28 2013,8:49 am
^ I don't know Roz, it seems to me that maybe the gov. just wants to use up everything. 30-30 uses a .308 bullet. The 30-30 cartridge was developed over a hundred years ago and uses a blunt nosed bullet so that it can be used in a tubular magazine. Maybe all the birdshot is for the boy president to go trap shooting at camp David.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 28 2013,8:51 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 28 2013,8:39 am)
QUOTE
You've got the government figured out now, they have to be up to something buying 4600 rounds of hunting ammo.
Good thing we have you internet detectives figuring this stuff out before the government puts us all in FEMA camps using those 4600 rounds of 30-30 ammo.
Good thing we have you internet detectives figuring this stuff out before the government puts us all in FEMA camps using those 4600 rounds of 30-30 ammo.
Such a tool.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 28 2013,9:29 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 28 2013,8:39 am)
QUOTE
Good thing we have you internet detectives figuring this stuff out before the government puts us all in FEMA camps using those 4600 rounds of 30-30 ammo.
Good god Liberal, I was just asking what the phrase "these are for a government gun" meant because it's such an odd thing to see on a federal solicitation.
SB:
QUOTE
Such a tool.
I agree. He's a tool by both definitions of it. And he doesn't even realize it!
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 28 2013,9:40 am
You got it all figured out now, so why don't you load up your ammo and freeze dried food and go crawl in a hole. We'll let you know when it's safe to come out.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 28 2013,10:09 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 28 2013,9:40 am)
QUOTE
You got it all figured out now, so why don't you load up your ammo and freeze dried food and go crawl in a hole. We'll let you know when it's safe to come out.
No, you little lock-step Obamunist, we are far from figuring it all out. But unlike you, we're not afraid to ask questions.
What are you, anyway? Some reincarnated Schutzstaffel oberleutnant?
Stop with the partisan kookery, already. Everyone here knows that if this were happening under a republican President's watch, you'd be all wound up about it.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 28 2013,12:17 pm
Partisan? If that were true I wouldn't call you Uncle Nutsy for spewing your "Bush did 9-11" crap.You kooks are probably right so you should head for your bunkers before the DHS shows up to shoot you with those 5 billion rounds they have stocked up on.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 28 2013,1:11 pm
Liberal, aren't you curious why you are the only person calling us kooks anymore?I know this is long, but I really hope people read the information.
This should probably be under a different topic, but:
All the documents come from official U.S. government websites.
Food- and waterborne diseases have the greatest
potential for outbreaks in the civilian and military
population over the next 30 to 60 days.
Increased incidence of diseases will be attributable to
degradation of normal preventive medicine, waste disposal,
water purification/distribution, electricity, and decreased
ability to control disease outbreaks.
(gives a list of expected diseases and illnesses)
3. VECTORBORNE DISEASES: Generally, vectorborne diseases are
more of a long term problem, with increased transmission occurring after 60
days. However, increased incidence can be expected, especially
in a prolonged military campaign.
< http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declass...91.html >
------
This from U.S. government National Institute of Health:
A formerly classified US document, 'Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities,' provides evidence that ill health was knowingly induced in the population of Iraq through the ruination of that country's water purification system. We believe that the uncovering of this document should stimulate the public health community to clarify principles of public health ethics and to formulate statements giving voice to these principles. We propose here two statements, one dealing with the broad issue of public health ethics and international relations, and one dealing specifically with public health ethics and water purification.
< http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15260175 >
--------
3. FAILING TO SECURE SUPPLIES WILL RESULT IN A SHORTAGE OF
PURE DRINKING WATER FOR MUCH OF THE POPULATION. THIS COULD LEAD
TO INCREASED INCIDENCES, IF NOT EPIDEMICS, OF DISEASE AND TO
CERTAIN PURE-WATER-DEPENDENT INDUSTRIES BECOMING INCAPACITATED,
INCLUDING PETRO CHEMICALS, FERTILIZERS, PETROLEUM REFINING,
ELECTRONICS,PHARMACEUTICALS, FOOD PROCESSING, TEXTILES, CONCRETE
CONSTRUCTION,AND THERMAL POWERPLANTS.
FULL DEGRADATION OF THE WATER TREATMENT SYSTEM PROBABLY WILL TAKE AT LEAST ANOTHER 6 MONTHS.
< http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declass...91.html >
------------------------
assessment is that major disease outbreaks
currently have not occurred in Baghdad or Basrah. For severe
outbreaks to develop, a protracted war or more extensive
collateral damage would have to occur.
However, conditions are favorable for communicable disease
outbreaks, particularly in major urban areas affected by
coalition bombing. Data necessary for determining expected
numbers and rates of cases are not available, and any estimate
would be totally unreliable.
< http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declass...0p.html >
---------
HOWEVER, CONDITIONS IN BAGHDAD REMAIN FAVORABLE FOR
COMMUNICABLE DISEASE OUTBREAKS; THE DELAYED RESTORATION OF PUBLIC
HEALTH SERVICES AND APPROACHING WARMER TEMPERATURES WILL INCREASE
THE LIKELIHOOD OF SIGNIFICANT DISEASE OUTBREAKS. ADDITIONALLY,
CIVIL DISTURBANCES COULD FURTHER DELAY INFRASTRUCTURE REPAIRS.
< http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declass...91.html >
-------------
SUMMARY: CHOLERA AND MEASLES HAVE EMERGED AT REFUGEE CAMPS.
FURTHER INFECTIOUS DISEASES WILL SPREAD DUE TO INADEQUATE WATER
TREATMENT AND POOR SANITATION.
TEXT: 1. THE MAIN CAUSES OF INFECTIOUS
DISEASES, PARTICULARLY DIARRHEA, DYSENTERY AND UPPER
RESPIRATORY PROBLEMS, ARE POOR SANITATION AND UNCLEAN
WATER. THESE DISEASES PRIMARILY AFFLICT THE OLD AND
YOUNG CHILDREN. ALTHOUGH THE EXACT PERCENTAGE OF
INFECTIOUS DISEASES IS UNKNOWN FOR EACH CAMP,
[ (b)(1) sec 1.3(a)(4) ] THAT AT LEAST EIGHTY PERCENT OF
THE POPULATION OF CUKURCA HAS DIARRHEA.
< http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declass...1z.html >
-----------
Heavily redacted document:
MORTALITY DATA COLLECTED BETWEEN 1990 AND 1991 SHOWED THAT CHOLERA
AND TYPHOID HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ENDEMIC TO IRAQ AND THERE HAD BEEN
REPORTS OF CASES IN BAGHDAD AND BASRAH. FOR THE FIRST TIME,
HOWEVER, KVASHIORKOR HAD BEEN OBSERVED IN IRAQ, ALONG WITH
EVIDENCE OF PROTEIN DEFICIENCY. [ (b)(1) sec 1.3(a)(4) ] FELT
THAT TYPHOID WAS A PROBLEM, BUT GASTROENTERITIS WAS KILLING
CHILDREN. THEY STATED THAT IN THE SOUTH, 80 PERCENT OF THE DEATHS
WERE CHILDREN (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF AL AMARAH, WHERE 60 PERCENT
OF DEATHS WERE
CHILDREN). THEY ALSO NOTED THAT IN THE REFUGEE CAMPS IN THE
SOUTH, 50 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION WERE CHILDREN AND 30% WERE
WOMEN. THEIR PRIMARY CONCERN, HOWEVER, WAS THAT THE COMING WARM
WEATHER AND POTENTIAL BACTERIAL GROWTH IN THE WATER WOULD
ACCELERATE THE SPREAD OF DISEASE.
< http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declass...1r.html >
-------------------
The requests have so far been met by demands that Iraq be more forthcoming about its unconventional weapons stocks and development programs.
U.S. Ambassador Thomas R. Pickering said at the United Nations on Wednesday that U.N. experts currently in Iraq would determine if Iraq needs more humanitarian aid.
Asked about easing U.N. sanctions, he said the Security Council would take no action until it has Iraq's full compliance in eliminating weapons of mass destruction and in operating a U.N. compensation fund for victims of its invasion of Kuwait.
< http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1991...2668a44 >
-------
The top UN person put in charge of the OIl For Food Program quit in disgust after what he saw had happened to the Iraq people. The man who replaced him also quit in disgust. They've done a lot of talking about these things as much as they can, to make people aware of what happened, but they don't get much mention out in the open in America. Both of them had worked for the U.N. for almost 40 years.
Whistleblowers are finally getting air time exposing the Bush administration lies that started the Iraq war (which most of the rest of the world had already known about and calling the Bush administration and British Prime Minster Tony Blair war criminals for lying and illegaly invading Iraq and for using torture.)
What do you think will happen once it becomes more well known how the US kept pushing for the strict sanctions knowing full well how badly it would hurt innocent citizens in Iraq? And how it was supplying Hussein with WMD's while he was "convenient", and that all of this goes as far back as Bush #1 and even Reagan.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 28 2013,1:17 pm
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 28 2013,8:49 am)
QUOTE
30-30 uses a .308 bullet. The 30-30 cartridge was developed over a hundred years ago and uses a blunt nosed bullet so that it can be used in a tubular magazine.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but even though all are .30 cal, I believe the 30-06 and .308 can be fired in the same gun.
The 30-30 was a lot lighter round.The 30-06 was the 30 cal fired through the M-1 Garand.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 28 2013,4:00 pm
Nope, Mr. Dog, 30-30 is a rimmed cartridge. I don't think i'd try running it through a .308 rifle.
Posted by MADDOG on Mar. 28 2013,5:28 pm
The tin foils in Washington must be getting ready for the bunkers too.< full SHTF Executive Order >
QUOTE
Sec. 104. Implementation. (a) The National Security Council and Homeland
Security Council, in conjunction with the National Economic Council, shall
serve as the integrated policymaking forum for consideration and formulation
of national defense resource preparedness policy and shall make recommendations
to the President on the use of authorities under the Act.
(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall:
(1) advise the President on issues of national defense resource preparedness
and on the use of the authorities and functions delegated by this order;
(2) provide for the central coordination of the plans and programs incident
to authorities and functions delegated under this order, and provide guidance
to agencies assigned functions under this order, developed in consultation
with such agencies; and
(3) report to the President periodically concerning all program activities
conducted pursuant to this order.
© The Defense Production Act Committee, described in section 701 of
this order, shall:
(1) in a manner consistent with section 2(b) of the Act, 50 U.S.C. App.
2062(b), advise the President through the Assistant to the President and
National Security Advisor, the Assistant to the President for Homeland
Security and Counterterrorism, and the Assistant to the President for Economic
Policy on the effective use of the authorities under the Act; and
(2) prepare and coordinate an annual report to the Congress pursuant
to section 722(d) of the Act, 50 U.S.C. App. 2171(d).
