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Topic: This is not climate change< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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Rosalind_Swenson Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2012,9:03 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Santorini, when I have talked about our land, water and air being poisoned, I'm not talking about climate change. That is an area I tried to keep us out of. I had given up on that debate long ago because of people like you. I let myself finally get sucked back into it with you after I realized how much more info there was on it since the last time I attempted. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways, I will not let it happen again. So, that said, back to my original line of talk on the actual poisoning of land, water and air. There are whole towns that are becoming dangerously toxic. Whole towns that have to have water shipped in to them because theirs is not safe. There are whole towns where the air and land are toxic and have obscene rates of lung problems, cancers, birth defects, many many more problems because of what is going on near those towns. I'm not going to give you any links, because it is clear to me exactly what that will lead to. So please do internet searches on:
Dimock Pennsylvania water poisoned by fracking
Pavillion Wyoming water poisoned by fracking
Colstrip Montana poisoned by coal
The Berkley Pit of Montana
Libby Montana asbestos poisoning
Massey Energy Slurry Flood
West Anniston Creek chemical dumping
Tennessee Valley Authority Fossil Plant Kingston Tennessee 2008
There are many many manyyyyyyyy more instances of all of these problems all over the US. These are just a few.
Honestly I am not trying to depress anyone or scare the crap out of them. I'm trying to wake people up to the fact that our government works right with some of the biggest corporations, and if that doesn't stop, it's our kids and grandkids who will suffer most. And if we don't start changing some things, it is also our kids and grandkids who will pay the price. Sure we have alot of problems in government, and there are alot of things that need changing, I tend to focus on the environment type stuff. I was born a tree hugging eco-nut. Anyone who says the environmentalists are trying to destroy the economy better think again.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2012,9:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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Anyone who says the environmentalists are trying to destroy the economy better think again.

 I don't know of anyone saying "the environmentalists are TRYING to destroy the economy."  Do you? :dunno:

There are all kinds of wrongs done by all kinds of believers.  Environmentalists have no hold on being correct--I would submit that as often as not, they end up being wrong.  Remembere the Alar scare with apples?  The scare that cranberries were somehow poisoned?  The "snail darter" fiasco?  The "spotted owl" that devestated western timber harvest (and was later found not to be a separate species)?  The "Alaska pipeline will disrupt migrating caribou" lie?  Is it any wonder that people find many environmental claims to be yet another case of "The sky is Falling!" hysteria?

Work in "environmentalism" does NOT have to mean "we're never going to allow change to happen."

And politicians throwing money at unworkable "green" programs just because you THINK it might work isn't the answer, either.  

People disparage "Greed is good" in the movie--but it should be taken in full context--that people act in self-interest, and that can be GOOD.  Example:  Apple Computers--they didn't build that company just to make computers available, they did it to make money--and created entire industries and spin-offs employing hundreds of thousands of people.

If power companies thought that solar, wind, pond scum, or any other far-out technologies were viable, they would have invested in them.  They didn't though, did they?  The government did--and lost billions.


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Rosalind_Swenson Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2012,10:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

jimhanson: I don't know of anyone saying "the environmentalists are TRYING to destroy the economy."  Do you?
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Me: Um yeah. All the regulations and restrictions are their fault right? Making jobs go overseas? Making things more expensive?
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As for the rest of your comment....what the hell are you talking about? If power companies thought alternatives were viable?? They want to keep control of it all so they keep getting money from us. If the focus was smaller homesized energy sources the power companies would be left out. I honestly don't know how anyone wants to keep heading down the road we are on. Especially when we DO have alternatives that DO work. Each of us would have to be alot more frugal with how they use their energy for sure, but so what. We as individuals would have to do alot of changing, but so what. Are we that selfish that we can't look critically at exactly what we are doing and make things right? How can you honestly check into those places I mentioned and ....goodgod why am I even trying to discuss anything with you.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2012,12:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Rosalind_Swenson @ Mar. 08 2012,10:22 pm)
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what the hell are you talking about?

:thumbsup:  :clap:  :rofl: Thats why I use to call him The Mumbler :O
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2012,11:54 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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jimhanson: I don't know of anyone saying "the environmentalists are TRYING to destroy the economy."  Do you?
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Me: Um yeah. All the regulations and restrictions are their fault right? Making jobs go overseas? Making things more expensive?


I'll ask AGAIN--WHO is saying "Environmentalists are TRYING to destroy the economy?" :dunno:

Since you brought it up, though, Is there any question that the increased regulations and regulatory costs drive business overseas?  You don't see a lot of overseas companies relocating HERE to save regulatory costs! :p

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If power companies thought alternatives were viable?? They want to keep control of it all so they keep getting money from us.
 Again, where is your evidence that "they want to keep control so they keep getting money from us"?

