Topic: Mpls schools
started by: Santorini
Posted by Santorini on Dec. 15 2012,9:13 am
Minneapolis schools may lower academic standard for participating in school sports? Really?I thought there was a state,
(mn state high school league) across the board school standard..didnt know it was up to individual schools to determine eligibility requirements
First the state does away with NCLB accountability because less then 1/2 of the schools couldnt meet the standards, virtually doing away with accountability measures and school responsibility. Now mpls. wants to dumb it down further?
What happened to sport/ extra curricular activity participation being like a reward for acceptable academia, ya know, you want it...you work for it!
Posted by grassman on Dec. 15 2012,12:50 pm
I think the whole thing has turned into a money producing culture. Sportsmanship is a thing of the past. Make as much money off of everything. Rules are meant for breaking, as long as you win. Face it. If you are spending too much time on books, you are not concentrating on the game. WINNING!
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 15 2012,1:22 pm
Given the horrible examples of grammar and spelling I see on a day-to-day basis on Facebook, it's fairly apparent that a high-school diploma doesn't mean much anymore. And I've always had an issue with the über-emphasis on high school Dumb-ball programs. Most of the guys on my HS football team were mouth-breathing morons who barely got by, academically speaking. If you want your kids to get a decent education, send them to China. They're kicking our ass in this regard, as well.
Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 15 2012,2:40 pm
(grassman @ Dec. 15 2012,12:50 pm)
QUOTE
I think the whole thing has turned into a money producing culture. Sportsmanship is a thing of the past. Make as much money off of everything. Rules are meant for breaking, as long as you win. Face it. If you are spending too much time on books, you are not concentrating on the game. WINNING!
From where I see it it's not about money, they're taught it's about begging and being lazy.
Who's rules we talking here? Sportsmanship is a subjective term.
Posted by Moparman on Dec. 15 2012,6:33 pm
(Botto 82 @ Dec. 15 2012,1:22 pm)
QUOTE
Given the horrible examples of grammar and spelling I see on a day-to-day basis on Facebook, it's fairly apparent that a high-school diploma doesn't mean much anymore. And I've always had an issue with the über-emphasis on high school Dumb-ball programs. Most of the guys on my HS football team were mouth-breathing morons who barely got by, academically speaking.
If you want your kids to get a decent education, send them to China. They're kicking our ass in this regard, as well.
If you want your kids to get a decent education, send them to China. They're kicking our ass in this regard, as well.
And I bet these "morons" were still more popular than you. And surely you realize that success these days is more about who you know instead of what you know. Working together as a team is an enormously important skill to have and sports is an excellant way build that skill. Participating in sports programs is also a very good way to keep kids out of trouble, especially in successful inner city programs. And like any other activity its only as good as the people running it.
I'm surprised there is time for any extracurricular activities these days with the 2+ hours of homework kids are forced to do.
And if China has such a great education system why do the have to steal and copy technology from all over the world?
Posted by irisheyes on Dec. 16 2012,7:46 am
(Santorini @ Dec. 15 2012,9:13 am)
QUOTE
First the state does away with NCLB accountability because less then 1/2 of the schools couldnt meet the standards, virtually doing away with accountability measures and school responsibility.
Minnesota has numerous testing requirements, we still do regardless of any changes with NCLB. I don't want you to go on thinking they're, "virtually doing away with accountability measures and school responsibility", so here's the laws, credit, and testing requirements: < House Research, State Legislature >, < MN Dept of Education, Testing Requirements >, < MN Dept of Education, Graduation Requirements >
QUOTE
Now mpls. wants to dumb it down further?
What happened to sport/ extra curricular activity participation being like a reward for acceptable academia, ya know, you want it...you work for it!
What happened to sport/ extra curricular activity participation being like a reward for acceptable academia, ya know, you want it...you work for it!
You included no sources and no details on the issue. So I spent a couple minutes on Google to find out. They're discussing lowering the GPA requirements below C for students who are showing improvement and passing all their classes. The benefit is obvious for the individual students and the school as a whole.