(d) The Secretary of Commerce, in cooperation with the Secretary of
Defense, the Secretary of Homeland Security, and other agencies, shall:
(1) analyze potential effects of national emergencies on actual production
capability, taking into account the entire production system, including
shortages of resources, and develop recommended preparedness measures
to strengthen capabilities for production increases in national emergencies;
and
(2) perform industry analyses to assess capabilities of the industrial base
to support the national defense, and develop policy recommendations
to improve the international competitiveness of specific domestic industries
and their abilities to meet national defense program needs.
Security Council, in conjunction with the National Economic Council, shall
serve as the integrated policymaking forum for consideration and formulation
of national defense resource preparedness policy and shall make recommendations
to the President on the use of authorities under the Act.
(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall:
(1) advise the President on issues of national defense resource preparedness
and on the use of the authorities and functions delegated by this order;
(2) provide for the central coordination of the plans and programs incident
to authorities and functions delegated under this order, and provide guidance
to agencies assigned functions under this order, developed in consultation
with such agencies; and
(3) report to the President periodically concerning all program activities
conducted pursuant to this order.
© The Defense Production Act Committee, described in section 701 of
this order, shall:
(1) in a manner consistent with section 2(b) of the Act, 50 U.S.C. App.
2062(b), advise the President through the Assistant to the President and
National Security Advisor, the Assistant to the President for Homeland
Security and Counterterrorism, and the Assistant to the President for Economic
Policy on the effective use of the authorities under the Act; and
(2) prepare and coordinate an annual report to the Congress pursuant
to section 722(d) of the Act, 50 U.S.C. App. 2171(d).
(d) The Secretary of Commerce, in cooperation with the Secretary of
Defense, the Secretary of Homeland Security, and other agencies, shall:
(1) analyze potential effects of national emergencies on actual production
capability, taking into account the entire production system, including
shortages of resources, and develop recommended preparedness measures
to strengthen capabilities for production increases in national emergencies;
and
(2) perform industry analyses to assess capabilities of the industrial base
to support the national defense, and develop policy recommendations
to improve the international competitiveness of specific domestic industries
and their abilities to meet national defense program needs.
QUOTE
Sec. 201. Priorities and Allocations Authorities. (a)
(1) the Secretary of Agriculture with respect to food resources, food resource facilities, livestock resources, veterinary resources, plant health resources, and the domestic distribution of farm equipment and commercial fertilizer;
(2) the Secretary of Energy with respect to all forms of energy;
(3) the Secretary of Health and Human Services with respect to health resources;
(4) the Secretary of Transportation with respect to all forms of civil transportation;
(5) the Secretary of Defense with respect to water resources; and
(6) the Secretary of Commerce with respect to all other materials, services, and facilities, including construction materials.
(b) The Secretary of each agency delegated authority under subsection (a) of this section (resource departments) shall plan for and issue regulations to prioritize and allocate resources and establish standards and procedures by which the authority shall be used to promote the national defense, under both emergency and non-emergency conditions.
(1) the Secretary of Agriculture with respect to food resources, food resource facilities, livestock resources, veterinary resources, plant health resources, and the domestic distribution of farm equipment and commercial fertilizer;
(2) the Secretary of Energy with respect to all forms of energy;
(3) the Secretary of Health and Human Services with respect to health resources;
(4) the Secretary of Transportation with respect to all forms of civil transportation;
(5) the Secretary of Defense with respect to water resources; and
(6) the Secretary of Commerce with respect to all other materials, services, and facilities, including construction materials.
(b) The Secretary of each agency delegated authority under subsection (a) of this section (resource departments) shall plan for and issue regulations to prioritize and allocate resources and establish standards and procedures by which the authority shall be used to promote the national defense, under both emergency and non-emergency conditions.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 28 2013,8:15 pm
As usual you're right on top of the year old news. Should get the resident crazy wound up though, if she isn't hiding in a hole yet.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 29 2013,4:39 am
I was in Cabelas last night, they actually had .22 ammo, limit of one box.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 29 2013,8:26 am
(Self-Banished @ Mar. 29 2013,4:39 am)
QUOTE
I was in Cabelas last night, they actually had .22 ammo, limit of one box.
Was it just the .22 that had a limit? Since I don't know ammunition, what is it about the .22 ammo being in short supply that surprises you?
MADDOG:
QUOTE
The tin foils in Washington must be getting ready for the bunkers too.
Well, if gun control has been one of their primary objectives, I'd say they have failed miserably lol.
liberal:
QUOTE
As usual you're right on top of the year old news. Should get the resident crazy wound up though, if she isn't hiding in a hole yet.
Hey liberal, you should put some sort of notice telling them that they can only freely discuss anything you feel is appropriate, and they can only discuss topics in the way you feel is appropriate.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 29 2013,8:40 am
^ morning Roz, .22 ammo surprises me because it's the most used and produced round in the world, seems like everyone has a .22 rifle. Except maybe some of the pantywaist Libs on this site.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 29 2013,1:38 pm
(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 29 2013,8:26 am)
QUOTE
Hey liberal, you should put some sort of notice telling them that they can only freely discuss anything you feel is appropriate, and they can only discuss topics in the way you feel is appropriate.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 29 2013,5:08 pm
You poor kooks don't like people calling out your BS conspiracy theories? You could easily avoid that by not posting your conspiracy crap, but then you wouldn't get to whine about being victimized.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 29 2013,9:11 pm
^ actually the only one whining is you. You've been doing that alot lately, are you alright? We do care.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 29 2013,10:35 pm
He's probably upset that Obama isn't the Hope and Change he promised...
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 29 2013,10:53 pm
Whining? According to the nut, I'm a name calling bully. Sort of hard to be both.QUOTE
He's probably upset that Obama isn't the Hope and Change he promised...
Yesterday you called me a lock step Obama supporter, and today I'm upset about Obama's policies?
Obama and the Democrats have taken care of every issue that's important to me, and I'm represented by Democrats from State Rep to President, what could I possibly have to be upset about politically?
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 30 2013,5:25 am
liberal:QUOTE
You poor kooks don't like people calling out your BS conspiracy theories? You could easily avoid that by not posting your conspiracy crap, but then you wouldn't get to whine about being victimized.
It's BS because YOU say it is?
liberal:
QUOTE
Obama and the Democrats have taken care of every issue that's important to me, and I'm represented by Democrats from State Rep to President, what could I possibly have to be upset about politically?
How wonderful for you that you have nothing to be upset about politically. But maybe some of us in the forum do have reasons to be upset about how this country is being run, and do have concerns about where this country might be heading.
Maybe some of us do have a problem with thousands of our military being sent to die in BS wars started by lies. Fighting against people our own government helped to create in the first place.
Maybe some of us do have a problem with the fact that our government is responsible for over one million innocent people's deaths in just one country alone.
Maybe some of us don't like the fact that this corruption and deception started several administrations ago and has been kept up by the current one.
Some of us in the forum might have a problem with all of the current administrations very unamerican policies being implemented, and their evasion to being honest with us about these policies and about some of the "operations" they have conducted in the last few years.
And maybe, since this is a discussion forum afterall, some of us can be allowed to discuss things that are happening, and have been happening, that we might just have a problem with, since the mainstream national news, whose job is supposed to be to keep us informed, and be a check/balance on what the government is up to, has not been doing its job for far too long.
You should just rename the forum to "liberal's happy about everything so questioning authority is not allowed".
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 30 2013,5:44 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 29 2013,10:53 pm)
QUOTE
Obama and the Democrats have taken care of every issue that's important to me, and I'm represented by Democrats from State Rep to President, what could I possibly have to be upset about politically?
The fact that our economy is failing miserably, unenployment is a 7.7%, economic gains at near recession levels, a nationalized health care program that's most likely give us less and cost us an arm and a leg, a 17 trillion dollar debt (but President Bastard doesn't feel that's a problem) Project gun walker, Bengazi, etc. etc. etc.
I suppose you should have a warm fuzzy feeling, then why so cranky?
Have a super sparkly day.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 30 2013,6:03 am
^ too damn funny.Good morning SB. I've been checking into .22 ammunition. Holymoly you weren't kidding. There is a crazy amount of that ammo made. I checked out a few forums that have been talking about having problems finding .22. A lot of the forum posts date back to 2006.
As far back as 2006, just one company alone (CCI) was pumping out 4 million rounds of .22 a day. There's alot of ammunition out there somewhere.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 30 2013,7:29 am
Like everyone else I rarely read much of the nut's posts but after reading most of that last one I'm left wondering why the nut hasn't moved into her bunker yet. If she doesn't have one maybe we could dig her a hole to hide in until the sky has finished falling.QUOTE
And maybe, since this is a discussion forum afterall, some of us can be allowed to discuss things that are happening, and have been happening, that we might just have a problem with, since the mainstream national news, whose job is supposed to be to keep us informed, and be a check/balance on what the government is up to, has not been doing its job for far too long.
Like I said if you post BS conspiracy theories from your crazy ass conspiracy theories sites then you can expect to be ridiculed. If you don't like it then post your moronic comments to the infowars forum and leave the sane people out of your delusions.
Shouldn't you still be working on proving the government drugged the Aurora shooter, or staged Sandy Hook? Whatever happened to your 9-11 investigation or your Occupy "movement"? Or how about finishing working on your conspiracy theory on how GM is going to corner the Minnesota car market with their advanced Daytime Running Light technology?
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 30 2013,8:16 am
liberal:QUOTE
Like everyone else I rarely read much of the nut's posts
Yeah, if you say so.
liberal:
QUOTE
I'm left wondering why the nut hasn't moved into her bunker yet. If she doesn't have one maybe we could dig her a hole to hide in until the sky has finished falling.
FYI, I have a very happy life and don't actually worry or even think much about the problems we all face. I just know that the only way to fix these problems is for everyone else to know about them (which I think most people already do) and face them instead of ignoring them.
liberal:
QUOTE
Like I said if you post BS conspiracy theories from your crazy ass conspiracy theories sites then you can expect to be ridiculed.
Only one problem with that: I only post information from government and mainstream news sources.
liberal:
QUOTE
Shouldn't you still be working on proving the government drugged the Aurora shooter,
Oh yeah, about that. Thanks for reminding me:
QUOTE
Sgt. Fyles testified that police they found four gas masks, although only two belonged to Holmes.
< http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_22339300?source=pkg >
< http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_22339300?source=pkg >
Nothing suspicious about that at all. No reason to think there might have possibly been more than the one shooter.
You are a total waste of time liberal. And you make it almost impossible for people to discuss things and work together to try and figure out just exactly what kind of mess we are in.
____
Does anyone know how many ammunition manufacturing companies there are in the U.S.? Anyone know how many ammo companies ATK owns?
QUOTE
2010:
Alliant Techsystems (ATK), parent of CCI, Alliant Powder, RCBS and other companies,
Alliant Techsystems (ATK), parent of CCI, Alliant Powder, RCBS and other companies,
< http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/atk/ >
"Other companies". It's difficult to nail that down.
This is ATK's filing with the SEC in 2006, so far I haven't had the time to work on locating any more recent than that.