Don't you think that these companies would automatically select solar or wind power if it were cheaper and more efficient than the power they are producing from other sources?  That's the way the world works.  Despite all of the libbie wishful thinking, and 100 BILLION of OUR dollars, it hasn't worked here, or anywhere else in the world without even MORE tax subsidies.  Failure of a program has never kept a libbie from insisting that we keep trying it over and over, though. :rofl:

That's the problem with libbie "thinking"--they seem to believe that they can make things more efficient by simply MANDATING them! :rofl:

I'll file your claim that they are keeping for themselves alongside the nutcases that opine that "someone invented a carburetor that runs on water, but Detroit bought up the patent so it can't be used"

OR

"___company wanted to come to Albert Lea, but "they" kept them out." :rofl:


Kind of like the foolish King commanding the ocean waves to stop--just because he SAID so. :rofl:

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If the focus was smaller homesized energy sources the power companies would be left out.
 Have YOU bought a wind or solar unit yet?  If not, WHY NOT?  Might it be that THE PRODUCT THEY PRODUCE ISN'T COMPETITIVELY PRICED? :p

If you believe the process has a future, why don't you invest every cent you can get your hands on in one of the companies?  After all, the stock is pretty cheap now, what with all of the bankruptcies of failed Obama0subsidized companies! :rofl:

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goodgod why am I even trying to discuss anything with you.
 That's OK, Rosalind.  Get your facts together, and try again after you think things through.  In the meantime, get a "group hug" from OTHER "true believers." :grouphug:


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2012,11:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's all about money.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2012,12:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Leave it to the libbies to trumpet recent events as "proof" of LONG TERM CLIMATE CHANGE. :rofl:

Tell us, what temperature is the earth "supposed" to be? :dunno:   The temperature of the ice age 10,000 years ago?  The temperature in the Middle Ages?  I especially enjoyed the picture of Owlgore showing that the retreating glacier had exposed evidence of Viking habitation in Greenland 1000 years ago.  Left unanswered is--"The land in Greenland must have been much WARMER then, 1000 years ago!" :rofl:

How about the temperature in 1900--before all of these awful automobiles and other internal combustion engines?  If THIS is your measure, how much has the earth warmed?  Answer--after correcting the discredited "hockey stick graph" that OwlGore used--7/10 of a degree. :laugh:

If the earth was indeed consistently warming, and it is MAN-CAUSED--why are record COLDS being recorded--like this VERY SAME YEAR in Europe?

Have you forgotten that the earth has COOLED for the last 13 years?  

Locally, have you forgotten the winters of the last 3 years?

7/10 of one degree globally.  Scientists look for other errors.  One possible error is that there used to be a lot more weather stations in the world keeping records than there are now--and they relied on someone looking at a mercury thermometer.  Today, we have fewer weather stations, and they tend to be electronic--much more accurate.

Weather stations USED to be located outside the metropolitan areas.  Today, they are usually located on airports.  Not only are airports now surrounded by metropolitan areas and their associated "heat shields" (ever notice that temperatures in the metro areas are colder than rural areas?) but they are also located in the middle of a thousand acres of airport pavement.  Do you suppose that has anything to do with the results?

To combat this, extremely precise satellite observations over the oceans are made--their results show even SMALLER deviations than the 7/10 of 1 %.

Of course, if there is no "problem", Big-Government hypers can't offer their SOLUTIONS--and no money for "research" or "AlGore."

Is it any wonder that they have ginned up the "sky-is-falling" alarmists?


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2012,6:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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Leave it to the libbies to trumpet recent events as "proof" of LONG TERM CLIMATE CHANGE. :rofl:


I'm with you on this, only a complete and total moron would confuse short term weather changes with climate change. :dunce:


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Have you forgotten that the earth has COOLED for the last 13 years?  

How about a link?

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Locally, have you forgotten the winters of the last 3 years?

Like I said, "Only a complete and total moron would confuse short term weather changes with climate change". :dunce:


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2012,10:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(jimhanson @ Mar. 08 2012,9:13 pm)
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Anyone who says the environmentalists are trying to destroy the economy better think again.

 I don't know of anyone saying "the environmentalists are TRYING to destroy the economy."  Do you? :dunno:

Jim-
QUOTE
I'll ask AGAIN--WHO is saying "Environmentalists are TRYING to destroy the economy?


Not to pick on Self-Banished, but this post was made only a day before Rosalind started this topic.

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What I'm trying to say Roz is hat there is so much info out there on both sides that it would be senseless to ruin our economy over a "theory.


So obviously there are some who believe or even talk about it "ruining our economy".  And it's understandable to worry about both sides of the issue:  the economy and the environment when talking about this topic.

QUOTE
Since you brought it up, though, Is there any question that the increased regulations and regulatory costs drive business overseas?  You don't see a lot of overseas companies relocating HERE to save regulatory costs!


No, the idea that they move overseas so they can pay their workers a dollar an hour or have children working in sweatshops is a bigger indicator.  You think big companies are scared of regulators, I'd say it's the other way around considering the big companies own the politicians that oversee those agencies.

