Forum: Current Events
Topic: EPA pushing E-15
started by: Common Citizen

Posted by Common Citizen on Nov. 27 2012,7:15 am
QUOTE
E15 may be lawfully sold by a fuel or fuel additive manufacturer only after the manufacturer has registered E15 and met the conditions of the partial waivers, which include a misfueling mitigation plan for minimizing the potential for E15 to be used in vehicles and engines not covered by the partial waivers. For more information on fuel registration, visit the Registration and Health Effects Testing page. For more information on specific waiver conditions, visit the Misfueling Mitigation Plans page and the Survey Plan page. There are a number of additional factors, including requirements under other federal, state, and local laws, that may also affect the distribution of E15.

With EPA’s June 15, 2012 approval of a number of companies’ misfueling mitigation plans, EPA has acted on each of the Clean Air Act steps required to bring E15 to market. Some companies have now met all of the Clean Air Act requirements related to E15 and may lawfully introduce E15 into the marketplace.


The EPA's intent is to replace E-10 with E-15.  On the surface, 5% does not seem like much of a big deal. But here is something you need to be aware of.

EPA is not interested in educating consumers.  Although they have created a sticker to be placed at the pumps, this is as far as it goes because their responsiblity lies with protecting the environment...not educating consumers about which blends should be used in their cars.  95% of consumers have never heard about it and 44% of consumers have no idea whether it is safe for their vehicles.

Only 12 million (5%) out of 240 million vehicles on the road today are approved for E-15 use by automobile manufacturers.

5 auto makers have said their warranties will not cover damage to fuel system components caused by E-15 and 7 additional auto makers have said they will void warranty coverage.

The EPA is confident enough to state that E-15 will not harm your engine and/or fuel system, but are unwilling to prove it and are not confident enough to warranty your engine and/or fuel system when they fail.

Consumer Reports writes:
QUOTE
While E15 could be an effective way to reduce petroleum consumption on a national basis, blending additional quantities beyond E10 poses compatibility hurdles with both infrastructure and vehicles. As a liquid fuel that has been produced for centuries, ethanol should require the fewest changes from traditional petroleum of any available alternative.

In our own testing, Consumer Reports found that a flex-fuel vehicle specifically designed to run on E85, a much higher blend of ethanol, got almost 30-percent worse fuel economy running on the fuel than it did on regular gasoline. Perhaps lower mid-grade blends could provide some advantages without such a large drop in fuel economy, but the energy density of ethanol is significantly lower than gasoline.

Consumers Union, the consumer advocacy arm of Consumer Reports, has expressed concern about warranty coverage for consumers who mistakenly fuel their cars or small engines with E15. But the organization remains hopeful that a solution can be found that will protect consumers and add another arrow to the country's arsenal of alternatives to its dependence on petroleum from other parts of the world.


< Consumer Reports >

Another issue that is not discussed is how corrosive ethanol blended fuels can be.  This could have a potential impact on local fuel companies and gas stations and the delivery
mechanisms that are used.

Any concerns shoud be directed to < this person. >

This has been a CC public service announcement.

Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 27 2012,7:53 am
Oh joy, more farmer welfare. I think I saw corn at $8.65 this morning. This ought to raise food prices some more.

I talked to a farm manager this thanksgiving week, he figures we'll be seeing higher meat prices soon, about April or so. Poor expatriate will have to shell out more money for his baloney sandwiches :rofl:

I don't buy enthanol fuel unless I absolutely have to. I just play the charade of pulling up to the pump, pulling the 5 gal. can out of the back of my pickup then filling up with non-oxy gas. I don't know if the clerk knows or cares that I got 30-plus gals. Of gas in that can. At present it's about a 65 cent difference but I do get better power and fuel mileage.

Posted by Expatriate on Nov. 27 2012,8:27 am

(Self-Banished @ Nov. 27 2012,7:53 am)
QUOTE
. Poor expatriate will have to shell out more money for his baloney sandwiches :rofl:

I don’t like ethanol or baloney!
Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 27 2012,8:44 am
^ Really? I thought you belonged to a union. :rofl:
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 27 2012,8:48 am
Hormel posted record profits for FY'12. A week later, they announced prices were going up, up, up.