The approximate percentage breakdown of all fiscal 2006 sales to various categories of customers was as follows:
Sales to:
U.S. Army : 29%
U.S. Air Force: 16%
NASA: 14%
U.S. Navy: 12%
Other U.S. Government Customers: 8%
Commercial and foreign customers: 21%
Foreign customers make up 7% of that 21
U.S. citizens make up about 14% of ATK sales as of 2006
< http://www.sec.gov/Archive...9d1.htm >
I had no idea this company was so big and had so many things going on.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 30 2013,8:47 am
QUOTE
Nothing suspicious about that at all. No reason to think there might have possibly been more than the one shooter.
It's pretty common to see people wearing costumes to movie openings.
QUOTE
Only one problem with that: I only post information from government and mainstream news sources.
You post your conspiracy crap all the time and you sure are not getting that conspiracy theory crap from mainstream media or the government. Where was the government source on your GM/Mankato/executive compensation/running lights conspiracy?
Not to mention in the next part of your post you posted information from accurateshooter.com
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 30 2013,10:51 am
Well, here's a bigger list of what ATK owns. No idea if it's a complete list. Why is it so difficult to find out?ATK Sporting, headquartered in Anoka, MN, is a leading technology developer and supplier of ammunition for law enforcement, military and sporting applications; a manufacturer of optics, reloading gear and sport shooting accessories; and a leading producer of tactical accessories. The company serves sport shooting enthusiasts, law enforcement professionals, military and tactical markets worldwide. The group’s products include some of the most widely known and respected brands in the industry, including Federal Premium, CCI, Speer, RCBS, Alliant Powder, Champion, Weaver, Eagle Industries, and BLACKHAWK!.
Other Brands
Buck Commander
Estate Cartridge
Blazer Ammunition
Redfield Mounts
Simmons Mounts
< http://outdoorwriters.atk.com/our_company.aspx >
----------------------
Goodgod you are such a waste of time liberal.
Yeah, most of the things I find out about come from alternative media, (what you call "conspiracy kook sites"). - That just shows how crap a job our mainstream national news does of informing us of things. And we fight about which mainstream news is more full of BS and which are trustworthy. When none of them do their job of telling us what is going on.
Found out about our government supporting Saddam and supplying him with WMD's from alternative news. Found the proof in government documents on government websites.
Found out about our government planning for the ruination of Iraq's water/sewer facilities leading to an ungodly amount of innocent peoples' deaths, from alternative news. Found the proof of it in government documents on government websites.
Found out about the government giving itself the power of indefinitely detaining any American citizen it sees as a threat, stripping the citizen of all rights and not having to show proof of any wrong-doing from alternative news. Found out about a large group of people suing the Obama administration over it and the judge who said it was unconstitutional but because of the web of BS that has been accumulating from the Executive branch over the years, there's nothing that can apparently be done to stop it, from alternative news.
It seems pretty clear that alot of us in the forum realize how much crap this country is in and are trying to share information and discuss these things. And I think it's quite clear to most of us that YOU are a colossal waste of time and energy, and your attempts at trying to save face and derail discussions are starting to get annoying.
So how about you stick to your politicians and mainstream news, and leave the rest of us to discuss the things that are actually going on, in peace.
Please.
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 30 2013,12:10 pm
(Liberal @ Mar. 30 2013,8:47 am)
QUOTE
Not to mention in the next part of your post you posted information from accurateshooter.com
She pulled imformation from a shooters tech site and you're calling it stupid???
I suppose it should have come from snopes
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 30 2013,1:10 pm
QUOTE
She pulled imformation from a shooters tech site and you're calling it stupid???
Try to keep up. I made no comment on the content, I was pointing out that the nut claimed to only post mainstream media or government information, and last I checked a shooters tech site is neither of those.
QUOTE
It seems pretty clear that alot of us in the forum realize how much crap this country is in and are trying to share information and discuss these things.
If you want to discuss these things without getting ridiculed then don't post your conspiracy crap here. Because every time you post your conspiracy crap I'll be right there to make fun of you and point out how mentally ill you are.
I still didn't get an answer on where you got your info on the GM/Mankato/executive compensation/running lights conspiracy where GM was going to corner the MN car market with their advanced running lights program?
Posted by Self-Banished on Mar. 30 2013,1:52 pm
(Liberal @ Mar. 30 2013,1:10 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
She pulled imformation from a shooters tech site and you're calling it stupid???
Try to keep up. I made no comment on the content, I was pointing out that the nut claimed to only post mainstream media or government information, and last I checked a shooters tech site is neither of those.
Oh but I an keeping up, as it reads you're implying that the site is a nutjob site.
Pay attension to what you post.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 30 2013,2:08 pm
I quoted the line I was responding to for the ones that have trouble keeping up, and it didn't seem to help you. What does that tell you?I also made no commentary on the site or the link. How could it read like I was calling it stupid?
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 30 2013,3:00 pm
Goodgod. Ok, another huge waste of time and energy. Yes, I said "I only post information from government and mainstream news sources."
What I should have said is "I rarely post information in the forum that doesn't come from government or mainstream news sources."
Which is what I previously said to that zombiehunter guy in another topic. That's probably not exactly word for word what I said either, but it's pretty close. I think it was in the Obama 2016 topic in misc. if you want to look it up and see if you can pick it apart in any way.
This is another way you derail conversations. You get some people so flustered that what they say doesn't come out the way they'd like it to. I am one of those people. Excuse me for being human. For godsakes.
It's too bad you are not as critical of the unconstitutional and downright evil acts of our government, and the lies they tell us, as you are about every little word that comes out of mine, and other peoples' mouths.
I am starting to feel sorry for you. Your ego obviously isn't allowing you to see how ridiculous you have become.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 30 2013,5:28 pm
QUOTE
What I should have said is "I rarely post information in the forum that doesn't come from government or mainstream news sources."
No, you give your chicken little opinion on what something means then you usually post a link to something that is common knowledge.
Your Iraq sanctions conspiracy is a perfect example. Everyone that wasn't living in a hole at that time knows that the UN sanctions caused death and illness. That's why the oil for food program was started. Do you have a better way to get a rogue regime to play well with others?
Why does this have you all wound up and you don't seem to care about North Koreans starving right now because of sanctions? Do we have to wait 10 years for you to figure it out and then tell us North Korean sanctions were a conspiracy that we're just not smart enough to see?
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Mar. 30 2013,8:41 pm
liberal:QUOTE
Your Iraq sanctions conspiracy is a perfect example. Everyone that wasn't living in a hole at that time knows that the UN sanctions caused death and illness.
Really? You knew it was the water facilities that had been destroyed and sanctions that kept the people from having safe water that killed so many people?
I thought you didn't get your news from "conspiracy sites", because the mainstream national news sure didn't inform us of that. They only said the deaths were a result of "sanctions". As if it was an unintended consequence of the sanctions. They never told us our government planned for those deaths by knowingly destroying safe water and sewage capabilities.
liberal:
QUOTE
That's why the oil for food program was started.
The BS program that was implemented to try and appease all the people screaming about all the innocent citizens of Iraq dying. The BS program that did NOTHING to fix the biggest cause of death, which was their water/sewer problems causing disease. The BS program which resulted in the first two top guys quitting after almost 40 years in the UN, because they were not able to get sanctions lessened to make sure the people had safe water. The U.S. government KNOWINGLY did not allow for innocent citizens to have safe water. And THAT is what the news never told us.
liberal:
QUOTE
Do you have a better way to get a rogue regime to play well with others?
I can't believe you even said that.
Well, it sure wouldn't be to kill more people than the tyrant we were trying to get rid of. The tyrant we supplied with the WMD's he supposedly used to kill fewer people than we did.
By the way, that is just one of the rules we have been breaking for decades, that the Geneva Convention forbids.
2. It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.
You are unbelievably ridiculous, and I think you are the only person in the forum that doesn't realize it.
Posted by Liberal on Mar. 30 2013,9:27 pm
QUOTE
Really? You knew it was the water facilities that had been destroyed and sanctions that kept the people from having safe water that killed so many people?
High rates of malnutrition, lack of medical supplies, and diseases from lack of clean water were reported during sanctions. [26]
< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq >
QUOTE
I thought you didn't get your news from "conspiracy sites", because the mainstream national news sure didn't inform us of that.
The previous wiki quote references a WHO paper from 2000 and I heard about the report many times watching/reading mainstream media. I'm pretty sure anyone that wasn't living in a hole back then knew about the deaths caused by the sanctions.
QUOTE
I can't believe you even said that.
Well, it sure wouldn't be to kill more people than the tyrant we were trying to get rid of. The tyrant we supplied with the WMD's he supposedly used to kill fewer people than we did.
So you don't have a better answer than sanctions? Apparently you'd rather if we skipped the sanctions and went straight to military action?
QUOTE
You are unbelievably ridiculous, and I think you are the only person in the forum that doesn't realize it.
I hate to break it to you but I've gotten more phone calls and PM's making fun of you than any user since Denovo. The general consensus seems to be that you're a few fries short of a Happy Meal.
Posted by Botto 82 on Mar. 31 2013,3:37 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 30 2013,1:10 pm)
QUOTE
I was pointing out that the nut claimed to only post mainstream media or government information, and last I checked a shooters tech site is neither of those.
And I thought you were trying to rise above the whole notion of ad hominem attacks.
Do you really want to be the forum's version of O'Reilly?
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 01 2013,10:11 am
^You speak of starvation and malnutrition.What if the starvation started here in the U.S? What if grocerers decided to no longer accept payment from SNAP or WIC because the government was broke and their vouchers/cards were worthless?
Obama has a record 47M people on assistance now.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 01 2013,10:43 am
liberal:QUOTE
The previous wiki quote references a WHO paper from 2000 and I heard about the report many times watching/reading mainstream media. I'm pretty sure anyone that wasn't living in a hole back then knew about the deaths caused by the sanctions.
Yes, "sanctions". The mainstream media did no reporting of specifically how damaging the inability to treat water was to the population. It did no reporting of the declassified documents discovered showing how the government knew and planned in advance how horrible it would be for the Iraqi people.
Your wiki page mentioned more studies than just the WHO one in 2000. But it didn't include all the studies that had been done, starting as far back as 1991.
The wiki page also quotes the two UN people who quit in disgust. One equating the sanctions with "genocide". The one who replaced him calling it "a true human tragedy". It also mentions that the UN Chief for the World Food Program also quit in protest of the sanctions.
A congressman's report to Congress and the Bush administration:
QUOTE
Dominique Dufour, the head of a 90-member team sent here by the International Committee of the Red Cross, said, `I am absolutely sure that no Pentagon planner calculated the impact bombing the electrical plants would have on pure drinking water supplies for weeks to come, and the snow-ball effect of this on public health.'
Except they did know what kind of hell they were unleashing on innocent civilians.
His statement continued:
QUOTE
We cannot escape this. Fate, destiny cannot be escaped. It is the result of actions in which we are exalting in victory celebrations that now have lasted over 2 1/2 times the length of the entire war. In fact, the President has asked the United Nations to continue to reinforce the sanctions which are killing the children of Iraq.
