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Liberal 
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 09 2003,12:19 pm |
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Here is a quote from the County Administrator he is talking about charging inmates for spending time in jail. Which is alright to do as long as you don't do it as a form of punishment. If you do it as a form of punishment it violates the 5th amendment.
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"This is another slap of the hand of someone that commits a crime," Gabrielsen said. He said the payments will act as a deterrent.
Ron Gabrielsen
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here is an excerpt from an article on findlaw.com about the 5th amendment protection from double jeopardy.
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The clause speaks of being put in ''jeopardy of life or limb,'' which as derived from the common law, generally referred to the possibility of capital punishment upon conviction, but it is now settled that the clause protects with regard ''to every indictment or information charging a party with a known and defined crime or misdemeanor, whether at the common law or by statute.'' Despite the Clause's literal language, it can apply as well to sanctions that are civil in form if they clearly are applied in a manner that constitutes ''punishment". Ordinarily, however, civil in rem forfeiture proceedings may not be considered punitive for purposes of double jeopardy analysis
findlaw.com 5th amendment info
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It sure seems to me that we would be violating the inmates civil rights if we made them pay as a form of punishment like Gabrielsen is suggesting.
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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| Post Number: 2
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Tiger
Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 09 2003,12:22 pm |
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I agree, if he is calling it a slap of the hand then that sounds like punishment. However, I think it is a good idea and do agree that it would be a deterrent.
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| Post Number: 3
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Tiger
Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 09 2003,12:33 pm |
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I agree, if he is calling it a slap of the hand then that sounds like punishment. However, I think it is a good idea and do agree that it would be a deterrent.
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| Post Number: 4
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minnow
Group: Members
Posts: 2243
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 09 2003,12:35 pm |
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Yes...you can attempt to charge and collect from mostly poor people, but that might make it less secure for those of us in the public. Often folks need a hand up instead of a backhand.
Gabe just wants the inmates to offset the outrageous jail costs, in an attempt to escape criticism of the cost. Won't help much at all. Most inmates are indigent anyhow.
Most inmates are meth heads and drunks...
It's gonna take a jail 5 times that size if you wanna jail everyone of those home boy!
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| Post Number: 5
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Tiger
Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 09 2003,12:42 pm |
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Minnow, this isn't the first I have heard of a city playing around with this idea of charging inmates to stay. It isn't just AL's way of getting out of costs you puke!! Owatonna has been doing this and are changing a few things to make the system run more smoothly. It was on the news about 1 1/2 weeks ago!!!
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| Post Number: 6
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Liberal
Group: Moderator
Posts: 11451
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 09 2003,12:50 pm |
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Owatonna has been doing this and are changing a few things to make the system run more smoothly.
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That's fine if that's the reason for charging the money. But you can't use punishment as a reason to charge the money. Ron wants to punish people by charging them money to stay at his mansion. That's just not right!
Nobody has a right to punish people after the judge is through with them?
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The people are masters of both Congress and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it!
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jimhanson
Group: Moderator
Posts: 8491
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 09 2003,1:05 pm |
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I agree with charging the inmates a "per diem" fee, but it was incredibly stupid of Gabrielson to state that it is part of the punishment. Only the judicial system is empowered to set punishment, unless authorized by a specific bill (i.e. OSHA fines). If a judge fines someone convicted of a crime, plus jail time, THAT is the punishment, not costs added on by a local unit of government.
In this case, the prisoner has no choice--he can hardly bring his own food and bedding to the jail.
How was the figure arrived at? Given that we are going to have 10 or more NEW jailers, in addition to the old ones, what is the actual cost of supervision? I would guess it will be more than what is quoted. Is the figure variable depending on the number of inmates incarcerated on any given day?
Just HOW do they propose to collect this money? Can the prisoner declare bankruptcy and void the claim? Does he get jailed for non-payment, recreating "debtors prisons"?
Oh, the delicious irony--people both INSIDE and OUTSIDE the jail have NO SAY IN THE SIZE OR COST OF THE NEW JUDICIAL CENTER, BUT BOTH ARE FORCED TO PAY FOR IT! 
Edited by jimhanson on Sep. 09 2003,1:08 pm
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"If you want to anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a LIBERAL, tell him the TRUTH!"
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| Post Number: 8
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minnow
Group: Members
Posts: 2243
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 09 2003,1:17 pm |
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Whoever said crime(prohibition) doesn't pay? 
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MADDOG
Group: Moderator
Posts: 7821
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 09 2003,1:35 pm |
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I agree, Jim, there's no reason why an inmate can't pay at least part of his "cost of living" while there, but as Liberal shows, it cannot be part of the punishment.
Jim quote:
| Quote | | Only the judicial system is empowered to set punishment |
 Jim, since when has Gabrielson not empowered himself? 
The fine line here is how much, and if they don't pay, to turn them over to a collection agency and ruin their credit would be double jeapardy.
Ron's done it again, he's the "powers that be", I think not only do we need a sarcasm icon, but also one with a foot in its mouth! 
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Actually my wife is especially happy when my google check arrives each month. Thanks to douchbags like you, I get paid just for getting you worked up. -Liberal
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| Post Number: 10
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hoosier
Group: Members
Posts: 1476
Joined: Aug. 2003
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Posted on: Sep. 09 2003,1:42 pm |
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I would think that Gabrialsons bosses, the commissioners, would tell him to keep his mouth shut unless he clears it with the county attorney about legal issues. I also agree that charging them to stay is a good idea, but I also agree that Gabrialson and the sherriffs department cant decide that this is some sort of fine on top of what the judge dishes out. Will they ever be able to charge this fee now that Ronny has put his foot in his mouth? He has made it clear that this is to be part of the punishment. My guess is that the first inmate that wants to fight now will win, Gabrialson just seen to that. After going and reading the article myself, sounds like the jail administrator should have Gabes job, Westland made a lot more sence with his expectations of just how much money this would produce. Like Westland stated, it has actually cost other counties more to collect the fees than what the fees bring in, come on people, more deficit spending? And violating the 5th amendment? They might as well, the same group violates the 1st amendment as well.
Edited by hoosier on Sep. 09 2003,1:54 pm
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The power of accurate obsvervation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw
The devil begins with froth on the lips of an angel entering into battle for a holy and just cause. Grigory Pomerants
We have crossed the boundary that lies between Republic and Empire. Garet Garrett
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