QUOTE
The district says, their research shows that kids who play sports have better attendance and grades than those who don't.
"We're looking for an opportunity to get them engaged in something and through that engagement we feel that student will be on the pathway toward academic success," Wicker said.
< KSTP: Academic Standards Could Change for Sports >
"We're looking for an opportunity to get them engaged in something and through that engagement we feel that student will be on the pathway toward academic success," Wicker said.
< KSTP: Academic Standards Could Change for Sports >
I suppose you'd rather we just stick with things like NCLB, and if the student is behind, we just label the whole school as a failure. And in hopes of getting them on track, they'll cut their funding and tell them they're all stupid. Who could've thought of such a magnificent plan!?
Reminds me of the South Park episode where one child is obese (Eric Cartman), so they label the whole school as obese and an utter failure in physical fitness.
Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 16 2012,8:09 am
But aren't we still left with the subjective opinion of the teachers? If this is so, they would probably lean towards "social promotion" just to keep them with their friends or just to rid themselves of a problem.
Posted by grassman on Dec. 16 2012,8:40 am
I see SB learned a new word...subjective. 
Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 16 2012,9:05 am
^ I like old words too, dumbass 
Posted by Santorini on Dec. 16 2012,11:23 am
(irisheyes @ Dec. 16 2012,7:46 am)
QUOTE
(Santorini @ Dec. 15 2012,9:13 am)
QUOTE
First the state does away with NCLB accountability because less then 1/2 of the schools couldnt meet the standards, virtually doing away with accountability measures and school responsibility.
Minnesota has numerous testing requirements, we still do regardless of any changes with NCLB. I don't want you to go on thinking they're, "virtually doing away with accountability measures and school responsibility", so here's the laws, credit, and testing requirements: < House Research, State Legislature >, < MN Dept of Education, Testing Requirements >, < MN Dept of Education, Graduation Requirements >
QUOTE
Now mpls. wants to dumb it down further?
What happened to sport/ extra curricular activity participation being like a reward for acceptable academia, ya know, you want it...you work for it!
What happened to sport/ extra curricular activity participation being like a reward for acceptable academia, ya know, you want it...you work for it!
You included no sources and no details on the issue. So I spent a couple minutes on Google to find out. They're discussing lowering the GPA requirements below C for students who are showing improvement and passing all their classes. The benefit is obvious for the individual students and the school as a whole.
QUOTE
The district says, their research shows that kids who play sports have better attendance and grades than those who don't.
"We're looking for an opportunity to get them engaged in something and through that engagement we feel that student will be on the pathway toward academic success," Wicker said.
< KSTP: Academic Standards Could Change for Sports >
"We're looking for an opportunity to get them engaged in something and through that engagement we feel that student will be on the pathway toward academic success," Wicker said.
< KSTP: Academic Standards Could Change for Sports >
I suppose you'd rather we just stick with things like NCLB, and if the student is behind, we just label the whole school as a failure. And in hopes of getting them on track, they'll cut their funding and tell them they're all stupid. Who could've thought of such a magnificent plan!?
Reminds me of the South Park episode where one child is obese (Eric Cartman), so they label the whole school as obese and an utter failure in physical fitness.
I think you like to argue for the sake of arguing
The Multiple Measures Rating is now used in MN to measure a students/schools success. It is, however, very ambiguous, and still uses standarized testing which is still human testing which we know fails in objectivity!
The MMR looks at proficiency, growth, achievement gap reduction, graduation rates. Does not address retention rates! It measures schools/students against others within the state to come up with progress scores. Wealthier schools with less diversity (ESL, free lunch, LD) will score lower because of these new calculations. They will not have the numbers in the subgroups. This growth measure puts students learning English along side students having a bad day, alongside students with cognitive or other disabilities and what is slow growth for one might be impressive growth for another but the new scores are unable to read that.
But...the voucher rules also no longer require manditory set-asides for staff development. Why if the concern is about school improvement would they eliminate teacher professional development requirements--makes no sense.