I'm with SB. We don't need this idiotic subsidy.

Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 27 2012,10:25 am
It is so hard on seals in a fuel system.
Posted by Botto 82 on Nov. 27 2012,11:37 am
Makes for great car fire footage on the Metro news stations, though...  :D
Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 27 2012,12:53 pm
^ :rofl:
Posted by Moparman on Nov. 27 2012,3:01 pm

(Self-Banished @ Nov. 27 2012,7:53 am)
QUOTE
Oh joy, more farmer welfare. I think I saw corn at $8.65 this morning. This ought to raise food prices some more.

I talked to a farm manager this thanksgiving week, he figures we'll be seeing higher meat prices soon, about April or so. Poor expatriate will have to shell out more money for his baloney sandwiches :rofl:

I don't buy enthanol fuel unless I absolutely have to. I just play the charade of pulling up to the pump, pulling the 5 gal. can out of the back of my pickup then filling up with non-oxy gas. I don't know if the clerk knows or cares that I got 30-plus gals. Of gas in that can. At present it's about a 65 cent difference but I do get better power and fuel mileage.

And worth every penny! Let's use your very own way of thinking to say that farmers don't owe you a thing! Life's tough buttercup! If you don't like it go out secure a couple million (at least) and become a small farmer and grow your own.

Take away the subsidy let the growers set their own prices and sit back and see where food prices go.

Your farm manager buddy needs to get up speed. Meat prices have been rising of a quite some time now (this little thing called a drought is going on) and its pretty common knowledge that they are going to continue to increase in the future. Old news...

You do realize you can get fill up with any type of fuel the pump has available. You don't have to go all covert to try to fool the clerk. You could pump your tank full of diesel or kerosene for all he cares, as long as you pay or it.

Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 27 2012,3:49 pm

(Moparman @ Nov. 27 2012,3:01 pm)
QUOTE

(Self-Banished @ Nov. 27 2012,7:53 am)
QUOTE
Oh joy, more farmer welfare. I think I saw corn at $8.65 this morning. This ought to raise food prices some more.

I talked to a farm manager this thanksgiving week, he figures we'll be seeing higher meat prices soon, about April or so. Poor expatriate will have to shell out more money for his baloney sandwiches :rofl:

I don't buy enthanol fuel unless I absolutely have to. I just play the charade of pulling up to the pump, pulling the 5 gal. can out of the back of my pickup then filling up with non-oxy gas. I don't know if the clerk knows or cares that I got 30-plus gals. Of gas in that can. At present it's about a 65 cent difference but I do get better power and fuel mileage.

And worth every penny! Let's use your very own way of thinking to say that farmers don't owe you a thing! Life's tough buttercup! If you don't like it go out secure a couple million (at least) and become a small farmer and grow your own.

Take away the subsidy let the growers set their own prices and sit back and see where food prices go.

Your farm manager buddy needs to get up speed. Meat prices have been rising of a quite some time now (this little thing called a drought is going on) and its pretty common knowledge that they are going to continue to increase in the future. Old news...

You do realize you can get fill up with any type of fuel the pump has available. You don't have to go all covert to try to fool the clerk. You could pump your tank full of diesel or kerosene for all he cares, as long as you pay or it.

You seem to forget that I grew up on a real farm, not some grain farmer that takes half the year off. When I was farming with my Dad we never took any subsidies, not one. As far as my farm manager buddy goes, he's been doing many years. His philosophy is"the public thinks it's paying alot for fuel, wait till the food prices hit" I have to agree with him.

We're burning our food, plain and simple. Middle class will get squeezed, the poor? Well Obama just might have to bump their food stamps quite a bit.

So when does this drought end??? Since we don't know why do we want to increase the crops we use for fuel.

By the way, the damned clerks at the place I fuel won't turn on the pump if I put the nozzle in my truck. I'd go somewhere else but these places are few.