Now, we are speaking of children, babies, under age 5, dying at the rate of 500 to 1,000 a day. We cannot wait on the President until he is embarrassed into taking humanitarian action.
A Harvard University study team just completed the first comprehensive survey of public health in postwar Iraq, and they project that at least 17,000 Iraqi children under 5 years of age will die in this coming year from the delayed effects of the Persian Gulf crisis--or war--whatever one wants to call it. This is in addition to the tens of thousands of children who have already died in Iraq in recent months. Widespread and severe malnutrition exists in Iraq. Cholera, typhoid, gastroenteritis are epidemic throughout this country.
Now, we are speaking of children, babies, under age 5, dying at the rate of 500 to 1,000 a day. We cannot wait on the President until he is embarrassed into taking humanitarian action.
A Harvard University study team just completed the first comprehensive survey of public health in postwar Iraq, and they project that at least 17,000 Iraqi children under 5 years of age will die in this coming year from the delayed effects of the Persian Gulf crisis--or war--whatever one wants to call it. This is in addition to the tens of thousands of children who have already died in Iraq in recent months. Widespread and severe malnutrition exists in Iraq. Cholera, typhoid, gastroenteritis are epidemic throughout this country.
He quotes a Washington Post article:
QUOTE
The definition of innocents gets to be a little bit unclear,' said a senior Air Force officer, noting that many Iraqis supported the invasion of Kuwait. `They do live there, and ultimately the people have some control over what goes on in their country.'
QUOTE
The Harvard team, for example, reported last month that the lack of electrical power, fuel and key transportation links in Iraq now has led to acute malnutrition and `epidemic' levels of cholera and typhoid. In an estimate not substantively disputed by the Pentagon, the team projected that `at least 170,000 children under five years of age will die in the coming year from the delayed effects' of the bombing.
< http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r102:34:./temp/~r102SWGNUl:e0: >
Apparently there's a time limit for viewing records so if that link doesn't work go to this one:
< http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin...0624%29 >
and click the link for: 34 . A CALL TO LIFT ECONOMIC SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ
And now it's known that those diseases and others were an expected outcome of destroying safe sources of water.
I don't know how any one of us can think that what we've done to those innocent people is justifiable in any way. Especially with the governments' own documents showing how we were supplying Iraq with wmd's for years prior in the first place.
I don't know how any one of us can overlook what our government is doing right here in our own country. Harassing, abusing and arresting reporters, journalists and whistle-blowers at a significantly increasing rate.
Giving themselves unprecedented powers which everyone looking into them says are unconstitutional, but which, to sum up the governments' response:
"It's constitutional because we say it is."
We have a huge amount of problems in our country, and sticking our heads in the sand pretending to not see them, or just wishing the problems away isn't going to do anything except make things worse for our children and grandchildren.
Things are not going to get better on their own, and anyone who isn't lying to themselves knows that.
QUOTE
I hate to break it to you but I've gotten more phone calls and PM's making fun of you than any user since Denovo. The general consensus seems to be that you're a few fries short of a Happy Meal.
Since when do people in the forum have a problem with speaking their minds out in the open? Forgive me if I don't believe you. I happen to think most of the people in the U.S. are starting to realize what is going on, and they want to find out exactly what the truth is. I think most are realizing how corrupt and full of crap our government is, and are beginning to come to terms with just how much of a mess we are in. Most Americans are sick of being lied to and used.
QUOTE
In America truth is offensive. If you tell the truth, you are offensive.
-
Over the past 35 years I have learned this lesson as a columnist. If you tell readers
what is really going on, they want to know why you can’t be positive. Why are you telling
us that there are bad happenings that can’t be remedied? Don’t you know that God
gave Americans the power to fix all wrongs? What are you? Some kind of idiot, an anti-American, a pinko-liberal-commie? If you hate America so much, why don’t you move to Cuba, Iran or China (or to wherever the current bogyman is located)?
-
Insouciant americans are undisturbed that alleged terrorists are tortured, held indefinitely in prison without due process, and executed on the whim of some executive branch official without due process of law.
Most americans go along with unaccountable murder, torture, and detention without evidence, which proclaims their gullibility to the entire world. There has never in history been a population as unaware as americans. The world is amazed that an insouciant people became, if only for a short time, a superpower.
The world needs intelligence and leadership in order to avoid catastrophe, but america can provide neither intelligence nor leadership. America is a lost land where nuclear weapons are in the hands of those who are concerned only with their own power. Washington is the enemy of the entire world and encompasses the largest concentration of evil on the planet.
Where is the good to rise up against the evil?
< http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/[/QUOTE] >
And the quote mentioned in the Washington Post article was so relevant I'm going to post it again:
QUOTE
The definition of innocents gets to be a little bit unclear,' said a senior Air Force officer, noting that many Iraqis supported the invasion of Kuwait. `They do live there, and ultimately the people have some control over what goes on in their country.'
Posted by Liberal on Apr. 01 2013,1:27 pm
QUOTE
Since when do people in the forum have a problem with speaking their minds out in the open? Forgive me if I don't believe you. I happen to think most of the people in the U.S. are starting to realize what is going on, and they want to find out exactly what the truth is. I think most are realizing how corrupt and full of crap our government is, and are beginning to come to terms with just how much of a mess we are in.
Believe what you want but it's pretty obvious what people think based on the number of responses to your crazy posts. I'd be willing to bet that not more than a half dozen people read that long winded garbage you just posted and nobody will respond to it.
Here's a link to a psychic that wrote a LTE to the LA Times in 2001 talking about dead children in Iraq because of sanctions. We know he must be a psychic because the kook says people didn't know about the deaths until she found out about it on the kookosphere
< http://articles.latimes.com/2001/may/28/local/me-350 >
Posted by Liberal on Apr. 01 2013,1:49 pm
QUOTE
It did no reporting of the declassified documents discovered showing how the government knew and planned in advance how horrible it would be for the Iraqi people.
What declassified report?
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 02 2013,10:50 am
Me:QUOTE
Really? You knew it was the water facilities that had been destroyed and sanctions that kept the people from having safe water that killed so many people?
I thought you didn't get your news from "conspiracy sites", because the mainstream national news sure didn't inform us of that. They only said the deaths were a result of "sanctions". As if it was an unintended consequence of the sanctions. They never told us our government planned for those deaths by knowingly destroying safe water and sewage capabilities.
I thought you didn't get your news from "conspiracy sites", because the mainstream national news sure didn't inform us of that. They only said the deaths were a result of "sanctions". As if it was an unintended consequence of the sanctions. They never told us our government planned for those deaths by knowingly destroying safe water and sewage capabilities.
liberal:
QUOTE
Your Iraq sanctions conspiracy is a perfect example. Everyone that wasn't living in a hole at that time knows that the UN sanctions caused death and illness. That's why the oil for food program was started. Do you have a better way to get a rogue regime to play well with others?
Me:
QUOTE
The BS program that was implemented to try and appease all the people screaming about all the innocent citizens of Iraq dying. The BS program that did NOTHING to fix the biggest cause of death, which was their water/sewer problems causing disease. The BS program which resulted in the first two top guys quitting after almost 40 years in the UN, because they were not able to get sanctions lessened to make sure the people had safe water. The U.S. government KNOWINGLY did not allow for innocent citizens to have safe water. And THAT is what the news never told us.
liberal:
QUOTE
The previous wiki quote references a WHO paper from 2000 and I heard about the report many times watching/reading mainstream media. I'm pretty sure anyone that wasn't living in a hole back then knew about the deaths caused by the sanctions.
Again, no mainstream news informed us of how specifically the destruction of water/sewage and embargo of chemicals led to so many deaths of innocent citizens. All mainstream news said "sanctions" as if the deaths were an unintended consequence of all the restrictions. And no national news informed us of the declassified documents that were discovered showing how the U.S. planned for and knew the outcome of the water/sewage problems. They knew about the diseases beforehand, and knew about it during.
Me:
QUOTE
Yes, "sanctions". The mainstream media did no reporting of specifically how damaging the inability to treat water was to the population. It did no reporting of the declassified documents discovered showing how the government knew and planned in advance how horrible it would be for the Iraqi people.
liberal:
QUOTE
Here's a link to a psychic that wrote a LTE to the LA Times in 2001 talking about dead children in Iraq because of sanctions. We know he must be a psychic because the kook says people didn't know about the deaths until she found out about it on the kookosphere
I've never said the mainstream news never told us sanctions were killing people. Are you having difficulties "keeping up"? Or are you still trying to use your spin and misquote trick? After I posted the declassified documents link I did use the phrase "strict sanctions" I figured you were intelligent enough to put 2 and 2 together. But since that post I have taken great care to specify water/sewage destruction and sanctions.
liberal:
QUOTE
What declassified report?
The declassified documents in post #138, that show the U.S. knew what the outcome would be from the destruction of Iraq's water/sewage and kept pushing the UN keeping them from having safe water and sewage.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 02 2013,11:04 am
liberal, your constant attacks and derailing of discussions is complete BS. Why don't you leave people alone to actually have discussions.
Posted by Liberal on Apr. 02 2013,11:29 am
So in your kook world you should be able to post delusional crap and only people that believes your delusions can respond? If you don't like my responses then you can post on the kook sites where you don't have to worry about sane people responding to your BS.This declassified report has been online since 1996 and you think nobody in the media mentioned it?
Here's a link to google query for news stories between 1998-2001 about Iraq sanctions causing deaths because of the water treatment.
< https://www.google.com/search?...bih=644 >
Posted by Botto 82 on Apr. 02 2013,12:11 pm
(Liberal @ Mar. 29 2013,10:53 pm)
QUOTE
Obama and the Democrats have taken care of every issue that's important to me, and I'm represented by Democrats from State Rep to President, what could I possibly have to be upset about politically?
NDAA? Monsanto Protection Act? And that's just a couple from recent memory.
Either you're okay with these developments, or they haven't been widely reported on the sheeposphere...
Posted by Self-Banished on Apr. 02 2013,1:02 pm
(Botto 82 @ Apr. 02 2013,12:11 pm)
QUOTE
(Liberal @ Mar. 29 2013,10:53 pm)
QUOTE
Obama and the Democrats have taken care of every issue that's important to me, and I'm represented by Democrats from State Rep to President, what could I possibly have to be upset about politically?
NDAA? Monsanto Protection Act? And that's just a couple from recent memory.
Either you're okay with these developments, or they haven't been widely reported on the sheeposphere...
Oh come now Botto, Monsanto? NDAA? Absolutely harmless
Everything's al honky dory in Libs world right now
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 02 2013,1:19 pm
(Liberal @ Apr. 02 2013,11:29 am)
QUOTE
So in your kook world you should be able to post delusional crap and only people that believes your delusions can respond? If you don't like my responses then you can post on the kook sites where you don't have to worry about sane people responding to your BS.
This declassified report has been online since 1996 and you think nobody in the media mentioned it?
Here's a link to google query for news stories between 1998-2001 about Iraq sanctions causing deaths because of the water treatment.