(quote): The voucher frees schools from the burdonsome requirement to show continuous progress that educators have insisted have no practical value for students or teachers. (unquote)
Really? What is the purpose of education if not for students to continually show progress
It is still educational discrimination...there is less expectations placed on the subgroups evidenced by the lower MMR number available to those groups vs their mainstream classmates.
YES...funding should be like in any other type of business that offers bonuses...you perform well and do your job than a bonus can be rewarded! You dont, well then ya need to improve. Simple.
Posted by irisheyes on Dec. 16 2012,12:44 pm
(Santorini @ Dec. 16 2012,11:23 am)
QUOTE
YES...funding should be like in any other type of business that offers bonuses...you perform well and do your job than a bonus can be rewarded! You dont, well then ya need to improve. Simple.
First, I'd like you to agree that if your patients die you'll be held financially responsible. Cut in pay, or fired. You shouldn't have to worry, because you're in the business of making them well.
If they're not as healthy as they should be at that age, you don't get paid. Simple.Second, public education is not a business.
QUOTE
(quote): The voucher frees schools from the burdonsome requirement to show continuous progress that educators have insisted have no practical value for students or teachers. (unquote)
I don't know who you're quoting. Nor do you show any sources or links for your information.
QUOTE
It is, however, very ambiguous, and still uses standarized testing which is still human testing which we know fails in objectivity!
Standardized testing does not fail objectivity, by definition standardized tests are standard. Most can remember as a child or adult taking these tests, they're not open to interpretation or "human testing", as you claim. < eHow: Standardized Testing > < Standardized Testing, Legal Definition >
Other than a couple disagreements here, you're obviously knowledgeable on the current testing. But I don't see how you think NCLB is better, since it too, is standardized testing that has the same flaws you mentioned. It just fails an entire school based on any who aren't proficient. And again, when you can promise none of your patients will die or get sicker than they should at that age, you can feel free to take the pledge I offered.
QUOTE
This growth measure puts students learning English along side students having a bad day, alongside students with cognitive or other disabilities and what is slow growth for one might be impressive growth for another but the new scores are unable to read that.
So, should we not test kids who are having a bad day? Do you have a solution, because nothing you just mentioned is different from NCLB. Unless there's a part of that law that didn't test kids with slow growth, bad day, etc.
Not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's an important topic. We can debate testing requirements and such, but I don't think that's what this is about. The way some talk about public education it makes me wonder whether you're actually in favor of it, or trying to look for ways to scrap the system for one based on profit.
Posted by Santorini on Dec. 17 2012,8:56 am
NCLB was exactly that...NO child would be left behind...ALL were included and the focus was not subgroups. Accountability rested with the school and the teachers and parents had a clear idea of how well a school performed, ultimately giving parents choices in education. Inclusion was the key but also considered the barrier to success for many schools. Didnt it used to be set up where a school would receive extra funds for each student in a subgroup? Schools not making the grade didnt automatically receive the funding with NCLB. NCLB didnt discriminate just because one was from a poor family, or displayed a learning difference...NCLB legislation stated ALL kids had the right to be included in education and expectations shouldnt be lowered because of any situation. When did education become about the teachers? My point is that the public education system is severly flawed. Was NCLB a perfect solution? Absolutely not...but schools were held accountable, there was actual anual data to show performance...now we just have to take their word for it.
Standarized testing can be severely flawed! There are many variables that can influence outcome. Did the test-taker have breakfast? did they get enough sleep? is something bothering them? are they a slower tester and hurrying to keep up? did they just break up with a boy/girl friend? are they mentally at their peak in the AM or in the PM? Any one of these factors can influence results. YOU know that from working...sometimes you have good productive days and sometimes not so good. That is the human element intertwined with standarized tests.
As I said, the public school system is serverly flawed. Its a one-size fits all mentality. THAT is what needs to change.
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 17 2012,9:09 am
NCLB shifted the focus from teaching the subject to teaching to the test. It's a ridiculous pile of garbage that needs to be thrown on the trash heap of bad ideas.
