Topic: Refund of tax overage adds up
started by: Spidey
Posted by Spidey on Jul. 12 2004,11:35 am
Is it really necessary to receive money back when you pay too much for your real-estate taxes? According to some officials, it may depend on how much that overpayment is.Freeborn County Auditor/Treasurer Dennis Distad asked for the board to conduct a hearing to consider allowing his department to retain money from overpayments. Instead of cutting a check, they would keep the money in the county revenue fund. The maximum amount held would be $20. Any amount over $20 would be returned to the property owner.
So far this year, the department has had 18 overpayments from $1.92 to $20, the total number of dollars this year was $446.
"The cutting of a check far exceeds the benefit," said County Administrator Ron Gabrielsen, who estimated the average cost of cutting a check is about $11 including time involved for research, and bringing the issue before the board for approval.
Commissioner Dan Belshan said if the board was to implement such a policy, he would rather see it be under $10.
He questioned the actual cost for mailings. And, later, he said people should receive the money back or be credited for the overpayment in their next bill.
"I don't think we should even consider this," he said.
Belshan said a hearing is unnecessary and by holding one, the county would be spending money through staff time and publication cost for the hearing.
"This is wasting valuable staff time ... three commissioners won't vote for this anyway," he said.
But Commissioner Behrends said it was valuable to hold a hearing, just to make a decision on the matter.
"We vote it up or down and then it's done," he said.
If an overpayment policy is adopted, it will likely go into effect in August.
The board voted to hold a hearing at the next meeting, with Belshan and Commissioner Springborg dissenting.
My question is ... why are there over charges or payments? These amounts are set well in advance, so I don't get it. Why not let them apply the credit to their next payment? Federal and State do this all the time with payroll. $20.00 or less would be feasible I would think.
I also agree that they need to hold a hearing to make a decision about money. Wouldn't want them to just make secret decisions all on their own ... gotta make it legal. I'm surprised this hasn't been resolved a long time ago.
Posted by Liberal on Jul. 12 2004,11:56 am
| Quote |
Freeborn County Auditor/Treasurer Dennis Distad asked for the board to conduct a hearing to consider allowing his department to retain money from overpayments. Instead of cutting a check, they would keep the money in the county revenue fund. |
Do you think if Distad overpaid his phone bill $20 he'd expect the money back?
If you overcharge somebody or they overpay you and you keep the money that's no different then stealing as far as I'm concerned. And like Belshan said there is no need for a hearing they should have just voted right then to cut everyone that overpaid a check or put it towards their next years taxes.
To hold a hearing will only increase that insane number they quoted to write a check. How can it cost the county $11 to cut a check. That's complete insanity and another example of when the commissioners should have asked him for some proof.
| Quote |
So far this year, the department has had 18 overpayments from $1.92 to $20, the total number of dollars this year was $446. |
If you take the highest amount overpaid($20) and multiply it by the number of overpayments (18) you only come up with $360, but, Distad said the total is $446. The math doesn't work out.
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Jul. 12 2004,12:56 pm
Again, this County will make a buck at all costs, even if it means stealing from the very tax base that already supports this County.
Posted by hoosier on Jul. 12 2004,1:19 pm
Lets everyone under pay your bill by 20 bucks and see if the county thinks its to much of a hassle ot deal with. I cannot seriously believe that anyone in government would even consider this. I agree with Dan Belshan. No need for a meeting on this, people over pay, its not the counties money, give it back.
If Gabrielsan says it costs 11 dollars to do the paperwork, at the very least that should be the cut off point. At least the county breaks even.
Posted by GEOKARJO on Jul. 12 2004,2:42 pm
I don't see an envolope and stamp costing 11 bucks.... there again fixing cost to a job that an employee is going to be paid a fixed amount whether or not they send the refund or sit with their hands in their laps.