< https://www.google.com/search?...bih=644 >
This declassified report has been online since 1996 and you think nobody in the media mentioned it?
Here's a link to google query for news stories between 1998-2001 about Iraq sanctions causing deaths because of the water treatment.
< https://www.google.com/search?...bih=644 >
liberal:
QUOTE
This declassified report has been online since 1996 and you think nobody in the media mentioned it?
Yep, that's what I'm saying. Look for yourself (if you haven't already)
Here's one of the interviews of the Professor who found the declassified documents:
< http://www.zcommunications.org/war-cri...as-nagy >
QUOTE
The implications of Nagy’s findings are quite serious and worthy of a thorough investigation because it suggests that the US authorities committed war crimes. However, his analysis of government documents went unreported in the trend-setting national US media, such as New York Times, Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Time, or Newsweek. It did receive some mention in the foreign press, State-level press, non-corporate independent press, and specialized publications.
liberal:
QUOTE
Here's a link to google query for news stories between 1998-2001 about Iraq sanctions causing deaths because of the water treatment.
I went through the first 10 pages from your google search link, you must not have checked out your own search very well. Other than "kook news sites" there's A few local publications and foreign news. Here's the National News coverage, and one PBS:
NY Times on Page 4. No.
Washington Post on Page 4 1998: No.
The spread of diseases associated with war damage and maintenance problems at Iraq's 210 water treatment plants also has slowed. U.N. officials say they expect the rates of serious diarrhea and other ailments to begin to drop soon under new efforts to refurbish that system, a key public health step that is also important for the country's eventual economic renewal.
(The spread rates of serious diarrhea *and other ailments* associated with *war damage and maintenance problems* at Iraq's 210 water treatment plants also has slowed. ) Doesn't mention anything about sanctions being the biggest problem for the plants. Also it mentioned malnutrition and lack of medicines earlier in the article. Malnutrition and lack of medicines also were a part of destroyed water/sewer plants. (Which was mentioned in the declassified documents)
< http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/update.htm >
PBS: Page 4 1998. Almost sorta kinda says it.
A U.N. report estimated that 420,000 children, 5,000 every month since 1991, have died because of inadequate medical care and insufficient food supplies.
The report also said that one third of all Iraqi children are malnourished and many suffer from infections.
The source of many of the illnesses and deaths is poor drinking water. Sewage treatment plants and electric power plants that keep the going were bombed during the Gulf War.
*According to the Iraqi government, the trade embargo and a shortage of money have prevented repairs.*
According to the Iraqi government= Nobody should believe what they say.
< http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june98/iraq_3-13a.html >
CBS 2009: Page 7
The Iraqis say the problem is the collapse of infrastructure: malnourished mothers bearing weak babies, immunizations down, dirty drinking water causing fatal illnesses.= Don't believe what they say.
< http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/01/10/gulfwar/main263122.shtml >
Washington Post 2000: Page 7
Nothing about Iraq water, but some dang interesting information on Cheney, oil company and other U.S. company dealings in Iraq.
< http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...dx.html >
There's a Washington Post article on page 8 titled "Firm's Iraq Deals Greater Than Cheney Has Said" which sounded interesting, but is a dead link.
You're such a waste of time and energy.
How come you never answer when someone asks you your opinion on the NDAA indefinite detention power the government has given itself?
Botto, have you seen how the politicians are distancing themselves from that Monsanto Protection Act? Either they were unaware of that rider, or didn't expect how much flack they were going to get from the public.
sheeposhere
Posted by Botto 82 on Apr. 02 2013,1:43 pm
If anyone needs help with the term "sheeposphere," here's your sign...
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 02 2013,1:46 pm
sheeposhere? 
Posted by Liberal on Apr. 02 2013,1:59 pm
So now we've gone from "no media coverage" to "well, there was some coverage but it wasn't on the front page of any article I could find"?QUOTE
Other than "kook news sites" there's A few local publications and foreign news
So are you saying the local publications were reporting on Iraq sanctions but not the national news?
Where do you think local publications get their information on international topics? Face it you are full of crap once again, everyone knew the sanctions were killing people because of lack of clean water., you kooks didn't discover anything that wasn't common knowledge back then.
QUOTE
How come you never answer when someone asks you your opinion on the NDAA indefinite detention power the government has given itself?
When they start detaining Americans for no reason I'll worry, until then it's just a stupid law that will never be used.
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 02 2013,2:29 pm
(Liberal @ Apr. 02 2013,1:59 pm)
QUOTE
When they start detaining Americans for no reason I'll worry, until then it's just a stupid law that will never be used.
Like it's illegal to tease a skunk.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 02 2013,2:30 pm
liberal:QUOTE
So now we've gone from "no media coverage"
Me: Post 151:
QUOTE
And maybe, since this is a discussion forum afterall, some of us can be allowed to discuss things that are happening, and have been happening, that we might just have a problem with, since the mainstream national news, whose job is supposed to be to keep us informed, and be a check/balance on what the government is up to, has not been doing its job for far too long.
Me: Post #157
QUOTE
Yeah, most of the things I find out about come from alternative media, (what you call "conspiracy kook sites"). - That just shows how crap a job our mainstream national news does of informing us of things. And we fight about which mainstream news is more full of BS and which are trustworthy. When none of them do their job of telling us what is going on.
Me: Post #168
QUOTE
The mainstream media did no reporting of specifically how damaging the inability to treat water was to the population.
Are you having troubles "keeping up" or are you trying your spin and misquote trick again?
The three mainstream news articles from your google search did not inform us of what the sanctions did to the water supply, or that it was the cause of most of the deaths. One article spun the water treatment problems as "maintenance problems". - Said nothing bout sanctions keeping safe water capabilities away from Iraq.
Second article says this about the unsafe water killing people:
QUOTE
According to the Iraqi government, the trade embargo and a shortage of money have prevented repairs.
Third article says:
QUOTE
The Iraqis say the problem is the collapse of infrastructure: malnourished mothers bearing weak babies, immunizations down, dirty drinking water causing fatal illnesses.
liberal:
QUOTE
So are you saying the local publications were reporting on Iraq sanctions but not the national news?
I was just telling you what sources were in your googlesearch link.
liberal:
QUOTE
Face it you are full of crap once again, everyone knew the sanctions were killing people because of lack of clean water
You're the one who's full of crap. Do you not realize how ridiculous you have become?
liberal:
QUOTE
When they start detaining Americans for no reason I'll worry, until then it's just a stupid law that will never be used.
If it will never be used, then why have it. I bet most Americans thought the U.S. would not kill citizens with no due process and no explanation either, but they did.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 02 2013,2:50 pm
liberal: QUOTE
Face it you are full of crap once again, everyone knew the sanctions were killing people because of lack of clean water.
Then why did you say this:
QUOTE
Your Iraq sanctions conspiracy is a perfect example. Everyone that wasn't living in a hole at that time knows that the UN sanctions caused death and illness. That's why the oil for food program was started.
Because as I've already stated a time or two, the BS Oil for Food program did nothing to help them fix their water/sewer facilities. Oil For Food program did nothing to help Iraq have safe water and sewer capabilities.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 02 2013,4:16 pm
White Phosphorous Topic in Opinion. November 2005:liberal:
Just because an international treaty hasn't specifically listed WP as a chemical weapon doesn't mean it isn't by definition a chemical weapon. I sure hope the international community doesn't impose trade sanctions and demand that we allow them to inspect our weapon stockpiles.
----
liberal
If I witnessed WP shells used as a weapon I would go to the Provost Marshall and the Inspector General with the information.
----
liberal:
So are you suggesting we should pay them back for defending their country after we invaded it over faulty/manufactured intelligence?
-----
liberal:
White Phosphorous artillery shells are not intended to be used as a weapon anymore than artillery shells that smoke are intended to be used as a weapon. No matter how you try to spin this we're using a chemical that is intended to be used to mark targets or light up the night and we are using it as a chemical weapon against enemy combatants.
Isn't that one of the reasons we're fighting this war?
------
liberal:
Do you realize that the estimates of civilians killed in Iraq range from 26,000 to 100,000 but we have no way of knowing the actual number because we don't keep track of collateral damage. Is that your idea of confining a battle to a war zone?
------
liberal:
Are you suggesting that we shouldn't question anything our soldiers do because it might hurt their moral?
-------
liberal:
When the suicide bombers make it to hell, will they have plenty of American heroes to hang out with?
------
liberal:
And your ignorance is reprehensible to me. You're just another wacko that thinks everything Christians/Americans do is right and just, because you believe God sees things the Christian/American way. And I can imagine that it's an absolute foreign thought to you to think that maybe God sees things the Muslim way or the Jewish way.
------
liberal:
For some odd reason the American media doesn't seem to show us the whole picture of the Israel, Palestinian conflict.
-------
liberal:
Let's see the local warmongers explain why it's a chemical weapon when Iraq uses it but not a chemical weapon when we do.
-------
liberal:
The Kurd wrote the Pentagon report
Are you going to Blame the Kurds for the WMD lies also?
Bush didn't lie, he was just repeating what he heard from a Kurd.
------
liberal:
Yep, no doubt about it, you're a right wing nut job that would rather make a complete fool of himself defending this administration than ever admit the administration did anything wrong.
------
liberal:
That's funny, a couple hundred words on how evil liberals are but not one word about how you were WRONG again, or about how GW supposedly got his intel about chemical weapons from an anonymous Kurd.
BTW, How goes the Able Danger investigation?
-----
liberal:
Here's an article from Forbes website. I'd guess the Russian Parliment doesn't count as a world body in Jim's world.
------
liberal:
Of course it matters because we're there fighting a war over Saddam using the same freaking weapons we're using. Maybe we can tell the rest of the world how evil Saddam tortured people in secret prisons, oh wait we did that too. Kind of hard to take the moral high ground when things like this happen, isn't it?
--------
liberal:
Well if it doesn't matter how you kill people then why are we even in Iraq? Wasn't it something about chemical weapons, and WMDs?
I know you'll whine that WP is an incendiary weapon and not a chemical weapon (according to you and the rest of the wing nuts), so you think it's okay to use on insurgents and future insurgents like these two, but your flawed right wing logic doesn't carry any weight with the rest of the world.
At least we can be thankful that bigots like you are a dying breed.
-------
liberal:
I've got no problem with any weapon that's used for it's intended purpose.
Here's some interesting info from that same site for all you knuckleheads that don't have a problem with the US dropping chemical munitions on people.
-----
Here's an honest question - What ever happened to THAT guy?
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 04 2013,2:35 pm
Posted by Botto 82 on Apr. 04 2013,4:02 pm
Is YouTube part of the kookosphere?
Posted by Liberal on Apr. 04 2013,4:11 pm
< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...wV1twLg >< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...index=6 >
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 04 2013,8:10 pm
MADDOG! Great video. I love watching people squirm when they have to go and give testimony. "So 10 X's 122... Even for a liberal arts major it's what, about $1,200 a day?"
