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Tiger 
Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Aug. 22 2003,9:12 am |
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There was a poll on http://www.cnn.com asking:
Should the US give up political or military control of Iraq to the United Nations? I thought it would be fun to hear your opinions.
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| Post Number: 2
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Aug. 22 2003,10:47 am |
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And just WHO is the U.N.? The people that haven't been able to EVER do a real "peacekeeping" force in their 56 year history? Can you name one of their successes? Korea? Cambodia? Uganda?
And just WHERE will the U.N. get the "muscle" to enforce the peace? The U.S. is on top of the call list--and we're already there! Great Britain? Already there! Should we hand it over to that military powerhouse, the French--the same people that were circumventing the U.N. embargo against Iraq? Same for the Russians? Perhaps Gambia, Chad, or Liberia (no, they don't even have a president any more). How about Libya--head of the Human Rights Council (they deposed the U.S.)--THEY would be a good choice, now that they have fessed up to bombing Pan Am (their "settlement" was less than the value of the airline they put out of business after surviving for 75 years). Maybe Paraguay will help, if a way could be found to get their few soldiers across the water. Iran--they've always had a desire for Iraq territory.
No , the U.N. is an ineffective, toothless debating society, a soapbox for third-world dictators to make proclamations from, a "feel-good", "we're all one world" balm for liberals.
But, that's only MY opinion! (smilie)
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Aug. 22 2003,12:13 pm |
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Jim, but how do you really feel about the UN? LOL. Just kidding  I pretty much agree with you. Although I wanted this war to be fought by the UN in the first place, now that we are losing American soldiers everyday, I'll be damned if I would let anyone else take over.
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 4
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KODIAK
Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Aug. 22 2003,12:56 pm |
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Good subject Tiger. The U.N. has lost its meaning, and is at the mercy of red tape and political correctness.....therefore will never quit driving in circles for the rest of its life.
So play the tape on fast forward.......what to do? Does this police force we are training have a chance, or will they be bought off the instant we get back on the ships? I think our presence has to be neccessary for a long time, don't like it, but don't see another way out either. Its gonna take a long time before the correct (read that as non-corrupt) hierachy is established. Even after that, think through what must be going through Iran's mind at the same time, sorta like a lamb staked out in Wolf territory.
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"Dyin ain't much of a living.....boy" Clint (Outlaw Josie Wales)
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Bubba
Group: Members
Posts: 94
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Aug. 29 2003,5:33 pm |
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With the cost in money and human life escalating, order descentagrating, and no one finding the W.O.M.D. our administration looks alittle flat footed. Maybe Bush will get this back on track now that his vacation is ending.
This week, Donald H. Rumsfeld, who has been defending every aspect of his post-Saddam plan for Iraq, has acknowledged some shortfalls but prefers to call them "unforeseeable circumstances." Who is he kidding.
Asked whether conditions in Iraq were deteriorating, defense secretary Rumsfeld said, "With respect to the planning that took place, it began well before there was a decision to go to war. It was extensive. Like any planning, once you hit reality, the plan needs to be adjusted and modified." You know I believe him, I believe the team had an unspoken agenda to go to war with Iraq long before Bush was elected. Too bad they never clued the rest of us in.
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| Post Number: 6
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Aug. 29 2003,7:03 pm |
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Who's the team? How did they get together without the Pres.? Did Bush have this team in place before the election? How far back?