Posted by Liberal on Dec. 17 2012,10:44 am
QUOTE
Standarized testing can be severely flawed! There are many variables that can influence outcome. Did the test-taker have breakfast? did they get enough sleep? is something bothering them? are they a slower tester and hurrying to keep up? did they just break up with a boy/girl friend? are they mentally at their peak in the AM or in the PM? Any one of these factors can influence results.
Maybe they could just add an area on tests where test-takers could acknowledge being hungry, tired, thirsty, slow-witted, or emotionally upset?
Posted by Common Citizen on Dec. 18 2012,8:03 am
(irisheyes @ Dec. 16 2012,12:44 pm)
QUOTE
(Santorini @ Dec. 16 2012,11:23 am)
QUOTE
YES...funding should be like in any other type of business that offers bonuses...you perform well and do your job than a bonus can be rewarded! You dont, well then ya need to improve. Simple.
First, I'd like you to agree that if your patients die you'll be held financially responsible. Cut in pay, or fired. You shouldn't have to worry, because you're in the business of making them well.
If they're not as healthy as they should be at that age, you don't get paid. Simple.Second, public education is not a business.
QUOTE
(quote): The voucher frees schools from the burdonsome requirement to show continuous progress that educators have insisted have no practical value for students or teachers. (unquote)
I don't know who you're quoting. Nor do you show any sources or links for your information.
QUOTE
It is, however, very ambiguous, and still uses standarized testing which is still human testing which we know fails in objectivity!
Standardized testing does not fail objectivity, by definition standardized tests are standard. Most can remember as a child or adult taking these tests, they're not open to interpretation or "human testing", as you claim. < eHow: Standardized Testing > < Standardized Testing, Legal Definition >
Other than a couple disagreements here, you're obviously knowledgeable on the current testing. But I don't see how you think NCLB is better, since it too, is standardized testing that has the same flaws you mentioned. It just fails an entire school based on any who aren't proficient. And again, when you can promise none of your patients will die or get sicker than they should at that age, you can feel free to take the pledge I offered.
QUOTE
This growth measure puts students learning English along side students having a bad day, alongside students with cognitive or other disabilities and what is slow growth for one might be impressive growth for another but the new scores are unable to read that.
So, should we not test kids who are having a bad day? Do you have a solution, because nothing you just mentioned is different from NCLB. Unless there's a part of that law that didn't test kids with slow growth, bad day, etc.
Not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's an important topic. We can debate testing requirements and such, but I don't think that's what this is about. The way some talk about public education it makes me wonder whether you're actually in favor of it, or trying to look for ways to scrap the system for one based on profit.
I find many of your post/points interesting but any chance you can create a cliff notes version?
Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 18 2012,8:20 am
^ no sh!t!
Posted by Liberal on Dec. 18 2012,10:13 am
I've said before you can't get too wordy with Republicans, it's best to use pictures and maybe just a few small words.
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 18 2012,10:39 am
Speaking of wordy, whatever happened to Jimhanson?
Posted by Glad I Left on Dec. 18 2012,5:09 pm
(Common Citizen @ Dec. 18 2012,8:03 am)
QUOTE
(irisheyes @ Dec. 16 2012,12:44 pm)
QUOTE
(Santorini @ Dec. 16 2012,11:23 am)
QUOTE
YES...funding should be like in any other type of business that offers bonuses...you perform well and do your job than a bonus can be rewarded! You dont, well then ya need to improve. Simple.
First, I'd like you to agree that if your patients die you'll be held financially responsible. Cut in pay, or fired. You shouldn't have to worry, because you're in the business of making them well.
If they're not as healthy as they should be at that age, you don't get paid. Simple.Second, public education is not a business.
QUOTE
(quote): The voucher frees schools from the burdonsome requirement to show continuous progress that educators have insisted have no practical value for students or teachers. (unquote)
I don't know who you're quoting. Nor do you show any sources or links for your information.
QUOTE
It is, however, very ambiguous, and still uses standarized testing which is still human testing which we know fails in objectivity!