Here's part 2 lol
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 04 2013,10:20 pm
kookosphere? youtube? I don't know, I kind of enjoy seeing what this kook will say to make in on youtube nearly daily.
Or maybe Liberal thinks Gowdy is the kook since this guy stands up and calls these people out.
I wonder if Rice could have gotten by with the lies if she would have just admitted that spec. ops. couldn't go to Benghazi aid of the ambassador because DHS had all the ammo.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 05 2013,4:47 am
On video #2QUOTE
"The strikes are legal, ethical and wise."
And it shouldn't bother anyone that the vast majority of people killed by drone strikes are innocent civilians.
----
And even though they are legal, ethical and wise:
QUOTE
At one time, the White House spokesman says he was told not to admit the program existed.
Robert Gibbs, who came to the White House with President Obama in 2009, told MSNBC this weekend that "when I went through the process of becoming press secretary, one of the first things they told me was, you're not even to acknowledge the drone program. You're not even to discuss that it exists."
< http://www.usatoday.com/story...1945629 >
Robert Gibbs, who came to the White House with President Obama in 2009, told MSNBC this weekend that "when I went through the process of becoming press secretary, one of the first things they told me was, you're not even to acknowledge the drone program. You're not even to discuss that it exists."
< http://www.usatoday.com/story...1945629 >
On video #3:
I hope he stands by what he said and I hope others join him. Administrations need to stop getting a free pass by saying "I don't know", "I don't recall" or blaming "faulty" information that comes from nameless Intelligence agencies and nameless Intelligence agents. Everybody needs to stop giving these people free passes.
Posted by Self-Banished on Apr. 05 2013,5:09 am
^^^ it's not a free pass Roz, it's the lawyers shield, just like a knight in battle (though most of the time nowhere near as noble) it is a deflection. The public just needs to keep hammerin' at them.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 05 2013,1:22 pm
In that second Trey Gowdy/DHS video, director Morton says, "We release thousands every month." And "We release many DUI offenders every month."------
QUOTE
in 2009, ICE established its Office of Detention Policy and Planning, which oversees day-to-day detention reforms while designing a new detention system that aligns with our nation’s values. ICE also conducted a nationwide deployment of a new automated Risk Classification Assessment instrument to improve transparency and uniformity in detention custody and classification decisions reflecting the agency's civil enforcement priorities, this assessment contains objective criteria to guide decision making, regarding whether an alien should be detained or released
----
As the Committee knows, we are coming to the end of a Continuing Resolution (CR). This CR funded ICE to maintain a yearly average daily population of approximately 34,000 individuals. In early February, ICE was maintaining an average daily population in excess of 35,000 individuals, including many who did not require detention by law.
----
As the Committee knows, we are coming to the end of a Continuing Resolution (CR). This CR funded ICE to maintain a yearly average daily population of approximately 34,000 individuals. In early February, ICE was maintaining an average daily population in excess of 35,000 individuals, including many who did not require detention by law.
< http://www.dhs.gov/news...n-house >
So how long have they been releasing thousands a month? Since 2009? If that's true, why the big media hype about it now all of a sudden?
SB
QUOTE
The public just needs to keep hammerin' at them.
So true.
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 11 2013,2:20 pm
Stag Arms is following Colt Competition out of the state of Connecticut after new laws were voted in. PTR Industries also followed suit in announcing they would be leaving the state. A spokeman for PTR says it is encouraging other companiesw to do the same following last weeks signing of new gun laws.PTR Industries has 42 employees. Indirectly, they employ 15 to 20 local vendors at any given time who have up to 15 to 30 employees each. Stag Arms currently employs more than 200 people. Colt Competition, part of Colt Manufacturing arm, Bold Idea of Oregon will be setting up shop in Texas most likely. Texas seems to be reaping the benefits everytime liberal government infringes on the Constitution.
No wonder there's been talk of Texas seceding from the Union.
QUOTE
There have been two great documents written in the world: the Ten Commandments of our Lord and the Constitution of the United States. Alter either one, and you will alter the course of American freedom and our way of life. -Milan Hart (< from letter to the editor >)
Posted by Self-Banished on Apr. 11 2013,4:08 pm
I like PTR's stuff 
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 13 2013,11:45 am
Sixteen. Here's the list.Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.)
Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.)
Sen. Richard Burr (R-N.C.)
Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.)
Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.)
Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine)
Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.)
Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.)
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.)
Sen. Dean Heller (R-Nev.)
Sen. John Hoeven (R-N.D.)
Sen. Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.)
Sen. Mark Kirk (R-Ill.)
Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.)
Sen. Pat Toomey (R-Pa.)
Sen. Roger Wicker (R-Miss.)
These people have some real explaining to do. Disgraceful is putting it mildly. One step closer to registry.
Posted by Rosalind_Swenson on Apr. 13 2013,2:04 pm
Apr 11, 2013Today, Senators Mike Lee (UT), Rand Paul (KY) and Ted Cruz (TX) released the following statement regarding the pending vote on the motion to proceed to new gun control legislation:
"This morning the Senate will vote on the motion to proceed to the firearms bill (S.649). It is expected that the Toomey-Manchin provision announced yesterday will replace the current language regarding background checks. Yet, as of this morning, not a single senator has been provided the legislative language of this provision. Because the background-check measure is the centerpiece of this legislation it is critical that we know what is in the bill before we vote on it. The American people expect more and deserve better.
"Unfortunately, the effort to push through legislation that no one had read highlights one of the primary reasons we announced our intention to force a 60 vote threshold. We believe the abuse of the process is how the rights of Americans are systematically eroded and we will continue to do everything in our power to prevent it."
< http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=765 >
As I have argued on this floor, in the national media, and back home in Utah, we should not be legislating by using closed door, back room deals away from the eyes of the American people. We should not be voting before we understand exactly how these proposals will affect the rights of law abiding citizens and whether we can say with any level of certainty that they will reduce crime.
This is exactly why we need more debate and why I ask my colleagues to vote no on cloture – so senators and the American people can fully understand the consequences of this legislation.
< http://www.lee.senate.gov/public...cb7dc74 >
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 15 2013,10:11 am
Posted on PTR91 website their statement concerning the trambling of the Constitution.QUOTE
April 9, 2013
-
A STATEMENT CONCERNING MANUFACTURING ENCOURAGEMENT, ECONOMIC GROWTH, AND PROTECTION OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF CITIZENS.
-
This past week an historic and highly controversial bill was passed by the State of Connecticut which will have far reaching consequences to the state, its citizens, and businesses. The bill we refer to is Bill No. 1160, AN ACT CONCERNING GUN VIOLENCE PREVENTION AND CHILDRENS SAFETY. This bill purports to reduce gun violence by banning hardware responsible for less than 3% of homicides in 2011 ; and claims to increase children’s safety by restricting the ability of those most responsible for it – their parents – to defend them.
-
As a firearms manufacturing firm, our industrial roots reach deep in the State of CT. Along with other companies in the trade, we were deeply apprehensive at the hurried process to develop new gun laws and fearful that it would generate unintended consequences for our industry. On Thursday April 4th 2013, upon reading the full text of Bill 1160, our worst fears were confirmed. What emerged was a bill fraught with ambiguous definitions, insufficient considerations for the trade, conflicting mandates, and disastrous consequences for the fundamental rights of the people of CT.
-
The magnitude of the constitutional and economic importance of this bill is such that the disregard for public input (in the final version), and the haphazard production of the legislation should be insulting to any citizen or business in CT. It should be a shock to us all that such landmark legislation could be written in one week, and seen by no one (including the rank-and-file legislators) prior to its emergency certification. Having been present in the deliberations in both legislative chambers, it was clear that a majority of our legislators had not even read the bill – and those that had read it had only a cursory understanding.
-
The process with which this legislation proceeded, along with the language that resulted gives us no confidence that this will be the last violation of our rights in our beloved home state, and we only hope that this does not set a precedent at a national level.
-
The rights of the citizens of CT have been trampled upon. The safety of its children is at best questionably improved from the day of the tragedy that triggered the events that lead us here. Finally, due to an improperly drafted bill, manufacturing of modern sporting rifles in the State of CT has been effectively outlawed. With a heavy heart but a clear mind, we have been forced to decide that our business can no longer survive in Connecticut – the former Constitution state.
-
Furthermore, we feel that our industry as a whole will continue to be threatened so long as it remains in a state where its elected leaders have no regard for the rights of those who produce and manufacture its wealth. We are making a call to all involved in our industry to leave this state, close your doors and show our politicians the true consequences of their hasty and uninformed actions. We encourage those in our industry to abandon this state as its leaders have abandoned the proud heritage that forged our freedom.
-
Although PTR has not decided upon a specific relocation site at this time, over the coming weeks the company will be actively considering offers from states that are friendly to the industry. We hope to have a site identified within the next six weeks, and hope to have our move completed by the end of this year. We plan to keep our business partners informed on the status of our move throughout this process in order to affect a smooth transition.
-
We have extended the invitation to join us in the move to all of our employees, as well as all of our vendors. We are pleased to say that we currently have commitments to move from a majority of our employees, which includes ALL of our management personnel, engineering staff and skilled gunsmiths.
-
It is our hope and sincere belief that this move will represent a step forward for the company; and that by bringing our expertise and core personnel to combine with the business friendly policies, and a motivated local labor force from a state that respects industry and the second amendment that we can expand our operations and not only maintain – but increase the quality and reputation of our products.
-
Please direct any questions or inquiries to John McNamara, Vice President of Sales, at john@ptr91.com or at our main phone number.
-
A STATEMENT CONCERNING MANUFACTURING ENCOURAGEMENT, ECONOMIC GROWTH, AND PROTECTION OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF CITIZENS.
-
This past week an historic and highly controversial bill was passed by the State of Connecticut which will have far reaching consequences to the state, its citizens, and businesses. The bill we refer to is Bill No. 1160, AN ACT CONCERNING GUN VIOLENCE PREVENTION AND CHILDRENS SAFETY. This bill purports to reduce gun violence by banning hardware responsible for less than 3% of homicides in 2011 ; and claims to increase children’s safety by restricting the ability of those most responsible for it – their parents – to defend them.
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As a firearms manufacturing firm, our industrial roots reach deep in the State of CT. Along with other companies in the trade, we were deeply apprehensive at the hurried process to develop new gun laws and fearful that it would generate unintended consequences for our industry. On Thursday April 4th 2013, upon reading the full text of Bill 1160, our worst fears were confirmed. What emerged was a bill fraught with ambiguous definitions, insufficient considerations for the trade, conflicting mandates, and disastrous consequences for the fundamental rights of the people of CT.
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The magnitude of the constitutional and economic importance of this bill is such that the disregard for public input (in the final version), and the haphazard production of the legislation should be insulting to any citizen or business in CT. It should be a shock to us all that such landmark legislation could be written in one week, and seen by no one (including the rank-and-file legislators) prior to its emergency certification. Having been present in the deliberations in both legislative chambers, it was clear that a majority of our legislators had not even read the bill – and those that had read it had only a cursory understanding.