Posted by danbelshan on Jul. 12 2004,5:20 pm
Here is the County's penalty for paying taxes late using May 15th first half taxes as an example.1st half property taxes must be postmarked or paid by May 15 to not receive the % penalty listed below
Postmarked or received May 16 to May 31
Homestead property 3%
Nonhomestead property 4%
Paid June 1st to June 30
Homestead property 4%
Nonhomestead property 8%
Paid July 1st to July 31
Homestead property 5%
Nonhomestead property 9%
Paid August1 to August 31
Homestead property 6%
Nonhomestead property 10%
Paid Sept 1 to Sept 30
Homestead property 7%
Nonhomestead property 11%
Paid Oct 1 to Oct 31
Homestead property 8%
Nonhomestead property 12%
This is listed on the back of your tax statement
If you short the county on your taxes I believe the penalty only applies to the dollars not payed on time but I haven't confirmed that yet with our auditor.
Before the public hearing to get input if the public wants this fee or not, I will make sure the people that overpaid are notified.
Do you think they'll want to donate to the county or get all the overpayment back?
Spending time on trivial items like this divert thinking about the real issues like sharing resources with the city and how will we pay for all the new staff being hired.
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Jul. 12 2004,7:37 pm
Let's put it this way, the supporters of and the vote on this issue should prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, exactly who we need to get rid of in the County, unless the citizens really want to be lead and represented by common thieves.Sure it may only be $20, but like Hoosier said,
| Quote |
| Lets everyone under pay your bill by 20 bucks and see if the county thinks its to much of a hassle ot deal with. |
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?
Posted by spike on Jul. 12 2004,7:58 pm
A few years ago when I was managing a large office, we wanted to determine the cost we bore whenever a credit was issued to a customer.I won't get into all the details, but we came up with of figure of around $5. We had to figure in these costs:
-the original phone call charges from the customer on our 800 number (5-15 minute phone call)
-the wage paid to the person taking the call (5-15 minutes)
-the wage paid to the supervisor to approve the credit (5-10 minutes)
-the wage paid to the accounts receivable person processing the credit (5-10 minutes)
-the postage to mail out a credit memo
It is a little more involved then writing a check, putting it into an envelope & affixing a stamp but it certainly can't cost the county close to $11 to process each refund.
Unfortunately, it probably will and that is the whole point. Gov't has grown way too big to do anything efficiently.
Posted by The Rocket on Jul. 12 2004,8:32 pm
I can't believe in todays computerized world that the credit can not be applied to the next payment. If there is no other payment due for some reason then deal with it. As long as we are talking about collecting taxes. Would anyone be in favor of monthly bill pays so those of us on fixed incomes could budget the money easier.
Posted by hoosier on Jul. 13 2004,8:58 am
Rocket, agreed. I cant believe it would cost 11 bucks to credit the refund on the next bill.But the whole point here I think is that we seem to have a political climate here in Freeborn County that the politicians seem to imbrace. And that is that doing what is right by the people that elect you is just to damn hard.
Its to hard to give people back money that they over paid?
A city council memeber complains about letting the public talk to much at meetings because in his words, "Our meetings last to long the way it is."
Where do we find these people? They arent the ones we elected, are they?
GIVE THE MONEY BACK! PERIOD! If it costs 20 bucks to give back 20 bucks, then just do it.
To the city council member or any local board or council member. The second you start thinking that the meetings are to long, you have overstayed your welcome. Its time to hang it up and let someone else do the job.
Doing what is right and fair is hard work. If its to hard to give money back or allow people to participate in their own government, its time we elect some new people that dont want to take the easy way out all the time.
Dan, thanks for the info, keep up the good work.
Posted by DrBombay on Jul. 15 2004,2:07 am
One time I paid my taxes late, and I had made a mistake figuring the late penalty. I recieved a call from the Treasurer's office saying they could not accept this payment. So I ask if I could send them a check for the difference (it was only a few bucks). They said no, I had to go up to the court house and give them a new check for the full amount. Now if they check all of this out as soon as they open the envelope, why can't they give these people who mistakenly overpay a call, and have them come up and issue a new check. Another thing that has bugged me about this moronic system of thiers is the fact that you can't make payments on your taxes. What if someone is behind on there taxes, the current system will only allow full payment of taxes due (including interest). Wouldn't the county be better off accepting a partial payment, and keep accruing interest on the unpaid portion? People who are behind would be more apt to at least attempt to get it paid, if the county was willing to take partial payments.
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Jul. 15 2004,8:31 pm
Isn't it funny how when you owe our governemnt money, you have to pay interest yet when they owe you money, you'll get it when they are good and ready to give it to you. 