The CEO of Gallup recently did a Q&A at the Governors Association meeting.  It was interesting he kept bringing up how businesses kept claiming how scared they were of regulations, but when asked they can't really think of what regulations they're concerned about.  It's usually the GOP, FOX, Rush, or Breitbart (I'm being redundant here) telling them what to think.  When asked they have to wait until FOX tells them the answer of what specific regulations.

One only has to watch C-SPAN coverage briefly to see how often repubs and business owners want government HELP to cut taxes, increase subsidies, or start new regulations that will help their bottom line.  Only for the same people to then complain about how complicated and lengthy the tax code is after they get their new credits and loopholes.

Even locally you always hear many businesses, farmers, and politicians talk about the need for MORE regulations regarding ethanol use.  I was reading the paper a while ago where someone from the ethanol industry wanted new blender pumps, naturally the answer was:  government regulations.  So no, I gave up believing that businesses don't like regulations.  They LOVE the ones that make money for them and decrease their tax burden.  If it increases their operating costs instead, they'll claim it's socialist, communist, or tell you that's what the Nazis did.   :oops:


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 10 2012,12:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Self-Banished says
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What I'm trying to say Roz is hat there is so much info out there on both sides that it would be senseless to ruin our economy over a "theory.

and from that Rosalind and Irish translate that into "liberal-speak" as  
QUOTE
Anyone who says the environmentalists are trying to destroy the economy better think again.
 One more time--I don't know anybody that has made that claim--SB was only saying that many of the "environmentalist" claims are only theoretical.  "Environmentalists" don't exactly have a good record on their "Sky-is-falling" hysteria. :p

Jim--
QUOTE
Since you brought it up, though, Is there any question that the increased regulations and regulatory costs drive business overseas?  You don't see a lot of overseas companies relocating HERE to save regulatory costs!


Irish--
QUOTE
No, the idea that they move overseas so they can pay their workers a dollar an hour or have children working in sweatshops is a bigger indicator.


Yes--wages are lower in other countries--but so is their cost of living.  Wages are only PART of the difference, though--and not as much as most libbies would make them out to be.  A few weeks ago on Cavuto, a guest explained  (Paraphrase) "Yes, it is an average of 40% cheaper to manufacture overseas--but the labor savings are only 20%.  If you backed out the labor difference ENTIRELY, it is still 20% cheaper to manufacture overseas due to the cost of doing business in the U.S."

Here's the link to his book. My Webpage  Note the title of the book--and the subtitle--"How the left created the outsourcing crisis, and how we can fix it." :laugh:

Knowing the hatred libbies have for Fox news, I backed up the claim.  nullMy Webpage

QUOTE
Labor costs are typically about 30% of total costs, for products produced in the U.S. Thus, labor savings on their face can save a manufacturer 24-26% of total production cost in China, and about 12-14% of total production cost in Mexico. But labor costs are not the entire issue! The manufacturer still has to get the product to market, reliably over the entire product life cycle.



I'd say those numbers corroborated the initial claim.

It's a horrible indictment of our system, when you can produce goods overseas, put up with foreign language and practice problems, bring them halfway around the world, and STILL be cheaper than our bloated system here at home.  Even giving away the 20% savings in labor, our cost of doing business is still 20% higher due to taxes, regulation, insurance, and the resultant legal fees. :p

As for me--I'm going to visit the Euroweenies in France, Germany, and Austria(again).  I'll re-visit Normandy, the Somme, Verdun, Bastogne, the Rhine, Nuremburg, Munich, Dachau, and Berchtesgarten--all places where Americans saved the Europeans from themselves.  The Europeans are giving a great example of how NOT to do Socialism (Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain) if only the Obamunists would learn the lesson.

The Obamunists want to drag us down to the European level--big government, low productivity, small military, high taxes, socialized medicine, tiny apartments, tiny cars, sky-high fuel prices.  No wonder the Europeans spend so much time eating and drinking well--it's the cheapest entertainment they have left!

We call our group the "Bottomfeeders" because we travel cheap--meaning that we have to go in October, November, or March.  Our goal has always been $1000 for air and hotel for 9 days"--and we have been able to do that until now (the Euro's have instituted their version of "Cap and Trade"--increasing air travel costs).  The rooms are still cheap, though, and most of them are pretty nice.  Eating and drinking costs have actually gone DOWN in the last 3 years due to the worldwide recession (how did George Bush get a recession started in THOSE countries?) :sarcasm:  :laugh:  so we ameliorate the higher airfares by spreading them out over more days.  We should still be able to do the air, hotel, trains, car, gas, musems, moderate food (we will splurge for a couple of special meals, I'm sure) for about $100 a day--hard to do that in the U.S.!

I love visiting Europe, but I love coming back home even more.  I'll be back in the office by April 1.


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