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The process with which this legislation proceeded, along with the language that resulted gives us no confidence that this will be the last violation of our rights in our beloved home state, and we only hope that this does not set a precedent at a national level.
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The rights of the citizens of CT have been trampled upon. The safety of its children is at best questionably improved from the day of the tragedy that triggered the events that lead us here. Finally, due to an improperly drafted bill, manufacturing of modern sporting rifles in the State of CT has been effectively outlawed. With a heavy heart but a clear mind, we have been forced to decide that our business can no longer survive in Connecticut – the former Constitution state.
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Furthermore, we feel that our industry as a whole will continue to be threatened so long as it remains in a state where its elected leaders have no regard for the rights of those who produce and manufacture its wealth. We are making a call to all involved in our industry to leave this state, close your doors and show our politicians the true consequences of their hasty and uninformed actions. We encourage those in our industry to abandon this state as its leaders have abandoned the proud heritage that forged our freedom.
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Although PTR has not decided upon a specific relocation site at this time, over the coming weeks the company will be actively considering offers from states that are friendly to the industry. We hope to have a site identified within the next six weeks, and hope to have our move completed by the end of this year. We plan to keep our business partners informed on the status of our move throughout this process in order to affect a smooth transition.
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We have extended the invitation to join us in the move to all of our employees, as well as all of our vendors. We are pleased to say that we currently have commitments to move from a majority of our employees, which includes ALL of our management personnel, engineering staff and skilled gunsmiths.
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It is our hope and sincere belief that this move will represent a step forward for the company; and that by bringing our expertise and core personnel to combine with the business friendly policies, and a motivated local labor force from a state that respects industry and the second amendment that we can expand our operations and not only maintain – but increase the quality and reputation of our products.
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Please direct any questions or inquiries to John McNamara, Vice President of Sales, at john@ptr91.com or at our main phone number.
< hammers kills more people >
Posted by Common Citizen on Apr. 26 2013,7:09 am
(Liberal @ Mar. 28 2013,9:40 am)
QUOTE
You got it all figured out now, so why don't you load up your ammo and freeze dried food and go crawl in a hole. We'll let you know when it's safe to come out.
I don't want to be the first to say I told you so but...
QUOTE
Democratic Rep. John Tierney, D-Mass., at the opening of the hearing, ridiculed the concerns as "conspiracy theories" which have "no place" in the committee room.
But Republicans said the purchases raise "serious" questions about waste and accountability.
Chaffetz, who chairs one of the House oversight subcommittees holding the hearing Thursday, revealed that the department currently has more than 260 million rounds in stock. He said the department bought more than 103 million rounds in 2012 and used 116 million that same year -- among roughly 70,000 agents.
Comparing that with the small-arms purchases procured by the U.S. Army, he said the DHS is churning through between 1,300 and 1,600 rounds per officer, while the U.S. Army goes through roughly 350 rounds per soldier.
He noted that is "roughly 1,000 rounds more per person."
"Their officers use what seems to be an exorbitant amount of ammunition," he said.
But Republicans said the purchases raise "serious" questions about waste and accountability.
Chaffetz, who chairs one of the House oversight subcommittees holding the hearing Thursday, revealed that the department currently has more than 260 million rounds in stock. He said the department bought more than 103 million rounds in 2012 and used 116 million that same year -- among roughly 70,000 agents.
Comparing that with the small-arms purchases procured by the U.S. Army, he said the DHS is churning through between 1,300 and 1,600 rounds per officer, while the U.S. Army goes through roughly 350 rounds per soldier.
He noted that is "roughly 1,000 rounds more per person."
"Their officers use what seems to be an exorbitant amount of ammunition," he said.
You can take this information several ways but regardless, he has a point.
QUOTE
While Democrats likened concerns about the purchases to conspiracy theories, Republicans raised concern about the sheer cost of the ammunition.
"This is not about conspiracy theories, this is about good government," Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, said.
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., who chairs the full Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said he suspects rounds are being stockpiled, and then either "disposed of," passed to non-federal agencies, or shot "indiscriminately."
If that is the case, he said, "then shame on you."
"This is not about conspiracy theories, this is about good government," Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, said.
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., who chairs the full Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said he suspects rounds are being stockpiled, and then either "disposed of," passed to non-federal agencies, or shot "indiscriminately."
If that is the case, he said, "then shame on you."
Don't be a hater because the liberal elites tell you to be one.
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 26 2013,9:00 am
(Common Citizen @ Apr. 26 2013,7:09 am)
QUOTE
(Liberal @ Mar. 28 2013,9:40 am)
QUOTE
You got it all figured out now, so why don't you load up your ammo and freeze dried food and go crawl in a hole. We'll let you know when it's safe to come out.
I don't want to be the first to say I told you so but...
QUOTE
Democratic Rep. John Tierney, D-Mass., at the opening of the hearing, ridiculed the concerns as "conspiracy theories" which have "no place" in the committee room.
But Republicans said the purchases raise "serious" questions about waste and accountability.
Chaffetz, who chairs one of the House oversight subcommittees holding the hearing Thursday, revealed that the department currently has more than 260 million rounds in stock. He said the department bought more than 103 million rounds in 2012 and used 116 million that same year -- among roughly 70,000 agents.
Comparing that with the small-arms purchases procured by the U.S. Army, he said the DHS is churning through between 1,300 and 1,600 rounds per officer, while the U.S. Army goes through roughly 350 rounds per soldier.
He noted that is "roughly 1,000 rounds more per person."
"Their officers use what seems to be an exorbitant amount of ammunition," he said.
But Republicans said the purchases raise "serious" questions about waste and accountability.
Chaffetz, who chairs one of the House oversight subcommittees holding the hearing Thursday, revealed that the department currently has more than 260 million rounds in stock. He said the department bought more than 103 million rounds in 2012 and used 116 million that same year -- among roughly 70,000 agents.
Comparing that with the small-arms purchases procured by the U.S. Army, he said the DHS is churning through between 1,300 and 1,600 rounds per officer, while the U.S. Army goes through roughly 350 rounds per soldier.
He noted that is "roughly 1,000 rounds more per person."
"Their officers use what seems to be an exorbitant amount of ammunition," he said.
You can take this information several ways but regardless, he has a point.
QUOTE
While Democrats likened concerns about the purchases to conspiracy theories, Republicans raised concern about the sheer cost of the ammunition.
"This is not about conspiracy theories, this is about good government," Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, said.
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., who chairs the full Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said he suspects rounds are being stockpiled, and then either "disposed of," passed to non-federal agencies, or shot "indiscriminately."
If that is the case, he said, "then shame on you."
"This is not about conspiracy theories, this is about good government," Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, said.
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., who chairs the full Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said he suspects rounds are being stockpiled, and then either "disposed of," passed to non-federal agencies, or shot "indiscriminately."
If that is the case, he said, "then shame on you."
Don't be a hater because the liberal elites tell you to be one.
This is the part of that conversation that kills me. DHS training officer Humberto Medina said of the excessive amounts on ammo, (they are) "exposed to a variety of situations" and "only have that weapon to protect their lives." "They can't contact air support [like an officer in an army could.] They have to be proficient at a very high level."
"Blue Charlie four, Blue Charlie Four; we have a lone male hiding in a boat." "Request Red Leader Squadron support." "A couple bunker busters should work. Over."
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 27 2013,9:28 am
As I said in another thread. This Second Amendment attack is far from over. < Senate Bill S.792 > was introduced by Sen. Lautenberg, N.J. 04/23/2013. It was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. As of the 27th, the text had not been received by Thomas LOC. In short the bill calls for a strengthening of background checks for explosive material. This will include ammunition and fireworks which can be disassembled for the powder to make explosives. This includes smokeless powders so home reloaders would also be affected.This bill needs to be watched very carefully because if worded right, it would limit access to ammunition and reloading supplies for the public and inflict finacial disaster for smaller ammunition companies.
Harry Reid and Lautenberg will also give the Attorney General the power to forbid the sale of explosive powders to anyone who is believed to be purchasing it for the purpose of terrorism which could include anyone who has strong second amendment views, reads survival literature, home schools their kids, prefers precious metals over Federal Reserve notes, or expresses a fear of big government.
Now tell me who is paranoid?
Posted by Expatriate on Apr. 27 2013,10:40 am
the slide fire stock caused the ammo shortage
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 27 2013,11:47 am
Well there you go.
Posted by MADDOG on May 25 2013,8:35 pm
Seems to be a little more ammo available lately. Stock up while you can. You have to be ready for the DHS zombies.Still not seeing .22LR though.
Posted by MADDOG on Jun. 19 2013,11:03 pm
Saw a fair amount of ammo this past week at Cabela's. No .22LR though and still limits of the number of rounds allowed per purchase. Halfway reasonable prices too. A guy and his young son in front of me had 6 boxes of .308s and the clerk only allowed him five. I'm still pi$$ed at myself for not buying them... Not much for choices of the sometimes more highly desired weapons. But then, it was Cabela's in Mitchell, S.D. and except for Native Americans, a lot of folks out there don't much care for O'Bambino.
Posted by MADDOG on Jun. 21 2013,9:51 pm
< Precision Target Rifles > choose to make move to South Carolina. Shortly after the Connecticut governor signed new laws restricting second amendment rights PTR announced they would start the search for a new home. They are not likely the only company that will likely choose more Constitution friendly states. < Colt, > which has already moved its AR-15 manufacturing to Texas will perhaps be next.
Posted by MADDOG on Jun. 21 2013,9:52 pm
It's a conspiracy.
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 23 2014,11:34 am
The DHS is making a request for bid again. This is a reissue or updated request for bids. This time for shotgun slugs and "buckshot." I suppose so the DHS militia can blast the rocks out of the air when thrown at them.QUOTE
< Shotgun Ammunition - Slug bid >
This is an update to the original synopsis issued on September 18, 2013.
U.S. Customs and Border Protection intends to issue an indefinite-delivery indefinite- quantity contract for 12 Gauge "Slug" and "Buckshot" shotgun ammunition for use by all applicable agencies in the Department of Homeland Security. The solicitation will include both "Standard" and "Reduced Recoil" versions of the ammunition. The Ammunition will be used as appropriate at all Department of Homeland Security (DHS, or Department) component locations nationwide and outside the CONUS.
The estimated quantities for slug ammunition types of ammunition are approximately three million rounds per year and for buckshot ammunition are approximately two million rounds per year. All items shall be in accordance with the statement of work and RFP that will be provided at time of solicitation issuance. The awarded contract will be for a period of five (5) years from date of award.
This is an update to the original synopsis issued on September 18, 2013.
U.S. Customs and Border Protection intends to issue an indefinite-delivery indefinite- quantity contract for 12 Gauge "Slug" and "Buckshot" shotgun ammunition for use by all applicable agencies in the Department of Homeland Security. The solicitation will include both "Standard" and "Reduced Recoil" versions of the ammunition. The Ammunition will be used as appropriate at all Department of Homeland Security (DHS, or Department) component locations nationwide and outside the CONUS.