Posted by Liberal on Jul. 15 2004,11:50 pm
Sometimes you just have to wonder...| Quote |
MN Statute 276.19 Subdivision 1. Notice of overpayment. If an overpayment of property tax arises on a parcel due to receipt of a payment that exceeds the total amount of the tax required to be paid on the property tax statement, the responsible county official shall promptly notify the payer by regular mail that the overpayment has occurred. The notice must state the amount of overpayment and identify the parcel on which the overpayment occurred. The notice must also instruct the payer how to claim the overpayment and advise that the overpayment is subject to forfeiture under this section. If the name or address of the payer is not known, the notice of unclaimed overpayment must be mailed to the taxpayer of record in the office of the county auditor. Subd. 2. Failure to claim refund. If the person entitled to the refund fails to claim the overpayment within three years after the date of overpayment, the county auditor shall cause notice to be published at least once in an English language newspaper of general circulation in the county. The county board shall designate the newspaper of publication that in the judgment of the board is most likely to be read by the claimants, notwithstanding any law to the contrary. The published notice must be called "Notice of unclaimed property tax refunds." The notice must contain: (1) the names in alphabetical order and last known addresses, if any, of persons listed in the notice that may be entitled to unclaimed property tax refund; (2) a statement that information concerning the amount of overpayment and affected property may be obtained from the county auditor at the address given in the notice; and (3) a statement that if proof of claim is not presented to the county auditor within 90 days from the date of publication of notice, the overpayment will be considered abandoned and all claims to property tax overpayment will be forfeited. The county auditor is not required to include and publish in the notice any item of less than $25 overpaid on a parcel. Subd. 3. Distribution of refunds. If the person entitled to the refund fails to claim the overpayment within the time provided in this section, the county auditor shall distribute the refund to the affected taxing districts in proportion to the amount of their respective taxes included in the levy for the tax year overpaid. At the option of the county auditor, the overpayment may be distributed to the affected taxing districts in proportion to the current tax year levy. Subd. 4. Applicability. Sections 345.31 to 345.60 do not apply to unclaimed property tax refunds, overpayments, and warrants. < MN Statute 276.19 Unclaimed Overpayment > |
Posted by ICU812 on Jul. 16 2004,6:57 am
Yeah but according to old GABE from previous his dealings it is not what the law states, it's how you INTERPRET the law.
Posted by hoosier on Jul. 16 2004,9:00 am
Our elected officials have never let the law stand in the way of the way they do business, why start now? To tell you the truth Liberal, you were able to look up that law easily, I bet Gabe and Distad dont even know of the law.
Remember the open meeting bull$hit? Nelson was going by a 5 or 6 year old law. It had been revised in 2002, he had no idea. He damn well should have known, just like Gabe. Its a shame when the public has to stay on top of the current laws to protect themselves from the people that represent us.
Posted by Liberal on Jul. 16 2004,11:19 am
These things wouldn't happen if our little county atty would attend the meetings.
Posted by hoosier on Jul. 16 2004,11:38 am
You are right Liberal, but just like in the open meeting law dispute, he didnt know what the current law was.He can attend all the meetings he wants, if he doesnt know the law, what good would it do having him at meetings? LOL.
This is the guy that our county commissioners decided was doing such a great job that he should get a bigger raise than anyone else in county government.
This is at the very least, the second time since recieving his raise that the county attorney has had to be told that he is not up to date on the laws that govern the board. In both cases it has had to be pointed out by private citizens. In both cases all they had to do is go online and look it up. How hard can it be to do your job right?
How hard was it Liberal to find that statute?
How long did it take you?
Why dont people like Distad and Gabe check the laws before they open their idiotic mouths the next time? Or did they check with our little county attorney first and he siad it was ok?
Either way, it makes it look like the three stooges are running county government.
And where is the Tribune on this? Shouldnt they do some checking to see if what the board wants to do is legal? Things must not have changed much with the hiring of a new editor.
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Jul. 16 2004,12:03 pm
| Quote |
| Why dont people like Distad and Gabe check the laws before they open their idiotic mouths the next time? |
Because if they did that, they wouldn't be the good old boys, not to mention that it would require effort on their part.
| Quote |
| And where is the Tribune on this? |
Where is the Trib on anything that has to do with our government doing anything illegal? If I didn't know better, I would almost swear that the Trib and the County government were one in the same group of people.