Posted by White Pride on Nov. 27 2012,4:14 pm
E15 will run just fine in all fuel injected cars.  It's not recommended on 2-cycle engines, small engines, or motorcycles though, ethanol is not good for these engines since they can't compensate for the different burning characteristics of the fuel.  I've been running E30 and sometimes E40 in my car for about 3 years now.  Mileage difference is negligible.  I burn E85 in my 92 F150 on long trips, unless I am hauling, then I have one tank E10 (standard unleaded) and one E85.  The standard unleaded offers more power when towing 6000 pounds up to speed, but once up to speed I switch to E85. That has been burning E85 since Albert Lea got it.  

As far as it harming the fuel system components... whether it's 30% or the standard 10%, the concentration doesn't matter, the ethanol is still there, still affecting the fuel system in the same way, which is negligible.  Fuel injection rated hoses are built for this.  

One nice thing about having ethanol blended fuel is that you don't need to buy those cans of gasoline de-icer anymore!  It's included in the price!

Posted by Moparman on Nov. 27 2012,4:25 pm
Grain farmers take half the year off? That's a good one! You have been off the "real farm" for quite some time I see. Is the winter workload lighter? Sure it is,but I never really stops.

About 23 to 28% of the corn cop is used for ethanol production and about 1/3 of that is converted to huh quality livestock feed. Any anyway we are not burning food we are utilizing a commodity nothing more nothing less. Remember farmers don't owe you anything. They can market their product however they want.

I have never, ever, not once, had a clerk refuse to turn on a pump no matter where I stick my nozzle. I'm guessing your at a prepay pump lifing the handle up and down cursing out the clerk! I have seen that plenty of times.  :rofl:

Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 27 2012,6:30 pm
Not gonna spend too much time on this pissin' match but you said once that all you folks did was grain. I envied this type of farmer. At least you had some time off. We had grain plus livestock, mostly dairy cows. Twice a day 365.

As far as the gas goes, you live in po'dunk land. They probably don't care.

Posted by Moparman on Nov. 27 2012,7:23 pm
Oh ya! Cuz dem big city folks care so much!  :dunce:

Please spare me your big city superiority garbage!

Now I know why everyone thought those dairy farm kids were weird growing up! :p

Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 28 2012,5:04 am
^yeah, we were. :rofl:
Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 28 2012,5:22 am
Oh c'mon, it's po'dunk land, you folks even have retired sheriff Andy with a glandular problem. :D
Posted by pepi-lapew on Nov. 29 2012,9:51 am
My 2010 runs on E85, but I dont beleive its good for my car. Less gas milage.
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Nov. 29 2012,10:50 am
I was talking the other day to a guy who feeds out beef cattle.  He was complaining about the cost of corn to feed his cattle, even though he grows it.  I asked about the feed by-products from the ethanol plant to feed the beef.  He said they will eat it, but they do not like it, so it takes longer to feed them out. Every day longer it takes to get them to market he loses money.

He said , of the stuff, it would be like having Honey Nut Cheerios and then having to eat generic plain cheerios.

And, Yes I agree.  If you do not have livestock, you are no longer a farmer, just a big gardener. :D

Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 29 2012,12:17 pm
^ oh you're going straight to "Moparman Hell" for that statement. :blush:
Posted by Moparman on Nov. 29 2012,3:55 pm

(Pretzel Logic @ Nov. 29 2012,10:50 am)
QUOTE
I was talking the other day to a guy who feeds out beef cattle.  He was complaining about the cost of corn to feed his cattle, even though he grows it.  I asked about the feed by-products from the ethanol plant to feed the beef.  He said they will eat it, but they do not like it, so it takes longer to feed them out. Every day longer it takes to get them to market he loses money.

He said , of the stuff, it would be like having Honey Nut Cheerios and then having to eat generic plain cheerios.

And, Yes I agree.  If you do not have livestock, you are no longer a farmer, just a big gardener. :D

No I'm not upset. Pretzel is not have enough knowledge on the subject to really have any meaningful input. All his information and statements always come from what  "some guy I know" says....  :dunce:

I have actually fed distillers grains to livestock. They LOVED it.

Just make sure you thank those "gardeners" everyday for feeding and clothing you, your entire family, and well everyone else.

Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 29 2012,4:13 pm
So when you go out gardening do you wear the big floppy hat??? :D
Posted by Pretzel Logic on Nov. 29 2012,4:59 pm

(Moparman @ Nov. 29 2012,3:55 pm)
QUOTE

(Pretzel Logic @ Nov. 29 2012,10:50 am)
QUOTE
I was talking the other day to a guy who feeds out beef cattle.  He was complaining about the cost of corn to feed his cattle, even though he grows it.  I asked about the feed by-products from the ethanol plant to feed the beef.  He said they will eat it, but they do not like it, so it takes longer to feed them out. Every day longer it takes to get them to market he loses money.

He said , of the stuff, it would be like having Honey Nut Cheerios and then having to eat generic plain cheerios.

And, Yes I agree.  If you do not have livestock, you are no longer a farmer, just a big gardener. :D

No I'm not upset. Pretzel is not have enough knowledge on the subject to really have any meaningful input. All his information and statements always come from what  "some guy I know" says...  :dunce:

I have actually fed distillers grains to livestock. They LOVED it.

Just make sure you thank those "gardeners" everyday for feeding and clothing you, your entire family, and well everyone else.

It must hurt to keep that all encompassing brain under that helmet :p

You should really get a grasp the of the English language before you start on me. :;):

And I suppose I should take the word of "some guy" meaning" you", versus a farmer who produces beef for a living meaning him. :dunce:

I do like them carrots!

Posted by Moparman on Nov. 29 2012,6:09 pm
I know this guy who makes his living commenting on discussion forums and he told me that people who judge a persons intelligence based on if they miss an auto correct error are really trying to hide the fact that they lack any meaningful input.

He does it for a living. So it must be true! Just saying....

Nice try though!

Posted by Pretzel Logic on Nov. 29 2012,7:05 pm
Your intellect is dizzying. :dunce:

Is that meaningful enough for you.

Quit wearing your feelings on your sleeve.  It is not all about you. Just saying, Nice try though.

Back to the topic.

I think the push to up the limits comes more from the ethanol lobby than from anything else.  Let it stand on its own as a viable product or let it go.  We should not be forced to subsidize it and then be forced to buy it.

Posted by Moparman on Nov. 30 2012,7:12 pm
So what happens when the oil runs out? It will someday, you do realize that, don't you? What are we going to replace it with? Maybe we should just wait until the supply starts to dwindle to worry about it. Unfortunatly that will be way to late. Or maybe we should bet on some future technological breakthrough to save us.
We need to keep improving the technology and infrastructure for a non petroleum liquid fuel source now. This is going to take a long time due to big oil and short sighted dunderheads doing everything possible to jeopardize our energy future.

Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 01 2012,6:05 am
^ dunderheads?
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 01 2012,7:33 am
This is why there's a big push to go to war with Iran right now. It isn't about nukes, my friends - it's about an Iranian oil bourse, set up to trade in rials and yuans and rubles - anything BUT petrodollars. And that has some powerful folks worried.
Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 01 2012,8:13 am
Or so you think^
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 01 2012,8:31 am
No, or so history and available knowledge dictate.
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 01 2012,8:37 am
QUOTE
So, while Washington prepares to commit political hara-kiri, Iran is preparing to take away a little of the capitalist glow from New York and London. If the Chinese decide to start paying for their Iranian purchases strictly in yuan, expect the trickle away from the dollar in energy pricing to become a stampede. That ought to give Washington politicos an issue to think about besides gay marriage.

By. John C.K. Daly of OilPrice.com


You don't think this will drive our foreign policy decisions regarding Iran?

Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 01 2012,8:49 am
I'm sure it will but the constant lamenting over this is pointless, we've made our bed, and now we're going to have lie in it.
Posted by Botto 82 on Dec. 01 2012,9:08 am
Yeah, and that 'bed' is World War III, as China and Russia have made it perfectly clear that they will not stand for an invasion of Iran.

But you're right. I don't expect much resistance from a bunch of sheep more concerned with what they're buying their kids for Christmas than the future of their country.

These are the good old days. Enjoy them while they last...

Posted by Pretzel Logic on Dec. 01 2012,9:22 am
Moparman, I agree with what you just said. I just do not believe in it having to be a mandate.  The problem with mandates is you end up having people making a lot of money off of it with out being a part of the equation.