The estimated quantities for slug ammunition types of ammunition are approximately three million rounds per year and for buckshot ammunition are approximately two million rounds per year. All items shall be in accordance with the statement of work and RFP that will be provided at time of solicitation issuance. The awarded contract will be for a period of five (5) years from date of award.
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 23 2014,12:14 pm
QUOTE
< Why Is the Post Office Buying Bullets? >
April 21, 2014
As if the U.S. Postal Service didn’t already have enough to worry about, it has now become the target of gun enthusiasts, who are accusing the agency of stockpiling ammunition as part of a broader government plot to deprive Americans of their liberties.
On April 14, Newsmax.com reported that the USPS was seeking to buy a large amount of ammunition on the heels of similar purchases by the Social Security Administration, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. This alarmed some people whom Newsmax described as “second amendment advocates.”
April 21, 2014
As if the U.S. Postal Service didn’t already have enough to worry about, it has now become the target of gun enthusiasts, who are accusing the agency of stockpiling ammunition as part of a broader government plot to deprive Americans of their liberties.
On April 14, Newsmax.com reported that the USPS was seeking to buy a large amount of ammunition on the heels of similar purchases by the Social Security Administration, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. This alarmed some people whom Newsmax described as “second amendment advocates.”
QUOTE
The USPS’s bullet purchase is playing out in similar fashion. On April 17, agency spokesman Dave Partenheimer said the postal service had a good reason for buying ammunition: Its postal inspectors carry weapons and need bullets for firearms training. Here’s his whole statement:
“The U.S. Postal Service is not hoarding ammunition. The Postal Service Inspection Service is a law enforcement agency and its Inspectors carry firearms which require ammunition. Periodically, the Inspection Service must purchase ammunition for activities like firearms training, required annual firing range qualifications and for duty. As the Postal Service’s primary law enforcement arm, the Inspection Service is a highly specialized, professional organization which performs investigative and security functions essential to a stable and sound postal system and the security of the U.S. Mail. The Postal Inspection Service has a proud and successful record of fighting criminals who misuse postal services and products to defraud, endanger or otherwise threaten the American public.”
“The U.S. Postal Service is not hoarding ammunition. The Postal Service Inspection Service is a law enforcement agency and its Inspectors carry firearms which require ammunition. Periodically, the Inspection Service must purchase ammunition for activities like firearms training, required annual firing range qualifications and for duty. As the Postal Service’s primary law enforcement arm, the Inspection Service is a highly specialized, professional organization which performs investigative and security functions essential to a stable and sound postal system and the security of the U.S. Mail. The Postal Inspection Service has a proud and successful record of fighting criminals who misuse postal services and products to defraud, endanger or otherwise threaten the American public.”
Posted by grassman on Apr. 23 2014,1:23 pm
This is just a thought. I think the United States is more in harms way than what they want us to know. I believe we have been overly saturated with the likes of the ones that want to do us harm. They are here. It is just a matter of when, things get started.
Posted by Self-Banished on Apr. 23 2014,4:10 pm
(grassman @ Apr. 23 2014,1:23 pm)
QUOTE
This is just a thought. I think the United States is more in harms way than what they want us to know. I believe we have been overly saturated with the likes of the ones that want to do us harm. They are here. It is just a matter of when, things get started.
The most profound statement I've ever seen come from you.
Posted by Liberal on Apr. 24 2014,1:48 pm
When you kooks dream about the Federal Government sending the DHS out to collect your ass and toss it in a FEMA camp, what do you imagine the teabagger caucus in Congress will do?
Posted by alcitizens on Apr. 24 2014,7:26 pm
QUOTE
When you kooks dream about the Federal Government sending the DHS out to collect your ass and toss it in a FEMA camp, what do you imagine the teabagger caucus in Congress will do?
Posted by Self-Banished on Apr. 25 2014,5:23 am
(Liberal @ Apr. 24 2014,1:48 pm)
QUOTE
When you kooks dream about the Federal Government sending the DHS out to collect your ass and toss it in a FEMA camp, what do you imagine the teabagger caucus in Congress will do?
Would it matter?
Posted by MADDOG on Apr. 25 2014,9:01 am
QUOTE
When you kooks dream about the Federal Government sending the DHS out to collect your ass
QUOTE
what do you imagine the teabagger caucus in Congress will do?
Posted by MADDOG on May 01 2015,4:54 pm
Here we go again.QUOTE
< DHS To Purchase 62 Million Rounds Of AR-15 Ammo >
April 15th, 2015
The Department of Homeland Security is set to purchase over 62 million rounds of ammo typically used in AR-15 semi-automatic rifles, just weeks after the ATF was forced to back down on a ban on M855 bullets.
A posting on FedBizOpps.gov this week reveals that the DHS is looking to contract with a company to provide 12.6 million rounds of .223 Remington ammunition per year for a period of five years – totaling 62.5 million bullets.
The solicitation explains that the purchase is intended, “to achieve price savings over the current .223 Rem duty ammunition.” The bullets will be used by U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents nationwide for “training” purposes.
The .223 Remington is one of the most common rifle cartridges in use in the United States and is used both in bolt action rifles and semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and the Ruger Mini-14.
In 2013, following concerns about the DHS buying large quantities of several different types of ammunition, weapons manufacturers noted that the feds may have been attempting to control the ammunition market by forcing manufacturers to hold back stock from general sale.
“If they periodically do this in increments, they’re going to control how much ammo is available on the commercial market,” a weapons manufacturer told Michael Savage, adding that the contracts with bullet manufacturers stipulate that everything made goes to the government as the number one priority before it is allowed to enter the commercial market.
In March 2013, Californian Congressman Doug LaMalfa and 14 of his House peers wrote a letter to the Department of Homeland Security demanding to know why the federal agency was buying so many rounds of ammunition and whether the purchases were part of a deliberate attempt to restrict supply to the American people.
“The extraordinary level of ammunition purchases made by Homeland Security seems to have, in states such as my own, created an extreme shortage of ammunition to the point where many gun owners are unable to purchase any,” LaMalfa wrote in the letter.
The bulk purchase follows attempts by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to ban M855 ammo, another popular round for AR-15’s used by hunters. The ATF justified the ban by claiming that the bullets were “armor piercing” and a threat to law enforcement officers.
After being on the receiving end of a huge backlash, the feds were forced to back down and ATF director B. Todd Jones subsequently tendered his resignation. Democratic Congressman Steve Israel called the ATF backdown “cowardly” and vowed to revive the ban.
The ATF’s threat to ban the ammo temporarily caused prices of the bullet to surge more than double in price.
Although federal agencies are increasingly hiding their purchases by limiting public information on fbo.gov, it can still be conservatively estimated from available data that the feds have purchased at least 2.11 billion rounds of ammunition since April 2012:
That’s enough ammo to kill around 30% of the world’s population.
Furthermore, U.S. soldiers were shooting around 5.5 million rounds of ammunition per month during the war in Iraq, or 66 million rounds annually. Using that figure, the feds have stockpiled enough ammo over the past two years to fight a 32-year war.
April 15th, 2015
The Department of Homeland Security is set to purchase over 62 million rounds of ammo typically used in AR-15 semi-automatic rifles, just weeks after the ATF was forced to back down on a ban on M855 bullets.
A posting on FedBizOpps.gov this week reveals that the DHS is looking to contract with a company to provide 12.6 million rounds of .223 Remington ammunition per year for a period of five years – totaling 62.5 million bullets.
The solicitation explains that the purchase is intended, “to achieve price savings over the current .223 Rem duty ammunition.” The bullets will be used by U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents nationwide for “training” purposes.
The .223 Remington is one of the most common rifle cartridges in use in the United States and is used both in bolt action rifles and semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and the Ruger Mini-14.
In 2013, following concerns about the DHS buying large quantities of several different types of ammunition, weapons manufacturers noted that the feds may have been attempting to control the ammunition market by forcing manufacturers to hold back stock from general sale.
“If they periodically do this in increments, they’re going to control how much ammo is available on the commercial market,” a weapons manufacturer told Michael Savage, adding that the contracts with bullet manufacturers stipulate that everything made goes to the government as the number one priority before it is allowed to enter the commercial market.
In March 2013, Californian Congressman Doug LaMalfa and 14 of his House peers wrote a letter to the Department of Homeland Security demanding to know why the federal agency was buying so many rounds of ammunition and whether the purchases were part of a deliberate attempt to restrict supply to the American people.
“The extraordinary level of ammunition purchases made by Homeland Security seems to have, in states such as my own, created an extreme shortage of ammunition to the point where many gun owners are unable to purchase any,” LaMalfa wrote in the letter.
The bulk purchase follows attempts by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to ban M855 ammo, another popular round for AR-15’s used by hunters. The ATF justified the ban by claiming that the bullets were “armor piercing” and a threat to law enforcement officers.
After being on the receiving end of a huge backlash, the feds were forced to back down and ATF director B. Todd Jones subsequently tendered his resignation. Democratic Congressman Steve Israel called the ATF backdown “cowardly” and vowed to revive the ban.
The ATF’s threat to ban the ammo temporarily caused prices of the bullet to surge more than double in price.
Although federal agencies are increasingly hiding their purchases by limiting public information on fbo.gov, it can still be conservatively estimated from available data that the feds have purchased at least 2.11 billion rounds of ammunition since April 2012:
That’s enough ammo to kill around 30% of the world’s population.
Furthermore, U.S. soldiers were shooting around 5.5 million rounds of ammunition per month during the war in Iraq, or 66 million rounds annually. Using that figure, the feds have stockpiled enough ammo over the past two years to fight a 32-year war.
Posted by Liberal on May 02 2015,9:18 am
You seriously don't fool even a little stupid over the first conspiracy theory not working out?
Posted by grassman on May 02 2015,11:25 am
You don't suppose they are stocking up on ammo for when ISIS rears it's ugly head in the US? Someone, seems hell bent on getting a race war going. Just sayin.
Posted by MADDOG on May 02 2015,11:29 am
(Liberal @ May 02 2015,9:18 am)
QUOTE
You seriously don't fool even a little stupid over the first conspiracy theory not working out?
Nope. Not even around you.
Every time the feds do something like this, it manipulates the market. As recently as when B. Todd tried to ban M855 rounds with wording that could have caused real challenges. You couldn't find a box of LAPs on the shelf.
Posted by Grinning_Dragon on May 02 2015,1:33 pm
(grassman @ May 02 2015,11:25 am)
QUOTE
You don't suppose they are stocking up on ammo for when ISIS rears it's ugly head in the US? Someone, seems hell bent on getting a race war going. Just sayin.
Maybe, but I wouldn't count on dhs being any sort of reliable resistance. Having seen these morons train, is like watching a train wreck. My kids have better firearms training and tactics than most dhs morons.
Their muzzle discipline is sloppy, their marksmanship is sub-par to almost nonexistent, I guess I am saying they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if they were standing in one. Now the ones with former military training have kept up their shooting skills.
So maybe this is why the feckless dhs needs so many rounds to train with, they can't shoot for chit.