Posted by ICU812 on Jul. 16 2004,12:10 pm
| Quote (Ole1kanobe @ July 16 2004,12:03:pm) |
| If I didn't know better, I would almost swear that the Trib and the County government were one in the same group of people. |
No doubt. The last week of headlines has been about a council meeting that lasted 1 hr and a few minutes. Like said it would take some EFFORT on their part.
Posted by spike on Jul. 16 2004,12:53 pm
Come on, the Trib doesn't have time to report on this stuff, I mean with all the other exciting, breaking news in Albert Lea...
Posted by hoosier on Jul. 16 2004,3:01 pm
You guys are exactly right. My god, in most towns the local paper would have taken the board to court over open meeting violations. Not the Tribune.
On the subject of not giving refunds, had Dan Belshan not argued against this, the board might have passed this that day. And if the public were blind and put their trust in our elected officials to do what is legal, the county would be keeping this money.
I have heard it time and time again from qualified journalists that its their responsibility to see that government does what its supposed to do. That they are supposed to be our watchdog.
I guess thats the differance, qualified journalists, aint seen any in A.L. since moving here 10 years ago.
Think there will be an editorial in the paper telling the board that what they were trying to do is illegal? I doubt it.
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Jul. 16 2004,4:09 pm
Only if the copy and paste what they find on this site, lol!!
Posted by Nose for News on Jul. 16 2004,6:23 pm
Minnesota Office of the State Auditor.----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Auditor Releases Results of Investigation of City of Orr
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1. Auditor Releases Results of Investigation of City of Orr
State Auditor Pat Anderson released the results of an investigation into the City of Orr earlier this week. The investigation revealed a general pattern of lax financial oversight within the city. The issues highlighted by the investigation included a lack of documentation of city decisions, a failure to keep thorough records and retain important documents, and engaging in practices without proper statutory authority. Furthermore, it was revealed that the city could have avoided many of these problems had it implemented the suggestions made in the city’s annual audits.
We would like to remind all local elected officials and staff of the importance of keeping accurate and thorough records as well as the need to follow suggestions made in audits.
A copy of the letter sent to the City of Orr is available online at < http://www.auditor.state.mn.us. >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Liberal on Jul. 17 2004,9:59 am
Hoosier, I spent a couple minutes looking it up and posting it. I just typed the question into google and it as the first link that came up.Maybe the problem with the Tribune is that they don't keep reporters here long enough to figure out that some people in the county have a tendency to speak before thinking.
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Jul. 17 2004,12:22 pm
| Quote |
| We would like to remind all local elected officials and staff of the importance of keeping accurate and thorough records as well as the need to follow suggestions made in audits. |
So does this mean that it is wrong to just jot down the 'jist' of the County Board meeting minutes?
Interesting.
Posted by Liberal on Jul. 20 2004,12:26 pm
I was at the county commissioner meeting today and they decided to drop the idea of keeping overpayments. It seems there is a state law that protects us from this (I posted it a page or two back) Craig Nelson said that they were just trying to streamline the process by not returning the money and when Belshan asked if it were illegal he said it was. But, later Distad said "it was legal to keep the money"
I'm going to have to disagree with Distad on this one, since I talked to a Shaun Hagen at the MN dept. of revenue yesterday and he said it was illegal and he would send me further proof next week when the property tax attorney gets back from vacation if I still needed it. But, I guess I won't now that the board has dropped it.
Also the person from the dept of revenue said he was "very suspicious of the dollar amount quoted in the Tribune on cutting a check" he didn't actually say anyone was lying he just said that it was "very suspicious".
Posted by Ole1kanobe on Jul. 20 2004,2:02 pm
It's all good and whatnot that they did drop this stupidity, but come on; should it really take private citizens to dictate to the County government what is and what is not illegal. Shouldn't anyone serving either as an elected official or a hired employee serving in the government sector at least have a god damn clue as to what the law states??For christ's sake, how much more crooked can this County's government get? Where the hell was the County Attorney that just had to have a fricken 17% raise at on issues like this???!
If it is true that crap rolls downhill, the crap we get stuck with must start up somewhere around the north pole before it hits us.