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 7
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Aug. 30 2003,10:25 am |
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In my opinion, as long as it is a military situation in Iraq, Don Rumsfeld and people like Carl Rowe should stay the hell out and leave it up to the military to take care of things. When the military gets things settled, then the politicians can have a go at it. In my opinion though, that is a long way down the road, if ever. Iraq has basically became Palestine and Isreal with its car bombs and such. I dont really believe that our military will ever be able to completly leave the country now that we have gone in. I also dont believe we will ever find WOMD, not that he didnt have them at one time, but I think they are long gone if they were there in the first place. I was against the war to start unless we had more international support, I mean, we have WOMD, we have used them, even on our own people. Ever heard of the military doing radiation tests I believe it was in the 50s or 60s? They flew military planes over South and North Dakota, Minnesota, and pretty much the upper midwest and dispersed radioactive material from their planes, then the government waited to see what effect it would have, on our own people. It was recently declassified, its true. But anyway, I changed my mind about the war when we went got into the capital and I seen the people whose families and friends have suffered under Saddam for far to long. My point is this, WOMD or not, the people of Iraq needed liberated from its government, I am now glad we did it, I just hope we are able to leave it to the Iraqi people and get out of there some day.
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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| Post Number: 8
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Bubba
Group: Members
Posts: 94
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 08 2003,2:09 pm |
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Boy am I releived, only another 87 Billion Dollars and we will have the problem licked! Those terroist are O so unwieldy, but we got'm on the ropes. Only another 87 Billion Dollars and I reckon they will be done for.
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| Post Number: 9
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 08 2003,2:59 pm |
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This is high-stakes poker. You can't show your hand, then bluff.
In Vietnam, Johnson blustered and threatened, but the N. Vietnamese knew that Congress and popular opinion wouldn't allow the war to continue--all they had to do is wait it out. When Nixon announced the U.S. withdrawal, the North Vietnamese knew the itinerary. Japanese business negotiations follow the same line--"when are you leaving? What is your flight schedule?" Far from being kind, they now know your schedule--your deadline. No negotiations will be undertaken until JUST before departure.
The Russians imploded because they saw that no matter what they spent, no matter what they did militarily, we were willing to oppose them--and they couldn't "ante up" to stay in the game, so they folded.
It would be wrong for us to set a self-imposed deadline for withdrawal--the insurgents would know that all they have to do is wait us out. That's the problem with early endings to conflict, THERE IS NO END. Look at our own Civil War--no formal surrender of the Confederacy--and people have been refighting it for 140 years! Same with every other "negotiated settlement" we've been involved with. Unless you FORCE the bad guys to the SURRENDER table, and make them sign an "OK, YOU WIN, I'LL BE GOOD" document, it never ends.
How DO we get out of Iraq? "Vietnamization"--turning the war over to the locals--didn't work in Vietnam, and won't work in Iraq. A sudden pullout would invite tribal squabbling all over again. Turn it over to the U.N.? That would be a major loss of U.S. credibility, and the U.S., as the U.N. "enforcer", would still be in the same position--but fighting as "blue helmets"--and controlled by foreign "generals" (political patronage), unfamiliar with our military resources and tactics. No, what is needed instead is a MacArthur-like "benevolent dictatorship" as the U.S. used in Japan and Germany--encouraging democracy, but hanging every bastard that took up a military arm against us.
I don't know why everybody is on such an accelerated timetable to get out of Iraq--we stayed in Japan for a couple of decades, we still have troops in Germany 58 years later, and it's been 50 years since the end of the Korean "conflict". Domestically, it's been 40 years of "fighting the war on poverty"--and we're not even close to winning that one--despite Billions of dollars spend--if you want to label something as "quagmire"--there's the best example!
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 10
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Bubba
Unregistered
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Posted on: Sep. 08 2003,7:13 pm |
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Thanks for the History lesson Jim. Quagmire is right, just hope the Billions hold out. From a guy who questioned the WOMD, and the need to go in, I don't think we have seen the end of this with just another 87 Billion. I thank the brain trusts of W, Rumsfeild, Chainey and Wolfowitz for putting us into Iraq when I didn't think we needed to go. I guess I felt the same about Vietnam back when Kennedy was starting to move us in that direction. Now Jim don't paint me pink, my blood is red as yours. I did serve in Vietnam, I just didn't believe in it anymore that I believe that we had a right to liberate Iraq with our great coalition of the mindless.
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