Standardized testing does not fail objectivity, by definition standardized tests are standard. Most can remember as a child or adult taking these tests, they're not open to interpretation or "human testing", as you claim. < eHow: Standardized Testing > < Standardized Testing, Legal Definition >
Other than a couple disagreements here, you're obviously knowledgeable on the current testing. But I don't see how you think NCLB is better, since it too, is standardized testing that has the same flaws you mentioned. It just fails an entire school based on any who aren't proficient. And again, when you can promise none of your patients will die or get sicker than they should at that age, you can feel free to take the pledge I offered.
QUOTE
This growth measure puts students learning English along side students having a bad day, alongside students with cognitive or other disabilities and what is slow growth for one might be impressive growth for another but the new scores are unable to read that.
So, should we not test kids who are having a bad day? Do you have a solution, because nothing you just mentioned is different from NCLB. Unless there's a part of that law that didn't test kids with slow growth, bad day, etc.
Not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's an important topic. We can debate testing requirements and such, but I don't think that's what this is about. The way some talk about public education it makes me wonder whether you're actually in favor of it, or trying to look for ways to scrap the system for one based on profit.
I find many of your post/points interesting but any chance you can create a cliff notes version?
Personally I like IE's responses. He does research and formulates good arguments. He doesn't get caught up in the back and forth name calling which tends to degrade the conversations quite quickly and has forced me to become more of a creeper vs an active poster...
My two cents.
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 18 2012,5:52 pm
(Glad I Left @ Dec. 18 2012,5:09 pm)
QUOTE
Personally I like IE's responses. He does research and formulates good arguments. He doesn't get caught up in the back and forth name calling which tends to degrade the conversations quite quickly and has forced me to become more of a creeper vs an active poster...
My two cents.
My two cents.
Well said. I'm not a fan of the distracting ad hominem attacks, either, and I guess I'm as guilty of those as the next guy.
Posted by irisheyes on Dec. 19 2012,8:21 am
(Common Citizen @ Dec. 18 2012,8:03 am)
QUOTE
I find many of your post/points interesting but any chance you can create a cliff notes version?
You should see my rough drafts before a chop off a couple/few paragraphs.
But yeah, I'll try to start doing a more condensed version.
G.I.L.
QUOTE
Personally I like IE's responses. He does research and formulates good arguments...
Thanks.
Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 19 2012,9:28 am
^ keep your promise and I promise to quit calling you Kapt. Kreepy.Honest Injun.
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 19 2012,12:20 pm
(Self-Banished @ Dec. 19 2012,9:28 am)
QUOTE
Honest Injun.
Aww, geez, now the Native Americans of the forum will get offended...
Posted by Glad I Left on Dec. 19 2012,5:33 pm
I am not against calling someone a complete dumbass when they post something patently stupid, but just because someone disagrees with you doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong and therefore an idiot.Good intellectual discussion is important, something I think congress could learn. Both parties are too worried about making the other party look bad vs doing some real good in this country.
Personally it is getting really old election after election. Maybe I am casting too big of a brush since it is really Boehner, and Reid that seem to be top offenders, but one thing does trickle down is leadership, and when you see your boss acting like a spoiled brat....
Posted by jaaah on Dec. 20 2012,1:25 pm
Self Banished,Just so you know, if a school wants to hold a child back and have them repeat a grade, a parent has to approve it. Wonder how often that happens...
Posted by Santorini on Dec. 21 2012,9:46 am
(Botto 82 @ Dec. 17 2012,9:09 am)
QUOTE
NCLB shifted the focus from teaching the subject to teaching to the test. It's a ridiculous pile of garbage that needs to be thrown on the trash heap of bad ideas.
How did NCLB force teachers to teach the test?
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 21 2012,10:00 am
I didn't say "forced," I said "shifted focus."Tell me again about your reading and comprehension skills...
Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 21 2012,10:24 am
(jaaah @ Dec. 20 2012,1:25 pm)
QUOTE
Self Banished,
Just so you know, if a school wants to hold a child back and have them repeat a grade, a parent has to approve it. Wonder how often that happens...