If the market dictated that  15% was needed then so be it.  Not by mandate.   If there is not an economical advantage against the competitve product, why would anyone buy it unless by force.

Posted by Moparman on Dec. 02 2012,8:47 pm
For the same reason they mandated that lead be removed from fuel. If we waited until market forces dictated a change it would never happen until its to late. To much interference from big oil, car companies, etc.

As far as the wrong people making money any dollar that stays here instead of heading to some foreign country is a good thing. In this global enonomy that just makes economic sense. Remember the competitive product is running out little by little everyday.

Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 03 2012,5:40 am
^ eventually oil will be depleted, my great great great grandchildren will probably be lamenting that fact but then they'll be burning natural gas and coal. This ethanol thing is nothing more than a scam to get money to the farmers.

Look at the money that's being spent there, $21900 an acre in Iowa in October!

Yep Moparman, there's no money in farming. :sarcasm:

Posted by Pretzel Logic on Dec. 03 2012,5:06 pm
Come on,  tell me your not really trying to equate the removal of lead from gas to the addition of ethanol are you?
Posted by Moparman on Dec. 03 2012,7:31 pm

(Self-Banished @ Dec. 03 2012,5:40 am)
QUOTE
^ eventually oil will be depleted, my great great great grandchildren will probably be lamenting that fact but then they'll be burning natural gas and coal. This ethanol thing is nothing more than a scam to get money to the farmers.

Look at the money that's being spent there, $21900 an acre in Iowa in October!

Yep Moparman, there's no money in farming. :sarcasm:

The average is about $6700 per acre. The land your talking about is in northwestern Iowa where a handful of very big growers are in a pi$$ing contest for acres. So this is an extreme isolated situation.

The real scam is allowing so much money to flow out of this country to import oil.

Coal and natural gas have a their place but not as a replacement for liquid fuels.

Posted by Moparman on Dec. 03 2012,7:35 pm

(Pretzel Logic @ Dec. 03 2012,5:06 pm)
QUOTE
Come on,  tell me your not really trying to equate the removal of lead from gas to the addition of ethanol are you?

Yes, as a mandate.
Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 04 2012,4:40 am

(Moparman @ Dec. 03 2012,7:31 pm)
QUOTE

(Self-Banished @ Dec. 03 2012,5:40 am)
QUOTE
^ eventually oil will be depleted, my great great great grandchildren will probably be lamenting that fact but then they'll be burning natural gas and coal. This ethanol thing is nothing more than a scam to get money to the farmers.

Look at the money that's being spent there, $21900 an acre in Iowa in October!

Yep Moparman, there's no money in farming. :sarcasm:

The average is about $6700 per acre. The land your talking about is in northwestern Iowa where a handful of very big growers are in a pi$$ing contest for acres. So this is an extreme isolated situation.

The real scam is allowing so much money to flow out of this country to import oil.

Coal and natural gas have a their place but not as a replacement for liquid fuels.

Pretty big pissing match ???  I agree, the money going out of this country for oil is sinful, especially when we have so much oil here. We're going to see more of these pissing matches, corn prices the way they are will ensure it.

Will this be our next bubble?

Posted by irisheyes on Dec. 04 2012,5:45 am
I've got no problem with E10, but I'm not a fan of using more than that.  If someone wants to use more, so be it, I don't care for mandates above E10 though.  Moparman has a point though about mandates.  Many of the improvements we've seen in automotive wouldn't have happened if it was left to market conditions.  The switch to a universal OBDii system in 1996, higher emissions and mileage standards, using R-134a refrigerant versus R-12, etc.

That being said, I'm a much bigger fan of the electric vehicles than anything else.  Best for efficiency and emissions.  We'll need something like ethanol though either way for the rest of us still driving gas engines, at least in E10.  You can't use 100% pure gasoline, and the previous alternatives are banned.  It's been a while since I've researched this though, so feel free to correct me on this second paragraph.

Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 04 2012,6:22 am
^ you missed earlier posts, I run non-ethanol gas in my personal vehicles, better mileage and power. Ethanol is so hard on an engine, higher temps a propensity for predetonation and it eats away at seals in your fuel delivery system.

Of course the gov. doesn't care, I remember when they dropped the sulfur content in diesel, replacing fuel pumps at $1500 a pop. :angry:

Posted by Moparman on Dec. 04 2012,7:39 am
Maybe (a big maybe) if your vehicle is 20+ years old. And alcohol burns cooler than gasoline.
Posted by Moparman on Dec. 04 2012,7:45 am

(Self-Banished @ Dec. 04 2012,4:40 am)
QUOTE

(Moparman @ Dec. 03 2012,7:31 pm)
QUOTE

(Self-Banished @ Dec. 03 2012,5:40 am)
QUOTE
^ eventually oil will be depleted, my great great great grandchildren will probably be lamenting that fact but then they'll be burning natural gas and coal. This ethanol thing is nothing more than a scam to get money to the farmers.

Look at the money that's being spent there, $21900 an acre in Iowa in October!

Yep Moparman, there's no money in farming. :sarcasm:

The average is about $6700 per acre. The land your talking about is in northwestern Iowa where a handful of very big growers are in a pi$$ing contest for acres. So this is an extreme isolated situation.

The real scam is allowing so much money to flow out of this country to import oil.

Coal and natural gas have a their place but not as a replacement for liquid fuels.

Pretty big pissing match ???  I agree, the money going out of this country for oil is sinful, especially when we have so much oil here. We're going to see more of these pissing matches, corn prices the way they are will ensure it.

Will this be our next bubble?

These guys did the same thing last year when they paid a then record price of $20,000 an acre.
Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 04 2012,9:14 am
^ this is how trends are started.
Posted by Expatriate on Dec. 04 2012,12:37 pm
AAA Urges Halt on Sale of E15 Gasoline Blend

< http://online.wsj.com/article...86.html >

Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 04 2012,1:27 pm

(Moparman @ Dec. 04 2012,7:39 am)
QUOTE
Maybe (a big maybe) if your vehicle is 20+ years old. And alcohol burns cooler than gasoline.

I trade pickups every three years, the one I drive now is about a year old.
Posted by Moparman on Dec. 04 2012,3:05 pm
Then you have nothing to worry about.
Posted by Moparman on Dec. 04 2012,3:08 pm
I have a old 96 work truck never had an issue what so ever.
Posted by Self-Banished on Dec. 04 2012,3:12 pm
Fuel mileage sucks with ethanol
Posted by Moparman on Dec. 04 2012,3:15 pm

(Self-Banished @ Dec. 04 2012,9:14 am)
QUOTE
^ this is how trends are started.

The recent tract was 80 acres the previous one was only 74 acres. All in the same county and all bid on by the same groups of buyers. Hardly a trend.
Posted by MADDOG on Nov. 16 2013,5:31 pm
Interesting how it seems to be coming full circle.  I notice a few letters to the editor complaining about an investigative story the AP came out with on < the secret environmental cost of U. S. ethanol policy. >

Why would these three < good > < conservative > < republicans > be writing letters to the editor complaining about bad rap on ethanol?

It must be a need to read article.  
QUOTE
But the ethanol era has proven far more damaging to the environment than politicians promised and much worse than the government admits today.
 
QUOTE
The consequences are so severe that environmentalists and many scientists have now rejected corn-based ethanol as bad environmental policy.
 There'a more.  
QUOTE
The government's predictions of the benefits have proven so inaccurate that independent scientists question whether it will ever achieve its central environmental goal: reducing greenhouse gases. That makes the hidden costs even more significant.
 
QUOTE
"This is an ecological disaster,"
 And don't forget we have the most open government ever.  
QUOTE
"It just caught us completely off guard," said Doug Davenport, a Department of Agriculture official who encourages southern Iowa farmers to use conservation practices on their land. Despite those efforts, Davenport said he was surprised at how much fragile, erodible land was turned into corn fields.

Shortly after Davenport spoke to The Associated Press, he got an email ordering him to stop talking.


Have you noticed how much lower in price ethanol has gotten over regular non-leaded?

Posted by Self-Banished on Nov. 16 2013,8:41 pm
Probably the only smart thing bummer has done


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