Just so you know, if a school wants to hold a child back and have them repeat a grade, a parent has to approve it. Wonder how often that happens...
Probably not as often as it should.
Posted by Cheyenne on Dec. 21 2012,10:48 am
As a former parent of a student in Dist 241...I tried really hard to have my oldest son held back in grade school because he had not met the objectives for passing to the next grade they would NOT hold him back and he continued to fail meeting the expectations for each grade he passed through and they just kept pushing him from one grade to the next he did graduate from Dist 241. However, he can not fill out a job application without help, he can not understand the directions on a box of mac & cheese...but our public education system is soooo awesome. Might I remind you that I as his parent tried to have him held back so he would meet the goals of his grade level the school administration would not allow that...so his being held back was approved by his parent and they still did not hold him back.
Posted by Santorini on Dec. 22 2012,8:22 am
(Botto 82 @ Dec. 21 2012,10:00 am)
QUOTE
I didn't say "forced," I said "shifted focus."
Tell me again about your reading and comprehension skills...
Tell me again about your reading and comprehension skills...
semantics!!
Ok then...how did NCLB shift focus to teaching the test?
Posted by Santorini on Dec. 22 2012,8:40 am
(Cheyenne @ Dec. 21 2012,10:48 am)
QUOTE
As a former parent of a student in Dist 241...I tried really hard to have my oldest son held back in grade school because he had not met the objectives for passing to the next grade they would NOT hold him back and he continued to fail meeting the expectations for each grade he passed through and they just kept pushing him from one grade to the next he did graduate from Dist 241. However, he can not fill out a job application without help, he can not understand the directions on a box of mac & cheese...but our public education system is soooo awesome. Might I remind you that I as his parent tried to have him held back so he would meet the goals of his grade level the school administration would not allow that...so his being held back was approved by his parent and they still did not hold him back.
The schools have certain criteria that needs to be met.
Perhaps your son met their criteria and was moved on, despite your opposition, because according to their guidelines he was successful enough to move forward. This is the problem. Not all kids learn the same way, yet, we have an archaic, on-size-fits-all system. And it is flawed.
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 23 2012,5:13 pm
The first paragraph here details the ideal outcome pretty well. Sadly in life, the ideal outcome is seldom realized. The second paragraph outlines the more likely Human scenario.QUOTE
A more subtle critique is that teaching to the test can be good or bad. If curricula are carefully developed by educators and the test is written with curricula in mind, then teaching to the test means teaching students the knowledge and skills we agree they ought to learn—exactly what our teachers are legally and ethically obligated to do.
Yet there are two senses in which teaching to the test can indeed be harmful: excessive preparation that focuses more on the format of the test and test-taking techniques than on the subject matter, and the reallocation of classroom time from subjects on which students are not tested (often art and physical education) to those on which they are (often reading and mathematics).*
Yet there are two senses in which teaching to the test can indeed be harmful: excessive preparation that focuses more on the format of the test and test-taking techniques than on the subject matter, and the reallocation of classroom time from subjects on which students are not tested (often art and physical education) to those on which they are (often reading and mathematics).*
< * Article: Teach to the Test? - Wilson Quarterly >
When I went to school, teachers (persons now designated by the PC term "educators") brought their own style of teaching and emphasis, unlike the cookie-cutter approach implied by things like NCLB. As a general rule, people my age walked out of the system more or less able to enter adult life. I don't see that so much anymore. While I'm reluctant to blame any one single factor for this, I'm fairly sure that cookie-cutter top-down administrative micromanagement isn't helping.
When I see kids that can't make change without the cash register, or horrific examples of what passes for grammar on Facebook and the like, I think it's safe to say that things are slipping. And I'd like to help stop this trend, if possible. Lame excuses and handing out trophies to all participants isn't working for me. If things like NCLB actually do shift focus to things like reading and arithmetic, I shudder to think how bad things are getting in the areas that suffer as a result, don't you?